Rubinstein - Ever See Him "In Person?"

[Kyzteke]

Curious how many people on this board ever saw this great stallion in person. I'd love to hear what your impression of him was (good AND not-so-good).

One reason I'm asking: I realize he was not approved by the first registry he was presented to. I've heard two reasons why. #1) He was "immature." #2) He was too light-boned.

Well, #1 is NOT the same as #2. Nothing wrong with #1, but #2 is something else again. So for those who actually saw him in person -- was he a horse of physical substance or not?

[farrier]

Merle at High Point Hanoverarians was the insemenating director for him when He was in Germany up to his death. She can answer any and all questions that you might have. She has the same job with HP (Sinatra Song, Davignon, and others) Say hello for me.

[MagicRoseFarm]

I saw him at Gestut Vorvek about age 7 when Martina Hanover was still riding him. He was lovely, of more than sufficient substance ( but I can see that if he was imature , he would have been a bit mealy) . He was a taller longer legged horse,lovely conformation and correct movement, and I think a great example of "more modern breeding"

[talloaks]

I saw him at the Oldenburg stallion selection in 1996 and thought he looked super. I will try and post a little photo of him in the ring. Got it, by gosh!!:)

[florida foxhunter]

I never saw him in person, only the fantastic videos. I ride a 17.2 grandson, who has LOVELY conformation and movement and the grandest brain I've ever "sat" on!

It's funny because I had someone recently tell me they'd been warned that Rubensteins are not "easy".......when in fact, the three decendents I've bred have some of the sweetest, most calm and sensible attitudes I've known!

My dream horse has always been a 16.2 black Rubenstein daughter to use in my breeding program..........

[Kyzteke]

I never saw him in person, only the fantastic videos. I ride a 17.2 grandson, who has LOVELY conformation and movement and the grandest brain I've ever "sat" on!

It's funny because I had someone recently tell me they'd been warned that Rubensteins are not "easy".......when in fact, the three decendents I've bred have some of the sweetest, most calm and sensible attitudes I've known!

My dream horse has always been a 16.2 black Rubenstein daughter to use in my breeding program..........

Not "easy?" NEVER heard that before. In fact, I've never heard a bad thing about the "R" line brains -- that is one of their big selling points I thought.

I have a Rubinstein granddaughter (by Rubino Bellisamo) who is THE easiest thing ever. I have a video of me wrapping her in a 20 x 30ft plastic hay tarp while she stands there calmly as if to say "geeze, Mom, this is a really weird blanket...but since you have treats...".

Then she walks around with the thing dragging behind her and she never blinks an eye. She was a cream puff to start u/s, very safe on the trails (for a VERY green horse) and really LIKES to work. Any easier and she's be comatose!

The reason I ask is because I bred this mare to Rosenthal for a '09 foal. I thought he fit her perfectly in terms of phenotype, he has a great rep, is a very well-known stallion AND I was very intriqued by the idea of linebreeding to Rubinstein. Still am.

But just afew days ago someone told me the "light bone" rumor and caused me to worry abit....

However I feel better now. I've got my order in -- a black or black-bay filly please.

[Kyzteke]

I saw him at the Oldenburg stallion selection in 1996 and thought he looked super. I will try and post a little photo of him in the ring. Got it, by gosh!!:)

Wow! He was far more 'leggy' than I imagined. I can see where he might be considered abit "weedy" as a 2-3 year old though. This is one of the qualities my mare lacks, and since Rosenthal himself has a good bit of leg I'm hoping this will come through in the foal.

[talloaks]

I heard that Rubenstein had "soft" pasterns but certainly overcame that conditon wih proper training. Has anyone had any offspring of his or his sons with this condition?

[Home Again Farm]

Whoever to you the Rubinsteins are "not easy" is not in the know. Temperament, willingness and rideability is what he stamps IMO.

[janderegelaar]

Never had the privilige to see him in the real but we do own his full sister. She will be 22 next year and is still compeeting 4th level dressage in Holland. She is the most easiest horse you can wish to have. She is graded Elite with the KWPN. Below is a picture of her
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3041/3112111816_bce97e7fa8.jpg
And this is her daughter by Balzflug, she is also 4th level in dressage and 4th level in jumping:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3174/3035079160_b172c7d4fd.jpg
her son Patinels is doing PSG in the US, her other son Unique van het Overwater is also doing 4th level dressage and is a licensed stallion.

[florida foxhunter]

I have seen Rosenthal in person and he's gorgeous. I have a Claim to Fame full sister in foal to him for this spring!
My Rubenstein grandson, Debonair, is barefoot.......and not only shows in the hunters, but also FOXHUNTS with some of the roughest hunts in the US!! I led the field on him Sunday as a matter of fact.......rode HARD for four and a half hours. I'm sorer than he is!!
He is a dream to hunt.....so sensible and quiet.....and I love the uphill ride when running downhill, haha. He's even taken me over a four foot four board fence when hunting in MD with the famous Green Springs hunt! His pasterns are a bit short if anything, but his feet and bone are great!!!

P.S. I did laugh at that person who said that to me......and told them they were way off base!

[Kyzteke]

I have seen Rosenthal in person and he's gorgeous. I have a Claim to Fame full sister in foal to him for this spring!
My Rubenstein grandson, Debonair, is barefoot.......and not only shows in the hunters, but also FOXHUNTS with some of the roughest hunts in the US!! I led the field on him Sunday as a matter of fact.......rode HARD for four and a half hours. I'm sorer than he is!!
He is a dream to hunt.....so sensible and quiet.....and I love the uphill ride when running downhill, haha. He's even taken me over a four foot four board fence when hunting in MD with the famous Green Springs hunt! His pasterns are a bit short if anything, but his feet and bone are great!!!

P.S. I did laugh at that person who said that to me......and told them they were way off base!

Wow -- a foxhunter? Never thought Rubinstein produced jump.

Yeah, my Rubinstein granddaughter has super feet as well -- the only one with better feet are my two Arabs. She is barefoot too and does really well (although I don't ride her as hard as you ride yours). And I remember her sire, Rubino Bellisamo did the entire 11 month Celle testing barefoot -- and that included the cross country jumping.

So sounds like they are (in general), fairly sound, solid horses with good gaits that can be developed and super minds & trainability.

I can deal with that....especially then they are black or black bay.

[vtwmbld]

I also had the pleasure of seeing Rubinstein in person while on a visit to Gestuet Vorveck. He was very impressive and stood like a real gentleman while we oohed and ahhhed over him. It took me another ten years or more before I finally acquired a daughter of his and I can only say one bad thing about her, which is that she only has colts:sadsmile: She's quite substantial and yet very feminine and is a model of decorum. She had already had at least 8 colts in Germany and went on to give us 3 more colts. She remained open one year and I foolishly assumed that she must have been trained while in Germany, so we saddled her and climbed aboard. She stood stock still and just turned her head as if to say "are you nuts?" After much pushing and prodding she decided that we must have some idea of what we're doing and walked off. I found out later that she had only been used as a broodmare and was never backed. She was 13 at this time and still more than willing to learn. Whoever said that the Rubinstein offspring can be difficult must have based their opinion on one unusual example. All the ones we've started, so far, have been really easy and are hacking out and behave like pros right from the start. My dream, also, is to get a black filly out of this mare, but alas, I'm beginning to lose faith.

[MoSwanson]

I was at a horse show in Germany with a friend about 20 (?) years ago. It was a big show with dressage, jumpers and ponies all at the same venue. Far across the three or four schooling rings I saw the most beautiful black horse schooling passage and piaffe. I went over to see what horse it was, and it turned out to be Rubinstein. A year later, we were shopping for foals and we saw quite a few by him. They were beautiful types with pleasing, but not spectacular movement. I wish now I had bought one!

[Cold Spring Farm]

Thanks for posting that photo, Talloaks! I have never seen that one, and it amazes me how my Rosenthal son favors Rubenstein in that photo. My guy is very leggy and at three, really needs to grow into those legs. He is a scootch over 16h at the moment...mostly legs.

Funny thing -- he is out of a barely 15h Arab mare who herself is not what I would call "leggy" in the least! (And he is like riding a wet noodle! There is absolutely no resistance anywhere in his body. Hoping my "noodle" becomes a little more "al dente" with work!)

[Bellfleur]

All of my Rosenthal offspring had super dispositions even when the mare was a bit (ok a lot) hot and not so easy to deal with. They also can jump and well.

I was told by a German GP rider and trainer that my latest to be started Rosenthal daughter is quote "this is one for the big ring":D:D:D. She was under saddle within 3 days of being started. Her mind is just unbeatable!! It doesn't hurt that she has three pretty special gaits too.

We were trying to use the plastic bag to get some loose video of my Relevant daughter. Hah she just chased it like a cat chasing a cat toy. A friend of mine took her to her first ever show and another friend handed up her coat in the cold and windy day. Still in the plastic wrap from the dry cleaners. My friend just took it out of the bag while still on and then handed the bag back down with it flapping in the wind and making popping noises. The 5 year old mare could have cared less.

I love the R line dispositions.

[Kyzteke]

I also had the pleasure of seeing Rubinstein in person while on a visit to Gestuet Vorveck. He was very impressive and stood like a real gentleman while we oohed and ahhhed over him. It took me another ten years or more before I finally acquired a daughter of his and I can only say one bad thing about her, which is that she only has colts:sadsmile: She's quite substantial and yet very feminine and is a model of decorum. She had already had at least 8 colts in Germany and went on to give us 3 more colts. She remained open one year and I foolishly assumed that she must have been trained while in Germany, so we saddled her and climbed aboard. She stood stock still and just turned her head as if to say "are you nuts?" After much pushing and prodding she decided that we must have some idea of what we're doing and walked off. I found out later that she had only been used as a broodmare and was never backed. She was 13 at this time and still more than willing to learn. Whoever said that the Rubinstein offspring can be difficult must have based their opinion on one unusual example. All the ones we've started, so far, have been really easy and are hacking out and behave like pros right from the start. My dream, also, is to get a black filly out of this mare, but alas, I'm beginning to lose faith.

Oh, how funny!! But that sounds just like my Ruby! The only time she ever misbehaved was when I took her to her AHS mare inspection (figures) -- she tore around like Secretariat on meth, performing caprioles 2 ft. from the inspector's head <!>. Of course, I didn't help her -- assuming she would be as quiet as she normally is, I didn't do anything to prepare her. It was the first time she'd been off the farm alone in YEARS...AND I found out that afternoon she was ovulating...which didn't help considering some brain trust assigned her a stall right next to a breeding stallion.

But over all, she has been a real sweetie and LOVES people...craves human interaction more than just about any horse I've ever known. Once she was eating in her stall and I walked behind her. At the time I had a dog (heeler) who would sneak up and nip at the heels when I wasn't watching, so I think Ruby thought I was the dog. She lashed out with her hind leg and AS SOON as it made the slightest contact with my thigh she stopped. I mean, stopped DEAD. Never even left a bruise...just got a bit of dirt on my pants. Amazing control.

She has only had 2 foals so far -- both colts -- so I figure I'm due a filly, although your post is alittle discouraging. EIGHT COLTS?!?!? Please say it ain't so! A friend at work claims psychic powers and she said it's a black filly with a small star (she is not a horse person and didn't know anything about either Ruby or Rosenthal, so that was interesting).

We'll see....

[Kyzteke]

I was at a horse show in Germany with a friend about 20 (?) years ago. It was a big show with dressage, jumpers and ponies all at the same venue. Far across the three or four schooling rings I saw the most beautiful black horse schooling passage and piaffe. I went over to see what horse it was, and it turned out to be Rubinstein. A year later, we were shopping for foals and we saw quite a few by him. They were beautiful types with pleasing, but not spectacular movement. I wish now I had bought one!

I bet you do!!

I understand that many of the "R" don't have the fancy, dynamic movement you see many times at inspections and such, but because they are generally athletic, intelligent and REALLY want to work, those gaits can be developed into something really, really special.

[janderegelaar]

Wow -- a foxhunter? Never thought Rubinstein produced jump.

Actually...Rubinstein himself had big scores in his stalliontest for jumping. His full sister Fatinels ( our mare ) scored only 7,5's for jumping at her mare test with the KWPN. Her daughter Matinels ( our other mare ) is Z level jumping and Z level dressage.
Rubinstein sister Palencia by Polydor is Z level in jumping and his other sister Wiltrud by Weinhang is a Interational Jumpig Horse. A lot of people think this line is a pure dressage line but it's actually very allround.

[Kyzteke]

Actually...Rubinstein himself had big scores in his stalliontest for jumping. His full sister Fatinels ( our mare ) scored only 7,5's for jumping at her mare test with the KWPN. Her daughter Matinels ( our other mare ) is Z level jumping and Z level dressage.
Rubinstein sister Palencia by Polydor is Z level in jumping and his other sister Wiltrud by Weinhang is a Interational Jumpig Horse. A lot of people think this line is a pure dressage line but it's actually very allround.

I did not know this. I knew Weltmeyer had good scores for jumping in his testing, although he never produced a quality jumper that I'm aware of.

Very interesting.

[honeylips]

I did not know this. I knew Weltmeyer had good scores for jumping in his testing, although he never produced a quality jumper that I'm aware of.

Very interesting.

Wonderland and Waikiki.

[Kyzteke]

Wonderland and Waikiki.

I don't follow jumping as much as dressage. What level did these guys compete at? Do you happen to know what their dam lines were like?

I breed primarily for dressage, but a multi-talented horse is always a good goal.

[janderegelaar]

The total score of Rubinstein's test was 136.56 ( 3rd of 66 )
Dressage index 134.91 (5th)
Jumping index 124.82 (4th)

[Kyzteke]

The total score of Rubinstein's test was 136.56 ( 3rd of 66 )
Dressage index 134.91 (5th)
Jumping index 124.82 (4th)

Amazing -- he actually scored higher in jumping than dressage? Learn something new every day!

[DownYonder]

Don't forget that Rubinstein's sire descends from the great AA stallion Ramzes, who was also the progenitor of the "R" line in show jumpers.

Rubinstein also has the Hanoverian stallion Diplomat in his pedigree, who had some success as a jumper.

And for those wondering why Rubinstein line horses sometimes throw a not so refined head - these horses are a few generations back in Rubinstein's pedigree.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/dilettant
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/dolman4

Dolman is actually found in the sire line and dam line of Rubinstein's pedigree, so I can certainly understand why he and his descendants might sometimes throw an old-fashioned head.

[Oakstable]

Wow, that Dolman head would be a good reason not to linebreed on the R line.

[not again]

There are many riders who only consider the whole horse and its talents, not the part to hang the bridle on as being the most important. Holsteiners, among others, often carry many crosses to the "R" and have the performance success to go with it.

[talloaks]

There are many riders who only consider the whole horse and its talents, not the part to hang the bridle on as being the most important. Holsteiners, among others, often carry many crosses to the "R" and have the performance success to go with it.


Holsteiner breeders wouldn't have to worry about Dolman in their breeding of the R line since Dolman is Hanoverian top and bottom.

[not again]

Thanks Talloaks for clarifying----my point exactly. Linebreeding the "R" requires researching the damline too.

[Oakstable]

I have bred a Ramiro granddaughter to Riverman. The resulting gelding has four crosses to Ramzes, three through Ramiro and one through Rigoletto.

So it does matter which branch of the Ramzes family we're talking about.

The first foal I produced was by a Trakehner stallion out of an appendix mare, and that foal had a slight Roman nose. I have no idea how he got it but he was very talented so I am well aware you don't ride the nose.

I would work hard tho to avoid that Dolman nose showing up.

[jdeboer01]

It looks like Angelo, Rubinstein's damsire's head wasn't all that clunky. Not so much so for Rosenkavalier though. And Holy COW (literally, almost:)), I'm sure Dolman and Dilattant were "pretty on the inside", though! :lol:

Judy

[Kyzteke]

Don't forget that Rubinstein's sire descends from the great AA stallion Ramzes, who was also the progenitor of the "R" line in show jumpers.


Yes, he's a legend. I bred to Werigo simply because he was a grandson of Ramzes and they just don't come up that often.

Ramzes himself was such a producer of multi-talented stock, I guess I shouldn't be surprised that Rubinstein could jump. But somehow you never hear of his jumping scores -- it's all dressage, dressage, dressage.

Now, when you start talking about the Holsteiner line that Ramzes founded, he is known as a jump producer.

What an amazing sire he was!

As for linebreeding to Rubinstein -- it's a done deed now and I'm thinking I can't really see the head when I'm riding. I have Arabs out there in the pasture as well, so if I have a hankering to look at a pretty head, I'll look at them <g>.

The R line has SO many other fine qualities to consider, all of which are more important that the head. And who knows -- maybe I'll get lucky and the Rubino B./Karon head will come to the fore....

[back in the saddle]

Like several have already said,,, I didn't realize Rubenstein was so leggy. I always had him pegged as 'old style'.

[Oakstable]

Kyzteke,
So what/who is your linebreeding project?

[Home Again Farm]

Kyzteke,

Here is the head on my linebred to Rubinstein.

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j96/homeagainfarm/Rina_2yr_hed2.jpg

[Oakstable]

Mary Lou,
What is the pedigree of that horse with a lovely head?

[Home Again Farm]

She is by Bugatti (Bergamon/ Rubinstein I/ Donnerhall) out of Wintermaske (Weltbekannt/ Rubinstein/ Sendbote). She is Winter's 2004 ET foal Ballerina, who was jingled back to health on this board after her very rocky start in life.

[Oakstable]

Well you can't get a prettier head than that.

Have you found a lot of Trakehner in her pedigree?

[Kyzteke]

Kyzteke,
So what/who is your linebreeding project?

Sounds like I'm some mad scientist hunched over a smoking test tube <G>!

This year I bred my Rubinstein granddaughter (by Rubino Bellisimo) to Rosenthal.

Here is a photo album of the mare:
http://good-times.webshots.com/album/561307308nNIvNN

If you click through the album, it does have one head shot of her. I would say the photos are pretty accurate except for in some her neck looks short, which is definitely is NOT. She has a long, lovely neck...one of her best features. In fact, if I have to fault her at all it is in that she is rather "long" in general (except her legs, which I would like to lengthen). In this aspect she took more after her dam who was by Batido (Bolero) out of an "E" line-mare.

What I wanted to improve was to shorten the back, strengthen the hindquarter (add more engine), lengthen the legs, keep bone/super feet/good legs (all of which she has) and pretty up the head (may have to give that one up).

She has a very lovely walk (her best gait), good trot and good canter. It would be nice to improve of ALL of her gaits, but even if we keep the status quo they are good enough to do the job.

Her temperament is like most of the "R" horses I've heard of: SUPER willing, hard working, sweet, people loving, etc. And so far both her foals by two VERY different stallions have gotten that temperament. Both are owned by adult ammie women "of a certain age," and both were easily started u/s by their owners with very little professional assistance.

My hope is a black/black-bay "keeper" filly for myself, but I choose Rosenthal because a) He is a Rubinstein son and I wanted to try the linebreeding b) he seems to be strong in all the areas I wanted to improve on my mare c) he is known for his good nature/good gaits
d) he is a popular stallion, homozygous for black and if I have the "misfortune" to get a colt, it will be highly marketable as an amateur dressage mount.

Was I wrong in my critical thinking? Of course, when I posted a thread this spring asking about linebreeding to Rubinstein, no one brought up the head issue, but I'm not too worried about that. If I DO get a funky head it could have just as easily come from my mare's dam side, and that is there no matter WHO I breed her to. Also, I'm hoping that the Rubino B. (who has a lovely head) and the Karon influence (who obviously gave Rosenthal his head) will come through.

BTW, I also chose Rosenthal because I loved Karon and so many of his offspring (Caprimond jumps to mind immediately), so I did like his damline very well.

But again, if I have to give up anything, it's the head. After all, this isn't Arab halter breeding. Heads are nice, but everything else is SO much more important.

As for Dolman -- granted, he doesn't have a "pretty" head, but that picture looks like his lower jaw is weird. I mean, if you cover the lower jaw, his head doesn't look bad at all (for a stallion). And Rubinstein himself has a rather small (although square-ish) head himself from what I can tell.

So we shall see.... now, I need to get back to stirring my cauldron!

[Kyzteke]

Kyzteke,

Here is the head on my linebred to Rubinstein.

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j96/homeagainfarm/Rina_2yr_hed2.jpg

WOW!!!!! I'll take one JUST like that!

HAF: In this case, what would you say this gorgeous gal got from the sire & from the dam?

[Home Again Farm]

Well you can't get a prettier head than that.

Have you found a lot of Trakehner in her pedigree?

Her mother Wintermaske is my first daughter from my Rubinsten mare Rubizza. Rubi has a noble head - not at all coarse, but not terribly refined. Rubi's pedigree:

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/rubizza

Rubi's head:

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j96/homeagainfarm/rubi_hed2.jpg

Winter has a very beautiful, dished face and seems to pass it on to her daughters. You saw Ballerina. Here is her daughter Soliloquy by Stedinger:

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j96/homeagainfarm/Lily_hed_GA1.jpg

Her Stedinger colt has a nice head, but not as typey as the daughters.

Winter's head:

http://www.homeagainfarm.com/images/Winandjudge.jpg

I'd say there is some Trakehner blood back there on top and bottom, but not to a huge extent.

[Oakstable]

I have a filly who is by DeLaurentis out of an Oldenburg mare. I started poking around in the back of her pedigree and I see several crosses to Dolman WAY back. Warmbloods in the old days had hammar heads. I also see four crosses to Absatz and there is some more Trakehner in there.

I read that the Trakehners got too focused on breeding for "pretty" but one can understand why they did when those pretty stallions were in demand to counter the Dolman's.

Some years back, I bred to Domingo and the resulting colt had a D line head. The dam of the colt is a 1971 model Hanoverian with a really pretty head. (I still have her.) She is Wendenburg/Einblick/Lugano I.