OCD??

[hrfponies]

Any experiences with foals with OCD? How much of it do you think is genetics or nutrition? Is it more common in the heavier breeds?

[Kyzteke]

Any experiences with foals with OCD? How much of it do you think is genetics or nutrition? Is it more common in the heavier breeds?

Do a Google search -- there is alot of info out there, but still alot unknown. Visit the American Hanoverian Society site; they have an article on the extensive study that was done in Germany on OCD.

There is a definite inheritability factor, but apparently so much has to do with nutrition and management. And so, SO much is simply not known.

[BBowen]

The Chronicle did an article on OCDs. Can't remember if it was the Pony Breeding issue or the Annual Stallion issue (got them both the same day - UGH).

[Equinoxfox]

I recently had a WB/TB cross and he had OCD. Also his brother had it, the father also had it . SO I do think it is in the genes. There is a great article in The Chronicle the Stallion Issue. it is wonderful read and very educational . Good Luck. I had to unload mine. did not want to do the surgery and waste the time. Just moved on. Got my fingers crossed.:eek:

[cac182]

The Chronicle did an article on OCDs. Can't remember if it was the Pony Breeding issue or the Annual Stallion issue (got them both the same day - UGH).

Yes, in the recent stallion issue

[Mozart]

I almost bought a mare (as a riding horse) that turned out to have OCD (hocks) upon pre-purchase digital X rays. I think my vet suspected it before the X ray, there was a very momentary "did I see that or not" off moment post flexion.

That particular mare was a WB/TB cross, not heavy, but very tall and leggy. I have known several of her relatives, no other incidence that I know of.

Researchers have identified a number of risk factors and they do include heredity, trauma, inadequte nutrition and rapid or uneven growth rate.

[DennisM]

http://www.hanoverian.org/downloads/articles.shtml --> This link has a good article on one of the more complete studies of OCD, discussing risk factors, etc.

[Centuree]

Interesting, I didn't know that OCD in the fetlock joints was common among foals. I always thought you wouldn't find it there at such a young age. Thanks for the article link!

[Indy-lou]

In my humble opinion...like all things I think the incidence of OCD is multifactorial: there is the nature (genetic) and the nurture (environmental) together they equal 100%. The distribution of percentage will vary among individuals. In some horses we will see more of the nature and some more of the environmental. What does this mean? Try to breed away from the high incidence (nature) and be sure to manage your horses against (environmental). So, if there is a genetic line with inherent tendancies towards OCD, try to avoid those. If you breed into those lines for their other outstanding other qualities, be sure that your management includes mitigating against the environmental factors. We know that nutrition plays a role. Again, it is part of the 100%, but in each individual horse the percentage will be different: 80% vs 20%? 30% vs 70%? Don't overfeed carbohydrates and sugar. Forget "sweet feed". Make sure your youngsters have plenty of turn out 24/7, preferably. Horses are moving creatures and need to move throughout the day, rather than short periods of intense exertion. Don't keep your young horses in stalls exclusively.Don't force exercise periods. Balance your minerals and vitamin availability. We know what the balance of calcium to phosphorus should be. Balance is the key to pretty much everything. Don't push your babies either through feed or exercise. Don't feed exclusively afalfa, but offer mixed grass hays with alfalfa as a supplement for extra protein and calcium if needed. Pay for the analysis of your hay if you use a consistent source and know what you are feeding. Supplement accordingly. Guessing will cost you more than you can afford. It's all common sense, but the common aspect of the "sense" is sometimes lost. Oh and bedding! Even if your horses are "turned out" they need a soft and DRY place to bed. We provide straw bedding to all our horses and I believe having a soft/dry place to rest makes a difference on wear and tear of joints. Did you know that horses have a need for REM sleep as do we humans? They can go much longer periods of time without it, but eventually without REM sleep they suffer the same ill effects as humans do. And in order to get REM sleep they need to lie down, even if they able to otherwise "sleep" standing. They won't do that without a dry and soft place to bed, so make sure your horses have that. Even cattle feeders have learned the benefits of bedding cattle even in feedlot settings: less stress equals greater weight gains. Makes sense for all living creatures.

[DressageOPhobia]

OCD is a Multicausational malady,,,like cancer. What causes cancer? Is it genetic? Environmental?
Same issue with OCD. It is a tricky thing to evaluate in young horses, but in the end you need to listen to your equine medical expert and do the right thing for the horse.

Equinoxfox wrote
"I had to unload mine. did not want to do the surgery and waste the time."

That makes no sense to me, how do you unload a horse with OCD? I cannot understand how that is responsible to the next buyer? to the horse?

[YankeeLawyer]

I had to unload mine. did not want to do the surgery and waste the time. Just moved on. Got my fingers crossed.:eek:

Obviously you haven't described the extent to which this horse's issue was serious but frequently OCDs are not that big of a deal and if the horse is very young can even resolve themselves. Perhaps you wrote this post in haste but I would hate to think owners view their horses as so disposable. It is kind of sickening, actually.

[Home Again Farm]

Good post, Indy-lou.

[Kyzteke]

Obviously you haven't described the extent to which this horse's issue was serious but frequently OCDs are not that big of a deal and if the horse is very young can even resolve themselves. Perhaps you wrote this post in haste but I would hate to think owners view their horses as so disposable. It is kind of sickening, actually.

While this isn't something I would advocate, it is my understanding the OCD surgery on young standardbreds & TBs (yearlings) was very, very common -- maybe still be. Now the bigger auctions insist on full disclosure of these types of surgery, but I think that may be more because of the inheritability than the value of the horse as a performance animal.

My understanding is that if the surgery is done when the horse is young, before real work starts, the outcome for total soundness is excellent.

And, while there is so much we don't know, the most extensive studies on OCD that I am aware of indicates SOME genetic influence, but far more is management issues -- mainly overfeeding, mineral imbalance and not allowing the foal adequate turn-out.

I see it much like diabetes or heart disease. You may have gotten the propensity for the "disease" from your parents, but if you manage yourself carefully, you can greatly lessen the risk of the condition manifesting itself.

As for the post Yankee Lawyer referred to -- well, just think if her horse needed colic surgery!

[DressageOPhobia]

OCD is a serious malady. OCD surgery is serious and not all youngsters who get the surgery go on to be useful. I know first hand.

[Kyzteke]

OCD is a serious malady. OCD surgery is serious and not all youngsters who get the surgery go on to be useful. I know first hand.

No one is saying it isn't. But the vast majority of YOUNG horses that I know who have had surgery DO go on to become useful.

What I'm saying is it's not a death sentence by any means and very often the horses go on to be very successful athletes.

[YankeeLawyer]

OCD is a serious malady. OCD surgery is serious and not all youngsters who get the surgery go on to be useful. I know first hand.

It is not necessarily serious AT ALL. I have firsthand experience as well, fortunately of the positive variety. I also witnessed a vet kill an exceptional six-figure young horse (the actual price paid for the horse) by insisting on removing an asymptomatic tiny chip that was not affecting the joint - the horse died from complications related to the surgery. The ONLY reason the owner was talked into the surgery was due to hysteria surrounding the issue of OCDs. Even top horses are not necessarily perfect. If people want perfect they should take up motocross instead.

[LisaO]

I agree with Yankee Lawyer. OCD may or may not affect a horse's career. Location, location, location...and, of course, severity. In a perfect world, no horses would have any radiographic findings ever. However, our imagery is spectacular (and now we see the most minute lesions), yet we are still not that great at predicting soundness over time. I try to balance radiographic findings with common sense. Has the horse been in work? How intense? How long? Any history of lameness? Flexions OK? Location of lesions? I'd be concerned if the lesion were on an articulating joint surface. In fact, I owned one with just such an OCD and I did opt to have it removed. Horse went on to do just fine for years. Sometimes the risk is warranted - no matter what the pre-purchase 'issue'. I defied 4 vets (I'm not kidding - 4 - including my husband) to buy a young filly who had a horrible fall as a weanling and had a brain injury. She came to me uncoordinated and with a marked head tilt, yet I wanted her bloodlines. She is now absolutely wonderful and my very favorite (and talented) mare to ride. I am so happy I took the risk! Buying horse's is always a personal decision. We use the experts to help us gather and evaluate data, but ultimately the decision is ours. I always ask myself what the worst case scenario is and factor that in as well. In the case of OCD - am I willing to have the surgery done if it's needed on down the line? In the case of my mare - am I willing to have an unrideable broodmare? There's no perfect horse out there, despite what many buyers seem to think.

[Samotis]

If you do enough research you can find out that there are some stallions out there that pass on OCD to their foals. As there are some mares that pass it on. I really do think it has a lot to do with nutrition though.

I have a friend that has a 4 year old that had severe shoulder OCD as a weanling and they did some very experimental surgery on her and she is now showing in the jumpers! She has some stiff days, but for the most part is perfectly suitable to go out and be a show horse. OCD is not a death sentence!

I have a 10 month old colt that is a TB/WB cross. His father was very big and his mother is super leggy so I did worry about the OCD issue. I have been very careful with the mothers diet as well as his diet now and he has not had any problems. He has had some huge growth spurts and never had any issues.

[Tiki]

There are also a lot of foals that seem to show OCD type lesions as part of development. If you x-ray them at 6 months and see 'lesions' and operate in the absence of lameness, I think you are taking a big risk. Many times, it has been shown, these 'lesions' will be gone by the time they are 2 or 3 years old.

You will also find small chips at times that are completely encapsulated in muscle, nowhere near a joint, and it can be a huge mistake to try to remove these. They will never move and you can do much more harm than good by proceeding with surgery re the horse Yankee Lawyer mentioned and one I know of who had one of these harmless chips removed, had to have a couple of more surgeries to repair damage done by the surgery, and now has to live on joint supplements.

This is also NOT a WB disease. It is very prevalent in STB's in this country.

[grayarabpony]

It is not necessarily serious AT ALL. I have firsthand experience as well, fortunately of the positive variety. I also witnessed a vet kill an exceptional six-figure young horse (the actual price paid for the horse) by insisting on removing an asymptomatic tiny chip that was not affecting the joint - the horse died from complications related to the surgery. The ONLY reason the owner was talked into the surgery was due to hysteria surrounding the issue of OCDs. Even top horses are not necessarily perfect. If people want perfect they should take up motocross instead.

OCD can be serious. Hock OCD is described in the AHA link as 40% heritable.

Horses with OCD, especially stallions since even the unpopular stallions end up having more offspring than mares, should not be used as breeding stock.

I agree, no horse is perfect. But who wants a horse that may very well need surgery to be serviceable and will probably get arthritis earlier than he otherwise would have.

[Melyni]

OCD is both, the tendency is inherited and the environment provides the trigger.
It can e devastating and irrelevant depending on just where it is and to what extent.

Too much sugar and starch in the diet, along with a genetic predisposition and you get the lesions.
They don't always cause problems, but sometimes they are career ending.

I'd have foals with chips that were removed with never a problema nd foals that had problems perennially after that. Though in all fairness those babies were yearsa go before we understood the condition.

I don't see so much of it now, cos I feed them much better.
MW