Conformation critique ... please? You know you love it - UPDATE 7/28/10 :-)

[kates93]

I know how popular the conformation critiques are, but am just so darn curious to hear what a "better eye than I" thinks. Plus, I figured there weren't 1,405,607 confo critiques in the current threads, so it has to be a good time ... right? :D

I have been working hard to improve my conformational abilities so I have some thoughts but would like to know if they're correct or close at least. I won't tell you what they are so as not to prejudice anyone :)

She is a 16.2 2004 Hano/TB. Expect her to grow another inch or so. Her abilities will dictate her discipline, but am hoping it will be jumping of some kind or other. I would die and go to heaven if she could do okay in hunters, but if not, no biggie.

right (http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l153/kesmith80/Gemma/DSC_0044.jpg)

left (http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l153/kesmith80/Gemma/DSC_0056.jpg)

Many thanks in advance!!

[eqrider1234]

cutie!!

hmm i like her front end but she seems to be built a little downhill at least in the second picture, but she may even out since she is still growing. The only real other thing i could be picky about is that her croup seems a little high and her butt seems a little slopey, but thats just me being picky. she is really cute though and im sure youll have a lot of fun with her!!

[jetsetter]

she is pretty good looking!

The only thing that really jumps out at me would be her back. Looks a little long, the ratio doesn't look quite right. I would also agree with the previous poster in saying that the slope of her croup is a little shallow, but some people would consider that a good "jumping hump" or a bad thing as in she will have a killer rodeo buck! haha :yes:

Either way, cute horse!:D

[Go Fish]

I like her...she could be set up a bit better so we could get a more accurate view of her conformation and she looks like she could use a bit more weight. Looks a little weak in the stifle and gaskin, but she's young and this could improve with age. She is a bit long in the loin, but I don't think this will hurt her if you choose a jumping career. She's only three...she'll change and fill out in the next year or so. I certainly think she's attractive enough to do the hunters if she has the movement, stride and jump. Good luck with her.

[Go Fish]

Also wanted to include that I don't think she's downhill at all. She's a bit stretched out in the photo. Hunters need to be uphill, but not to the degree that a jumper or dressage horse has to be.

[jetsetter]

Also wanted to include that I don't think she's downhill at all. She's a bit stretched out in the photo. Hunters need to be uphill, but not to the degree that a jumper or dressage horse has to be.
i agree, forgot to mention that

[Go Fish]

i agree, forgot to mention that

Jetsetter...I love your tag...so true!!!!

[jetsetter]

haha thanks!!! :)

[kellyb]

I really like her. I was searching for something obvious to point out but I can't find anything. She has a nice topline, I like her hindquarters, shoulder, nice legs, and a cute face to boot.

[kates93]

Hey Go Fish--good eye. I didn't give the back story but probably should have. This was a quasi rescue for me, I got her when she was probably 500 lbs underweight and these photos were taken about 6 weeks later (end of October). I found her on craigslist and paid peanuts for her. So she'd put on a lot of weight by then but has put on even more now (and muscle as well).

Here's right after I got her. (http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l153/kesmith80/Gemma/DSC_0002-1.jpg)

Question about her sloped butt--is that affected by her weight/muscle level, or is it definitely a conformational thing?

Thanks for all the comments!

[Philosopher]

Looks like her pasterns are a bit long, but overall quite well put together.

[Go Fish]

Hey Go Fish--good eye. I didn't give the back story but probably should have. This was a quasi rescue for me, I got her when she was probably 500 lbs underweight and these photos were taken about 6 weeks later (end of October). I found her on craigslist and paid peanuts for her. So she'd put on a lot of weight by then but has put on even more now (and muscle as well).

Here's right after I got her. (http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l153/kesmith80/Gemma/DSC_0002-1.jpg)

Question about her sloped butt--is that affected by her weight/muscle level, or is it definitely a conformational thing?

Thanks for all the comments!

OMG - she doesn't even look like the same horse now! Congratulations on YOUR eye! Don't worry about her butt...there are various schools of thought on this, some like it (horse steps underneath better), some positively hate it. One of the best hunters I ever had had a "sloped" butt. Didn't affect her stride or jump at all and she won the hack nearly every time out.

[MGA828]

Question about her sloped butt--is that affected by her weight/muscle level, or is it definitely a conformational thing?

Thanks for all the comments!

I first want to say she is very cute!!! Next, I cannot say if the butt is definitely a conformation flaw, but I can say this ... You said she is 4 years old right? One of my horses was 4 when I got him and he had the same type of butt you mare has, he was also very narrow and looked just like a skinny TB. He is actually a QH - after I got him we put the weight back on him which made him look a lot better. I got him in the winter and by the summer time he was completely filled out - he has the QH chest, neck, and body. His butt was big like a QH and that slope was completely gone. He was just a late bloomer.

It is very possible that your horse be like mine also. At 4 she is not done growing, so she may even fill out more then that. More muscle and weight will also add some more to her. My guess it is that as she grows more and gets more muscle it will probably not be there anymore like it wasn't with my guy, but that is just my opinion.

[Hauwse]

First I would like to qualify my comments by saying that perfect conformation, or flawed conformation do not equate outstanding ability or lack of ability, respectively, except for in the cases of conformation flaws that exclude a horse from being capable of performing a specific job.

You should think of conformation as one element of evaluation with a focus primarily on the horse’s soundness, and longevity as it relates to a specific discipline.

On the surface I see absolutely no reason why this mare could not do the hunter route. Her ultimate success however will only be revealed through further evaluation of her movement and her form over fences, as the hunter discipline is highly subjective.

As for her conformation there are a few things that jump out at me, and again let me qualify anything I say as the how, and where of standing a horse up can make a difference.

First thing I see, from a purely conformation perspective, is that her pastern angle is a little more than you would like. You would like to be able to draw a line from the back of her hoof straight through the middle of the cannon bone.

Related to the above her there is a slight deviation in her hoof angle and her pastern angle. The angle of her hoof should be identical to that of her pasterns.

It is not bad but a conformation judge might say that she is a little back at the knee. In these pictures it is a little hard to tell, I think because she is standing in deeper footing, but any angle from the knee or slightly below of the cannon bone back is a indication of being calf-kneed.

She has a nice big shoulder, however in one picture her humerus seems to have very little angle, this is not a conformation flaw, but a conformation difference, one that you usually do not see in a Warm Blood, they generally tend to have a more upright humerus. Sometimes this can affect the horse’s ability to use their shoulder, or to pull their forearms up to vertical or past vertical over a fence.

I love her neck, and the way it ties into her shoulder. She has a nice clean throatlatch, and very nice kind eye (which says a lot to me).

She is a little longer in the back, and may be a little weak in the loin area at the lumbosacral joint, as she seems a little long in the loin and a little short in the rump, possibly because the joint is a little too far back. It is harder to tell from the side, it helps if you can get above them to see the whole loin triangle.

She may also be a little disproportionate in her hind legs, her leg being longer from the stifle to the point of the hock than it is from the point of the hock to the ground. I did not actually measure it but it appears that way, which could again may be affected by the way she is standing, but it is possibly confirmed by her being a little straight behind as well, as all these things tie in.

Over all I think she is a nice looking mare though, and you are to be commended for the job you have done getting her up to weight and happy.

Again, as I said before, conformation is only part of the equation and nothing I see in any way, shape or form is an indication that she is not suitable for any discipline, or that she will not excel at any or all disciplines.

Some of my best horses had conformation issues that did not hinder their ability to excel in anyway, and some of the nicest conformed horses I have ever seen could not jump a stick to save their life.

Best of luck, I would love to see more of your mare as you progress through development.

[findeight]

Question about her sloped butt--is that affected by her weight/muscle level, or is it definitely a conformational thing?


Conformational...she is what they call goose rumped created by a short and steep (open) hip angle. That's why she looks a little set out behind and lacks a little in the gaskin, adds length to her back and weakens the loin...it's a package deal. Matches the shoulder angle as well...BUT that is not a bad thing, everything needs to match angle wise on both ends and she does.

Overall she is balanced within herself (everything matches) and an attractive type that has nothing showing here that would lead to unsoundness. With the open angles she may lack a little in the step department but that may not be much of an issue depending on what you want to do with her.

I am not seeing downhill here from croup to withers but do see the neck a little heavy at the base and tied in a little lower then ideal. Watch her weight, she looks like she will tend to the air fern type if you are not careful.

I like her and would try her, none are perfect and these things do not bother me depending on actual performance.

Nice job.

[jetsmom]

I like her. I think she looks better conformationally than a lot of the mare's pics that are posted on the breeding forum as breeding prospects.

[kates93]

Thanks for all the comments! I appreciate it very much--it is quite educational for me to hear on her especially (although I look at all the conformation threads), because this is one horse that I have studied and studied trying to figure her conformation out :)

I did think she was a bit long through the back and maybe upright in the shoulder, but all of the stuff about matching angles and the package things make a lot of sense to me, and really helped put her conformation in perspective.

For the record, here she is moving under saddle (http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=Tq5CIBbctEI). This was the first time the trainer asked her to canter under saddle, about 2 weeks into her under saddle work (Did I mention she was totally untrained when I bought her, too? Yeah, changed that first off.). She still has balance issues but is getting more balanced every day.

I should qualify, too, when I say it would be nice if I could show her in the hunters, the most I would do is local A/B even C shows (pacific northwest, the truly hardcore around here do the CA/BC circuits--I have to work at my "real job" too much to be the truly hardcore). I do know that the more important question here is how she jumps ... but she is just starting to work over poles and cavaletti and I have not free jumped her yet, so that part is still the big x factor.

findeight--In the beginning I was worried she would be a hard keeper because she was so thin when I got her. But now, she has put on weight so quickly that I tend to agree with you, I think she might actually be an air fern type--which makes me particularly sad that she was so thin (and that was on a no exercise diet).

Hauwse--It is always interesting to me when a person can spot a "kind eye" from a picture. The main reason I did take her is because she is about the sweetest mare I've ever met. She loves people (particularly me, I think she associates me with a sudden increase in food in her life), loves to be petted and scratched and thinks getting worked is fun because someone is paying attention to her. She is not spooky and will generally look to "her people" first before deciding if something is scary--if the people are not reacting, she does not react. I am just totally in love with her temperament above all.

Thanks for all the compliments re how she has changed ... it has made me really happy to watch her progress.

One last question. I've been taking pictures about every 6 weeks or so to track her body changes, etc., which means it's about time for another set of photos. How can I set her up to allow for the most accurate appraisal? Thanks.

[kates93]

I like her. I think she looks better conformationally than a lot of the mare's pics that are posted on the breeding forum as breeding prospects.

That made me giggle :lol:

[findeight]

I like her. I think she looks better conformationally than a lot of the mare's pics that are posted on the breeding forum as breeding prospects.

Boy, ain't that the truth. This one seems to have some quality to her as well as not being all beat up around the joints.

It's all pluses and minuses. This one is faulty, as are they all, but I could probably live with it as don't need to jump 3'6' and get down a 14' line and don't do level 4+ Jumpers.

Plus the price was right and owner is flexible about goals over time...and she has this rescue FAT at, what, 4 months?

Would like to see another picture in about 6 months and see if good farrier care and some regular work as well as growth helps to minimize some of what has been noted. It won't go away, mind you, but don't see it as tragic.

[kates93]

Boy, ain't that the truth. This one seems to have some quality to her as well as not being all beat up around the joints.

It's all pluses and minuses. This one is faulty, as are they all, but I could probably live with it as don't need to jump 3'6' and get down a 14' line and don't do level 4+ Jumpers.

Plus the price was right and owner is flexible about goals over time...and she has this rescue FAT at, what, 4 months?

Would like to see another picture in about 6 months and see if good farrier care and some regular work as well as growth helps to minimize some of what has been noted. It won't go away, mind you, but don't see it as tragic.


My personal long-term goal for the hunters is the AAs. I'm a big fat weeny and 3ft forever is the place for me! (that is, if my trainers ever release me into that ring ... I haven't made it out of pre-adults yet)

So, any potential goals for the mare are tailored to mine, and it's her temperament that will really be the deal breaker, if she remains as calm and level-headed over time, I will keep her and find a discipline for her.

[findeight]

Listen, I have no life as have been on call the past few days. Don't dare start anything up like the washer or that phone will ring so I sit and surf.

So, anyway, I watched the vid of her and, have to say, she is quite pleasant and a decent mover. Believe she will relax and get a nice long and low way of going in front...but she is probably never going to be gifted in the step department. Most that move halfway decently can organize themselves in a proper jump and she ought to suit for what you state.

[kates93]

Listen, I have no life as have been on call the past few days. Don't dare start anything up like the washer or that phone will ring so I sit and surf.

So, anyway, I watched the vid of her and, have to say, she is quite pleasant and a decent mover. Believe she will relax and get a nice long and low way of going in front...but she is probably never going to be gifted in the step department. Most that move halfway decently can organize themselves in a proper jump and she ought to suit for what you state.

Hey I don't care what the reason is, you are making my day here :)

Not bad for the peanuts I exchanged her for!

Now I need to find an A-1 farrier. I am new to horse ownership in this area (Portland, ORish) and have been using someone who is okay, but not great.

[ExJumper]

Kates, I can't believe I didn't mention this before, but she is really looking great! Under saddle I didn't really think about how skinny she was when you found her, but looking at the before and after pictures, I can't BELIEVE how much she has filled out and how lovely she looks just standing there as naked as the day she was born (as my grandmother would say).

She's lucky to have you :)

[kates93]

Kates, I can't believe I didn't mention this before, but she is really looking great! Under saddle I didn't really think about how skinny she was when you found her, but looking at the before and after pictures, I can't BELIEVE how much she has filled out and how lovely she looks just standing there as naked as the day she was born (as my grandmother would say).

She's lucky to have you :)

Thanks. Appreciate that :)

[Hauwse]

I am impressed with her movement and her attitude.

Sometimes you can see a horse moving while they are standing still, and apparently you have one. Her movement and attitude are just what I would have anticipated.

I think I may have mentioned it before; sometimes horses understand their minor conformation flaws and learn how to work with them. She looks like she knows herself and has figured out the best way to deal with them efficiently, which speaks to her mind and her athletic ability, and goes a long way to predicting how she will deal with fences.

I would anticipate that at 3' and a little more she would be nice and “typey” over her fences, maybe not “scopey”, but would have no problem handling 3'- 3'6" and she would probably lope around on the buckle like the hunters of yester year.

Whatever your doing, keep doing it, take your time and let her grow into herself, and you may end up with the perfect horse for you.

I love to see horse progress through development, if you can keep us updated.

Best of luck!

[kates93]

Thank you!!

And I will certainly do my best to provide occasional updates as she develops :)

I really appreciate all the thoughtful comments I have gotten on this thread.

[kates93]

I wish I could edit the title to reflect the new photos, but alas, I am not that COTH savvy.

Anyway, just wanted to provide my super helpful critiquers with new shots. It's been about 6 months since the last ones and I wanted to make good on my promise to provide the occasional updates on how she develops.

Conformation (http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l153/kesmith80/Gemma/DSC_0028.jpg)

Under saddle (http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l153/kesmith80/Gemma/DSC_0048.jpg)(and that's with me, not trainer! yep I am riding her regularly now)

[Jealoushe]

I wish I could edit the title to reflect the new photos, but alas, I am not that COTH savvy.

Anyway, just wanted to provide my super helpful critiquers with new shots. It's been about 6 months since the last ones and I wanted to make good on my promise to provide the occasional updates on how she develops.

Conformation (http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l153/kesmith80/Gemma/DSC_0028.jpg)

Under saddle (http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l153/kesmith80/Gemma/DSC_0048.jpg)(and that's with me, not trainer! yep I am riding her regularly now)

Very nice!

[kellyb]

Awww, she looks really nice!

[Czar]

Missed the first thread but...wow! I like her a lot - sure, she may have a *slightly* sloping hind end but I don't think it takes away too much from the overall picture.

I'm not super picky on conformation unless it's a glaring fault (like crooked front legs or ewe necked)...a little long in the back, sloped pasterns, or longer cannons don't make me run away. I only ever look for hunter prospects however & at 3ft-3'6", a horse certainly doesn't need to have perfect conformation (if such a thing does exist) to be useable or even exemplary.

I love the fact that you found her for a steal & made her up - good luck with her!

BTW, the only conformation fault that I *always* look for that is not super obvious is how close they stand front/back. I've known a few horses that traveled close behind & were HARD to get changes on as they would hit themselves & swap and a few that traveled close in front & developed bone chips from hitting themselves.

[SkipHiLad4me]

You've done a great job with her and she is a very attractive mare :yes: Congrats on your find!

[Mayaty02]

wow does she look gorgeous now! love the shiny dappley coat (very hard to get on a chestnut!) You look great on her, congrats on a wonderful find!

[Maya01]

The only bad things I could say about her is that she looks a little too long and weak in the behind for my taste, but I really big buts :lol: And that she needs to put on more weight.

She has very correct legs, great pastern angles. A good sloping shoulder, not the best topline, but for hunter it works well and nice eye, but a slightly plain head.

Overall she would do really well in the hunter ring! All she needs now is an overly sensible temperament and slightly dull mind :lol:

[kates93]

Thanks, guys. I've had her about 7 1/2 months now and am just amazed by the changes in her. She is pretty sensible, although there is still a lot she hasn't seen in life ... so I guess we'll just see.

[kates93]

Time for another little update ...

After we putzed around for the summer, I moved her to a h/j trainer on September 1st. She has been doing very well and is learning quickly there. Here's a little video (http://www.youtube.com/user/kesmith80#p/a/u/1/AwWwPALeeqE), she'd been in training for about 3 weeks at that point and this is about her 5th-6th time jumping u/s. Since this time, she's moved on to cantering courses of about this height. Enjoy!

[dani0303]

She looks wonderful! I think she could easily make an A/A hunter. She looks utterly unimpressed by those little fences :lol:

[JinxyFish313]

She looks great :) Seems happy to work, quite handy, pretty quiet and lovely to look at it. Congratulations on a great find and a good program. I think she'll do just fine in the AA's. What do you have in her mouth? I feel like your trainer's noisy hands at the trot are distracting her. She seemed much softer in the previous video. That went away at the canter though so maybe I'm seeing things.

[kates93]

Just a little update ...

Photo from our last horse show (AA, the Country Classic). (http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l153/kesmith80/Gemma/countryclassicphotobig.jpg)

Thought the kind souls that commented the first time might enjoy seeing this.

Also, she is currently #2 (points) in the Baby Greens ... went Reserve Champion at one show, but definitely still working on consistency issues ... I guess she IS a baby. She tends to either win or really not win. ha. Go big or go home. Well, and then we face the opposite issue - she sometimes gets too chill and relaxed and then canters over the 2'6 jumps instead of properly "jumping" then ... but that doesn't bother me. The Baby Greens is not the ultimate goal here :)

[Czar]

Oh I love her...again :lol: - good luck & enjoy!

[magicteetango]

Oh my gosh! I love her again too! She is just gorgeous!

[findeight]

Thanks for the update. So much of the time people just drop off the face of the earth after asking for advice and critique.

Patience my dear. You may be in the Baby Greens but look where you are showing-way ahead of most. Enjoy her.

So...when are you planning to take on the Adults? Next year? It's 6". Same courses.

[kates93]

Thanks for the update. So much of the time people just drop off the face of the earth after asking for advice and critique.

Patience my dear. You may be in the Baby Greens but look where you are showing-way ahead of most. Enjoy her.

So...when are you planning to take on the Adults? Next year? It's 6". Same courses.

I love reading other people's updates, so I will keep updating this thread. I am particularly grateful to the COTH community as it was many of these comments that made me think "she just might be a hunter ..."

She is showing with my trainer in the Baby Greens - I am showing her in the Long Stirrup! :D So the plan is next year she will do Pre Greens with my trainer ... not sure what I will do, as trainer thinks I should move up to Pre Adult for the rest of this summer - so depending on how that and off season goes, Pre Adults or Adults next summer. She is actually easier to jump a little higher because she is very smooth and she pays more attention as the jumps go up (i.e. gets over her "I don't need YOU!" mindset). I am very happy with her - perhaps I didn't communicate that fully - and I know that her "issues" such as they are will continue to iron out with more miles ... that is part of owning a baby (and particularly a baby mare!).

We have all (trainer, horse, me) been working very hard since last fall, and it feels like it is starting to pay off. Oh, I also want to iron out our lead change issues before we do any significant moving up - by the end of the last show we were probably at 90% ...

And thank you for the compliments, all! I am very pleased with her.