USHJA Convention--New Rules & Changes

[111]

Let me prface this by saying NOTHING is written in stone YET!
These are some highlights of what changes are coming:

1. USEF Medal Finals--there is a new point system in place right now, for this year. I actually think it will be easier to qualify. No more blue ribbons & riders can keep showing, they don't have to stop when qualified. OK, here's the biggy: at the finals at Harrisburg, Saturday will no longer have a warm-up class; it will be a short equitation course & ONLY those riders who reach a certain score will be able to show on Sunday.

2. Trainer certification--they are going ahead with this program, but are years away from it being mandatory or even organized. They need to fill in a lot of gaps to make this work.

3. All of the new fees are here to stay! They were not really discussed, it was implied that they need $ for the new USHJA building at KHP.

4. For professional hunter divisions, starting 12/1/09, HOTY will be calculated by money won , not points

5. Hunter/jumpers will NOT have to use the horse's breed name when showing.

Those are the highlights, IM me or ask about anything else; I'll try to answer what I can.
Not starting trouble just giving everyone a heads up!

[S A McKee]

Let me prface this by saying NOTHING is written in stone YET!
These are some highlights of what changes are coming:

4. For professional hunter divisions, starting 12/1/09, HOTY will be calculated by money won , not points

5. Hunter/jumpers will NOT have to use the horse's breed name when showing.



Are you positive that HOY will be calculated by $ won? Rule change proposals need to be voted on at the USEF convention.

[VirginiaBred]

5. Hunter/jumpers will NOT have to use the horse's breed name when showing.




"Breed" name?

[Seven-up]

"Breed" name?



I wonder if that's supposed to mean registered name?

[VirginiaBred]

I wonder if that's supposed to mean registered name?

Me too.

If an animal has a registered prefix, there are fees involved for dropping them.

[111]

Like I said these are what PASSED at USHJA convention, nothing is done till it is voted on at USEF & finalized.

$ instead of points is what the big hunter riders want HOTY to be changed to, IF passed it won't start till 12/1/09--it is ONLY for Professional hunter divisions(1st & 2nd year, green & regular conformation & regular working hunter)

There was a proposal from the breeders committee that you had to show your horse for it's whole life under it's registered breed name, not whatever you changed it to. USHJA voted that this would not apply to hunters & jumpers

[BlueBobRadar]

That's really interesting about the equitation finals! When will we know for sure? Will USHJA announce this soon? No updates on their website about the convention yet.

[pattnic]

There was a proposal from the breeders committee that you had to show your horse for it's whole life under it's registered breed name, not whatever you changed it to. USHJA voted that this would not apply to hunters & jumpers

It was actually proposed by the Morgan committee and also by an individual who is prominent in Morgans. Regardless, I am VERY pleased to hear that it did not pass here!

[MHM]

Whoa, I'd be unhappy to qualify and drag a horse all the way to Harrisburg and not get to do the class on Sunday!

[111]

I agree with you about the Medal finals at Harrisburg!
I suggest anyone who thinks this is wrong call, email or do whatever to let the USHJA equitation task force know we don't want this! They claim Harrisburg/Farm Show Arena want the #s down, yes in 2007 there were 292; the highest # ever, this year 272. I think it's a long day & some people want to shorten it, for their own reasons. My feeling is this is a HEALTHY CLASS, why mess with it?

[MHM]

I seem to recall a time or two when they had over 300 in the class at Harrisburg.

For sure, that's too many, and makes for too long a day, but I think it would be better to make it harder to qualify, rather than let people qualify and go all the way there, only to get cut on Saturday.

I remember the year they did that approach with the Maclay when it was still at the Garden. NOBODY was happy with it, hence the invention of the Maclay Regionals.

[lauriep]

It was actually proposed by the Morgan committee and also by an individual who is prominent in Morgans. Regardless, I am VERY pleased to hear that it did not pass here!

Why would the Morgan committee have anything to do with USHJA? It was a proposal by the breeders' committee to simplify keeping track of the horses they bring into this world after they are sold.

[pattnic]

Why would the Morgan committee have anything to do with USHJA? It was a proposal by the breeders' committee to simplify keeping track of the horses they bring into this world after they are sold.

IF you read the proposed rule change, it specifically says that it was proposed by the Morgan Committee and Loretta Brown, who is a Morgan person. It was not specifically a H/J proposal; it was a proposed change to the general USEF rules, so it would effect H/J in that sense.
I believe the reason behind it would be "breed promotion" more than anything else (because EVERYONE will recognize Cabot French Pepper as being a uniquely "Morgan name":rolleyes:).
Breeders were on board with the idea for the reason you state, but the proposal did not come from them.

[Tackpud]

The rule change proposal about using the horse's registered name was voted down as written and that recommendation will go the USEF board from here.

It was suggested that the rule change be amended to add:

Exception: Hunters and Jumpers

With that amendment, I think it was approved since it would not pertain to our discipline.

Please remember that this convention was to have the general membership discuss and vote on the proposed rule changes and send their recomendations to the USHJA board. The USHJA board then votes on what their recomendations will be to the USEF.

[PineTreeFarm]

IF you read the proposed rule change, it specifically says that it was proposed by the Morgan Committee and Loretta Brown, who is a Morgan person. It was not specifically a H/J proposal; it was a proposed change to the general USEF rules, so it would effect H/J in that sense.
I believe the reason behind it would be "breed promotion" more than anything else (because EVERYONE will recognize Cabot French Pepper as being a uniquely "Morgan name":rolleyes:).
Breeders were on board with the idea for the reason you state, but the proposal did not come from them.

Yes, would impact general rules.
There were two very similar proposals

024-08 Loretta Brown
278-08 Morgan Committee

Both are in the rule change brochure for the usef convention but in the tracking section portion of USEF rule changes only 024-08 is listed. Maybe one change was pulled because they were so similar.

As Pattnic says, neither one originated with a USEF H/J committee or USHJA committee.

[Tackpud]

Tracking number 278-08 was withdrawn.

[katie16]

. . . They claim Harrisburg/Farm Show Arena want the #s down, yes in 2007 there were 292; the highest # ever, this year 272. I think it's a long day & some people want to shorten it, for their own reasons. My feeling is this is a HEALTHY CLASS, why mess with it?

I don't have any easy fix, but can understand that this is a VERY long day for the judges. Despite the best efforts I am sure they give, I cannot imagine that they give everyone equal attention for hours and hours on end. Human nature needs a break sometimes. Maybe this was a compromise of sorts? Trying to stay away from another "regional semi-final" like the Maclay, and also away from stricter qualifying requirements that just seem to pound the horses more - don't really know, just my thoughts . . .

[Release First]

I can't imagine spending the kind of money that it takes to get a horse to the Maclay finals from the West Coast and not being able to ride in them because your horse spooks his first time in the ring. There has to be a better solution.

[katie16]

I can't imagine spending the kind of money that it takes to get a horse to the Maclay finals from the West Coast and not being able to ride in them because your horse spooks his first time in the ring. There has to be a better solution.

NOT picking on you, but what would you propose instead? I ask because I feel that it is only fair for us to criticize if we then in turn offer constructive ideas toward what we perceive to be a better solution.

As stressful as it already is for the Maclay, I think I would probably vote for another regional qualifer for the medal.

Or, run the medal finals over an additional day (thus splitting up the number of riders on a given day for the initial round) - but I can see complaints coming that on day one it was cold, pouring rain, and windy and day to was quiet, warm, and sunny and therefore not everyone shared the same conditions. My only counter argument would be that it could be sunny in the morning and pouring rain in the afternoon on any given day! Of course this option would also require additional daily expenses as well.

I think there is NO easy solution here. There will be a bunch opposed to ANY solution that is proposed. I guess we just have to voice our opinions ahead of time and hope that they take them into consideration at the time of voting.

[Comfortably Numb]

They "need" the money for their new building at KHP? They should have thought about what they could afford before they started building. USEF and USHJA have the same mentality as teenagers, they don't have the money but they know they can get it from Mom and Dad.

[Ruby G. Weber]

I think their Medal Finals proposal is excellent. Every year there is a large percentage of riders who are over their head riding the type of track that must be set Sunday morning. The idea of a qualifier over an easier track is a great solution. Theoritically The green, inexperienced or first timers will have a better chance of leaving Harrisburg on a positive note, even if they don't make it through to Sunday. So many young riders are defeated by, not only their nerves but also the course Sunday morning at Harrisburg.

To those who complain a rider could be done on Saturday, welcome to the school of hard knocks. Young riders might as well learn early on how to extract something positive out of every situation - win or lose.

Points or money won - either way is not going to address the problem of excessive showing in order to "get in" Indoors and Devon. Here's a radical idea - at least for the pros. Yes count their money won - in all the divisions. Then allow the leading money winning riders to PICK what horse or horses (max 2/division) they want to show at Devon and Indoors.

IMO the trainer certification program needs a lot of work before it's proposed launch in June. So far it sounds like a college course except the professor forgot to include the horse.

[justathought]

The Medal Finals proposal is interesting. I am in agreement with most of the things said here... that being said, it means there is no easy solution.

BTW - while I agree that there are riders who are over faced at the finals (sometimes it is because the rider is not prepared and sometimes it is because the horse is overfaced) I do NOT agree that it is only the overfaced riders that would be weeded out. Just look at this year's and last year's finals, many "top" riders did not make it qaround without a stop or a major error. Also, there were any number of riders that had "no" name that had ridden sucessful courses at major shows like Devon or Lake Placid that did not have sucessful finals. Basically, I just think that the assumption that only overfaced riders had problems is just plain false.

I really do not like the idea of another Regional Semi-Final ... it means that a lot of kids work really hard all year long and still do not get to go to the Final. BTW, a lot of BNR do not make it through the Regionals either. Any horse and any rider can have an off day... too many times it happens at the wrong time.

More chasing for more points is probably not a good idea. The most consistent riders will probably not need to ride more shows than they do now, but most riders will. A rule that is harder on the horses is not a good thing - it also favors riders who have multiple horses and don't need to pund one horese to get there.

Shipping all the way from the west coast to do a "semi-final" is an expense that some may not want to do - and that is completely understandable.

200 plus riders is too many - too much gets lost and the judges, who IMO, do an unbelieveable job given the number of consecutive rounds are being asked to do too ,uch

So.... is there a solution that everyone will like - probably not

However, there are possible solutions that have not been explored, at least to my knowledge. How about limiting the number of shows that a rider can ride in to qualify? If USHJA/USEF reviewed the last several years, they could study the number of shows the "average" rider needed to qualify. Setting a limit on shows would have some negative ramifications - more pressure on riders to perform in the shows they select, and maybe less revenue for show managers since riders would not be able to show in the classes in which they hit their limit, but it is a different approach that might handle a number of the objections.

So... what do you think?

[BlueBobRadar]

I can't imagine spending the kind of money that it takes to get a horse to the Maclay finals from the West Coast and not being able to ride in them because your horse spooks his first time in the ring. There has to be a better solution.

(USEF medal finals:))
I was under the impression that the first day would be the first day of the finals, and Sunday would have the second round. I can see how this would be easier on the show management, and judges.

[Molly99]

The medal finals proposal would never work. The schooling class on saturday, is a SPEED course. There is NO way the show could spend more time per ride on an equitation course and still have the pony hunters, etc. Somehow I don't think anyone has asked the show that hosts the finals if this would work.

I am guessing that they schooling class as it is now, averages 1 minute per ride. Can you imagine the uproar if that is the time alloted for the judges to plan their course? There is no way you can make an equitation course in that time frame.

I know "they" said the show would like fewer riders on Sunday, and while that is probably true, I doubt this plan was their suggestion. There is just no way to fit in that many rides on Saturday.

I like the idea of taking only X shows to determine the points. Something similar to the hunters of the top 15 shows for points. You could limit the # of shows that points count from but that would allow the riders to show as much or as little as they want. They could easily find the average # of shows from the riders that earned the minimum # of points from this past year.

[quietly]

If you look at the numbers, making qualifying harder didn't work. They jacked the numbers up this year and a higher percentage of those that qualified showed up. It just added to the over running of the horses problem.

Something has to give, the numbers get bigger every year, which is good, growth of the sport is good, but over 300 in a day? jumping the same trip?

[khobstetter]

I stayed all the way through the very end of the Board of Directors meeting on Thursday. If you have a rule change proposal you would like info on, let me know and I can tell you what the final positions of the Board and Committees was. I can also tell you who proposed it and what section it was for (General Rules vs Hunters etc).

As to the building cost......USHJA has been renting space from USEF and as USHJA has grown it has become extremely difficult. That being said, it was obvious from the start that USHJA would need its own building and the time has come. The fees are not raised due to the building cost, there is a Capital Campaign going on for that purpose and its doing quite well, but tight.

To simplify the building campaign......one of the people did a math question and if every member gave $162.50 to the building fund, the building would be completely paid for!!! While I understand USHJA is not perfect, I do know that the kids that ride/rode with me have more programs and opportunities than ever before and I quickly paid the $162.50 AND I bought a tree.

I do not say this for any reason but to simplify the understanding for the membership, please ask what you want and I'll pull out the book and see if I can help.

[Molly99]

Actually the number was less this year. 2007 was the highest to walk into the ring. 2008 only 269 showed. Not sure of the # that actually qualified, only USEF would know that number. At one point the show said they had 280 entered, which is less than the over 300 from the year before.

I would guess that each year about 10 enter and never show, for various reasons. How many qualify and never enter? I am sure there are plenty.

It would be interesting to see if the number of riders that qualifed was much different vs. the numbr that entered.

I just don't think that this plan was very thought out in regards to the time it would add to Saturday. Yes, it would make Sunday shorter, but at what cost?

The riders still deserve a fair ride, especially if they now could end up with just one. The way it is now, they have two. And for some, knowing they don't have a chance a a call back, just getting around it their challenge/reward. Dumbing down the first round to put it on Saturday would not be very fair to them. IMO. I use dumbing down, only because it would have to be a rather simple test to make the time work.

I agree it the system needs work, but I just don't see how this plan is better. Still makes one really long day, just a different day :)

[gottagrey]

IF you read the proposed rule change, it specifically says that it was proposed by the Morgan Committee and Loretta Brown, who is a Morgan person. It was not specifically a H/J proposal; it was a proposed change to the general USEF rules, so it would effect H/J in that sense.
I believe the reason behind it would be "breed promotion" more than anything else (because EVERYONE will recognize Cabot French Pepper as being a uniquely "Morgan name":rolleyes:).
Breeders were on board with the idea for the reason you state, but the proposal did not come from them.

You have to remember that some of the proposed rule changes for USEF which are discussed at USHJA and local zone meetings can affect the rules for other disciplines -i.e. the Morgan breed example. Another example of this was a discussion several years ago about a rule change concerning adults riding ponies. Well from the H/J standpoint the rule made a lot of sense, however, in other disciplines such as USEA, Connemara and Welsh - that proposed rule change about adults riding ponies would/could have adversely affected adults riding ponies in USEF recognized events, Welsh and Connemara shows. Before anyone scoffs at adults riding ponies, remember Karen O'Connor and Theodore O'Connor 14.1 hands(RIP) won gold medals at the most recent Pan Am Games.

My point here is sometimes you have to think about some of the USEF rules and how they could affect other disciplines.

[quietly]

I was at the Eq meeting, they gave the numbers. In 2007, 81% of those who qualified showed, in 2008, 91% of those qualified showed. They also ran the numbers on how much the horses showed, to qualify with the higher points, the horses ran harder, more miles on the trailers (and thus the horses).

It looks like with the win requirements out, it will probably be easier to qualify now, so chances are pretty good that the numbers will be higher this year which is not good, but the horses won't have to run as much, which is good.

[justathought]

I was at the Eq meeting, they gave the numbers. In 2007, 81% of those who qualified showed, in 2008, 91% of those qualified showed. They also ran the numbers on how much the horses showed, to qualify with the higher points, the horses ran harder, more miles on the trailers (and thus the horses).

It looks like with the win requirements out, it will probably be easier to qualify now, so chances are pretty good that the numbers will be higher this year which is not good, but the horses won't have to run as much, which is good.

This does not make a lot of sense to me. If the objective is to reduce the numbers at the final, it does not accomplish that goal. Without the win requirement, maybe the some horses will show less, but the bulk will continue to show until they hit the points required - still not good. These are the fundamental reasons I suggested that setting a limit on the number of shows that a rider can show in to attempt to qualify might accomplish both goals - cutting the numbers at the finals AND preventing the horses from punding so much. IMHO the solution to the problem is not to ignore it - which this idea seems to do - but to set outr the priorities and then to craft options that maximize meeting the priorities. Not sure why no other options were suggested.... but I am curious

[Release First]

I was at the Eq meeting, they gave the numbers. In 2007, 81% of those who qualified showed, in 2008, 91% of those qualified showed. .......

Boy, I find these percentages hard to believe. When you consider all of the people who live in the western half of the country and simply can't afford to go East. If my math is right if 269 showed and that represented 90% of the riders qualified then in the whole country only thirty riders qualified and didn't show. That is not right.

Can anyone explain?

[chunky munky]

Well, they can spook at the regionals too. I was at the meeting and most want to see a kid get to the finals if they are qualified. You may look at the $$. That kid will remember and be able to say for the rest of their life that they went there. It means more than you think.

[War Admiral]

How about limiting the number of shows that a rider can ride in to qualify? If USHJA/USEF reviewed the last several years, they could study the number of shows the "average" rider needed to qualify. Setting a limit on shows would have some negative ramifications - more pressure on riders to perform in the shows they select, and maybe less revenue for show managers since riders would not be able to show in the classes in which they hit their limit, but it is a different approach that might handle a number of the objections.

So... what do you think?

I really like this idea!!! :yes:

[Andrew]

"I think there is NO easy solution here. There will be a bunch opposed to ANY solution that is proposed. I guess we just have to voice our opinions ahead of time and hope that they take them into consideration at the time of voting."


With that said..."if" they are replacing the Saturday Warm-up and start judging(qualiflying rounds instead) why not just split the class in half and judge the first half after the Prix de States( move that back) and start the 1st round of the Medal at 7pm Saturday night and the 2nd half Sunday Morning starting at 9am.?

Everyone should have been practicing/training at an indoor facility prior to coming to HGB. Back in the day ('80's) many hauled to a facility who didn't have an indoor to train and practice. I think there might be an indoor show or 2 prior to HGB to warm up at as well.

Just throwing this out there...

[Jumper221]

I'd be mighty pissed if I shipped all the way to Harrisburg for a little mistake or possibly a political decision, over a simple, 60 second eq. course prevent me from getting to show what I can do over the real course Sunday. There's just not enough time in the day on Saturday to make a good enough course to be a fair test of who's capable of doing the real course without going into the middle of the night.

I don't think the answer to unprepared riders is dumbing down the first round and running it on Saturday; it's toughening up the rest of the year. Enforce the class requirements. Instruct stewards not to let the class run if the fences aren't 3'6. Make more detailed and challenging course requirements. Make cross-entry restrictions to prevent 4 childrens hunter riders from filling to allow the 2 crappy big-eq riders to qualify.

If point-chasing is the issue, perhaps make a rule about the number of medal classes you can enter per week, to prevent riders from going to a different show every day, like happens so often in the Northeast during the summer. But once you've qualified, and shipped all the way across the country, it would really be a shame to not even get a real chance to test your ability on Sunday.

[IslandGirl]

4. For professional hunter divisions, starting 12/1/09, HOTY will be calculated by money won, not points

Yet another example of USEF proposing rules that make horse showing an even MORE elitist sport. I can think of several reasons off the top of my head why this proposed change only benefits wealthy owners and the most elite professionals, not the "average" owners or the sport in general:

Pro riders/trainers will encourage owners to have their horses compete only at shows that pay higher money, most likely resulting in higher horse showing fees for the owners. After all, if the show pays more money, it usually charges more money. Horse shows are having enough trouble coming up with prize money as it is. Are they going to implement a "nominating fee" for the professional hunter divisions in order to meet the USEF-dictated payout requirements? Guess who will end up paying for THAT...
There's already a trend of fewer and fewer horses moving up through the 1st year/2nd year/working hunter ranks. This latest proposal will further discourage owners that don't have unlimited funds from even considering the possibility of having their horse move up. Only owners with $$ and riders/trainers benefit.
Up-and-coming pros (riders/trainers) with less-than-wealthy clients will find themselves essentially "locked out" of the new "elite pro" divisions.
Smaller shows (read: non-AA rated) will have to "dumb down" classes they offer even further than they already have, and will not offer ANY professional divisions because of USEF payout requirements. Trainers will avoid taking their clients to those shows because the trainer won't be able to make as much money. This will put some of the smaller shows out of business because of lack of entries, thereby resulting in even more entries and money for the larger shows, and fewer options for those in the "lower level" of the sport.
Although I'm an amateur, I sometimes show one of my own horses (and have even had some success) in the Working Hunter division (a "pro" division), and even had designs on chasing points next year for HOTY (in concert with having a pro compete him most of the time). The new system would make it nearly impossible for me to be even remotely competitive for HOTY, as I couldn't possibly get to ALL "big" shows without putting the entire rest of my life on hold, and living on the road for the bulk of the year. My husband would NOT go for that, not to mention the hit my wallet would take. Plus, I'm not willing to do that to my horse.Don't get me wrong. I'm certainly NOT against pro riders and trainers making money. I just believe that USEF is more focused on benefitting THEM (and itself) rather than benefitting those of us that actually write the checks. For the sport of horse showing to become more prevalent, USEF needs to make it EASIER for the little guys, not harder. Shows this year are having to look for ways to costs for exhibitors to attract more of them. What's USEF doing? It's proposing rules that will make it more expensive and more difficult to get to the top of the sport. If the possibility isn't there, why even go for it? I, for one, most likely will forego renewing my USEF/USHJA membership in favor of more local, friendlier organizations where I can actually feel like I have a chance to be competitive.

I will most definitely voice my opinion of being strongly opposed to this rule change. I know many non-pros don't consider the implications of this change but, believe me, even those showing in the lower divisions will end up footing the bill for this.

[gg4918]

I am one of those who qualified but did not show. (Didn't know that I had qualified until it was too late).

I have to say, there ARE those riders who simply do not ride well over simpler/shorter courses. You can send them over a shortened, easier course on Saturday and they may just not focus and not do well but then if you were to send them over a more serious course on Sunday, they zero in and turn in a killer round. Just want to throw that out there. Rising to the occasion and such is the concept.

I personally disagree with the new proposed format. There has to be some other way around it. Time wise it wouldnt make sense for the horse show and rider wise, its not fair to the horses: for their absolute first time in the ring to when it matters most.

Perhaps a regional for Medal Finals would be a good idea? Or maybe the committee could look at the ______ # of points that a rider has won at a _____ # of shows. The #of shows that the points would be taken from would be pre-determined. So say, you look at riders' 20 shows and then the top ______ (pre-determined #) would be invited back for the final. Just a rough idea.

[Jumphigh83]

Adults CAN ride ponies(suitability counts!), just not in the pony hunter division. Please, if there is a god, adults , let alone PROFESSIONAL adults should NOT ride in the pony hunters against the six year olds. Give me a break. Karen (O'C) rode Teddy at the highest levels (good for her!!) not in the beginner novice junior division. So ride the ponies in the Pre Green, first year second year and working...as well as in the levels (jumpers)...Karen didnt ask for a special division for that great pony she just RODE it. Same goes for H/J ponies.

[slp]

Everyone should have been practicing/training at an indoor facility prior to coming to HGB. Back in the day ('80's) many hauled to a facility who didn't have an indoor to train and practice. I think there might be an indoor show or 2 prior to HGB to warm up at as well.

Just throwing this out there...

There is a huge difference between practicing in the average indoor ring and the show ring at Harrisburg. And, at least here in the midwest, there are no indoor shows offered that I know of prior to Harrisburg in October; everything is still held outside up to that point.

[findeight]

Adults CAN ride ponies(suitability counts!), just not in the pony hunter division. Please, if there is a god, adults , let alone PROFESSIONAL adults should NOT ride in the pony hunters against the six year olds. Give me a break. Karen (O'C) rode Teddy at the highest levels (good for her!!) not in the beginner novice junior division. So ride the ponies in the Pre Green, first year second year and working...as well as in the levels (jumpers)...Karen didnt ask for a special division for that great pony she just RODE it. Same goes for H/J ponies.

Amen, sister.

Ummm...not sure that limiting the shows to qualify would eliminate any pounding unless they are going to track non placing entries as well as point earners. Usually they mean they will only limit the shows that COUNT i.e. you placed and earned points. No limit on the times you can go in and try to do so and nobody is going to be policing how many times you entered and got squat. So you can keep going and pounding all you want as long as you aren't placing/earning points. if they intend to do so, no idea how that would be policed by the show offices and in gate.

Now, far as the warm up class...see the point of those that prefer it. HOWEVER you don't get warm up classes in all horse sports and disciplines. Trying to think how to word this but...think that is part of a Finals on the National level. You don't always get a warm up and, IMO, should not ever count on needing one. I understand, having shown several breed big deal champ shows in scary indoor places...without a warm up class. That is part of what makes those wins special.

[Janet]

Adults CAN ride ponies(suitability counts!), just not in the pony hunter division. Please, if there is a god, adults , let alone PROFESSIONAL adults should NOT ride in the pony hunters against the six year olds. Give me a break. Karen (O'C) rode Teddy at the highest levels (good for her!!) not in the beginner novice junior division. ...

But an adult (my sister) DID ride Teddy (then called Connor) in the Beginner Novice division. There may even have been juniors in the class. (She says that, even at that level, it was clear he was going to be a cross country superstar.)

Not sure the point you are trying to make. The ponies don't need any "special" breaks in eventing. Farnley Hawkeye (ridden by a junior) regularly beat the pros on horses at Novice and Training.

[Spotted Pony]

I don't think the answer to unprepared riders is dumbing down the first round and running it on Saturday; it's toughening up the rest of the year. Enforce the class requirements. Instruct stewards not to let the class run if the fences aren't 3'6. Make more detailed and challenging course requirements. Make cross-entry restrictions to prevent 4 childrens hunter riders from filling to allow the 2 crappy big-eq riders to qualify.

Having had a child that competed and qualified for the Medal Finals the last two years I agree with part of the proposal above. Class requirements do need to be more strictly enforced and the courses need to be more challenging at your average show. Most of these young riders put so much pressure on themselves to perform that it can be overwhelming. The average rider is not seeing anything close to the course that is set at Harrisburg on any given weekend. While the trainer may be setting up similar courses and challenges at home and the horse/rider is comfortable over similar obstacles - it is not the same.

I have witnessed BNT at smaller shows pressuring the course designer to "dumb down the course" so that they can get 6 riders around so the class counts. And while I don't disagree with having some sort of cross entering restrictions in some areas it is very difficult to get six entries to fill the classes. When all the "big" barns are traveling to the mega circuits the smaller shows are struggling to fill classes. I've thought that rather than six entries the minimum should be set at three with a smaller number of points awarded. A rider would still need to do well at one or two bigger shows in order to qualify but it would still allow some benefit for supporting those local A or C shows. Really I think a better option than getting "fillers" and getting full points.

As far as the schedule goes for Harrisburg, having a first round on Saturday and the final round on Sunday is not all that bad - providing that it is a challenging enough course on Saturday that the competitors believe they have actually accomplished something. I believe this might actually allow some of the lesser known, more consistent riders to shine. The course would have to be of sufficient difficulty to weed out those that are unprepared but not allow it to be a purely subjective decision by the judges. Also setting a percentage to move on, rather than a set score might be a better option.

As far as a warm up - there was none allowed at the Maclay Finals this year. Not a disaster but it was along way to go for just one class! At least this is a chance at two. And to add about the schedule conflict on Saturday - I'm sure that adjustments could be made in the schedule throughout the week to accomadate a change, just have to look at the big picture!

Just my thoughts -

[findeight]

Just guessing...but I'd bet the "set score" is actually going to be determined by a percentage of entrants throughout the early part of the class as it runs and not be something somebody thought of before hand and posted with the course diagram...."80 required to advance".

Probably be somewhat dynamic and depend on the average score of those competing at least until enough go to determine an average score.

[Tackpud]

There was plenty of discussion about the money won rule change. Some proposed ideas that I heard:

1) Exclude classics and hunter derby monies won

2) Make it 1 point = 1 dollar (that would basically make it the same as right now, just substitue money for points)

3) A percentage of the money won for each placing counting toward the year end award

I'm sure that this is going to be looked at closely and tweaked as necessary.

[pattnic]

You have to remember that some of the proposed rule changes for USEF which are discussed at USHJA and local zone meetings can affect the rules for other disciplines -i.e. the Morgan breed example. Another example of this was a discussion several years ago about a rule change concerning adults riding ponies. Well from the H/J standpoint the rule made a lot of sense, however, in other disciplines such as USEA, Connemara and Welsh - that proposed rule change about adults riding ponies would/could have adversely affected adults riding ponies in USEF recognized events, Welsh and Connemara shows. Before anyone scoffs at adults riding ponies, remember Karen O'Connor and Theodore O'Connor 14.1 hands(RIP) won gold medals at the most recent Pan Am Games.

My point here is sometimes you have to think about some of the USEF rules and how they could affect other disciplines.

Were you addressing this to me, or were you expounding on what I had already said?

[Blinky]

1. Can someone tell me why the proposal went from points to dollars? What is the purpose?

2. Re: the Eq Finals...seems that it would make sense to take the top 10 riders from each Zone determined by Points and that is who goes. If one of those people can't go then the next person does NOT move up to subsitute as they didn't qualify to begin with. You must only compete in one Zone declared at the beginning of the show year. No going from Zone to Zone.

[gg4918]

1. Can someone tell me why the proposal went from points to dollars? What is the purpose?

2. Re: the Eq Finals...seems that it would make sense to take the top 10 riders from each Zone determined by Points and that is who goes. If one of those people can't go then the next person does NOT move up to subsitute as they didn't qualify to begin with. You must only compete in one Zone declared at the beginning of the show year. No going from Zone to Zone.

The issue with taking top riders from Zones is that certain Zones are nowhere near as competitive as others. (think, comparing the michigan/midwest area to Zone 2 or 3). You could be excluding a TON of extremely qualified, talented, and successful riders. A rider that is ranked 15th or 20th in Zone 2 could consistently be whopping the butt of a top ten ranked rider from a less competitive Zone but that rider may not qualify and the rider from the less competitive zone would qualify.

Don't mean to start any fires, it IS known that Zone 2 and 3 are the most competitive, otherwise why would they have such high point requirements to get to regionals/finals?

[dags]

I agree with whomever said there is no way the percentages for qualifed vs. showed up at Harrisburg can be correct, and I would like to know if the error was just here or if that has actually been claimed by USHJA. There is no way that 90% of the riders that win our dumb downed qualifiers can afford to get to Harrisburg. At my barn as a kid out of the 10 of us that qualified I think 3 went.

So many points, but I'm only going to make one other: Yes, there is a nice feel to the idea that a National Finals should need no warm up, but this is not the hunters, this is equitation. This is NOT the horse's class to win or lose, it is the riders. There are some awesome horses that will never be okay their first time in the ring at a new indoor- you can fix some of them, and some of them will grow out of it, but some will absolutely never get better about it.

They're horses. If you want it to think nothing more of the Verizon Center than it would a hack in the ring on a nice summer day you are going to have to pay big, big bucks to get it. Or, you are going to have to drug it, deprive it of water, and lunge the heck out of it.

We're trying to find ways to encourage against this stuff. This is an equitation class, not the hunters. It is not the horse's to win or lose. If the riders should go sans warm-up fine, give the pros a class to take the horses in. Doesn't really solve the problem of time . . . and I'll have to think on that one, but right now this just seems the wrong direction.

[Ruby G. Weber]

There was a time when you showed in the Medal or Maclay Finals without benefit of Regionals or warm ups. You just did it. Maybe you got to show in the junior hunters before the Finals, maybe you didn't. At Syracuse, no warm up, no Eq horses in other divisions. If the trainers wouldn't make such a big deal about "the warm up" or the lack of one, the kids would learn not to depend on it.

M99 can't the schedule be tweaked to accommodate the new format?

[Molly99]

I wouldn't know if the schedule could be tweaked. Just going by the numbers from this past year on Saturday - you have three sections of ponies at 30 each, so 90 ponies to go hack and jump once. Then the winner stake which is not that many, then the schooling class. Using the number of 269 that did medal finals last year, you now are at minimum of 359 trips on the day, 3 u/s and multiple presentations. The evening was the final leg of the Jr Jumper Championship. The day already started at 7:30. At most you start at 7:00 and lose the winners stake. Still makes for a really short course if you want to get done in time for the evening.

I am not saying it can't be done, but that it is only going to change the day that is long. I personally don't think this will make the day any more special and if anything leave a bad taste in the mouths of all the other exhibitors that will be rushed through their classes.

Jr Weekend is 4 days and I don't think they can expand to start earlier. We are always told horses can't be there until the day before because of an event at the building. I assume that is true, but maybe just a reason to keep us all out :)

It will be interesting to see what happens and the effect it has on the # that qualify and how the show makes it work.

Can always try it for a year and go back or tweak it again.

Wouldn't be the first time.

[Andrew]

There was a time when you showed in the Medal or Maclay Finals without benefit of Regionals or warm ups. You just did it. Maybe you got to show in the junior hunters before the Finals, maybe you didn't. At Syracuse, no warm up, no Eq horses in other divisions. If the trainers wouldn't make such a big deal about "the warm up" or the lack of one, the kids would learn not to depend on it.

M99 can't the schedule be tweaked to accommodate the new format?

Well said.... at this point of the year one would think that you don't need ANOTHER schooling session... you either can or can't ride by HGB and it's a trainers responsiblilty both moraly and ethicaly to keep a student home if they feel over faced in such a venue.
Just go in and ride the course like in the "old' days like Ruby said.... carry on

[findeight]

Sorry, don't buy the "it is Eq, not Hunters and not the horse's to lose" arguement for an official warm up class. At all. What difference does that make in piling yet another class on one at the end of the year that, really, ought to not need it IF the rider deserves to be there?

Crap happens when you go horse show, as in life. Should be part of the test posed by a National Finals type class.

[pattnic]

Sorry, don't buy the "it is Eq, not Hunters and not the horse's to lose" arguement for an official warm up class. At all. What difference does that make in piling yet another class on one at the end of the year that, really, ought to not need it IF the rider deserves to be there?

Crap happens when you go horse show, as in life. Should be part of the test posed by a National Finals type class.

Ditto this; either the rider is good enough to handle a spook, or they're not. If they are riding at that level, they should be good enough to handle a spook. And if a judge is judging on that level, they should be able to make appropriate judments with regards to such.

[Blinky]

Agree that the warm up should not be necessary. Besides I've been to AA shows where there is no warm up for the Hunter divisions. At that level it shouldn't be needed. If your horse or you have a bad day it's called life. Life isn't based on Fairness.

Regarding the comment that some Zones are stronger than others. Yes this is true which is why I said no switching Zones for those that are trying to qualify. Top 10 needs to be the Top 10...just means those "weaker" zones need to work harder when it becomes time for the Final.

This all reminds me of how we are changing sports for the youngsters so that there are no winners as everyone wins. ???? But what is that message giving them as reality is there are winner and losers.

[Peggy]

I'm with Jumper221 and gg4918 on the Medal Finals. Some people rise to the challenge of a harder course and aren't going to do as well (relatively, compared to the rest of the class) over a dumbed-down quickie course. I'd rather see it be harder to get there in the first place, either by rule or self selection. Harder as in by ability, not by bank account. Restricting the number of shows that can count (without drops) or regional qualifiers or something. Then there's always the self selection thing. If you feel that a typical finals course is going to be too much for your kid or your horse, simply don't go. I realize that it would be an act of bravery on the part of trainers to tell some kids they aren't ready, but that's life. There's always next year, or not. Just because you "qualified" doesn't mean that you're qualified to ride over a legit finals course.

Caveat - I never did the big eq, nor have been to an eastern finals, but have watched a lot of finals out here on the left coast and have friends who have.

[MintHillFarm]

I seem to recall a time or two when they had over 300 in the class at Harrisburg.

For sure, that's too many, and makes for too long a day, but I think it would be better to make it harder to qualify, rather than let people qualify and go all the way there, only to get cut on Saturday.

I remember the year they did that approach with the Maclay when it was still at the Garden. NOBODY was happy with it, hence the invention of the Maclay Regionals.

I agree. It should be harder to get there rather than pare down the number of entries the day before. How will that work? Another set of Judges for Saturday, or same? Seems like it is all for the sake of saving time. Riding at the Medal Finals is a privilege and one gets to ride on that Sunday because they qualified.
.

[Ruby G. Weber]

The Medal (and other Eq finals) are meant to be a proving ground, a stepping stone, a way to develop future International riders. In that light - just because you qualify for the Olympics or the World Championships or the World Cup to name a few, or Harrisburg - doesn't give you the right to show on Sunday. In above mentioned Championships you first have to ride your way into the competition and then you have ride your way to the final. Why should Harrisburg be any different?

I hope management at Harrisburg can find a way to accommodate this proposed format. It will "feel" much more like a Championship contested over two days.

[Molly99]

The Medal (and other Eq finals) are meant to be a proving ground, a stepping stone, a way to develop future International riders. In that light - just because you qualify for the Olympics or the World Championships or the World Cup to name a few, or Harrisburg - doesn't give you the right to show on Sunday. In above mentioned Championships you first have to ride your way into the competition and then you have ride your way to the final. Why should Harrisburg be any different?

I hope management at Harrisburg can find a way to accommodate this proposed format. It will "feel" much more like a Championship contested over two days.
I had not thought about the "feel more like a championship" over two days. I do agree with that, but still wonder on the logistics of making it work. Given the management at Harrisburg, if this gets passed I am sure they will figure something out. I just hope it works for everyone and not just to let the trainers make their planes on Sunday night. :)

This past year with even the large # of riders was done at a very early hour for the # of riders. The average time per ride is really the issue and that is controlled by the course the judges set.

So I guess we wait and see what happens at the USEF convention. It is their class afterall.

[gg4918]

1st issue: I can handle a horse spooking but the issue is that many judges will still penalize me if he spooks in the first place. Its happened to me before, I handled the spook, got the distance, made the whole course work (despite the fact that he was obviously being a jerk with the spooking and I was doing my best to cope with the situation.) but yet I was not called back for the flat. I think that judges need to understand that we can't STOP the horse from spooking. Its a 1,000+ lb animal, if he wants to spook only a train could stop him. I can only do my best to make the situation work out and get the job done. I think something may need to be done about that.

2 issue: in the time alotted (a short equitation course) I don't believe that a challenging enough "finals type" course could be designed that will make riders feel that it was "worth" the travel and let them return home feeling satisfied. I just dont think that time-wise that its possible.

[TSWJB]

Yet another example of USEF proposing rules that make horse showing an even MORE elitist sport.
[/LIST] For the sport of horse showing to become more prevalent, USEF needs to make it EASIER for the little guys, not harder. Shows this year are having to look for ways to costs for exhibitors to attract more of them. What's USEF doing? It's proposing rules that will make it more expensive and more difficult to get to the top of the sport. If the possibility isn't there, why even go for it? I, for one, most likely will forego renewing my USEF/USHJA membership in favor of more local, friendlier organizations where I can actually feel like I have a chance to be competitive.

.
I agree with this 100%! making everything based on money, just makes it that much more expensive to show. just because an owner doesnt have an open checkbook doesn't mean the owner cannot have some high quality hunters to show. but it does mean that they will not get to exhibit these nice horses if they cannot afford the entry fees.
with the economy tanking it is amazing to me how the horsey set does not want to give up the notion that there are always plenty of people with alot of money to support what was in the past. wake up people! most people are being affected by the economy! and i think the USEF should be looking for more ways to make this sport based on skill of the horse and rider, not on who can afford to show at the most elite shows!

[MHM]

1st issue: I can handle a horse spooking but the issue is that many judges will still penalize me if he spooks in the first place. Its happened to me before, I handled the spook, got the distance, made the whole course work (despite the fact that he was obviously being a jerk with the spooking and I was doing my best to cope with the situation.) but yet I was not called back for the flat. I think that judges need to understand that we can't STOP the horse from spooking. Its a 1,000+ lb animal, if he wants to spook only a train could stop him. I can only do my best to make the situation work out and get the job done. I think something may need to be done about that.



Yes, horses do spook. And trip. And jump badly. And miss lead changes. However, the rider is supposed to be in charge of the horse, not the other way around. That means the rider is responsible for everything that happens, in the same way a driver is responsible for everything the car does.

If you get pulled over for speeding, you can try telling the cop, "It wasn't my idea to go too fast. My car was frisky and took off with me." Odds are you'll still get a ticket.

Granted, horses are less predictable than cars, but the rider is still supposed to be the one in charge of the operation.

If the judge is comparing two otherwise equal trips, the trip with no spook should beat the trip with a spook, regardless of how well the rider handled the spook.

[justathought]

RE: Eq Finals

It is absolutely true that the courses at the local shows need to be tougher and at regulation height - they should ask the same kind of questions of the riders as are asked at the finals - though maybe not all the questions in one course.

It is also absolutely true that a preliminary final round could be used to narrow the field for the final final - BUT if that is the way we go, then there are a few things that we should accept and some things that we must accept:

1. The preliminary finals round should be a real finals course - one that asks the questions and demands the ride that allows riders to shine - not a simple course with no demands
2. Some people who "should" make the finals will not... I, for one, am a little tired of the hearing that the problem with the medal finals is that the "unprepared" should not be there.... this year and last year there were plenty of BNR who did not have good rounds - stops, chips, etc.... and there were plenty of no name riders who had good rounds. There are unprepared riders - but they are not the only one who have problems

Setting up qualifying standards (I earlier proposed limiting the number of shows that a rider can show in to qualify - yes the riders the USEF or USHJA would have to track riders who did not pin but its already done for the horse results stuff) is the most rational way to limit the numbers at finals.

Making sure that every show that offers medal classes sets courses that are consistent with medal standards is another must

Having had a child ride in the finals - for many it is the culmination of a junior career - it would be nice to preserve that possibility -

[111]

At the equitation task force meeting at USHJA convention these were (roughly)
the #s that were given:

2007 #qualified-362 # entered-311 # competed-292
2008 #qualified-317 # entered-292 # competed-272

As you can see raising the points in 2008 DID lower the # that qualified
Why so many enter but don't show I don't know.
But in 2009 the new point system will make it EASIER to qualify
Riders will get: single points for 6-8 in the class
1.5 X points for 9-15
Double points for 16-25
2.5 X points for 26-30
Triple points for 30+
AND they have done away with the BLUE RIBBON requirements
So MORE kids will qualify
People keep saying how hard it is for the judges
Is it going to be any easier to judge a huge # in the warm up?

[mroades]

I for one like Harrisburg just the way it is....it is the one final "everyone" can go to, and dang it, I hate to see that change.
If you do the zone thing...it just leads to who has the most money again. How is my kid supposed to keep up with the Fla kids...there is no way. But my kids go to Harrisburg and get around and get their rose, and they have the experience of a lifetime. But even if my kids qulaify at regionals, they cant afford to go to Syracuse...leave that one to the more well-off kids!

[dags]

Sorry, don't buy the "it is Eq, not Hunters and not the horse's to lose" arguement for an official warm up class. At all. What difference does that make in piling yet another class on one at the end of the year that, really, ought to not need it IF the rider deserves to be there?

Crap happens when you go horse show, as in life. Should be part of the test posed by a National Finals type class.

No need to be sorry, you are entitled to this opinion. However, I doubt the horse is at all aware that it is a National Finals type class, whereas the riders are. The horse does not know nor care that an entire year is riding on the next two minutes. If we could get all of our horses to agree to put as much importance on those two minutes as us riders do, I might agree with you.

But we can't, so I find it odd that in the class judged specifically on the rider there is no warm up for the horse, whereas when it is judged on the horse you get 2-3 trips in there for your boy to find his flow, plus a hack. Seems like the hunters do understand the average equine psyche a bit better, a need for a chance to settle in. As riders we mill around the show for days, hang out with friends, loosen up our nerves, watch the ring from all kinds of angles, get in there, walk the course, study every possible option, see the fences under the lights and the crowd from inside of the arena. All the while our horses sit in 10 x 10 stalls.

The technical questions asked at Medal Finals that asses your ability to ride have nothing to do with your ablity to arrive there with a mount that can handle that format, that pressure, those jumps. When it comes down to it it's the horse's brain that makes most of this team work, and a good brain costs money. A good brain on a horse that actually has the talent to contend at Medal Finals costs a lot of money.

If there are too many what is the obvious answer? Invite fewer. Easily accomplished by not dumbing down qualifiers and get people that can legitimately ride that course over that size of fence. There are plenty of people at Finals that simply cannot answer the technical questions. There are also plenty of people that can answer those questions- any time, any day, but cannot afford the gorgeous, broke, stylish and awesomely brained animal that will actually get you a ribbon at Finals. Eliminate the ones that flat out can't answer the questions before they even get there, then give the ones that can the chance to show on the best horse they can muster.

This would give a nice number of exhibitors to work with, and to me it seems such the obvious decision. But, that's why we're all here to chat, right? To mill over all these opinions, which seem so obvious to each of us?

FWIW I love the idea of a two-day format with fewer riders.

[gg4918]

Amen.

[quietly]

The idea of tracking the number of classes is a good one in theory, but look at Devon and Washington, it doesn't work. People just keep running until they get a better top 20 shows than their last top 20 shows.

The idea of not dumbing down the courses during the year so that the lessor riders don't qualify is again, a good one, but who polices that?

[Lucassb]

1st issue: I can handle a horse spooking but the issue is that many judges will still penalize me if he spooks in the first place. Its happened to me before, I handled the spook, got the distance, made the whole course work (despite the fact that he was obviously being a jerk with the spooking and I was doing my best to cope with the situation.) but yet I was not called back for the flat. I think that judges need to understand that we can't STOP the horse from spooking. Its a 1,000+ lb animal, if he wants to spook only a train could stop him. I can only do my best to make the situation work out and get the job done. I think something may need to be done about that.

Actually, the rider who has the skill to keep the horse totally focused on the job at hand *should* beat the rider whose horse spooks.

Sorry, but that is equitation - it rewards total control of the horse, the track and the execution of the answers to the questions being asked. The rider who handles the spook and still gets the rest of the job done should beat a miss - but shouldn't and won't beat the rider who gets it done with a smooth, flowing course on a focused horse that is attending to the job at hand.

I don't dispute that it is easier to get that accomplished on a BT, DT horse, or that those horses frequently cost a fortune. It is the partly the demonstrated ability to step into a spooky ring and still do the job that makes them worth the big $$$, after all. However, it is also training, and mileage and just plain good solid riding - plenty of riders make up the horses that they compete on and do well even in spooky situations. If your horse spooks, you take your lumps from the judges; that's just part of the game.

[Jumper221]

The idea of tracking the number of classes is a good one in theory, but look at Devon and Washington, it doesn't work. People just keep running until they get a better top 20 shows than their last top 20 shows.

The idea of not dumbing down the courses during the year so that the lessor riders don't qualify is again, a good one, but who polices that?

Why can't the stewards police the courses? So many times the local shows run at less than 3'6. I've even been at shows running at 2'9 or 3' and bringing out pony kids to fill the classes. Of course kids qualifying at shows like that are going to struggle making it around the final.

The specs currently require the USEF Medal to be run at 3'6 with a combination including an oxer and two changes of direction. Give the steward the power to measure the fences and prohibit it from being run at anything less, and perhaps add to the specs to require the courses to be more challenging. That will cut down on the number qualifying and those that do qualify will have a better idea of what to expect.

I'm necessarily not opposed to using Saturday for a preliminary round rather than a warm-up, but I think it has to be significantly more complicated than the outside/diagonal/outside course than the warm-up uses. Weed out the ones that don't belong during the qualifying, not at the final.

[dags]

Actually, the rider who has the skill to keep the horse totally focused on the job at hand *should* beat the rider whose horse spooks.


Agreed, 100%.

But, as I understand it, we are trying to find a way to decrease the size of this class. It then becomes a question of whether you still invite 280 riders to the show, and eliminate 100 riders on Friday in a fake class . . . or invite 150 of the country's best, and give their horses a fair chance of being the best performers they can be, possibly over a two-day format (think about how easy those days would be!).

Tie in the Dumb Down aspect, the fact that correllates directly to the huge numbers of the class. We know that most of the horses walk into their dumb downed class sans the spook and stickiness they'll suddenly develop at Harrisburg. Shows that prep horses for one chance at two perfect minutes in an Indoor ring while they sit in a stall the rest of the week in the middle of a city do not exist. It's not prepping the horses for the setting any more than it is prepping the riders for the technical aspects of Medal Finals.

No one on a spooky, sticky, enthusiastic but still sharply careful, intelligent and stylish athlete is going to win a ribbon at Medal Finals, so that is not the point. It's which ones to weed out to meet the time constraints of the modern horse show. A lot of these horses are two different animals with one trip under their belt, it'd be a shame to punish those riders for giving them a chance to settle in, instead of tiring them on the end of a lunge, or worse.

I did Regional Finals for Maclay, there was no chance we were shipping back east from Zone VII for the 'real thing'. It was still every bit the highlight of a junior career it was supposed to be. The Regional Finals shouldn't be short changed, and if the quality is upheld there should be nothing but pride in winning a ribbon in these classes. California is a great example, they have GREAT regional championships, a product of necessity as they find every single Medal Final is on the opposite side of the country.


Words and fluff aside, do we eliminate the "sight-seeing round"? (Called that because in my argument "warm-up/schooling" is the wrong conotation. No questions really for the rider, just let the horse jump around, as the class is currently run) Or do we invite fewer of the people that we feel haven't been prepared by the subpar qualifiers? (ie: Fix the qualifiers. Obviously a much harder task)

[Andrew]

I think ya'all are making this way more complicated than it needs to be. In the words of Judge Judy, " make it simple stupid!"

Saturday's warm-up would be replaced as the beginning of the acutal Medal Finals with the first 100 riders. Sunday morning the remaining riders show with the top 25 coming back and final ride off.

Like Lucas said, those whose horses spook (which at this point shouldn't) will demonstrate control and ability to ride through it.

Again, I'll say it's the TRAINERS responsibility to know their students ablilities and not over face them if they truely aren't capable of such a venue.

[BAC]

Or, run the medal finals over an additional day (thus splitting up the number of riders on a given day for the initial round) - but I can see complaints coming that on day one it was cold, pouring rain, and windy and day to was quiet, warm, and sunny and therefore not everyone shared the same conditions. My only counter argument would be that it could be sunny in the morning and pouring rain in the afternoon on any given day! Of course this option would also require additional daily expenses as well.

The Medal final is indoors, right? So why would weather be an issue?

[Release First]

At the equitation task force meeting at USHJA convention these were (roughly)
the #s that were given:

2007 #qualified-362 # entered-311 # competed-292
2008 #qualified-317 # entered-292 # competed-272


Somebody should have questioned these figures because they are simply wrong. I would GUESS that there were at least 45 in California alone that qualified and did not compete. The cost is simply prohibitive for the average rider. The idea that all but 45 riders in the entire country can manage to compete at the finals is unbelievable.

[M. O'Connor]

I think that if things are left alone, the economy will pare down the field.

Demographics will shift and lots of kids are just not going to be out there, qualifying. I had a big eq kid on LI in the mid/late 90's, and we had it to do to get a class filled then.

My theory is that a group of would-be riders simply never got taken to the barn to learn during the late 80's/early 90's recession.

This will have to be worse, and if the problem now is how to accomodate so MANY riders, just wait. I would be very surprised to see it last.

[gg4918]

My whole point is that judges should recognize when a rider copes with a spooking horse properly and still gets the job done. THATS real riding.
And like I said, you can do everything possible to try to keep the horse's mind on business but again, its a matter of weight and strength. Its 1,400lbs vs. 135lbs. Whos going to win? If the horse wants to spook, its going to spook. Its up to the rider to deal with it accordingly and up to the judge to recognize a competent rider.

[Janet]

And like I said, you can do everything possible to try to keep the horse's mind on business but again, its a matter of weight and strength. Its 1,400lbs vs. 135lbs. Whos going to win? No it isn't.
If it were a matter of weight and strength, we wouldn't be able to train horses to do anything.

Suggest you read Bill Steinkraus's book for his take on the role of strength.

[dags]

A beginner rider fixes a problem after it has happened.
An intermediate rider fixes a problem while it has happening.
The advanced rider prevents the problem from ever occuring.

This is what they mean, and there is good weight to it. Ideally, you should have the horse so raptured with focus on their job that they won't even notice the flapping flamingo in the liverpool, and will of course jump it without question.

Keeping horses from spooking is not my point. A spooker is a spooker, and a peeker is a peeker- you are going to have to ride the pants of these horses every time. But a lot of horses simply relax their second trip in the ring, their second trip over the fences. But that first trip? You might as well be sitting on an entirely different beast than you've been practicing on all year.



But, we are wildly digressing from the point.

[findeight]

The Medal final is indoors, right? So why would weather be an issue?

Well, have not been to this show but the stalls are usually outside and some type of walk over in whatever weather or day/night is involved. Inside or not, one of those winter cold fronts drops the thermometer 40 degrees in 12 hours and some who go early are not going to have the same challenge as those that go later. Horses are sensitive to the pressure change wherever they are anyway and it can get some of them "lit up" pretty good.

Not sure the argument of different conditions on different days is valid as they can be different the same day in a class that goes on this many hours.

dags, thanks for the quote about the advanced rider fixing it BEFORE it happens. Guess that is what I was trying to say earlier. one thing to react to the spook, another to react before it and block it.

[luvs2ridewbs]

I would hesitate to compare the equitation to other jumping disciplines that go in without a warm up. If you are an eventer or a jumper rider, you never get a warm up but then again, you never get penalized for freshness, spooks and the like. I think that the quality of rounds will degrade if they get rid of the warm up and I think the likelyhood of drugging and over lunging to manufacture a perfect round will increase.

[MHM]

Well, have not been to this show but the stalls are usually outside and some type of walk over in whatever weather or day/night is involved.

Just FYI- Everything at Harrisburg is inside now. Stalls, giant schooling ring, show ring, walkways, wash stalls, everything. It used to have an outdoor schooling ring, but now the whole complex is enclosed.

Not to say the horses wouldn't notice a 40 degree drop in temperature, but rain or wind is not an issue.

[findeight]

One other thing....these shows frequently do not have any "Hunter warm up" rounds. Only your division rounds, you may get to do 2 or 3 but they all count and you need to pin well in all for any shot at a tri color.

I'm thinkin the economy will lower the numbers. We will know after we see how WEF goes.

But think it may be time to look at those qualifier courses...seen a few I could do at my age on my old horse and that is not preparing kids for a trip to the Finals.

[gg4918]

My points simply have to do with horses that are spookers by nature. my 18 yr old big eq horse is going to look at things his first time in the ring. Regardless of whos on him. We've had VBNR on him and he still does the same thing. Im just saying that once a horse gets it into his mind to do something, hes going to do it. Thats all. Thats why those warmup rounds count, they let us bring out the best for the 2nd round. I could do a jumper class fine first time, a hunter class is the same. But when its big eq finals I want to have that edge that will allow me to do my best. I'm fighting for all those kids that are at the top of their game and need that round so that they can play their A game when the time comes.

[justathought]

I think that just assuming the numbers will be down because the economy is soft is ignoring the problem.... either there should be fewer in the medal finals as a matter of policy or it does not matter. The economy varies all the time, and now it is bad, but it will rebound... a problem delayed is not a problem solved it is simply a problem put off until later. The poor economy may be the best time to look at potential solutions

[dags]

Thanks findeight, wish I could remember where I first heard it.


I have to agree though, the economy might give us lower numbers for the next two years, but America isn't sinking. The people that want to live well will again find a way to do so, and probably bring our economy back in the process. It's a band-aid.

Additionally, to use that argument pretty much sums up that all it takes to get to finals is money. Should we allow the economy to weed out the class, or the talent?

[katie16]

The Medal final is indoors, right? So why would weather be an issue?

Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of pre-show preparations (rides, lunges, etc.) and just general atmosphere of the day.