Thoroughbred Stallions

[rocksolid]

Hi,
I would like an honest answer from people who breed sport horses. If a thoroughbred stallion was approved in the registry you are affiliated with, would you breed to him? Please put aside conformational issues, etc. Would you breed to him? Why or why not? Thanks everyone in advance.

[Hillside H Ranch]

If I had the right mare, and he had the characteristics I was looking for, then yes. In fact, I've wanted to breed to Coconut Grove for a long time, but haven't had the right mare. But I might have the right one soon! In that case, I would actually be hoping for a filly, to use for future breeding, because what I want is really that F2 cross in my program.

[tuckawayfarm]

I am a fan of Coconut Grove as well. I think his offspring have done very well at their inspections. I would love to cross him with an old fashioned warmblood mare.

I think a TB has to be pretty special to be approved into the European books, so I wouldn't hesitate to use one on the right mare. :)

[TwinGates]

Hi,
I would like an honest answer from people who breed sport horses. If a thoroughbred stallion was approved in the registry you are affiliated with, would you breed to him? Please put aside conformational issues, etc. Would you breed to him? Why or why not? Thanks everyone in advance.

Depends on the stallion's fit w/my mares. I love the EU Thoroughbred stallions, and have a 25% TB/75% TK filly in Germany that I'd really like to breed to one before importing.

[camohn]

Hi,
I would like an honest answer from people who breed sport horses. If a thoroughbred stallion was approved in the registry you are affiliated with, would you breed to him? Please put aside conformational issues, etc. Would you breed to him? Why or why not? Thanks everyone in advance.

I had one we were doing the approval process wtih though he sadle passed away first. He did get interest from MOs with heavier type mares. Of course you will be targeting the h/j folks more than the dressage folks with a TB on the whole....so he better be able to jump!
Personally I am a weenie jumper rider and though he COULD jump just fine I would have been showing him in dressage. Until he would have been able to prove himself in that direction he would not have attracted a whole lot of dressage mares I am sure,though.
http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/camohn03/?action=view&current=BoomertrotOct05-1.jpg
inspection jump chute:
http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/camohn03/?action=view&current=BoomerJump.jpg

[TouchstoneAcres]

Yes and I did breed to Innkeeper and love the mare we got as a result.

[RioTex]

I have a young TB stallion and have thought about whether or not it would matter if he were approved. I do the hunters and although he is scopey, he is a hunter at heart. I think I will end up with a few of his offspring each year for myself to start and sell than I will ever see outside breedings. If it looks like a hunter and moves and JUMPS like a hunter, it won't matter how it's bred in the end.

[unbridledoaks]

I have a few Breeders were I live and I asked them the same question over the years. They all told me if the stallion matched what they were looking for, passed qualities on to their foals that they liked, of course they would breed to them.

[rocksolid]

Its funny, but some thoroughbred stallions in Europe get a lot of breedings, such as Roven, Prince Thatch, etc. It just doesn't sem like people trust TBs as much in the USA. Is that the Europeans think more in generations than we do? What do you think?

[ponygirl]

Yes and I did. I have a Coconut Grove long yearling in my barn. I've seen quite a few of them now out of a wide variety of mares and I'm impressed!

[Cinnybren]

Yes, I have. I bred my older type Holsteiner mare to A Fine Romance and the result was a very nice colt. I was hoping for a filly to take her mama's place and then look to the F2 cross, but I've got my little man. The trainers who have seen him really like him and his type. He moves very nicely and has a great look for the hunter ring, though I bred him for the jumpers. Time will tell in which ring we decide to compete, maybe both!

So, yes, if you have the right type mare.

[Sacha]

Yes, there is a lovely stallion in the UK - Set Adrift - that I tried to breed a mare to this year but she didnt take. He is approved with the British Warmblood society and I am going to ask his owner if she will present him to the Trakehner society as he is a cracking stamp

[TwinGates]

Its funny, but some thoroughbred stallions in Europe get a lot of breedings, such as Roven, Prince Thatch, etc. It just doesn't sem like people trust TBs as much in the USA. Is that the Europeans think more in generations than we do? What do you think?

I don't think trust has anything to do w/it. There are some excellent TB stallions in the U.S. (along w/those mentioned here, Denny Emerson's fabulous Aberjack and recently deceased Reputed Testimony spring to mind).

Europeans DO think more in generations than we do, but my reason for preferring EU Thoroughbreds is because - by & large - they have more bone than U.S. TB's. Form follows function, and in Europe, far more TB's run on grass & of course, compete as steeplechasers. Bone needs to be denser for this type racing and because I breed Trakehners - which are known as refiners - while not necessarily looking to ADD bone, neither do I want to subtract it.

[karin@dutchbreeders@aol.com]

Hello Everyone!
Just wanted to mention that I went to Penn Ridge Farm today and saw all four of their TB Stallions. Real Quiet is the most "famous" stallion there, but I was very taken with Trust N Luck (Montbrook - Bold Burst, by Dahar)! He was very correct and had an incredible temperament (a reall doll!!). He seems to be the sort of TB sire that would excell in sport horse breeding as he is the longer lined, more "distance type" stallion. Of course I couldn't see him move, but if he is a "good mover" would seriously consider him to add blood and to create a very nice sport type horse. FYI, the website for Penn Ridge is www.pennridgefarms.com . In addition to Trust N Luck and Real Quiet (Quiet American -Really Blue by Believe It), Cat Thief (Storm Cat-Train Robbery by Alydar) and Delawared Township (Notebook - Sunny Mimosa by Sunny North) also stand there....
warmly,
Karin

[columbus]

Nice sport pedigree. I am looking for young TB sport stallion s for the future. He looks pretty good. PatO

http://www.pennridgefarms.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=8&Itemid=33&e5720df9eb145e22319135dc4dce0cac=b2f442a483a73fcad 0dbc0ff1b32df5e

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/trust+n+luck

[rocksolid]

I'm not sure I believe that you need more "bone" to race on grass. If that was so, why is the US pushing the synthetic tracks? Wouldn't dirt be safer, since our TBs are getting so fragile? Also the stallions Twin Gates mentioned are by and large event stallions. What about dressage and jumpers? I think we have some terrific TB stallions in the US, including the ones Twin Gates mentioned, but I think breeders are shy to breed to them. I heard a story from a dealer that he had a lady come out and try a jumper. The woman jumped the horse around a 4ft course and the horse never made a mistake. In fact, according to the dealer, the horse corrected the lady's errors. She was all gung ho to have the horse vetted and she asked what type of horse he was. The dealer told her he was an american thoroughbred. Once she heard this, she said she was no longer interested. He swears it is true. Are we that prejudiced against TBs?

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I heard a story from a dealer that he had a lady come out and try a jumper. The woman jumped the horse around a 4ft course and the horse never made a mistake. In fact, according to the dealer, the horse corrected the lady's errors. She was all gung ho to have the horse vetted and she asked what type of horse he was. The dealer told her he was an american thoroughbred. Once she heard this, she said she was no longer interested. He swears it is true. Are we that prejudiced against TBs?


if that story was true....it is just a stupid person...and I don't think the norm. Hell GEM TWIST was 100% TB. I don't know any jumper rider who really cares what breed a horse is....if they leave the jumps up that is what matters! I only care about the breeding if I'm looking at a youngster that is unproven or unstarted (or a mare)....because then the breeding can at least give you some indication as to what the horse may become (or what they could produce). But an adult horse already performing....nope, look at the individual.

[Arcadien]

I'm not sure I believe that you need more "bone" to race on grass. If that was so, why is the US pushing the synthetic tracks? Wouldn't dirt be safer, since our TBs are getting so fragile?

While the jury is still out (racing is still mainly in evidence collecting stage re: synthetics) it seems the synthetic tracks are "safer" than dirt (note the latest analysis I read pointed to about as many breakdowns as dirt, but far, far less catostrophic, career (or life) ending injuries).

And that they seem equivalent to turf in performance - horses don't seem to run quite as fast, but in more of a turf running style (look at how great the Euro's did at this year's Breeders Cup, the first one on a synthetic track - they cleaned up, with their mostly turf trained horses).

I for one was happy to see the result of the B.C., thinking it might encourage American racing breeders to lean towards Euro type, sounder, turf type blood (I'm a racing fan always with an eye on the horses second sport careers!). But any change like this, if it is going to come, will take a long time to come.

As for TB's for sport, I look at performance records of first two generations, in addition to the physical specimen - like to see parents & grandparents that raced to 4 yo at least, started more than a handful of times, and won. Steer clear of these "junior wonders" that won millions in 5 or 6 races and then broke down.

I like the Steeple chase lines - those horses not only have to have jump, they are sound, long career horses! (Don't be put off by the flat, long jumping styles, they are taught to jump at speed like that - they can be made into lovely sport style jumpers too!)

But I'm probably not useful for this discussion in particular, as I'm a TB person through and through - a bit prejudiced ;) have no idea how warmblood breeders/buyers look at TB blood in a sport horse...

Arcadien

[beanie&boomer]

I have a 17.1H TB stallion named Mt. Vidmore that I am crossing to WB and sport-type mares. My first foals are due this spring and I'm really excited about them. He's already 10, so we will probably never go the approval or competition route, but I hope to prove him through his foals. He's from a great family (Mt. Livermore, Blushing Groom, Pleasant Colony, Nijinsky) and lots of his relatives and siblings have had good longevity in their racing careers. I love his look and athleticism, and most of all his disposition. He's located in Maryland.

[Parrotnutz]

My mare's sire is a TB names Alota Gator Bait and I recommend him highly. Of course my mare is appendix QH not WB......so not sure what you are looking for and I am not sure how many breeds he is approved for.
You can see my mare in my webshots in my signature line....she is 17 hands and always taken for a TB/WB cross......she Loves to jump

[Waterwitch]

from a great family (Mt. Livermore, Blushing Groom, Pleasant Colony, Nijinsky)

Just FYI, I believe when one refers to "family" in terms of TBs (and most other breeds) one is referring to the horses descended from the dams in the tail female line. So in Mt. Vidmore's case, that would be horses like Mt. V's half brother Wanderin' Boy (who after a career plagued by soundness issues caused by repeated fractures, was sadly raced to the point of a catastrophic breakdown recently :(), and Steady Kid who was out of Mt. V's second dam, etc. In other words, while Pleasant Colony is Mt. Vidmore's damsire, he would not be considered part of his "family" (those things aside, I like your boy's pedigree).

[fish]

I don't think trust has anything to do w/it. There are some excellent TB stallions in the U.S. (along w/those mentioned here, Denny Emerson's fabulous Aberjack and recently deceased Reputed Testimony spring to mind).

Europeans DO think more in generations than we do, but my reason for preferring EU Thoroughbreds is because - by & large - they have more bone than U.S. TB's. Form follows function, and in Europe, far more TB's run on grass & of course, compete as steeplechasers. Bone needs to be denser for this type racing and because I breed Trakehners - which are known as refiners - while not necessarily looking to ADD bone, neither do I want to subtract it.

I beg to differ: by & large, TB's and their bloodlines are international: "EU Thoroughbreds" have no more or less bone than "U.S. TB's" because they are actually the same horses-- indeed the 2 stallions mentioned in this thread, Roven and Prince Thatch, are as American as anything else: Roven was Arg. bred and imported for use in the Netherlands after a successful showjumping career here in the USA, and 3/4 of Prince Thatch's grandparents were bred and raced in the Western Hemisphere (1 Arg. and 2 US). As for all those great European turf horses-- they're mostly Northern Dancer (Can) descendents, a number of whom top steeplechase charts both here and abroad, too.

It is, indeed, a great irony that Americans import TB blood from Europe when the same stuff is so abundant right here at home. Best example of that had to be Mytens: a 100% US bred TB for 3 generations back whose value as a sport horse was (of course) established in Germany :(

[rocksolid]

Fish, I think you hit it right on the head. The thoroughbred stallions have to go to Europe to become "Made" even though they started out here. Once again are we (american breeders) afraid to use a TB stallion? My wife and I no longer breed, but when we did the first stallion we chose was a TB. That foal was our favorite. I would definitely breed to another TB

[JER]

Yes, I would breed to a TB for sporthorses.

I bred my TB mare to Heroicity when he stood (too briefly) at Hilltop. I have a lovely coming 3 year-old filly.

As my broodmare is a TB, I really wanted one of her foals to be a full TB, even though it was AI and therefore no JC papers.

[WWEB]

Noble Houston was approved with RPSI in 2006
and was also approved with ISR/OLD in 2008
was given 8's on his neck, shoulder and saddle position - fairly rare scores for a TB.

Many nice WB/ TB crosses on the ground. He carries very good sporthorse lines. (Houston/ Vaguely Noble / Damascus)

http://www.worldwideequine.net/Stallions.htm

[TKR]

Noble Houston is a super example of a good sporthorse type. He is just lovely and seems to produce it. I hope he gets alot of nice mares!
PennyG

[Fred]

Yes, I have. I bred my older type Holsteiner mare to A Fine Romance and the result was a very nice colt. I was hoping for a filly to take her mama's place and then look to the F2 cross, but I've got my little man. The trainers who have seen him really like him and his type. He moves very nicely and has a great look for the hunter ring, though I bred him for the jumpers. Time will tell in which ring we decide to compete, maybe both!

So, yes, if you have the right type mare.

thank you BNH, you have a lovely mare, and a very handsome baby!

A Fine Romance is a Gold Premium Canadian Sport Horse Stallion and ISR/Old NA approved.
He is of course a registered Thoroughbred stallion, whom I bred to be a racehorse, but he competed successfully in eventing and in the Working Hunters.

Many WB mares are bred to him, and their foals are eligible for registry in CSHA or ISR/Old NA if the mares are approved.

His offspring, full TB and WB TB x's are winning in eventing, show jumping, the hunter ring, on the line and even in dressage.


I also agree with the points made by Fish and rocksolid.
One often hears about the difference between US and European TBs, but in fact TBs are extremely 'international'.
If you look at AFR's pedigree for example, he is a Canadian bred, but by an English stallion, Brave Shot (GB)who raced in England, Italy, Germany, and stood in Ireland before coming to Canada, he is by an American stallion, Bold Bidder. It continues to be even more 'international' with his granddam, Gay Missile's (Sir Gaylord - Missy Baba) family.

The pedigrees are international. True, some lines are better at distance or better at turf, but often the same lines (say the Northern Dancer family) are good at both. In my opinion, what the horse succeeds at is often largely a factor of what he is raised and trained for. In North America, horses usually run young and most races are written 'short', so that is what they do.
There are difference among individuals, but that is not determined by their country of origin.



Congratulations to Noble Houston on his ISR Old NA approval!

[vineyridge]

I also agree with the points made by Fish and rocksolid. One often hears about the difference between US and European TBs, but in fact TBs are extremely 'international'.
If you look at AFR's pedigree for example, he is a Canadian bred, but by an English stallion, Brave Shot (GB)who raced in England, Italy, Germany, and stood in Ireland before coming to Canada, he is by an American stallion, Bold Bidder. It continues to be even more 'international' with his granddam, Gay Missile's (Sir Gaylord - Missy Baba) family.

The pedigrees are international. True, some lines are better at distance or better at turf, but often the same lines (say the Northern Dancer family) are good at both. In my opinion, what the horse succeeds at is often largely a factor of what he is raised and trained for. In North America, horses usually run young and most races are written 'short', so that is what they do. There are difference among individuals, but that is not determined by their country of origin.

I'm not entirely sure I agree with this. Yes, TBs are shipped all over the world for breeding duty. Yes, in many cases the pedigrees are international. Yes, there are some American lines that do well in all sorts of racing. But race breeders do tend to specialize in lines that do well in the sort of racing that is prevalent in their areas and in "nicks" that produce winners.

What is so very important in TB breeding is finding and using appropriate outcrosses wherever they come from.

I'm a fan of horses from places that are "odd" in pedigrees (France, Germany, Australia/NZ, South America and South Africa) just because they have been less influenced by the NA and UK/Irish flavors of the month. For the same reasons, I like steeplechase lines. NA needs to keep importing those lines for outcrosses to keep from losing stamina and bone. But since we don't have long races or turf races, the international import traffic seems to have slowed to a trickle, and stallions from NA and the UK/Ire are being shuttled all over the TB racing world, which makes the gene pool a great deal more homogenous.

[Waterwitch]

German and French bred horses are starting to become popular on the NH scene in the UK, so unfortunately those bloodlines are going to be homogenized before long.

[fish]

I'm not entirely sure I agree with this. Yes, TBs are shipped all over the world for breeding duty. Yes, in many cases the pedigrees are international. Yes, there are some American lines that do well in all sorts of racing. But race breeders do tend to specialize in lines that do well in the sort of racing that is prevalent in their areas and in "nicks" that produce winners.

What is so very important in TB breeding is finding and using appropriate outcrosses wherever they come from.

I'm a fan of horses from places that are "odd" in pedigrees (France, Germany, Australia/NZ, South America and South Africa) just because they have been less influenced by the NA and UK/Irish flavors of the month. For the same reasons, I like steeplechase lines. NA needs to keep importing those lines for outcrosses to keep from losing stamina and bone. But since we don't have long races or turf races, the international import traffic seems to have slowed to a trickle, and stallions from NA and the UK/Ire are being shuttled all over the TB racing world, which makes the gene pool a great deal more homogenous.

There's nothing "odd" about France, Australia/NZ, etc., in TB pedigrees. Some horses from these countries (e.g. Teddy, Herbager (Fr) , Forli (Arg), Horse Chestnut(SAF), etc., etc.) are so common in "American bred" TB's that I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people think of them as "American." It's not "stallions from NA and the UK/Ire [that are] being shuttled all over the racing world," but horses with internationally competitve abilities regardless of country of origin.

As for turf and steeplechase, it's hard to beat the Northern Dancers anywhere.

[grayarabpony]

It is, indeed, a great irony that Americans import TB blood from Europe when the same stuff is so abundant right here at home. Best example of that had to be Mytens: a 100% US bred TB for 3 generations back whose value as a sport horse was (of course) established in Germany :(

So true... I remember seeing an ad for Spectacular Bid on the back of the Chronicle when he was 28... if I'd had a mare at that time I would have bred her to him in a heartbeat.

[sm]

Europeans DO think more in generations than we do, but my reason for preferring EU Thoroughbreds is because - by & large - they have more bone than U.S. TB's. Form follows function, and in Europe, far more TB's run on grass & of course, compete as steeplechasers. Bone needs to be denser for this type racing and because I breed Trakehners - which are known as refiners - while not necessarily looking to ADD bone, neither do I want to subtract it.

- Europeans don't think more in generations: look at the JC registry records -- far superior in capturing results, bloodlines, and genetic tendencies. I think you mean EU has a better sport horse tracking system then our PHR does in America.

- bone thickness is not the same as bone density. I hope you are considering the actual density and not the thickness that is so often considered in WB registries. The TBs that aren't good enough for the dirt -- and not good enough for flat racing breeding sheds -- often make it on the turf or steeplechase.

[vineyridge]

Fish, I understand that the TB is an international animal, but the imports WERE the outcross sires and dams that I'm talking about. Siphon from Brazil is a very good example of a good outcross stallion for modern American breeders because he is sireline Prince Bio, a line that is very, very rare in NA, and his damlines are even more rare. He is the sort of stallion that we need to keep importing just for his outcross qualities.

BTW, although Roven's sire was a USA TB, he himself was born in Argentina from Argentine mares.

And sm, you're very right about the difference between bone density and bone size. Arabians famously have small bone size but extremely good bone density.

[fish]

Fish, I understand that the TB is an international animal, but the imports WERE the outcross sires and dams that I'm talking about. Siphon from Brazil is a very good example of a good outcross stallion for modern American breeders because he is sireline Prince Bio, a line that is very, very rare in NA, and his damlines are even more rare. He is the sort of stallion that we need to keep importing just for his outcross qualities.

BTW, although Roven's sire was a USA TB, he himself was born in Argentina from Argentine mares.

And sm, you're very right about the difference between bone density and bone size. Arabians famously have small bone size but extremely good bone density.

I do not consider Prince Bio rare at all, and generally find TB bloodlines so international in character that it makes much more sense to look at families for outcrosses than "country bred." Shoot, it's easy to imagine 4 generations of an ND line horse coming from 4 different continents, same with Forli (Arg), Hawaii (SAF), etc.

[sm]

And sm, you're very right about the difference between bone density and bone size. Arabians famously have small bone size but extremely good bone density.

The other two things to consider over bone thickness (again I'm talking thickness, not density): comparative size of hooves and size of the horse's barrel (or main body frame that the legs need to support).

The arabs once again are a great example here: large hooves, light frame.

[vineyridge]

Off the top of my head, I can't think of another major TB stallion beside Siphon standing in NA today who is sireline Prince Bio. It's hard enough to find sireline Princequillo stallions. As a sireline, St. Simon seems to exist worldwide only through Prince Rose's sons, Ribot/Rabelais/, and Wild Risk, and they are becoming rarer and rarer. It's a sireline that needs preservation.

I suppose in another fifty or sixty years, we'll be saying the same thing about Northern Dancer.

[ThreeDays]

I think that there would be more use of TB sport stallions here in the US if the right one or two were found or bred.

The problem is that a huge draw of our TB blood here in this country has been tainted with years of popularly bred sprinters who on a large scale have to the wrong 'type' of conformation that lends itself to sport breeding.

Many many sprinters are built downhill and lack bone or soundness.

The downhill build changes everything about how the horse canters and jumps.

I don't think a good TB sire needs to have a ton of bone or 'look' like a WB - but he does need to be of the sporthorse type.

Even a lot of our steeplechase blood has downhill conformation. Very difficult to correct - even with very good mares.

It's very interesting too - to look at some pedigrees and see how so much of a good pedigree can have lots of old blood like Herbager who had a beautiful type - then with a sprinter sire - the resulting offspring 'type' is completely changed. (I'll try to give a good example later).

But I think a good TB stallion needs to possess what potential sport breeders would be looking to gain from breeding to a TB - something their WB mare is missing. Length of leg, lightness of type (not something that resembles a QH and no thick necks), freedom of movement (especially front end) and hopefully some stamina. I don't think the TB sire needs to move like a WB to be considered valuable as a breeding animal. He needs to be represenative and pass along the desirable TB traits we all think of when we envision the ideal TB.

You have to look at conformation - downhill builds are not for sport. And I can't believe how many people look at a TB stallion and say how he is built uphill because their eye looks at the wither - when in actuality he is down. You have to look at where the stifle and fore elbow align.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

IYou have to look at conformation - downhill builds are not for sport. And I can't believe how many people look at a TB stallion and say how he is built uphill because their eye looks at the wither - when in actuality he is down. You have to look at where the stifle and fore elbow align.


Isn't it more point of the shoulder and stifle...not elbow?

[rocksolid]

ThreeDays said if there were one or two available that were the correct type. What about Coconut Grove, Innkeeper, AFR, or Noble Houston? Are they not the right type?

[grayarabpony]

You have to look at conformation - downhill builds are not for sport. And I can't believe how many people look at a TB stallion and say how he is built uphill because their eye looks at the wither - when in actuality he is down. You have to look at where the stifle and fore elbow align.


Many downhill horses have been very successful in sport. Look at Windsome Adante.

Heck, my TB mare was downhill. Yet she could canter beautifully literally on a dime. Her foal (now fully grown) is not downhill.

I think you really need to see what a horse does with his conformation before judging him or her.

[eventerdrew]

Zillionaire, the cremello TB, all the way!!!