Sham's injury in '73 Belmont

[mortebella]

Ok, my memory is pretty shabby - but I've been having some conversations with people about the Sham/Secretariat rivalry and trying to explain my take on it (hey, I was 11 at the time, cut me a little slack :D) I also have done a search in this forum already, but couldn't turn anything up, specific to this.There is a book on Amazon that was fairly recently released, but -as WAS discussed on here - that book has some holes. I'm not into rushing out and buying it, based on the reviews. I'm really looking for some specific information. My memory is this - Sham DID fracture something in the Belmont, a sesmoid maybe, although I think it was not discovered for a couple of days, and when it was, it was never widely publicized. All the assessments of his race that day have always been, (it struck me like) oh, yeah, he was just a crap horse after all, and he finally puked. Well...NO!!

I was OUTRAGED at the time, and I remember all this pretty well. I had an uncle who worked at Delaware Park, and my career goal was to be a jockey, so I followed racing pretty closely. I had been burnt up that they raced Canonero in the third leg after he lost a significant portion of his foot to thrush; I never saw the Sports Illustrated thing that protested them racing him until I was an adult, but when I did, I realized I was pretty freakin' on the beam for having been 9 at the time. Anyway, all this comes up for me now because of all the footage that's on YouTube of the races - there's Sham running a hell of a race in the Derby and the Preakness AND in the Belmont until he just tanks. SO unlike the other races. I get this eerie forshadowing of Ruffian which I also watched on that track. And this new (crummy) book alludes to him almost losing his life. I'm fairly ill that when at last there was the chance to really rectify a lot of this, apparently that chance has been wasted so badly. So can somebody PLEASE tell me the particulars - WHAT exactly happened to Sham? I KNOW I'm not making this up. But I really think the fact that this was never widely reported goes a long way towards why the horse never established a better reputation. I'm not saying it was a concerted conspiracy to discredit him - you could've had a talking horse that laid golden eggs in those days and if its name wasn't Secretariat, nobody was going to give a damn. :lol:

[Blinkers On]

He wasn't retired after the Belmont. He was kept in training with the hope of running against Secretariat at Saratoga. in Mid July a hairline fracture was detected, and he was retired.
Sham mad the misfortune of having to run against Big Red in the TC.
In the Belmont from a tactical stand point even if Laffit had not shadowed Secretariat, when he went for the lead, the outcome would have been the same. Secretariat was never going to be denied on that day. He even changed his race style on his own. He went from stalker/closer to speed and find as many gears as he could ever need.
As impressive as Secretariat was, throughout the TC and his career, I think the Belmont defines him.. shows what an intense super freak he was.

[mortebella]

Yeah, I wikipedia-ed for it after I posted this. Sorry, duh. I'm not arguing he would've beaten Secretariat that day - I think S. had established in the D. & P. already he WAS the faster horse. I'm just saying it's QUITE conceivable Sham sustained the fracture THAT day, and it did affect his performance, and his subsequent reputation, even if they didn't have the presence of mind to x-ray for it until sometime later. I'm trying to firm up details, and chain of events here a little better. Thanks for your reply though :)

[Gestalt]

I don't know anything that can help you, I just wanted to say I have always loved Sham. In a different time period he could have been remembered as a great horse. Now he is forever compared to the Secretariat. No one can compare to Secretariat, he really was unique.

[Blinkers On]

Yeah, I wikipedia-ed for it after I posted this. Sorry, duh. I'm not arguing he would've beaten Secretariat that day - I think S. had established in the D. & P. already he WAS the faster horse. I'm just saying it's QUITE conceivable Sham sustained the fracture THAT day, and it did affect his performance, and his subsequent reputation, even if they didn't have the presence of mind to x-ray for it until sometime later. I'm trying to firm up details, and chain of events here a little better. Thanks for your reply though :)

I wasn't implying that you thought he would have beaten him. I just am too taken with the horse and a wee bit passionate about him...

[mortebella]

I don't know anything that can help you, I just wanted to say I have always loved Sham. In a different time period he could have been remembered as a great horse. Now he is forever compared to the Secretariat. No one can compare to Secretariat, he really was unique.

I really have always loved Sham too. He was a class act. Secretariat was certainly a gifted athlete but for me - and I'm sure I'm about to invite a big can o' whoop-ass to be opened upon my humble self - he never exemplified the TB work ethic and mystique. There were too many times when he came up short with no explanation- he knocked a tooth out on the starting gate? Please, that's just mud in the eye of every horse who ever ran on "three legs and a heart." Stuff like that just left a lingering suspicion for me that if it hadn't all been so easy for Secretariat, we wouldn't have seen from him the same kind of game performances we saw from Sham. What I see in Sham is the WILL to run, the WILL to get HIS head in front, that just brings tears to my eyes. And remember, he had beaten him. I believe he thought he could :) To me, these are the ones with the real wings.

[Florida Fan]

He wasn't retired after the Belmont. He was kept in training with the hope of running against Secretariat at Saratoga. in Mid July a hairline fracture was detected, and he was retired.
Sham mad the misfortune of having to run against Big Red in the TC.
In the Belmont from a tactical stand point even if Laffit had not shadowed Secretariat, when he went for the lead, the outcome would have been the same. Secretariat was never going to be denied on that day. He even changed his race style on his own. He went from stalker/closer to speed and find as many gears as he could ever need.
As impressive as Secretariat was, throughout the TC and his career, I think the Belmont defines him.. shows what an intense super freak he was.
I don't know how many of you had the priveledge of seeing Secretariat run in person, but I am a veteran trainer, not easily impressed but he brought chills watching him "switch gears" to as many as pleased him. I watched him in the Maryland Futurity as a 2 yo and he broke last on a sloppy track, looked each of his competitors in the eye, matched a few strides with each, then said "catch me if you can" and galloped away from the field.

[DLee]

Is this the case of Secretariat not having the peers to run with him and push him making him prove himself? Because I believe he still has some fastest times standing (correct me if I'm wrong). I think that pretty much disproves any case of he had it so 'easy'.

[summerhorse]

Secretariat was a freak. I do remember reading that for most if not all of his poor placings (except the first race) he had missed an important fast work before which apparently the big lug needed.

Poor Sham, he tried so hard. I do believe something happened in the Belmont, either he did fracture it then or just started a fracture that came out later. Without Secretariat I don't believe that would have happened as he wouldn't have had to run so hard. But it's all water under the bridge now!

[EventerAJ]

Obligatory Secretariat Belmont Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2c_ylcxgCaI)

Can't mention the big red name without linking that footage. :)

I've seen it a million times and it still gives me chills to hear "HE IS MOVING LIKE A TREMENDOUS MACHINE!!!"

[Blue Domino]

Sham wouldn't even place in the top 10 fastest TB's to run 1 1/2 miles on the Belmont track.

Secretariat's 2:24 flat time still stands. He's over two seconds faster than the 2nd and 3rd placed horses who've run the fastest Belmont times at that distance. Even the 2nd and 3rd fastest horses would have been several lengths behind Secretariat.

Sham was over 30 lengths behind. Not at all impressive. If he hurt himself running in the Belmont, he just wasn't Belmont material.

Secretariat was a monster, a machine. There had never been anything like him before, and there has never been anything like him since.

As a broodmare sire, he has left his mark on TB racing, his daughters have produced the #1 sires in the world.

I can't recall an offspring or grandget of Sham ever doing anything spectacular, and subscribed to Bloodhorse and TB Times for many many years.

[GreenMachine]

Secretariat was certainly a gifted athlete but for me - and I'm sure I'm about to invite a big can o' whoop-ass to be opened upon my humble self - he never exemplified the TB work ethic and mystique. There were too many times when he came up short with no explanation- he knocked a tooth out on the starting gate? Please, that's just mud in the eye of every horse who ever ran on "three legs and a heart."

Actually, it was Sham who had the "tooth knocked" excuse. He knocked out two of them in the starting gate of the Kentucky Derby. Is it a legitimate excuse now? ;)

[Glimmerglass]

Sham wouldn't even place in the top 10 fastest TB's to run 1 1/2 miles on the Belmont track.

I'm pretty sure that Sham was eased well before hitting the stretch as the field overtook him as the rounded the last turn of the backstretch. Something was wrong with him and seeing Laffit Pincay Jr. apply too much pressure in the 1 1/2 mi run was just not the best orders. As much as some may discredit Sham he was a talented horse and that impressive Santa Anita Derby wasn't a fluke nor was his run in Kentucky Derby.

The question asked far too often of other horses in other years: "Would [insert name here] have won the TC that year if it had not been for X horse?" Who knows. Empire Maker might have won the TC had it not been for Funny Cide, Flying Paster if there was no Bid, Alydar if not for Affirmed, etc.

Clearly the '73 Belmont was such a reduced field that year because Secretariat scared so many off. Sham easily would've dispatched the others to victory in Belmont too. Let's be real here - the likes of Pvt Smiles (the alias name of Marylou Whitney) wasn't exactly the cream of the crop.

Penny has openly said many times that she liked Sham and respect him. For that I think we should as well.

I myself think that Secretariat, while a great horse undoubtedly, has a Paul Bunyon-esq legend and myth about him that overshadows what the real horse accomplished and also failed at. We'll never know what would've happened had Spectacular Bid (http://articles.latimes.com/2001/oct/15/sports/sp-57521), Citation, Dr Fager or Kelso would've done against Secretariat. All ran with an insatiable internal drive mixed with physical ability the likes of which are found in such a precious few horses that it would be impossible to predict the outcome.

Comparing Sham to all that really isn't terribly fair.

[Kyzteke]

I don't know anything that can help you, I just wanted to say I have always loved Sham. In a different time period he could have been remembered as a great horse. Now he is forever compared to the Secretariat. No one can compare to Secretariat, he really was unique.

I was actually there at Belmont the day Secretariat won. I'd been walking hots for Frank Whitely (I use to walk Icecapade as a 2 yr. old) and we had a horse in the race just before the Belmont. Because our barn was just two down from Secretariat, I saw him alot -- what a horse!

He was in a class by himself, that's for sure.

But I liked Sham as well and I often think he could have won the Triple Crown that year if not for having the misfortune to be born in the same year as Big Red.

As I remember, the scuttlebutt on the backside was that Penny Tweedy was sort of ticked that they hadn't counted S's time in the Preakness as a record, and some folks were STILL staying Sham could beat him in a "fair" race (remember, in the KY Derby Sham banged his mouth on the starting gate & lost a tooth, and in the Preakness he'd been boxed in -- yet in both cases he didn't lose by that much).

So she told Turcotte "let him run...show people what he can really do."

And at the same time Sham's trainer told the jock "ok, this time you stay with that big red SOB...don't let him get away from you."

And that's what happened. If you look at the tape, it was sort of a match race in the beginning. Sham has a big heart -- HUGE -- but I really think it got broken that day. NO ONE could stay with Secretariat...recall they actually ran 1 1/2 miles with each 1/4 FASTER than the one before. He just kept going faster and faster and FASTER. Amazing.

I was standing right in front of the wire and the crowd was so thick you really couldn't see anything but the break (Belmont's a mile & 1/2 track) and then the finish....Secretariat out there all by his lonesome...then (it seemed like HOURS later) the rest of the field.

I think Sham finished dead last that day...too bad, he was a hell of a horse in his own right but Secretariat was....well, Secretariat. We will not see his quality again...at least, certainly not in my lifetime.

Still brings tears to my eyes when I watch that race....

[TBCollector]

Sham fractured a cannon bone in a workout after the Belmont and was retired.
He was one of the sweetest horses I've ever had the pleasure of being around. I have photos of my husband and I laying on him in his pasture at Spendthrift while he's taking a doze...every year around Derby time I would bring him some peppermints and bananas (his favorite). :D

[Blinkers On]

You who were here on the day and saw Secretariat run are all my hero!
I would be rendered speechless and that's tough to do!
I get choked up every time I see it and he inspires me every single day!
I don't know that he actually has peers other than the other super freaks of the sport and they are few and far between!

[Gestalt]

I was actually there at Belmont the day Secretariat won. I'd been walking hots for Frank Whitely (I use to walk Icecapade as a 2 yr. old) and we had a horse in the race just before the Belmont. Because our barn was just two down from Secretariat, I saw him alot -- what a horse!

He was in a class by himself, that's for sure.

But I liked Sham as well and I often think he could have won the Triple Crown that year if not for having the misfortune to be born in the same year as Big Red.

As I remember, the scuttlebutt on the backside was that Penny Tweedy was sort of ticked that they hadn't counted S's time in the Preakness as a record, and some folks were STILL staying Sham could beat him in a "fair" race (remember, in the KY Derby Sham banged his mouth on the starting gate & lost a tooth, and in the Preakness he'd been boxed in -- yet in both cases he didn't lose by that much).

So she told Turcotte "let him run...show people what he can really do."

And at the same time Sham's trainer told the jock "ok, this time you stay with that big red SOB...don't let him get away from you."

And that's what happened. If you look at the tape, it was sort of a match race in the beginning. Sham has a big heart -- HUGE -- but I really think it got broken that day. NO ONE could stay with Secretariat...recall they actually ran 1 1/2 miles with each 1/4 FASTER than the one before. He just kept going faster and faster and FASTER. Amazing.

I was standing right in front of the wire and the crowd was so thick you really couldn't see anything but the break (Belmont's a mile & 1/2 track) and then the finish....Secretariat out there all by his lonesome...then (it seemed like HOURS later) the rest of the field.

I think Sham finished dead last that day...too bad, he was a hell of a horse in his own right but Secretariat was....well, Secretariat. We will not see his quality again...at least, certainly not in my lifetime.

Still brings tears to my eyes when I watch that race....

I think that day at Belmont broke Sham's heart. The same happened to Riva Ridge. Please sate my curiosity, in a video of one of the races I saw Sham kicking at the grooms as they tried to wash him down after a race. He was actually cow-kicking at them. Is this a "normal" thing?


TBCollector, could you share a few of your Sham pix? :)

[Blinkers On]

I agree. A race like that beats the crap out of the psyche of the game. A sad reality of the mental part of the sport.

[Kyzteke]

I think that day at Belmont broke Sham's heart. The same happened to Riva Ridge. Please sate my curiosity, in a video of one of the races I saw Sham kicking at the grooms as they tried to wash him down after a race. He was actually cow-kicking at them. Is this a "normal" thing?


Yeah -- alot of them would do that....they didn't like the water dripping off their bellies & hind legs. Remember, many racehorses aren't exactly poster children for Old Dobbin the Therapy Horse. Alot of them can be real stinkers. They are wound pretty tight.

If they were cheap claimers, maybe the groom would whack 'em when they cowkicked.

Stakes winners -- maybe they might yell at 'em.

Horses like Sham? You just get out of the way....<g>

[Kyzteke]

I really have always loved Sham too. He was a class act. Secretariat was certainly a gifted athlete but for me - and I'm sure I'm about to invite a big can o' whoop-ass to be opened upon my humble self - he never exemplified the TB work ethic and mystique. There were too many times when he came up short with no explanation- he knocked a tooth out on the starting gate?
You've already been corrected on the tooth thing.

Since you obviously aren't that familiar with horse racing, go back and review some records.

Secretariat lost only 1 race, plus I think he was set down once for a jock disqualification.

He not only won the Triple Crown, he set track records in each of the three races (Yeah, I count the Preakness -- not his fault the "official" timers screwed up).

I always laugh when people compare Funny Cide, Smarty Jones, Barabaro, etc. to Secretariat...

And knowledgable racing experts who actually SAW the horse voted him 2nd (only to Man O'War) best race horse of the 20th Century. So I'm thinking he DID have a work ethic and "mystique."

[Glimmerglass]

Since you obviously aren't that familiar with horse racing, go back and review some records.

Secretariat lost only 1 race, plus I think he was set down once for a jock disqualification.

21 starts 16-3-1

Again I think people too often inflate 'the legend' beyond what it was.

By comparison, Citation at the end of his 3-yr season had a career of 29 starts 27-2-0. One of those 2nd places was under Calumet orders (at the age of 2) when racing against the filly Bewitch, his stablemate, who also set the track record. Calumet rules were such that if a 2 or more Calumet horse were in the same race then the horse in the lead in the final turn was not to be challenged. Calumet didn't see the value in wasting their horses against one another in some all-out duel. The other was against Saggy in the Chesapeake Trial Stakes at 3.

[mortebella]

21 starts 16-3-1

:lol::lol::lol:

I think the phrase is "hoist by your own petard," Kyzteke.

[mortebella]

These are the reports I was referring to...Secretariat's defeat by Onion. http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1087658/index.htm
You WILL note he banged his head on the gate. Perhaps YOU'D like to go back and read some reports, Kyzteke. I later remember it being claimed he lost a tooth. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. Maybe the claim was never very widely put about. No matter how you slice it, it wasn't much of an excuse and the tank was pretty empty; that was how it looked to me, and that was all the point I was making. I'd like to remind people I started this thread off poking some self-deprecation at my memory, being fully aware that sharing MY opinions about Secretariat were inviting the aforementioned big ol' can o' whoop-ass, and take a minute to postulate my view of this board as a place where folks of different stripes can come together for CIVILIZED discussions. If you can't dig it, Kyzteke, I'm sure there's a sandbox at a local kindergarden that's just your size.

What I got stirred up about, and the crappy book on Sham brought a lot of it up, was Sham didn't finish dead last that day, not after the kind of races he ran in the K. & P., without some kind of reason. Was it unwise for Pincay to send him after S. right from the start? Probably. But he was still better than every other horse there. That kind of precipitious plunge in performance - okay, in a horse that could run a Derby like his BLEEDING ALL THE WAY - bespeaks a significant physical problem. So anyway, what we've now managed to dig up is he fractured his cannon bone - the point of contention is they found it in July. But it's certainly conceivable that a hairline fracture happened during the Belmont. I just was after knowing what the actual history on all this was, and that's been answered, so thanks to those who filled a knowledge gap. And thanks also to folks who shared memories! That's VERY cool!

(To TB Collector, this is too odd: my horse's favorite treats are bananas & peppermints, too!)

[lesson junkie]

Mortebella-which book do you refer to?

[Fluffie]

I can't recall an offspring or grandget of Sham ever doing anything spectacular, and subscribed to Bloodhorse and TB Times for many many years.

For the record, I have a grandson (or great-grandsone--can't remember offhand) of Sham who is a wicked-awesome hunter. ;)

[mortebella]

Mortebella-which book do you refer to?

The book is "Sham: In the Shadow of a Superhorse," by Mary Walsh. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1593305060/ref=s9subs_c1_14_at1-rfc_p_si2?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-1&pf_rd_r=11ARVW9PM0WKZ3W1QDG7&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=463383351&pf_rd_i=507846

I call it a crappy book (it's been discussed in this thread a little and elsewhere, I believe) because the research is thin and there are some factual errors. I just feel if you're "trying to set the record straight" so to speak, to the extent that you're writing a whole book, why waste the chance? :sadsmile:

[Neighland]

I think Sham was a hell of a race horse, and had the misfortune of being born the same year as Secretariat....there was no doubt he was a superhorse in my mind......I believe Sham to have been every bit as great as the other TC winners, in fact he had the second fastest Derby time till Monarchos. That is an incredible feat, and as I said it is just a shame he was born the same year.

I don't think he sired anything grand, but I do believe he made quite an excellent broodmare sire.

I had a Sham daughter, that produced a daughter for me and the daughter produced a super nice Hanoverian cross gelding. She never did very well at the track a place or two and that was it!!

Attached is my Sham mare out of a Tom Rolfe mare w/her filly.

[summerhorse]

I think Sham was a hell of a race horse, and had the misfortune of being born the same year as Secretariat....there was no doubt he was a superhorse in my mind......I believe Sham to have been every bit as great as the other TC winners, in fact he had the second fastest Derby time till Monarchos. That is an incredible feat, and as I said it is just a shame he was born the same year.

I don't think he sired anything grand, but I do believe he made quite an excellent broodmare sire.

I had a Sham daughter, that produced a daughter for me and the daughter produced a super nice Hanoverian cross gelding. She never did very well at the track a place or two and that was it!!

Attached is my Sham mare out of a Tom Rolfe mare w/her filly.

Beautiful mare! I was actually a Sham fan back then (I was 11). I was so disappointed when he lost but can't take anything away from Secretariat either.

[DMK]

I myself think that Secretariat, while a great horse undoubtedly, has a Paul Bunyon-esq legend and myth about him that overshadows what the real horse accomplished and also failed at. We'll never know what would've happened had Spectacular Bid (http://articles.latimes.com/2001/oct/15/sports/sp-57521), Citation, Dr Fager or Kelso would've done against Secretariat. All ran with an insatiable internal drive mixed with physical ability the likes of which are found in such a precious few horses that it would be impossible to predict the outcome.

Now with all due respect to a lot of great horses, I think anyone who doubts the greeatness of Secretariat is just not on the same wavelength with most of the great horseman who judge such things. He was (and I quote ;) ) ... a tremendous machine :D

C'mon there is a reason why he sits 35th on the list of 100 greatest athletes, period and #2 on the Bloodhorse's list of 100 greatest racehorses, and it's not because the great racetrack writers and trainers of this century thought he'd likely lose to Citation, Kelso or Dr. Fager or the Bid if they all ran their best race in the same field (although I'd surely give the nod to Citation as the only one to come close).

Hell, even Bill Nack (granted, he comes with a bias) said this about the #2 placing:

Author Bill Nack commented regarding the outcome of why Man'OWar was selected #1 in the The Blood-Horse poll. "I spent two days on the project. The final results were skewered when, I am told, one of the judges put Secretariat fourteenth on his top-100 list. I don't know who this particular voter was---individual voting has remained a secret on that panel---but it was an idiotic judgment that should have been dismissed out of hand. Had I known any voter would do such a thing, I'd have put Man o' War in fourteenth place just to counterbalance the loony. That would have leveled the playing field. Here was a horse who had broken three track records in all three Triple Crown races, including the controversial Preakness clocking, two of which records (Derby and Belmont) still stand today; whose 31-length Belmont Stakes victory, in which he earned a Beyer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyer_Speed_Figure) of 137, is by consensus regarded as the greatest performance by a racehorse in history; and yet here was a voter who concocted a list suggesting that Secretariat would have finished last, behind 13 horses, in a field made up of that voter's first 14 horses on the list. It warped the voting and thereby tainted the list."It's also worth noting that while I think Sham was a really good horse who might have been viewed as a great horse in another year (woulda coulda shoulda), he does not make the list, period. Again, these are not people without knowledge on the voting panel, so I'd have to agree that from a rank of 2 to a possible highest rank of 101 for Sham is a long, long way from where the perceived talent of Secretariat lies. Maybe that's not fair and surely it is partially due to him being so thoroughly whupped by Secretariat in the Belmont, but short of getting in the way back machine and changing history I'm not sure what's available other than the opinions of some fairly knowledgable professionals and some folks on the interweb tubes.

[Glimmerglass]

Now with all due respect to a lot of great horses, I think anyone who doubts the greatness of Secretariat is just not on the same wavelength with most of the great horseman who judge such things. He was (and I quote ;) ) ... a tremendous machine :D

I respectfully disagree if that suggests he was head and shoulders above anything short of Man O'War:)

The role that television and magazines had, the charm of Penny, and the extraordinary effort in the Belmont all add in his favor to keeping his name in so many people's minds as beyond great .. not necessarily because they actually watched any of his races.

One could argue that human nature influenced by spin and popularity comes into play and as such those other horses of equal talent but less charming auras with the connections will never get a fair break. Few would say that the late Bud Delp was widely popular - a rascal who was good for a quote and a talented trainer - he was in sharp contrast to the beloved old trainers who rarely spoke or commented on their horses. The Meyerhoff family couldn't compare to Penny ... they were a very wealthy family and rather quiet. Then there is Ronny Fraanklin and even the steely Bill Shoemaker, enough said about both.

The point is that Spectacular Bid on paper with the track records, stakes records, and versatility exhibited is amazing. He was used without reservation and often.

Alas I don't expect to convince anyone otherwise as to their opinion ;)

[DMK]

You will not get any argument from me that the Bid was a whole level of awesome. I would even have to think long and hard as to who belongs at the top of the list: Secretariat or Man O'War. I just think its a bit of a jump to #3 regardless of which one occupies slot #1 or #2, and I think that generally speaking, when you assemble people who make a living at this sort of thing, that's the ONE thing they tend to agree on. I'm not sure that makes them more right, but it does mean they made more of a living at this business than I could hope to. ;) Mind you, it's still just their opinion, my opinion, your opinion and then again someone else's, what with us not having access to the wayback machine 'n all that.

But I do respectfully beg to differ about the charm of Penny Chenery and the presence of media in 1973. That's just a moment in time and heaven knows the press that surrounded the great racehorses of the 40's and 50's was as pervasive in its own way (not to mention the incredible popularity of the sport at the time). But I think we can all agree that not one of those things influenced how Secretariat or the Bid or any other horse on that list (or not) ran their races and set any records that may or may not be standing today.

[mortebella]

I am also of the persuasion that much of the opinion of Secretariat is a conflation of multiple forces of the time, and that the record alone, and the horse himself, don't justify the cult-like status. Not arguing he's a good horse. :D Just would argue that he's THAT MUCH BETTER than many others, as so many people seem to think. But hey, somebody had to be #2 on that list. And Man o' War would've beaten the snot out of him :D

[dressagetraks]

Regarding Secretariat, who definitely was a great horse, I can't resist throwing in an almost-never-cited statistic regarding my personal favorite:

The total winning margin of the Triple Crown races - all three winning margins put together - was identical for Secretariat and Count Fleet. And Count Fleet ran on tracks which in 1943 had surfaces which were maintained on a shoestring because of the war and gas rationing. Tracks tried to run their equipment as little as possible to groom the surface. I submit that no other Triple Crown winner had to run over surfaces in poorer condition than did Count Fleet. Hertz always blamed war rationing and the resultant track conditions for Count Fleet's career-ending injury. There is no question that Count Fleet suffered an injury in the Belmont, enough of one that the thought of pulling up crossed his jockey's mind, and Count Fleet pushed on with his typical bullheadedness and finished out the race anyway. It is my personal opinion that that injury cost him at least half a length in margin, with the addition of which he would hold the total margin of victory record single-handedly.

However, we all have our opinions, and none of them at this stage can be proven to be the final answer on who was best.

Back to Sham, I met him at Spendthrift Farm once. A beautiful horse.

[mortebella]

It's a good point you make, Dressagetraks, about opinions. It's fascinating to me to look at all the stuff that's available on YouTube now that I grew up reading about and NEVER thought I'd see - Count Fleet being one great example, Citation, Whirlaway, Assault. What I'd give to see footage of Display!!! I think we do tend, as a way of assimilating information, to rank it :) and since the nature of horse racing is competitive anyway... Nah, we'll never have definitive answers, but it's loads of fun to sit around and think about, as opposed to, let's say, the economy :) I also think about the role weight imposts play, and how long a horse's career was, and how these skew the reputation, if you see where I'm going. Like, I don't think losses you can put down to a weight impost should count the same exactly as a loss at 2 or 3 where the playing field is level, weight wise. But I certainly would never just sit down and make a rubric for all this kind of thing because that would be...too much like accounting!

I am glad you met Sham, and it sounds like he enjoyed a nice retirement. I'm happy for him.

[gholem]

I actually think one of secretariat's best races was the Man O'War. It was his first race on grass. I don't think he gets enough credit for being able to run on both dirt and grass. The main challenger, Tentam, was a great 4yo turf horse who definitely had heart. He makes a run at secretariat about half way through and gets up to his hind end when secretariat realizes he's there and pulls away. He then makes another move near the top of stretch and secretariat pulls away from him again.

When you see that, it says to me that BOTH horses have heart, one just got better genes for running.

The time for the 1.5 miles was 2:24.6, I think. Pretty close to his dirt belmont time - it wasn't a complete fluke. And the turns on the turf course are tighter.

The race: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNHJkz5K6uk

[Jumpin_Horses]

Obligatory Secretariat Belmont Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2c_ylcxgCaI)

Can't mention the big red name without linking that footage. :)

I've seen it a million times and it still gives me chills to hear "HE IS MOVING LIKE A TREMENDOUS MACHINE!!!"

.... SECRETARIATs ALL ALONE!!!!!!!!!!!!

yea, baby.... Secretariat's run still brings tears to my eyes.. I worship that horse....... I DO... to this day.... (I know, Im weird... :cool:) IMO - he was the most amazing horse that ever lived.... next to my mare, of course.

I was watching my Secretariat vid, and he did lose a couple of races, he lost his first because he got sandwiched in at the start, then there was a couple of other ones where he got like 3rd or 4th (I suck at details), in which he had a fever, and one where he had a tooth abcess..

about Sham..... I LOVED Sham.. poor guy, that horse was great. he just didnt have enough stamina to run with Secretariat. but, one thing that caught my attention in the video is that Sham got the crap whipped out of him by his jockey.... Ron always had his whip put away, but, Sham's jockey was horrible to Sham. Ron Turcotte said that he could hear poor Sham just getting the daylights beat out of him, and he always felt sorry for Sham..

now, if you were Sham (and we all know TBs here) would YOU give 100% to someone who beat on you constantly? :no: IDK - perhaps if Turcotte road Sham :yes:

what do you guys think?

[DMK]

He makes a run at secretariat about half way through and gets up to his hind end when secretariat realizes he's there and pulls away. He then makes another move near the top of stretch and secretariat pulls away from him again.

When you see that, it says to me that BOTH horses have heart, one just got better genes for running.

That really was an amazing race - I hadn't seen it in years (decades?) - Tentam made two gritty, sustained runs at Secretariat. How many horses have 2 runs in them, period, never mind in a 1.5 mile race? Awesome. And for all that, Secretariat pretty much toyed with him...

Just as some people adore something because of the the media hype (the "ooh pretty shiny" syndrome), I think others like to knock something down for pretty much no other reason than the media hype (the "old coot" syndrome). Just the other side of the same coin, I guess.

[WhiteCamry]

I agree. A race like that beats the crap out of the psyche of the game. A sad reality of the mental part of the sport.
That's always what I reckoned: Sham threw in the towel on the far turn.

[Everythingbutwings]

Just would argue that he's THAT MUCH BETTER than many others, as so many people seem to think

Aside from his incredible performances on the track, his place in history is solidified by:

Lady's Secret
Risen Star
Chief's Crown
General Assembly

Weekend Surprise
A.P. Indy
Summer Squall
Honor Grades

Terlingua
Storm Cat

Secrettame
Gone West

Sister Dot
Dehere

I'm sure I'm leaving out an important sire or more. When you look at the top 10 sires in the world today, a good many of them have Secretariat as their Broodmare sire.

Leading Broodmare sire in 1992

1992 Secretariat Bold Ruler-Somethingroyal; 2s 7,512,915 Claiborne, KY died 1989 A.P. Indy

[Barbara D.]

The role that television and magazines had, the charm of Penny, and the extraordinary effort in the Belmont all add in his favor to keeping his name in so many people's minds as beyond great .. not necessarily because they actually watched any of his races.
.....

Alas I don't expect to convince anyone otherwise as to their opinion ;)

To me, the Belmont is really the race that sealed it for most people (at the time, of course, it was rumored he was on Equipoise, a....dare I say it...steroid!).

Phenomenal horse, no doubt. Wow, gave goosebumps on occasion....and what a handsome, flashy package! Certainly in the top 10 of the last 100+ years, although I'd probably put him around #5.

He had weird losses - all of which later were heavy with excuses. By the time the Preakness was run, Lauren Lucien was still saying he had no idea why Secretariat ran a lackluster third in the Wood (eventually, a tooth abscess story took root). When he lost to Onion - and it was a flat-out loss - they came up with sickness as an excuse. When he lost to Prove Out? Gee, I can't remember what their excuse was for that 4+-length drubbing, but they had one.

His wins were really exciting, no doubt. He was a big old train out there and, on his day, was absolutely unbelievable. But having to make excuses for his trio of losses at 3, to me, puts him just a step behind Citation.

While many racing experts put Secretariat at #1 or 2 on their greatest list, many also don't. Their quotes simply aren't used in Secretariat-related articles, as they don't help with promoting the legend.

Great? Yes. Immortal? Yes. One of the greatest ever? Yes. That's the best I can grant him...and that's not bad. ;)

Secretariat also later gained this odd reputation for being the perfectly conformed racehorse, which is at odds with what was written about him at the time. Check out the racing manuals from 'the day' - back when they used to study everything about a horse from his hooves to the curve of his ears (back when racing really mattered and, some might argue, writers really studied horses). Secretariat, while very well put together, was no Buckpasser.

[WhiteCamry]

Aside from his incredible performances on the track, his place in history is solidified by:

Lady's Secret
Risen Star
Chief's Crown
General Assembly


Tinner's Way
Kingston Rule

[WhiteCamry]

He had weird losses - all of which later were heavy with excuses. By the time the Preakness was run, Lauren Lucien was still saying he had no idea why Secretariat ran a lackluster third in the Wood (eventually, a tooth abscess story took root). When he lost to Onion - and it was a flat-out loss - they came up with sickness as an excuse. When he lost to Prove Out? Gee, I can't remember what their excuse was for that 4+-length drubbing, but they had one.

The Wood, the Withers, the Woodward ... apparently, the letter 'W' was his kryptonite. All the better that he finished up in the Canadian Int'l rather than the Washington, DC, Intl.



Secretariat also later gained this odd reputation for being the perfectly conformed racehorse, which is at odds with what was written about him at the time. Check out the racing manuals from 'the day' - back when they used to study everything about a horse from his hooves to the curve of his ears (back when racing really mattered and, some might argue, writers really studied horses). Secretariat, while very well put together, was no Buckpasser.

I've read here and there of both being described as the perfect conformation.

[slvrblltday]

To me, the Belmont is really the race that sealed it for most people (at the time, of course, it was rumored he was on Equipoise, a....dare I say it...steroid!).


And on this subject did anyone see that John Veitch recently admitted to using cobra venom on Alydar (http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/venomous-confession-by-veitch-about-alydar/)?

This doesn't exactly make Veitch on par with Biancone, but it indeed hurts to find cracks in the rose colored glasses we use to look at horses of yesteryear...

[Glimmerglass]

Secretariat also later gained this odd reputation for being the perfectly conformed racehorse, which is at odds with what was written about him at the time.

Oh I think his reputation has been downplayed in other areas too - supressed by the media are the real stories that

* at Siros (http://www.sirosrestaurant.com/) one night in 1972 Secretariat was a guest bartneder and made what some still to this day say was the best Moscow Mule tasted. His ability to add just the right amount of lime put people in awe only to be surpassed a year later by his talents at Belmont Park

* he exhibited a little known series of watercolors to great acclaim at Yaddo (http://www.yaddo.org/) just days before the Whitney Handicap in 1973; an innovator even then he used just "S" as his name. Those works later ended up in a dormatory hall at Smith College and then said to be eerily lost in a fire.

* on a non-descript track in Western NY long since lost when being shipped back from Canada he took part in an illegal race where he not only won on one track but simultainiously won an another. The latter was by 101 lengths putting to rest in the eyes of those there his superiority to the Man O'War legend of a 100 length victory

* on his more warm and touching side visitors at the time will swear they saw him once guide a dog and cat to freedom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adventures_of_Milo_and_Otis) on their journey as they passed through his paddock at Claiborne. Still disputed however was the suggestion that he hummed doe a deer a female deer in the process

* he was originally one of the picks for the character of Indiana Jones above Tom Selleck, Nick Nolte and Harrison Ford; due to his breeding committments he had to pass although the screen test notes remarked him to be a 'penny colored Robert Mitchum (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ku-GIeMegn8&feature=related)'

Yes his legend lives on :D

[vineyridge]

To the list of horses who probably would have won the Triple Crown, you have to add Tim Tam, who limped home second on a broken sesamoid. To me that exemplifies heart.

He is one horse who is terribly underrated as a race horse; and he, too, was a good damsire.

[Barbara D.]

American Racing Manual (1973) wrote many very glowing things about Secretariat's build/conformation, but they noted what some might consider defects. At the time, the thing I remember most people mentioning was his 'goose rump.'

Secretariat represents the Nearco type. They are heavily bodied and heavily muscled.... Some have been indulged in gluttony, become gross and expired of heart attacks in consequence.

Big horses of the type of Secretariat ... are not every horseman's taste, though they fill the eye. Old time racing men include those who prefer them hard and wirey, or modeled on a smaller scale...

Secretariat has a strong, masculine neck of proportionate length, though it inclines to be straight and heavy. ... His scapula is well placed, though some might consider it a trifle too extensive to accommodate a humerus of approximately equal length, or one upright as desired. ...

A yearling buyer might look askance at his knees, though they are reputed never to have given concern. Here again there is a compensatory point, for he is slightly over on them, which reduces the concussion from impact with the racing surface....

The pelvis is exceedingly sloping, however, giving him a vaguely goose-rumped aspect at first glance....

Walking off after a race, Secretariat divulges nothing of his extended action. He goes frightfully short behind, like so many Princequillos, and wide in front, like most of the Bold Rulers. At a glance, one might suspect he had bucked.....

[Barbara D.]

* he exhibited a little known series of watercolors to great acclaim at Yaddo (http://www.yaddo.org/) just days before the Whitney Handicap in 1973; an innovator even then he used just "S" as his name. Those works later ended up in a dormatory hall at Smith College and then said to be eerily lost in a fire.


That's what they want you to believe. Those watercolors look great here in my livingroom.

That post was classic, Glimmerglass.

[DMK]

And on this subject did anyone see that John Veitch recently admitted to using cobra venom on Alydar (http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/venomous-confession-by-veitch-about-alydar/)?

This doesn't exactly make Veitch on par with Biancone, but it indeed hurts to find cracks in the rose colored glasses we use to look at horses of yesteryear...

Honestly, people were injecting that stuff like it was a steroid. I knew backyard horses who showed at glorified local shows that got the stuff back in the day. It's like Barbara's tale of equipoise. Do I believe Secretariat had it? I don't have a clue, but I wouldn't be remotely surprised. You could have bought it over the counter from the feed and tack store I worked at as a 15 year old and every tom dick and harry in the breed halter world and racing world was using it and even as a fairly ignorant teenager even I knew that.

It doesn't make it right or good, but slapping today's knowledge and judgments on yesterday's action isn't usually going to get you anyplace useful, I think its far better to just try and learn from the past so you can avoid repeating it.

[Barbara D.]

DMK,

Like you, remember when Equipoise was no big deal - many people used it on their horses. I even remember what the bags looked like, and Equipoise ads were common in horse magazines.

[Glimmerglass]

Well it's not like Phar Lap wasn't given juice at the time thought to be good

UK Independent 25 April 2008 "'Recipe book' holds the clue to Phar Lap's death" (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/recipe-book-holds-the-clue-to-phar-laps-death-815435.html)

Phar Lap probably died as a result of arsenic administered by his own trainer, rather than being murdered by American gangsters as Australians have long believed. That is the conclusion of experts who have studied a "recipe book" of tonics used by Phar Lap's trainer, Harry Telford, which sold at auction yesterday for close to £18,000.

Among the ingredients the tonics contained were arsenic, strychnine, belladonna, cocaine and caffeine – given to horses in small quantities in the past, as stimulants, before a race.

Sad to say but Phar Lap was quite possibly just one of many juiced up horses of the era. Nothing like some Coke, Red Bull, and Winstrol to get 'em going ....

[Barbara D.]

Nothing like some Coke, Red Bull, and Winstrol to get 'em going ....

I wish I had some of that mix for the next few days to get me through Christmas, ho ho ho.

[WhiteCamry]

Oh I think his reputation has been downplayed in other areas too - supressed by the media are the real stories that

* at Siros (http://www.sirosrestaurant.com/) one night in 1972 Secretariat was a guest bartneder and made what some still to this day say was the best Moscow Mule tasted. His ability to add just the right amount of lime put people in awe only to be surpassed a year later by his talents at Belmont Park

* he exhibited a little known series of watercolors to great acclaim at Yaddo (http://www.yaddo.org/) just days before the Whitney Handicap in 1973; an innovator even then he used just "S" as his name. Those works later ended up in a dormatory hall at Smith College and then said to be eerily lost in a fire.

* on a non-descript track in Western NY long since lost when being shipped back from Canada he took part in an illegal race where he not only won on one track but simultainiously won an another. The latter was by 101 lengths putting to rest in the eyes of those there his superiority to the Man O'War legend of a 100 length victory

* on his more warm and touching side visitors at the time will swear they saw him once guide a dog and cat to freedom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adventures_of_Milo_and_Otis) on their journey as they passed through his paddock at Claiborne. Still disputed however was the suggestion that he hummed doe a deer a female deer in the process

* he was originally one of the picks for the character of Indiana Jones above Tom Selleck, Nick Nolte and Harrison Ford; due to his breeding committments he had to pass although the screen test notes remarked him to be a 'penny colored Robert Mitchum (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ku-GIeMegn8&feature=related)'

Yes his legend lives on :D

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Glimmerglass]

Finally a good reflective article on Sham - the often under appreciated runner:

BloodHorse 7-9-09, Steve Haskin "Sham Rocks" (http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/horse-racing-steve-haskin/archive/2009/07/09/sham-rocks.aspx)

excerpt

Let’s not forget that there is much more to Sham’s resume than finishing second to Secretariat in the Kentucky Derby and Preakness. Before he came face to face with his nemesis, Sham won the Santa Anita Derby in a stakes record-equaling 1:47 flat and captured the Santa Catalina Stakes over a deep, muddy track. Prior to those races he won a pair of 1 1/16-mile allowance races by six and 15 lengths. In his six-length score, his time of 1:41 2/5 was only a second off the track record. In his final start at 2, he broke his maiden at Aqueduct by six lengths, also in the mud, in hand the length of the stretch.

[Barnfairy]

Aw.

I *heart* Sham (or as the Deborah Clasky in Secretariat would say: "I love you for trying!"). :sadsmile: