PSI Auction

[password]

Anybody have any news?

[Cartier]

No news, and we're dying to know what happened. So is this person http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=180639

[password]

Thanks Cartier. Maybe if we can keep this thread bumped up, our German friends might notice and take pity on us? ;)

[Cartier]

I think they're asleep... :lol: I emailed one friend in Germany earlier today, she sent me a link, but it didn't work. She couldn't get it to work and neither could I. :) As I said in the other post, we want to know about Laetare, Stine and St. Emilion and the jumping stallions Escudeur, Nintender and Baranus. Who are you looking at?

[password]

Not one horse in particular, just trying to get a sense of how the prices are holding up. Frankly, I've been pleasantly surprised at how good the prices have been at the previous auctions lately considering all the turmoil in the financial markets. Of course, it interfered with me being able to "steal" a few though, LOL! ;)

[dani0303]

I've been drooling over Baranus. Whoever gets him is lucky!

[Cartier]

I called Christoph... he said to email them and they'd send results... but we only asked about the six above and if any of them were coming to the USA. Christoph was not sure, but off the top of his head, he did not think Laetare was sold to the USA. I wll let you know what we find out.

We'd like to get over there this spring to see Diarado and a few of the newer boys.

[Cartier]

Here is what I got from PSI... most of the horses we liked (which I highlighted in red) went for a little over 500.000,00 € and the youngsters went for over 100.000,00 €

Guess we've good taste! :lol: I don't know where they were sold to, but we'd love to follow Laetare and Stine in the years to come.


XXIX. PERFORMANCE SALES INTERNATIONAL

14. Dezember 2008
Kopf Nr. Name
1. 27. Kannarino 120.000,00 €
2. 6. Laetare 520.000,00 €
3. 35. Cesanne 300.000,00 €
4. 24. St. Emilion 550.000,00 €
5. 50. Lawito 550.000,00 €
6. 4. Alando Palais 75.000,00 €
7. 43. Coco Mademoiselle 500.000,00 €
8. 1. Forum III 200.000,00 €
9. 29. Escudeur 290.000,00 €
10. 12. Doletto 550.000,00 €
11. 38. Contifex 450.000,00 €
12. 7. Ayers Rock 250.000,00 €
13. 32. Baloubetta 350.000,00 €
14. 3. Amicelli Gold 185.000,00 €
15. 51. Balyon 183.000,00 €
16. 5. Wyllow 380.000,00 €
17. 36. Converter II 200.000,00 €
18. 8. Florentiner 260.000,00 €
19. 41. Centonella 260.000,00 €
20. 9. Amarone 45.000,00 €
21. 34. Cento`s Landfürst 143.000,00 €
22. 26. Remix 130.000,00 €
23. 30. Calarena 220.000,00 €
24. 10. Lumberjack 160.000,00 €
25. 45. Landgrale 90.000,00 €
26. 25. Kevin B. 65.000,00 €
27. 44. Easy Boy 120.000,00 €
28. 11. Special Agent 90.000,00 €
29. 33. Catbalou 260.000,00 €
30. 16. Antinori 60.000,00 €
31. 46. Cortez 190.000,00 €
32. 14. Zafiro 90.000,00 €
33. 31. Cool Boy 140.000,00 €
34. 15. Rocky Mountain 75.000,00 €
35. 52. Command 65.000,00 €
36. 13. Sunny Days 40.000,00 €
37. 40. Urgent 215.000,00 €
38. 17. Lex Lennard 200.000,00 €
39. 28. Baranus 120.000,00 €
40. 20. Barnaby 250.000,00 €
41. 48. Avargo 135.000,00 €
42. 18. Donnelly 95.000,00 €
43. 37. Contigo 444.000,00 €
44. 19. Lollipop 240.000,00 €
45. 49. Within Temptation 150.000,00 €
46. 21. Blickpunkt 220.000,00 €
47. 42. Nintender 500.000,00 €
48. 22. Stine 135.000,00 €
49. 39. Couleur Lamour 120.000,00 €
50. 23. Sin City 260.000,00 €
51. 47. Polasko 120.000,00 €


Gesamterlös 11.360.000,00 €
Gesamterlös Springpferde 6.235.000,00 €
Gesamterlös Dressurpferde 5.125.000,00 €
Durchschnittspreis Springpferde 239.807,69 €
Durchschnittspreis Dressurpferde 205.000,00 €

[Walnut Farm]

Not german, but......

Andreas Helgestrand bought Laetare and t over 500K Euros

Average price 205,000Euros.....

Posted same time, and he only bought one

[Cartier]

Not german, but......

Andreas Helgestrand bought Laetare and the Sandro Hit son for over 500K Euros each.

Average price 205,000Euros.....
The Sandro Hit son would be St. Emilion he was very nice, and was Sir Donnerhall's daughter Stien.... very impressive.

[password]

Thanks Cartier!

[Cartier]

Not german, but......

Andreas Helgestrand bought Laetare and the Sandro Hit son for over 500K Euros each.

Average price 205,000Euros.....
PSI says that Laetare sold to Denmark, St. Emilion to Germany and Stine to Austria.

[canyonoak]

well, my favorite was and remains Doletto (# 12 dressage)...but 500,000 anythings greater than pennies is too rich for my blood, LOL.

Nevertheless, I went back again and again to look, and he just stands out. wow.

Anyone know who was the lucky bidder?

[Cartier]

$500,000 € for a horse is so far out of our league, I can’t even see that league from where we’re standing. Don’t get me wrong, I love that the PSI auction did well, I love that PSI works so diligently to create and nurture a vibrant lucrative market for Warmbloods. There is no way in this country that we can duplicate what they do, nor can we duplicate the selection they have. We simply don’t breed the numbers, we don’t have the riders, the trainers, the venues or the culture that celebrates equine sports the way they do. We see PSI as a tremendous resource for us, even if we don’t always use their stallions or the stallions they represent. But I sometimes wonder if these high price auction sales don’t add to our problems over here, because they fuel unrealistic expectations. When we sell a horse here at a modest profit we feel like a failure compared to the $500,000 € sales.

We were talking the other day about the state of the Warmblood market in this country… and the mistakes that have been made over the past 20 years. There are so many hucksters in this business, all acting out of self-interest, they’ve made the market place toxic. But even without the hucksters, the original premise was flawed. We had people who were selling foals for $20K and broodmares for $30K - $50K. I know of people who were getting second mortgages to buy foals and broodmares. It’s crazy, but people were encouraged to believe that they could expect huge $$ returns, with all sorts of zeros at the end, sort of like a pyramid selling scam. Truth is that no one could break even at those prices. As an example, let’s say you bought a broodmare for $30K. To be priced that way, she’d have to already have produced something, so chances are she would be about eight. So, the new owner/breeder wants to breed her with good quality semen (that will command a high price for the foal). If all goes well, care of the mare, semen and the vet bills to inseminate will run about $7K per breeding, then there are the vet bills associated with the foaling and presenting the foal to a registry. That will be about another $1K. SO a breeder is about $8K into a foal before they go to market it. There are other costs, including advertising, but let’s say the breeder gets lucky and sells the foal fast, for $10K. That’s about a $2K profit. That’s IF all goes well. So, 15 foals later the breeder will have made back the cost of the broodmare. At that point the breeder would almost be breaking even, but there is still the cost of maintaining the mare and time and labor.

But reality is, we’re dealing with living creatures and things don’t go according to plan. First you run into a vet who only wants to come to the farm MWF… so it takes three to four cycles to get the mare in foal, or maybe you find that the mare is tricky to get in foal (more vet bills) and then you discover the semen doesn’t work well so you need to order more semen… and the foal has a problem at birth… and the “great” breeding only produces a marginally nice foal… and the mare gets sick… and the truth is, you almost never recoup the $30K… I’m not sure how long the IRS would allow the breeder to continue with a business plan that lost money every year.

IF the leaders in this country had been interested in building a warmblood breeding industry here in the USA, among other things them might have said from the very beginning, we need to be realistic, we need to create a system where we have quality affordable mares (around $10K) , and quality affordable foals (around $5K). We need a system where the breeder could make a bit of a profit and the people buying the foal could make a bit of a profit. No one would get rich, but no one would loose their shirt.. we could build an industry… and along the way we may just produce our own versions of Diarado, His Highness, Hotline, Sir Donnerhall, Laetare, St. Emilion or whatever floats your boat.

As it is now, after more than 20 years of this, many breeders can’t make a profit… and we haven’t built a cohesive industry, we don't have great American based mare liines and we have no version of C, W, D or R lines. We’re as fragmented as we were 20 years ago.

[equusaround]

At least in CA with hay at $21/bale and Equine Junior at $21.99/50# you can't expect anyone to breed a quality foal and sell it for $5,000. I paid $4,700 for my Sandro Hit semen in 2005 (3 doses) and got a lovely filly...I would sell her for $5,000, why????? His semen is now advertised for $2,300/dose (down from $2,500/dose last year)...With vet bills, feeding the mare for a year, shoes, supplments, foaling out costs and vet bills for the foal - no way can you sell one for $5,000 and make a profit. Then there is registration and foal inspections, gas, handlers, halters, etc.

Even if you take the stud fee out of the equation (I have my own stallion) after the vet charges for collection and extension of the semen, insemination of the mare, I'm into the prospective foal over $1,500 and that assumes the mare takes on the first insemination, then there is Regumate, ultrasounds, vaccinations, etc., feed and I still can't sell a foal for $5,000 and make a profit. Oh yes, add horse blankets, bedding ($7.95/bale) and labor....People who want a $5,000 foal should try finding their own quality mare, picking the correct stallion and breeding - then they might "get it". Won't happen, no way, no how.

European breeding is a little different than that in the USA. They breed way more quantity, don't raise them with as much attention (if their legs, hooves become crooked etc., they reject them) and (seriously) eat the rejects. The USA approach to breeding is more selective and we lavish much more attention on our foals. They don't have USDF type breed shows in Europe - their foals go to their inspections and then stay on pasture (or not) until they are ready to be started under saddle. Foals are often kept in large group barns that are cleaned out once a season and fresh straw is thrown in when it gets too mucky. Would offend our sensibility (and our neighbors would complain). They also don't routinely worm (note how many imported horses need serious worming attention and are prone to colic and/or tend to be thrushy). All those things cost money and take time.

Additionally, although the foals may cost less in Europe (but not the "best" ones) you then have to pay a lot of money to import them. Breeders in the USA are now producing foals that are of the same quality (and maybe better) than those in Europe - but we can't do it for $5,000!

My Weltmeyer colt out of my homegrown Wanroij mare (who also cost more than $5,000 to make):
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff171/teamgauguin/IMG_1457.jpg

Colts by my stallion who cost me more than $5,000 to get on the ground:
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff171/teamgauguin/IMG_1444.jpg

Stallion who also cost more than $5,000 in semen and vet bills to produce (not including mare costs/feeding, etc.):
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff171/teamgauguin/Ducfacewithribbonbrightened.jpg

[Cartier]

You make some good points... and believe me, I know the cost of Sandro Hit semen, and the cost of getting mares in foal. We’ve imported Sandro Hit semen directly from Schockemöhle in 2004, got Sandro D, http://logresfarm.com/Sandro%20D.htm Bernie/Talloaks got a few foals and so did another of our partners. I know the costs… and I know the cost of getting a year or two of good training on a horse… we’ve done it. Training (and a few shows) adds so much to a breeder's costs you can not come out ahead on a sale.

No question there are some stallions who’s foals might command more… but the truth is, whether in Germany or here, irrespective of the cost of production, not all Sandro Hit foals are worth more than $ $6K to 10K and not all Sandro Hit offspring are worth huge monies.

[Edgar]

I think we have a lot to improve on but progress is being made for sure and quality is being bred more commonly:

As it is now, after more than 20 years of this, many breeders can’t make a profit…
That goes for dog breeders, pig breeders and horse breeders here and in Europe in the last 20. Some do well but many don't. What we do not have is the history and the 3rd generation farm that also breeds horses and we likely never will in the US.

and we haven’t built a cohesive industry, Maybe not as cohesive as we all like but several individual registries are growing stronger and providing better services and information and breeders have them as options, 20 years ago they were just trying to figure out how to register horses print their papers and how to pay for it.

we don't have great American based mare liines Not unless you breed Quarterhorses, Morgans, TWalkers or TB's etc., it does not have to do with time, just choice and that is not our choice

and we have no version of C, W, D or R lines. We have those lines in abundance, what is our version of them suposed to be like?


We’re as fragmented as we were 20 years ago. Really??? :) maybe you mean small scale compared to Europe.

The same big physical distances in the US we cannot change between individual breeders but just look at the amazing power of bringing us together on the internet and the ability to share information to learn from each other, the resources provided by national horse organizations for breeders and trainers. I see a lot more connections made now and much quicker, easier and cheaper than 20 years ago, no doubt. With a little creativity it is amazing what some are doing...and what all is yet to come...

[SArider]

Hi,

Thanks for the info on the auction. I was surpsized to see how high the prices were. I personally was a bit disappointed in the quality of the stock on offer, and was wondering if they perhaps with-held some real "top stock" in light of the financial crisis. Am I alone in thinking that perhaps some of the horses could do with some more elasticity? Comparing the prices and the stock offered I cant help but think that buying locally bred (In South Africa) will get you much better value of your money.

Perhaps the prestige of buying at the PSI Auction adds a couple of hundred thousand euro to the price?

500,000 Euro is some R7,5 Million (SA Rand) That certainly will buy you any top horse in South Africa. We have some fabulous breeders (breeding with Weltmeyer, Sandro Hit etc) who are producing excellent stock which in my opinion is a better value for money buy than many at the PSI Auction.

Perhaps its time we all shop around, visit the small breeders, visit the smaller countries (like South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, Belgium) and look at what your money buys.

I think the buyers will be quite surprized how far their money will stretch and the quality of stock on offer..

[Cartier]

I think we have a lot to improve on but progress is being made for sure and quality is being bred more commonly:

As it is now, after more than 20 years of this, many breeders can’t make a profit…
That goes for dog breeders, pig breeders and horse breeders here and in Europe in the last 20. Some do well but many don't. What we do not have is the history and the 3rd generation farm that also breeds horses and we likely never will in the US.

and we haven’t built a cohesive industry, Maybe not as cohesive as we all like but several individual registries are growing stronger and providing better services and information and breeders have them as options, 20 years ago they were just trying to figure out how to register horses print their papers and how to pay for it.

we don't have great American based mare liines Not unless you breed Quarterhorses, Morgans, TWalkers or TB's etc., it does not have to do with time, just choice and that is not our choice

and we have no version of C, W, D or R lines. We have those lines in abundance, what is our version of them suposed to be like?


We’re as fragmented as we were 20 years ago. Really??? :) maybe you mean small scale compared to Europe.

The same big physical distances in the US we cannot change between individual breeders but just look at the amazing power of bringing us together on the internet and the ability to share information to learn from each other, the resources provided by national horse organizations for breeders and trainers. I see a lot more connections made now and much quicker, easier and cheaper than 20 years ago, no doubt. With a little creativity it is amazing what some are doing...and what all is yet to come...
Part of our disagreement is that we’re talking apples and oranges here, so let me take a step back. When I speak of “breeders” I am not referring to an individual who thinks they can breed - in one or two breedings - the horse of their dreams, because they think they own the “perfect mare.” Statistically that just doesn’t happen. Even the greatest competition mares in the history of history have not been the best producers. If you want the perfect horse, buy it from what you see on the ground. The chance of you producing perfection (regardless of the sire and dam), especially if you have just one or two foals, is really very small. That is not to say that you won’t love and be satisfied with what you produce, you will no doubt be emotionally connected to your investment of time, love and money, but statistically, it would be better to buy what you want then to try to breed it.

When I speak of a “breeder” I am referring to individuals who expect to produce a foal crop each year of roughly half a dozen animals (maybe more)… for a decade or so, that they want to sell. I do not think it is realistic to expect that there is the magic buyer for each foal a breeder produces, who will see that foal as “the life-time perfect horse” which they will pay $15K for. I think it is more realistic for a “breeder” to produce quality at an affordable price so the buyer can purchase and train the animal and still make a profit at their end. (IMO, Ashemont was a model of this type of breeder)

I wish we had in this country a view of developing a solid mare base, much like the Holsteiner Verband, where we were known to produce a consistent phenotype and consistent quality, with a few SUPERSTARS along the way. For sure, one or two foals might be exceptional and worth more money, but if we also produced good solid consistent quality at a affordable prices, it would be good for the market overall.

Look are the warmblood sales forums. Prices are all over the place, quality is all over the place… bloodlines and breeding combinations are all over the place.

Btw, can’t comment about pig breeders, but I have some experience with dog breeders. If you have good bloodlines, understand phenotype and genotype, understand the political bs of the show ring/competition ring, make good choices and market your product well, you will not loose money. There is a strong world-wide market at the high end, but you have to have the bloodlines and you have to walk the walk, every day with every animal you produce… it is a huge commitment. You have to know the difference between the $2K puppy and the $15K puppy, and they may have identical breeding, which gets back to, “Not every offspring of superstars is a superstar.” And, you benefit from the reputation that at every price point, with every sale, you understand what you have and are providing a quality product.

[Cartier]

Hi,

Thanks for the info on the auction. I was surpsized to see how high the prices were. I personally was a bit disappointed in the quality of the stock on offer, and was wondering if they perhaps with-held some real "top stock" in light of the financial crisis. Am I alone in thinking that perhaps some of the horses could do with some more elasticity? Comparing the prices and the stock offered I cant help but think that buying locally bred (In South Africa) will get you much better value of your money.

Perhaps the prestige of buying at the PSI Auction adds a couple of hundred thousand euro to the price?

500,000 Euro is some R7,5 Million (SA Rand) That certainly will buy you any top horse in South Africa. We have some fabulous breeders (breeding with Weltmeyer, Sandro Hit etc) who are producing excellent stock which in my opinion is a better value for money buy than many at the PSI Auction.

Perhaps its time we all shop around, visit the small breeders, visit the smaller countries (like South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, Belgium) and look at what your money buys.

I think the buyers will be quite surprized how far their money will stretch and the quality of stock on offer..

Would love to see more of your market. Do you have some links for us? :)

About PSI… not experts by any means, but we were impressed with the collection, with the presentation of each horse… with the level of training and /or performance, with the DVD, the catalogue, the presentation and the whole package. PSI markets their horses on velvet, they make the process appealing at every level. I can’t think of another auction anywhere in the world that gets higher prices for warmbloods. If PSI gets good prices year after year after year, they are doing lots of things right. People with $750,000 and up to spend on a dressage horse probably know the value of their money and know the track record of PSI auction horses. I would be surprised if year after year after year they come to PSI, to buy horses they could buy cheaper elsewhere.

[canyonoak]

Does the amount of money shown for horses at PSI/Verden Elite/etc actually REALLY change hands?

I find it a bit difficult to accept.

Just wondering.

If I pay 500,000 euros for a 3-4 year old...how do I make money down the road?

Win an equestrian medal?

Sell the horse --presuming the horse stays rideable/sound/etc?

Breeding fees? (maybe in Europe, over a lifetime)...

I thought the concept was to pick out the magic early enough that the actual buying price is fairly modest and then make something of said creature...?

What can one make of 500,000 euros? Or 300,000 euros?

Is this to make these auctions more like,say, Keenland TBs in the U.S.? More of a business commitment?

[Cartier]

I have no idea if the money really changes hands. PSI owns all the horses in the auction, so it is not a question of the owner openly bidding against other bidders.. but who knows? Like you, I do not see how on earth you would buy a $700,000 horse for resale… but I am not in the league. I suspect that the buyers are valuing competition potential, not resale… but I do not know. This sale is different than say, buying a young stallion (like Doug Leatherdale purchased His Highness and then reportedly sold enough breedings the first year alone to roughly equal the purchase price...), where you might be buying an investment.

Lewitz alone has 700 mares… they have horses for sale at every age and every step of the way, from young horses, to those just starting under saddle, to proven superstars in sport, so that they have something in a buyer’s price range no matter what one is looking for. How does any American breeder compete with that?

One reason we chose a small obscure piece of the market is that we felt there is simply no way a breeder could compete with an operation like Lewitz (and it is just one breeder in Germany). If I have hundreds (even thousands) of foals to chose from each year, the “best of the best” is gonna be pretty darn fantastic. I think that is what Leatare’s auction price reflects (btw, he was purchased as a foal and raised at Lewitz). He is the superstar we'd all like to produce.

One problem in this country is that even if we produced a Laetare (and we may have many times over the years), how would anyone know? We don't have the venues to identify one and to show it off for the world to see. For the most part only the big farms with deep pocketed owners like ISF and Hilltop do well at Devon. They can easily afford the best of the best to show off what they produce... it's difficult for an average breeder to make much headway year after year. And breeders in other parts of this country have no version of Devon close by to show off their superstars.

[Edgar]

good point Cartier about the mares, every succesfull breeders needs mares with debt (good marelines) and we see too much turnover, one time breeders no line developing in the majority of breedings in the USA.

This comment you made is interresting to me:
I have some experience with dog breeders. If you have good bloodlines, understand phenotype and genotype, understand the political bs of the show ring/competition ring, make good choices and market your product well, you will not loose money. There is a strong world-wide market at the high end, but you have to have the bloodlines and you have to walk the walk, every day with every animal you produce… it is a huge commitment. You have to know the difference between the $2K puppy and the $15K puppy, and they may have identical breeding, which gets back to, “Not every offspring of superstars is a superstar.” And, you benefit from the reputation that at every price point, with every sale, you understand what you have and are providing a quality product.
Most breeders are not that capable and it is no different with horses. It is like the saying "don't play another man's game" especially if profit is intended and that is what a lot of breeders are doing.

[Tiki]

[QUOTE]What can one make of 500,000 euros? Or 300,000 euros?/QUOTE]

A really good reputation and a bunch of top class ribbons like from the World Breeding Championships and the BuCha and then on to GP.

[Cartier]

This comment you made is interresting to me:
I have some experience with dog breeders. If you have good bloodlines, understand phenotype and genotype, understand the political bs of the show ring/competition ring, make good choices and market your product well, you will not loose money. There is a strong world-wide market at the high end, but you have to have the bloodlines and you have to walk the walk, every day with every animal you produce… it is a huge commitment. You have to know the difference between the $2K puppy and the $15K puppy, and they may have identical breeding, which gets back to, “Not every offspring of superstars is a superstar.” And, you benefit from the reputation that at every price point, with every sale, you understand what you have and are providing a quality product.
Most breeders are not that capable and it is no different with horses. It is like the saying "don't play another man's game" especially if profit is intended and that is what a lot of breeders are doing.

I think it gets back to “doing your homework” and truly understanding what you have and what direction you want to go. Breeding quality doesn’t happen over night… a breeder will have some successes and some less-than-what-was-hoped for. Either way the breeder needs to respond and go forward. A sense of humor, a passion for what you're doing and an outside source of income can be a huge plus at times :lol: … and experience helps. One of my favorite sayings is, “It takes years of experience to have years of experience.”

[rocksolid]

I have heard from two american buyers that the prices at the PSI auction are not always legitimate. I have never attended, so I can not say this is true. Are the horse actually selling? Are they pre-sold? Who knows? I do like looking at the auction catalog every year though!

[FMulder]

Cartiers point about fragmentation is the best made. The same exists in the UK and the situation will never ever change in either country. That's not a critcism, just a statement of fact that is not designed to offend.

When you compare yourselves against the systems in place in Europe, you'll understand how very difficult it's ever going to be to compete in any form, except for the odd freak/lucky happening (they do happen). The four main breeding countries of Europe either have studbooks/national studs which control just about everything which takes place in the country or region.

As with any state based or locally organised (normally founded upon an originally state created system) method, the "locals" adhere (that's about the need to belong, but more imprtantly about commercialising their horses). Even the French who love to fight with each other all the time, still manage to exist within a cohesive and organised system. The Germans have a regional approach and are well glued together in their offering. The Dutch and Belgians are the most commercially aware nations in the world, in fact it's almost genetic rather than just cultural (Amsterdam created the first stock exchange). And all of these countries know how to sell horses, some better than others, but all are "selling" countries.

The biggest single problem for both the USA and UK, is that neither government is ever going to be interested in believing that horses are anything other than pets (except for tb's of course). Added to that is the attitude of the breeders of both countries, who still believe that horses are pets. Whilst those two parties continue with the same view point, nothing will change.

If I were in charge, I'd regionalise everything to do with horses and create area studbooks, to which everybody must adhere. Before any of you jump down my throat, remember that I live in a fundementaly communist country (France) where you toe the line or can expect a world of trouble.

The second problem, is that neither the Brits or the Americans ever like to be "told what to do", and strongly believe in the free market. Whilst the free market is laudable in many ways, when you look at how these amazing studbooks/systems were created, they didn't really apply free market priciples. It was more about "do what you're told" and some of them still are.

To give you the classic example (and I don't not want to cause an arguement), look at AHHA. There you have breeders wanting to breeder under the banner of Holstein, but within that group you have two schools of thought. One group wants to totally stick to the decades old and well proven Holstein principles of breeding, whilst the other wants to take a more open stud book approach. The two can't really exist in a meaningful way, because on method IS Holsteiner and the other is NOT. Again, before I get slated, I'm commenting on free market attitudes and approach, not the internal fights at AHHA.

I've said it hundreds of times, that if I wanted to create an oil company I copy the BP or any other successful business. Thus if you want to create superb sport horses, just copy what the best are doing. You might not acheive it but you'll at least get close. I saw it stated recently "I only have one lifetime", never a truer word spoken.

To get back to the thread, PS had taken his world famous name (and don't forget that he was actually a household name, not just within the horse community) and has worked it in a way that would put most global corporation's marketing and promotions departments to shame. He is a genius, whether you approve of his methods or not. If you ever go to Mühlen, you'll see that virtually every business is owned by him (that's not totally true, but it was a comment from my girlfriend when we were there a couple of weeks ago). He has made a huge fortune from an industry which is famous for being difficult (or impossible) to make a profit in. He still has time to play cards with his three buddies at luchtime, which was quite cool to see.

[Cartier]

I agree with many of your observations. About Schockemöhle, not that he needs defending, but I get tired of the criticism. We’ve probably all heard stories at one time or another… we toss them off with a grain of salt. If I had a nickel for every used-car-salesman, pyramid-scammer, hiding-under-the-IRS’-radar carnival huckster we’ve run across in horses we’d be rich. Whatever Schockemöhle may have done pales in comparison to things like a farm that sold a mare with laryngeal hemiplegia as a riding horse (when the vets had purportedly said the mare should never be ridden because she could collapse). The farm was sued, and in response they had some registry personal call the plaintiff to threaten them. There are farms that fail to disclose that stallions are producing OCD; farms that fail to disclose their stallions have poor semen or have things like a spinal compressions, that may or may not be hereditary. We know of one “expert” who doesn’t bother filing with the IRS, hasn’t for years and years. There are all sorts of behind the scenes owners pimping their horses to unsuspected buyers… all sorts of stuff… it goes on and on and on... enough to make you want to walk away. Don’t even get me started on trainers. Some, like Elly Schobel are superb… absolutely exemplary… but we’ve had others along the way years ago who should be delivering pizza for Pizza Hut, rather than ever going near a horse.

Without question Schockemöhle gets it right more often than any other entity in Warmbloods today. He’s had the International competition career, he has a superb eye for a horse, excellent trainers, great riders and unparalleled presentation. What’s to criticize? His critics can pick apart what ever minutia they like, but show me anyone who even remotely approaches the overall package… year after year after year. His success in not just bells and whistles… it’s real.. and you can follow it … year after year after year.

There is a saying I like, “A rising tide floats all boats.” Schockemöhle is great for the warmblood market because he presents the industry on velvet, with champagne. He creates a desire, he sets the bar high for others to follow. Rather than being critical, we might actually use him as a model and try to duplicate his success… or better it.

[Kareen]

And the point of all that is?

[DownYonder]

Whatever Schockemöhle may have done pales in comparison to things like a farm that sold a mare with laryngeal hemiplegia as a riding horse (when the vets had purportedly said the mare should never be ridden because she could collapse). The farm was sued, and in response they had some registry personal call the plaintiff to threaten them.

And you don't think PS hasn't ever done something like that? Just because YOU haven't heard about their - ahem - slick deals, doesn't mean they don't do it. ;)

[au_panda]

Could somebody do some translating for me? What is PSI? Who buys these horses for these astronomical amounts of money? What is the expected future of these horses?

I find it incredible that almost 12 million Euros changed hands in the current state of the world's economic crisis.

[andy.smaga]

I find it incredible that almost 12 million Euros changed hands in the current state of the world's economic crisis.

Did you looked at what TB auctions are bringing these days ? :eek:

Not everybody buys horses for a profit, fortunately.


@ Zangersheide, difficult for me to believe you live in France, when I read that you say that France is similar to a communist country :lol:
When the communist party has almost disappeared and the socialist party is exploding...

[not again]

Totally off topic in one sense and spot-on in another. I friend of mine bought a very expensive warmblood mare about this time of year, a stallion and several other young horses to set a breeding/competition business using the hyped registry of the time, from the big name importer at the time. When said mare didn't come in to heat, they first thought it was the wintry weather. By April they had the vet out, and it turned out the mare had no ovaries. Was sold to them as a broodmare with a prepurchase. There is lots more to the story, but it just came to mind. Now back to your original discussion......

[Cartier]

Totally off topic in one sense and spot-on in another. I friend of mine bought a very expensive warmblood mare about this time of year, a stallion and several other young horses to set a breeding/competition business using the hyped registry of the time, from the big name importer at the time. When said mare didn't come in to heat, they first thought it was the wintry weather. By April they had the vet out, and it turned out the mare had no ovaries. Was sold to them as a broodmare with a prepurchase. There is lots more to the story, but it just came to mind. Now back to your original discussion......
eek!

[Kareen]

I don't think anybody here would argue that PS is an outstanding businessman and has profound knowledge (and influence) in the sport.
PSI stands for performance sales international and if you want to know how much of those millions actually change hands I would recommend tracking the PSI horses of the past and what became of them :) The FN yearbooks are quite a helpful tool for that matter and if you consider the 1400 breedings the man does each year his breeding success is a joke compared to the guys like Harli Seifert, Jürgen Hattebuhr or all the others who breed only a fraction but have a way higher successrate if you make show results in jumping your breeding standards.
If I stay in my own neighborhood Heinrich Henke (lived 15 minutes from me) still has 6 horses up and competing in the toplist of nationwide show jumpers, amogst them El Paso (mind you, he was a highlighted PSI horse one time). The man died years ago and never bred more than 8 mares per year in his lifetime.
Or if I keep the focus on my neighborhood try my granduncle Willy Heineking they breed about a dozen each year and most of these mares have been in the family for several generations back and have 5 into the top jumper list...
The few handful that ranks amongst the top 1000 in the country from PS and Gestüt Lewitz mostly are out of mares PS purchased a few years ago. Therefor while it still makes him the breeder on paper this is something completely different than what Harli Seifert and other breeders who play in the same league are doing don't you agree?

[andy.smaga]

Does the amount of money shown for horses at PSI/Verden Elite/etc actually REALLY change hands?

I find it a bit difficult to accept.

It seem that Euros did change hands:yes:
Check http://www.eurodressage.com/auctions/psi/2008/results.html

[Kareen]

Seems seems correct *LOL*
I urge you to keep track on this collection in the coming 3-4 yrs. I really hope we'll see a lot of them alive and showing with their new owners.

[andy.smaga]

I really hope we'll see a lot of them alive and showing with their new owners.
What do you mean by alive??? do you imply that most of them will die in 3 or 4 years ?
I must be missing something.

[Kareen]

No. Where did you take that from? Of course some will die. Any horse can die, at any age. But chances to not stay sound are higher in horses that have been worked excessively like many of these auction marketed youngsters do. And for some it's not even their first auction experience (e.g. Elvis last year, the poor thing was taken through an elite auction as a 3yo before, then worked his butt off during the season including the entire 4yo yahoo (Verden, Warendorf blabla).
Poetin died a very tragic death rather soon after her record-breaking sale at the PSI... This is not to say that auction horses aren't taken good care of. I am a frequent bidder at various auctions myself. I just think one should not take any marketing hype too seriously and look at the scenery for a bit longer than it takes to read a press release :)

[Tim Jennings]

Does anyone know how many of the horses sold?

We staffed two auctions for Paul here in the US in the early 80s. The first was held with the American Derby in Newport, RI. and was an amazing success. Even with that success, not all of the horses were sold. The second was held the following winter in Ocala and was not on the show grounds. The horses were of a lesser caliber that the Newport sale and there were many more RNAs, (Reserve Not Attained). The horses that didn't sell were placed with programs here to sell privately.

[SArider]

http://www.sawarmbloodhorses.com/studs.html

Links to South African Warmblood Breeders if Anyone is interested.

[Kareen]

No way to know the factual sales rate (as in number of horses sold outside the businesses) but it would be highly surprising if the sale rate was 100%. I didn't mean to destroy anyone's bubble the PSI auction is and will probably always remain a very special event that attracts a ton of people. I would just bear in mind that its main function is that of an advertising event I don't see it so much as a sales event.
To SArider thank you for providing the link. I was always wondering how breeders were organised in SA.