Early Weaning??? Help with thoughts

[MardiGrasTimeStable]

Dumb question but I'm already online and its too late to call the vet tonight (I'll talk to her Monday).

I've got a broodmare that I "inherited" already bred that was already in "poor" condition. But I swear since she has foaled she's putting EVERYTHING she eats straight into her milk, cause that little colt is GROWING and stocky...but she's still loosing condition.

Our biggest problem with her keeping weight is that she is a BAD cribber - no ulcers. But her cribbing is NOT controlled with a collar - she is the ONLY horse I've ever met that would adjust her grip to crib on the side of a tree if nothing else is available.

She's eating Omelene 300 - 20 lbs split into 3 feedings, plus about 10 lbs of soaked Beet Pulp and Alfalfa Cubes. Plus a 40 lb bale of hay a day... I'm all for keeping as much hay in front of her as possible.

So I'm afraid I'm going to need to wean this colt before we get to the 6 month mark if we can (we're at only 6 weeks now!). He's already creep feeding on his own - and helping mama out with her meals so we've started giving him a bucket right next to her at feeding time. He's an independent little cuss who could care less where mama is - and she's relieved when she gets the break when he's at the other end of her pasture grazing by himself.

So.... all you breeding guru's - what's the safest EARLIEST we can even start to think about weaning him? I was thinking by 3 months - still WAY too early or safe enough?

Like I stared with - I'm going to ask the vet when I talk to her on Monday. I was just thinking about it tonight as I was looking back over the photos we've been tracking her condition with.

[Ainsley]

I think that as long as the foal is eating well, healthy and active and has a good turnout buddy (preferably with another baby too), he should be just fine.

My lovely old lady who we lost this summer was always really hard to keep any weight on and was 10X worse with a foal on her. She would do exactly as yours is doing: everything to babe. By the time her foals were a bit less than 2 months old, we started to wean. We were lucky that all of her foals were independant and healthy, we have good "aunties" and other babies to turn out with etc and we always bred this mare a month or more later than her broodie friends so that we could wean everyone at the same time. We never had any trouble.

I think you are on the right track by offering baby a bucket of his own for dinner. I would also try separating them at dinner time if possible so that momma gets ALL of her food into her without having to share with baby. Although I think most will agree that weaning at 2 months is not ideal, I also think your little guy should be just fine.

Best of luck.

Jennifer

**I also have to add that I am fully aware of what all the studies say about cribbing not being a learned habit... but I'm not sure I believe them fully. We looked after one mare who was a bad cribber (fortunately I didn't own her) and every foal she ever had was a cribber by the time they were weaned at 4 months. I admit that I would probably be weaning early just for that reason, even if mom was an easy keeper.**

[MardiGrasTimeStable]

Although I think most will agree that weaning at 2 months is not ideal, I also think your little guy should be just fine.

Best of luck.

Jennifer

Thanks. I am thinking if I can get him to 3 month before weaning I'll be a whole lot happier. But at the same time I really want to make sure we don't end up pulling the mare down any worse than we have to.
I'm not going to rebreed the mare at this time - I'm planning to start the mare back under saddle in the spring.

[rideagoldenpony]

I wonder if the mare might do better on a more processed/digestible feed like Purina Equine Junior. That is what I have had good success with -- feeding to both the mare and foal if the mare is being pulled down. You could also think about adding some oil to her feed to up her calorie intake.

The other thing that came to mind with the cribbing -- wonder if she could possibly have ulcers? Many years ago we were sent a stallion that cribbed terribly, and was VERY VERY hard to keep weight on. He would have rather cribbed than eat. In hindsight, I've wondered if a course of ranitidine might have been helpful.

As far as weaning your baby, last year, due to an unfortunate circumstance, we were forced to wean a foal at 8 weeks. I would never have done that had there been any other option, but it was necessary. Per my vet, we bought a big bag of the Foal Lac pellets, and fed him those, with Equine Junior and probiotics four times a day. He bloomed on that, and is a fat, healthy, huge yearling today. If things are looking dire with your mare, and you can't get a handle on her weight, you might just have to look at weaning him earlier than you would like.

[Simkie]

My cribber ALWAYS cribbed more when he was on any sort of sweet feed. I think the suggestion of Equine Junior (or Triple Crown Junior, or Ultium [which has more calories per pound than anything else]) is a good one.

[VirginiaBred]

I'll assume you've tried the Miracle Collar? We have a mare that cribs, but NEVER with that on.

I definitely think a change of grain will help. Keep the beet pulp for the forage, but add Fat Cat supplement.

Have you had her teeth checked???

Regarding you saying she doesn't have ulcers, I think she should be treated for them anyway. She sure *sounds* like she has them.

[Kyzteke]

My cribber ALWAYS cribbed more when he was on any sort of sweet feed. I think the suggestion of Equine Junior (or Triple Crown Junior, or Ultium [which has more calories per pound than anything else]) is a good one.

I agree -- this has been my experience as well. Personally I would ditch the Omolene 300, up the BP, ad oil (THE densest form of fat available) and used something like Ultium or Equine Jr. to fill in the blanks (keeping the alfalfa pellets as well).

Also -- have you had her teeth done and has she been wormed several times? Both of these things will help weight gain.

Of course some mares just give "everything" to the foal no matter what you do, and this poor gal sounds like she already started out behind the 8 ball.

Feeding babe his own chow is a great first start, although at this stage he can't really metabolize grains. But it will take abit of stress off of mom.

And don't worry about weaning at 3 months. I've weaned afew that early and routinely wean at 4-5 months and never had a problem. Just be sure (as other posters mentioned) that the kid has playmates or other horsie influences after he's weaned to continue to teach him good horsie manners -- but then you would want to do that no matter what age you wean.

[pintopiaffe]

I had to wean one at 5 weeks--not by choice, she was orphaned. At that point the vet was not concerned at ALL. He said in essence she had gotten all the good stuff, and she would be fine.

I always wean as late as possible, I like 5-6 mos. BUT, having said that, and having gone through that experience, I think certainly there are times you need to do it sooner, and 99% of the time, things will be just fine. Three months is early, but not awful.

If you can, consult a nutritionist and get the right milk-replacer or foal pellet. Remember their guts really don't digest "grain" properly until six months or later... so a true foal-food is important if you're weaning early. I don't know if searching this forum will bring up that info, but there have been some great posts on it. There are several really good choices of foal feed, and you can mail order Progressive if you can't get it in your area.

I'm going to third (fourth) the suggestion that Omelene isn't the best bang-for-your-buck feed wise, but then it might be all you've got. Are you adding any fat? Up to 2 cups a day might help more than anything else. It's 'safe' calories too.

Good luck, sounds like you've got a challenge.

[secretariat]

Good advice, I concur.

To add, weaning is not an age thing, it's a maturity issue -- can/will they eat, and can they digest. We've raised orphaned foals, and they've done fine -- just a hell of a lot of work. You'll have to watch and adapt to what the foal needs. You said two keys to the situation: (1) it's an independent little cuss and (2) it's eating now, even to the point of eating out of mom's bucket. Both tell me to wean now. BTW, for the mare's sake, I consider 6 months to be too long especially if she's rebred.

For the cribbing, have you tried electric fence?

[MardiGrasTimeStable]

Ulcers - the mare has been checked by the vet for ulcers and we've also gone ahead and did a round of U-guard "just in case". We powerpac-ed the mare as soon as she foaled (we were unsure of her foaling date, so didn't want to risk more than regular worming until then). Her teeth were checked & floated over the summer and other than her front teeth being a bit worn from cribbing her backs weren't bad.
The mare wears a miracle collar - no change. We've got her in an electric fence to help with the cribbing - but like I said she will crib on TREES!

Feed - I can change her feed - before she foaled we were trying all we could to get weight on her. We've tried Equine Junior, Equine Senior, Vitality Mare & Foal, SafeChoice (which is what the rest of the herd eats). We just never got the weight on her we needed to before she foaled so its been 100xs harder right now. But I sure as heck don't mind going back through them again a couple of weeks at a time each if it means I can keep the foal on her longer without loosing any more weight (she's getting close to a 3 on the weight/health scale)

Thanks for everyone's sugguestions!!!!

I do have a buddy horse the colt can go in with when we do wean him - a 10 month filly and an older baby-sitter gelding.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I would put her on a ration balancer like Grow N Win, then add oats or corn for calories. We have had incredible success with adding Purina Athlete for weight gain - more than anything else I or my many boarders over the last 30 years have tried, just a couple of pounds a day. If you can improve the hay to a strong alfalfa mix, that will really help.

We have not had good luck with the Miracle Collar - just the opposite. The best has been with the french collar (metal throat piece removed) or just a plain stirrup leather. Tighten another hole per day until she can't expand the muscle to crib.

[siegi b.]

Here's another strong vote for putting the mare on a ration balancer - most brands offer one now. You will end up feeding less but more concentrated meals and your mare will have an easier time trying to ingest it all. And yes, add oats as necessary. If the mare is not used to oil on her feed I would not recommend starting with that now.... it may cause her to eat less.

Good luck!

[FriesianX]

I have a mare who also puts everything into her milk. She is a porkchop the rest of the year, but my vet calls her the milk cow. We've tried all kinds of things with her, and now, we just know, we'll be weaning early. This past year, her colt was HUGE and FAT - the vet advised me to wean him at 2.5 months! I toughed it out to 3 months. Mare was on huge amounts of food, but he was sucking her dry. All his nutritional requirements have been met at that point, so we moved them next door to each other. That colt is healthy and quite well adjusted, and I hear from the owner once in a while, she just loves him.

A few years back, I had a mare get quite ill - we almost lost her, and I had to wean that foal early - again, no problems. The trick with the early weaning is make sure they have at least one buddy, and keep food in front of them all the time. If possible, keep the mare close enough so they can see each other - it is psychologically easier on the baby.

I also have an orphan colt I picked up at an auction - mare died while he was only a few weeks old, and he's huge and well adjusted (coming 2, and almost 16 hands). We had him on FoalLac for a while, until he hit that magic 10 week mark. Most vets I've talked to say, nutritionally, they babies can be on their own at about that point - but psychologically, they need company. So if you have a nursemaid gelding or mare or at least other foals, that becomes important.

By the way - I always wean by 4 to 5 months, as do most of the bigger WB facilities I have talked to. I do it in groups though - so one baby isn't weaned alone (which is why I may have a 4 or 4.5 month weaner in the group). Don't feel too guilty about weaning prior to 6 months :winkgrin:

Oh, I had to add - I agree, the Omalene is not the best way to pack calories on - too much sugar! We have a milling company locally that makes great rationers, and Purina and LMF and the other large feed companies all make good quality feeds - ask your vet to recommend something you can find locally.

[secretariat]

Agree with the psychological advice -- excellent post. We always wean in pairs if possible, if not we've got an aged pony who's the perfect babysitter.

[MardiGrasTimeStable]

Thanks!

I have the perfect babysitter gelding (its been his job for years and he loves it, he is also used for introducing any new horses into the main herd - they go in with him for a few weeks and then go out with the herd and he shows them the ropes).... I think we're going to see how it goes with changing her feed again until after Christmas and come the new year if no improvement we'll slowly start to wean him by stalling him across the aisle from his dam for a few hours and then overnight.

I feel better about it now y'all - thanks!!!

I really think she is just one of those mares that puts it all into her milk because she WAS gaining weight until she foaled, and now even with increasing her hay and grain she's loosing and he's growing *lol*

[pintopiaffe]

awww... your gelding sounds like a very special guy. :yes: