Cracking the TB code a little? [Archive]

vineyridge

Dec. 15, 2008, 07:30 PM

I've been doing some research into the lines of TBs that have consistently produced jumping horses. And I've found something very interesting back in the very early days that is intriguing. There was a stallion named Buzzard, the son of Woodpecker, a son of Herod. Buzzard was bred four times to The Alexander Mare, and he produced three sons by her and a daughter. One son was Selim, who is the tail male sire of the Dollar line--Ksar, Tourbillon, et al. Another son, Castrel, is the tail male sire of the Le Sancy line--Roi Herode, The Tetrarch, Mumtaz Mahal, etc. Another son was Rubens, who appears in a lot of the early Aintree Grand National Winners through his daughters. The full sister of Selim, Castrel and Rubens was Bronze, who is tail female to Teddy, The Tetrarch, Peter Pan, and many others. HER daughter, The Clinker Mare, was bred to a son of Buzzard, Langar, and produced The Langar Mare, who is also in a lot of the early GN winners in the mare lines.

Teddy's sire's dam is Dollar sire line, so she goes back to one of the Buzzard/Alexander Mare sons. Teddy's sire was tail female to a Selim mare, so that's another line to Buzzard/Alexander Mare. To make this more modern, Teddy is the sireline for Jet Run, For The Moment, and the French Night and Day.

Although these horses date back to the very early 1800's, their lines have consistently produced horses that have the jump.

Another interesting bit of information is that Wild Risk is tail female to the Brutandorf Mare. She is sire line Blacklock, who is tail male sire to horses who won a very large percentage of the first Grand Nationals.

I know a lot of you don't think going back to the dawn of the breed is indicative of talent, but if jumping is as heritable as the Hanoverian Verband thinks it is, this information and correlating pedigrees with chasing results could lead to identifying lines that have a high probability of jumping talent when linebred top and bottom.

canyonoak

Dec. 15, 2008, 09:16 PM

Adding this post to my folder on TB breeding for sport.

thank you!

not again

Dec. 15, 2008, 09:50 PM

Great report! I helps me understand my grand old stallion's dam line:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10451664
No wonder every one of her foals were fabulous over fences.

And looking at Absatz's tail male line reveals more interesting references:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?sl=631457

Thanks for sharing!

camohn

Dec. 15, 2008, 10:04 PM

http://www.pedigreequery.com/herod
I would say yes and no. Is it probable that this is a factor since it has pretty well be proven jumping talent has good heritability? Yes. If I was looking to breed a jumper today would I look to see if the horse was linebread to Herod back in the 1700's? Nope. It would not have a current practical application to me but it is a fun exercise in theroy though. FWIW since I have sabino overo TBs I also traced many of the the sabino/overo TBs back to the beginning of the studbook and almost all of them go back to Herod.....possibly because of the Darley Arabian. Arabs are known to carry the sabino gene. Or there is that horse named Old Spot on the top side! And FWIW most of the sabino TBs today (which also carry a very high % of Herod) also have made pretty decent hunter/jumpers.

K~2

Dec. 15, 2008, 10:12 PM

vineyridge

Dec. 16, 2008, 12:04 AM

a) Sport Horse data base information comes from people who sign up to input the data. I do TBs and use the Equineline free pedigree database, which is correct, for the information that I put in. If you look, you will see that they have people all over the world (the English speaking world mostly) who work with them. Dr. Birdsall is one.

b) Herod is Byerley Turk sire line. I'm not necessarily saying that the magic is purely Herod, but that the Buzzard/Alexander Mare crosses produced magic.

c) there are whole families of mares who pass on the jump for generations. Queenie and her daughters, Bonne Cause and her daughters, Mumtaz Mahal and her daughters, Lavendula and her daughters, Miss Disco to her sons, Black Duchess to Blanche; and certain families (5 and 10-e and several of the branches of family 3 to name a few) who just keep on producing jumping horses, apparently through the females as much as the males. Because of mares like The Flying Duchess, Rouge Rose, and Pocahontas, the potential for the jump exists in almost all TB pedigrees. For a breeder, the task is finding the lines that will jumpstart the talent to a higher level.

Where this becomes interesting for breeders is using the female families and the tail female lines to linebreed with sire lines that are known jump producers.

Kyzteke

Dec. 16, 2008, 05:30 AM

b) Herod is Byerley Turk sire line. I'm not necessarily saying that the magic is purely Herod, but that the Buzzard/Alexander Mare crosses produced magic.

Very interesting. It's been pretty well established that the Byerley "Turk" was most likely a Turkomen horse (now known as an Akhal Teke), as were a number of "Eastern" horses who were mistakenly called Arabs. I do know almost all Tekes can jump...very seldom do you find one that can't.

vineyridge

Dec. 16, 2008, 09:40 AM

Another point that should be mentioned is that the Blacklock line of Eclipse comes from King Fergus, not Waxy. In tail male, that is the sire line of St. Simon, and is alive today only through two sires, Ribot and Wild Risk. Both of those lines still carry the jump. Which means that Wild Risk goes back to Blacklock in his tail male line and his tail female line. AND, IIRC, either Miner's Frolic or Miner's Lamp is ALSO tail female to the Brutandorf Mare, who is Blacklock sire line.

That is an example of what I mean by using the pedigree to reinforce lines that are known to produce jumping horses.

All of the other Eclipse sire lines derive from Waxy. That is probably 90% or more of all TBs.

TKR

Dec. 16, 2008, 12:15 PM

What would really be great to preserve this information in some way to easily reference it, would be to put it on software or in some sort of printed material. I think (dangerous!) that if this kind of information was more accessible, it could help in the breeding and marketing of the Thoroughbred for sport. Offering it in some form as above would possible pique the interest of breeders who otherwise don't know how to gain the information and don't know anything about it. Bringing it through the generations to the present time would be most helpful.
PennyG

K~2

Dec. 16, 2008, 05:16 PM

Dec. 16, 2008, 05:35 PM

visited, but can't figure out Storm Cat's pedigree that far back http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10005113

Tiki

Dec. 16, 2008, 09:31 PM

vineyridge

Dec. 16, 2008, 10:17 PM

O'Lero makes sense. Bolero's sire was Eight Thirty, and he has long been known as a good sire for hunter/jumpers. He's one of the "native" American TBs who is excellent in sport horse production. Unfortunately his sireline is dead. The other Eighty Thirty sire son to look for is Sailor.

Dec. 17, 2008, 11:22 AM

Cool - Storm Cat's great granddam's damsire is Bolero - the sire of my old gelding, O'Lero who I absolutely treasued, won all kinds of ribbons with him, and was told my a top dressage judge that he was one of the most beautiful and talented horses he'd ever seen.

Wow, that is where my Storm Cat horse got it from!! After racing at Belmont he schooled to GP, scored with 62s and 65s which is enough to win against all registries regionally. Built croup high like Storm Cat but an 8 mover, very talented and balanced out beautifully -- best news is at 15 and after two careers his is 100% SOUND, no hock injections.

Not a great photo here but see top photo http://www.equisearch.com/horses_riding_training/english/dressage/thoroughbredsporthorse_030206/ He had beautiful form jumping but wasn't into it, only cared about dressage...

grayarabpony

Dec. 17, 2008, 11:41 AM

Cool! This is wonderful to hear of Storm Cat offspring doing well in sport.

lalahartma1

Dec. 17, 2008, 11:59 AM

Woo! Ribot!

Another point that should be mentioned is that the Blacklock line of Eclipse comes from King Fergus, not Waxy. In tail male, that is the sire line of St. Simon, and is alive today only through two sires, Ribot and Wild Risk. Both of those lines still carry the jump. Which means that Wild Risk goes back to Blacklock in his tail male line and his tail female line. AND, IIRC, either Miner's Frolic or Miner's Lamp is ALSO tail female to the Brutandorf Mare, who is Blacklock sire line.

That is an example of what I mean by using the pedigree to reinforce lines that are known to produce jumping horses.

All of the other Eclipse sire lines derive from Waxy. That is probably 90% or more of all TBs.

Tiki

Dec. 17, 2008, 02:39 PM

O'Lero had some kind of injury to his hip or his back at the track. The only thing the vets could tell me was something was wrong with his hip or his back. DUH!!

Andy de Szinay was the judge that loved him. He was the sanest, boldest, most comfortable, safest horse I've ever ridden. Tad Coffin also really liked him in a jumping clinic. He had that incredible TB canter and gallop that just rolled under you. He had a magnificent trot. I was riding with Lendon and Marshall Gray at the time. I wanted to try some cross country jumps with him. Marshall said she wanted to give him a lead so he'd know what to do. She led over the first two jumps, he few by her and took all the others just about by himself. I could take him out on a trail ride and we could do 5 miles in 2 gallop strides and a leap. I could take him out to graze in a halter and lead rope and lie on his back while he grazed and feed safe.

We all went for a big trail ride one winter in the deep snow. When we came out to a road we had to cross, all the working students said there was a big ditch at the side of the road and only one place to cross, but they couldn't remember where it was with all the snow. Their horses were spooking as they tried to cross and kept stepping deep at the edge of the ditch. I asked O'Lero to go forward (he'd never been on this trail before) and he would step forward and test the ground with one foot. He found the safe place by himself and led all the other horses across, calmly.

I had to have him put down at 28 years old after he apparently slipped on a patch of ice in his pasture, fell on a rock and shattered his shoulder. He was incredibly brave to the end, walking in to the yard for the vet to be put down. It broke my heart to lose him that way and I still miss him terribly after all this time. He was an absolute dream and gorgeous to boot. O'Lero (http://www.pedigreequery.com/olero)

TKR

Dec. 17, 2008, 02:52 PM

Dec. 17, 2008, 03:23 PM

He was the sanest, boldest, most comfortable, safest horse I've ever ridden. Tad Coffin also really liked him in a jumping clinic. He had that incredible TB canter and gallop that just rolled under you. He had a magnificent trot. I was riding with Lendon and Marshall Gray at the time. I wanted to try some cross country jumps with him. Marshall said she wanted to give him a lead so he'd know what to do. She led over the first two jumps, he few by her and took all the others just about by himself. I could take him out on a trail ride and we could do 5 miles in 2 gallop strides and a leap. I could take him out to graze in a halter and lead rope and lie on his back while he grazed and feed safe.

We all went for a big trail ride one winter in the deep snow. When we came out to a road we had to cross, all the working students said there was a big ditch at the side of the road and only one place to cross, but they couldn't remember where it was with all the snow. Their horses were spooking as they tried to cross and kept stepping deep at the edge of the ditch. I asked O'Lero to go forward (he'd never been on this trail before) and he would step forward and test the ground with one foot. He found the safe place by himself and led all the other horses across, calmly.

*sigh* there are barely words... speechless, I can't find them.

LivviesMom

Dec. 17, 2008, 06:25 PM

Pamela, the mare that I recently lost (29 y.o.) was out of a mare by Bolero. A nice lady who posts here sent me an email with some photos of a daughter of Pamela's by Dollberg (Han) and some shots of Pamela with the her mare as a new foal. It was very cool since I couldn't get any foals from her. She was Ambiorix/Tourbillon on top, so it was really a shame! Oh well.
PennyG

My filly has that same line... Ambiorix/Tourbillon on top. I love these threads on TB Bloodlines.. Its fascinating.

Here is my 3 year old's pedigree if anyone has any insights!
http://www.pedigreequery.com/love+and+laughter3

vineyridge

Dec. 17, 2008, 07:52 PM

Ambiorix was very special, because not only was he Ksar/Dollar/Selim & The Alexander mare on top, but his dam was Lavendula. She was the dam of Perfume by Badruddin, and Perfume was the dam of My Babu, Marco Polo, Sayani, and a number of other horses, all of whom are great in sport horse lines. Lavendula was also the dam of Source Sucree, dam of Turn-to; and she passed on sport horse qualities to all her offspring. She is one of my favorite mares, and is Female Family 1-w. Her Granddam was a wonderful mare named Marchetta.

not again

Dec. 17, 2008, 08:02 PM

In the hunt for influential names in warmblood breeding from the thoroughbred, I went back to the big name of the 1950s: Ramzes:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=629223

JGHIRETIRE

Dec. 17, 2008, 08:31 PM

http://www.pedigreequery.com/pretty+pirate

This is the mare that I had - she was often mistaken for an arab because of her head. I'm not sure where that came from!!

3GreyMares

Dec. 17, 2008, 08:33 PM

Gawd, I really wish my OTTB boy was a mare!!

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/mr+b+following+me

This is a fascinating discussion. I've always been interested in pedigrees for as long as I can remember. I remember pouring over old Arabian Horse Times that were given to me as a young girl when I owned my first horse, trying to get as "far back" as I could with his lineage.

Hap is the first TB that I've owned, given to me last year by my former eventing trainer.
She had to unload some OTTB trainee's and wanted him to go to a good home. I was going to resale him after I got him going. However, I fell in love.

We are focusing more on Dressage, since I'm older now, and I just don't have the guts I once did for jumping. I was told last month by a clinician that she better see my butt at Regionals in 2009 at 1st level! How cool is that?!

I'm sold on this breed.

vineyridge

Dec. 17, 2008, 11:17 PM

In the hunt for influential names in warmblood breeding from the thoroughbred, I went back to the big name of the 1950s: Ramzes:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=629223

Blood on top and on the bottom does tell with TB's. His TB top is sireline to Castrel, son of Buzzard and The Alexander Mare, and his sire's tail female line is Agnes. Can't do any better than that. Plus you have Selim (Buzzard/Alexander Mare) lines through Hurricane (her sire's Dam Ellen Middleton is sireline Selim, and her damsire line is Blacklock, while Hurricane's damsire line is also Selim) The Flying Duchess and King Tom/Pocahontas, Galopin is sireline Blacklock. Blair Athol is by Stockwell/Pocahontas out of a Queen Mary daughter. Truly royal breeding. There is a huge amount of Selim blood all through his TB sire line. No wonder he was a good jumping sire.

Tiki

Dec. 18, 2008, 02:09 PM

My mare Kitty Colleen (http://www.pedigreequery.com/kitty+colleen)also had a very Araby head and a very round, compact body. She looked like a throwback to her Arab ancestors. Kitty (http://www.tranquilityfarm.com/kitty.html) has sooooooooo many crosses to St. Simon, in almost every single corner of her pedigree, that I lost count. She has at least 2 to Tourbillon/Ksar, several to Rock Sand, lost count again to Teddy/Ajax. Several to Selim. She also has several to Lady Josephine and Flying Dutchess, Buzzard/Woodpecker, Bay Ronald. I can't count high enough for all the crosses and linebreeding.

Do I just have good taste or is it hard to find a TB without all this?

columbus

Dec. 18, 2008, 05:40 PM

I often search for horses over 15 years as that is where I find those sport horse pedigrees and foundation pedigrees...as opposed to popular for the day with out regard to diversity pedigrees and I found this mare back to buzzard on the bottom line. PatO

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/clarion+call4

http://www.equine.com/horses-for-sale/horse-ad-713717.aspx?search_id=1f4d1609-49fa-4082-ba27-144eb83b4525

Florida Fan

Dec. 18, 2008, 07:48 PM

Having had both tbs and warmbloods in competition, tbs as racehorses for many years,and warmbloods in jumping, IMO, there are many bloodlines of tbs that can jump, to get ones that compete at the top internationally is another story. I always found that turf bloodlines had longer smoother strides, and went on to jump easier that the "speed" bloodlines, and have more loft and scope as a rule. However, I really think there are many sires that could really add blood to the warmbloods without sacrificing jump.....like Dynaformer--he has many steeplechase horses, Two Punch has some lovely show horses, Darn That Alarm had some eventers who jumped in fantastic form, and could go higher, but he lost his life in a fire before he go to prove himself as a sport sire. It so depends on the mare if you are breeding for a purpose, and the stud fees on TP and Dynaformer prohibit breeding anything other than runners as they are so successful in that category. Not only that, a successful sport mare may not meet the approval standards. Look up Tudor Minstrel and his sire Owen Tudor---they were quite influential and I don't think really utilized be many wb registries. Anybody have any mares by Tudor Minstrel stallions?

TKR

Dec. 18, 2008, 09:18 PM

I agree with Florida Fan on the stallions mentioned. Love the Dynaformer types and always wanted a DTA mare or to breed to him. After he was lost, I sent the mare I wanted to breed to him to his full brother Strong Performance, who stands in Texas. He was a graded SW in NY and sired a colt that ran 3rd in the Belmont. He is getting on up there, so I was really glad to get a filly from that cross. You can pull her pedigree up if you'd like TKR Avant Garde, some cool crosses on that Jig Time bloodline! She's coming 3, so I'd love to breed her at some point. She is gorgeous! There was a jumper by DTA for sale in Florida not long ago -- very scopey guy! They are certainly under the radar and under appreciated and used. I fear that some great opportunity will go by the wayside because of the current trends and not enough information available on the bloodlines -- sort a "gone with the wind" thing. Quite sad!
PennyG

vineyridge

Dec. 18, 2008, 10:07 PM

lizathenag

Dec. 18, 2008, 11:42 PM

Eight Thirty was by Pilate out of Dinner Time. My good event horse as a kid (who took me to my pony club A and to A shows as a junior hunter and prelim in eventing and did I mention I taught him to drive and herd cattle?) was by Platter who was by Pilate out of a Dinner Time daughter.

grayarabpony

Dec. 18, 2008, 11:53 PM

His stud fee is 5k, though, so the only way I could get a Siphon would be one that didn't make it on the track.

That would probably be easy enough...

camohn

Dec. 19, 2008, 07:34 AM

I agree on all the stallions that TKR and Floridafan mentioned, but would like to add another Roberto son, Lear Fan.

And in PA right now is a TB I would kill to have a foal by: Siphon. He's from Brazil, but is sireline Prince Bio/St. Simon, and has some really wonderful Argentine horses as well. His stud fee is 5k, though, so the only way I could get a Siphon would be one that didn't make it on the track.

I am worse since I want a Two Punch mare and his fee is 25K! But....I am not even looking until one of my Old Ladies goes to the great beyond or a young un sell........no room at the inn until someone goes.........

TKR

Dec. 19, 2008, 09:17 AM

A published stud fee is often much lower if you check with an agent handling the seasons for the different owners. So many times the multiple owners who have a season or more, choose to sell it instead of use it and offer for less through an agent. In 2009, there should be some bargains. You can see if he had a full book last year and that tells you if he might be available cheaper.
PennyG

vineyridge

Dec. 19, 2008, 10:42 AM

Look at Pilate's pedigree. He is damsire The Tetrarch and TAIL FEMALE to Bronze. His sire was Rock Sand, whose son was Friar Rock, half brother through Fairy Gold to Fair Play, sire of Man O'War. Dinner Times' damsire was Man O'War. Pilate has multiple lines to Galopin (Blacklock sire line & The Flying Duchess as dam). Pilate is linebred top and bottom to Bend Or, whose dam Rouge Red is a daughter of Thormanby (in The Tetrarch sire line). Roi Herode, the sire of The Tetrarch is tail female to Rouge Rose.

Dinner Time's sire's second dam is by Springfield, who is the grandsire of Rock Sand. Rock Sand was also Mahubah's sire.

From this, you can see that TB linebreeding to lines that are known to have passed on jumping talent is not something to avoid, but something to use and use wisely.