Selling old broodmares

[busybee]

I was looking on one of big sales sites at warmblood broodmares. I was shocked at the people selling 18 to 22 year old broodmares. One lovely mare was owned by a well know farm. 20 years old! Is it just me? Is that a normal thing to do to older mares.

[Donella]

Yes, I find this a bit sad. I think if the mare is fertile and in good shape and one finds her a very good home then maybe. I personally don't think I could, just because you never know at that age where they will end up. I would rather do a local free breeding lease or something and keep tabs and then when she is ready, a good retirement is well deserved!

[Hillside H Ranch]

I was looking on one of big sales sites at warmblood broodmares. I was shocked at the people selling 18 to 22 year old broodmares. One lovely mare was owned by a well know farm. 20 years old! Is it just me? Is that a normal thing to do to older mares.

I know exactly what you mean! And I think I saw the same ad as you. I was shocked that that farm would sell an old broodie like that. I've bred to their stallions and they are super nice and I just wouldn't expect them to sell a mare of that age, especially since she is open and often mares like that don't end up in a good place.

[Faiths CremelloWB]

grrrr this too makes me angry. I actually have an old mare and here is her story...

Mare comes to my farm with yearling for RPSI inspection. Mare is leased. The lady leasing the mare decides to leave the mare here and take the yearling home. The plan was for the owner of the mare to come and pick her up. I get in touch with the mare owner and she had no clue the old mare was being left at my farm for her to pick up. She sounds like she wants to take care of the mare and is making arrangements to come pick her up. A day goes by and I get a call saying that she would like to leave her here for a week so a transport company can come pick her up and take her to the monthly horse auction. I explain to this lady that there is no way anyone would purchase this mare as she is quite full of arthritis and does not move well at all, she is over 20 and should not have more foals as she tore badly with her last one. She will 99.9999% end up at the killers. The owner goes on to tell me what ever the mares deserves she will get. She has never been very nice to people and can kick at other horses so if someone is there and wants to take her that can. The owner seems to think that there is a chance someone could fall in love with her and take her home. So after I almost lost it on the lady and told her to not bother and just leave the mare here and I will find her a home. WHAT does she say.... No,no... she needs to meet her fate. The lady tells me who is going to want her and that I will be stuck with her for a long time. So I tell her then why do you think someone at the auction (besides a killer) is going to want her. Anyway to cut this short as I could go on forever I end up convincing her to leave the mare here, though she would have much rather her gone to auction. Money was not the issue as it would have been 4-500 to get to there by transport and the lady knows she would not get that for her there. So the mare was left here and what happens. The owners shows up on Thanksgiving in a Mercedes to hand over her papers.... GRRRRRRR I was so angry at the time.

But now the mare lives here with one of my broodmares who has issues and has not been pregnant in 3 years. The two are turnout buddies with my very expensive race horse broodmare. And though one is very old and lame, one is middle aged and can not seem to get pregnant and one is quite young and worth a lot of money... They are all great buddies with the old/lame gal being the head of the pack. I really enjoy watching them together.

I really do feel that breeders should take responsibility for the old gals. If none other than to give them a dignified end to productive life. They do not deserve to end up on a transport truck going to a meat plant. They just don't.:cry: :cry:

[sporthorsefilly]

there is a 21 year old Secretariat Mare listed for the Fasig Tipton timonium sale this Monday. She has had like 8 foals, wish I could bring her home, poor old girl doesn't deserve to be dumped.

[Tiki]

Good for you for giving her a good home. I have my "Grandmother Mare" at home. She is 23, going on 24. She's only had 3 foals, unfortunately, one of them not mine. I leased her out, not knowing that she would be harder to breed back as she had some issues. She is an INCREDIBLY well bred TB mare, as I sort of knew, but found out for sure when Viney graciously helped me out with her pedigree analysis. I have her one daughter, by a top Irish Draught stallion, and she is not for sale for 10 million bucks (neither dam NOR daughter).

I call her "Grandmother Mare". Her stable name is "Freckles". Yes, she's a flea-bitten gray. She is the benevolent, but tough, boss mare. About 10 years or so ago when we had over 45 inches of snow on the ground, she broke trail for all the horses and my old OTTB gelding (who I adored) kept all the other mares and the foals in line behind her. She took them to hay, she took them to water, she took them to feed. She had an assistant lead mare that would take over for her when breaking trail in the deep snow got too tough. Grandmother Mare would step aside, her assistant would step up and break trail and Grandmother would step in, 2nd in line for a while. Then they'd swap again. I have since lost my assistant boss mare to an intractable colic.

Two years ago one of my maiden mares lost her foal at 10 days old. She was just absolutely distraught when she came home. Grandmother Mare heard us coming in and went right up to the trailer. When I let Nicki out, Freckles took her off a little way and the 2 of them stood facing each other with their heads beside each other. The nickered and talked for about 5 minutes and then they both went off quietly to graze. I can only imagine what they were saying:

Nicki - "They took my baby away and never brought him back. What do I do"

Freckles - "It's alright Nickers. They always take them away. Not usually so soon, but they always take them away. I'm sure he's in good hands now and at peace"

Nicki just calmed right down.

I'll NEVER give up my old girls!

[Ajierene]

Faiths CremelloWB - Your story reminds me of how I got my gelding. I don't know exactly where he came from, but the horse dealer I was working with/friends with knew the horse dealer that was handling my old man at New Holland sales. She was known to work with some of the bigger barns. So, after my old man worked his butt off showing for this farm, at the age of 19 he finally could not do the 'big time' anymore. What did they do? Off to the auction. I picked him up and rode him for the next 7 years - walk/trot/canter, jump to 2'6". It irked me not only that he worked hard his whole life and did not deserve the uncertainty of the auction (you can tell when you rode him - he was definitely not one to throw fits or cause trouble, always tried to do what you asked of him. And they just toss him? They could have leased him to a school program. They could have used him for younger riders or leased/sold him to a beginner just starting to jump....

It makes me angry when a horse produces for someone and they just toss them when they cannot do anymore. Whether that producing is ribbons in shows or foals - a good horse deserves a good retirement.

[misita]

There are always two sides to a story and just because an old broodie comes up for sale doesn't mean she's infertile and not producing and being thrown out because of that.

I sold my beloved SWE mare Sprila when she turned 20 because I thought it was best for her. My mares are on 150 acres which can be quite rugged, especially in the Winter. Sprila sold to a vet who has a lovely pasture and very nice barn for her. The vet went on to breed her one more time and now uses her for a schoolmaster. Sprila is much better off now in this quieter environment.

I now have a 19 year old imported Han broodie for sale for just the same reason. This mare ALWAYS produces the site champ and last year her colt was officially named a stallion prospect. Do I want to part with her? Heck no. Will I let her go to just anybody who comes up with the cash? NO. She needs a special environment to meet her needs for her advanced years. A nice safe pasture, with big sturdy barn, and some other mares around for company.

[Tornado Run Farm]

I agree - this makes my blood boil. I turned down a sale once because it was an older broodmare in foal, and I wasn't convinced the buyer would offer her a good retirement after her "usefulness" was over. I kept the mare, and she produced that and one additional foal before I retired her from breeding - the last two were the best foals she ever produced. I figure she more than earned a comfortable retirement. I have another 29yo ex-broodie that is worth her weight in gold as being the designated babysitter after weaning. She loves her job, and keeps my babies safe. That's worth a fortune to me.

Alas, though, a lot of breeders think of these horses as commodities. I guess that's why I'll never make the money as some of the big boys. But they're the losers, too. They miss the satisfaction of seeing these grand old ladies still showing pride in their step knowing they're still wanted and needed. Some things you just can't put a price on.

[Altamont Sport Horses]

This makes me angry whenever I see it. When I take on an old broodmare I do so with the intention to keep her until she dies. After a mare gives of herself like that she deserves a long term home. What I don't understand with well established farms is why they don't do embryo transfer with a good mare. Even if she can't carry a foal it doesn't mean she can't produce good embryos. Sure, not everyone can afford to do embryo transfers but then again we are talking about farms with some dollars backing them or big name stallions who should be able to do that. And especially if they own the stallions the cost of doing embryo transfer is even less. And even a mare that can't produce anymore can have a job as a companion or as a babysitter for weanlings and yearlings.

I could not sleep at night if I sent an old mare on her way just to get rid of her before she stopped producing.

[busybee]

I think it's creepy. Mista the one I saw the farm has a nice warm barn and big irrigated fields, I doubt it would be a better place where she ends up.

[Dressage_Diva333]

I got a lovely old mare, 18 at the time (will be 19 next year), for $800. Has produced a couple awesome offspring, definately improving upon herself. I only tried once to get her in foal this year, I'll try again next year, with my own stallion, rather than using shipped semen with her. She's got a IIB uterus, so it will be pure luck to get a foal from her, but I'm willing to try everything :D

Sometimes you can get really awesome mares for prices that make it worth it even if you only get a foal or two. I got this one because her old owner was a friend of mine, and she didn't have the time/money to ride her anymore.

[Fairview Horse Center]

It would break my heart to have to separate my older girls from their "family".

[maple_brook]

I find this practice very sad and aggrevating. :no: We just lost our retired broodmare at 24 years old. She only gave us 1 foal, but she earned her retirement with us as far as we were concerned and I only wish she would have been with us for much, much longer. It is sad to see large farms use mares and then discard them. Older mares can be great weaning companions and they very much enjoy their new job. Plus, they deserve a loving home that they are familar with.

[siegi b.]

I agree - there is no excuse to get rid of older broodmares that have given you lots of good foals. To think that they would be better off in a new environment is just making excuses for your decision. My mares are attached to each other (some more so than others), and taking one away would be very traumatic for everyone involved.

[avezan]

I agree. It always makes me sad to see the old broodmares for sale. I have a 24 year old broodmare that had a foal this year. It was a difficult pregnancy and the mare came out much the worse for wear. I was just praying that she would come out of it ok so that I could spoil her rotten in her last years of life. She gave me 5 wonderful foals. This last one the best of all. As others have said before, she gave me everything and owes me nothing. so far, so good. The foal is weaned, the mare is being spoiled. I spend more time with her than I do with all of my others put together! The mare still has some rough road ahead, but I am hoping in the spring she will be her old self and enjoy lush pastures, no responsibilities, good company and lots of treats and more spoiling from me. The giveaway ads for old broodies especially make me sad. I wish I could spoil them all, but I'll have to settle for just spoiling my own.

[Faiths CremelloWB]

KUDOS to all those breeders that do take responsibility for the old gals!!! And shame on those who let them to to sales...

[winsmorefarm]

Hi dressage_diva!
You know I have a mare that was a IIB when she was maiden and told the EXACT same thing. Now of course she was 11 years old at the time (a bit younger) and did not get pregnant the first year. I moved her to a repro specialist the next spring and she took on the very first try. You never know what can happen...

But I do agree that my middle aged girls (I have two) will have a forever home with me (as long as my family has a roof over their heads) - as does my 28 yr old gelding (retired Hunter) who helps out as a babysitter when needed and MUST be surrounded by his "family" at all times (we can't always put someone with him due to eating issues). The rest of the time he's just here...safe & happy and I wouldn't have it any other way.

I am partial to Secretariat mares, as I have a Secretariat granddaughter. Unfortunately, I am MAXED out at eight.

[SuperSTB]

I was at an auction back east where they dragged in a 28yo broodmare with a foal by her side. Then they proceeded to mention she was bred back and confirmed in foal for the next year. WTF! I know she didn't sell for much more than $500 and this was 4 or 5 yrs ago.

I'm not much for breeding but know that a well taken care of mare can breed successfully into early 20's. I'd rather see a 20 yo proven brood bred than a 2yr old however...

[Fairview Horse Center]

I was looking on one of big sales sites at warmblood broodmares. I was shocked at the people selling 18 to 22 year old broodmares. One lovely mare was owned by a well know farm. 20 years old!

Maybe they needed a stall for their new horse. :mad:

[Janet]

For a similar story with a happy ending, listen to "Small Victory" By Garnet Rogers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0c3gA76uPQ
or
http://www.garnetrogers.com/lyrics/Small%20Victory.txt

[Dressage_Diva333]

Hi dressage_diva!
You know I have a mare that was a IIB when she was maiden and told the EXACT same thing. Now of course she was 11 years old at the time (a bit younger) and did not get pregnant the first year. I moved her to a repro specialist the next spring and she took on the very first try. You never know what can happen...

But I do agree that my middle aged girls (I have two) will have a forever home with me (as long as my family has a roof over their heads) - as does my 28 yr old gelding (retired Hunter) who helps out as a babysitter when needed and MUST be surrounded by his "family" at all times (we can't always put someone with him due to eating issues). The rest of the time he's just here...safe & happy and I wouldn't have it any other way.

I am partial to Secretariat mares, as I have a Secretariat granddaughter. Unfortunately, I am MAXED out at eight.

Thats so good to hear that it does happen :) I so badly want a foal from this old girl, I've known her for over 10 years, and when the oppertunity came about to get her last December, there was no way that her poor uterus was turning me away.

Anyways, I agree as well, this mare will have a home here forever, regardless of whether or not I can get a foal out of her. She is so happy here, and she's an awesome baby sitter.

I have three elderly geldings as well. One of which is 47 (he was a rescue), one is 30 and has navicular, and one is 32ish and has been an amazing horse, he is still sound (I've had him for about 9 years, and he's never taken an off step!), but he's earned his retirement. I do think, however, that there are times when it's appropriate to give away/sell older horses. I recently gave away an Arab mare that was about 25, still sound and an awesome teacher. She's now be loved and pampered by a little girl.


So I think it really depends, I personally think it's a great opportunity when large breeders sell their older mares, great for new breeders to start right :) It all depends on the circumstances IMO

[BeastieSlave]

It always worries me when I see an old broodie for sale or being given away.

I'm not a breeder, but I have a retired broodmare that I got out of a tough situation. The mare put 7 foals on the ground - each for a different owner. I assume that none of them felt responsible for her long-term care because they didn't have enough 'invested' in her or they got what they wanted and figured someone else would take care of her....

I guess I'm just a sucker because, even though she's high strung, lame, and couldn't give me the foal I hoped for, she has a forever home with me.

To those of you taking care of your (and other people's) old gals (and guys): THANK YOU!!!

[Fairview Horse Center]

For a similar story with a happy ending, listen to "Small Victory" By Garnet Rogers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0c3gA76uPQ
or
http://www.garnetrogers.com/lyrics/Small%20Victory.txt

Thanks for posting this Janet. I had never heard "Mr Fred" perform. Looks like some COTH posters could take lessons from other COTH posters in responsibility. I bet we won't see Gail and Garnet's old mare on dreamhorse.com :mad:

[Equilibrium]

I see this often at TB broodmare sales and it really irkes me. For crying out loud, give her a retirement if you don't want to breed her anymore.

From now on when we add another TB broodmare to our herd she will always be over the age of 16. Firstly, the ones we would like to have would be proven producers. In this day and age people are moving away from families light on top (pedigree wise). Usually your prices will be a bit less for an older mare and this affords me a better pedigree all around.

This July we bought a 16 yo mare with a filly foal by her side. This mare has black type herself and comes from a very nice black type family. We had wanted an in foal 20 yo mare at the same sale, but she was absent. If all goes well Twilight will give us a foal at 18. But, But, But, she will be safe with us and never ditched because she's old.

Terri

[Astraled]

I don't think this practice should be frowned upon. It is the best way for new breeders to get their start with quality mares.

Maybe I'm just used to it because it's common enough with Arabs. You buy a quality older mare, breed her for a couple of nice foals that get your farm noticed and off you go. Miss Mare retires at your farm.

I think it's better than using lesser quality mares and better that putting yourself in debt to afford a young proven broodmare.

It's also a chance to get some more unusual bloodlines.

I hate seeing old horses dumped as much as anybody, but I don't think the sale of an 18-20 year old broodmare qualifies as dumping.

:)

[Fairview Horse Center]

I hate seeing old horses dumped as much as anybody, but I don't think the sale of an 18-20 year old broodmare qualifies as dumping.

When the ad says suitable for someone that wants a pet to groom and lead around, that is dumping.

[Signature]

We, too, find it unconscionable when people "use" up a mare and then throw her out with the trash. So many people treat horses like machines, for breeding, riding, what have you.

We have a couple ladies approaching retirement age and one actually retired already (unless we do ET) and each of them is definitely guaranteed a forever home. We only think that is fair and the right thing to do. Plus, we love them! I could not imagine getting rid of them. They are coming 19, 19 and 18, and while hopefully they may have one more foal or however many nature blesses us with and is appropriate, they will be with us, till death do us part. :) Plus, the older ladies make the best babysitters!

[Mozart]

For a similar story with a happy ending, listen to "Small Victory" By Garnet Rogers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0c3gA76uPQ
or
http://www.garnetrogers.com/lyrics/Small%20Victory.txt

I would but I always start crying when I listen to that song...not something I want to do at work. Beautiful song.

[grayfox]

I saw the ad and I think it's terrible. That mare isn't going to a good situation.

[Fairview Horse Center]

It is very sad when you see the TB breeders dump them, but for some reason I guess I expected the Warmblood breeders to be more responsible and caring. She looks to be a lovely girl too. :(

[ise@ssl]

I agree it makes me sick and angry to see people who call themselves "breeders" trying to sell older broodmares that have served them well. We won't do it. We have a 27 yo TB mare here that had 6 gorgeous foals - we lent her out as a companion to a friend for years but brought her back this year - I want to share her last years with her.

We would put older mares down before we would sell them. I'd be too worried thinking they were ending up at New Holland.

[Dazednconfused]

I don't think this practice should be frowned upon. It is the best way for new breeders to get their start with quality mares.

Maybe I'm just used to it because it's common enough with Arabs. You buy a quality older mare, breed her for a couple of nice foals that get your farm noticed and off you go. Miss Mare retires at your farm.

It's not that common, and the arab breeders who do it shouldn't be breeding in the first place! If you cannot afford to retire your old horses, then don't buy them in the first place and most certainly don't breed more horses! I find the practice as a rule to be completely unacceptable (of course I realize that occasionally extenuating circumstances happen, especially in this tough economy - and I would much rather an old horse be sold than starved).

[Fairview Horse Center]

(of course I realize that occasionally extenuating circumstances happen, especially in this tough economy - and I would much rather an old horse be sold than starved).

That would not be an issue for the mare in question.

I hope she does find a good home, but I am not holding my breath. Just go to dreamhorse, and search for all warmbloods, mare, and 20 years old to see the lovely girl. :(

[Sundown Farm]

I think that a program selling an older broodmare with a foal or two left in her is perfectly fine, if she is a great quality mare.. It gives the young breeding programs a great chance to have a superior foal on a limited budget.

If it were not for these older proven mares then young programs without a ton to spend would never be able to flourish!

[Fairview Horse Center]

I think that a program selling an older broodmare with a foal or two left in her is perfectly fine, if she is a great quality mare.. It gives the young breeding programs a great chance to have a superior foal on a limited budget.

If it were not for these older proven mares then young programs without a ton to spend would never be able to flourish!

That may be true, but this ad says she is for a non-rider that just wants a horse to groom, lead around, and play with her. A companion. It definitely does not say breed.

[Sundown Farm]

I am not talking about this specific horse.. Talking about the name of the thread.. I have not read the whole thread, just stating my opinions on selling older broodies.

[Hillside H Ranch]

That would not be an issue for the mare in question.

I hope she does find a good home, but I am not holding my breath. Just go to dreamhorse, and search for all warmbloods, mare, and 20 years old to see the lovely girl. :(

Narrow your search to the state of California; you'll find her even easier.Sad.

[cloudyandcallie]

I was looking on one of big sales sites at warmblood broodmares. I was shocked at the people selling 18 to 22 year old broodmares. One lovely mare was owned by a well know farm. 20 years old! Is it just me? Is that a normal thing to do to older mares.

Yep. Once they get old, cannot produce, off they go, too bad, no matter how much money they made for the farms.

You'd think the farms would provide for retirement on their farms for the old girls.

I got my ottb mare that way, she was cast aside at 18 yoa. Best horse I ever owned.

So kudos to those farms who retire their old mares and give them homes for life.
And rats to those who offer then free here on coth and elsewhere, when they are used up and barren.

[Thomas_1]

I also find it thoroughly distasteful

[Edgar]

"I also find it thoroughly distasteful"

Me too, and that goes for the last 3 pages of posters with false assumptions.

This mare is not owned by the farm that is caring so well for her, for free, while looking for a caring owner who can take more time with her. She is living here for free in some of the beautiful acres mentioned above and is in great shape. The owner of the mare is serving in Iraq, had to leave suddenly and upon her request we are trying to find a caring home while the owner can not do anything for her from where she is. While the mare is here the owner does not have to worry about her well being. We have known Pat, her owner for about 20 years and our daughters rode and showed together. This is our contribution and we are happy to report that she is doing excellent in an excellent place and would not leave here for anything less. If you doubt that you do not know my wife very well. It is likely the mare will be here til the owner returns from duty and will continue her much more personal and pampered care and attention than we can ever give her. Believe me, we have horses that do not leave the farm after they have served their humans well, not even after they die...

3 pages of apologies would be nice:)

[wehrlegirl]

Just have to say it breaks my heart too... but.. Im forever grateful for the breeder who let their old broodmare go, because if she had been any younger I could never have afforded her ( she is 17).. and I just treat her like a queen, she still shows the most magnificent movements of her dressage days and is in foal for me to a top notch german stallion ( I think her previous owner thought she couldnt get in foal anymore).. I plan to keep her until the day she dies and Im so happy I had the chance to buy her. I know not everyone has good motivation when these old girls get sold, but for some of us it is a great chance ( as long of course as they are taken care of...)

[Fairview Horse Center]

3 pages of apologies would be nice:)

Thank-you Edgar! It was pretty shocking & upsetting as I just couldn't imagine you doing that. So not 3 pages, but count this as at least one appology. :cool: I seriously hope she finds a good home. She is a lovely girl.

Believe me, we have horses that do not leave the farm after they have served their humans well, not even after they die..

Me too. I sleep better knowing they are resting in peace in my field.

[Hillside H Ranch]

I apologize, as well, and I'm glad that in this instance there is more to the story. I wish that were true for all the other older broodies out there that have been dumped.

[siegi b.]

Hi Edgar - I didn't even know that this was about a mare at your place.... shows you how much I pay attention! :-) I was really only disputing the claim by another poster that an old mare would be happier some place else.

But go ahead and count this as an apology so we can get the three pages dones! :-)

Hope everything is going well for you!
Best,

Siegi

[goeslikestink]

me too, also my daughter thinks the same, she went to a market and i know its not a warmblood ok, but is a broodmare of sec b well bred and is 16yrs old, was still there at the end of the market so debs asked me if i could loan her the money to get her, which i did
so she brought her home to her yard at the moment she keeping a young horse company whilse in as hes on box rest, but when shes finshed doing that shes will be comming to my yard as for ever home, the mare is sweet and very much like raspberry whos a sec A

shes so neavous she had owners up till oct 2007 on her passport and breed card
but nothing since so only can imagine shes been past from pillar to postin this time as shes so scared of everything an everyone, she has been out in the fields at debs yard but is a tad hard to catch so we have a head collar on with a tiny bit of bailing twine under the chin to grab her with at mo, but she nice sort hasnt been broken to ride so we have found out
but thats ok, she been with us about 3weeks or so and in that time has put on some weight as she was skinny for a native,, but shes comming round so at the mo she baby sitting a young horse in side the yard, she gets handled all the time

so next year shes got a job with a couple of my others as i will show her in hand
as her overall conformation is nice and she does have a flashy leg action

[Thomas_1]

Me too, and that goes for the last 3 pages of posters with false assumptions....... 3 pages of apologies would be nice Hey??? No false assumptions on my part. I merely answered a general question about people selling older brood mares.

I find it thoroughly distasteful. I feel no need at all to apologise at all for being of the opinion that it's wrong to treat horses as a commodity and to sell them or move them merely because they've got old or served their purpose.

This mare What mare??? I was unaware we were even discussing a single and particular mare???

Though I've got to say you've got me curious now and might even go back and plough through all the responses and so I can see what you're expecting me to apologise for.

[Thomas_1]

o.k. so now I've waded through all the posts and I still don't understand why Edgar is looking for apology. In fact I'm even more confused.

Has something been deleted?? edited??

I can see that a couple of posters e.g. posts 30 and 38 start to talk about an advert and/or a (singular) mare but personally speaking I don't have a clue what they're talking about. I'm not seeing anything at all in this posting to tell me that it's about a particular horse.

It's also abundantly clear that far and away the majority of posters on this thread have answered the general question about the principle of selling brood mares on when they've served their purpose and are not talking about a specific horse.

[Daydream Believer]

This IS a confusing thread Thomas.... I agree.

Well, speaking in generalities I also find people unloading old broodies to be distasteful. This is one reason I got involved in rehoming Rio Rita the Arabian mare that is 25 this year. I'm hauling her to Connecticut in my own rig next week to a lovely Arabian farm where she lived as a young mare. I am only being reimbursed for my gas which will probably run about $300 for the trip not counting tolls. I'm going to miss two days of business here at my farm in training and trimming....so it's going to hit me there also and it is that time I'm donating as well as the use of my truck and trailer.

Well, if it bugs you folks, do something about it. I get involved a lot with my own breed but I'm a sucker for any mare in need. I have another one here that needs placed also for her owner who cannot keep her but she's much younger and breedable.

[Donella]

Well I thought it was more of a general discussion as well but since this one mare was brought up:

I don't think anyone was claiming that the mare has been mistreated, but she is still being sold. Her owner is getting rid of her. It is nice of Edgar to look after the mare in the meantime, but the owner should still be able to do better for her old girl that she has apparently owned her whole life. I get sometimes a person can't afford this but then I question wether one should own a horse in the first place if you cannot manage to give such a horse a good retirement where you KNOW she will be safe. Or free lease her out so that you can keep tabs and have complete control of her should things not go as planned.

This doesn't change my opinion about old mares being sold at all.

[goeslikestink]

i was answering in general not at a persific horse
i often rescue the odd oldies and give them a home, becuase to me that horse or pony has been a part of someone somewhere and done its duty what ever that may be
and deserves a safe place to be at where it can get the love and care it so richly derseves after having being a loyal servant for another.

[Astraled]

It's not that common, and the arab breeders who do it shouldn't be breeding in the first place! If you cannot afford to retire your old horses, then don't buy them in the first place and most certainly don't breed more horses! I find the practice as a rule to be completely unacceptable (of course I realize that occasionally extenuating circumstances happen, especially in this tough economy - and I would much rather an old horse be sold than starved).


I disagree. I think it's a service to the breed and to new breeders.

I think it's okay to sell older riding horses, too.

I don't believe it's cool to dump them or sell off a horse that isn't useful.

[lilypondlane]

While I agree that the posts on this thread have been mostly general comments, there were a couple of references to a specific mare and it was quite easy to go online to a couple of sites and figure out which mare. I was dismayed to see who, so, Edgar, very good that you have posted here to set the record straight. Things aren't always as they seem and we shouldn't make assumptions. While I personally could not sell an old mare (or gelding) that had been part of my family for years, I'm not in the same situation as the owner of this mare. And this is not the same sale situation that most of us find so distasteful (to put it mildly). Some of you may recall that last summer an incredibly well-bred OSB-A Trakehner mare ended up at an auction in PA and was sold to a killer. She was resuced that same evening by a good-hearted woman and ultimately given a permanent home by one of our fellow COTHers in IL. Not all of us have the land or the resources to take in an old broodie but to those who do, God bless you. And to those who send them to an auction and let a killer buy them, God help you.

[ise@ssl]

I also disagree that apologies are due. The TITLE of the thread is "Selling Older Broodmares" and if you read all the posts - the vast majority addressed that topic. And it is a topic worth discussing because dumping older mares is happening and with the economy it will probably increase.

For those who say it helps new breeders to pick up an older mare, heres's my concern. If that mare DOES get in foal and produce a live foal but then proves to be difficult to settle going forward, what's that "new breeder" going to do with her?? After only owning her for a year or so will they feel attached enough to give her a life home? In the vast majority of situations the answer is a resounding NO. So then what happens to her?

[Daydream Believer]

Some of you may recall that last summer an incredibly well-bred OSB-A Trakehner mare ended up at an auction in PA and was sold to a killer. She was resuced that same evening by a good-hearted woman and ultimately given a permanent home by one of our fellow COTHers in IL. Not all of us have the land or the resources to take in an old broodie but to those who do, God bless you. And to those who send them to an auction and let a killer buy them, God help you.

While I understand most of you are into WB's... please note that a lot more old mares of all breeds end up at meat auctions. I know you can't save them all and focus on the breeds that interest you mainly but try to express some dismay/sadness at the tens of thousands of incredibly well bred QH's and other breed mares that go this route daily. WB's only rarely end up in that situation in this country but it's a sad fact of life for many other horses.

[avezan]

I actually do think that apologies are due. I think everyone on this board would agree that the practice of breeding a mare over a number of years (decades) and then dumping her when she is old and no longer producing, is abominable. But the horse that was the subject of a number of specific posts on this thread was not in that situation. It was implied that the farm listing her for sale was guilty of this practice, and honestly from the ad, it did appear that this was the case. Edgar has cleared up the situation and *I* do think this is a reasonable situation for selling/giving away an older horse while her owner is otherwise occupied risking her life for our country in Iraq. I would, however, suggest to Edgar to put this reason in the ad. Not only to eliminate any suspicion of his farm dumping an old broodmare, but it may also help sell the mare knowing that there is a good reason for her sale at such a late age. And I applaud Edgar for taking care of this mare for her owner and for keeping his old broodmares at the farm even after they cross the bridge.

I think the reason below does contribute to the ads for old broodmares for sale. If a new breeder buys an old mare, hoping to get a foal or 2, and gets none, or maybe just one, they don't feel the same obligation to the mare as the original owner who owned her for (possibly) decades and got many foals from her. Another possible reason is that a breeder gave an older mare to someone to ride, or as a companion, thinking the horse was going to a good situation. But again, this new owner does not feel the same obligation to the mare as the original owner should, and may end up selling the horse or sending her to auction when she is no longer meeting their needs. A good reason for breeders to retire their old broodies themselves, and not try to find them a "better situation" being "useful". The breeder loses control over the horse's fate, and then we see these sad, sad ads... JMHO.

For those who say it helps new breeders to pick up an older mare, heres's my concern. If that mare DOES get in foal and produce a live foal but then proves to be difficult to settle going forward, what's that "new breeder" going to do with her?? After only owning her for a year or so will they feel attached enough to give her a life home? In the vast majority of situations the answer is a resounding NO. So then what happens to her?

[lilypondlane]

Daydream Believer, you make a most valid point and I apologize if I sounded as if I only cared about my beloved Trakeheners. My first horse was half TB and half ??? She died at the age of 12 as a result of a foaling gone wrong, but she would have been 23 this year and would have had a home with me forever. I loved that mare more than words can say.

[Thomas_1]

While I agree that the posts on this thread have been mostly general comments, there were a couple of references to a specific mare and it was quite easy to go online to a couple of sites and figure out which mare. In that case it must just be me who's too stupid to figure it out.

Admittedly I just skipped the light fantastic through the postings but I never saw any names mentioned at all.

I have now had my curiousity raised and am now wondering how comes this particular mature mare is living for free at "Edgars" and why it's up for sale if the owner is due to come home?

I've also had horses from serving forces officers in the past and when they get a posting the horse just goes onto full exercised livery. Basically it just costs more for the owner to keep it managed and fit and exercised till they get back. That's no different to the business man's hunter I have with me permanently. I do the work. He pays for it and turns up when he wants to safe in the knowledge that the horse is going to be ready for him to ride and in good condition.

The alternative is to turn the horse away if it's known it's to be a long time. So remove the shoes (if feasible), don't exercise it and let it have a bit of a holiday until owner is ready to return and do something. A little cheaper but the owner still pays.

I've only ever been landed with a horse with the owner not paying when it's a bad debt. A mass of different root causes but at the end of the day it amounts to the owner not being able to pay for what he/she has committed to. Yes I've sometimes kept the horse for free but then the owner either pays the debt or else I sell the horse to recover what I'm owed and as allowed for in the contract.

It may well be that Edgar is just much more philanthropic than I am and doesn't mind subsidising someone's lifestyle choice and that's fair enough but I've now got totally confused by this posting.

[Daydream Believer]

Sorry lily...I shouldn't have singled you out. It is a sore topic with me and I've only had one cup of coffee so far this a.m. I absolutely HATE to see old mares dumped like that and I only wanted to point out that this tragedy happens daily in this country.

[Edgewood]

I actually do think that apologies are due. I think everyone on this board would agree that the practice of breeding a mare over a number of years (decades) and then dumping her when she is old and no longer producing, is abominable. But the horse that was the subject of a number of specific posts on this thread was not in that situation. It was implied that the farm listing her for sale was guilty of this practice, and honestly from the ad, it did appear that this was the case. Edgar has cleared up the situation and *I* do think this is a reasonable situation for selling/giving away an older horse while her owner is otherwise occupied risking her life for our country in Iraq. I would, however, suggest to Edgar to put this reason in the ad. Not only to eliminate any suspicion of his farm dumping an old broodmare, but it may also help sell the mare knowing that there is a good reason for her sale at such a late age. And I applaud Edgar for taking care of this mare for her owner and for keeping his old broodmares at the farm even after they cross the bridge.




Very well said. I did not post on this thread, but I did read the thread and it did lead me to the advertisement for the mare. I appreciated Edgar's further explanation, which is valid, given the circumstances of the mare's owner.


Yes the thread had a lot of general information (which I agree with), but the OP specifically said being sold by a "well known" warmblood breeder. Other posters actually went and provided more info on where to look and how to search to find the ad.

[Home Again Farm]

Very well said. I did not post on this thread, but I did read the thread and it did lead me to the advertisement for the mare. I appreciated Edgar's further explanation, which is valid, given the circumstances of the mare's owner.


Yes the thread had a lot of general information (which I agree with), but the OP specifically said being sold by a "well known" warmblood breeder. Other posters actually went and provided more info on where to look and how to search to find the ad.

Ditto, edgewood. And when I saw the ad, my first thought was that there must be much more involved than we could know from the ad. I have met both Edgar and his wife and am quite certain that they do not dump their older mares.

[Edgar]

Specific references were made to our farm about dumping a mare when we are actually preventing that from happening at our own expense. That was not kind and pure speculation as nobody knows how serious a seller qualifies a new home. The owner does not get back for at least 10-11 months. The mare may be here, that is just fine. Over the last 20 years we have given away several horses younger and older and created a happy situation for horse and new owner. If I can figure out how to make a change to the ad I will ad the owner information as suggested. I will tell you that it is absolutely possible to find a good home for an older mare but it is hard to do for us when we have had them for a long time especially now that a lot of good people are busy saving dumped horses.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I want to clarify that my appology is specifically to Edgar, since the mare in question is not his horse, and not about dumping older mares. After finding the ad myself, I did intentionally try to aim people to this ad to attempt to aid in this mare's plight. I was hoping someone would find the ad that would be in a position to help her. For that, I definitely do not appologize.

We have also rescued several horses - some that have been abandoned at my farm, and some we have found on nearby farms that needed help. One we kept for over 12 years, until she died. She was totally "useless" but much loved by everyone on the farm thru her old age. Another, many of my boarders added $10 a month to their board, to cover her expenses for a few years. We sold t-shirts, had used tack & book sales, etc. until we finally found a great home as a companion with someone that would spoil her rotten & continued to keep track of her.

Like so many have pointed out, even a carefully placed older horse will not have the years "invested" with a new owner, and if they don't produce that foal, or don't get along with the intended companion, or cribs on the fence, or something else annoying, they will be sent down the road into a very bad situation.

[Ajierene]

I thought the thread, from reading the first post, was a more general thread. Guess that's where I went wrong. I still think dumping any horse is not right. When I mention 'dump', I mean misadvertising to sell or leaving at auction. Someone with an ad out may just be waiting for the right home to come along. As far as the 'what to do with older broodmares' question goes. Well, you can always free lease them to a nice home and take them back when the leasee desires. That frees up expenses. There is also the option that people do not want to consider, but is far better than dumping a horse.

You can euthanize the horse - put the horse down. It is far better than leaving the horse to an uncertain fate. The woman that is keeping her horse with Edgar - what was she going to do if that option was not open? If she was boarding the horse somewhere, then she has the option to keep boarding the horse there. If she had a self care or home care situation, she's in the military, she should expect to be deployed at some point and have a back up plan. Maybe Edgar's is her back up plan, which is fine, but to all the breeders that sell their older horses to auction or give them up to the first person that comes along, with doing as much as possible to ensure a good home.

[Edgar]

We have a responsisbility as horse owners and we should not take that lightly but to assume the worst when a 20 yr old mare is on a for sale site is probably just based on your own bad experiences and downright gossip. Yes , if she was not here a panic decision might have put her in a bad place just like many horses of all ages they are finding in the desert or the street of Lexington for that matter. This mare does not need help and you should see how happy she is when we ride her around and she has a job. She is next to our stallion pasture, I can see her from my kitchen window and she looks great(and the stallions love her too:) She does not need help but somebody to play with would be nice and enrich 2 lives.

[FriesianX]

Sometimes people buy (or adopt) older mares and it turns out to be a great situation. So don't automatically assume the worse...

Years ago, my husband and I adopted an older mare - she was somewhere between 25 and 28 years old (not registered so not exactly sure). Several people asked why I'd taken on an old broodmare of uncertain heritage :lol: Actually, that old gal trucked my husband around for years (trotting for a few steps was just fine for him), was a bombproof mount for my friends little kids for years, and endured grooming and styling from all my husband's employees' kids for years too. She had two speeds, slow and slower, and that suited her job just fine. She LOVED kids and all the stuff that comes with kids (carrots, apples, braided mane, grooming, etc). When she finally died (9 years later, so somewhere in the 34 to 37 age range) of natural causes, I dont think anyone questioned she had a good life in her final years. She laid down one morning, and died before they vet could arrive... Personally - I think that is the way I want to go too...

Older broodies may have something to offer - not just in the breeding area. Many did start out as riding horses, and can make great kids mounts (or husband safe mounts) later in life.

So I don't always assume the worse. Of course, sometimes the story doesn't have such a happy ending, but sometimes it does...

[Dressage_Diva333]

I was also unaware of a specific ad leading to a mare at Edgar's? Oh well.

Anyways, I think it's great what Edgar is doing. It's helping both the owner, and the horse. It sounds like the 25 year old mare I gave away. She LOVED being ridden still, and pampered. I took the mare back because the person that had her was going to college, then found her a fantastic new home with some people that just wanted a very light riding horse for their kids. I didn't have any intrest in doing anymore than letting her sit in my pasture, I've got other horses that I need to worry about. I am positive that the mare I gave away is much happier now :)

Now I do have one mare who I'll have forever, because she can't be ridden (broken pelvis as a 2yo), and she's a large mare that can be intimidating if you don't know what your doing when she starts acting up. She was given to me, and per previous owner said that if I can't find her a good home, then put her down. I stand by my decision that it all depends. If the mare is gentle and healthy, then why not try and rehome her? If she's not really sound, or has some health issues, then it may be best to hold onto her and give her the retirement she deserves.

[Sunnydays]

I agree with those who say "it depends". Sometimes an older horse may not do so well in a herd situation, or where 7/24 turnout in inclement weather is the norm. He or she may have special feeding needs, or may not move as fast as the others - and might be more comfortable with 1 or 2 or 3 companions, vs a large group.
An older horse can give lots to a new home - perhaps not babies, but "learning and loving" opportunities for the adults and children in that horse's new life, and even slow, steady trail rides, as some have pointed out.
So, one should not rush to judgement, in this sort of situation (or others;))
My 2 cents ...

[Kyzteke]

It's not that common, and the arab breeders who do it shouldn't be breeding in the first place! If you cannot afford to retire your old horses, then don't buy them in the first place and most certainly don't breed more horses! I find the practice as a rule to be completely unacceptable (of course I realize that occasionally extenuating circumstances happen, especially in this tough economy - and I would much rather an old horse be sold than starved).

Actually it seems to be more common than you think.

I was visiting Al-Marah's site and Bazy Tinkersey does it (in a way). If she has a good broodmare, she keeps some of her best daughters and sells the mare when she is 12 or so "so others can take advantage of the bloodlines".

Well, 12 isn't old, but I'm thinking she's being smart and selling the mare while she's still marketable and fertile.

I do something similar: Because of my set up, I have limited space for real old, infirm horses. There are one or two I've had since they were babies and they will ALWAYS have a home with me, so I need to reserve space for them.
So in the past I've placed the few broodmares I've sold when they are 14-16 yrs. old and still known to be fertile. I "sell" them for a pittance or even give them away, but the homes are carefully screened and I remain 1/2 owner on the papers. If the person is interested, I will often include a breeding or two to my stallion free of charge or sell the mare already in foal. We have a written contract. The understanding is that the buyer is getting that mare for cheap/free in exchange for giving her a lifetime home.

If this person cannot fulfill that requirement, they must bring the horse back to me.

So far that has worked out great -- but to sell a mare who is basically past her reproductive life and probably hasn't been ridden in YEARS -- well, we all know what is going to happen to that horse.

[fancyponies]

Personally speaking, I cannot upfront produce the money to purchase a broodmare of the quality I would like, yet I have room and food galore, and can afford to maintain and provide vet care for an aged broodmare in her declining years, as well as the ability to allow a peaceful demise and burial on my farm. Since I am a hobby farm, I do not have to look as hard at the economics of that stall as a large stable might. So I would be happy to be able to purchase such a mare although I might only have one or two foals from her before she is retired to pasture only. Their loss is my privilege.

[Dazednconfused]

Actually it seems to be more common than you think.

I was visiting Al-Marah's site and Bazy Tinkersey does it (in a way). If she has a good broodmare, she keeps some of her best daughters and sells the mare when she is 12 or so "so others can take advantage of the bloodlines".

Well, 12 isn't old, but I'm thinking she's being smart and selling the mare while she's still marketable and fertile.

I do something similar: Because of my set up, I have limited space for real old, infirm horses. There are one or two I've had since they were babies and they will ALWAYS have a home with me, so I need to reserve space for them.
So in the past I've placed the few broodmares I've sold when they are 14-16 yrs. old and still known to be fertile. I "sell" them for a pittance or even give them away, but the homes are carefully screened and I remain 1/2 owner on the papers. If the person is interested, I will often include a breeding or two to my stallion free of charge or sell the mare already in foal. We have a written contract. The understanding is that the buyer is getting that mare for cheap/free in exchange for giving her a lifetime home.

If this person cannot fulfill that requirement, they must bring the horse back to me.

So far that has worked out great -- but to sell a mare who is basically past her reproductive life and probably hasn't been ridden in YEARS -- well, we all know what is going to happen to that horse.

12 is not that old. 14-16 really isn't that old either. I don't care if Bazy or god himself dumps old mares - it's still unacceptable in 99% of cases.

[Sonesta]

You know, I do think Edgar is owed the apologies. While his name was not mentioned, it was not at all difficult to figure out about whom several of the posters were writing. And the implied criticism of him was ugly and unwarranted.

As for older broodmares, I am one of those who believe that they can be carefully placed and contribute to the breeding of quality horses by a new breeder who could not otherwise afford a top mare.

I am not at all ashamed to tell you that I began my breeding program with two older mares that I am forever grateful to have been trusted to care for them. One was 18 and one was 17 when I acquired them. I promised to give them forever homes and knew that I was taking a chance that they might not give me many, if any, foals.

One was my beloved Wallstreet (Waldhorn/Grunewald/Erenschild) who gave me a fabulous black Diamont daughter and an incredible Feiner Stern daughter. She is now in her mid twenties and is the queen of the farm, being lightly ridden occaisionally by a student who wants to feel what a REAL warmblood is like to ride.

The other was my dear Diende (Diamon/Darwin/Marconi), from whom I got two Feiner Stern daugthers and a Pablo daughter.

They will stay here now forever, retired and pampered.

[akrogirl]

I will gladly add my apologies and am grateful that Edgar has filled us in on the story. I admit to being a little oversensitive on this subject after taking in my old broodie from people who were in a far, far better position than I, both from a land and monetary point of view, to take care of her, but who chose not to.

[Thomas_1]

You know, I do think Edgar is owed the apologies. While his name was not mentioned, it was not at all difficult to figure out about whom several of the posters were writing. .

So has something been deleted or edited because I'm darned if I can see anything that leads to anyone????

[Kyzteke]

I
You can euthanize the horse - put the horse down. It is far better than leaving the horse to an uncertain fate.

Then everyone of us should prepare to be euthanized, because ALL of Fate is "uncertain."

There is just as much chance of a younger horse having an tragic life as an older one and just because we, as breeders place a horse in a "happy home" is no guarantee they will stay there.

We do our best (and least I do) to try to place horses in the right home with the right people, but it doesn't always work despite our best intentions. A number to times I sold younger horses (1-8 yrs. old) to what seemed to be perfect, loving, lifetime homes -- the buyers all assured me "oh, we NEVER sell our horses." In two cases the horses were up for sale within 2 yrs. because circumstances change. People lose jobs, lose interest, lose spouses, lose health -- Life is ever changing and unpredictable and there is nothing we can do about that.

A friend of mine once said, "we all have our own paths thorough Life," and this is very true for people AND animals -- in fact, every living creature. While we have abit more choice than animals, no creature has complete control over Fate.

Dumping? It's not always dumping just because you sell a horse. We all can get very smug and judgmental about it, but I bet there is no breeder who has bred for any duration who knows where every single one of their horses is now and knows FOR SURE that they are ALL being loved and cared for.

I am not a big breeder, and I try like hell to stay in touch with every buyer, but even so there are afew I've lost touch with....and of course that means I've lost touch with what happened to the horse(s) they bought.

It happens.....

[Kyzteke]

So has something been deleted or edited because I'm darned if I can see anything that leads to anyone????

Nothing was said other than "we are surprised that THIS breeder would be doing such a thing!" (where is the self-righteous emoticon when you need it?). But you can bet PMs were flying feverishly back & forth pointing the way to Edgar's site (Rainbow Equus).

[ise@ssl]

Krytzke - YOU WROTE: "Dumping? It's not always dumping just because you sell a horse. We all can get very smug and judgmental about it, but I bet there is no breeder who has bred for any duration who knows where every single one of their horses is now and knows FOR SURE that they are ALL being loved and cared for."

Save for one Welsh pony that I'm still trying to track down - I DO KNOW where every horse/pony I bred is and that's probably close to 40! And my older mares stay here or are lent out as companions (at nearby farms). When we feel their quality of life is well below what they deserve they are euthanized, cremated and their ashes are buried here on our farm.

[onqhanoverians]

I bought an older broodmare in 2004 out of a broodmare band at 17 yrs old because I needed a nanny for a weanling Hanoverian I had purchased and I had no other horses at that time. WHAT AN AMAZING MARE! At time of purchase I had no idea what an amazing "people" horse the mare was. I bought her without ever meeting her. Once she settled I could see that she deserved different than a broodmare band existence as she is so personable and a schoolmaster to 3rd level dressage (though old suspensory injury so probably could compete regularly). At that time I had no intention of becoming a breeder or riding her. After talking to AHS a few years later, I was convinced to breed her because of her A line for brains and a decent 7.0 on inspection scores. She produced for me 2 VERY nice fillies.....even Champion Filly this year at AHS inspection. She is now absolutely done making babies.

I would say that I could not be mad at the breeding farm that offered her for sale (dumping?) because she has a lot better life here with me. She is a "best friend" kind of a horse. She LOVES to proudly carry me around.

Yesterday was a sight to behold as she romped and played with a weanling and 2 year old. She has a great life and this is no "dumping" ground.

I would consider lending her to a therapy riding org as she loves mothering people and you can turn a herd of non-horse kids with her and she is dependable to love the attention. A very healing soul she is. But unless an amazing place became available that guaranteed her as good of life or better than she has here, she will stay with me. Sometimes I need her for my own therapy! ;-)

[smokygirl]

Actually it seems to be more common than you think.

I was visiting Al-Marah's site and Bazy Tinkersey does it (in a way). If she has a good broodmare, she keeps some of her best daughters and sells the mare when she is 12 or so "so others can take advantage of the bloodlines".

Well, 12 isn't old, but I'm thinking she's being smart and selling the mare while she's still marketable and fertile.

I do something similar: Because of my set up, I have limited space for real old, infirm horses. There are one or two I've had since they were babies and they will ALWAYS have a home with me, so I need to reserve space for them.
So in the past I've placed the few broodmares I've sold when they are 14-16 yrs. old and still known to be fertile. I "sell" them for a pittance or even give them away, but the homes are carefully screened and I remain 1/2 owner on the papers. If the person is interested, I will often include a breeding or two to my stallion free of charge or sell the mare already in foal. We have a written contract. The understanding is that the buyer is getting that mare for cheap/free in exchange for giving her a lifetime home.

If this person cannot fulfill that requirement, they must bring the horse back to me.

So far that has worked out great -- but to sell a mare who is basically past her reproductive life and probably hasn't been ridden in YEARS -- well, we all know what is going to happen to that horse.

Well, Bazy, Sheila Varian, Dan Gainey, the Tones.. most arabian breeders do that. Most of them I know have mentor programs as well, and consider it a way for beginning breeders to get involved in the breed and get a great mare with a proven record, without the expense of one in the "prime". Usually the mare comes in foal. Bazy's program gives the mare away essentially, but you have to breed the mare to her stallions for X amount of years, and she/the farm, do followup. I know most of Bazy's and Sheila's are broke as well, but may be injured or not ridden recently. But I think part of it probably is that at 20, many other breeds of mares are considered aged. Arabians routinely live another 15 years or so. (Though, it's unknown as the registry, w/o confirmation ages them out at the age of 35). If you buy a WB mare, it seems, at age 20, you may get one or two more foals. If you buy an arabian mare, you probably have 4-6 more foals, not including any ET you do, and I know quite a few people who have been extemely successful with doing them in mares over 30 years old. Same with the stallions, it's not uncommon for arabian stallions to be heavily breeding into the late 20's or early 30's. Sidi Brahim's last foal crop was born when he was 35, as was Serazim's (sire of Snooze Alarm).

[Ajierene]

Then everyone of us should prepare to be euthanized, because ALL of Fate is "uncertain."

There is just as much chance of a younger horse having an tragic life as an older one and just because we, as breeders place a horse in a "happy home" is no guarantee they will stay there.

We do our best (and least I do) to try to place horses in the right home with the right people, but it doesn't always work despite our best intentions. A number to times I sold younger horses (1-8 yrs. old) to what seemed to be perfect, loving, lifetime homes -- the buyers all assured me "oh, we NEVER sell our horses." In two cases the horses were up for sale within 2 yrs. because circumstances change. People lose jobs, lose interest, lose spouses, lose health -- Life is ever changing and unpredictable and there is nothing we can do about that.

A friend of mine once said, "we all have our own paths thorough Life," and this is very true for people AND animals -- in fact, every living creature. While we have abit more choice than animals, no creature has complete control over Fate.

Dumping? It's not always dumping just because you sell a horse. We all can get very smug and judgmental about it, but I bet there is no breeder who has bred for any duration who knows where every single one of their horses is now and knows FOR SURE that they are ALL being loved and cared for.

I am not a big breeder, and I try like hell to stay in touch with every buyer, but even so there are afew I've lost touch with....and of course that means I've lost touch with what happened to the horse(s) they bought.

It happens.....

Perhaps you did not read my entire post, or misinterpreted it. I was illustrating only another option for people who say they sell their older mares due to lack of finances, lack of room, etc. An old horse that has limited abilities will be much harder to place than a younger horse. Even though those young horses you sold were not in forever homes, as you were previously told, unless they had a life altering injury, they would very likely end up in another loving home. I have seen it in the horse rescues and in private farms myself. People trying to scrape for money or illicit donation to keep unrideable horses in their teens, or even younger. Horses that have personality issues that no one can deal with, injuries or ailments that make them unrideable. With the way the horse market is today, it is better for those horses and for the horses with a better future, if they are put to rest.

Sure, if you have the room and finances to house the older mare, especially one that has taken care of you, then allow her to retire. If you have an older mare (or any horse) that has taken care of you and you do not have the means to keep it any longer, putting it down is the better option.

The system that smokygirl talks about is also good - for people with the means to keep up with those new breeders. My point is selling or keeping are not the only two options. The third is not as pleasant, but much better than 'dumping' (dumping: selling without checking references as much as possible, giving away to the first person that comes along, sending to the auction).

[pony grandma]

It would break my heart to have to separate my older girls from their "family".

Wow. My first read thru this thread and this stopped me in my tracks.