Narrowing a Stallion List.

[Ajierene]

OK, I am looking for a stallion to breed my mare to this spring/summer. Right now I am out of country, but I want a list of about 10 stallions to look at in my area (near Fair Hill, MD - within say a 7 hour drive).

The computers I can use here do not allow me to use photobucket or any other kind of photosharing tools, as far as I can tell so far. I know that makes giving the best opinion harder, but if you can do what you can, I would appreciate it.

My mare is a Thoroughbred, but has been confused with being a Quarter horse and Standardbred, on separate occasions. She has a generally good confirmation, though her legs below the hock leave a bit to be desired. My trainer has also mentioned "if we could just remove one Vertabra, her back would be the perfect length". She has horrible 'typical thoroughbred feet'. Her front feet are flat, where she needs shoes constantly, but her walls are thin so shoes year round would kill her feet and she has go barefoot for a while every year so her hoof can 'heal'. She is also rather flighty/spooky/not liking change.

What I am looking for in a stallion/ future foal:

I am looking for a Warmblood type.
I event and my mare is about a Training level horse. We do Novice right now. I am not looking for an Olympic level horse, just one with a bit more talent than mine.

A more brave horse (she is only confident over a jump if I am confident over a jump...)

MUCH BETTER FEET!

Calmer/more willing temperment.

A touch bigger wouldn't be a problem, but my mare is a good size for me at 15.2HH. Up to 16HH I wouldn't mind, but I am small and don't want a stepladder to get on my horse. I don't really want smaller thatn 15.2HH, either.

A bit of a shorter back would be a good thing also.

I understand all the variables that go into breeding, but the above is my 'wish list'.

The following is a list I have compiled so far. I am looking to see if anyone has any information/experience with these stallions that would help me narrow my list.

Alcazam
Broadway
C Waterford - www.hcbreeding.com
Costner - www.mousehousefarm.com
Cottage Boy
Cottage’s Courageous
Romancer
Sneak Preview

Danish Warmbloods

Carry on F. Damgaard - http://www.danishwarmblood.org/stallions/stallion-text/carry-on-f-damgaard-dvh-948
Languster Prydsholm - http://www.danishwarmblood.org/stallions/stallion-text/languster-prydsholm


From the Chronicle of the Horse Stallion List

Magical - http://chronofhorse.com/index.php?cat=41411033620461&ShowStallion_ID=1183107072588564
Pallas Digion - http://chronofhorse.com/index.php?cat=41411033620461&ShowStallion_ID=1181802054309616
Carrig View - http://chronofhorse.com/index.php?cat=41411033620461&ShowStallion_ID=1181802054241892
Rapture R - http://chronofhorse.com/index.php?cat=41411033620461&ShowStallion_ID=1180911050557184

Hanovarians:

Adonis
Anhaltiner - http://www.somedaysoonfarm.com/pages/anhalt.html
Davignport - http://www.hphanoverians.com/stallions.php
De Laurentis - http://www.hphanoverians.com/stallions.php
Lehnsritter
Letkiss - http://www.hiltonfarm.com/Letkiss.htm
Liberty Gold - http://www.hiltonfarm.com/LibertyGold.htm
Loerke - http://www.somedaysoonfarm.com/pages/weltbek.html
Nocturno - http://www.somedaysoonfarm.com/pages/weltbek.html
Portofino - http://www.hiltonfarm.com/Portofino.htm
Regazzoni
Rienzi - http://www.marefield.com/index.cfm?action=stallions_individual&stallion_ID=6
Special Memories - http://www.touchstonevalleyfarm.com/
Wamberto - http://www.hasslerdressage.com/stallions/wamberto1.html
Welfenkonig II - http://www.triadfarm.com/
Weltbekannt - http://www.somedaysoonfarm.com/pages/weltbek.html
Fielding - http://www.autumnhillfarm.com

I am working on contacting the owners, but would like any other information people have.

[STF]

Alcazam



That is our stallion son and should produce the movement and the type your looking for. Puerto D'Azur def. has proven to pass that ability on. Kathy Stover has some very VERY nice foals from him that really impressed me. Ask her to see pics of her coming 3 yr old.

[CBoylen]

I adore Magical, but the ones I know would probably not event well. I would also not breed him to a particularly flighty mare.

[Cinnybren]

He's not on your list, but what about Cicera's Icewater? He's 16.3 so may be bigger than you are looking for, however I don't know how he produces. He has also evented successfully. Anyway, just a thought. ;)

http://www.westwiththewind.com/cicerasicewater.html

[not again]

We aren't very far from Fair Hill and have produced quite a few good event horses. Sally Cousins was here today (She lives next door) looking at a couple of our homebreds. You can PM for more info. We have three stallions and frozen semen from several others. All proven event lines.

[Ajierene]

Thanks for the input so far everyone. I crossed Magical off my list and put Alcazam to the top. I am sending you a PM not again - you might not get it right away....this internet has been rather wonky lately.

BNH - yeah, 16.3 might be a bit big. I may look at his lines, though generally I have seen that the bigger stallions have even bigger stallions in their lineage, which would equal 'big' genes.

[cheekyhorse]

He is not in your area, but my stallion Pacific conforms to all of the particulars you are looking for. :)

[Fred]

He is not on your list, but what about Denny's Formula One?
The Irish horses have a good reputation for good feet too.
Another Irish horse, an RID, is owned by some friends of mine and he is lovely: Steeped in Luck. He is a very handsome horse, wonderful temperament, winning in dressage, and has excellent feet and legs.
Both worth adding to your list!

good luck!

[Oakstable]

All those stallions are within 7 hours of you?

Wow.

[Sunnydays]

Look at Don Principe. Great temperament, great success in pewrformance, and he passes it on to his offspring.
He is in NC I believe (Hano: Donnerhall / Prince Thatch xx)

[Ajierene]

All those stallions are within 7 hours of you?

Wow.

HA! Roughly, yeah. I went as south as NC, Northern most is New York. Western most is Ohio (about 9 hours, but only one in Ohio).

I was a bit surprised myself and am a bit overwhelmed. You would think sticking to only horses within a few states away would really cut down my list, but NO, I have to live in 'big Name Mecca'. Devon is close to my house, Fair Hill International, Harrisburg has a bit hunter show, don't they? Somewhere in PA, within an hour drive. Gladstone, NJ - about two hours from my house. Warrenton, about 4 hours. It is a blessing and a curse...

Cheekyhorse - I checked out Pacifico...hmm...
1-Trakehner (favorite breed)
2-dark (preferred color, he's close in color to my mare, which is how this color ended up being my preferred color)
3-right height

Assuming the right temperment - VERY tempting. I will have to run him by my trainer.

I will look at Formula One and Don Principio also. I did narrow the list a bit, so putting a few new ones on the list isn't as scary as before - but keep in mind...NARROWING LIST!

In seriousness, thanks for the help. It is hard to judge from a picture and description on a website/e-mail. Personal experience/knowledge is always helpful.

[cheekyhorse]

About Pacific's temperment..... he's VERY quiet. VERY VERY quiet. Anyone from this area that has met him has said the same thing. Outstanding temperment for a 5 year old stallion (and a trakehner at that!). I myself am an amateur rider and I started this horse under saddle myself and have done all of his training on the ground and under saddle myself (except the jumping - that has all been done with Isauro Flores). He is a very easy horse. :) I do have references to trainers and breeders who have met/bred to my stallion in person if you'd like to know more.

[Ajierene]

Thanks Cheekyhorse - I didn't forget about temperment, I just did not add it in because you cannot tell that simply from the website! Don't worry, he's on the list for now - still need to talk to my trainer first.

[smokygirl]

Their is a stallion in TN you may want to consider. Magic Domino AHS +++/ He's an arabian stallion, approved with the Canadian Sport Horse (phase 1) and canadian trakehner association. He has had a PB daughter approved with the ATA as well. Positives for him include a wonderful temperment (he has been used for pony rides for children :)) not at all flighty, excellent bone density, legs and hooves as well as a short back (all common to the arabian). He was started at age 12 (in 2000) as a Dressage horse, and through AHA (arabian association) and open competition, he is now a Legion of Merit holder (+++), which is mainly performance based acheivement, and only 32 others have accomplished thus far. He's about 16hh. The only negative is that you mentioned you like dark colors, and he is grey. Several of his relatives are successful in everything from racing to endurance to cutting to dressage to hunting. The other 3 arabian stallions in the U.S I know of that are WB approved (Ta'ez, Aul Magic, and Al-Marah Quebec, all based on performance acheivements) are of similar breeding as he is (Crabbet), but he's the only one that I would say is tall (for an arabian), and in my opinion (and this is only from videos) he has the nicest back.
Some positives on the breed in general, After being around arabians for a few years, I would say that you don't have to worry about confidence/ courage. Most of them think they are 10' tall and bullet proof. They have a big heart when it comes to those they love. They have a tremendous amount of stamina. They are also long lived (30-40 years is not uncommon), and are generally sound (with proper care) well into their late 20's, most can easily compete until their early 20's (S S Orion, Exodus I, Magic Domino.. our subject horse, Jezebel, Russian Roulette are all sport horses in their early 20s, who are still competeing). They are also thinkers. Part of their success in many disciplines is because they think quickly and can respond to their surroundings (I'm thinking in cutting and endurance terms mostly). Probably most of the reasons why they are used to create the Anglo-arabian, as well as in many warmbloods. The Anglo Arabian (TB/Arab) cross is well loved for many reasons.. My personal favorite is the great Snooze Alarm (eventing horse), he's truly the best of his dam and sire. Oh, and ofcourse, all foals are eligible for registry with the Anglo-Arabian registry, as well as eligible to be inspected by most WB registries.
The downsides, they don't tolerate mess ups. While some types of horses can be forgiving of mistakes, Arabians are not. If you lose the trust of one, it could take decades to get it back. They do usually connect with a person quickly and loyally (it is a good thing, but it can be a hinderance as well). They are an intelligent breed. Things you wouldn't think about with most horses, they figure out quickly (like untying a rope, figuring out how to get out of those special latches for stalls, unplugging cords, flipping the light switch, uncinching themselves..don't ask about it, it's still a sore spot :)). They do get bored easily. While they can do arena work (and well), they need mental stimulation. They also have a great deal of endurance. When you are ready to call it quits, they are just getting warmed up. Anglo Arabians tend to be a trifle more forgiving than PBs in most regards in my opinion.
Magic has pictures and video (as well as his story since he came over from England) at www.arabiandreamfarm.com

[cheekyhorse]

Domino used to be owned by a very good friend of mine Sherri Stewart. (she actually keeps her horses at the same stable I'm at so I see her everyday) I watched Domino grow up as Sherri had him when he was just a baby and she started his riding career before he was sold. I can fully attest to the quality of that stallion. He is a very nice boy!

[Mini Me]

Your list is all over the place with nothing in common other than geography. You've included horses that aren't licensed or approved anything and who have very few offspring in with horses that have everything going for them. No pic of your mare so no way to offer suggestions there and I've found that putting that photo up can help identify what your mare really needs improving on. Limiting your list to horses just within driving distance may exclude the perfect match for your mare, as well. Go with stallions that have known reputations and known offspring, not just ones you can go look at. That info is easy to find on the internet provided the stallion HAS offspring to look at and HAS a performance record and IS licensed. Allacazam, for example, has no performance, isn't licensed and has just a couple of offspring that haven't done ANYTHING! Don Principe, on the other hand, is out there doing it and has LOTS of babies out of a variety of mares. NO comparison. Not even in the same league. Make a more realistic list and I suspect you'd get more input from reputable breeders.

[joyful]

I agree with Mini Me. There are tons of stallions out there, and to limit yourself simply by geography is not going to insure thaat you get the best match for your mare. In addition to the comments of Mini Me, I would suggest looking up stallions by the results of their offspring. Look at what he's produced and see if that matches what YOU want to produce. Also, if this is going to be a competition horse that you want to produce, go to shows where they have youngsters and ask about the horses that you like. When I decided to breed my mare, I swore I was going to only do it once, and I researched stallions like mad! In all my communications with stallion owners, I always included a photo of my mare. I learned soooooo much. Also, I ended up breeding to a stallion I hadn't originally considered, and am THRILLED with the result. You're embarking on an exciting adventure, but there's a huge responsibility you're taking on- a live horse that is going to have to be fed, trained and cared for for hopefully the next 20-30 years. Take the time to produce the best horse you can. In this day and age, unless you have to do live cover, limiting yourself to what's easy to drive to just isn't necessary. Fresh cooled seman ships great and is not difficult to deal with! Please let us know how things work out. Good Luck!

[ahf]

In addition to the comments of Mini Me, I would suggest looking up stallions by the results of their offspring.

While that advice certainly has merit...as the owner/breeder of a freshman stallion on the OP's list....

Offspring are very hard to come by if no one takes a chance on a young sire in the first place. THere has to be offspring to HAVE those results.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

LOL..what a list...and you haven't even listed stallions at Iron Spring Farm or Hilltop (both big breeding operations very close to you).

This really is a hot bed of nice stallions in this area but why are you limiting your self to geography?

I bred my event mare last year when we thought she had a career ending injury (turns out she is ok and has gone back eventing although I may not aim her above Prelim now).
Unfortunately my mare lost her foal this summer (day 332) and we were at risk of losing her (retained placenta). If I hadn't had her with a very experienced vet at her foaling farm....it could have been bad...even still, she ended up at New Bolton for a week. So I ended with lots of vet bills and no foal but at least my mare was mostly fine. Are you sure you want to risk your mare? I debate whether I'm going to re-breed my mare......breeding is not for the faint of heart.

[smokygirl]

Domino used to be owned by a very good friend of mine Sherri Stewart. (she actually keeps her horses at the same stable I'm at so I see her everyday) I watched Domino grow up as Sherri had him when he was just a baby and she started his riding career before he was sold. I can fully attest to the quality of that stallion. He is a very nice boy!

He's still going strong. Gosh, seems hard to believe that he's going to be 21 this coming year :) If I remember correctly, he was imported as a 3yo to Canada, and then as a 12yo to the U.S. He was recently awarded the title by teh AHA as a Living Legend. I hear that he is often shown at events (particularly the Kentucky Horse Park) and is a real ham, just loves the attention of everyone and anyone.

[Ajierene]

Mini Me and joyful - I understand what you are saying, which is why I brought the list here. I started out narrowing down horses that were of the correct height, starting close to me. When I realized how big the list had gotten, with just a few registries gone through, I thought I could post the list here and get some feedback. As stated in the original post, I was looking for people who had personal experience with the stallions. Since temperment is high on the list, personal experience, especially experience with temperment. Talent can easily be seen on a website. I have also been to a few websites where what is written about a stallions (and his offsprings') personality did not jive with personal experience.

I agree with ahf - I am a first time breeder and not someone who will be upset if I don't get an Olympic horse. I don't mind 'taking a risk' on a stallion that is not 'proven' yet, in the breeding shed. I also am not going to be heartbroken if my baby cannot be licensed anywhere. It would be nice, but I am more looking for a good riding horse than that perfect Hannovarian, Oldenburg, etc.

Bornfree - I did not think to write it in my initial post. I started my search last summer and Iron Spring and Hilltop are the first two places discussed/visited with my trainer. Those that we liked are on the 'short list' already, but she suggested that I lengthen my 'short list', so the above is the 'long list' that I found. Searching for stallions on the internet can be a bit daunting, especially for those that do not have a website to look at, just a description on a registry webpage. I have taken the suggestions of other stallions that are not on my list and am working on narrowing down the list I have (though I may just trash it anyway, who knows).

I could look at all the stallions in the world - but that list is definitely not shorter than this list. All the prove stallions in the world is definitely not shorter than this list, so by discounting a stallion to far to visit I may miss the opportunity to breed the perfect stallion, but I may not.

I also appreciate your concern about breeding my mare in general. I have worked at a large standardbred breeding facility, as well as helped with mares at the small barns where I have boarded. I understand the risks of breeding in general and as part of that, am procuring the best (from what I can gather) repro vet in my area. The cost/benefit/risk analysis was done before looking at stallions.

smokygirl: Your description of Domino is what I am looking for. Granted he is not on my list, but he is definitely a stallion I want to take a closer look at.

[Ladybug Hill]

I know you probably will not like to hear this, but I personally would never breed a mare with feet as you describe. This seems to be a trait that comes through true. Might be ok if you keep the foal for its lifetime but what if it is sold to someone that does not maintain the feet properly. It is a miserable life to stand on bad feet. Please consider this before going forward. There are other traits I will look over, if I love the mare, but this is not one.

[smokygirl]

No problem Ajierene. The thing that popped out at me most in your post were the back and the feet, those are two things that I am very very picky about.. and I know Domino can correct those in just about any mare. I'm lucky, with the breeding I like, I don't have to worry much about the hooves or the back length (except too short) or bone density in the horses. But that still doesn't make it easy to pick a stallion :)

[cheekyhorse]

He's still going strong. Gosh, seems hard to believe that he's going to be 21 this coming year :) If I remember correctly, he was imported as a 3yo to Canada, and then as a 12yo to the U.S. He was recently awarded the title by teh AHA as a Living Legend. I hear that he is often shown at events (particularly the Kentucky Horse Park) and is a real ham, just loves the attention of everyone and anyone.

You are correct! Sherri imported him from England as a 3 year old colt. I've PM'd you as I don't want to totally hijack the OP's thread reminiscing about Domino! LOL!!

[AdAblurr02]

<SNIP>
though her legs below the hock leave a bit to be desired. My trainer has also mentioned "if we could just remove one Vertabra, her back would be the perfect length". She has horrible 'typical thoroughbred feet'. Her front feet are flat, where she needs shoes constantly, but her walls are thin so shoes year round would kill her feet and she has go barefoot for a while every year so her hoof can 'heal'. She is also rather flighty/spooky/not liking change.

What I am looking for in a stallion/ future foal:

I am looking for a Warmblood type.
I event and my mare is about a Training level horse. We do Novice right now. I am not looking for an Olympic level horse, just one with a bit more talent than mine.

A more brave horse (she is only confident over a jump if I am confident over a jump...)

MUCH BETTER FEET!

Calmer/more willing temperment.

A touch bigger wouldn't be a problem, but my mare is a good size for me at 15.2HH. Up to 16HH I wouldn't mind, but I am small and don't want a stepladder to get on my horse. I don't really want smaller thatn 15.2HH, either.

A bit of a shorter back would be a good thing also.
<SNIP>

So, basically, you have a mare with a list of conformational issues and you expect a stallion to FIX them all? That is not terribly realistic. The mare produces WAY too much of any foal - you very simply want the best mare you can get to begin with.
One fault, that is not incredibly heritable, yeah, but you have quite a laundry list of things that would need to be a lot better in the mare before I'd even consider breeding her. Feet count, temperament REALLY counts.

Trying to be kind here, but even though you may love this mare to death, she does not sound (without seeing her) like she is a broodmare prospect to me.

[GAEventer]

I'd be concerned about a stallion "fixing" the many issues that it sounds like your mare has. There are so many super horses out there right now for reasonable prices. Why not buy a long weanling or coming two y/o? I'd be most concerned about your mare's temperment, I'm a firm believer that mares are a bigger influencer on the foals, specifically regarding temperment and behavior. I've unfortunatley experienced it myself, and sold a nice mare on, because her foals inherited her character and temperment. I refuse to have a nut in my broodmare herd, especially since our program is tailored towards children and adult amateurs.

[Majestic Gaits]

We are north of NY in NH on the MA border, but if you do expand your area I would consider Navarone (Olympic Jus de Pomme x Armstrong). He is approved KWPN, Oldenburg GOV, RPSI, BWP, CWSHA, CSHA and SWANA for swedish mares. Denny Emerson loves him too for the eventing and bred one of his TB mares to him this year. Navarone has and stamps a temperament to die for. Everyone that has his offspring love them and rave about the temperament. He goes well with TBs. He is about to go out Grand Prix dressage in 2009 and he also jumps phenomenal and did well there. A truly all around stallion that is great for eventers. I can send a DVD, if you send your address, but you can also see a lot online on his web page too.

He puts on a super topline, with a strong hind end, nice uphill neckset, pretty head and can shorten the back with good feet.

Kathy
www.majesticgaits.com

[Ajierene]

ADAblurr02 and GAEventer: I don't 'plan' on having a stallion 'fix' every issue with my mare, neither do I expect I will breed to a stallion that is 100% conformationally correct. If I end up with a baby with the same length back as my mare - no big deal, like I stated in my original post, her back isn't that long, just a half a hair so if I can find one that shortens backs, why not. My mare's feet are 'typical thoroughbred', which means she is not an ideal barefoot horse - but her issues are definitely not on par with Big Browns. She at least has never lost a chunk of hoof. If the baby had the same feet as mom, but a better temperment, I would be fine. Even with the same temperment, the baby will be getting a much better childhood than her mom got, which will have a positive effect on the nurture side of the temperment. I do appreciate your concerns - my trainer would have nixed breeding if she thought my mare could not produce a decent foal.

I may be able to get a picture of her on here this Sat, if the wireless at the local cafe is working alright. That may clear some things up.

Majestic Gaits - I took a look at Navarone and he is a looker. He is not that far out of 'range' either, so definitely a candidate for the short list!

[incahoots]

Don't breed this mare. You can probably get a better bred, better conformed baby for less money. I was able to buy two yearlings this fall, when the prices drop significantly pre-cold weather, for $1500 and $2500. That was about the stud fee. There are great deals out there (especially for a TB cross) and you can already see how the feet are and the basic conformation. Breeding is expensive, risky, and often you get a cookie cutter of the mare....especially the temperment.

[AdAblurr02]

ADAblurr02 and GAEventer: I don't 'plan' on having a stallion 'fix' every issue with my mare, neither do I expect I will breed to a stallion that is 100% conformationally correct. <SNIP>


Sweetie, I do NOT mean this to sound bitchy or awful in ANY way, but if you don't have a 100% mare, you sure as all heck BETTER use a 100% stallion, or as near to it as you can get!

You are just setting yourself up for a lot of heartache when you get compounded conformational issues. As others have said, breeding is THE most expensive way to get a horse. It's also the least sure way of getting what you want. There are thousands of nice horses out there for sale right now - the market is soft, it's the time to shop if you are looking.

[JER]

My mare is a Thoroughbred, but has been confused with being a Quarter horse and Standardbred, on separate occasions. She has a generally good confirmation, though her legs below the hock leave a bit to be desired. My trainer has also mentioned "if we could just remove one Vertabra, her back would be the perfect length". She has horrible 'typical thoroughbred feet'. Her front feet are flat, where she needs shoes constantly, but her walls are thin so shoes year round would kill her feet and she has go barefoot for a while every year so her hoof can 'heal'. She is also rather flighty/spooky/not liking change.


Why do you want to breed this mare? If you want a 'better' horse than this one, don't use this mare as your starting point. There's a good chance (genetic heritability of traits runs at 25%), you'll get her negatives or even a worse version of her negatives.

You haven't listed one single 'strength' of your mare? What are her good qualities? Why is it you want another horse with a large percentage of her genetic material?

Would you settle for a clone of this mare? You probably wouldn't consider it a good investment.

I cannot say this emphatically enough -- if you want a quality young horse, spend your money on a quality young horse, not on breeding. You will get what you want and you will save a pile of money and time.

Or if you are determined to breed somewhere down the line, start trawling the tracks for quality OTTB mares. You'll get a great education on conformation and pedigree and at some point, you'll find a stellar mare.