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View Full Version : Can't wait for hunting season to be over *long rant*



mysaygrace
Dec. 15, 2008, 01:14 PM
I don't know about everyone else but I consider myself lucky each year when we make it thru a hunting season without any of our animals getting shot. The people around me are what you would consider "rough" you know the type that say “you don't own your land god does” and “we were here before you built your house there”, they fly the rebel flag have less than 6 teeth, etc... Guess that’s how we got our land so cheap... :no:Anyway, I take the first whole week off the day deer season starts just to keep an eye on things on our property, this year has been nerve wracking! Last year we had underage juveniles wearing all camo walking thru my fields & woods to flush the deer out to their older brother. This year the same kids shot into a house then claimed the box of bullets states the bullet only goes so many ft. - UH no you dumb @$$ that's feet per second! Then neighbor puts his tree stand right on our property line even though he's within our safety zone and says he's only going to use a bow and shoot away from our property line, yeah right, saw him going up there with a gun the other day & then when he saw me and realized I saw the gun he left, so had I not been around he would’ve been up there with a gun?! Now it's not even safe to use our riding ring up in the woods, I feel like a prisoner on our own farm, this has royally sucked! Then last but not least, this weekend a man is in the middle of field behind our property facing our barns & house with a high power rifle,:o so my husband goes to talk with him and he said he has permission to hunt on the land behind our farm, okay all well and good but this drunk, yes he was drunk didn't understand that you can NOT shoot into a safety zone (our property). He claims he knows where all our buildings are and animals that he'd aim away from them. I could just scream, I swear any @$$hole can go to Walmart & get a gun & license anymore. When I was a kid I took the hunter safety course and was brought up very educated about rules, regulations and gun safety. It's not like I'm anti hunting, my husband is an avid hunter, but he doesn't even hunt at our farm, it's just not safe because of nearby houses. Is it too much to ask that people just respect our property lines and keep away from our animals. We try to keep to ourselves and not bother anyone but it’s getting hard to do that. I'm afraid to pi$$ these crazy people off in fear that they'll do something to our animals. The other night I couldn't even get our horses to come in to eat which is highly unusual, they were all stressed out about something. Here I find out from our neighbor that they're was a man right behind our barn hunting and there were shots?! WTF!!! :mad:So far the game commission has been less than helpful, so I guess soon I’ll have to get local police involved. It’s hard to get the proof I need to show the game commission so I’ve been carrying my camera with me, but I wonder how the trespasser is going to take it when I ask them to turn around so I can get their license number. And by the time the game commission can get here they’re gone. Sigh, I feel like it's a losing battle, well thanks for listening to me rant & rave...Can't wait for hunting to be over, oh tis the season :(

danceronice
Dec. 15, 2008, 01:17 PM
Well, leaving aside my feeling about building more houses in the country--call the DNR on these people (or whatever your equivalent is.) Also the police, as people crossing your land are tresspassing. Teh camera's a good idea--there's nothing they can do without documentation but it sounds like these people are around plenty long enough for you to get some! We were lucky--the last time someone fired in the wrong direction, not only did my dad go up the road to investigate, the local DNR office just happened to be driving by. (Nice timing, buddy!)

Heh. Another thing that helps--the guys we let hunt our front forty? State police officers.

paulosey
Dec. 15, 2008, 01:29 PM
Hum...I've taken the hunter safety course as well. I think it's much easier to get guns in your neck of the woods, but the way I see it is this: Someone is going to be hunting on your land...whether you like it or not. You are far better to give permission to a responsible hunter and know they are there and following the rules than to give no one permission. If no one has permission, the locals will be free to do as they please. A responsible hunter can help keep an eye on things and the riff raff will tend to stay away if someone else is hunting. This is how I control the hunting on my own 100 acres. Just a FYI.

Iron Horse Farm
Dec. 15, 2008, 01:53 PM
We had this problem a couple of years ago. I sicced my 108# Black German Shep on some unwelcome hunters and told them in no uncertain terms that I would shoot anyone that harmed the dog. They left in a cloud of dirt road dust.

I heard later at the CoOp that I am known as the lady with the Crazy Dog. I haven't bothered to tell anyone there that he died 2 years ago of a brain tumor.

Rivendell Horses
Dec. 15, 2008, 03:02 PM
Last year i was teaching one of my very small students on my large pony. He is generally a great pony, BUT that day we had some @sshat run along my fence line (on my property) to flush the deer.

I live on 5 acres. there are houses on either side of me, with 2-5 acres. Behind me is another farmette who's land reaches another street (mine goes to a different one. the two meet in a T but that's a 1/4 mile away) hope that made sense.

So the guy is chasing the deer on my property (we are surrounded by trees and have about 2 acres btw me and my neighbor that is all fenced and my mom feeds the deer).

I had to grab my pony to make certain that he wouldnt spook, and we watched this happen. If i hadnt, i would have i dunno thrown something at the guy.

Minutes later as the herd of 20 deer split and either went to the farm on the left of me, or across my neighbors from property, over a pretty busy street (also spooking his boarders' horse to book (thankfully) toward my horses and not across the street..he was hand grazing..)

Commence slaughter. And no i have no problem when it's hunting...tracking..going to find the deer. Not having someone chase them so you can line up and shoot as many as you can as they run in front of you. And yes there are houses on either side of the street.

My parents called the cops over it and he said that it's only illegal if they are caught on your poprty. They can lose their hunting lisence. And can get in trouble for trespassing. The farm and game people that are located in the huge park that hunting is legal in, were no help. Even the sending the deer across a busy minor highway and causing accidents? they wouldnt get in trouble. Which i think is stupid. But i know i am allowed to (if it ever happens again) to jump the fence and knock the guy down and hog tie him.

It also helped that my mom kept going on and on about my student and that i was teaching and how the horse could have spooked and hurt my student and what not.

VERY frustrating.

I would go with the cops, as they can tell you more of your legal rights. We had to put up "no trespassing on the boarder of out property.

it sucks winter can't be done soon enough.

:-)
Jen
www.rivendellhorsefarm.com

MLP
Dec. 15, 2008, 03:10 PM
We had this problem a couple of years ago. I sicced my 108# Black German Shep on some unwelcome hunters and told them in no uncertain terms that I would shoot anyone that harmed the dog. They left in a cloud of dirt road dust.

I heard later at the CoOp that I am known as the lady with the Crazy Dog. I haven't bothered to tell anyone there that he died 2 years ago of a brain tumor.

Except I knew a family with a similar story and they shot the dog :(

cloudyandcallie
Dec. 15, 2008, 03:16 PM
My home state of Georgia is bad enough with the crazy hunters who think they should shoot at everything that moves, including other hunters who are wearing orange.

But I do have to say that Pennsylvania is worse than Georgia. I lived in PA for a while, and it was crazy. Plus any dog running loose in the area I lived in got shot, because they were considered a threat to the deer that were for hunters only, apparently.

Best to keep horses in in deer season, post property prolifically, and get a reputation as a person who will protect your property and aninals by any means necessary.

And I did grow up in a hunting family but my father hunted on private land, didn't use dogs for anything other than birds, didn't use stands, didn't drink while hunting and never shot at anything that he couldn't tell was a deer/duck/dove/quail.

And my 2 horses were stabled by a "sporting clays" gun club, not a hunting club, for over 3 yrs so they were not gunshy when at another barn someone killed a deer right by the pasture, and left it to die while another horse went beserk.

JSwan
Dec. 15, 2008, 03:52 PM
That's odd because based on your description I can think of several basic game regs that these people broke, not to mention laws.

It's a shame - people like that don't deserve to be called hunters. They're poachers. Criminals. I hunt, and allow hunting on my small farm. I'd rather have needles stuck in my eyes than cause a fellow citizen any distress.

Often responding to these calls is difficult because the game warden is responsible for enforcing game law and regs. But there are only a few for the entire state, so local law enforcement may be called. But they may not want to deal with it so it keeps going back and forth. Meanwhile, the landowners just wants law enforcement to respond.

And poachers know that enforcement is almost impossible and they take advantage of it. Giving all lawful hunters a black eye. It really pisses me off.

If you're having trouble with poachers, or issues with a certain type of hunting, sometimes you can work with your game department and local law enforcement to iron things out. Whether increased vigilance, working with a local club to iron out problems (not mounted foxhunting necessarily but many hunters belong to hunt clubs), or even having the game department moderate disputes between landowners and hunters.

It requires time and effort, but from what I know of such things in my own state, the response has been positive.

I've not had problems with poachers on my land, but I did have trouble with trespassers. The best defense is allowing someone to hunt on your land - they'll keep watch over your land for you.

Sorry for everyone's troubles.


Last year i was teaching one of my very small students on my large pony. He is generally a great pony, BUT that day we had some @sshat run along my fence line (on my property) to flush the deer.

I live on 5 acres. there are houses on either side of me, with 2-5 acres. Behind me is another farmette who's land reaches another street (mine goes to a different one. the two meet in a T but that's a 1/4 mile away) hope that made sense.

So the guy is chasing the deer on my property (we are surrounded by trees and have about 2 acres btw me and my neighbor that is all fenced and my mom feeds the deer).

I had to grab my pony to make certain that he wouldnt spook, and we watched this happen. If i hadnt, i would have i dunno thrown something at the guy.

Minutes later as the herd of 20 deer split and either went to the farm on the left of me, or across my neighbors from property, over a pretty busy street (also spooking his boarders' horse to book (thankfully) toward my horses and not across the street..he was hand grazing..)

Commence slaughter. And no i have no problem when it's hunting...tracking..going to find the deer. Not having someone chase them so you can line up and shoot as many as you can as they run in front of you. And yes there are houses on either side of the street.

My parents called the cops over it and he said that it's only illegal if they are caught on your poprty. They can lose their hunting lisence. And can get in trouble for trespassing. The farm and game people that are located in the huge park that hunting is legal in, were no help. Even the sending the deer across a busy minor highway and causing accidents? they wouldnt get in trouble. Which i think is stupid. But i know i am allowed to (if it ever happens again) to jump the fence and knock the guy down and hog tie him.

It also helped that my mom kept going on and on about my student and that i was teaching and how the horse could have spooked and hurt my student and what not.

VERY frustrating.

I would go with the cops, as they can tell you more of your legal rights. We had to put up "no trespassing on the boarder of out property.

it sucks winter can't be done soon enough.

:-)
Jen
www.rivendellhorsefarm.com

Kementari
Dec. 15, 2008, 03:55 PM
:eek:

Note to self: don't move to PA.

Hunting season IS over here, but even during it I haven't had problems (knock on wood...). I keep right on trail riding, with my blaze orange vest, saddle pad, and polo wraps (and bear bells, though I couldn't find them this year), and the hunters I actually meet are generally polite.

It does make me nervous, but I'm too stubborn to give up riding for a month and a half! :lol:

CanterQueen
Dec. 15, 2008, 04:01 PM
Best to keep horses in in deer season, post property prolifically, and get a reputation as a person who will protect your property and aninals by any means necessary.

I have "no trespassing" signs all around my property -- lots of them. One early morning while feeding I saw a hunter passing through my lower pasture (full camo, and bow and arrow). I own a Glock 9mm and know how to use it. He perked right up when he saw me coming -- Glock in hand and screaming at him.

I look forward to the day I have a reputation as the crazy animal protecting lady. :yes:

Jasmine
Dec. 15, 2008, 04:14 PM
I've found the best way to keep out unwanted hunters is to have a few respectful hunters working your property. Hunters get territorial. And they're all armed. If you can find a few hunters who maybe live in a nearby city to hunt on your land and respect your property, that might help. I have a couple who hunt on my farm. This year alone, they've chased off three trespassers. And they know not to shoot the ponies, sheep, or chickens.

JSwan
Dec. 15, 2008, 04:23 PM
You know what's funny is that I foxhunt 3 days a week during the entire deer season and we share the land just fine. Public and private land. I see them because of the blaze orange - they see the huntsman, master and whips because of the scarlet coats. Sometimes we'll stop and talk about what's going on in the woods, if they've seen anything, or some of us gun nuts will ask questions about the firearms they're carrying. One day after fox hunting we hung out with the deer hunters and had hot soup and coffee. They had a little stove set up and everything.

A fond memory of this season was walking along a dirt road and coming upon a man and his young daughter out hunting. She was smiling and wanted to pet the horses, and of course we obliged.

I told the father how nice it was to see a girl learning to hunt alongside her Dad, and he beamed and said this was her first time. It's nice to see evidence that ethical hunters are passing on their knowledge to our youth. I admit that sometimes I wonder.

It's probably just good sense to wear blaze orange during the season, even if you're not hunting.

If any of y'all want to read up on regs or game laws, usually the game department has free publications available any where a hunting license or ammo is sold. Bag limits will be a separate publication, and then there may be a larger one with all the regs and laws in it. It's free and published every year. That may help answer any questions you might have about a certain practice.

Driving and flushing of game is usually specifically addressed, as are things like hunting over bait, food plots, legal blinds, use of hounds/dogs, etc. Distance from an occupied dwelling may be found in your state statutes, but you may also want to look at your local ordinances. I know of one county here that regulated a certain type of load. Hunting from the roads/lining the roads, that will most likely also be found in a state statute, but may also be addressed in a game regulation. Shooting across the roadway is bad joo joo no matter what. Game going onto the highway - well - I've read several studies done on several species. That argument is not supported. It's possible for any wild animal to be spooked by anything and run into the road, of course. But hunting also coincides with the rut (deer) and increased foraging activity for mast (bear). Since most collisions occur at night when hunting is not taking place.... well... it's just not supported.

Anyway - getting involved in your game department may help thwart these idiots. Lord knows lawful hunters are pretty sick of this crap too.

Cita
Dec. 15, 2008, 05:56 PM
My family has had good luck by talking to 1 or 2 *trusted* hunters and giving them - and ONLY them - permission to hunt on their land. They tend to get very posessive of "their" territories, and do a good job of chasing off the unsavory hunter types. I don't know if this is an option for you, though, if you don't have any land that can safely be hunted. :-\

twofatponies
Dec. 15, 2008, 08:45 PM
My family has had good luck by talking to 1 or 2 *trusted* hunters and giving them - and ONLY them - permission to hunt on their land. They tend to get very posessive of "their" territories, and do a good job of chasing off the unsavory hunter types. I don't know if this is an option for you, though, if you don't have any land that can safely be hunted. :-\

Many people I know who have farms do this - it is a super safety feature. A friend with a remote farm has the guy who lives next door hunt and snowmobile on her property. He is out there everyday, and knows if something is not right, and spots the signs if someone has been trespassing.

One friend of ours who was a city guy bought an old farm in the mountains, and the first year there a guy showed up and said, hey we always could hunt here before, do you mind, and our friend said, sure, whatever. Well, opening day about 60 guys showed up and there were practically fist fights over the best spots. So the next year he picked one guy and banned everyone else!

We had a very civilized hunting season. We ride on five neighboring farms, and I checked with each of them about hunting, and they all had assigned hunters; all of them asked us to please not ride through the woods during the season, and to tell them right away if we saw anyone besides the assigned people. We stuck to road riding at midday for a while, with blaze vests on. The weather's been crappy anyway, so no huge loss. Tomorrow's the last day of bow season, so we'll be delighted to be back in the fields, weather permitting.

It's just funny, because every person I ever talk to about hunting (even hunters!) all have no end of stories about all the terrible, drunk, idiot hunters out there! But all the hunters I actually know are very careful and responsible.

Woodland
Dec. 15, 2008, 09:12 PM
I use to fear hunting season because I grew up in the city where no one I knew hunted. Every fall brought new fears of people and guns in my woods and pastures.

After finding evidence of poaching in my woods my fears increased a million fold. Signs posted did not deter. I contacted local law enforcement and the DNR. After several lengthy discussions with them, Ik realized how difficult it was to "catch some one in the act" to prosecute. I was frustrated and scared! I knew no poacher would care if they shot one of my horses by accident.

The solution? I allow a few trustworthy local hunters to hunt in my woods. WHY? Because people will not hunt when they know someone is hunting "legally". These guys protect my horses by creating a safe buffer between them and the bad guys! Word gets out and the local guys I have here are all in law enforcement.

My horses are now safe from morons!

county
Dec. 15, 2008, 10:37 PM
I've never had even one problem from hunters even though theres about 6000 acres of state hunting land on 3 sides of us. Theres usually 20 or more deer hunters right around our place and they sit on our fence lines. I have no problem with that its their right to hunt on the state land and on that side of the fence. My horses don't get spooked from gun shots they go about their business grazing and their normal routine.

Woodland
Dec. 15, 2008, 10:42 PM
I wanted to add that domestic animals shot accidentally in hunting season sounds quite horrific - but is really very very rare.

Also there is CWD in my area. I know that there is no transmittal known to horses - but I do not want to own the first cross over of the disease. So SHOOT THE DEER and protect my horses! The deer are worse than field mice in my area they need to be cleaned out!

I am very happy - no contented with having hunters here and hunting in general. I never imagined I would be. But it is the proper way of things.

danceronice
Dec. 15, 2008, 11:06 PM
Like I said--best hunters-with-permission we've had have been state police guys.

And where I'm from it's bovine TB and crop damage that's a problem. Our neighbor who cash-farms soy is very supportive of everyone getting and filling their antlerless permit, too. (Does usually have more meat, anyway.)

yellow-horse
Dec. 16, 2008, 01:14 AM
I only have 20 acres but there are 100's of acres f wooded land on 3 sides of me, i allow my neighbor and his family to coem through my property, they don't even really want to hunt here, just pass through but it helps to have someone walking around in the woods during peak hunting times of the day, I only ask him to not let horses and goats loose and to open my garage door when they're in the woods so I know they're back there
they're pretty nice people, i doubt they'd shoot any of my animals

Donella
Dec. 16, 2008, 01:37 AM
I have had it with hunters. I am borderline hating them (and I really detest that word, but really..I am getting close!).

We leased out our beautiful Varian bred arabian mare two years ago to really great people who bred her to a fabulous Varian bred stallion and got a super little black filly that we had just gone out to see a few months ago. Absolutely stunning filly. The whole family was so attached to her, kids, mom ect...she really was their dream come true. She had her front leg blown clean off last month by hunters...can you imagine??

You know...I try to be open minded but think about it: Hunting is an activity where humans (who are relatively large brained/intelligent) get on really fast, motorized vehicles and use extremely efficient mechanized killing machines to stalk, chase (and often terrorize) and kill/maim something utterly defenceless with a relatively very small brain and relatively slow way of getting around/escaping. Yeah..really something to feel proud of....huge accomplishment there big boy!!:mad:.

I just don't understand the mentality...and I really dislike our species 90 percent of the time....so disapointing.:no:

dalpal
Dec. 16, 2008, 08:45 AM
And could someone please explain to me how dumping rows of corn in a small area, then climbing in a deer stand and just waiting to open fire on the ones who come up to eat corn is hunting?????????? Makes me sick.

We had a hunter on our farm a few months ago (he did have permission) and this guy opened fire on a doe and left her baby orphaned. :no: When the baby took off, this yahoo took off after the baby trying to kill it too.

NOt to mention the one who opened fire on a buck sleeping in a field....

Yeah, that's some quality sportsmanship there.

I despise deer hunting season.

LEC Trail Rider
Dec. 16, 2008, 09:02 AM
I figure - hey blaze orange can never be bad, right???? I have a vest to wear while riding or hiking, too.

And they are reasonable.

http://www.protectavest.com/vest.html

JSwan
Dec. 16, 2008, 11:51 AM
You know...I try to be open minded but think about it: Hunting is an activity where humans (who are relatively large brained/intelligent) get on really fast, motorized vehicles and use extremely efficient mechanized killing machines to stalk, chase (and often terrorize) and kill/maim something utterly defenceless with a relatively very small brain and relatively slow way of getting around/escaping. Yeah..really something to feel proud of....huge accomplishment there big boy!!:mad:.

I just don't understand the mentality...and I really dislike our species 90 percent of the time....so disapointing.:no:

Wow. That's not only pretty harsh, it's a complete misrepresentation of hunting in North America. It's also not very open minded, since it appears that you don't know much about hunting or sportsmen.

For everyone who complains about a particular incident, one thing always stands out.

What you are usually describing is a criminal in the act of committing a crime, not lawful hunting.
When the incident described is not a criminal act, it's usually either stereotyping, or the person is not familiar with a particular practice (and the reasons for it). Or, all they've been exposed to is animal rights type information, and those folks play fast and loose with the truth.

So let's try some facts.

The "hunters" that many of you hate so much are responsible for the creation of the North American Wildlife Conservation Model. Yes, sportsmen created the concept of conservation in North America (including Canada). Ethical people, including Aldo Leopold, saw the destruction of habitat and wildlife due to market gunners, clear cutting, and extinction of species and were appalled.

This Model is unique in the history of Mankind. No other nation has this ethic - it was born in America and is strongly supported to this day. It is the wildlife "bill of rights" if you will, and is the basis for wildlife policy and management in the US.

Here is some information for you. http://www.rmef.org/Hunting/HuntersConservation/

http://www.bcwf.bc.ca/documents/s=256/bcw1145413546908/

http://www.huntright.org/heritage/conservation.aspx

http://www.huntfairchase.com/

http://www.pope-young.org/

http://www.trcp.org/

http://www.aheia.com/

http://www.boone-crockett.org/huntingEthics/ethics_overview.asp?area=huntingEthics

Also note the extensive information on hunter ethics - this information is included in hunter safety education courses across the US. Anyone can take this course, you don't have to hunt. The course is free.

Early in the nation's history, we rejected the "Old World" notion that wildlife belonged to the landowner - and in the Old World that meant the gentry. In America, wildlife belongs to the public - and we all have the right to enjoy it in whatever form we choose. (hunting, birding, photography). Again - this is unique.

Every attempt to create parks, set aside land, restore wildnerness, restore wetlands or other habitat - ALL of that is almost exclusively funded or advocated for by hunters - and they do it even though they'll never be able to see (or hunt) the species and habitat that has been restored. They do it because they believe that conservation is important for its own sake.

Sportsmen willingly pay enormous taxes on the purchase of any sporting/hunting equipment, including ammunition. These taxes, which they vote on themselves, are used to restore habitat, and create and fund parks - including land and parks that horse people ride on. They ask nothing in return.

Sportsmen pay license fees, even to hunt on ANY public land - state or federal. Citizens do not purchase licenses at all. I may never hunt on that land - but I pay the fee just the same. And I write the check with a smile on my face.

Same with duck stamps. Any of you know what those are? This is in addition to any license fees - you have to purchase stamps from the state and the feds. I write that check with a smile on my face too.

All that money, and more, is used to protect the land, restore habitat, and ensure ALL Americans (and Canadians) have the ability to enjoy the wonders of the natural world.

When you ride your horse on a trail, when you drive past beautiful farms with protected riparian areas, when you enjoy clean water or clean air, when you visit a park, see wolves, elk, or any other species....

You have sportsmen to thank for that. We probably don't even hunt the species you have the privilege of viewing, but you can bet your bottom dollar that we helped protect that species.

Deer hunting is crucial on the east coast. In some areas it's combined with other strategies to help control the deer population. There are more deer now than when Jamestown was founded. CWD is a threat to not only the deer and elk population, but it may also pose a risk to cattle. We MUST not let that disease make its way into our food chain. Sportsmen fully support mandatory sampling of harvested animals. Deer are also responsible for the spread of Lyme Disease - a disease that in some parts of the country is almost an epidemic. The CDC has pretty scary numbers on that. Deer/auto collisions cost the public a tremendous amount of money.

No ethical sportsman supports those who break our game laws, or who hunt or behave in an irresponsible manner. But we also ask the public to refrain from painting us all with a broad brush, and to learn about the hows and whys of hunting before forming an opinion. There may be a good reason a hunter hunts over bait or a food plot in your area. What you witness may or may not be a criminal act. If hunting occurs in your area, your livestock need to become accustomed to the sounds of gunfire. Chances are local hunters would be happy to work with you.

And the next time you go out and ride on public or private land, and you see beautiful birds, healthy streams, or gorgeous wetlands.... thank a hunter.

Sorry for the long-winded post but I get tired of the same old song - usually written by nice folks who simply don't have complete information.

danceronice
Dec. 16, 2008, 12:00 PM
I can't really add anything to JSwan's excellent post except to add that in some states bait piling is not even legal any more because of concerns about bovine TB and CWD being transmitted when deer congregate. Though if you're bow-hunting, having a bait pile is sometimes the only way to get close enough (and even then the deer sometimes stand just barely out of bow range and thumb their noses in your general direction. Not that that's happened to me or anything.)

paulosey
Dec. 16, 2008, 12:00 PM
Thank you J Swan... I wish my words were so eloquent. Unfortunatly the unethical hunters get much more attention in the media than the good ones.

anita m
Dec. 16, 2008, 12:01 PM
I have no problems with responsible hunting. In fact, they are doing us and the deer herds a favor by keeping them from overpopulating, starrving, and/or getting struck and killed by traffic.

It's these types that bother me:
http://www.wbaltv.com/news/18247694/detail.html?rss=bal&psp=news

CanterQueen
Dec. 16, 2008, 12:04 PM
It's just funny, because every person I ever talk to about hunting (even hunters!) all have no end of stories about all the terrible, drunk, idiot hunters out there! But all the hunters I actually know are very careful and responsible.

When I was doing Mounted Search and Rescue the instructor said lost persons #1 by far are drunk hunters. :no:

silver2
Dec. 16, 2008, 12:04 PM
Well we hunt for meat and I ain't no spring chicken so if I don't have to go traipsing around over hill and dale to get a deer then yay for me. I don't hunt illegally but it's not for the sense of accomplishment or the sport of it either. It's to eat!

I know I cause less hassle and harm to wildlife with hunting than most people do eating meat that was raised on an industrial farm, shipped around the world and that they drove their SUV to the supermarket to buy in tiny increments throughout the year. We go hunting a few times, stick it in the freezer and we're done impacting the planet for the year.

Murphy's Mom
Dec. 16, 2008, 12:33 PM
I've only been shot at once and it was NOT hunting season. And I live in the desert (ie. NO trees) so you know they were shooting at me on purpose. For hunting season I just wear an orange sweatshirt and I got Murphy an orange quarter sheet from protectavest.com. I've never had problems with the hunters. If fact, I ran in to two hunters on one ride and they commented that they were watching me in all my orangeness, then got concerned when they lost track of me.

riverbell93
Dec. 16, 2008, 12:37 PM
I'd swallow the pro-hunting argument a lot easier if hunters (good and bad) didn't seem to always have such a feeling of entitlement. These are the woods, those are the game animals, this is my gun, get outta the way. Too, I live in a densely populated area where the bad sort of hunter is incredibly likely to kill someone, just because there is ALWAYS a house just through those trees.

twofatponies
Dec. 16, 2008, 12:55 PM
I do wish around here people would shoot a few extra deer. Last time I drove around the block (a square mile) at dusk, I counted 36 deer. In one square mile!!! All does and youngsters, as far as I could tell.

When I was a kid deer were so scarce we would pull over and get out of the car to look if we saw one in a field in the distance!!

BCLINGER
Dec. 16, 2008, 01:02 PM
I believe hunting is an atavistic urge in some men, the same way shopping is in women. Men feel the need to "provide", and women feel a need to "gather"

silver2
Dec. 16, 2008, 01:33 PM
I'd swallow the pro-hunting argument a lot easier if hunters (good and bad) didn't seem to always have such a feeling of entitlement. These are the woods, those are the game animals, this is my gun, get outta the way.
Exactly how a lot of people around here feel about people with horses. Huge battle at the moment between the horseback riders and the hikers (horse poop on the trails).

county
Dec. 16, 2008, 01:34 PM
Theres bad hunters same as bad horse back riders. Around hunters aren't a problem its the horse back riders that they their entitled to ride through crops, pastures and not close gates, their attitude is " theres a trail it must be for me to ride on".

danceronice
Dec. 16, 2008, 01:46 PM
I'll take horses and hunters over snowmobilers who think that this is the great unlimited public lands of Alaska or the Yukon or something. The fence and the posted signs aren't a hint it's private property? We've had to pull downed trees over the road gates (openings in wire fences on our hayfields--the property's ag, not livestock, and has old wire) and there have been people who've moved the trees. Or the snow gets deeper adn they can ride over it! At least our barn has a board fence and locked gates--that's about the only place they HAVEN'T trespassed--and they do it at night so it's hard to figure out who it is, too, or catch them in the act.

Iron Horse Farm
Dec. 16, 2008, 02:01 PM
I really would like to embrace the hunters, but maybe it is just Michigan............??

Go trail riding and find tree stands built on your property with huge piles of Budweiser cans under them. (yea cause ya gotta be drunk ta hunt!).

Walking the trails around my big hay field and finding all of the deer bodies left to rot - minus the head of course - gotta have that rack!

Just last week we had coyotes bringing down a deer in our back yard that the hunter wounded and couldn't bother following. (probably all of that shooting with Budweiser on board).

I will admit, I am biased. I have supported a boss, a brother and an ex that I knew hunted responsibly, however, working at the emergency clinic and seeing all of the animals that were used as target practice this time of year really makes you upset. And we only get to see the ones that lived long enough to get to us for help. Not to mention the neighbor's upper level dressage horse that was shot in bow and arrow season - did I mention that it is a B & W Paint horse. Yes, that looks like a deer! NOT.

We NEED responsible hunters in this area. I think Michigan had something like 60,000 car/deer collisions last year (that were reported), but it just seems like an activity that rings out the worst in people.

danceronice
Dec. 16, 2008, 02:08 PM
Well, maybe it's because a lot of people have a bad attitude about it? Out east here, there is definitely an attitude that hunting is what those redneck people do (in addition to being stupid, inbred, and uneducated, and by redneck they mean anyone living west of Worcester and sometimes not that far out. But then a lot of people in Boston tend to be raving snobs and not very nice anyway.) If there wasn't such a sense that 'hunting is what white trash do' more people might give it a try.

But the farm I'm referring to is central Michigan, and honestly we've never had much of a problem. I mean, some blind/proptery line issues and the guys across the road shooting too close to the road, but definitely nothing like some people seem to think is normal.

silver2
Dec. 16, 2008, 02:15 PM
danceronice, I think truly rural areas have a lot less problems than 5-10 acre lots where people think they are "country".

After all, when you know or are related to all of your neighbours you are bound ot be a bit more polite :)

county
Dec. 16, 2008, 02:59 PM
All those beer cans remind me of the horseback riders that think farms are a place to throw those beers you have to suck down to ride a horse.

JSwan
Dec. 16, 2008, 03:15 PM
I believe hunting is an atavistic urge in some men, the same way shopping is in women. Men feel the need to "provide", and women feel a need to "gather"

Well that's just nonsense.

There are tens of thousands of female hunters. Some of us started hunting when we were kids. There are Women in the Outdoors programs in game departments. Plenty of girls and women hunt.

In fact - their numbers are increasing.


Can we please move past stereotypes? Next y'all will be telling me that gay people don't hunt or fish because their makeup is "different" from "normal" people.

Come on folks, it's the 21st century.

And like other folks who have posted, you'd be surprised how many stereotypes there are about horses and horsepeople. Lordy -they'll spread bird flu, horse poop is full of worms and their dogs or kids will get them, horse people are rich bitches with a sense of entitlement, horsebackriders trespass all over the place (which is often true), blah blah blah.

I have never, in all my days, found any good to come of stereotypes.

Enough already!!!:)

katarine
Dec. 16, 2008, 03:24 PM
I don't mind hunting one bit. I DID mind when a spotlight was cast up the long slope that ends in MY pasture, this past Sunday evening. We drove the Mule over and made a ton of noise, and called the Sheriff's dept. "They" are welcome to hunt that land, but my goodness, do so a) legally and b) bearing in mind my fields, my house...and my neighbor's fields, my neighbor's houses.

Looking back now on this years trip to MT, flushing elk left and right on top of that ridge, you bet I'd have loved to hunt, right that moment, I could feel the pull of it. Never felt that before, but yeah, I got it. Boobs and all ;)

Beverley
Dec. 16, 2008, 03:24 PM
As a woman who much prefers hunting to shopping I'd have to agree with JSwan.

I've just read this thread for the first time, and I notice that if you remove the word 'hunters' and replace it with 'horse people' you get the non-horsey set's stereotype of all of us.

Think about it, please.

MistyBlue
Dec. 16, 2008, 03:43 PM
Agree with those who said find a responsible hunter and give him/her exclusive hunting rights to your property. And let him/her put up a stand too...that way the property is "marked" even when the hunter isn't there.
A resident hunter is better than fish and game living next door to you...it's like having a big dog pee on your property line...other hunters will avoid your place like the plague. Because a good hunter will report every single bad hunter poaching someone else's land and the DNR or fish and game take complaints from hunters a little more seriously than from othr folks. I know that doesn't sound fair but they do get sick and tired of people who hate all hunting and call them whenevr they see anyone wearing camo whether they're doing something wrong or not. Heck, they get tons of calls from people asking them to come stop deer from eating their flowers...here in CT we had people calling to ask that deer crossing signs be moved somewhere else because they didn't want the deer crossing there anymore. :lol: The misunderstanding of good hunters is as prevelent as horse people getting calls from non-horse people about the 'blindfolds' their horses are wearing.
Here in CT we have more bad citiot hunters than bad drunk hunters. The "moved to the country" folks who go out and buy a brand new outfit from LL Bean and traipse off into the woods with the price tag still on their first new rifle and proceed to get lost within 1/2 mile of a road...but at last those aren't dangerous. Just funny. My friend was trail riding a month ago and was getting worried about 2 hunters following her way behind...she stopped and asked them to stop following her...they pleaded her to lead them back to civilization, LOL! Last year I had to walk about 75 feet into the woods behind my house and "save" a newbie hunter who was "lost." He asked me how I could be out in the cold woods all day without a jacket...I pointed to my house and said, "I've been outside for all of 2 minutes after hearing you fire 3x."
As J Swan said...you can thank ever responsible hunter in this country for the majority of the conservation we have. And to stop the bonehead hunters...give exclusive rights of your property to a good hunter. You'll never have bad hunters on your property again. We have WAY too many deer here and they need to be hunted for the reasons stated in other posts and for population control. Ever see tons of deer slowly starving and freezing to death in winter because there's too many? not only is that far more cruel than hunting them...it also drastically raises the numbers of predators. (too much good food means larger litters that all survive) Hunters help keep a healthy and natural balance...because us humans have thrown everything out of whack and we need to rebalance it again. Plus I'm damned sick of getting Lyme disease.

dalpal
Dec. 16, 2008, 03:47 PM
I can't really add anything to JSwan's excellent post except to add that in some states bait piling is not even legal any more because of concerns about bovine TB and CWD being transmitted when deer congregate. Though if you're bow-hunting, having a bait pile is sometimes the only way to get close enough (and even then the deer sometimes stand just barely out of bow range and thumb their noses in your general direction. Not that that's happened to me or anything.)

That's not the case.....these are men using guns, not bows. Hell, my dog can hunt down deer without using corn for bait...surely if these guys got off their arses, they could at least try to actually HUNT and not AMBUSH

JSwan
Dec. 16, 2008, 04:01 PM
That's not the case.....these are men using guns, not bows. Hell, my dog can hunt down deer without using corn for bait...surely if these guys got off their arses, they could at least try to actually HUNT and not AMBUSH

Well, I don't care for hunting over bait but you do realize that ambushing one's prey IS hunting. Predators ambush prey all the time - it is how they hunt. Heck - cats stalk and ambush cute widdle mousies. :lol:

There are different methods of hunting. Some people think hunting with a dog is lazy. I can guarantee you that people who say that have never hunted with a dog. Upland game hunters use dogs to flush birds. Waterfowl hunters use them to retrieve downed birds. Rabbit. Squirrel. Deer. Bobcat. Coyote. Raccoon. Bear. Fox. Plenty of folks use dogs (and horses or mules) to hunt those species. It's a helluva lot of work, requiring an extraordinary amount of training and effort to train one's dog (and horse or mule), in addition to preparation and practice with a weapon.

Bow hunters - you know - that's a pretty freakin' difficult method of hunting. I never knew much about it until recently. It requires a great deal more preparation, training and effort than other forms. I don't personally care for that method - but by learning more about it I have developed a greater appreciation for it.

Hunting over bait or a food plot - well, I can see how that would cause people concern. It concerns me because of CWD. But I'm also concerned about anyone feeding wildlife for the same reason. I think the NH game department even has a pamphlet they give out advising people to NOT feed wildlife because of disease transmission.

What is good about bait is that it allows the hunter to harvest game in areas in which there are few roads or areas in which to track and retrieve downed game. Maybe the area is surrounded by no trespassing signs. Or there is only one road into the area, and the hunter does not own an ATV, hates them, or does not have the equipment he needs to take the game out of the woods. Or the hunter is concerned about being able to take a safe enough shot. (One reason for stands is that the hunter shoots down instead of across - a safer shot) Or the hunter is trying to draw game away from roads, houses, or other areas. There can be many reasons. Including a lazy hunter.

There's a heck of a lot of misinformation about hunting, just like there is about horses. How many people insist that riding isn't exercise because the horse does all the work and you just sit there? Ever try and explain to a nonhorseperson why you're a bit out of breath and tired after a horse show?

Yup - they'll make fun of you, say you're being lazy, or worse - say you're being cruel to the horse - pointing to the "drool" coming out of its mouth as proof.

county
Dec. 16, 2008, 04:14 PM
Here in Mn. its illegal to bait deer when hunting we'd love to get it illegal to feed them also. Its also illegal for dogs to chase deer their shot on sight no questions asked also the owner of the dog can be fined.

pAin't_Misbehavin'
Dec. 16, 2008, 04:18 PM
Its also illegal for dogs to chase deer their shot on sight no questions asked also the owner of the dog can be fined.
:confused: So no deer-hunting with dogs, then? Why is that?

county
Dec. 16, 2008, 04:22 PM
To many dogs chase, run down and kill deer here when the snow gets deep.

county
Dec. 16, 2008, 04:24 PM
Also here in Mn. theres very little open area where a dog would be useful the vast majority of deer shot are by hunters sitting still not driving them. We drive some corn feilds and swamps but for the most part the deer come to us not us to them or a dog to them.

JSwan
Dec. 16, 2008, 04:25 PM
county -

Deer hunting with dogs is kind of a southern thing. I don't know that this form of hunting makes sense in most parts of the US. The dogs are used much like upland game hunters use their dogs - to flush game. In the case of deer, the thickets, bottoms and other habitat deer frequent are what caused this form of hunting to develop - the habitat is dense and hard for hunters to get into. In my state, the western part of the state is closed to the use of dogs (this goes back to the early 1900's when deer were scarce). The eastern part had a higher deer population so the use of dogs continued. Even though half the state is closed to the use of dogs - this method accounts for half the deer harvest in this state. If it wasn't for the deer dogs - the deer population would be worse than it is. We've also started an urban archery program, and there is a group called Suburban Whitetail Management http://www.swmnv.com/ that matches bow hunters with suburban residents having deer problems.

You would not believe the number of deer here. You'd think the number of coyotes would have had some impact - but nope. Not than I can see, anyway.

county
Dec. 16, 2008, 04:32 PM
The deer population in Mn. is higher then at any time in history this years hunt was down a little the past 3 years were a record harvest each year. We've had 7 straight winters that have been warm and well below average snow. A hard winter here kills more deer then any hunting season on record mostly due to does aborting their fawns. Also deep snow covers up food sources mainly popular tree branches can't be reached and logging slows way down in heavy snow areas so trees aren't cut down providing easy access to branchs. In farming areas with little snow deer have easy access to corn, beans and alfalfa.

Theres no wildlife species more adaptable to urban sprawl then whitetail deer they even beat out coyotes and canadian geese.

TroubleInHighC_2
Dec. 16, 2008, 04:44 PM
Wow. That's not only pretty harsh, it's a complete misrepresentation of hunting in North America. It's also not very open minded, since it appears that you don't know much about hunting or sportsmen.

For everyone who complains about a particular incident, one thing always stands out.

What you are usually describing is a criminal in the act of committing a crime, not lawful hunting.
When the incident described is not a criminal act, it's usually either stereotyping, or the person is not familiar with a particular practice (and the reasons for it). Or, all they've been exposed to is animal rights type information, and those folks play fast and loose with the truth.

So let's try some facts.

The "hunters" that many of you hate so much are responsible for the creation of the North American Wildlife Conservation Model. Yes, sportsmen created the concept of conservation in North America (including Canada). Ethical people, including Aldo Leopold, saw the destruction of habitat and wildlife due to market gunners, clear cutting, and extinction of species and were appalled.

This Model is unique in the history of Mankind. No other nation has this ethic - it was born in America and is strongly supported to this day. It is the wildlife "bill of rights" if you will, and is the basis for wildlife policy and management in the US.

Here is some information for you. http://www.rmef.org/Hunting/HuntersConservation/

http://www.bcwf.bc.ca/documents/s=256/bcw1145413546908/

http://www.huntright.org/heritage/conservation.aspx

http://www.huntfairchase.com/

http://www.pope-young.org/

http://www.trcp.org/

http://www.aheia.com/

http://www.boone-crockett.org/huntingEthics/ethics_overview.asp?area=huntingEthics

Also note the extensive information on hunter ethics - this information is included in hunter safety education courses across the US. Anyone can take this course, you don't have to hunt. The course is free.

Early in the nation's history, we rejected the "Old World" notion that wildlife belonged to the landowner - and in the Old World that meant the gentry. In America, wildlife belongs to the public - and we all have the right to enjoy it in whatever form we choose. (hunting, birding, photography). Again - this is unique.

Every attempt to create parks, set aside land, restore wildnerness, restore wetlands or other habitat - ALL of that is almost exclusively funded or advocated for by hunters - and they do it even though they'll never be able to see (or hunt) the species and habitat that has been restored. They do it because they believe that conservation is important for its own sake.

Sportsmen willingly pay enormous taxes on the purchase of any sporting/hunting equipment, including ammunition. These taxes, which they vote on themselves, are used to restore habitat, and create and fund parks - including land and parks that horse people ride on. They ask nothing in return.

Sportsmen pay license fees, even to hunt on ANY public land - state or federal. Citizens do not purchase licenses at all. I may never hunt on that land - but I pay the fee just the same. And I write the check with a smile on my face.

Same with duck stamps. Any of you know what those are? This is in addition to any license fees - you have to purchase stamps from the state and the feds. I write that check with a smile on my face too.

All that money, and more, is used to protect the land, restore habitat, and ensure ALL Americans (and Canadians) have the ability to enjoy the wonders of the natural world.

When you ride your horse on a trail, when you drive past beautiful farms with protected riparian areas, when you enjoy clean water or clean air, when you visit a park, see wolves, elk, or any other species....

You have sportsmen to thank for that. We probably don't even hunt the species you have the privilege of viewing, but you can bet your bottom dollar that we helped protect that species.

Deer hunting is crucial on the east coast. In some areas it's combined with other strategies to help control the deer population. There are more deer now than when Jamestown was founded. CWD is a threat to not only the deer and elk population, but it may also pose a risk to cattle. We MUST not let that disease make its way into our food chain. Sportsmen fully support mandatory sampling of harvested animals. Deer are also responsible for the spread of Lyme Disease - a disease that in some parts of the country is almost an epidemic. The CDC has pretty scary numbers on that. Deer/auto collisions cost the public a tremendous amount of money.

No ethical sportsman supports those who break our game laws, or who hunt or behave in an irresponsible manner. But we also ask the public to refrain from painting us all with a broad brush, and to learn about the hows and whys of hunting before forming an opinion. There may be a good reason a hunter hunts over bait or a food plot in your area. What you witness may or may not be a criminal act. If hunting occurs in your area, your livestock need to become accustomed to the sounds of gunfire. Chances are local hunters would be happy to work with you.

And the next time you go out and ride on public or private land, and you see beautiful birds, healthy streams, or gorgeous wetlands.... thank a hunter.

Sorry for the long-winded post but I get tired of the same old song - usually written by nice folks who simply don't have complete information.

JSwan, from a fellow hunter--THANK YOU FOR AN EXCELLENT POST. Well done!

dalpal
Dec. 16, 2008, 04:46 PM
Well, I don't care for hunting over bait but you do realize that ambushing one's prey IS hunting. Predators ambush prey all the time - it is how they hunt. Heck - cats stalk and ambush cute widdle mousies. :lol:

There are different methods of hunting. Some people think hunting with a dog is lazy. I can guarantee you that people who say that have never hunted with a dog. Upland game hunters use dogs to flush birds. Waterfowl hunters use them to retrieve downed birds. Rabbit. Squirrel. Deer. Bobcat. Coyote. Raccoon. Bear. Fox. Plenty of folks use dogs (and horses or mules) to hunt those species. It's a helluva lot of work, requiring an extraordinary amount of training and effort to train one's dog (and horse or mule), in addition to preparation and practice with a weapon.

Bow hunters - you know - that's a pretty freakin' difficult method of hunting. I never knew much about it until recently. It requires a great deal more preparation, training and effort than other forms. I don't personally care for that method - but by learning more about it I have developed a greater appreciation for it.

Hunting over bait or a food plot - well, I can see how that would cause people concern. It concerns me because of CWD. But I'm also concerned about anyone feeding wildlife for the same reason. I think the NH game department even has a pamphlet they give out advising people to NOT feed wildlife because of disease transmission.

What is good about bait is that it allows the hunter to harvest game in areas in which there are few roads or areas in which to track and retrieve downed game. Maybe the area is surrounded by no trespassing signs. Or there is only one road into the area, and the hunter does not own an ATV, hates them, or does not have the equipment he needs to take the game out of the woods. Or the hunter is concerned about being able to take a safe enough shot. (One reason for stands is that the hunter shoots down instead of across - a safer shot) Or the hunter is trying to draw game away from roads, houses, or other areas. There can be many reasons. Including a lazy hunter.

There's a heck of a lot of misinformation about hunting, just like there is about horses. How many people insist that riding isn't exercise because the horse does all the work and you just sit there? Ever try and explain to a nonhorseperson why you're a bit out of breath and tired after a horse show?

Yup - they'll make fun of you, say you're being lazy, or worse - say you're being cruel to the horse - pointing to the "drool" coming out of its mouth as proof.


LOL...yep, you are right JSwan...never thought of it that way. I just couldn't imagine what the thrill is to dump corn all over the ground and go sit on my arse for hours in a deer stand waiting for one to peak out of the woods.

Now I have to say, my golden/shepherd mix is one hell of a hunter....she can flush out deer in the barn hayfields, she doesn't need any corn to help her. :lol:

I don't mind hunting, heck..I love to eat venison myself.....but we do have some true yahoo hunters in our area who shoot first and think later.

TroubleInHighC_2
Dec. 16, 2008, 04:48 PM
I believe hunting is an atavistic urge in some men, the same way shopping is in women. Men feel the need to "provide", and women feel a need to "gather"

uhm....I'm a woman, and I hunt....of course, I shop too...particularly at any tack shops.... :D

danceronice
Dec. 16, 2008, 04:55 PM
Geez, I *never* stalked. Ground blinds (I'm terrified of heights so no tree stand for me) and my dad, who rifle-hunts, uses a blind in our hayfield. Everybody where I live hunts from a blind. (They better not be rifle-hunting from a tree-stand, though, as that's illegal.) Even when Dad's turkey-hunting, he's sitting under a tree. We like to kid that when he goes out and still-hunts (walk/stop, which spooks the deer and flushes them) he just wants an excuse to spend all day walking in the woods as he never gets anything doing that. (And he always starts doing this AFTER he fills his antlerless tag and has a deer in the freezer.)

And even though you're TECHNICALLY supposed to call animal control, if dogs are spotted chasing deer, someone shoots them. I had the misfortune once to see and hear two dogs pin a deer in the creek. Deer make a screaming sound kind of like a goat's call, did you know? Unfortunately we were packing to leave and by the time dad got the .22 out and loaded the dogs had taken off--we tracked them through the woods but didn't see them. It's not a big jump from chasing deer to other livestock, either. A friend's neighbor even hired a kid to go looking for the dogs who packed up and attacked her while she was riding--they went after her and her 16hh horse! The horse was okay but had scars and had a long layup while his legs recovered. I'm not a fan of letting dogs run deer. Coon dogs, flushing/pointing/retrieving bird-dogs or rabbit dogs are one thing. Teaching them to take off after large hoofstock generally doesn't lead to a well-behaved dog.

MistyBlue
Dec. 16, 2008, 04:56 PM
dalpal...deer are commonly hunted by ambush. Some use tree stands, others by squatting in a spot. Believe me...most wold prefer to be walking and moving...sitting completely and utterly still in icy temps for hours on end is painful. And the least movement causes any deer to leave very quickly.
It's next to impossible to hunt deer by tracking and then chasing them down on foot. It's also a ton more stressful for the deer to be followed for a long time and then chased down. They're in fear the entire time. Hunting from a stationary position is easier on the deer and harder on the hunter actually. A good hunter finds deer trails and knows how and where to hunker down near them and wait...deer just go about their normal activities and then one will drop from being shot. A lot less stress for the deer.
Yes, deer are graceful lovely looking creatures. But in reality this isn't Disney and whitetail are so ridiculously overpopulated now that many states have organized large hunts to knock down numbers. For the good of the deer and the ecosytem...not just to kill for fun. Deer have flourished in populated areas...they do much better now than they ever have. Which has cruel and gruesome side effects such as mass starvation in the winter...that is an unnecesary and painful and long death for them and they're starving in the thousands due to there being more deer than food. We have so many excess deer here in CT that's it's normal for me to have to hit my horn in my own driveway to get them out of the way so I can get to my house. They change their trails due to weather patterns...when it's really cold with snow on the ground I can sit in my house and count about 60 deer cutting across my yard on a daily basis.
Its much more humane to hunt them and to do it from a stationary position than it is to "live and let live" or try to chase them all day hoping to get close enough for a shot.
J Swan...coyote populations will rise with more deer around but coyotes still don't count healthy deer as normal prey. The coyotes increase due to more deer getting injured by cars and accidents and becoming prey then...injured deer are on coyote menus. Healthy ones rarely are. If you see a deer broought down by coyote you can almost bet it was sick or injured before the coyote got to it.

dalpal
Dec. 16, 2008, 05:06 PM
Geez, I *never* stalked. Ground blinds (I'm terrified of heights so no tree stand for me) and my dad, who rifle-hunts, uses a blind in our hayfield. Everybody where I live hunts from a blind. (They better not be rifle-hunting from a tree-stand, though, as that's illegal.) Even when Dad's turkey-hunting, he's sitting under a tree. We like to kid that when he goes out and still-hunts (walk/stop, which spooks the deer and flushes them) he just wants an excuse to spend all day walking in the woods as he never gets anything doing that. (And he always starts doing this AFTER he fills his antlerless tag and has a deer in the freezer.)

And even though you're TECHNICALLY supposed to call animal control, if dogs are spotted chasing deer, someone shoots them. I had the misfortune once to see and hear two dogs pin a deer in the creek. Deer make a screaming sound kind of like a goat's call, did you know? Unfortunately we were packing to leave and by the time dad got the .22 out and loaded the dogs had taken off--we tracked them through the woods but didn't see them. It's not a big jump from chasing deer to other livestock, either. A friend's neighbor even hired a kid to go looking for the dogs who packed up and attacked her while she was riding--they went after her and her 16hh horse! The horse was okay but had scars and had a long layup while his legs recovered. I'm not a fan of letting dogs run deer. Coon dogs, flushing/pointing/retrieving bird-dogs or rabbit dogs are one thing. Teaching them to take off after large hoofstock generally doesn't lead to a well-behaved dog.

Nope...my dog has never once gone after a horse and she's 7 years old....she is afraid of them. ;) But when we go out into the hayfield she will flush out deer. It isn't illegal here, I know many people who do hunt with dogs.

cloudyandcallie
Dec. 16, 2008, 05:20 PM
oh gee, my father hunted all his life, that's 91 years, giving up some for childhood and the last 2 yrs of his life, and he never hunting deer with dogs or a stand or bait. He went out into the woods and walked and sat and worked for the deer.

Hunting dogs in the old south were setters and pointers. Daddy had Llwellyn setters for dove and quail, and didn't use dogs for duck cause of the gators.

Southern plantation hunting in Georgia and South Carolina was not for having dogs do all the work. Hunting was called a "sport" and sport involved not acting like an moron.

But then my father did say that most hunters were drunk dangerous (____) who would shot at anything that moved, including other hunters wearing orange.

Cleveland Amory was right.

It's a scare tactic, to say that first "they" will come for the hunters, then for the fox hunters then for gasp, the gun owners. If people want to hunt, they should lease land where they can run their dogs for miles, and kill their deer and sit in their tree stands and by the side of the road drinking while they wait to blast away.

Everyone should go walk under deer stands and note the new growth of green, from the corn and oats and those big bags of deer "bait" in the hunting stores. And note the salt licks right over there too.

Hunters need to respect the rights of land owners and people who do not hunt. If you don't, there will be more restrictions, and rightly so.
So stay off other people's property, lease land to pursue whatever it is that you call hunting and don't flame the people who worry that y'all will blast away at them, their horses and their dogs.

pAin't_Misbehavin'
Dec. 16, 2008, 05:22 PM
It's not a big jump from chasing deer to other livestock, either. A friend's neighbor even hired a kid to go looking for the dogs who packed up and attacked her while she was riding--they went after her and her 16hh horse! The horse was okay but had scars and had a long layup while his legs recovered. I'm not a fan of letting dogs run deer. Coon dogs, flushing/pointing/retrieving bird-dogs or rabbit dogs are one thing. Teaching them to take off after large hoofstock generally doesn't lead to a well-behaved dog.

Well, I can only speak from personal experience, but the timid little hounds our deerhunters use would no more chase my horses than attack me.:lol: Heck, when the occasional hound gets lost and spends the night on my farm, I have to leave her supper way out in the yard and go back into the house before she'll even creep up on her kibble.

The hunters only use the hounds to flush deer - they don't savage the deer. Now my little paint horse, OTOH, hates deer with a passion. He'll chase 'em right out of his pasture as soon as he sees 'em - probably for fear they might eat some of his grass - and I bet he'd beat 'em up if he could catch 'em.:yes:

And I know a whole lot of cattle dog people who'd disagree with your last statement.:winkgrin:

Rebmik
Dec. 16, 2008, 05:29 PM
Hmmmm could get really long winded about this, but don't feel like typing that much.
I think our crappy experience with hunters reflects current society.
People just don't respect themselves, others people, land, etc.
20 years on 500 acres in Va THE ISSUES WITH DEER HUNTERS HAVE GOTTEN WORSE. PERIOD. ZERO respect. Used to allow hunting until the 2 that were permitted turned into 8, with tree stands all over the place.
Now dogs run deer all Sat. and Sunday day and night.
Hunters used to call or come to main house to ask to look for dogs, now it's an entitlement, screw you attitude, as their dogs run deer through my horse and cow pastures.
I'm not stereotyping, this is the way it is here. I have friends male and female that deer hunt. I tell them the same thing and usually they agree.
Respect and consideration for others and their property is not the majority around here anymore.
Sad:cry:

JSwan
Dec. 16, 2008, 05:53 PM
I simply do not know what in the he** is going on with the deer dog people in Virginia but I tell you what - I know what you're talking about.

Time to give those folks a broom - and tell them to clean house. They've pissed everyone off - including their most ardent supporters. Don't get me started or I might start frothing. Sad thing is - there ARE good and ethical people among them - but for some reason the bowhunter/deerdog thing is starting to resemble the Hatfield and McCoy feud. Now both groups are just being a**holes. It's a tremendous disservice to the entire sporting community - as well as the general public. It's just sad.

News flash to any of these idiots - the South is NOT going to rise again. Deal with it!

cloudyandcallie - I don't know what your background is but if you have never heard of deer hunting with dogs in the south I'm astonished. It is not as common as it used to be but it is still very much a common form of hunting deer in the south - more popular in certain types of habitat - swamps, bottoms, thickets.

wendy
Dec. 16, 2008, 05:54 PM
in theory I'm all for hunting, we have way too many deer. In actual practice? the deer hunters are all drunk rude careless idiots. Running around with guns, trespassing, shooting anything that moves. You can't even call it sport, or something that requires skill cause our local deer are brain-damaged or something and are stupid beyond belief. It's a bloody slaughter dangerous to everyone. I wish they'd ban it and just send out skilled professionals to thin the deer population.

blton9th
Dec. 16, 2008, 05:57 PM
Hunters need to respect the rights of land owners and people who do not hunt. If you don't, there will be more restrictions, and rightly so.
So stay off other people's property, lease land to pursue whatever it is that you call hunting and don't flame the people who worry that y'all will blast away at them, their horses and their dogs.

I totally agree CC! A couple of rotten hunters have totally made me sour to hunters.

JSwan
Dec. 16, 2008, 05:59 PM
J Swan...coyote populations will rise with more deer around but coyotes still don't count healthy deer as normal prey. The coyotes increase due to more deer getting injured by cars and accidents and becoming prey then...injured deer are on coyote menus. Healthy ones rarely are. If you see a deer broought down by coyote you can almost bet it was sick or injured before the coyote got to it.

Landowners here have been told the coyote will reduce the deer population. I didn't hold my breath. Like you, I know predators weed out the sick, the old, the young. Heck - those I can hit with my .22 without spilling my beer. :winkgrin:

The state is considering a statewide bounty. Around here, they've become more than a nuisance - they've become a threat to pets, livestock and local wildlife. I like coyote and don't want them harmed but this is just getting ridiculous.

Rebmik
Dec. 16, 2008, 06:01 PM
Guarantee you...drive through any rural area in VA this Sat.
You won't get far without seeing pickup truck after pickup truck parked barely off the side of the road, sitting in the truck or around waiting for the dogs to run a deer to them.
2 Saturdays ago we had throughout the day and night, over 20 deer hounds in different groups running deer. Finally grabbed 2 and called owner to come get 'em. I'm not a "PETA person" (not that there is anything wrong with it if it's your thing), but this dogs were emaciated, not just missing last night's dinner kind of emaciated. It seems like the people that deer hunt with rabbit beagles are a little better sort.

Kementari
Dec. 16, 2008, 06:11 PM
I lived in MI for many years, too, and while we knew there were people trespassing during hunter season, they didn't cause problems other than our nervousness. I rode all hunting season there, too. And in Idaho. And Virginia.

I think there are a few Really Bad People out there hunting, and because of them people are afraid - whereas in reality, even the Somewhat Bad People (not to mention the Good People) aren't nearly as dangerous as we fear they are.

(Seriously hoping I'm not jinxing myself here... :winkgrin:)

I'm not a hunter (I despise guns and killing things, so that puts hunting right out of the picture ;)), but I can respect responsible hunters nonetheless. I even recovered - in time - from walking into the barn (back in VA) one day and looking up to see several dead deer hanging from the rafters. :lol: And just as I'd like people who don't know ME to give ME the benefit of the doubt rather than lumping me with all other horse people (or women or northerners or...), I'll do the same for the hunters.

And, for the record, I've met many snowmobilers out riding, too, and have always found them incredibly polite, stereotypes notwithstanding. Again, I'm sure there are some snowmobilers who are Really Bad People, but I'd rather focus on the GOOD ones - who, in my experience at least, far outnumber the bad ones. :yes:

theoldgreymare
Dec. 16, 2008, 06:13 PM
seeing all of the animals that were used as target practice this time of year really makes you upset.

Yesterday hundreds of Canadian geese settled in a nearby corn field to eat. We saw them fly over our farm and took some time to admire them while they flew to the nearby field. They were a mile or two away but the noise was almost deafening there were so many of them. We saw the local yahoo hunter drive by our farm at mach 1 and knew where he was headed. I am not exagerrating when I tell you that there were over 50 shots fired. I don't know what the limit is on geese but I would imagine this nut case was well over it. I can also guarantee that there are dead geese laying in that field (I was too PO'd to drive over and look). That is the kind of hunter I detest.

Kementari
Dec. 16, 2008, 06:14 PM
News flash to any of these idiots - the South is NOT going to rise again. Deal with it!

:lol:

When I lived in VA, I always wished someone made a bumper sticker: "The War is over. You lost."

tkhawk
Dec. 16, 2008, 06:15 PM
Healthy deer don't have much to worry from a coyote. But a mountain lion-they can bring down an elk.. In a lot of our areas, the deer population is actually going down. The lions eat about 1 a week..
But I guess where I live I don't have to worry about hunters-we don't have the woods-coastal desert-so not much to hide. But still animals that are hunted at least get to live out their lives in the wild unlike the ones crammed into factory farms..

county
Dec. 16, 2008, 06:17 PM
CC what you describe is exactly what I think horseback riders should do. BUY OR LEASE YOUR OWN DAMN LAND TO RIDE ON AND DESTROY!!!!

JSwan
Dec. 16, 2008, 10:01 PM
I'm not a hunter (I despise guns and killing things, so that puts hunting right out of the picture ;)), but I can respect responsible hunters nonetheless. I even recovered - in time - from walking into the barn (back in VA) one day and looking up to see several dead deer hanging from the rafters. :lol: And just as I'd like people who don't know ME to give ME the benefit of the doubt rather than lumping me with all other horse people (or women or northerners or...), I'll do the same for the hunters.


Thanks, Kementari. All any reasonable person can ask for is mutual respect. Any group is going to have its nutcases or idiots - all I can hope for is that they don't procreate. :lol: I'm a native Virginian and love the south, but geez. Dixie is a paper cup.

For the people that think hunters should be forced to lease land to hunt on - I'll just assume that none of you read anything I linked to. Links that describe the history and evolution of the conservation ethic in the US, and the difference between the US and the rest of the world. Of all the citizens of the US that use public and private land - only sportsmen pay any fees. And we pay. And pay and pay and pay. The Pittman-Robertson. The Dingell-Johnson Act. The Dingell-Goodling Act. Money that is funneled through US Fish and Wildlife's Federal Aid program to state agencies. Billions of dollars. Since the adoption of the Wildlife Conservation Model, every species hunted in the US has increased in number. Species on the brink of extinction are now plentiful - including bison. Antelope. Turkey. Elk. Various species of waterfowl.

Do you know how helped pay for my fencing? Ducks Unlimited. Ducks Unlimited gave me thousands of dollars to protect the waterway and restore a riparian area. No waterfowler hunts that land. They did not demand that I allow hunting, nor did they ask me my position on hunting, or if I opposed gun ownership. DU just wants habitat to be restored. It is restored - and wood duck now nest there. I saw two bald eagles in my back pasture the other day. No "horse group" helped me.


Perhaps it's time horse owners paid up too. Sportsmen have spent the last 100 years making sure you had parks and open space to ride on. Maybe it's your turn.

How about you start paying license fees and obtain permits before using a park? How about special fees to repair the damage horse's do to water crossings? Poop cleanup? How many of you would happily pay high taxes on horse feed, hay and tack, and keep voting to increase those taxes because it's so important to self fund conservation? Why should horse trails exist in parks when there are so many nonhorse people demanding to use the same land? Ever try and advocate for horse trails at a planning session? You don't really need that show venue - taxpayer money is better spent elsewhere. Better yet - stay out of parks altogether. Stay off the roads, too, your horse might cause an accident and kill people.

Go out and lease a thousand acres and trail ride on your own land. And when you fall off and your horse runs off onto neighboring land, you can deal with a pissed off landowner who is tired of snooty horse people ruining his lawn and not respecting his property rights. Maybe he'll shoot your horse. Maybe he'll sue the owner of the land you're leasing to make him stop leasing the land to horseback riders. Then where will you go?

county
Dec. 16, 2008, 10:08 PM
Alot of them would go back to tearing up private land. Thats if they ever shelled out anything to lease land to ride on my guess is few would.

tkhawk
Dec. 16, 2008, 10:22 PM
Yeah horses on public land has been an issue here. A lot of groups have to band together to fight. I do my bit-always try to leave the land as I found it, clean poop, always friendly with people I meet on the trail. A couple of years ago one of the hiking groups tried to ban horses from the backcountry . I am not sure of the exact details, it was a while ago. But we have a lot of groups that fight for trail rights.

I guess horses like hunters are a diminishing breed. Of course in CA we have 5000+ mountain lions-so at an average of one deer a week for each of them-that takes it toll on the deer population. But from what I hear hunting has being going down . But I don't know -I have ridden all over-never ever worried about hunting season. Maybe our terrain-we can usually see miles out ahead in all directions-so not much chance of mistakes. I don't know-not that much of a controversy as it seems to be in the N.E-maybe we have so much free land available and the terrain? It might be different in the N. Cal with a lot of trees-but w ehave so much forest/open land so maybe that minimizes it?

Donella
Dec. 16, 2008, 10:36 PM
LOL they created conservation laws for themselves. You don't love something and want to chase it down and destroy it at the same time. Sorry.
I don't even care if I seem narrow minded. I usually am not..I just think there is something wrong with a human being who gets some sort of thrill out of commiting this kind of violence. Isn't there enough violence and suffering in the world?

Maybe I am living in dreamland, I am just sick of it and I cannot for the life of me relate to such a strong desire to terrify and kill a defenceless animal. And that is the bottom line for me.

county
Dec. 16, 2008, 10:41 PM
People eat meat, always have, always will, hunting gives the animal a chance the steak you buy in a store never gets one. And hunting isn't destroying its manageing without hunting millions would die of disease and starvation.

Donella
Dec. 16, 2008, 11:00 PM
People eat meat, always have, always will, hunting gives the animal a chance the steak you buy in a store never gets one. And hunting isn't destroying its manageing without hunting millions would die of disease and starvation.

Well I sure don't eat it or buy it... I supposed I have just been so soured by all the encounters I have had with hunters. About 5 and all of them have severely disturbed me.

county
Dec. 16, 2008, 11:09 PM
Oh for sure not everyone eats it nor likes hunters same as not everyone has had good experiances with horseback riders. I'm sure most are fine just not the majority that ride on my land except those I invite.

JSwan
Dec. 17, 2008, 11:00 AM
Well, since what you describe has no basis in reality there is no reasoning with you. You also evidently did not read any of the links I provided, because conservation was not invented so we could continue to hunt. How you describe hunting and our motivation is also not accurate. Not even close.

Modern conservation came about because sportsmen saw the destruction, the wanton waste from market gunners, and that the lack of regulation and oversight that was causing the decline, even extinction of species. And not species they hunted.

I don't conserve my land so I can hunt. I do it because it's the right thing to do. I advocate for conservation not so I can hunt, but because it is the right thing to do.

The bottom line is that Nature is a beautiful and wonderous thing, worthy of preservation. You do not want to be part of Nature. Great. Sit in an air conditioned condo if that's what makes you happy. That's ok. If you want to be a vegetarian, that's great. I respect your choices and do not think less of you.

Immersing one's self in the natural world is an incredible and humbling experience. One develops a profound respect for wildlife, has a deeper appreciation for the impact Man has made on the soil, the water, and the air, and has a greater respect for life. And death. There are reasons that cultures developed hunting rituals, and reasons that those rituals still exist today. Taking life, even for sustenance, is a moment that should be observed with respect and compassion, as well as reflection on the act.

So many of you get so hysterical about industrial agriculture, the way animals are raised for food. Many of you insist on eating only expensive organic food, certified humane meat, and insist that no matter how slaughter is done, it's still inhumane.

And very few of you have every seen it for yourself. You have no idea what the world is like outside your suburban or urban house. You don't know how to raise your own food, how to preserve it, or how to kill it humanely. You extol the virtues of organic meat, yet condemn the hunter for supplying his own truly organic and healthy meat - wild animals. He also provides a tremendous service to the public, and pays for it. And what he gets in return is accusations that he's a monster - all for taking personal responsibility for his food - rather than purchasing shrink wrapped mystery meat in a grocery store.

Users of public land demand all sorts of nice things. Evidently they will melt if they come into contact with dirt, so they need multi-million dollar boardwalks in order to get around. Sportsmen paid for that - non hunters did not. Want to rent a kayak? Who subsidized that? Sportsmen did. You want interpretive signs and kiosks? Sportsmen paid for that - you didn't. How about guided tours since no one knows how to identify a bird these days. Sportsmen pay for that, even though many of us don't need a field guide at all.

Puhleeze - give me a break. Sportsmen have paid billions upon billions of dollars for years - and we've derived little direct benefit except we can still hunt for a month or two out of the year - and maybe only on a couple of Saturday's for a few hours. The public and wildlife have derived the greatest benefit.

If you want to know who is ruining the natural world, look in the mirror. It's not sportsmen responsible for polluting the water, running over wildlife in the roads, and trashing the land. It's people who don't care. Some of those people may call themselves hunters, though they don't deserve that title. But most of the people who don't care are just average citizens, most of whom live in urban areas and have completely lost touch with nature.


I think that is very sad.

Aw hell, never mind. Can't open a closed mind.





LOL they created conservation laws for themselves. You don't love something and want to chase it down and destroy it at the same time. Sorry.
I don't even care if I seem narrow minded. I usually am not..I just think there is something wrong with a human being who gets some sort of thrill out of commiting this kind of violence. Isn't there enough violence and suffering in the world?

Maybe I am living in dreamland, I am just sick of it and I cannot for the life of me relate to such a strong desire to terrify and kill a defenceless animal. And that is the bottom line for me.

riverbell93
Dec. 17, 2008, 12:04 PM
The bottom line is that Nature is a beautiful and wonderous thing, worthy of preservation. You do not want to be part of Nature. Great. Sit in an air conditioned condo if that's what makes you happy. That's ok. If you want to be a vegetarian, that's great. I respect your choices and do not think less of you.

I don't share either position on hunting - that it's wonderful or that it's incomprehensible. I won't be a hunter for a variety of reasons, but I'm not a vegetarian either and I do understand the appeal of hunting for some people. But dismissing the non-hunters and the type of people who are typically non-hunters as kayaking, condo-owning twits who need boardwalks? Come on, that's just the flip side of saying hunters are all drunken freaks who like to kill baby animals. I know people do that to hunters a lot, but you guys both should be and can afford to be more pleasant - you're in the minority and you're armed;)

We have two sorts of hunters in my town - the psychos who like camo and the older guys who like to get out into the woods. I don't particularly feel the need to wax lyrical about the old guys with their beagles and their labs - they're just guys with hobbies. I'm glad they quit hanging their deer and ducks on their front porches, but I'm content to live and let live. It's the psychos who makes me suspicious of hunters, and highly skeptical of the 'bow hunting is elite' schtick, as I know one nutcase who is a bow hunter. Highly skilled psychos are no more appealing than dunderheaded psychos.

JSwan
Dec. 17, 2008, 12:31 PM
But dismissing the non-hunters and the type of people who are typically non-hunters as kayaking, condo-owning twits who need boardwalks? Come on, that's just the flip side of saying hunters are all drunken freaks who like to kill baby animals. I know people do that to hunters a lot, but you guys both should be and can afford to be more pleasant - you're in the minority and you're armed;)



You misunderstand, I'm not dismissing or maligning any segment of society. Well, maybe the guys who yell, "The South will rise again" get on my nerves a little.

What I'm saying is that there are many ways for people to enjoy the outdoors. For some, they prefer the "observe from a distance", and like boardwalks and amenities. There's nothing wrong with it. But know who paid for it. How it came about. Why the park exists in the first place. Who thought it was important it be created. What wildlife has been preserved due to its creation.

The assertion was that hunter created conservation for his own benefit. That's not entirely true. The money paid by sportsmen is used to benefit everyone. And it's the public that looks down upon the people who created the beautiful places they now enjoy and demand for themselves. Much conservation money is used to restore habitat on PRIVATE land - land that no hunter will ever be permitted on.

What I take exception to is the notion that hunting is not a legitimate way to enjoy the outdoors, and that the hunter is morally deficient or a criminal. That argument is usually put forth by people who reside in urban areas - who are greatly disconnected from the land and the natural world.

The vast majority of hunters never bother anyone, never commit any illegal or unethical act, and are good stewards of the land. You never even know they are there - you just enjoy the fruits of their labor and generosity.

Criminals or unethical people can be found everywhere. In boardrooms, in classrooms, in the community, and in tree stands. While it's important to make sure those people are punished for their misdeeds, it's also important to distinguish them as the exception, not the rule.

Again, I have never known one good thing to come of stereotypes. The stereotypes that exist about homosexuals. About the disabled. About African-Americans. About Jews. About immigrants. About sportsmen. About Muslims. Stereotypes are founded upon ignorance and misunderstanding and hatred.

Nothing good can come of it.

tkhawk
Dec. 17, 2008, 01:17 PM
Funny, in CA usually the battles are hikers vs mtn bikes or horses vs. mtn bikes or everybody gang up on the mtn bikes or someonelse vs the horses. Rarely do we have a hunter vs anybody else battle. I have never ridden in an orange vest or to be honest even know when hunt season is. But we have a ton of open land. I just moved and I board right next to 2600 acres open land and within two hours drive , I have 100s of miles of public trails-state, county, city, national. Even the Pacific crest trail that starts from the Mexico border and ends in Canada border is pretty close to me-well the access to it. We have 100s of thousands of acres of open land to hunting-so maybe just wondering that is why we never get into each others crosshairs?

But on the conservation yes, maybe at least in the old days, hunters might have wanted to preserve game, but it did help in creating preserves. In India we still have tigers and lions . Mostly because the kings and the British were enthusiastic hunters and realized proper game management would help in presserving the hunt. If not probably most of the reserves would have been wiped out and we would have lost most of our animals except in some isolated pockets. In the old days photo tourism was not a viable entity to preserve reserves for animals. Nowadays photo tourists have overtaken hunters in most part. But still I think one must be thankful for their role in shaping preserves and conservatives. Generally the good hunters-not the drunk folks who do it for fun-seem to be the most knowledgeable about the cycle of life, the ebb and flow of things, the way the deer and other animals function. They do have a deep knowledge of the bush. Of course then we have the other kind who fly to Africa to go shoot a lion hand raised from a kitten and kept in an enclosure . They just go in, shoot it and get their photo and its head an dnow have a tall tale to tell of how they went to Africa to shoot a lion and here is their photo with the ferocious lion! But hey to each his own.

Animals live in the wild and it is the cycle of life. If not a hunter, it is going to be a mountain lion or a pack of wolves. It just is. I eat meat-venision, buffalo, elk, alligator, rattlesnake, rabbit, ostrich, phasant, quail-pretty much everything. I have no qualms about it-now horses, dogs and cats-that is just emotional reasons I won't eat them and I acknowledge they are the same. But otherwise I have no qualms eating a wild animal.. It is just the cycle of life-that has been going on since time immemorial. We too are part of it-that is why I love nature-when you go there, suddenly you become part of it and you actually realize it -that you are no diffrent it, and you to are part of the ebb and flow of life-of course I love going back to my downtown apt and shopping at the grocery store for food and drinking my water without worrying about a lion waiting in ambush to pounce on me everytime I go for a drink!! But it is what it is...
Now of course you do have the few crazies who enjoy killing for the sake of killing and have no compassion at all and just do it fun-but that is there everywhere...

Kementari
Dec. 17, 2008, 02:46 PM
It is possible to disagree with someone without believing that they and everyone like them are evil.

Don't like hunting? Fine, neither do I, honestly, but I've known plenty of damn fine people who hunted. Heck, find me someone out there whose every action I agree with, and I'll...I dunno...do something really crazy. :winkgrin: (I'm not too worried about the eventuality, to be honest.)

Hunters - and that most maligned group, OHRV users - DO pay for much of the land and infrastructure that those of us who ride, hike, bike, and ski enjoy so much. In most states, non-motorized trail/recreation users pay little if anything to use public lands (with the exception of designated park areas - but realize that the vast majority of public lands are not in parks). Over half the funding for NH's Fish and Game budget comes from licenses and fees paid by hunters and OHRV users. And the majority of that money goes to programs like wildlife management (specifically including non-game species), law enforcement, boating access, search & rescue, and public education.

Does it really matter WHY they are paying for it? Even if you believe their aims are entirely self-centered, the fact is the rest of us benefit, too. I don't know about you, but I'm pretty happy to know when I go climb Mt Washington that if some sort of accident befalls me, search & rescue will be there to help. I regularly (in the summer ;)) use a public boat launch. And when there was a deer stuck out on the ice last week, I'm pretty happy that Fish & Game didn't ask us to pool our pennies then and there to pay them to rescue it.

A little appreciation of our differences could go a long way in today's world.

Empressive Award
Dec. 17, 2008, 03:44 PM
I think horse people are always going to havea battle with non horse people...

riders vs bikers on trails...take the WO&D for instance.. how often do you see a horse and rider, rarely because its a respect battle.

hikers vs rider.. same thing

hunters vs horse owners... same thing.

foxhunting vs Animal Activists

its a lifestyle on both sides that built this country...

Either party is always going to think they have every bit of right to be there as the next. Not saying I knock one or the other. My family has been hunters for generations. Deer meat is a big part of our diet as well as other game. Because we are hunters, doesnt mean we are backwoods folk with no respect for the land or the other people/animals who inhabit it.

I'm also a horse owner, a very delicate bay horse owner. From a distance someone might think she was a deer at dusk. I board her in a huge pasture that backs to the Blue Ridge mountains and hundreds of acres of hunting property. Do I worry? Yes... but I see both sides of the arguement and thankfully we have some very nice people who hunt the property that also happen to be horse people too.

oh, and for all of those that live in the country try this one on for size. The town I live in just adopted a new Urban Bow Season, yes I said urban. and I live in a pretty decent sized town, where some homes have yards that back up to old farm fields or a hundred acres separates one main road from the next housing development. That means hunters are allowed to bow hunt within town limits, within neighborhoods, right in your backyard. I let my dog (GSP) out last night and she caught sight of the deer..which is unusual because shes a bird dogs and thinks nothing of deer, and I caught sight of the hunter at the same time and thankfully the hunter backed off, probably pissed him off that he missed his shot, but I'd have been more pissed if he shot my dog as she was chasing the deer.

So we now have just as many protests on both sides of the fence.

paulosey
Dec. 17, 2008, 04:27 PM
Well said, J Swan. It's sad and dangerous that so many people are living so far removed from nature and the source of their food. The strong dislike for the spring bear hunt in my Province, by people from large cities, eventually ended it. These people are not impacted by the loss of income direved by the hunt nor the bears, who are ever encroaching into their yards. I personally live with bears. I do not have a problem with bears and happily share my 100 acres with them. But let me tell you, they are getting more numerous and in some places even dangerous, and where they are becoming a problem, I believe the spring hunt should be reinstated. Those that live in suburbia will never understand, I fear.

chestnutmarebeware
Dec. 17, 2008, 05:05 PM
I used to live in Chester County (the Village of Glenmoore) and boarded my horses right up the road at an upscale housing development called Donomore Farms. Now there are fancy McMansions (with tons of kids) all over the place, and the boarding farm was the original Dutch house, bank barns and pastures that comprised the original Donomore Farm at tha back of the property.

Anyway, right after I moved from there to NE PA, I heard that a lovely Palomino pony named Sandy had been shot right in the middle of this subdivision. The bullet shattered his leg and he was euthanized. His little owner was heartbroken.

When we got to our new place, we were lucky to have a wonderful neighbor across the street who was not only a skilled and compassionate hunter, but was teaching his young son to be the same. We offered him exclusive rights to hunt the property, and I always let him know which horses were in which fields. He was very respectful and we had no problems—at least till he came home with the magnificent buck that used to hang around me when I threw out hay. I'd talk to him, and he seemed to like listening. I was very sad, as I was when the same neighbor came over that winter and announced that he'd taken care of my 'possum problem. The only problem was that the possum liked to come up on my front porch and keep my company while I fed him dry cat food. He was almost like a pet.

Oh well, it could have been a lot worse—at least the horses came out of the season alive and well! Although the blaze-orange duct tape I wrapped around them from head to foot may have helped as well! :lol:

danceronice
Dec. 17, 2008, 05:28 PM
I was very sad, as I was when the same neighbor came over that winter and announced that he'd taken care of my 'possum problem. The only problem was that the possum liked to come up on my front porch and keep my company while I fed him dry cat food. He was almost like a pet.



<Insert my usual virulent, EPM-killed-horse-fueled rant about possums and what should be done with them here>

That's call. Carry on with the hunting thread. Or just read JSwan's posts.

tkhawk
Dec. 17, 2008, 06:08 PM
If someone shot and killed my horse, I would be mad as hell. Maybe here it is a very rare occurance, but we have forest/open space/preserves bigger than some of the N.E states-so we have a lot of open space.
If she lost her possum-I can't stand them-but to her she knew it personally-that is not going to help your cause.

Wether you like it or not, hunters or horseback riders are in the minority. Here our biggest concern is our right to ride in the public lands. I was riding one of my usual parks , before I moved, the other day. The park is coastal and very rutted-more a clayey kind of soil. My mare was peeing on the trail. An old couple came up to me and said to me very gruffly-all these damn horses peeing is what is causing the ruts in the trails.:confused: Yeah right-10mi of ruts is cause by horses standing and peeing all over everyday. But you know I smiled and said no and said it was the soil and the rain and politely moved on. But the majority who often have no idea often latch on to some cause and want something banned so that they can protect their ecosystem. When you are in the minority, you have to fight for your rights and also acknowledge when you are wrong. If somebody shot at a horse by mistake-that is wrong-no question about it-and that person has every right to be mad.

It is the same as trail riding. If you don't train your horse and just bring it out on the trail and cause a wreck-you know I am going to blame you. By your actions, you are endagering yourself, your horse and all other horses on that trail . Enough wrecks and you know what they are not going to shut down the park to the hikers. I have had people pushing baby carraiges with babies, park their baby carraige in the middle when they saw us riding, then they bent over and walked away from the carraige and just as we passed the carraige , they snapped photo-I guess they wanted the ebautiful white horsey with their baby on trail. People do not know anything about horses-you have to take that into account. Start off with low human activity trails and slowly build and know your horse and increase the activity. If my horse hit the baby and injured it-you think they would blame them? Just think of the outrage-runaway horse tramples baby would be the headlines. Same thing with hunting-when accidents happen-you have to accept they have a right to be mad-even if it was somehow their mistake-they don't how to adapt-and unfortunately as a minority we have to adapt.

yellow-horse
Dec. 18, 2008, 12:46 AM
i reread the op's post and while its all well and good to embrace the hunter, she did say juveniles were on her property without her permission, someone was behind her barn shooting and the bow hunter she gave permission to bow hunt on her land was hunting with a rifle
while i respect folks who hunt safely, they also need to respect private property, no one has the right to trespass
and i like hunters, i used to bow hunt, my neighbors hunt and have permission to come on my property, they can bring friends for all i care, i like them, they're trustworthy and good neighbors but looking back at the 1st post, i think i'd be a little pissed off if folks were doing something i didn't give them permission to do on my property
most people don't accept atv's going around their property, folks jumping in their pond, strangers wandering through their pasture to pet the horses, kids having keg parties in the woods without permission from the land owner, to me this is a similar situation, it really wouldn't matter what it was, unles i gave permission and the folks were adhering to the limits i set, i'd want them off my property
i think the key is a matter of respect on both sides

Donella
Dec. 18, 2008, 01:44 AM
Jswan,
I do not live in an air conditioned appartment. I live on a farm and have raised everything from pigs to horses to chickens and have had an active part in wildlife rehab via my mother. We go out riding at the YAHA tinda ranch every year, in the heart of the Rocky Mountains in Banff national park.. A group of wildlife/nature enthusiasts have started an organization that promotes non destructive riding and camping in this area, to which my family belongs. I LOVE nature and wildlife but with that love does not come a desire to kill parts of it. When I see a deer or bear or bird in flight, in amoungst that incredibly breathtaking background, the last thing I want to do is destroy it. How do you look at something with such reverance and at the same time think it would look better cut up and hung on your livingroom wall? I am sorry if I have a hard time comprehending this..but I just do!:confused:

For that RARE hunter that truly wants to hunt to provide himself and his family with a humane and healthy source of meat, I highly respect that. However, that is not what I have observed in my area at least. The norm is a bunch of drunk dumbasses running around with loaded weapons. I am assuming they are drunk because of the things that they end up shooting (including that wonderful filly). If this true, organic kind of hunter were actually the norm, I would have NO problem with it whatsoever..in fact, I would prefer that people get their meat this way. It just isnt the norm..or even close to it.

JSwan
Dec. 18, 2008, 08:44 AM
If you're a farmer then you should know better.
. You think that chicken gets on a plate by walking over and laying on it?

You cannot assert that illegal behavior is "the norm" when you know nothing about hunting or hunters. Again, you are making gross generalizations based on stereotypes - that have no basis in reality. Your prejudice is obvious. What you're saying is that what YOU want to do is ok, but what other people want to do is not, so therefore they are lesser human beings. "Look how special I am I love Nature and it's so pretty only horseback riders and campers are worthy of looking at it". Give me a break.

To me, it is the same as saying all African Americans are horrible people that like to torture animals, and using Michael Vick and other criminals as proof. It's just stupid. And yet, evidently there are still plenty of people who think like that.

You are using ignorance and assumption to form your opinion of a segment of society you know nothing about. Even though I have posted links to information that could help educate you, and others, you insist on using inflammatory rhetoric to describe us and our motivation. And what in the hell are you talking about "hanging on the living room wall?" Again - ignorance and prejudice.

Have any of you clicked on one of those links and taken the time to read them? I noticed none of you asked questions about those sites. I have more sites if you're interested. This one is good http://www.ihea.com/

"Loving wildlife and nature" is great. However, your perception of nature and wildlife, and Man's place, appears to be different than mine. Using the word "dumbasses" to describe us is evidence of that.

A criminal is a criminal - whether that person kills a horse by being drunk and driving off the road into a pasture and killing a horse, or by being drunk and accidentally shooting the horse. The drunk driver is not representative of all people who drive cars, and neither is the drunk poacher representative of hunters.

The "norm" is hundreds of thousands of people you never know are even there. All of you continually reap the benefit of generations of people who were the first environmentalists - the ones who knew it was more important to preserve Nature rather than exploit it.

Get off the high horse and try educating yourself. In this day and age, there is simply NO excuse for such ignorance and prejudice.

paohatch
Dec. 18, 2008, 09:19 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've found the best way to keep out unwanted hunters is to have a few respectful hunters working your property. Hunters get territorial. And they're all armed. If you can find a few hunters who maybe live in a nearby city to hunt on your land and respect your property, that might help. I have a couple who hunt on my farm. This year alone, they've chased off three trespassers. And they know not to shoot the ponies, sheep, or chickens.

What you must remember, there are farmers that hate all horse people? Why you say? :confused: The few idiots and dolts who trample over young plants and race into beans/corn/wheat and ruin it for all of us...:(

Don't stereotype all hunters, don't let hunters stereotype all horse people, don't stereotype all farmers, don't stereotype all bicyclists (e.g. they're so rude and they like to scare horse people on purpose.. most are just ignorant!, LOL), don't stereotype all cars on the road on the way they react to horses and carriages.. some waive and smile.. some are jackasses and honk.. some are just ignorant!

county
Dec. 18, 2008, 09:26 AM
Yep most farmers around here hate horseback riders. Why? Because just as described the majority they see destroy their crops and have no respect for their property. Can't say the same about hunters, ATV riders, or snowmobilers they respect the land here. Theres been no reason to care about horse people or give them any respect. I raise horses but fully understand why land owners here don't want horse people around.

MistyBlue
Dec. 18, 2008, 10:05 AM
Donella...there are more responsible sober hunters in your area than drunken fools. But...the average person will never *see* a good hunter. That's like trying to find a good sniper...they're there but you aren't going to see them or know they're there.
The drunks and newbie hunters are as easy to spot as a zebra in with a herd of horses...so many times people assume they are the norm when they really aren't.
Also...hunters aren't "destroying" wildlife. They're hunting them...culling out the excess and bringing home meat. "Destruction" of wildlife happens more from development, strip mining and believe it or not from "scenic" areas that get way too much human traffic who are trying to "enjoy the wildlife." I can wander through the woods and it takes me seconds to pick out where hikers tramped through, dog walkers, trail riders, runners, mountain bikers, campers, etc...it takes me a while longer and more work to pick out a hunter's trail and even longer to find their ground or tree stands. They don't disturb the ecosystem or leave such obvious trails, rubbish, ruts, campfires, dropped items, dog or horse poop, broken plants, etc behind.
Tracking skills are not needed at all to find out where those people have been...racking skills are needed to figure out where a hunter has been. They don't ruin where they've been. And even though most of the non-hunters enjoying the woods don't leave permanant markers...enough human traffic all the time certainly does. Erodes trails, fouls water sources, leaving human scent everywhere which does redirect all wildlife traffic, etc.

county
Dec. 18, 2008, 10:11 AM
Only takes me a few seconds to find where horseback riders have been. Open gates, livestock loose, beer cans laying on the ground, crops destroyed, total lack of respect for private property.

MistyBlue
Dec. 18, 2008, 10:30 AM
That would drive me nuts County.
However we don't have those issues here much in CT. So few people have big enough properties that we can't look out any window in the house and see the entire property. Hence few people ever trespass for trail riding...they tend to stick to trails in the state forests, etc. The few people who have larger acreage do get the occasional gate left open and beer cans left behind...but from ATV, dirtbike and snowmobile riders. Our trail riders rarely ever drink beer while riding. A few might have a flask...but those are usually organized hunters. I'd hazard a guess that most of our trail riders even refuse to leave manure on a trail...most hop off and kick it aside so people don't have to step in it later on.
All in all our horse trail riders are pretty good at not being PITAs and rarely if ever cut across private property. A few here and there new to areas may take a canter across someone's hay field...but they learn fast enough to never do that again. In CT if people get yelled at by a farmer or homeowner they tend to avoid that spot like the plague. They're not overly brave. :winkgrin:

yellow-horse
Dec. 18, 2008, 10:42 AM
I don't know, the way i was raised you just don't intentionally go on someone elses property without their permission to indulge your hobby, no matter what it is. Do we agree on that?

county
Dec. 18, 2008, 10:54 AM
Oh I think most people agree you don't trespass on that but many horse riders don't. There are alot of them that just don't have any respect for private property. I've been told by horse back riders " You have alot of land what do you care if we ride on it " also " well if you want your gates closed put a sign on them saying so how should we know " " why does it matter if we ride over some corn its not like theres not alot more in the feild " and my all time favorite " "were very rich people we could buy your piss ant farm and not even make a dent in our bank accounts " Well by all means that certainly gives you the right to ride where you want.

MistyBlue
Dec. 18, 2008, 11:02 AM
Got a two word solution for you County:
Potato Gun. :D

yellow-horse
Dec. 18, 2008, 11:08 AM
county, i know folks who do the same thing, they also hunt by the way and drive their atv's all over the place, which kinda is my point, some folks were raised right and others are just rude

mysaygrace
Dec. 18, 2008, 01:27 PM
Thank you Yellow Horse for rereading my post and agreeing with me. My post is not about hunters Vs. horseowners but it seems to be the note this thread has taken. I'm hurt that others sugest that I allow a responsible hunter to hunt my land to keep an eye on things, that the hunter's become territorial of "their" hunting area. What about the actual land owner, why is it when they become territorial they're labeled a bitch or @$$hole?! We've worked long & hard to afford what we have so why should be obligated to turn our back yard into a "public park"? And as far as us upsetting the first poster with our buidling in the country, before you judge others please get their background. Our land (only 20 acres) is land locked and if we wouldn't have bought it, it surely would've went to a realtor who would've put up several houses on it. We bought it and put a modest modular home on it and did all our own fencing and made it the farm we couldn't afford otherwise. We now produce enough hay to substain our goats & horses and our garden & fruit trees provides us well too,so I think we have a fair understanding of appreciation for preserving land. As far as allowing others to use my land for their hunting, I do have two very special people that are allowed to hunt here, my dad & husband (note only archery because it's NOT safe otherwise) but they can't possibly be patroling all the time, it's a lost cause. And it does make me mad because my dad is in poor health and can't get out like he use to but someone else who doesn't have permission just comes and takes advantage of tresspassing in my back yard. This is why I much rather have the company of animals than people, so go ahead and flame me for not liking tresspassers, poachers, and people who endanger my life, and animals.

JSwan
Dec. 18, 2008, 01:41 PM
Oh for God's sake.

Has anyone demanded a landowner tolerate criminals on their land? Come on, I'd like you to point out where any person has stated such a thing.

I am a landowner too. Across the US, trespassing is a common complaint from rural dwellers. People who walk their dogs, poach, use ATV's, ride their horses, etc. One of the suggestions made to rural dwellers is that they permit a trustworthy individual to hunt or fish or ride on the land, as that person can be an extra set of eyes and ears for the landowner. You know who suggests that? Law enforcement. How on earth can that suggestion possibly be "hurtful" to you? If you don't want to do that, don't. Put away the Kleenex.

No one is demanding anything of you. No one has ever suggested you turn your land into a public park. Must you whine? You think you're the only landowner on this forum?

If you witness a crime, call the damn cops. Need you turn it into a pity party, twisting our words so that you can feel sorry for yourself?

Please, I'm waiting for you to point out where I, or anyone else, has demanded that a landowner be forced to open their land, or tolerate criminals.

I will never figure out why so many of you get so tearful if everyone doesn't join in some big group hug. Invariably y'all have to go to great pains to tell us how much you LOVE your animals. Well of course you do - we do too. What's that got to do with the price of eggs?

EqTrainer
Dec. 18, 2008, 01:51 PM
Jswan has the best advice here. I know, because now I handle all the asshats hunting on my land exactly as she recommends - I just call the police and THEY handle it.

I have no idea why I thought I should nicely go tell them that they were in my pasture.. if they cut one fence to get there and are inside the hot wire surely they know. They also know that their dogs are harrassing my livestock. They know exactly what they are doing, even if they always got that stupid look on their face and tried to tell me they had no idea that no hunting signs and two fences means no hunting.

Now they can explain what they are doing to the State Police. I am always sure to write down their license plate numbers and type of vehicle to make everything easier for them.

Thank you JSwan!

MistyBlue
Dec. 18, 2008, 02:25 PM
I still say Potato Gun. :winkgrin:

Cutting fences and dogs are not options. Definitely call the police immediately and definitely get plate and make/model/color info on any vehicles.

JSwan
Dec. 18, 2008, 02:29 PM
You know, I have a whole mess of potatoes in the pantry. Kennebeck and Cobbler.

And after posting that hot rum toddy recipe, I decided to make some.

If I drink and handle a loaded potato gun - is that illegal? I mean, if I shoot myself in the foot it pretty much just turns into hash browns. The potato - not my foot.

LisaB
Dec. 18, 2008, 02:45 PM
I agree with allowing a responsible hunter on your property. They are primarily men and that does mean marking their territory.
Also, get to know your neighbors! Be friendly and accommodating. Mention that you have valuable show horses. But just in passing.
In our situation, the cow farmer allows some good folks on his land. He's a great neighbor. On the other side, there's a sliver of land skirting around our property. Don't know him as it's just timber but his 2 hunters came and introduced themselves and tell us who's where and what the deal is. On the other side is supposedly this a-hole so we're afraid to be neighborly as he's from No VA. So we don't bother.
But the 2 hunters really keep everyone in check as the No VA dude thinks he can go everywhere. I'm about tempted to go up and introduce myself to see what would fly.
But if you're from out of town, do not start a fight. Be friends with everyone. If you see someone on your property or find something amiss, go talk to these guys. The confronting alone makes them back down. Don't be angry. Just go out with a thermos of hot coffee. Guilt alone works wonders.
And if they are hunting at night, call the game warden.
Oh yeah, post no trespassing signs EVERYWHERE. And ride on the edge of your property all the time. Make your dogs and horses wear bells.

Kementari
Dec. 18, 2008, 03:00 PM
I don't know, the way i was raised you just don't intentionally go on someone elses property without their permission to indulge your hobby, no matter what it is. Do we agree on that?

That's the way I was raised, too. I really can't fathom running roughshod over someone's property, whatever my method of transportation. :no:

EqTrainer
Dec. 18, 2008, 03:25 PM
Jswan - I need more advice :(

I just got home from picking up the wee ones and my puppy was gone.

I called my neighbor who rides thru here, to ask if she had seen him in the 20 minutes I was gone.

Yes, she had... he was running with a pack of beagles, away from my farm. She said they were coming out of the creek bed (common, the asshats dogs run down it from a neighboring property and of course then everyone is innocent... 6 times a week...)

Puppy has done this now a few times when peoples dogs run thru my property.

Otherwise he shows no tendency to wander. Apparently he gets caught up in the moment. I would show the laughing icon but as we all know, this is not really funny.

What to do? Do I lock him up for the rest of hunting season? Do I just pray that no one shoots him or runs him over and that he doesn't get too far away from home and lost?

Puppy is 9 months old, WHITE and black, giant eejit galoot at 90 lbs. Hairy and harmless. I am worried sick.

JSwan
Dec. 18, 2008, 03:32 PM
Aww crap.

My beagle has done this. Yes, they get all kerfluffle and think they're mighty hunters. Peanut was a hunting dog but for rabbit - I had a helluva time getting her off deer.

My advice to you is to do what you need to do to get your puppy back now. Then my advice it to post your question in the hunting forum. You will not find a better bunch of people to ask this question to. Calling a hound off with voice and whip (used to make a noise to get the hound's attention) is their speciality. There are several whippers-in and a few huntsmen, and I think a Master or two.

This is very common. They'll help you teach your puppy, and maybe give you some suggestions on how to discourage the beagles on your land, as well as suggestions on how to work with the hunters/asshats if necessary.

I'm sorry your puppy has heard the call of the wild and I hope you get him back soon.

EqTrainer
Dec. 19, 2008, 10:18 AM
He is home, bedraggled and very tired but ok.

Starting Monday I am on "vacation" (haha, that means I just stay home, but that's ok) and I will have time to work on this then. In the meantime, I think he will stay under lock and key.

Thank you, I will see what the hunting forum says.

Kementari
Dec. 19, 2008, 10:33 AM
He is home, bedraggled and very tired but ok.

Starting Monday I am on "vacation" (haha, that means I just stay home, but that's ok) and I will have time to work on this then. In the meantime, I think he will stay under lock and key.

Thank you, I will see what the hunting forum says.

I have no advice, but I'm glad you got the puppy back! :yes:

JSwan
Dec. 19, 2008, 10:39 AM
He is home, bedraggled and very tired but ok.

Starting Monday I am on "vacation" (haha, that means I just stay home, but that's ok) and I will have time to work on this then. In the meantime, I think he will stay under lock and key.

Thank you, I will see what the hunting forum says.


Bad dog! Sit! Stay!

Leave It! (hunting command for a hound to stop having fun and come to Mama)


Glad the puppy is ok.

EqTrainer
Dec. 19, 2008, 11:25 AM
Of course the problem is actually being right there when it happens. He is smart; if I caught him the act he'd "get" it. But I haven't, I have only seen the tail end of it all (literally).

So hopefully I will be there sometime next week when it happens.

Since the people who the other dogs belong to are hunting illegally, my chances of getting them to help me are slim. They take off if they see any of us.

I hope I impressed upon my friend who rides thru that he knows what OUT! means and if he is where he should not be, will return to home if told OUT! He also knows GO! but that is not as specific in his doggie mind :lol:

I wonder if a shock collar would work/is appropriate? I've never had to use such a thing before...

wateryglen
Dec. 19, 2008, 11:30 AM
Lurking on this thread.....but I'm depressed & angry right now. Recent trailride....neighbors land (with all apppropriate permissions btw!) and found shot male red fox about 100 ft from a deer stand that sits near the edge of her property from another neighbors land. I've been feeding him. Deerhunters are elderly matrons nephews alledgedly. My other neighbors large land holding is a hunting free zone and the deer gather there. Local deerhunters know this so they set up stands on their side of the fence waiting. It's also all foxhunting territory for the local hunt. A year ago sept. I found a gray fox shot in same place - behind L elbow in chest. Very accurate/knowledgeable hunter shot as it's the kill zone. I KNOW it's those hunters....maybe angry about the hunt free zone or hating the foxhunters or just plain nuts.

I called elderly landowner who was horrified & called nephews and they've lost their hunting priveleges for next year. Landowner of hunt free zone is furious as foxhunting has been tough on her place due to a lack of foxes. Coyotes had moved in and eaten some too. So....3 landowners mad about a dead fox some outsider has caused and maybe unhappy with each other.

Me? Pissed.....they'll have trouble finding their bait bucket and salt sources.....all gone! :uhoh: and I'll be planning some nice noisey trailrides this saturday during prime hunting hours on that property. Lots of talking....maybe some bells on!!! :winkgrin: And don't let them leave their deer stands within reach.....

I've had problems with them setting up stands over the years right on my property line over the horse pasture. They have a 150 acre parcel to hunt on! Raised cane and they moved them but every year it's the same thing. So they walk instead now. So now I'm really worried in a way. They'll probably know who complained and caused them to lose their hunting rights. So....we'll see......:mad:

JSwan
Dec. 19, 2008, 11:54 AM
Good on the landowner for revoking hunting privileges. You don't play nice in the sandbox? No soup for you!

This is one reason I don't like big game licenses. (such licenses combine multiple species on one, much larger, license fee)

Such licenses result in nonselective hunting. Me no likee that.

Sorry about the fox. With all the coyote around here, I'm surprised you had any left to begin with. They're gone over my way - and get this..... all the turkey disappeared. I saw one hen roosting in a tree by herself. That's it. No sign of them - no marking, no scat, no feathers. Not even in the deep woods. Mast is plentiful. I do not hear them - even when I use my turkey call. Neighbors noticed it too. Poof. Vanished.

(FYI for the bunny huggers I do not hunt wild turkey. I set aside acreage for wildlife habitat and had a very healthy turkey population until recently)

county
Dec. 19, 2008, 12:01 PM
I wish alot of those dang turkeys would vanish from around here this fall I counted 58 in one corn feild between Turkey, Geese, and Deer we lose about 15% of our crop each year. Gets really expensive!!!!

JSwan
Dec. 19, 2008, 12:10 PM
Look at it this way, county.

At least you don't have to deal with Elk. :lol::lol:

At least not yet!

I saw some numbers on crop damage in the US... .I think this was deer damage though. Wow. It's astounding. Same with auto collisions, nursery/landscape damage, and residential damage. I don't have trouble but I only have 28 acres and no row crops - just my fenced vegetable garden. I do have bear that come and eat the apples - but that area isn't fenced and they eat windfall. The birds usually get to the cherries before I do though.

The biggest theft I have is chestnuts. I collect the chestnuts and sell them. Every year this couple shows up out of no where and steals them!!!!

Then I started reading up on the amount of money spent on repairing/insuring damage done by Elk... Holy Moly. Makes the auto bailout look like a penny jar.

Not to mention human deaths caused by deer/elk collisions....

county
Dec. 19, 2008, 12:21 PM
My neighbor owns a body shop in town he said right at 35% of his work each year is due to deer/car accidents. The deer population here is very large just on our 2.5 mile road the land owners have killed 23 so far this year and thats private land the state land I'm sure has produced more then that.

LaurieB
Dec. 19, 2008, 02:19 PM
No one is demanding anything of you. No one has ever suggested you turn your land into a public park. Must you whine? You think you're the only landowner on this forum?



I can't begin to understand how it's seen as whining for someone to say, "I bought this land, I own it, I would like to be entitled to use it as I see fit."

If someone opened one of my back gates and let their horses onto my land to graze on my grass, I would ask them to leave.

If someone decided to build themselves a house in one of my pastures that currently stands empty, I wouldn't allow that either.

So why should hunters be given a special pass? Because it's a sport? Because they have guns? I truly don't understand this attitude that the OP is going to have to live with hunting on her land, so she might as well just keep her head down and try not to get shot.

JSwan
Dec. 19, 2008, 02:52 PM
I can't begin to understand how it's seen as whining for someone to say, "I bought this land, I own it, I would like to be entitled to use it as I see fit."


So why should hunters be given a special pass? Because it's a sport? Because they have guns? I truly don't understand this attitude that the OP is going to have to live with hunting on her land, so she might as well just keep her head down and try not to get shot.


Well, you probably don't understand because you have trouble reading.

No one suggested that or has written anything resembling what you wrote in your post.

LaurieB
Dec. 19, 2008, 03:47 PM
Well, you probably don't understand because you have trouble reading.

No one suggested that or has written anything resembling what you wrote in your post.

Oh my. You mean you didn't say the things I pulled from your quote? Hard to understand, that.

I actually have read for comprehension and here's what I've read:
The best way to keep bad hunters off your land is to get a good hunter.
There doesn't seem to be an option for no hunters.

Which would irk me, if it was my land, that I wished to enjoy the quite and peaceful use of.

MistyBlue
Dec. 19, 2008, 05:48 PM
Cutting fences and dogs are not options. Definitely call the police immediately and definitely get plate and make/model/color info on any vehicles.

Call authorities with people trespassing while armed on your property. That was the other solution given if a person didn't want any hunting on their property. Nobody said a person *had* to give permission to a responsible hunter in order to keep bad ones off their property or that it was the only way...it's just a very common way to accomplish that.

Beverley
Dec. 19, 2008, 08:52 PM
Oh my. You mean you didn't say the things I pulled from your quote? Hard to understand, that.

I actually have read for comprehension and here's what I've read:
The best way to keep bad hunters off your land is to get a good hunter.
There doesn't seem to be an option for no hunters.

Which would irk me, if it was my land, that I wished to enjoy the quite and peaceful use of.


The lines you cite are VERY CLEARLY a recommendation. That's all. The hint is that the sentence begins, 'The best way...'

If you don't like that recommendation, I don't think anyone has a problem. Do make sure you adequately post your property though- no hunting, no trespassing, be clear as a bell. Where I used to deer hunt in Virginia/West Virginia, our host had his property posted with the message 'Trespassers will be shot. Survivors will be prosecuted.' He was mostly kidding, mind you.:)

Still, despite thorough posting, my friend did allow one local character to hunt every year- knowing that he'd trespass anyway, it is impossible to patrol 1500 acres in the mountains while you are trying to hunt yourself- but he knew that the one with permission (who was putting meat in the freezer) would run all the other trespassers off.

BrenderGal
Dec. 19, 2008, 11:19 PM
So if someone's hunting too close to, or on, your property, what's wrong with setting up a line of cans and doing "target practice"? Not at them, but to make enough noise to get the deer running away from your land. Having deer season coincide with your annual 'target practice season' might do the trick. ;)

JSwan
Dec. 20, 2008, 08:57 AM
Oh my. You mean you didn't say the things I pulled from your quote? Hard to understand, that.

Which would irk me, if it was my land, that I wished to enjoy the quite and peaceful use of.

That's what happens when you quote people out of context and then misrepresent the intent and meaning.

If you wish to enjoy the quiet and peaceful use of your land, then do so. If someone trespasses, call law enforcement. If you wish to open your land to people, for hunting, bird watching, or fishing, then do so. If you do not want to, then don't.

QED.

Now do you understand? Or do you wish to again manipulate the meaning and intent of that post as well?

county
Dec. 20, 2008, 09:24 AM
I like BenderGals idea, next time the useless horseback riders are here I think we'll decide its time to ride our ATV'sd and Dirt Bikes down the trails their on. Maybe if we can spook their horses enough someone gets bucked of they'll get the hint to stay off private property.

pAin't_Misbehavin'
Dec. 20, 2008, 09:44 AM
So if someone's hunting too close to, or on, your property, what's wrong with setting up a line of cans and doing "target practice"? Not at them, but to make enough noise to get the deer running away from your land. Having deer season coincide with your annual 'target practice season' might do the trick. ;)


I like BenderGals idea, next time the useless horseback riders are here I think we'll decide its time to ride our ATV'sd and Dirt Bikes down the trails their on. Maybe if we can spook their horses enough someone gets bucked of they'll get the hint to stay off private property.

Well, there you go - problem solved.:yes: I think this is the best idea I've heard yet.

I don't mind the deer hunters around here. I have my land posted because it's family land and my mother-in-law objects to hunters, but as I said the occasional hound or three coming through is not a problem at all. If my horses would run from a dog we'd never ride anywhere but the school, here in the land of the free-range canine.:lol:

But I've noticed an inordinate number of my local horsepeople are terrified of hunting hounds. I've no idea why - as I posted earlier I've met many of the hounds and they really are timid little creatures.

Y'all know what I think will be our next huge problem here in my area? Hog dogs.:yes: We're becoming so overrun with feral hogs that crops are suffering. So far, my neighbors are just shooting them, but of course it's hard to kill a hog with one shot and most wind up running back into the brush hale and hearty. Once the locals find out about using pit bulls to track and hold 'em till the hunter can finish them off? My horsey neighbors are liable to faint and fall off the first time they encounter a pack of hunting pibbles!:eek::lol: Although, county, I bet that'll teach horseback riders to keep far away from planted fields. :winkgrin:

tkhawk
Dec. 20, 2008, 01:01 PM
I like BenderGals idea, next time the useless horseback riders are here I think we'll decide its time to ride our ATV'sd and Dirt Bikes down the trails their on. Maybe if we can spook their horses enough someone gets bucked of they'll get the hint to stay off private property.

Don't you have a lot of public trails? Why are these folks riding on private land/trails. But just surprised at some of the comments they are giving you when caught trampling your corn.

tkhawk
Dec. 21, 2008, 10:06 AM
Because tresspassing is one thing, but tresspassing destroying your property and when caught giving you lip is totally another...:eek:

MistyBlue
Dec. 21, 2008, 11:26 AM
Agreed...that's cause for using a potato gun on them. :D Or paintball rifle. My husband has started calling me Denny Crane because of my prolific paintball usage. :lol: (stinks that show was discontinued :no: )

EqTrainer
Dec. 21, 2008, 12:01 PM
Because tresspassing is one thing, but tresspassing destroying your property and when caught giving you lip is totally another...:eek:


Yesterday when I was driving along my road, I realized that the old barbed wire perimeter fences, that the cattle farmers used to string along.inside the tree lines, have been neatly cut out in multiple places. Not just pushed down.. but cut out completely between trees to make enough space for a person to go thru.

It is moments like this when you realize why people do things like put out covered bear traps :lol: of course then you realize why you should not but.. wow. The audacity.

One of my friends reminded me that soon they will start hunting raccoons at night with dogs, too. Last year when I encountered some of them (walking thru a neatly cut fence line w/their HUGE dogs, at 11:00 at night, I woke up hearing the horses running) they told me that I should put my horses in the barn at night during hunting season because they really could not say where their dogs might end up. In fact, they told me, they had tracked those particular dogs since morning and they had covered over 15 miles "as the crow flies". Nice. They were really proud, too.

Few things are less horrifying than hearing a raccoon screaming as it is being pulled apart by dogs. One more thing to look forward to during hunting season.

MistyBlue
Dec. 21, 2008, 12:32 PM
I don't like raccoon hunting much either...but the raccoons aren't killed by the dogs. Coon dogs are specially trained trackers who track, chase and then tree the raccoon. They then "hold" the raccoon in the tree by baying at the base of the tree to alert the hunters where they are and where the raccoon is. The raccoon is then shot by the hunters, usually using a flashlight shined in their eyes to locate it and keep it still.
The screaming you're hearing from the raccoons are from the raccoon challenging the dogs. They're pretty vicious animals when cornered and will make a God-awful racket.
Coon hunters follow the dogs by listening to their baying. Beagle owners do something similar too...following their tracking dogs by the baying noises they make. You can sit and listen to hounds hunting at night and tell where they are, if they're on a scent and if they've treed something. The sport part of hunting with hounds at night is the hunters trying to keep up, trying to track down their own hounds, how well their hounds track and "sound" and they all enjoy the midnight walks through the woods. Some only jacklight without rifles too...the sport being the succesful tracking and treeing of the prey. They shine the light on it to confirm a treed animal and then call off the hounds. Of course there's also illegal jacklighting which crappy hunters will do by immobilizing deer and shooting them.
It's a pretty involved sport, but I also wouldn't want coon hunters thinking they can cross my property either. I normally wouldn't mind since a good coon hunter has great hounds who wouldn't bother the horses but morons are out there too.

pj
Dec. 21, 2008, 01:48 PM
I KNOW that not all hunters are morons but many many many morons seem drawn to the sport.
Came up on TWELVE deer bodies with only antlers and choice cuts of meat missing. All neatly stacked in a row. Wonder why they bothered to haul them to one spot??
EVERY single year someone kills a deer and dumps the WHOLE thing into the creek.
Had a HUGE argument with some hunters who lease the timberland on one side of us. They INSISTED that our driveway was a road for THEIR use. Never mind that it dead ends at our house. They only left when encouraged by our male Boxer.
A guy with beagles who hunts this area informed us he would let us know when his dogs were hunting and we should lock OUR dogs up because his might come on to our property.
I could go on and on but think this gives the idea of the kind of hunters we deal with.
YEP...a lot of morons. I'll be thrilled to death when they've ALL gone back to town.

dalpal
Dec. 21, 2008, 02:11 PM
I like BenderGals idea, next time the useless horseback riders are here I think we'll decide its time to ride our ATV'sd and Dirt Bikes down the trails their on. Maybe if we can spook their horses enough someone gets bucked of they'll get the hint to stay off private property.


Do you actually own a horse????? I'm often confused by many of your posts.. seem to be antihorse. :confused:

Huntertwo
Dec. 21, 2008, 03:24 PM
One of my friends reminded me that soon they will start hunting raccoons at night with dogs, too. Last year when I encountered some of them (walking thru a neatly cut fence line w/their HUGE dogs, at 11:00 at night, I woke up hearing the horses running) they told me that I should put my horses in the barn at night during hunting season because they really could not say where their dogs might end up. In fact, they told me, they had tracked those particular dogs since morning and they had covered over 15 miles "as the crow flies". Nice. They were really proud, too.

Few things are less horrifying than hearing a raccoon screaming as it is being pulled apart by dogs. One more thing to look forward to during hunting season.

:mad: Cripes, WTF is the point of treeing raccoons and killing them? Don't people have anything more productive to do with their time besides killing a treed animal?

Add that to the - Why I hate people sometimes - list....:no:

EqTrainer
Dec. 21, 2008, 03:31 PM
:lol: MB.. you and I don't live in the same type of "country". Trust me, part of the fun here is the raccoon getting torn up. "Damn varmints" as they call them, apparently deserve it. After you shoot them and they fall out of the tree, the dogs deserve it to "get 'em" or so I have been told.

Huntertwo
Dec. 21, 2008, 03:35 PM
:lol: MB.. you and I don't live in the same type of "country". Trust me, part of the fun here is the raccoon getting torn up. "Damn varmints" as they call them, apparently deserve it. After you shoot them and they fall out of the tree, the dogs deserve it to "get 'em" or so I have been told.

I do hope you're joking? Wow...:no:

JSwan
Dec. 21, 2008, 05:59 PM
I've been coon hunting and what is described is nothing remotely close to the truth.

I think maybe some of you need to get out in the woods and see what hunting is like before making these statements. Some of what is written here would be funny if I didn't know all y'all thought you knew what you were talking about.:rolleyes:

EqTrainer
Dec. 21, 2008, 06:29 PM
I've been coon hunting and what is described is nothing remotely close to the truth.

I think maybe some of you need to get out in the woods and see what hunting is like before making these statements. Some of what is written here would be funny if I didn't know all y'all thought you knew what you were talking about.:rolleyes:

Jswan, I wish I were joking.

To the south of me is Chapel Hill.. Durham.. Hillsborough... but to the north of me are some pretty shockingly backwoods places. Some nice places, too, don't get me wrong. But like all places, where there is a lack of education and no motivation to change the way people think and do things, well, there has been no change apparently. Not sure how else to say this.

I grew up on a large farm. I hunted... both still and with bird dogs. This is NOTHING, absolutely nothing like what I grew up with. And I have talked to coon hunters *here* and yes, this is what they do. The ones I have spoken with hate raccoons and view them as varmints, therefore treatable as such. If you just stand there and kind of nod your head and don't say much, people will tell you all sorts of things you know.. heck, they are proud of their dogs, proud of ridding the woods of those varmints, they will tell you all about it.

Last year I was riding at a friends house who lives on a fairly busy paved road. All of a sudden, this small truck goes right off the road and starts driving down the path between two soybean fields. Next thing, the guy is shooting out the window at - what, we did not know at the time - turns out he was shooting at a ground hog. It was his grandfathers land.

The hatred of "varmints" is pretty amazing. Skunks, opposums, raccoons, foxes, ground hogs, they are all subject to it around here.

The good news for me is, every year it gets a little better as the word spreads that we are intolerant of any sort of hunting on our land and so are our neighbors - total thats about 600 acres.

Lastly - I used to have a friend who started horses for me - he was also a game warden. His stories made mine look like a tea party. It's not like this is isolated.

I understand why you'd think there was exxageration going on here, because who in their right mind would do something like that? Good question. Hopefully it's a way of thinking whose time has ended.

dalpal
Dec. 21, 2008, 06:36 PM
Jswan, I wish I were joking.

To the south of me is Chapel Hill.. Durham.. Hillsborough... but to the north of me are some pretty shockingly backwoods places. Some nice places, too, don't get me wrong. But like all places, where there is a lack of education and no motivation to change the way people think and do things, well, there has been no change apparently. Not sure how else to say this.

I grew up on a large farm. I hunted... both still and with bird dogs. This is NOTHING, absolutely nothing like what I grew up with. And I have talked to coon hunters *here* and yes, this is what they do. The ones I have spoken with hate raccoons and view them as varmints, therefore treatable as such. If you just stand there and kind of nod your head and don't say much, people will tell you all sorts of things you know.. heck, they are proud of their dogs, proud of ridding the woods of those varmints, they will tell you all about it.

Last year I was riding at a friends house who lives on a fairly busy paved road. All of a sudden, this small truck goes right off the road and starts driving down the path between two soybean fields. Next thing, the guy is shooting out the window at - what, we did not know at the time - turns out he was shooting at a ground hog. It was his grandfathers land.

The hatred of "varmints" is pretty amazing. Skunks, opposums, raccoons, foxes, ground hogs, they are all subject to it around here.

The good news for me is, every year it gets a little better as the word spreads that we are intolerant of any sort of hunting on our land and so are our neighbors - total thats about 600 acres.

Lastly - I used to have a friend who started horses for me - he was also a game warden. His stories made mine look like a tea party. It's not like this is isolated.

I understand why you'd think there was exxageration going on here, because who in their right mind would do something like that? Good question. Hopefully it's a way of thinking whose time has ended.

And just to add....while there are alot of responsible hunters....there are also alot of "redneck" hunters. Hunting is illegal on Sundays....well, last Sunday, not only did someone tresspass on the farm property but also decided it was okay to hunt. Unfortantely, by the time the BO coud get to the back 90, they were gone. Many play by the rules, and there are some who do not.:(:no:

JSwan
Dec. 21, 2008, 07:10 PM
Well then we're back to where we started.

There is a difference between a person committing a crime or unethical act, and the "group" to which that person belongs.

Hunters, as a group, are law abiding, ethical people. Those who commit crimes, or hunt unethically, are not - by definition - hunters. They are poachers.

Some people drink and drive, but not all drivers are drunk. There is video evidence of high level dressage riders abusing their horses - horrifically - and yet no reasonable person would assert that the abuse is commonplace.

In fact, if such an assertion were made dressage riders would fall all over themselves trying to explain what dressage is, how much they care for their horses, how happy the horses are, how many rules there are in place to ensure the animals aren't drugged, rules about bits, spurs, etc.

I think we can all relate to that example. It is one in which the uneducated observer makes a gross generalization based on isolated examples of egregious conduct.

What I'm asking is that you apply that to this subject. Most of the time what you people describe is CRIMINAL ACTIVITY - not lawful hunting. There is a difference, and for once it would be nice if at least one of you made an attempt to distinguish the two.

When you are not describing a crime, you demonstrate ignorance of the subject. That's ok. Ignorance is a condition that can be cured by learning. Unfortunately, I've yet to see any willingness to learn.

It's like trying to convince a hard core PETA person that cantering a 3 foot course isn't cruel to the horse. Or that a fly mask doesn't blind the horse. At first, it's a little humorous. After a while - it gets old.

Horse owners always act surprised or befuddled when confronted by people who know nothing about horses and start making comments that are inaccurate or inflammatory.

I'm simply turning the tables. You're making comments about a subject you don't really know anything about. The information is out there - on the first page (I think) I even mentioned how you can obtain a FREE copy of your states hunting and fishing laws and regs.

Wouldn't it be nice, the next time you saw a person hunting, you could educate yourself on what he/she is doing rather than assuming the worst? There is no secret or mystery to hunting - especially in this day and age. Each game department has a website. They give out free information. Hunters have all sorts of clubs. They'll eagerly answer your questions - and even give you information on how to recognize unethical conduct.

I dunno, folks. Do you treat every group of people this way? I live in a state that was home to the infamous Michael Vick trial. And yet I don't assume that every black person participates in dog-fighting. A poacher almost hit me last year, and yet I don't assume that all hunters commit crime. I've hunted for years, as have my friends and family, and none of us have ever done anything remotely unethical or illegal.

I went coon-huntin' with a Baptist preacher. He was a riot. You guys have just got to hook up with some good hunters and try it. Meet the hounds, (if they hunt with dogs or hounds), talk with hunters, read up on what they've done to preserve our nation's natural resources... and go hunting a few times.

Then maybe we can have a nice talk. I'm not into tearing others down to lift myself up - and it would be refreshing if I saw that from the rest of y'all once in a while.:)

Beverley
Dec. 21, 2008, 07:52 PM
:lol: MB.. you and I don't live in the same type of "country". Trust me, part of the fun here is the raccoon getting torn up. "Damn varmints" as they call them, apparently deserve it. After you shoot them and they fall out of the tree, the dogs deserve it to "get 'em" or so I have been told.

You know, a dead animal getting torn up by the hounds is not cruelty. The animal is dead. The anti-foxhunters just love their videos of a hound breaking up a dead fox.

'Varmint shooting' is a pretty universal activity among the few who are still farmers and ranchers. What's the right amount of varmint control? Well, it depends. But understand where people who make their living off the land are coming from- animals that eat crops, or animals that build burrows that can break a horse's or cow's leg- can directly affect their livelihood.

So long as they are shooting to kill, and the shooting of the particular varmint is okay under state wildlife laws (in particular, the varmints are not a sensitive or protected species), I don't honestly understand why people would have a problem with that. Just another example of how out of touch with the land most of us are, these days.

EqTrainer
Dec. 21, 2008, 08:37 PM
Beverly - I grew up on a large farm, I have hunted. I own my own farm now. Out of touch with the land? That's amusing. It would be hard to be more in touch with it than I am, it's under my fingernails right now :lol:

Going out on someone elses land to chase and shoot raccoons in trees at night.. how is this being in touch with the land? If they wanted to be in touch with the land, they'd buy some of their own and get to know it. Your romanticism is really out of touch with reality. They aren't eating them. And the raccoon has not even been in their garbage ;) FWIW, dead animals don't scream, Beverly. If they were all dead when they hit the ground, I wouldn't hear them and the pack of dogs carrying on.

I am sorry but for some people of a certain mentality, it's all about killing something. They like to kill things. That's what it is. That is what I am dealing with here. I am, and always have been, perfectly fine with hunting that is done in a humane manner with the intention being the consumption of the hunted animal. Legal hunting, done in the way that the law specifies, is 100% ok with me. We aren't talking about that.

The best advice I have been given regarding the problems we have around here w/hunters is to call the police. I do that now. On unhappy occassions I find myself out there discussing thing with them, and truly.. if you aren't combatitve it is amazing the things they will tell you. Just a few weeks ago I met a nice young man who told me that he was driving thru my neighbors field because it was too hard to walk thru the woods to drop off the 50 lb. bag of deer corn (bait) he was carrying.. he could get there easier by cutting thru. I explained to him that it is a hay field and they would rather people not drive on it. See... this is the mentality I deal with. Hunting, by this particular group of people, is about *ease*. Not breaking a sweat. Not getting dirty. I have no respect for that. They are not out there enjoying the beauty of nature and getting to know the land.. they are sitting on the side of the road in lawn chairs waiting for a deer to run in front of them.

Hunting was to me, as a child - hard. There was a price you paid for taking the life of an animal - you got up early, you got cold, you had to be endlessly patient, you had to practice enough to be an accurate shot, you had to understand your prey and how they lived, where they lived, where they travelled thru.. the odds were in favor of the animal. If I shot something, we ate it. My brother once had to eat a crow because he shot it ;) there was no random killing. It was not "fun" in the sense of getting together and having a rumpus w/your buds.

Getting back to raccoons - four years here and I've never had a problem w/one. I've barely seen two of them, and I'm nocturnal myself :) What can those raccoons be doing that is so godawful that these people feel they need to go out and chase them thru other people's land, shoot them and let their dogs tear them apart whether they landed dead or alive? My neighbor, who has lived here all his life and hunts is just as confounded as the rest of us.

You know.. this isn't even hunting we are talking about here. The real issue is that some of us are encountering people who are really twisted.. and they aren't the same as the people who are hunting in a sporting manner. It's not that some of us "aren't in touch with the land" and we are misinterpreting what is going on here. It's that there are a bunch of people out there who enjoy killing things and the easier it is, the more the thing suffers, the better they like it.

My horses live out 24/7 purposefully. I need to not have people and dogs on my land unless it's me and my dogs. If a lawful hunter loses his dogs it has been my experience that if he thinks they are on my land he comes and tells me so he can retrieve them. I would prefer they weren't here at all.. but that is the honorable way to handle it. The rest of them are just hoping to not get caught and it appears that they are the majority. I had a coonhunter tell me once that I should lock my horses up at night so they would be safe, if that was my concern. It is indeed making it hard for truly sporting hunters to enjoy their sport because people like me and my neighbors are to the point where we are intolerant of any of it because we are overwhelmed by it.

I feel for the hunters who are doing it legally because they are surely going to lose their rights to hunt and lose places to hunt because of this.

The person who started this thread wanted to vent and I totally understand that. It is frustrating as hell to deal with this and you do dread the opening of hunting season and cannot wait for it to be over.

JSwan
Dec. 21, 2008, 08:58 PM
Sorry EqTrainer - I am sorry but I have coon hunted and what you describe is simply not accurate. Do you know the laws and regs in your state on coon hunting? Chase versus hunt? Number of hounds? Time? Training? Firearm use? Type? When lawful?

Oh - the reasons you don't see coons is because they are largely nocturnal. Trust me - they are all over the place.

I respect your opposition to hunting, as I do others who do not care for hunting. I also sympathize with those who have been victims of crime, or have witnessed a crime.

But sorry - I have not read one single sentence describing hunting by y'all that was accurate. Especially when describing hunting with a dog/hound.

I was reading a lady's diatribe on waterfowl hunting (she built a multimillion dollar house near a prime hunting spot on public land and now wants hunting banned). One argument she uses is that the bullets from the shotguns might hit her house.

Hmmmmm...... where do I start......

Again - I respect your views but it does seem you have the same attitude. You moved into an area that is actively hunted and now you're pissed off and want everyone else to stop now that you're there. Illegal/unethical activity aside.... don't you think you should also make an effort?

No offense - but horse people are just as bad as city people. (often these are the same people - city people who buy a horse and then move out to the country and expect the serfs to kiss their butt)

Around here, newcomers move in, build a fancy house right next to an active farm, and then bitch and moan about farming, hunting, an occasional loose cow, the fact that someone might actually walk down a road in cammo with a firearm, they bitch about the tractors, the rooster crowing, the deer eating their flowers - they pretty much just spend all their time bitching, usually with a cell phone stuck to their ear.

Honestly - it's folks like that who are about as popular as a fart in a crowded elevator.

dalpal
Dec. 21, 2008, 09:00 PM
Well then we're back to where we started.

There is a difference between a person committing a crime or unethical act, and the "group" to which that person belongs.

Hunters, as a group, are law abiding, ethical people. Those who commit crimes, or hunt unethically, are not - by definition - hunters. They are poachers.

Some people drink and drive, but not all drivers are drunk. There is video evidence of high level dressage riders abusing their horses - horrifically - and yet no reasonable person would assert that the abuse is commonplace.

In fact, if such an assertion were made dressage riders would fall all over themselves trying to explain what dressage is, how much they care for their horses, how happy the horses are, how many rules there are in place to ensure the animals aren't drugged, rules about bits, spurs, etc.

I think we can all relate to that example. It is one in which the uneducated observer makes a gross generalization based on isolated examples of egregious conduct.

What I'm asking is that you apply that to this subject. Most of the time what you people describe is CRIMINAL ACTIVITY - not lawful hunting. There is a difference, and for once it would be nice if at least one of you made an attempt to distinguish the two.

When you are not describing a crime, you demonstrate ignorance of the subject. That's ok. Ignorance is a condition that can be cured by learning. Unfortunately, I've yet to see any willingness to learn.

It's like trying to convince a hard core PETA person that cantering a 3 foot course isn't cruel to the horse. Or that a fly mask doesn't blind the horse. At first, it's a little humorous. After a while - it gets old.

Horse owners always act surprised or befuddled when confronted by people who know nothing about horses and start making comments that are inaccurate or inflammatory.

I'm simply turning the tables. You're making comments about a subject you don't really know anything about. The information is out there - on the first page (I think) I even mentioned how you can obtain a FREE copy of your states hunting and fishing laws and regs.

Wouldn't it be nice, the next time you saw a person hunting, you could educate yourself on what he/she is doing rather than assuming the worst? There is no secret or mystery to hunting - especially in this day and age. Each game department has a website. They give out free information. Hunters have all sorts of clubs. They'll eagerly answer your questions - and even give you information on how to recognize unethical conduct.

I dunno, folks. Do you treat every group of people this way? I live in a state that was home to the infamous Michael Vick trial. And yet I don't assume that every black person participates in dog-fighting. A poacher almost hit me last year, and yet I don't assume that all hunters commit crime. I've hunted for years, as have my friends and family, and none of us have ever done anything remotely unethical or illegal.

I went coon-huntin' with a Baptist preacher. He was a riot. You guys have just got to hook up with some good hunters and try it. Meet the hounds, (if they hunt with dogs or hounds), talk with hunters, read up on what they've done to preserve our nation's natural resources... and go hunting a few times.

Then maybe we can have a nice talk. I'm not into tearing others down to lift myself up - and it would be refreshing if I saw that from the rest of y'all once in a while.:)


I'll see if I can find the Sunday hunter and ask him/them. ;)

Seriously, I don't think there was ever one post where I, personally, lumped all hunters into one group....if I did, please point it out to me. I think many people on this thread, including the OP, was merely expressing frustations with THEIR OWN PERSONAL problems. And while, it is probably a pleasure to have you as a neighbor, not all hunter/poachers/whatever act responsibly....is hunting on a Sunday, responsible...is trespassing on someone else's land to hunt responsible? Is cutting fences responsible? I'm sorry that you think we are giving ALL hunters a bad wrap, but I don't think that is the case here......people are simply giving their own personal accounts/frustrations.

I think we all get that you are a passionate, responsible hunter...however, there are quite a few yahoo, beer drinking yahoo "men with guns, looking for game" in our area who feel entitled to do as they please.

JSwan
Dec. 21, 2008, 09:18 PM
I think we all get that you are a passionate, responsible hunter...however, there are quite a few yahoo, beer drinking yahoo "men with guns, looking for game" in our area who feel entitled to do as they please.

I am not relevant. I joined this thread because posters WERE lumping all into one category, and the comments revealed ignorance about the history of conservation in the United States. I get tired of the inflammatory rhetoric. Guess it surprised some of you that there are horse owners that also hunt.

I know what y'all are talking about. Trespassing is the number one complaint from rural dwellers. In some areas, the worst trespassers are horseback riders. In others, it's ATV's, or hikers, poachers, drunk teenagers, etc.

Horsepeople are always having to repair their public image because of the bad apples. So are sportsmen. Do me a favor - when hunters try and explain how they hunt, what their contribution has been, or try and refute some of the baseless accusations - consider listening and learning.

The next time you might be the one having to defend trail riding, eventing, dressage, or endurance to a nonhorseperson who thinks we all abuse our horses. You'd want that nonhorseperson to listen and consider what you say, and change their opinion when presented with facts.

I'm asking for the same consideration. Think about it.

EqTrainer
Dec. 21, 2008, 09:31 PM
JSwan - I asked them exactly what they were doing and how they did it. Two different sets of guys, on two different occassions. Then I asked them why. And they happily told me all about it. It was clear they didn't think there was anything wrong at all with it. They bragged about it, they were very proud of their dogs and were having a good time. Of course they apologized for being on my land but "hey.. those dogs have a mind of their own now, and when they get on a scent that's it..." my neighbors who have lived here forever have confirmed it, yup, that's how it's done.. I asked them because I was trying to put two and two together, coon season/the hunters I met/the things I hear.

Really... I wish I didn't know. Who wants to know something like that? I had never, ever even heard of people hunting raccoons, that is not something we ever did.

What are the laws here about coonhunting? I have no idea... I don't hunt raccoons. It may be perfectly legal to shoot a raccoon in a tree and if it falls down and is still alive, for your dogs to finish it off. Of course, common sense tells you that *stopping* the dogs would be damn near impossible, so that probably falls into the same grey area as retrieving them off of other peoples land and all that.

You know.. it is what it is. Really, I think it's a good thing that we can vent about it here, everyone needs to be able to do that, since other than calling the police and letting due process handle it there isn't much to do. I have said it before and I will say it again - it's not hunting in itself that I have an issue with. It's the mentality that I continue to encounter that is a problem. And I am sorry if those people end up ruining it for the rest of you. I actually don't think making anything about hunting illegal would change it, I am sure that part of the thrill for this particular sort of person is that they are breaking the law, or skirting around it. They must feel they are above it (and really.. out there in the dark, in the woods with a gun, aren't they?) They are not hunting animals for the same reason that you do, JSwan, or I did, or the average Joe does.

JSwan
Dec. 21, 2008, 09:49 PM
I agree with you that the mentality of some people is odious. But that is not the majority of sportsmen in the US. Not even close.

As far as coon-hunting goes - it's done at night. That is the proper way to hunt raccoon. You hunt the species when it is active, not when it is sleeping or denning/nesting. That is unethical. You've heard of the term, "I was a sitting duck?" That term came about because it is only legal and ethical to take a shot at waterfowl landing or taking off. You don't shoot them when they're sitting there paddling in the water. Any form of hunting has its ethics and accepted practices.

And like all other forms of hunting with hounds, the odds are always in the quarries favor. It's also the most selective of all methods of hunting, and for some species the preferred method. It mimics the role of a natural (and much larger) predator in an ecosystem, it is highly selective, there is greater accuracy in terms of ensuring only legal harvest is made, and it involves far less impact upon wildlife populations than other methods of hunting - again because it is highly selective.

During a chase season there is no legal harvest. Even during the hunting season, most houndsmen do not harvest. (for treeing or denning species).

Personally, I hate it when jerks use the lame excuse that their dawgs can't read. I think you're in South Carolina, right? If so you may want to keep an eye on your state's upcoming legislative session. There may be an opportunity to provide some constructive input into hunting in your state.

Huntertwo
Dec. 22, 2008, 03:01 PM
Sorry EqTrainer - I am sorry but I have coon hunted and what you describe is simply not accurate. Do you know the laws and regs in your state on coon hunting? Chase versus hunt? Number of hounds? Time? Training? Firearm use? Type? When lawful?

Oh - the reasons you don't see coons is because they are largely nocturnal. Trust me - they are all over the place.

I respect your opposition to hunting, as I do others who do not care for hunting. I also sympathize with those who have been victims of crime, or have witnessed a crime.

But sorry - I have not read one single sentence describing hunting by y'all that was accurate. Especially when describing hunting with a dog/hound.

.

OTOH, just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it is not going on. I've never witnessed dog fighting, but that doesn't mean some whack jobs aren't doing it in the next town over.

I also agree that some f'ups just do it for kicks. What is the point of treeing a terrified raccoon with dogs and killing it??
I understand Deer hunting to keep them from over populating and starving and if done humanely, I have no problem with it.

But to tree a poor animal for kicks and then shooting it. Well, that is just plain cruel. :no:

And it won't make a dent in the population of raccoons out there.

I used to have a mom and babies that used to come into my garage and explore around at night. Didn't bother me a bit.

Live and let live.

JSwan
Dec. 22, 2008, 08:41 PM
Do me a favor and read all the posts, including all of mine, before jumping on a few sentences from just one.

I'd suggest you speak with some coon hunters and learn how it's done before rushing to any conclusions - especially the erroneous one you describe in your post. Actually, from what I can tell, few to none of you have ever hunted at all. I get a kick out of that - reminds me of people who tell me they know how to ride a horse yet all they've done is rent one at the beach while on vacation.

Soon your horses will come down with Lyme or EPM, you'll find rabid fox or coon in your grain room, or the deer will eat your flowers or you'll hit one with your car. Maybe you'll hit a bear. You'll find rabid fox or raccoon on your land; maybe you are your children or pets will be exposed. Or coyote will snatch your cat or dog from off your porch and kill it. The geese or other migratory birds will crap all over your pasture and your horses will get sick. I'll look forward to reading those threads, knowing that a few months later many of you will be bitching about hunting again.

Oh wait - there's one already. Someone is pissed that there are birds in the barn. Folks suggesting all sorts of methods to get rid of them, including lethal ones.

Oh, the irony.....

Beverley
Dec. 22, 2008, 10:35 PM
Not to mention- raccoons shed parvo virus. How do I know? Lost a beloved young dog to the disease, the first parvo death in Fairfax County, VA as far as I can recall. Raccoon poop in the back yard.

Lamma70
Dec. 22, 2008, 10:47 PM
Deer hunting is crucial on the east coast. In some areas it's combined with other strategies to help control the deer population. There are more deer now than when Jamestown was founded. CWD is a threat to not only the deer and elk population, but it may also pose a risk to cattle. We MUST not let that disease make its way into our food chain. Sportsmen fully support mandatory sampling of harvested animals. Deer are also responsible for the spread of Lyme Disease - a disease that in some parts of the country is almost an epidemic. The CDC has pretty scary numbers on that. Deer/auto collisions cost the public a tremendous amount of money.


The thing about population control...is that the hunters actually kill off all of the large, healthy deer. It is the old, diseased deer that actually stay on. To me, that is a problem. I know we need to control populations, but I think they should consider this issue.

And, I am for hunting...but only when the hunter is an expert marksperson, and can kill the animal with the first shot, or as quick as possible. The other week, I heard a shot, and then a deer crying for 5-10 minutes, and then a second shot. It was horrifying.

JSwan
Dec. 22, 2008, 10:56 PM
I tell you what - you go through marksmanship school, take the safety education course, purchase the licenses and stamps. Then try and find a decent and safe place to hunt and sit there for hours and hours in the cold.

Oh, and please share with us how any living thing on this planet can be guaranteed a quick death? We can't even guarantee that for our pets and family members.

Shoot a diseased animal and then eat it. Let me know how it tastes. You do like to eat the meat of sick animals, right? Or do you approve of just killing animals and leaving them to rot? Where I come from that's not only unethical, it's illegal.

Natural predation usually claims the infirm.

The only disease I'm concerned about in cervids is CWD and I strongly suggest you don't eat a deer infected with it.

Huntertwo
Dec. 23, 2008, 06:42 AM
The thing about population control...is that the hunters actually kill off all of the large, healthy deer. It is the old, diseased deer that actually stay on. To me, that is a problem. I know we need to control populations, but I think they should consider this issue.

And, I am for hunting...but only when the hunter is an expert marksperson, and can kill the animal with the first shot, or as quick as possible. The other week, I heard a shot, and then a deer crying for 5-10 minutes, and then a second shot. It was horrifying.

I alway think the same thing. The hunters usually go after the biggest healthiest Bucks who are more apt to pass along good strong genes to their offspring.

Not many go for the scrawny unhealthy Bucks who probably don't pass on any good attributes to their offspring.

And Beverly, sorry about your loss. But disease can be carried on almost any animal. Dogs up this way carry the Parvo Virus. That is why it is part of our annual vaccination protocol.

Doesn't mean we should kill everything and anything that is considered a carrier.
Heck, horses carry Strangles.

People carry more diseases than probably most animals. Think about it.
Influenza alone kills approximately 30,000 people every winter. We take the best precautions we can and hope for the best.

JSwan
Dec. 23, 2008, 07:18 AM
Another fallacy.

Hunting regulations are complicated. And regulations and limits can vary from county to county depending on the population level of deer.

On one thread some poster was upset because a hunter killed a "fawn" (which wasn't a fawn but probably a button buck). Now you are saying that the hunter should be killing the "fawn" instead of a healthy buck.

How about both of you look up your hunting regulations and see exactly what hunters are targeting. Because I can assure you that nothing written by nonhunters in this thread is correct.

Do you know what a deer tag is? How it's filled legally? How the regs vary depending on the type of weapon used? The minimum distance a stand needs to be off the ground? That antlerless deer kill is encouraged and is reflected in the regs and instruction on filling out tags? Do you know what Quality Deer Management is? That trophy hunting is unethical and illegal?

Jiminy Christmas. This stuff isn't a secret. Look it up.

CanterQueen
Dec. 23, 2008, 09:48 AM
Not to mention- raccoons shed parvo virus. How do I know? Lost a beloved young dog to the disease, the first parvo death in Fairfax County, VA as far as I can recall. Raccoon poop in the back yard.

I have a horse in Fairfax County, VA with EPM -- from raccoon poop. I also have a very old cookbook put out by the Iowa Fish & Game Officers Association and it has a recipe for Roast Raccoon. If any of you hunters would like it I'll gladly send it to you. We need less raccoons!!!!:)

Beverley
Dec. 23, 2008, 10:13 AM
I have a horse in Fairfax County, VA with EPM -- from raccoon poop. I also have a very old cookbook put out by the Iowa Fish & Game Officers Association and it has a recipe for Roast Raccoon. If any of you hunters would like it I'll gladly send it to you. We need less raccoons!!!!:)

I've eaten raccoon, and possum. And would again, if I'm really, really hungry. But as between the two, the latter tastes better (and the Joy of Cooking's recommendation to feed the possum nothing but milk for three days before dispatching is sound advice.:cool:)

JSwan
Dec. 23, 2008, 10:28 AM
Muskrat is supposed to be tasty. I admit I've never eaten it but my grandma insists it's delicious.

I have eaten squirrel. Honestly, I'd rather eat wild game and animals raised on my own land rather than buy food in the grocery store.

Oh wait - that's what I do.



I was thinking that I recall some of the posters on this thread have written loads about how they're being pushed out or harassed by people who don't want horses in the area anymore. The newcomers have no idea how to keep horses, use lots of misinformation, rhetoric and their arguments are based in complete ignorance. The horse owners post how frustrated and angry they are that they're targeted, that people don't know anything about horses, and that zoning meetings are full of angry people who simply won't listen to the truth.

But when the tables are turned, suddenly it's ok for horsepeople to subject others to the same treatment they received.

Oh, more irony....

tkhawk
Dec. 23, 2008, 10:38 AM
Although I am game to try anything, possums I think I will pass-their shriek and their pouch-almost like creatures from a nether world!

CanterQueen
Dec. 23, 2008, 11:08 AM
Although I am game to try anything, possums I think I will pass-their shriek and their pouch-almost like creatures from a nether world!

Okay no possum, how about a nice recipe for Roast Porcupine? Or Turtle Steak, or maybe even Beaver Burgers! There's even Moose Nose (hide and hair intact, of course). Yes, I have them all right here in this ol' cookbook. :yes::yes::eek::yes::yes:

tkhawk
Dec. 23, 2008, 11:33 AM
Okay no possum, how about a nice recipe for Roast Porcupine? Or Turtle Steak, or maybe even Beaver Burgers! There's even Moose Nose (hide and hair intact, of course). Yes, I have them all right here in this ol' cookbook. :yes::yes::eek::yes::yes:

Wow those seem like interesting recipes. Turtle steak-hmm I thought only thing they were good for is soup!:lol:When I lived up north, my colleague was chinese and we used to go for a walk during lunch break to buy some stuff. Very interesting, buying live turtles, frogs, even chosing your own live fish. She would bring back live crab/lobster and keep it in the cubicle till evening so she could take it home to cook.I got some free chinese desert for not tattling!
Moose noose-and I thought I was adventouros when I tried pig's feet and ox tail!

yellow-horse
Dec. 23, 2008, 12:49 PM
what do you think is in brunswick stew?
whenever the local hunt club or fire dept sells brunswick stew i ask, whats in it?

Huntertwo
Dec. 23, 2008, 02:02 PM
Another fallacy.

Hunting regulations are complicated. And regulations and limits can vary from county to county depending on the population level of deer.

On one thread some poster was upset because a hunter killed a "fawn" (which wasn't a fawn but probably a button buck). Now you are saying that the hunter should be killing the "fawn" instead of a healthy buck.

.

How in the world could you make the comparison of what I said to killing a fawn? :rolleyes:

I just wondered why I don't see mange riddled, one point bucks hanging up more often on a person's wall...

As it is, I have to spend Christmas day at my sister's having a beautiful dead Buck staring at me while having dinner.

JSwan
Dec. 23, 2008, 03:05 PM
Because unlike some I've read every post on this thread. Anti-hunters don't seem to know what they want. You made an assertion that is not supported by fact. Another person made a different assertion that is not supported by fact. No facts, lots of assumptions.

And still none of you seem to have taken the five minutes it would take to acquaint yourselves with your state's hunting regulations. Even a cursory review would reveal that everything nonhunters have written is incorrect.

I don't think deer suffer from mange too much, but I'd never take a shot at an animal that looked diseased, at least not to eat it. If your brother in law shot that deer and cut off its head to hang on the wall, that's a felony. If he was legally permitted to kill one buck after filling his tag with antlerless deer, then I'd say he had a very good season.

You see, the whole antler thing is an indication of age. The buck had plenty of years to pass those genes on. The antlerless are the focus of population control.

You should be thanking your lucky stars you have hunters in your state. It's ground zero for Lyme. You see healthy deer because hunting keeps the population in check, so that they don't start to starve or succumb to widespread disease. Urban archery programs control populations in areas that are too populated for safe use of firearms.

Yup, I'll be reading threads about predation, rabies, Lyme, EPM, and other disease and problems with great interest. Chances are I'll see some of your names on those threads, complaining about vet bills, dead horses, or a trailering accident because you hit a deer and ran off the road. The ones so anti-hunting are often the first ones to bitch about wildlife crapping in their yard.

paw
Dec. 25, 2008, 09:37 PM
Wouldn't it be nice, the next time you saw a person hunting, you could educate yourself on what he/she is doing...

Trespassing?

Seriously, I've got no problem with hunters. I do have trouble with folks who trespass on other people's land and discharge firearms well too close to houses/livestock for comfort. It shouldn't be so hard to get them to stop.

county
Dec. 25, 2008, 10:03 PM
I agree with paw its the trespassers I don't like, riding horses where they have no business, destroying property, horse people just have no respect for private land.

paw
Dec. 26, 2008, 12:58 AM
I agree with paw its the trespassers I don't like, riding horses where they have no business, destroying property, horse people just have no respect for private land.

Let's just agree that trespassers, whatever they happen to be doing, are bad.

And county - I assume your land is posted? Where folks can see it? And there are no rights of way? Because I don't think I've ever ridden with anyone who knowingly trespasses. Not saying there are those that don't, of course, but it's not anything I've ever heard of, having ridden in 4 states over 30 years. :no: Maybe I just know a different class of riders.

county
Dec. 26, 2008, 09:24 AM
Maybe you do because horseback riders here trespass a great deal. It wouldn't be so bad except their pigs leave pop and beer cans on the ground, destroy crops, and leave gates open. We have alot of State Land around us but staying on it has never been their intention many have been told more then once they just don't care. I can honestly say not once have motorized riders been in my crops or pastures without permission can't come close to saying the same about horse people.

JSwan
Dec. 26, 2008, 09:25 AM
Trespassing?



Nope. People started making ignorant comments about hunting. Trespassing is illegal and I'd never defend a person who did that. You have to read the entire thread to understand that I was not defending criminal activity.



Oh look - at least two more threads about nuisance wildlife. What are we up to now? 6? Like I said - the first person to bitch about hunting is usually the first to bitch about wildlife crapping in their yard..... :no:

paw
Dec. 26, 2008, 11:06 AM
Nope. People started making ignorant comments about hunting. Trespassing is illegal and I'd never defend a person who did that. You have to read the entire thread to understand that I was not defending criminal activity.

But this thread is (or at least started off being) about hunters - armed people following prey animals - over property that belonged to another. And I think most of us are agreed that those folks are a PITA to get stopped. Especially if you (a) don't want armed people on your property at all and/or (b) if you don't know any responsible ones to "run the others off".

I'll agree, there have been some ignorant statements (all around), but just because someone doesn't want armed people on their property doesn't mean they're uneducated about hunting.

cloudyandcallie
Dec. 26, 2008, 12:28 PM
There are some people on this board who are writing letters to several newspapers in VA, and to the legislature, trying to get the law changed to allow hunters to enter private and posted lands to retrieve their deer dogs, and exempt them from criminal trespassing.

Look, the rights of landowners should always trump the privileges of hunters.
People shouldn't be forced to allow hunters on their lands, and hunters shouldn't use scare tactics and the term "ignorant" to try to force their beliefs on others.

Lease your land, hunt your dogs, and leave landowners in peace. As my farrier and his hunting club do.

Bluey
Dec. 26, 2008, 12:37 PM
I manage a wildlife preserve and we have to chase poachers out of here all the time, in and out of season.
Some of them are locals and then they get mad when we prosecute them.

And no, we can't let hunters in to protect us from the other hunters, because we are where wildlife raises their young and then spread to the other lands where they are hunted down to where there are no more left.

Some hunters around here spend months baiting deer and birds with corn along the fence lines.
Not a very sporting way to hunt.
You can't generally confront them, because many are half drunk.
We tease that maybe if we have a season on hunters, hunters would learn to be a little more sober and respectful.;)
We hve had cattle and horses shot.

I really think that many people lose any sense they may have had when they go hunting.:no:

Too bad for the ones that try to play by the rules.:(

cloudyandcallie
Dec. 26, 2008, 05:52 PM
I manage a wildlife preserve and we have to chase poachers out of here all the time, in and out of season.
Some of them are locals and then they get mad when we prosecute them.

And no, we can't let hunters in to protect us from the other hunters, because we are where wildlife raises their young and then spread to the other lands where they are hunted down to where there are no more left.

Some hunters around here spend months baiting deer and birds with corn along the fence lines.
Not a very sporting way to hunt.
You can't generally confront them, because many are half drunk.
We tease that maybe if we have a season on hunters, hunters would learn to be a little more sober and respectful.;)
We hve had cattle and horses shot.

I really think that many people lose any sense they may have had when they go hunting.

Too bad for the ones that try to play by the rules.:(

I totally agree with this post. Cleveland Amory said we need a season on hunters in order to thin the herd, but the hunters tend to do that during deer season already.

MistyBlue
Dec. 26, 2008, 09:48 PM
There are some people on this board who are writing letters to several newspapers in VA, and to the legislature, trying to get the law changed to allow hunters to enter private and posted lands to retrieve their deer dogs, and exempt them from criminal trespassing.


Now that would be a fiasco if that passed...but I doubt that would happen. Private property trespass for recreational sport would open WAY too many doors and cause WAY too many issues. Can't see the insurance companies alone allowing it...my homeowners would have kittens over something like that.
Not to mention that even states with Hunter's Trespass laws allowing hunter's to trespass onto property will not allow them to trespass onto private property while carrying a firearm on their body...it actually becomes a felony and not a regular trespass. And only a few states allow trespass by a hunter to retrieve dogs or wounded/dead game...but ONLY if they could have legally hunted on that property to begin with. (even if they weren't hunting on the property the dogs or game ended up, they can still only go onto that property to retrieve dogs or game if hunting is legally allowed there)
In most states if your property is visibly fenced and/or notices for no trespassing are visible then trespass is not allowed because it;s a given the hunter should have known it was private property. If the area is open or they can get onto it without crossing a fenceline and there aren't any legal no trespassing signs then they probably won't be prosecuted for trespass because the law assumes it's reasonable they didn't know it was private property.

It''s *fully* understandable that if someone does not want hunters on their land for any reason...it should not be tolerated no matter if it's a responsible hunter or not. Especially if they have visible fencing and visible no trespass/no hunting signs. The suggestion of having a "good" hunter have permission to hunt was for those who might not mind hunting/hunters as long as they're not drunken asshats or incompetent fools. If the landowner doesn't mind hunting but wants to ban moron hunters then having a resident allowed "good hunter" is a decent solution. But if the homeowner does not want any hunting of any type then they shouldn't have to deal with it.
A handful of hunters may try to circumvent that by setting stands up close to a fenceline but outside of it, making a homeowner nervous that they may shoot at game on their property. If that's the case try setting up a camera on your property pointing at the stand with a large sign near it stating they're being filmed for your safety to ensure no shots are fired onto your property and that the camera is linked to a wireless internet feed. (that wording keeps the real morons from thinking they can shoot out the camera...a wireless internet feed will still record that even with a dead shot up camera) Or you can anti-game up to your fenceline to keep the game from coming near his stand over your fence line...as long as you only treat your own property. Things such as a battery operated radio with high volume, urinating on your own fenceline (not if it's hot wire though...ouch!) or using game deterrents such as predator musk sprayed or even deer-be-gone sprays used for gardens. You can even make a hunter looking scarecrow that's very visible to counter-act the one hiding in the tree right outside your fenceline.
I may be pro-hunting but I am much more anti-trespass and pro-safety. I personally don't mind having the responsible hunters I know cut across my property or put up a stand on it to keep out the morons. But I can well understand not wanting any hunter on your own property and there are ways to help that along.
Your best bets are always to go to your local DEP and police station and get copies of all trespass and hunting laws for your own area and also ask how to help enforce them.

stuge
Dec. 27, 2008, 09:19 PM
JSwan and all the other respectable hunters - the issue is not with you and the law abiding hunters, do you not see that? It is with the criminal ones, the ones who trespass, who drink and hunt, etc. You seem to think that most hunters are law abiding and respectful, and that perhaps is your experience because that is the type of people you hang around. You likely aren't gong to come across too many of the bad hunters. At the same time you can't discount the experiences of everyone else. Yes the bad encounters may not be legal but they are real. Unfortunately, it is my opinion that there are way more drunken, disrespectful, criminal hunters than there are hunters like yourself.

You can educate people all you want and we all see your point, we really do, that the bad hunting behavior we are witnessing is illegal. But that still doesn't change the reality that unfortunately that type of behavior does seem to be in the majority.

And yes, the same might hold true for horseback riders although where I come from, SC, I very rarely see horseback riders anywhere other than public land or in arenas.

JSwan
Dec. 27, 2008, 09:39 PM
I don't know where you get your information, but your statement about trying to get "the law changed" is not correct.

I haven't read that anyone is trying to "force" their beliefs on another. At least in my posts I've been very clear that I have the utmost respect for those who disapprove of hunting, though I do not always think their reasoning is sound. I'd much rather people make an informed and educated decision, though. I don't think that's unreasonable.

stuge - Again, I disagree. I have seen bad examples of sportsmanship just like I've seen bad examples of horsemanship. I need do nothing more than step into the dressage forum to see horrific examples of "training" caught on film. I condemn the criminals and their actions, yet do not believe that all dressage riders whip their horses. Same with H/J riders, eventers, or any other discipline.

It's a big country and our experiences and perspectives will be different. Especially if we live in a hotspot for criminal activity, or had a bad experience. It's not a legitimate reason to condemn an entire group of people nationwide. It's the bad apples that spoil the bunch - that's true of any "group". But it doesn't have to be that way.


There are some people on this board who are writing letters to several newspapers in VA, and to the legislature, trying to get the law changed to allow hunters to enter private and posted lands to retrieve their deer dogs, and exempt them from criminal trespassing.

Look, the rights of landowners should always trump the privileges of hunters.
People shouldn't be forced to allow hunters on their lands, and hunters shouldn't use scare tactics and the term "ignorant" to try to force their beliefs on others.

Lease your land, hunt your dogs, and leave landowners in peace. As my farrier and his hunting club do.

Bluey
Dec. 27, 2008, 09:53 PM
I tell you, when you are escorting a half drunk poacher off practically at gunpoint and he keeps saying: "Why won't you share", the situation is beyond a rational answer and takes self restrain not to bash him over the top of the head.:sigh:

DeeThbd
Dec. 28, 2008, 08:54 AM
I agree with paw its the trespassers I don't like, riding horses where they have no business, destroying property, horse people just have no respect for private land.

But it's far more acceptable to have a total stranger, fully armed, wandering around on my property, telling me they have a RIGHT to be there?
BE TRUTHFUL, County......if you saw me and a couple of my friends pull up in my driveway, park beside your barn and start wandering around with loaded weapons, I am pretty sure you wouln't be inviting me up on the porch for a beer.
And that scenario? Comes from personal experience.....and it can be terrifying. And having to convince those people to leave? Scary. Getting to a phone to call 911 at a time like that is easier said than done.
So, people like that are the ones who can be thanked for the strong anti-hunter sentiment. The ones who prowl up and down quiet country roads all day long at a crawl - the same mile of road for hours on end - creepy. Just how bad is that person's need to kill?? I understand that there is sometimes a need for a cull, but it needs to be done RESPONSI|BLY. NOT leaving a mutilated carcass rotting on the side of the road. Seeing a neighbour's dog trotting up the road with a rotten foreleg he pulled out of the ditch was NAUSEATING. So is seeing a deer that wasn't killed with a clean shot - and the shooter couldn\t be bothered to track it and dispatch it humanely, or a doe who spent the winter with her foreleg dangling from another weekend warrior. If one has the "right" to hunt, then one must have the responsibility to do it in a sane and just manner.
Just as I have a problem with irresponsible riders who are ruining it for my local riding population (the ones who gallop in public areas, drunk and belligerent), then I darn well have the right to have negative feelings for someone of the same mindset who is armed, no? The argument, however, that the two are equal "offenses" is stretching it....a misplaced set of hoofprints does far, far less damage than a misplaced bullet.
Dee

county
Dec. 28, 2008, 09:18 AM
Then if you don't mind riders tresspassing anbd destroying your income by all means let them. Myself I don't care for either one to trespass. So far no hunter has cost me a dime of my income so I've had no reason to think their a problem. Can't say the same for horse people which is why I run them off and don't care to have them on my land. Bottom line is they do not respect private property in my experiance.

pAin't_Misbehavin'
Dec. 28, 2008, 09:27 AM
if you saw me and a couple of my friends pull up in my driveway, park beside your barn and start wandering around with loaded weapons, I am pretty sure you wouln't be inviting me up on the porch for a beer.
And that scenario? Comes from personal experience.....and it can be terrifying. And having to convince those people to leave? Scary. Getting to a phone to call 911 at a time like that is easier said than done.
<snip>
Just as I have a problem with irresponsible riders who are ruining it for my local riding population (the ones who gallop in public areas, drunk and belligerent), then I darn well have the right to have negative feelings for someone of the same mindset who is armed, no? The argument, however, that the two are equal "offenses" is stretching it....a misplaced set of hoofprints does far, far less damage than a misplaced bullet.
Dee

I'm amazed at your experience with trespassing hunters. In ten years, I've only had one guy pull his truck onto my land and get out with his gun - it was just at dawn one morning and I guess he thought he could release his dogs and get away without anyone seeing him. Anyway, I was already out and about with my collies and started walking over to explain to him that we don't allow hunting on our farm - but the instant he saw me he took off like a scalded cat and I never got the chance.:lol: What did your hunters do when you asked them to leave? I'm guessing they weren't cooperative?

I do have to disagree with you about your misplaced hoofprint analogy. Horseback riders can ruin a lot of hard work and put a dent in a farmer's livelihood by riding over cropland. And they will damage a field every single time they ride over it. A stray shot from a hunter, while it has the potential for tragedy, rarely causes actual harm. Although I'll grant you the potential for harm is greater since trespassing riders probably can't kill anybody.

DeeThbd
Dec. 28, 2008, 10:11 AM
I'm amazed at your experience with trespassing hunters. In ten years, I've only had one guy pull his truck onto my land and get out with his gun - it was just at dawn one morning and I guess he thought he could release his dogs and get away without anyone seeing him. Anyway, I was already out and about with my collies and started walking over to explain to him that we don't allow hunting on our farm - but the instant he saw me he took off like a scalded cat \and I never got the chance.:lol: What did your hunters do when you; asked them to leave? I'm guessing they weren't cooperative?

Nothing to be amazed at, although I think we are often amazed by the handful of idiots who seem to pop up from time to time....This particular group of Einsteins truly had a problem understanding that they were NOT welcome to be there, and were VERY unwilling to break open their guns as they were there to hunt, dang it. Even when they were asked if we would be welcome to walk armed through their living rooms, they couldn;'t see why their being there was an issue. Natural Resources will come out with recurring problems, but they are very understaffed for the area our farm is in, and it might take days for them to respond. In forty years of farming, we've had that incident - they were hunters from the city who thought that the great outdoors was theirs for the plucking, and the presence of farm buildings and a family completely bypassed their awareness. Finding razor-sharp arrows with three blades on them in our woods, when we have never given anybody permission to hunt, with several tree stands.....seeing people walking across within view of the house (and this is on 100 acres, with clearly defined property lines). Piles of beer cans in the woods. Losing a gorgeous, snow-white cat after hearing gunshots overnight....events like that tend to alter your tolerance. And, as I said - vehicles going up and down a quiet road for hours on end is just plain weird. Feeling unsafe riding on your own property doesn't go over well with me.
Perhaps being less than an hour from a medium sized city doesn't help....the vast majority of people who hunt in our area are the weekend warriors I mentioned - they are NOT local farmers, but are lured by the presence of farmland and a chance to shoot. And, as a previous poster mentioned - often enough, they shoot each other. Great marksmen!
And County - the first time somebody shoots any of your cattle or a horse, the economic impact is likely to be far greater than that of some hoofprints or beer cans. I do NOT condone irresponsible riders either, and since I know you read my post I'm just repeating myself. But, implying that you have what must be very large numbers of riders wreaking havoc on your property is a bit surprising, though I know even one can do damage. |Same in the situation of many people in my position.....even a few irresponsible hunters can have a profound effect on how we see the general population.
Dee

county
Dec. 28, 2008, 10:16 AM
Yes if someone shot a cow etc. it would. But the reality is they haven't but the riders have. I live and deal with the real world and whats happened not what might happen.

DeeThbd
Dec. 28, 2008, 10:33 AM
Yes if someone shot a cow etc. it would. But the reality is they haven't but the riders have. I live and deal with the real world and whats happened not what might happen.

Are you implying that those of us who have had these experiences are living in some alternate reality? Why, bless your heart! What an imaginative answer! Each experience I related is also what has happened, not hypothetical. If I were to project what MIGHT happen with the presence of hunters on our farm, imagine the creative scenario I could develop!
Each of us has had different experiences, and those experiences have shaped our perceptions. I hope that you never have to deal with difficult hunters, because I assure you it isn't fun. I have dealt with unpleasant riders, and I understand your point of view - and I would appreciate it if you would offer the same courtesy and make an effort to put yourself in the shoes of others like me and see WHY so many of us feel this way.
Dee

county
Dec. 28, 2008, 10:50 AM
No I'm not saying that at all and have no idea how you came up with it unless thats what you want to see? I'm saying inmy experiance only I've never had a hunter shoot any livestock but I have had a number of horse people trespass and destroy my property. But Bless your heart for trying to find something that was never there.

DeeThbd
Dec. 28, 2008, 11:11 AM
No I'm not saying that at all and have no idea how you came up with it unless thats what you want to see? I'm saying inmy experiance only I've never had a hunter shoot any livestock but I have had a number of horse people trespass and destroy my property. But Bless your heart for trying to find something that was never there.

It was your comment that "I live and deal with the real world" that got my dander up.....it seemed that you were implying that I did not, so, once again the power of the internet and miscommunicating rules!:lol: |So, maybe you can see why I might have taken it that way.
NO matter what their interest (hunting, riding, whatever) dealing with asshats as a rural property owner is frustrating as all heck. Even unarmed, if I found somebody out wandering around univited I would not be a welcoming person....especially if they were messing with my horses! Now THAT is sacred territory!
Dee

county
Dec. 28, 2008, 11:14 AM
Your right something was probably taken the wrong way. It does get very old dealing with trespassers I'm seriously thinking of starting to sic my dog on the riders that trespass on my place but it would be the horse that gets attacked not the person and thats not right either.

pAin't_Misbehavin'
Dec. 28, 2008, 12:20 PM
Perhaps being less than an hour from a medium sized city doesn't help....the vast majority of people who hunt in our area are the weekend warriors I mentioned - they are NOT local farmers, but are lured by the presence of farmland and a chance to shoot. And, as a previous poster mentioned - often enough, they shoot each other.

It must be the proximity to the city. Here in my corner of the swamps, I can't imagine either hunters or horseback riders not understanding "get off my land." In fact, in rural SC it's pretty rare for anyone to come onto one's land uninvited in the first place, because everyone knows that's still a fairly good way to get shot.:yes:

But it sounds like your hunters may be a self-limiting problem, given their marksmanship.:winkgrin:

Bluey
Dec. 28, 2008, 01:19 PM
I have had trespassers tell me the landowner told them they could come in.
Then they could not name the landowner and were surprised to hear it was me after all.:p
I turn them over to the sheriff.:rolleyes:

We have found that, generally, the trespassers we catch are of low IQ and liars.
A bad combination when they carry guns and you have to confront them before they do harm to others or themselves.:(

DeeThbd
Dec. 29, 2008, 09:13 AM
It must be the proximity to the city. Here in my corner of the swamps, I can't imagine either hunters or horseback riders not understanding "get off my land." In fact, in rural SC it's pretty rare for anyone to come onto one's land uninvited in the first place, because everyone knows that's still a fairly good way to get shot.:yes:

But it sounds like your hunters may be a self-limiting problem, given their marksmanship.:winkgrin:
I think a lot of us have seen similar stuff in other threads - where we get to the barn to find total strangers "petting the horsey", with no clue about why we might be upset about their presence or actions. I remember how vigilant (translation: psycho) I had to be about people around the IR mare I had.....frustrating. Imagine their reaction to find us in their child's bedroom sitting on the floor playing Lego with them! "Oh, but your baby is so KYOOOOT! Can't I play with it?" (oh, that sounds so very, very wrong...:eek:)
And, yes, some of them are VERY good at "thinning out the herd" on themselves! :D
Dee

pAin't_Misbehavin'
Dec. 29, 2008, 11:04 AM
I think a lot of us have seen similar stuff in other threads - where we get to the barn to find total strangers "petting the horsey", with no clue about why we might be upset about their presence or actions.

I am, as they say in the UK, gobsmacked (cause we just don't have as perfect an expression in American English).:eek:

I cannot imagine anyone doing such a thing in my part of the world. As for feeding the horsey - yep, that'd definitely get you shot at, if not aimed at.:yes: Even I, with my pacifistic nature:) , would be certain someone was up to no good.

Maybe at a boarding barn - cause for some reason, people do confuse those with petting zoos - but not on private property.

county
Dec. 29, 2008, 11:18 AM
In this country trespassing is common I think at least around here and especially by horse people. I've had them tell me " well you have lots of land what do you care if we ride on a small part" or " whats the big deal that we rode on some corn its not like there isn't millions of other plants in the feild " Total lack of respect for others property.

pAin't_Misbehavin'
Dec. 29, 2008, 11:30 AM
In this country trespassing is common I think at least around here and especially by horse people. I've had them tell me " well you have lots of land what do you care if we ride on a small part" or " whats the big deal that we rode on some corn its not like there isn't millions of other plants in the feild " Total lack of respect for others property.

:no: Wow. Around here, if we don't know who owns a piece of property, we search the tax assessor's records to find out who owns that big field so we can ask if it's all right to ride around the edges. We're real happy those records are online now.:)

Lots of people nearer the coast have in the last few years closed their land to horseback riders. I've no idea why - the land I'm thinking of borders a creek and no one grows crops on it. But most of the landowners have installed gates on their parcels to keep riders off. Or maybe it's the four-wheelers they're worried about, eroding the bank.:confused:

JSwan
Dec. 29, 2008, 11:32 AM
Total lack of respect for others property.

That's it in a nutshell. I never had a problem with horse people - just ATV's.

I'd hear ATV's and see the damage but never caught them in the act. Even then, what was I going to do? Run them down on foot? :lol: My neighbor and a deputy eventually helped me put an end to that. Should have made the little buggers pay for the damage they did but I was just glad to be rid of them. Funny part is that had they just asked, I would have let them use their ATV's on the horse trails I cut. Nope - they never asked - they just took. I loathe that mentality.

county
Dec. 29, 2008, 12:05 PM
I think this year what I'm going to do is try and run them down with my old 4 wheel drive truck when they ride on my land. If nothing else maybe I'l scare the hell out of them.

DLee
Dec. 30, 2008, 04:45 PM
Well hunting season IS over here (for guns) which doesn't seem to matter as I heard gunshots VERY close yesterday, and spoke to my neighbor who said she saw them shoot a deer very close to her house. Of course police were not around in time.
This county is just not that rural anymore, I cannot believe that people hunt so close to homes, barns and livestock.

katarine
Dec. 30, 2008, 04:52 PM
I don't mind deer hunting at all. I DO mind that 'they' are dumping carcasses on the side of the rural road I live on. Harvesting the meat and leaving the rest- dumping it off in the ditch by the road. Three this week in less than a 1/4 mile. Disgusting pigs.

sisu27
Dec. 30, 2008, 06:17 PM
Well said, J Swan. It's sad and dangerous that so many people are living so far removed from nature and the source of their food. The strong dislike for the spring bear hunt in my Province, by people from large cities, eventually ended it. These people are not impacted by the loss of income direved by the hunt nor the bears, who are ever encroaching into their yards. I personally live with bears. I do not have a problem with bears and happily share my 100 acres with them. But let me tell you, they are getting more numerous and in some places even dangerous, and where they are becoming a problem, I believe the spring hunt should be reinstated. Those that live in suburbia will never understand, I fear.

Calling BS. I live in Toronto but my permanent address on my DL says Garson. I have spent much of the free time in my life in the bush in northern Ontario and Quebec. I have no issue with good, responsible, safe hunters that eat/use what they take. Factory farming is a hideous practice that is far more destructive/inhumane than even the worst hunters IMO. I do HATE the argument that they are doing me a favor. Both my cottages are in very densely populated black bear habitat, one the densest in the country and I have yet to have a bad encounter. In fact, I rarely even see them. Last fall a jeuvenille black bear was shot with a bow and arrow while eating a bag of peanuts in the back seat of some idiots car who had left their windows down. I would bet that had you opened the door and told him to beat it and maybe given him a pellet or paint ball in the ass that he would have made a hasty retreat. Humans create the conflicts with black bears. Period. If they want to hunt them for sport then just say so but don't bother telling me it is for my own protection. That is crap. We are terrified to let our 3 big, black dogs (2 Dobes 1 Standard Poodle) get out of our site as bears are shot first, questioned later, in season or not.