No Braiding for Un-Rated Hunter Divisions

[petuniapony]

HITS just sent this out via email. Do you think it's a good idea? Do you think people will do it? Are there other ways the shows can approach cost cutting?




Major Winter Circuits Come Together to Agree 'No Braiding for Un-Rated Hunter Divisions' in Response to Recent Economic Conditions

SAUGERTIES, NY (December 8, 2008) — In recognition of the current economic climate, promoters of all the major winter circuits are examining ways to help exhibitors minimize ancillary expenses in an effort to maximize their opportunities to show and enjoy their winter circuit experiences. While USEF rules do not mandate braiding, the winter circuit managers from Gulfport, HITS, Jacksonville and the Winter Equestrian Festival have decided to go on record advising all judges that exhibitors who opt not to braid for un-rated classes should not be penalized.

All the promoters agreed that, while a small step, this action may be something that makes it a little bit easier for exhibitors to continue their participation in the shows.

Don Stewart, trainer and owner of Don Stewart Stables in Ocala, Florida and Chairman of the National Junior Hunter Committee, expressed his support for the action. "I think especially in today's market, it's imperative that we cut back somewhere and perhaps this is a place to start."

Lori DeRosa of Newmarket, a prominent trainer on the West Coast, was also positive in response to the steps being taken on behalf of the exhibitors. "I think that's a great idea. I've been trying to move in that direction, and anything you can do to lessen the cost of showing and allow people to continue showing is very helpful."

As a result of these initial discussions, this group of winter show managers has entered into a dialogue to search for other opportunities to be sensitive to costs in these uneasy economic times.

"Bob Bell, Mark Bellissimo, Joe Dotoli and I felt that we had a responsibility to look for opportunities to help exhibitors reduce some of their expenses, which is why we are coming together for this action and why we'll continue to identify areas where we can alleviate other show-related expenses," said Tom Struzzieri, President and CEO of HITS, Inc.

"In talking to many, many trainers and competitors who compete annually in Jacksonville, Gulfport and Atlanta about the idea of somehow reducing the costs of showing horses, braiding seemed to be a common denominator," said Bob Bell, Show Manager and President of Classic Company, Ltd. "These are unprecedented times and we must consider all aspects of the sport so that all of our exhibitors can continue showing this winter. Some of our exhibitors may have budget restraints this year, and we hope that reducing braiding costs will help them continue to compete."

Mark Bellissimo, CEO Equestrian Sport Productions, LLC, (ESP) added, "We will be asking all of our hunter officials (Judges) not to penalize any entry in the un-rated divisions of the Winter Equestrian Festival for not being braided. We consulted with a number of top trainers and judges and they all endorsed this action. It is a great opportunity to defray expenses for our exhibitors in these difficult economic times."

For more information on Classic Company, Ltd visit www.classiccompany.com. For more information about the circuit in Jacksonville visit www.nfhja.com or email Alexis at agamel@comcast.net. For more information about the six weeks in Gulfport visit www.classiccompany.com or call 843.768.5503.

Equestrian Sport Productions, LLC is a Wellington, FL based company that produces and promotes equestrian sport, most notably the Winter Equestrian Festival, now in its 30th year. www.equestriansport.com. Media should contact Ken Braddick at 561.793.5867.

HITS, Inc. is a special events management company primarily focused on producing hunter/jumper horse shows. Based in upstate New York in the village of Saugerties, HITS produced its first horse show circuit in Gainesville, Florida in 1982. Since that time, HITS has grown into a nationwide company with world-class hunter/jumper circuits in California, Florida, Arizona, New York and Virginia.

For more information and a complete schedule of classes and events, visit www.HitsShows.com.

Media should contact Chris Mayone at 845.246.8833 or e-mail Media_Info@HitsShows.com.

[Ravencrest_Camp]

Oh yeah, going to WEF is going to be sooooo much more affordable now that I can save on the cost of braiding. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Um, how about lowering entry fees? Or maybe the cost of stalls. :yes::yes:

[luvs2ridewbs]

What about the braiders? They are going to be losing money and probabaly not happy about this. I wonder if they will go to other show circuits

[crestline]

Looks like a good opportunity to me for all those kids to learn how to braid their own horses where they won't be penalized on the quality if they aren't perfect...yeah...I know...not likely to happen but great in theory! :-)

[M. Owen]

It is nice that they're trying to think of ways to lower cost, but people theoretically could eliminate the cost of braiding by learning to do it themselves. It may be nice if they could attempt to reduce the cost of something people can't control or reduce on their own.

I don't show at that level, so won't affect me, but it seems like they could get a bit more creative.

[SaddleFitterVA]

I like how they cut costs that have no impact on them. It impacts the braider's income, not HITS bottom line.

[pds]

The braiders will raise their prices to compensate. So now a braid job on a Hunter in a rated section will cost you 20-30% more.

[heartinrye]

They did this at Littlewood a few years ago, although I believe it was for all divisions actually (please correct me if I am wrong). It was VERY rare though to see even a horse in the Low Hunters sans braids, yes there may have been fewer tails, but manes, no.

[DMK]

I like how they cut costs that have no impact on them. It impacts the braider's income, not HITS bottom line.

Exactly. Nothing but the most altruistic motives, eh?

Besides, many people already skip braiding for unrecognized divisions if that is all the horse is showing in that day and it's early in the week. However if you are using an unrated class as a warm up for your rated division, it's not like he won't be braided for that class...

[heelgirl4381]

Yeah, because braiding is what is breaking the bank! Not trailering, entry fees, stalls, hotels, trainer fees.......I love how the guy in the article acts like this is going to give people a huge economic relief. If you can afford to go to Gulfport or North Florida in these economic times, chances are you can afford a braider. I agree with RC, make entry fees lower!

[Summit Springs Farm]

That is ridiculous, many people do not braid now for the unrated divisions.

How about reducing some real costs like oh, stall fees???

And that is only helping a few people who choose to show early in the week, and what about the jumpers???

It only helps just a few hunter people.

Absurd. Is all I can say.

PS. Personally I had planned on reducing some of my personal costs by not showing in those divisons away, and only the ones that have prize money.

PSS. This is bad krama, publicity and just stupid to come out with something that does not affect/effect(never know which one) the show manager's bottomline, just a few horse showers and the braiders!!

[Midge]

I like how they cut costs that have no impact on them. It impacts the braider's income, not HITS bottom line.

Exactly! I am a braider and it annoys me to no end. I remember parking my 20 year old, 24 foot camper next to Bob Bell's class A motor home at a show he was managing. His motor home cost roughly twice as much as my house. It was the same year he wanted to 'ban' braiding at Gulfport to help cut costs.

What a load of horsepucky. In these tough economic times, it would be nice if the Big Three weren't trying to put me out of business. And to think I have been a customer of both WEF and Classic. My bread and butter is not the unrated divisions, but they often go during the week when most braiders can use the extra work.

Man up, you managers! Make a hard choice to cut your own bottom line, if you really want to save the exhibitor money.

[Dirty Little Secret]

Certainly isn't cutting the bottom line for HITS just the income for the braiders. I'd like to see more people doing it themselves but as an exhibitor it certainly is nice to have a pro do it and after a hard day of showing it's worth the expense.
I just hate it for the braiders.

[Hattie]

I am glad to know that my response wasn't unique when I opened my email from Bob Bell. I laughed out loud when I read TS's quote on looking for ways to save exhibitors money, as long as it doesn't affect his bottom line. He's probably thinking how he can charge the braiders a percentage of their profits. How stupid do they think the exhibitor is?

[Sebastian]

I like how they cut costs that have no impact on them. It impacts the braider's income, not HITS bottom line.

My first thought, too. Nice of them to screw the "little guy" but act like they're being soooo magnanimous... :rolleyes:

Seb

[MissintheSouth]

I like how they cut costs that have no impact on them. It impacts the braider's income, not HITS bottom line.

Exactly. What an eff-u to the braiders! If HITS was willing to sacrifice any of THEIR bottom line to help out exhibitors I would have been impressed. And I agree with those who say that braiders are just going to raise prices. I wonder what kind of margin HITS is making off their office fees and entries?

[Go Fish]

While I agree with a lot of what folks have said here, my braiding bill on two horses for a 4-day show recently was nearly $800. That's not chump change. I can't braid myself and I'm too traditional not to braid for a show, even if the division my horse is showing in is unrated. While I feel for the braiders, they're business people just like everyone else. Welcome to the new economy. My trainer lost 10 horses just this month. Owners just couldn't afford the board and training anymore and took their horses home. Everybody is hurting...braiders are not exempt.

[katie16]

As a trainer, I am opposed to this on many levels.

1) First and foremost, if the expense of braiding your horse is a concern for a client, they can simply learn to do it themselves for nearly free (only the cost of supplies needed). And PLEASE don't tell me they don't have the time. You make a decision/trade off - time to learn and practice or spend the money to have someone do it. It is not tricky, but like everything else, takes practice to do it well. On show day, if you are slow at it, it will take you an hour to braid your horse - less if you have gotten very proficient at the task. You can't get up an hour earlier to save yourself money? Then you don't want to save that money badly enough.

2) The people who seem most in favor of this, show managers and BNT's, have nothing to lose or gain by this decision. Except in very few cases of trainer owned animals, they are not the ones paying the bill. Personally, I think their stance gives them the appearance of caring for the pocketbook of the client, and that's it.

3) Sorry, but if you can afford to show at WEF, HITS, Gulfport, etc. you can afford to braid. Braiding is a minimal expense compared to everything else that you pay for on those circuits.

4) And a little off track . . . I have noticed over the past several years that there is less and less braiding being done in general. Personally, I believe that this is happening for one primary reason - laziness. Less and less people know how to braid, or even care to try to learn. Too often unless you are at a larger show, on the path that the professional braiders travel, you simply don't have anyone to braid your horse. Trainers seem to be frosting over this by making a "look good" excuse of "oh, it's not rated" because they don't have anyone to do it for their customer, and many of them can't do it themselves.

Of course this is just my opinion on the topic! But it's coming from someone who years ago as a 16yr old kid braided for people at Devon and took pride in the turnout of those horses and ponies! I hate that fact that we seem to be losing the tradition and respect for the sport.

[crestline]

Decided I should add this so my above post doesn't come off wrong as being all for this....I agree completely that the cuts could come out of the shows pockets too...I've got good friends that are braiders and would like them to make a living as well!!! I do however think it would be nice if kids had to braid their own horses at some point to learn about what all is involved with showing a horse besides writing a check :-)

[katie16]

If HITS was willing to sacrifice any of THEIR bottom line to help out exhibitors I would have been impressed. ?

Exactly! Anything out of THEIR pocket would have been a nice gesture!

[katie16]

. . . my braiding bill on two horses for a 4-day show recently was nearly $800. That's not chump change . . .

I agree that braiding fees have gotten a little steep. My clients are VERY fortunate (and have no clue!) that my current braider, who is in house so to speak, only charges $30 (for a mane or a tail). But, I still say that if it gets too costly for someone, then they should learn to do it themselves.

[katie16]

The braiders will raise their prices to compensate. So now a braid job on a Hunter in a rated section will cost you 20-30% more.

Have you actually heard this from braiders or are you just speculating?

[Giddy-up]

Have you actually heard this from braiders or are you just speculating?

I think pds was merely speculating. But....braiders still have their costs of staying where these winter circuits are & now if they are going to lose a chunk of braiding thanks to show management "cutting costs"...they might need to make up for it somewhere. I wouldn't be completely totally suprised if some do raise their costs.

Wowzers...if I am saving $100-150 a week in braiding, this totally makes the decision for me. I am so going to WEF now! Time to start riding again & get those horses ready. I am going to be crazy & take 2 horses even. :winkgrin:

[Go Fish]

Wowzers...if I am saving $100-150 a week in braiding, this totally makes the decision for me. I am so going to WEF now! Time to start riding again & get those horses ready. I am going to be crazy & take 2 horses even. :winkgrin:[/QUOTE]

Yikes...where do you show that your braiding fees are $100-$150 a week???? I think the last time I paid that amount was around 1970.

[sweetpea]

What about tapping in to the entry fee's or something to help out the jumpers too!!!!

[kellyb]

I like how they cut costs that have no impact on them. It impacts the braider's income, not HITS bottom line.

Agreed. Very lame, imo.

[justdandy]

You know how I'm going to cut costs? I'm not going to go to the shows run by TS (even though Culpeper is right in my backyard) because of his ridiculous fees! Yes....I said ridiculous. Dude really needs to get a grip on reality. Really....175 for a stall? I went to one of the AQHA shows at Commonwealth Park to watch. You know how much they paid for their stalls? $50 for the week. Yep...$50 and they weren't expected to clean out their own stalls at the end of the week.

Now why can't TS (the man who owns the property and doesn't have to pay a rental fee) charge less for those same exact stalls? I know...some of you are going to say he has to worry about the upkeep, blah, blah, blah. If that's the case, he really needs to pull out the dictionary to see exactly what upkeep means (i.e., no nails in stalls, no holes in stalls, no truck eating potholes in the driveway, better wash racks - you get the idea).

Oh...and I learned to braid for myself so I can do it if necessary or pay a braider if I have extra cash.

I might go to one (maybe two) of the TS shows at Commonwealth Park if it's feasible and I can ship in, but I'm not going to bend over backwards to get there.

[lisa]

Exactly! I am a braider and it annoys me to no end. I remember parking my 20 year old, 24 foot camper next to Bob Bell's class A motor home at a show he was managing. His motor home cost roughly twice as much as my house. It was the same year he wanted to 'ban' braiding at Gulfport to help cut costs.

What a load of horsepucky. In these tough economic times, it would be nice if the Big Three weren't trying to put me out of business. And to think I have been a customer of both WEF and Classic. My bread and butter is not the unrated divisions, but they often go during the week when most braiders can use the extra work.

Man up, you managers! Make a hard choice to cut your own bottom line, if you really want to save the exhibitor money.

Yeah, I remember when Bob Bell and Don Stewart wanted to do the same thing a few years ago. Don Stewart wanted to not braid for the Jr. Hunter divisions, IIRC! I say, then how 'bout cutting his schooling/daycare fees in half?

How about this? Braiders should leave their customers a receipt, which can then be presented to show management for credit toward their bill.

Now *that* would be service!

[quintessance]

Now why can't TS (the man who owns the property and doesn't have to pay a rental fee) charge less for those same exact stalls? I know...some of you are going to say he has to worry about the upkeep, blah, blah, blah. If that's the case, he really needs to pull out the dictionary to see exactly what upkeep means (i.e., no nails in stalls, no holes in stalls, no truck eating potholes in the driveway, better wash racks - you get the idea).



Amen Sister!

[Nski32]

As a trainer, I am opposed to this on many levels.

1) First and foremost, if the expense of braiding your horse is a concern for a client, they can simply learn to do it themselves for nearly free (only the cost of supplies needed). And PLEASE don't tell me they don't have the time. You make a decision/trade off - time to learn and practice or spend the money to have someone do it. It is not tricky, but like everything else, takes practice to do it well. On show day, if you are slow at it, it will take you an hour to braid your horse - less if you have gotten very proficient at the task. You can't get up an hour earlier to save yourself money? Then you don't want to save that money badly enough.

2) The people who seem most in favor of this, show managers and BNT's, have nothing to lose or gain by this decision. Except in very few cases of trainer owned animals, they are not the ones paying the bill. Personally, I think their stance gives them the appearance of caring for the pocketbook of the client, and that's it.

3) Sorry, but if you can afford to show at WEF, HITS, Gulfport, etc. you can afford to braid. Braiding is a minimal expense compared to everything else that you pay for on those circuits.

4) And a little off track . . . I have noticed over the past several years that there is less and less braiding being done in general. Personally, I believe that this is happening for one primary reason - laziness. Less and less people know how to braid, or even care to try to learn. Too often unless you are at a larger show, on the path that the professional braiders travel, you simply don't have anyone to braid your horse. Trainers seem to be frosting over this by making a "look good" excuse of "oh, it's not rated" because they don't have anyone to do it for their customer, and many of them can't do it themselves.

Of course this is just my opinion on the topic! But it's coming from someone who years ago as a 16yr old kid braided for people at Devon and took pride in the turnout of those horses and ponies! I hate that fact that we seem to be losing the tradition and respect for the sport.

I agree with every word!

People are becoming too lazy, and dont take any pride it making their horses look nice when they go into the show ring.

I braid for every show, and I rarely go to a "rated" show. I could care less about "rated" shows- and I hate that people make them out to be soooo special. If you show rated, it doesnt make you any better a rider, or horseperson than the rest of us.

To me, a rated show is just more expensive, and in most cases less fun. I prefer the open shows, and treat them the same as I would any show.

This is stupid, learn to braid yourselves, and the costs of other things should be lowered!

[ef80]

How stupid are these people? Come on. There are plenty of GOOD ways to reduce costs for exhibitors and potentially reduce their own costs at the same time.

A friend of mine who rides breed show stuff has mentioned "ribbon credits" before. From what I understand there are shows where you can opt to not take home a ribbon/prize and get a couple bucks back off your entry at the end of the week. I'd personally take some cash-off my final bill instead of some of my old 4th - 10th places. With intelligent ribbon/prize purchasing and design (don't put the week number or year), they can cut down on some costs.

[BAC]

The cost of braiding is a drop in the bucket in comparison to all the other showring expenses. Let HITS management cut entry fees, stabling costs or take a paycut instead of expecting the braiders to take the hit. :mad:

[findeight]

I agree that braiding fees have gotten a little steep. My clients are VERY fortunate (and have no clue!) that my current braider, who is in house so to speak, only charges $30 (for a mane or a tail). But, I still say that if it gets too costly for someone, then they should learn to do it themselves.


Actually, 4 manes a day is 120 for 4 days making it 480 for just the manes at that $30 per mane OR tail...that means the tails would be another $480 if all 4 were done all 4 days.

So that prior example of the 4 horses over a 4 day show running up an $800 braid bill IS $30 a pop or close to it.

It is but a drop in the bucket for an AA show anyway...why don't they drop the stupid "schooling fee" that gets slapped on even when you buy a stall or a $50 add scratch fee-that one is great for some but slams a one horse owner doing one or two divisions who does not add or scratch.

I laughed last time this came up and I laugh now. And I have not braided for non rated unless it is some kind of stake or on under saddle day for years...and few others do either so where is the big savings?

[chrissymack]

Is anyone forwarding these thoughts back to show management?? It's easy to complain on here, but sounds like it's preaching to the choir- eveyone's already in agreement!! :yes:

[JustJump]

I like how they cut costs that have no impact on them. It impacts the braider's income, not HITS bottom line.

It's not just HITS--the PR email was from ALL the winter circuits. I got one from Bob Bell just afterwards.

You would think they could come up with more of a sacrifice than giving up someone ELSE'S income.

[Midge]

While I agree with a lot of what folks have said here, my braiding bill on two horses for a 4-day show recently was nearly $800. That's not chump change. I can't braid myself and I'm too traditional not to braid for a show, even if the division my horse is showing in is unrated. While I feel for the braiders, they're business people just like everyone else. Welcome to the new economy. My trainer lost 10 horses just this month. Owners just couldn't afford the board and training anymore and took their horses home. Everybody is hurting...braiders are not exempt.

If I had picked you up as an outside customer and braided both horse's manes and tails for four days, your bill would have been $600.

I agree braiders are going to take a hit just like everyone else, but I expected it to happen because my regular customers weren't going to as many horse shows. Or there would be a customer who could no longer afford to have horses. Or the young horses and less experienced riders would go to more schooling shows instead of A shows. One of my biggest customers is staying home from Florida this year. I did NOT expect to take a hit because horse show management was going to decide who braids.

[vxf111]

If show management is truly worried about the cost of showing driving away business-- why don't they cut their OWN profit/fees rather than take action that is likely to reduce costs by taking profit away from braiders/grooms?

I'm having trouble seeing this as a "noble gesture," more like a way to do something just for the ability to point and say "look, we did something, we did try." If they really wanted to make the experience of showing affordable, they'd take a hard look at the markup applied to stalls/fees and do some cutting their.

Ah, but that noble feeling doesn't feel so good when your own pocket is a little lighter. ;)

[Midge]

Is anyone forwarding these thoughts back to show management?? It's easy to complain on here, but sounds like it's preaching to the choir- eveyone's already in agreement!! :yes:

If people want to continue to braid, they will.

[JustJump]

This has been a pet project of Don Stewart's for years. (Remember when he roached all those manes?) Note that his name is used in the PR material.

[Giddy-up]

Yikes...where do you show that your braiding fees are $100-$150 a week???? I think the last time I paid that amount was around 1970.

it's $45/mane around here so I am guessing for 2-3 days of showing I'd pay $100-150/show?

[findeight]

This has been a pet project of Don Stewart's for years. (Remember when he roached all those manes?) Note that his name is used in the PR material.


Jeeesh...wasn't he the one who proposed no braiding in the Juniors about 10 years ago.

Heck, Jimmy Williams got mad and roached all the manes one year about 40 years back.

Nothing new and rather like a little kid acting out against something puny because they don't really want to rock the boat. Not impressed with their "care" about my wallet.

[Dana]

I do hope someone is forwarding all these replies back to HITS, WEF and Bob Bell. The majority of exhibitors that I speak with all complain about the constant rise in stupid fees from show management.

I've already heard from my braider friends, and they sure aren't happy about this little tidbit!

Dana

[NinaL aka Chrissy]

This proposal is silly. It does nothing to drop expenses for the rated hunters or any of the jumpers. Big flippin' deal - I doubt that any judge in their right mind gives a rat's patootie about whether the low or schooling hunters are braided.

How about -

$50 off of the stall fees. If you do the whole HITS circuit that will save you $300 and does not discriminate against the exhibitor showing in the rated divisions.

Cut the paddock fees - I forget what they were last year but it was high. Especially considering you are basically getting a round pen.

Drop the nomination fees for the jumpers. Bobby Allen runs his shows with no nomination fee. The 175 entries in the level 4's should make up for the cash deficit.

Give back the office fees.

Sounds to me like the big three are seeing lower entries in their crystal balls.

Nina

[Go Fish]

If I had picked you up as an outside customer and braided both horse's manes and tails for four days, your bill would have been $600.

I agree braiders are going to take a hit just like everyone else, but I expected it to happen because my regular customers weren't going to as many horse shows. Or there would be a customer who could no longer afford to have horses. Or the young horses and less experienced riders would go to more schooling shows instead of A shows. One of my biggest customers is staying home from Florida this year. I did NOT expect to take a hit because horse show management was going to decide who braids.

Horse show management is not deciding who braids...they are saying you won't get dinged if you don't. If you want to continue to "support" the little guy, ie, the braiders, go for it. Nobody's telling you that you can't. I will have my horses braided (mane and tail) regardless.

[Go Fish]

it's $45/mane around here so I am guessing for 2-3 days of showing I'd pay $100-150/show?

Mane and tail for me is $100 per day...I get a slight discount because I have two horses showing. A mane alone is $70.

[Just My Style]

Are you kidding me? I must be old school, but I always braided my own horse. And I braided for A shows too. I rarely did a "local". It's not hard. It just takes practice. No reason why any person can't learn to do it. If they don't, then they are lazy. And I do agree that it is a silly cost for the shows to cut. I am glad I no longer play in to the horse show scene. It has gotten more ridiculous over the years.

[hedmbl]

No reason why any person can't learn to do it. If they don't, then they are lazy. .

It's not always that someone is lazy as it is related to the number of horses they have. There have been years when I've had 5 or 6 horses showing during the winter circuit. If I hoped to sleep after feeding/nightcheck and before arriving at 6/6:30 am to feed and start the morning hacks I literally couldn't braid that many. I had the ability and know how to do it but just wasn't as fast as a pro....but then I've also never begrudged a braiding fee since I much appreciate the service and extra sleep.

Now I just have three, all of which are jumpers. I braid them myself on classic days but can only do it b/c I have the luxury of a groom to help with stalls/feeding/nightcheck....plus my jumper braids are way easier and less time consuming then the hunter braids.

[Go Fish]

Are you kidding me? I must be old school, but I always braided my own horse. And I braided for A shows too. I rarely did a "local". It's not hard. It just takes practice. No reason why any person can't learn to do it. If they don't, then they are lazy. And I do agree that it is a silly cost for the shows to cut. I am glad I no longer play in to the horse show scene. It has gotten more ridiculous over the years.

Okay, I'm lazy. I don't clean my stalls or feed my horses at the show, either. I'm in a position, for once in my life, to be able to pay others to do this work for me. I do however, get my horses ready, warm them up, show them both, and put them up at the end of the day (including taking those pesky braids out), MYSELF.

[Ghazzu]

Yeah, I remember when Bob Bell and Don Stewart wanted to do the same thing a few years ago. Don Stewart wanted to not braid for the Jr. Hunter divisions, IIRC! I say, then how 'bout cutting his schooling/daycare fees in half?

How about this? Braiders should leave their customers a receipt, which can then be presented to show management for credit toward their bill.

Now *that* would be service!


Now *there's* a brilliant idea!
I love it!

[Portia]

I like how they cut costs that have no impact on them. It impacts the braider's income, not HITS bottom line.

Ding ding ding ding ding. Got it in one.

[findeight]

Okay, I'm lazy. I don't clean my stalls or feed my horses at the show, either. I'm in a position, for once in my life, to be able to pay others to do this work for me. I do however, get my horses ready, warm them up, show them both, and put them up at the end of the day (including taking those pesky braids out), MYSELF.


Well said.
And I never even did any Hunters until I was 45 and already had enough "arthritic changes" to prevent learning the art, heck, I need glasses too, even to take them out. They steam up in either hot or cold extremes and they do not have contacts for far sightedness that work worth a hoot.

More then happy to pay others who would do a MUCH nicer job with all their years of practice anyway...and I am NOT EVER AGAIN getting to the barn at 4am to prep, bathe and warm up for an early class. BTDT have the bags under the eyes.

Called alot of things in my life. Never lazy.

[dogchushu]

I can see this backfiring on them. I know more than one person who relies on braiding income to offset some of their own showing costs.

While I should say that my horse is braided because of tradition, respect etc., the truth is that I like it for the pictures! :lol:

[Chancensassy]

Whatever happened to aspiring to be the best, AT ANY LEVEL?????????? It will be interesting what the judges "impression" will be, interesting to see their cards!

You are right - the pix are better, but what you SHOULD say is what you DID say - TRADITION, RESPECT - AND, BY THE WAY, DOG - "THANK YOU FOR SAYING IT!

[Go Fish]

Findeight - LOL!!! Both of my hunters are bays and I can't see the black yarn on a black mane. I need a spotlight....

[Platinum Equestrian]

Oh yeah, going to WEF is going to be sooooo much more affordable now that I can save on the cost of braiding. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Um, how about lowering entry fees? Or maybe the cost of stalls. :yes::yes:

I'm with you... I think stall fees or nomination fees would be a better solution.

I like the braiding for the pics too... in the hunters it does seem more appropriate to have them braided.

[Platinum Equestrian]

I already deleted the email from them... but someone should forward this thread to the email address we receive the HITS messages from. Or if someone has the email address, I'll email the link to them.

[Dana]

I remember years ago the show in Estes Park implemented a "casual" day where you were supposed to just wear a polo in the hunters instead of a shirt and coat. And, they announced that you would be dinged if you did show in normal attire. Well, that backfired on them because the photographer didn't sell any photos (who wants photos of their hunter, if the rider just looks like they're schooling). The trainers were upset, the owners were upset, etc. I kinda' see this being the same way. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out.

Dana

[isltime]

braiding is the least of the cost and doen't effect management at all. i have the ocala prize list in front of me. the basic cost paid to the horse show each week without entry fees is is 250 including stall and horse deposit .add your entry fee ,usef fee, ushja fee, nominating fee- now your between 500-1000 assuning no big classics. don't screw the braider's who do a wonderful job. if horse show management wants to help exhibitors, have them make a cut into their profits and have a 20 percent rebate on all the cost they charge.
now we havn't included living cost, tack rooms, paddocks or stabling on the circuit. transpotation etc. a comment on brading for unrecognize divisions is rediculous.

we all know how expensive showing is, so if things are tough just cut back and don't do it.

it would have been better if nothing was said!

[Brydelle Farm]

This is so depressing and disgusting...in order to keep everyone HORSE showing, let's start by not turning out the HORSE as well as it should be, how ridiculous. I am with Katie16...nice post.

As many have said, I feel for the braiders and may those in FL this year, stick with tradition and show their HORSE fabulously and beautifully!!

JMHO...

[christmasfarm]

I braid for a living. I travel from Waco, Tx, to Lexington, Ky and Pensacola, Fl. I am on the road - away from my home in Gulfport, Mississippi - about 38 weeks a year, just to make enough money to keep that home. On the road, I live in a second-hand camper, and my truck is nine years old. I charge $45 for a mane, and $25 for a tail, and last year, after travel expenses, my little llc netted less than 18 thousand dollars. I wrote Bob Bell his very first sponsor check, for $600 for the children/adult jumpers!, the year Gulfport first began, and introduced him to the lady who was later in a position to get him those casino sponsorships he has now. Last year at Gulfport, I sponsored a pizza lunch on saturday of week four, cost me $500. I spend about $1500 a year in other sponsorships with other show managers each year.
I, too, started as an exhibitor at these shows (and not insignificant! a horse of mine won one of Bob's grand prix's in 2000), and hope to someday return. i am out there in all weather conditions, in any town my customers go to, and I consider myself lucky to have the group of customers I do! I actually went DOWN on the price of tails at Thanksgiving, in response to current economic conditions, and I have resisted going to $50 on manes like many others. I have had surgery on both my hands (what would YOU do for your job?), and my customers will braid, regardless of management's "suggestions", because they want their horses to stand out.
I have done my damnest to try to bridge the gap between management and the braiders. i have heard the rumors, even outright out-loud wishes, of charging braiders "vendor's fees." (what's next? a "groom's fee"? a penalty fee for being able to afford Tailored Sportsman?) i truly appreciate that show managers like Bob and Thom and all the others are laying out serious money, up front, to put on these shows and make their profit, and that we, the braiders, are kind of like sucker fish, feeding off the big game. i have cheerfully written my sponsorship checks, year after year, toward the end of saying "thank you." But what am i supposed to think, do, say, when these people, and people like Don Stewart, millionaire horse dealer, go OUT OF THEIR WAY to sabotage me and my living? Continue to propose "saving money" out of pockets other than their own? I am the FIRST to respect the exhibitor who wishes to save money by braiding their own - I will even show them a few tricks when they ask! But why should I be asked to subsidize the like of Thom Stuzzeri (sp?) and Bob Bell? I already have a call in to Bob, thogh apparently Tizzy is fielding his calls on this. From the tone on this thread, I get the feeling that most recognize this for what it is - an attempt to make the braiders the sacrificial lambs. As Jack Cafferty says, here's the question:

how many of you are willing to speak up to these show managers on this?

pm me if you need to, post here if you wish, or do the right thing.

[TheOrangeOne]

I think it's well established that you do NOT NOT NOT mess with the braiding mafia. Should they take a stance, I believe they have more control over the situation than the show management.

[sanctuary]

I like how they cut costs that have no impact on them. It impacts the braider's income, not HITS bottom line.

truly! I'm glad I teach my kids to braid themselves anyway. But still, I feel for the braiders that rely on these shows. :no:

[Go Fish]

I think it's well established that you do NOT NOT NOT mess with the braiding mafia. Should they take a stance, I believe they have more control over the situation than the show management.

OMG, this just cracks me up! :lol:

[clearound]

So we shouldn't pay to braid but should be forced to pay an office fee of $50 per week and an off-grounds fee of $75 per week. How magnamious of you Mark Bellissimo!

[eqrdr92]

This is extremely ridiculous. I don't see how any anyone finds it logical to try and help the people who can afford to show all year round while they undermine and cut the profits of people who are probably hurting a lot more in this economic crisis.

I'm not sure exactly how being a vendor at a show works, but I assume the vendors rent the space from the management for the duration of the show? If that is the case, why not just go ahead and make those people sell their items 50% or more off while charging them the exact same price to rent their space? Seems to follow the logic the managers used for the braiding thing, screwing all the salespeople over while saving themselves. Seriously, this needs to be stopped.

[galwaybay]

You know how I'm going to cut costs? I'm not going to go to the shows run by TS (even though Culpeper is right in my backyard) because of his ridiculous fees! Yes....I said ridiculous. Dude really needs to get a grip on reality. Really....175 for a stall? I went to one of the AQHA shows at Commonwealth Park to watch. You know how much they paid for their stalls? $50 for the week. Yep...$50 and they weren't expected to clean out their own stalls at the end of the week.

Now why can't TS (the man who owns the property and doesn't have to pay a rental fee) charge less for those same exact stalls? I know...some of you are going to say he has to worry about the upkeep, blah, blah, blah. If that's the case, he really needs to pull out the dictionary to see exactly what upkeep means (i.e., no nails in stalls, no holes in stalls, no truck eating potholes in the driveway, better wash racks - you get the idea).

Oh...and I learned to braid for myself so I can do it if necessary or pay a braider if I have extra cash.

I might go to one (maybe two) of the TS shows at Commonwealth Park if it's feasible and I can ship in, but I'm not going to bend over backwards to get there.


It's interesting to see what other disciplines pay in fees - at the exact same facility- how is it that a H/J show has to pay $125 more per week for a stall than AQHA? - does the show make that much more $$ -so they can subsidize stalls for exhibitors. One would think the rental would be pretty much the same.

one thing about the AQHA, Arabians etc - they get to win things like new trucks, trailers etc and the grand champion hunter at the international gets a cooler and a cupcake?


I think it would be nice to cut back some of the office /schooling fees. For some places that's gravy. But I will say a lot of shows do not make huge profits, much of what they make has to/should go back into the facility (if owned)

Shows could find ways to cut expenses - why not get rid of mailing price lists - they can send out post-cards w/a link to where the prize list can be viewed and downloaded - that would cut out postage and some printing costs. they could also do email blasts - with a link to print out prize lists -

[chukkerchild]

one thing about the AQHA, Arabians etc - they get to win things like new trucks, trailers etc and the grand champion hunter at the international gets a cooler and a cupcake?


I have ALWAYS wondered why this is. The barn I used to board at had a reining show every year, a big one, and they gave away two brand new TRAILERS as prizes. Plus, some of the classes had hardly any entries and still got huge checks. My old friend used to show in reining locally, and she would go in a class of five, get third, and win $300... where are they getting it? :lol:

[horsegurl]

I'm glad to see so many folks "laughing" at this press release. I recieved it too, part of the mailing list I guess. GET REAL STRUZZERI!! Lowering my braiding bill by $100 isn't much of a savings. If I can't afford that, I shouldn't be showing. Show me a real savings. Lower your stall costs. Lower what % you take from the feed suppliers so they can pass the savings on to us. Drop your entry fees by 25%. Show me a savings of $400 or more per week, if you want to wave the flag of righteousness, do it right. Trainers charge full training at home, and then charge additional training daily on the road, and charge us for their hotels, tell Don Stewart and Lori De Rosa to quit yappin' and start acting. Hauling hasn't come down in price, despite gas being less than half of what it was over the summer.

All this grandstanding about how you and the other managers are saving us money, is crap. Get over yourself, and really do something about it!

[Nikki^]

It's interesting to see what other disciplines pay in fees - at the exact same facility- how is it that a H/J show has to pay $125 more per week for a stall than AQHA? - does the show make that much more $$ -so they can subsidize stalls for exhibitors. One would think the rental would be pretty much the same.

-

Because the show managers can and those who have money live by this rule "Oh well, you have to pay to play."

Take this exapmle. The EQ center right by me charges $65 a week or $39 for the weekend (fri,sat,sun).

Local shows charge this but if a rated show "A", "AA" comes along, they charge $150 for the week on top of other fees such as a $30 ground fee, $35 non stabling fee etc....

It's sickening.

Here are the fees to rent out the Center. Scroll down to page nine.

http://www.co.escambia.fl.us/departments/parks_recreation/documents/EquestrianFacilityUseAgreementUpdated01.03.08.pdf

[Peggy]

I think it's well established that you do NOT NOT NOT mess with the braiding mafia. Should they take a stance, I believe they have more control over the situation than the show management.
IIRC, TS tried to take on the braiders at Indio one year by asking them for a % of their income. Same with shoers, vets, etc. I think it was only the braiders who had the cahones to stand their ground.

[magnolia73]

It's kind of sad since that is revenue for braiders who aren't exactly millionaires. You could always.... ummm- learn to braid if it hits the pocket book that hard.

And how much would it suck to get a killer picture with an unbraided horse?

[monalisa]

I am not going to FL this year so this won't affect me and I don't show at any of the HITS shows or any of Bob Bell's shows in the regular season. But IMHO, the show managers are in for a rude awakening this year when their entries are off by 40% (just my guess, but I can assure you they will be off by a large number). Just like everyone else, they are going to have to learn to adjust to the new reality out there.

I have heard of BNTs who currently have one customer lined up for FL this year - when they typically take 30+ horses. People are taking their horses home, me included. The money is not there and if you do have it you don't want to spend it.

Puttiing the braiders out as their "sacrificial lamb" is not the answer. People can learn to braid, as many have mentioned, to save money.

[shedllybip]

everybody seems to be picking on Tom for this one. didn't you notice WEF was also mentioned? the greatest almighty end-all be-all horse show (WEF) is also saying no braiding.

[horsechick]

this just makes me want to take a stand in the OTHER direction. Braid for every class, every time. I love my braider, and it really makes me angry that they can unilaterally make a decision that may cause my braider to go to shows elsewhere.

Do you think TS and MB could braid my horse for the 1st years when my braider decides not to come down??:winkgrin:

[Fluffie]

I have ALWAYS wondered why this is. The barn I used to board at had a reining show every year, a big one, and they gave away two brand new TRAILERS as prizes. Plus, some of the classes had hardly any entries and still got huge checks. My old friend used to show in reining locally, and she would go in a class of five, get third, and win $300... where are they getting it? :lol:

Sponsorships/donated prizes :yes:

[clearound]

everybody seems to be picking on Tom for this one. didn't you notice WEF was also mentioned? the greatest almighty end-all be-all horse show (WEF) is also saying no braiding.

I can only wonder whether the Belissimo's horses will be braided!

[Giddy-up]

Mane and tail for me is $100 per day...I get a slight discount because I have two horses showing. A mane alone is $70.

:eek: Where are you showing it's $70 for a mane? I bet I know some braiders who might be willing to re-locate for that. :lol:

[Klang34]

:eek: Where are you showing it's $70 for a mane? I bet I know some braiders who might be willing to re-locate for that. :lol:

ussually braiders that stick with certain barns charge that. it's nothing compared to what bigger barns pay for just a mane, let alone the mane and tail, 4 days a week... ;)

[Klang34]

Sponsorships/donated prizes :yes:

yea because the sponsers and people who doante at those shows and in that circuit are a little more humble with their money and where it goes to. most of the people who show on those circuits dont spend the amount people do on the a circuit for a string of horses each class/division.

I spoke to friend who shows on the AQHA circuit and she said it's a whole different world in terms of where the money is going. People she competes against are most of the time kids who bring their horses to shows right out of the back yard and clean them up to look good and do really well.

THAT's why those sponsers want to donate Trailers and bigs checks, because THOSE kids deserve it!

I don't know if anyone can see my point on this but it makes sense to me. If I were to donate a $15,000 trailer, who would you donate it to? The kid with no money trying her heart out to make her and her horse look the best, or the kid who rides 7 horses a show and doesnt even untack the horse when she's done or get to the barn at 5am to braid, bath, and lounge like the other girl i mentioned earlier...

[Comfortably Numb]

The sponsers, or sponsors if you wanted to spell it correctly do not donate prizes based on who will win them. The trailer companies, etc. use these awards as advertising. They don't care who wins them.

[chawley]

I'm sorry, eliminating braiding isn't lowering costs...it's putting a band-aid on a gaping wound. And, how many exhibitors that braid to earn money for entries will be hurt by this?

I don't got to Florida, but my trainer used to go every year, and I know others who do go yearly, so I'm aware of the cost. But, it's not just Florida. The cost for rated shows everywhere has gotten too high, in my opinion. I didn't attend any A shows this year due to economics, but did compete in two local circuits with R judges and many A barns competing. These local shows somehow manage to keep costs reasonable compared to the average A show. So that being said, if the local shows can do it, and AQHA can do it, why can't USEF rated shows lower their costs?

I'm not sure about other regions, but around here, even the big barns are cutting back. Several A shows that I have attended in the past were cancelled due to low entries. But, the local series have exploded. The two series mentioned above increased their entires 30-40 percent from last year. I see this trend continuing unless these large A show managers do more for exhibitors than just wave braiding!

[Sandy M]

Oh yeah, going to WEF is going to be sooooo much more affordable now that I can save on the cost of braiding. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Um, how about lowering entry fees? Or maybe the cost of stalls. :yes::yes:


I am so impressed at these efforts to save us money. Jesh! I do my own braiding. Cost: Whatever the braiding materials cost and 40 mins of my time. Voila! No braiding expense per se.

[Ruby G. Weber]

This is as transparent as the Big 3 automakers driving their hybrids to DC after having blown it by private jetting there the first time.

Two of the three Big 3 show managers increased their stall fees for 2009. You think for a second they didn't know what was happening on The Steet? What a pitiful attempt at showing compassion for their customers and at some one else's expense! How about a discount for stalls paid before the close of entries? How about a moratorium on scratch fees? How about free parking? How about paying prize money at the end of the show not the next week or "within thirty days."?

[Smiles]

I don't got to Florida, but my trainer used to go every year, and I know others who do go yearly, so I'm aware of the cost. But, it's not just Florida. The cost for rated shows everywhere has gotten too high, in my opinion!


Totally agree with you there. I could understand raising fees if you are offering something more to the exibitors but most of the time the fees get raised and they are doing less for more. Raising stall fees but don't bother to fix or repair the same crappy stall that have been in the facility for 30 some years... Raise costs on division and entry fees but give back less money, use crappy ribbons, and prizes. Here is a thought give back to the exhibitors because soon you won't have us coming to your shows because you charged to much. :rolleyes:

[luvs2ridewbs]

So are braiders going to boycott the big 3 and go to some of the smaller winter circuits? It seems like they should since these shows are screwing them over.

[Midge]

If I went somewhere else, I would be screwing my customers, not the show managers. It is nothing to management if I an there or not or if my customers braid or not. My customers however, expect me to be there, so there I am.

[invogue*]

I think it's well established that you do NOT NOT NOT mess with the braiding mafia. Should they take a stance, I believe they have more control over the situation than the show management.

You are VERY right!

A few years back at a horse show in canada, the show managment decided it was going to be too expensive to have a generator to supply lights for all the tent stalls at one of the non permenent horse show grounds. I guess they assumed us braiders had out tiny little head lights(which might i mention provide not nearly enough light for us to see the horses mane at 1 am) would be enough. Well all the braiders got together and decided none of the horses were getting braided until we had lights. We left notes appologising to all our accounts but that it is impossible to braid in the pitch black. Well you can bet all the BNTS threw quiet a stink the next day when they showed up and their 4' hunters we not braided. Moral of the story, dont make your braider angry!

That being said, I braid horses for a living and as much as people think we are the best paid people on the show grounds they dont always take into consideration that we travel all over north america following our clients to provide our braiding services for them. You wouldnt belive my bills for gas, hotels and even my cost for wool! It all adds up and in the end we really arent making a fortune. But it does pay the bills and this cut back is really going to hurt us ! why must they hurt the little guys! I am already strugling trying to find enough horses to braid this winter as alot of my regular accounts are staying home this winter!

[Giddy-up]

So are braiders going to boycott the big 3 and go to some of the smaller winter circuits? It seems like they should since these shows are screwing them over.

The braiders aren't going to screw over their clients. They might lose a little winter braiding, but it's not worth losing an entire account forever.

Don't forget--they are only saying optional. People may still braid anyways. And once a horse doesn't win & the trainer tells the owner it's cause it wasn't braided, then you can bet that horse will be braided regardless next time.

[sarcam02]

I was able to show as a junior and offset costs because I was able to braid. I see less and less braiding and I think it is a real shame.

I know that we are going to about half as many shows this year I will braid for all of them. I will also take this opportunity to begin teaching my teach my ten and eight year old kids this great and dying art. IMHO This is a great year to get back to the basics of horsemanship.

[VirginiaBred]

Show management needs a wake up call. They are so reluctant to lower any of THEIR fees, but are jumping for joy at pointing the finger elsewhere.

Give me a break.

[christmasfarm]

christmasfarm



Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Posts: 7

Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:54 pm Post subject: Gulfport economics

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

being a Harrison Co Mississippi taxpayer, here's a couple tidbits to mull over about Bob and Janet's particular situation:
1) Harrison County Fairgrounds is a public facility, built and maintanenced by county taxpayers. Entities such as the Gulf Coast Winter Classics RENT the facility.
2) Last time I checked, rental for the entire facility was $300 a day, plus $5 per day for each permanent stall used. (Go ahead, feel free to do the math.)
3) Yearly improvements - paving roads, camper spots, adding pvc *, adding rings, tent pads - this is all taxpayer money, not Bob's. He and Janet make up a wish list every year, then the county does that work in the couple months before the show commences. Bob and Janet have even approached the Mississippi state legislature about putting in a coliseum at the fairgrounds, paid for with a bond issue (wait! did i say, NOT BOB'S MONEY?)
if anyone is in a position to help the dear, beleaguered exhibitor "save" money, wouldn't it be someone who doesn't have to pay for the upkeep or improvement of their facility?
Cat Wolstenholme, Up All Nite LLC braiding, christmasfarm@juno.com

Back to top

[christmasfarm]

of course braiding is optional, always has been, there is no rule in the book requiring braiding, except for the ladies side-saddle appointments class. lots of people already don't braid for unrated divisions, and i'm the first to suggest this to my customers who need to save money. who wants to braid a wiggly baby green anyway? to me this is not the point, the point is about these millionaire show managers singling out working stiffs like us braiders. the letter refers to "ways" (plural) to save the exhibitor money, but then discusses only one. let's come up with others:
1) don't do the warm-up class, or division, do the ticketed warm up. be sure to tell them in the show office that you WOULD have done those modifieds, but you need to save money
2) go with steel keg shoes, out of the box. better yet, try barefoot.
3) Don't buy that new show coat - your old barn sweater will do. In fact, don't patronize any of the vendors - save money.
4) Put down only two bags of shavings. He's tough.
5) Don't buy tack or grooming stalls - plenty of room in the aisles and between tents.
6) Cut back on number of grooms, or better yet, do without. we're all dying to get there to muck a 5 a.m., right?
7) Only school with your trainer one day of the division. Put yourself in the ring the second day, good teaching should carry over 24 hours, right?
8) go with Motel 6. those creeps hanging out out back? they won't bother your kids . . . .
9) Feed only grass hay, and ration it; those hunters are all too fat anyway. Cut back on grain consumption, too, less lunging.

I could go on and on! Anyonbe else got some?

[Summit Springs Farm]

We ride with Don, so don't pick on him! :mad:

1st-He did not have anything to do with this decision, he commented on it, when he was asked, he responded in a very Politically Correct Way, not agreeing or disagreeing, just saying it was a step in the right direction. IE. reducing costs.

2nd- His day care costs are in line with everyone else that I know.

3rd- He is very aware of his clients costs and has been known to be more reasonable about things than some of the local trainers I've shown with.

4th- I am disgusted with the email, no skin off the show manager's back to recommend no braiding for divisions that most people don't braid for anyway.

How about reducing costs for all participants, like stall fees or office fees, etc...

[pwynnnorman]

In eventing, most stay only 2-3 nights, but stabling runs $120-150 in the east. I noticed in California, at one event it was only $95. One place in Georgia has a two-day schedule (dressage and stadium on Sat, XC on Sun), but still charges $125.

I'd like to understand how competitions figure stabling fees. I think it's somewhat insulting to hurt others rather than let your profits dip for a while. My farrier didn't raise his fees when gas went through the roof--he just took a pay cut. I had a shipper say the same thing: "We're just going to have to eat it for while." That guy held off raising his prices for as long as possible. I must admit this idea just doesn't show any real compassion.

[Go Fish]

:eek: Where are you showing it's $70 for a mane? I bet I know some braiders who might be willing to re-locate for that. :lol:

West Coast...$70 is the going rate...many charge more.

[Go Fish]

Don't forget--they are only saying optional. People may still braid anyways. And once a horse doesn't win & the trainer tells the owner it's cause it wasn't braided, then you can bet that horse will be braided regardless next time.[/QUOTE]

Let's reiterate this one more time...I mentioned it earlier. Show management isn't saying you CAN'T braid, they are simply saying you don't have to.

[WWCountry]

How about getting rid of all those "office fees" that have now become standard?? $75 a horse at a lot of shows. Why are we, the exhibitors, paying for office staff?? Are these shows not making enough money?? I'd rather send my horse to the ring braided. At least I'm getting something for my money.

[Molly99]

christmasfarm



Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Posts: 7

Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:54 pm Post subject: Gulfport economics

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

being a Harrison Co Mississippi taxpayer, here's a couple tidbits to mull over about Bob and Janet's particular situation:
1) Harrison County Fairgrounds is a public facility, built and maintanenced by county taxpayers. Entities such as the Gulf Coast Winter Classics RENT the facility.
2) Last time I checked, rental for the entire facility was $300 a day, plus $5 per day for each permanent stall used. (Go ahead, feel free to do the math.)
3) Yearly improvements - paving roads, camper spots, adding pvc *, adding rings, tent pads - this is all taxpayer money, not Bob's. He and Janet make up a wish list every year, then the county does that work in the couple months before the show commences. Bob and Janet have even approached the Mississippi state legislature about putting in a coliseum at the fairgrounds, paid for with a bond issue (wait! did i say, NOT BOB'S MONEY?)
if anyone is in a position to help the dear, beleaguered exhibitor "save" money, wouldn't it be someone who doesn't have to pay for the upkeep or improvement of their facility?
Cat Wolstenholme, Up All Nite LLC braiding, christmasfarm@juno.com

Back to top
That is a SWEET deal on the rental of the grounds. Most places I deal with start at $1000 a day, add in sound system (not included) per stall fee (min of $50 stall, more if the stall has to be cleaned afterward) extra rings, lights at night, emt, renting your own water truck and tractor/drag. The list goes on and on.

Not all managers have this kind of deal. Most, in reality, just break even. Now the big circuits that is a different deal, but please don't take your frustrations out on the rest of us managers that are also just trying to make a living.

[horsegurl]

West Coast...$70 is the going rate...many charge more.

Are paying $70 per horse, or per mane? I don't know anyone who is charging $70 per mane! Nor Cal rates are $45 mane/ $25 Tail, and So Cal rates are $50per mane.

[Go Fish]

Per mane. Going rate for a mane and tail is $100. I'll repeat, I get a slight discount from the braider because I have two horses braided each day. I'd be interested to know what others are paying on the big circuits...HITS Thermal, etc. and WEF. I can't recall now what I paid at Thermal last year, but it was substantial.

All this being said, my braider is the best...one of my horses is a rubber and he can't get her braids out. And, she deliberately braids him as late in the morning as she can so his braids look fresh each day. I really appreciate her service so I don't begrudge her the money she charges. My horses look fantastic.

[Midge]

My rates are the same at every show. Regular customers are $45/30. Outside customers are 50/30. If I have to pul the mane in order to braid it, I charge $15. If I am just tidying the mane for my own benefit, there is no charge. I don't charge out any expenses. A good number of braiders charge 50/30.

[Go Fish]

Just looked up my records from Thermal last year. One horse, shown two days each week for 4 weeks, mane and tail braided each day. Bill was $800 for 8 total braid jobs.

[Go Fish]

My rates are the same at every show. Regular customers are $45/30. Outside customers are 50/30. If I have to pul the mane in order to braid it, I charge $15. If I am just tidying the mane for my own benefit, there is no charge. I don't charge out any expenses. A good number of braiders charge 50/30.

Hi Midge - I don't know what part of the country you're from, but your charge for outside customers is not far off from what I'm paying. I make sure my horses' manes are pulled accordingly, but I don't think my braider charges extra for tidying a mane.

[clearound]

My rates are the same at every show. Regular customers are $45/30. Outside customers are 50/30. If I have to pul the mane in order to braid it, I charge $15. If I am just tidying the mane for my own benefit, there is no charge. I don't charge out any expenses. A good number of braiders charge 50/30.


Based upon personal experience, Midge is worth every cent of what she charges!

[Midge]

I start the year at WEF, then spend most of the summer in the southeast, with a trip the Kentucky sometimes, then Indoors in the fall.

[Go Fish]

I was talking with a friend today at the barn about this issue. She had a different perspective. She thinks that horses showing in the unrated classes early in the day as a warmup, and will be showing later in the rated divisions, will be braided. She thinks that horses that show in the unrated divisions only are probably young horses that are there for the experience and probably wouldn't be braided anyway. Food for thought...

[Midge]

Based upon personal experience, Midge is worth every cent of what she charges!


Well, some horses ARE more special than others. :D

[braids]

Amazing posts, Thanks first for all the loyalty, Nice to know our customers do love us. We don't mind if you would like to braid your own to save money ,that's not an issue . But truly amazing the management as an idea to save money but it does not involve them.So easy to cut something that has nothing to do with their purse strings ,sounds so familiar .How about 2 for 1 stalls like the car dealers are offering now , or lowering the jumper nominating fee which is for the prize money the horse show pays you back when you win ,um ?How about some cut in office , or non showing fee's, or shaving. Maybe some riders can save money by staying 3 star rooms and eating some meals at home and packing lunches instead of the 20 dollar lunch, to defray some costs . Maybe share a place with a friend or rent a room in a home and meet someone new!
I have been braiding over 25 years and have saved my customers lots of money as I have rescued many cast , loose , sick ,thirsty ,horses and ponies not to mention calling both owners and Vets during the night due to injured horses that might not have made it through the night.How about the tail wrap some child has forgotten to take off or the blankets we have straightened. So besides making each horse beautiful for the next day while they are totally relaxed , braiders are added personal security for your precious animals.
So if we don't braid the horses this will affect , the photographer and video people as well . Who wants a picture or video of your fancy hunter going around the ring at one of these big shows un braided. That would really be impressive and complete the picture . Not really looking the part.
We all have to cut back , maybe leave in the braids, ouch for the horse . Car pool , pack our lunches , stay with a roommate , buy a large bottle of water instead of 2 cases, take off the front of a temp stall and make 2 grooming stalls ,but lets work this out .We that braid have stayed late many a day {after a long night}for a horse or pony that was not on their list ,maybe even one of yours . So Please don't cut us out . I'm traveling from Colorado to Wellington this year to keep these "old 'bones warm. So I anyone would like to make my holiday a little brighter I still need more work in Wellington . Lets try and have some Happy Holidays and thanks again to all of our the loyal supporters .

[ExJumper]

I have been braiding over 25 years and have saved my customers lots of money as I have rescued many cast , loose , sick ,thirsty ,horses and ponies not to mention calling both owners and Vets during the night due to injured horses that might not have made it through the night.

I don't know you personally, but I wanted to give a general "thank you" for all that you do (meaning the braiders in general) above and beyond the call of duty. My lease horse had a seizure one very early morning and if the braiders hadn't been there to let us know and to tell us what happened I don't know WHAT we would have done...

Our braider always tosses our guys a flake of hay when she's done, and on the FEW times we've been able to only come for a 1/2 day, she's tossed them a grain pail as well. Braiders, in general, are some of the nices people I've ever met!

You guys are WAY better than night check!

[gcclassic]

In response to Christmasfarms’s posts on the subject of braiding, I feel that a few points need to be clarified. First, I thank christmasfarm for all her past support of the Gulfport Shows, she has as mentioned sponsored portions of our event and we appreciate that. I do need to let everyone know that the aforementioned casino contact that she was so very helpful to introduce us to never developed into any Casino Sponsorship dollars. In fact we have NO Casino Sponsorships. The attitude of the Casinos is that we will have our horse show and our exhibitors will come to their Casinos, so why should they spend any sponsor money on our event. I have had two casino sponsorships in the 10 years of this event. $7,500 one time sponsorship brought to me by my friend Chef Johnny, who was that casino’s executive chef at the time and a $4,000 one time program ad and banner sponsorship that I sold in 2003. Our sponsor coordinator sells a few program ads each year to certain casinos which brings in about $2,500. So as you can see there is not and has never been much Casino support for our event.

I also am a Harrison County, MS resident/taxpayer and need to clarify some misconceptions about the public fairgrounds facility. First, we do rent the facility, but our fee schedule and contract is not the same as the card rate, which is meant for the smaller local and regional events. We pay more for the day rate, stalls, services, and campers spots than other events. We also have shared improvement costs with the county on several of the larger and more expensive projects. The Harrison County Fairgrounds has 280 permanent stalls, all the rest of the 1,100 stalls on the grounds are temporary stalls under tents. These are costly and have to be paid for each week whether or not they are occupied. In fact we deliberately kept our fees the same for 2009 except for the stall fee which was raised $25 to off set the increase in price by the tent company. We are also working on our own release which will include several more money saving options for our circuit that will reduce actual showing fees for our exhibitors.

As mentioned, I am working, by their request, with community leaders, at my own personal expense, architectural drawings, presentation materials, and travel, to build an indoor stadium, but it is far from a coliseum. In fact, if ever done, it will be a metal building with a nice front façade approximately 2,500 seats and 500 stalls. This has evolved for several reasons. The facility would like to add 500 stalls, but to do so without improving the arena situation for other breed and association shows makes no sense. The fairgrounds hosts a variety of different events including equine shows, concerts, trade shows, festivals, dog shows, etc and all could expand and larger events bid on if an indoor arena was added. Also, since Hurricane Katrina the population and growth to this part of the county has increased quite a bit and this new addition would also have a community center aspect to it so that it could be used by the residents for various local functions. This project has only been discussed; there are no concrete plans at this time.

Some one did “the math” and decided that we make $3,000,000 in profit each year. I will tell you that I am a full financial partner in our winter circuit and have put my money up each year to get the circuit going and I have never come close to earning $3,000,000 in all the 10 years of our circuit. That means adding profit, if any (yes, there have been some lean years), for all 10 years, still nowhere near $3,000,000. I am very proud of what we have done with my crazy winter circuit in Mississippi idea, and we work very hard to produce a safe, fun, and exhibitor friendly event.

I would like to thank christmasfarm again for all support and for every horse that she has ever braided for me. Her work is exceptional! I hope that everyone will have a successful winter.

[TweedADeedle]

How about cutting stall cost or a lower rate for those who ship in for just the weekend? And the 'C' rated divisions be a notable difference from the payout divisions.

[Dana]

Bob,

Thanks for taking the time to post a reply to this thread.

Firstly, let me say that I've never been to your shows in Gulfport, but have heard nothing but good things about them. It's obvious from the comments I've heard that you are putting on a class show.

Now, I find it very interesting that you mention that you're working on several other options to save exhibitors dollars at your shows this year. Why, then, is the first press release we all got about "saving money" at the winter circuits was specifically directed at taking money away from the braiders and mentioned NOTHING about any other ideas that were in the works to save exhibitors money?

None of you guys are stupid (obviously), so you surely knew that that release would only be taken as an attack against the braiders while taking no responsibility for any of the increased fees at the shows. If, in fact, you do have other measures in the pipeline, why was there no mention of this in the press release? Why did you single out braiding as the major culprit in the exhorbitant costs of showing hunters? Where is any price break for the jumpers? All of this appears to just be a single-minded attack against the hard-working braiders. Makes no sense to me.

As has been mentioned before, besides providing a SERVICE to those trainers and exhibitors who CHOOSE not to braid their own horses, braiders (and the rest of us who are there all night) provide so many other services to exhibitors and the horse shows. From catching loose horses, contacting owners/trainers when a sick one is found, keeping eyes open for "strangers" who don't look like they belong at the show in the middle of the night, etc.

There are so many other areas where show management should be able to trim some fat, and pass that savings along to owners. I've been on your side of the fence. I've shown USEF and AQHA. Always amazed me that stalls at the same facility were normally twice as much for a USEF show as for an AQHA show. Why would that be?

Please, look long and hard at the entire picture before you start singling out a lone group of people before you clean your own house.

Dana

[Midge]

I have no idea why braiders have been singled out, but I do know Don Stewart, Bob Bell and Burtons have tried to do everything from limit braiding to banning it all together.

Braiding is like anything else in the world. You can do it yourself. If you can't do it yourself, you have to pay someone else to do it. I can't fix my own car. I have to pay someone to do it. But I am thinking I should learn how to install my own dishwasher, because THAT is damn expensive!

[gcclassic]

In response to Dana, it was not Bob who posted the response. For those who don't know, The Gulf Coast Classic Company that produces the Gulf Coast Winter Classics is owned jointly by Bob and me (Janet). I posted the response. I also have been working hard on the prize list and trying to keep our prices as low as possible, something we have always done. The other press release was done for us, and I do most of the stuff for Gulfport. I am one person with a lot of different jobs including taking care of my six horses and one mule (I do all care myself) and am in the middle of many large projects. So I am not as timely as a media company.

[Summit Springs Farm]

Well Janet, I think it is abundantly clear that the show managers could do something to reduce costs this year, in order to satisfy their client base.

Some have suggested reducing office fees,stall fees,prize money and/or division fees.

Why don't you take back that information and try to find a way to do it?

Personally I am taking less horses to reduce my costs, however if the stall fees were not so high I would take more.

Most people here want to show, but they obviously feel taken advantage of by these fees.

[gcclassic]

Well Summit Farm please sign up to receive emails from us and you will see what we are trying to do. I always only take the horses on the road that I can afford, as few as one as many as five. All mine and paid for by me. I have been doing this sport on a budget for 35+ years and I have never in all those years felt taken advantage of by fees as I am well aware of the cost before I go to a show. Each day that I can get up and be involved with my horses is a blessing and being able to show is even more so. I hope that if you show this winter that you will have a great time.

[kdriding]

I am by no means a wealthy person who can afford to have her daughter show where ever she wants. I work a 2nd job and every penny of that money goes into an account to pay for her showing and everything associated with it (it also bought her a very nice new WB this fall). We usually do 2 "AA" shows a season and the rest are local rated shows. One of our goals with her new horse is to make it to a winter show circuit at least once for a week or two. Several well known trainers in my area go the the Gulf Coast shows because many of the students family's are like me when it comes to finances. They can afford a couple big shows a year and a week or two at a winter circuit. These trainers choose the Gulf Coast vs WEF because it is more affordable. Maybe not because of the show itself, but because housing, rental, food, etc are more affordable. I have never been there so I don't know what all contributes to their thought pattern.

I am a parent who is looking into spending the thousands of dollars it costs to do a week or two at the Gulf Coasts winter shows hopefully in the next year or so. However, the press releases blew my mind and left a very sour taste in my mouth. I am also a braider (we will call that my third job). I know I am one person vs those who are fortunate enough to be able to frequent the winter show circuits on a regular basis, but every dollar counts in my world. So, imagine how this all looks to all the other people like me. Do I think the management at these shows really cares what I think, probably not. :no: I am no one special. I don't ride with an BNT, or have sponsors, or tons of money backing me up. BUT, maybe you just left a very bad taste in someone specials mouth. Maybe they are cutting back this season a little and that WILL affect your bottom line.

You CAN cut back on our bottom line to help people out, you just have to WANT TO. And I know all about bottoms lines. I helped my father run his business for years and there were many times that he didn't take a paycheck, nor did I so that someone with a family to feed could keep their job. I hope that steps are really be taken to help us and it isn't all smoke........

So I guess my overall point is that from the outside you managers are making yourselves out to look like a**holes. Go ahead, put the screws to the little guys, to hell with us. I will just take my not important money someplace else.....:no:

[ExJumper]

I think it would perhaps have been better if gcclassic hadn't posted her last snarky comment about how she only shows the horses he can afford to, which was clearly not summit's point. That post certainly didn't seem like a mature response from someone in a position of authority.

I have no dog in this fight. I keep my frozen little butt up in in Wisconsin and smile when the big guns go away to Florida and leave the winter rateds to us "poor" folk. But even I can see the crazy in the press release. Save $70, but not from us. Save it by not paying the braiders.

For posterity:

In response to Christmasfarms’s posts on the subject of braiding, I feel that a few points need to be clarified. First, I thank christmasfarm for all her past support of the Gulfport Shows, she has as mentioned sponsored portions of our event and we appreciate that. I do need to let everyone know that the aforementioned casino contact that she was so very helpful to introduce us to never developed into any Casino Sponsorship dollars. In fact we have NO Casino Sponsorships. The attitude of the Casinos is that we will have our horse show and our exhibitors will come to their Casinos, so why should they spend any sponsor money on our event. I have had two casino sponsorships in the 10 years of this event. $7,500 one time sponsorship brought to me by my friend Chef Johnny, who was that casino’s executive chef at the time and a $4,000 one time program ad and banner sponsorship that I sold in 2003. Our sponsor coordinator sells a few program ads each year to certain casinos which brings in about $2,500. So as you can see there is not and has never been much Casino support for our event.

I also am a Harrison County, MS resident/taxpayer and need to clarify some misconceptions about the public fairgrounds facility. First, we do rent the facility, but our fee schedule and contract is not the same as the card rate, which is meant for the smaller local and regional events. We pay more for the day rate, stalls, services, and campers spots than other events. We also have shared improvement costs with the county on several of the larger and more expensive projects. The Harrison County Fairgrounds has 280 permanent stalls, all the rest of the 1,100 stalls on the grounds are temporary stalls under tents. These are costly and have to be paid for each week whether or not they are occupied. In fact we deliberately kept our fees the same for 2009 except for the stall fee which was raised $25 to off set the increase in price by the tent company. We are also working on our own release which will include several more money saving options for our circuit that will reduce actual showing fees for our exhibitors.

As mentioned, I am working, by their request, with community leaders, at my own personal expense, architectural drawings, presentation materials, and travel, to build an indoor stadium, but it is far from a coliseum. In fact, if ever done, it will be a metal building with a nice front façade approximately 2,500 seats and 500 stalls. This has evolved for several reasons. The facility would like to add 500 stalls, but to do so without improving the arena situation for other breed and association shows makes no sense. The fairgrounds hosts a variety of different events including equine shows, concerts, trade shows, festivals, dog shows, etc and all could expand and larger events bid on if an indoor arena was added. Also, since Hurricane Katrina the population and growth to this part of the county has increased quite a bit and this new addition would also have a community center aspect to it so that it could be used by the residents for various local functions. This project has only been discussed; there are no concrete plans at this time.

Some one did “the math” and decided that we make $3,000,000 in profit each year. I will tell you that I am a full financial partner in our winter circuit and have put my money up each year to get the circuit going and I have never come close to earning $3,000,000 in all the 10 years of our circuit. That means adding profit, if any (yes, there have been some lean years), for all 10 years, still nowhere near $3,000,000. I am very proud of what we have done with my crazy winter circuit in Mississippi idea, and we work very hard to produce a safe, fun, and exhibitor friendly event.

I would like to thank christmasfarm again for all support and for every horse that she has ever braided for me. Her work is exceptional! I hope that everyone will have a successful winter.

In response to Dana, it was not Bob who posted the response. For those who don't know, The Gulf Coast Classic Company that produces the Gulf Coast Winter Classics is owned jointly by Bob and me (Janet). I posted the response. I also have been working hard on the prize list and trying to keep our prices as low as possible, something we have always done. The other press release was done for us, and I do most of the stuff for Gulfport. I am one person with a lot of different jobs including taking care of my six horses and one mule (I do all care myself) and am in the middle of many large projects. So I am not as timely as a media company.

Well Summit Farm please sign up to receive emails from us and you will see what we are trying to do. I always only take the horses on the road that I can afford, as few as one as many as five. All mine and paid for by me. I have been doing this sport on a budget for 35+ years and I have never in all those years felt taken advantage of by fees as I am well aware of the cost before I go to a show. Each day that I can get up and be involved with my horses is a blessing and being able to show is even more so. I hope that if you show this winter that you will have a great time.

[Summit Springs Farm]

Thank you ExJumper. My point had nothing to do with my ability to afford to horse show.

And kdriding I agree with you.

gcclassics I have now signed up for the email blasts.

And BTW that's great you have been able to horse show for 35 years, you must be successful in your business, oh yea, you are a show manager, guess you are making a good living!

[gcclassic]

Actually ex jumper, that was not meant to be snarky but just a fact. I am sorry if anyone took it that way. I have worked hard all of my life for the privilege of doing this sport, like most of you. I do believe that it is a blessing to be able to have my horses and to participate in horse shows.
I don't normally read or post on these forums, and only did so because I was told of the things being said about my contract with the Harrison County Fairgrounds, my relationship to the local Casinos, and the amount of money earned by our circuit. All things that I felt needed to be clarified. Again, I am proud of our circuit and what we have accomplished and I hope everyone that comes this year will enjoy all that we have to offer. As I am not a regular of these forums, this will be the last time I post on this subject. I will however be glad to hear from anyone that has a suggestion or thoughts about our circuit; you can go to our website www.classiccompany.com. I sincerely hope that you all have a Happy Holiday Season, a Blessed Christmas, a Wonderful New Year, and a Successful Winter Circuit wherever you may show.

[Nikki^]

gcclassic:

I love going to GP and would like to show there someday but the fees are way too high.

$200 a week for stalls??? I cannot afford that.
$35 service fee (What kind if service do I get from this fee? This is one fee you can drop.)
$15 Drug/USEF fee.
$30 Grounds fee (How about dropping it to $5?)
$12 Night time Security fee? (I can look after my horse)

So in order to show one week (Well, it's only 2 days worth) I have to pay $292.00 just to get my horse on the property? Insane! And it would be $352.00 a week if I don't belong to the USEF/USHJA.:eek:

How about you rent out daily stalls? Make one tent for those who want to ship in for 1 or 2 days? Or a weekend stall rate of $35 dollars? Ship in Friday morning and leave Sunday afternoon? I think that would attract a lot of customers who are in hauling distance but just want to rent a stall to do the weekend classes.

Some riders take care of their horses but work during the week. So with the weekend rate of $35.00 they can be at the show and take care of the horses. I would really like that and would show in GP if you had that option.:D

Another thing is to lower the class fees for unrated divisions. Since there isn't money being paid back to the rider, then instead of $150 for the division, make it $50? For rated divisions, how about upping the prize money by 20%? If you lower your fees and up the prize money, more people will come and show. I bet companies will even sponsor the classes. The more people who get interested in your shows, the better.

[justdandy]

I WAS contemplating doing Jacksonville for a couple of weekends, but not anymore. $200 for a stall, $195 for a "C" rated division? Let me guess, $12/bag for shavings, too? Sheesh!!! No, thank you. I'll stay home and freeze.

And I thought TS had some ridiculous fees.:eek:

[Giddy-up]

This is the one that drive me crazy. I was at KHP at 11 pm. doing my own night check. I was in my horse's stall kneeling down to check a bandage when the 'horse watch' person came by. My stall door was open about six inches. She marked the sheet hanging on my horse's stall and never looked in, never noticed the door open. I stuck my head out and watched her continue down the aisle not looking in the stalls. Just making her check mark.
I HAD to pay for that.

Usually they come by once & mark 3-4 hours worth of boxes when I have been watching. I'll get there super early & note my horse's card hasn't been checked off the last couple slots. While I am out bathing or doing something, I come back only to notice suddenly my horse's card is completely filled in for the night. And they even remember which times he was eating or laying down. :rolleyes:

[Smiles]

Night watch and grounds fee have got to be the bigest b.s. that the exhitors have to pay. Sorry but the horse show should absorb some of the costs to put on the friggen shows. Like the other posters have mentioned the people who do the watch are just marking the paper and are not even doing their job.

Isn't there a new rule this year that shows have to offer at least the cost of the class to the last place person for jumper classes? I know it doesn't take care of that lovely nom fee but if you place you should at least get the money you paid for the class back.

[MLP]

This is the one that drive me crazy. I was at KHP at 11 pm. doing my own night check. I was in my horse's stall kneeling down to check a bandage when the 'horse watch' person came by. My stall door was open about six inches. She marked the sheet hanging on my horse's stall and never looked in, never noticed the door open. I stuck my head out and watched her continue down the aisle not looking in the stalls. Just making her check mark.
I HAD to pay for that.

Not to diss the night watch but I ABSOLUTELY know that the braiders definitely keep an eye out in addition to the night watch. I don't mind so much paying, but I do think that the braiders help difuss alot of issues too.

[Jest]

Well, its good to know that I am not the only one who is completely offended by the Big Show Managers press release.

After having spent literally thousands last year at WEF, I was kicking around the idea of trying a different circuit. Gulf Port was my first choice. After reading the smart-a$$ remarks from their representative I think I'll take a pass. Yeah, I think we all know how much a show is going to cost. Yeah, I think we all know what we can and can't afford to do. I don't think we need to be reminded of that reality.

I think what has happened here is that their service oriented business has become all about making the money but not about what we get back as exhibitors. Frankly, every dime we pay in fees, stabling, entries, and nominations covers all of the expenses of a show and then some. I would never begrudge anyone making a buck, and certainly as the promoter of the event all managers should, but to not come up with any realistic way to save us money from your bottom line is just ridiculous.

If these economic times had not hit us upside the heads like it has, I am not sure we would be talking about this. It is long past due. We don't show....they have nothing to manage. We don't show we don't need the extra USEF/USHJA fees that were thrust on us. When did a service industry become the almighty Oz?

In a perfect world, we should put a moratorium on showing until the big guys take notice of it where it really hurts them.

[InWhyCee Redux]

Excuse me? When I was showing in lowly 4H shows, arriving unbraided was unacceptable — yes, we had to braid own horse with our very own hands! Imagine! :eek:

[wally1]

It sounds extra hard on the braiders, maybe an all around reduction in all horse showing costs would make more sense.

Keep the volume up with slightly smaller profit margins vs low volume and no profit margins.

Why give people an excuse not to show by not reducing more horse show prices. Package things more attractively. The challenge is how to get people in the gate.

[Fluffie]

Excuse me? When I was showing in lowly 4H shows, arriving unbraided was unacceptable — yes, we had to braid own horse with our very own hands! Imagine! :eek:

And when you were so proudly showing, did you have two horses that had to be fed, bathed, lunged, and tacked up for both to be ready to walk in the ring at 7:30 am with NO groom/help? ;) Having a braider isn't due to laziness or lack of ability necessarily.

[chunky munky]

I am afraid it looks like few of you have ever sat down to figure out what it costs to put on a horse show. The grounds rental is the least of it. Look around one day and do a nose count of how many employees are working at the horse show. Judges, course designers, stewards, announcers, secretaries, awards coordinators, hospitality managers, caterers, garbage men, stall muckers to clean between usage,ring crew, stabling manager, vets, farriers, emt's, starters, electricians, feed concession guys, ad nauseum. The list is endless. Then remember that you have to pay not just those salaries, but also their housing and transportation to get them there and home. Then there are rental cars, ring maintenace equipment (tractors, drags, water trucks and the men to run them) not to mention gas. Purchasing awards. Ribbons alone are a huge expense when there are so many rings and classes. Prize money. Insurance. Electric bill, water bill. Portable stalls are extremely expensive. The errection of them and the take down is done by a village of guys.
I don't think Janet's post was rude at all, just a reality test. The fact is that hores shows fall into that category (as do many other things) that you have to pay to play. It is too bad that is the case, but these are the facts.
Personally I think braiding has always been optional and will remain that way. I think that most people will choose to braid. Perhaps not necessary to mandate it one way or the other.

[ExJumper]

I am afraid it looks like few of you have ever sat down to figure out what it costs to put on a horse show. The grounds rental is the least of it. Look around one day and do a nose count of how many employees are working at the horse show. Judges, course designers, stewards, announcers, secretaries, awards coordinators, hospitality managers, caterers, garbage men, stall muckers to clean between usage,ring crew, stabling manager, vets, farriers, emt's, starters, electricians, feed concession guys, ad nauseum. The list is endless. Then remember that you have to pay not just those salaries, but also their housing and transportation to get them there and home. Then there are rental cars, ring maintenace equipment (tractors, drags, water trucks and the men to run them) not to mention gas. Purchasing awards. Ribbons alone are a huge expense when there are so many rings and classes. Prize money. Insurance. Electric bill, water bill. Portable stalls are extremely expensive. The errection of them and the take down is done by a village of guys.
I don't think Janet's post was rude at all, just a reality test. The fact is that hores shows fall into that category (as do many other things) that you have to pay to play. It is too bad that is the case, but these are the facts.
Personally I think braiding has always been optional and will remain that way. I think that most people will choose to braid. Perhaps not necessary to mandate it one way or the other.

Fine then. Lets assume that there is no way for the shows to cut costs for the competitors. Then lets not have them make a big show of doing something so freaking pseudo-altruistic like saying people don't have to braid. It's offensive that they think people aren't going to see what's really going on and whose pockets that "decision" is really affecting.

If you can't lower costs, then don't But don't come back and say, "If you all sleep in your cars you will save hundreds of dollars in hotel costs!" like they are doing us a big favor.

[clearound]

This is the one that drive me crazy. I was at KHP at 11 pm. doing my own night check. I was in my horse's stall kneeling down to check a bandage when the 'horse watch' person came by. My stall door was open about six inches. She marked the sheet hanging on my horse's stall and never looked in, never noticed the door open. I stuck my head out and watched her continue down the aisle not looking in the stalls. Just making her check mark.
I HAD to pay for that.


Years ago, there was a horse that was "reported" sleeping who was in fact dead!

[Horseymama]

I love going to GP and would like to show there someday but the fees are way too high.

$200 a week for stalls??? I cannot afford that.
$35 service fee (What kind if service do I get from this fee? This is one fee you can drop.)
$15 Drug/USEF fee.
$30 Grounds fee (How about dropping it to $5?)
$12 Night time Security fee? (I can look after my horse)

So in order to show one week (Well, it's only 2 days worth) I have to pay $292.00 just to get my horse on the property? Insane! And it would be $352.00 a week if I don't belong to the USEF/USHJA.:eek:

How about you rent out daily stalls? Make one tent for those who want to ship in for 1 or 2 days? Or a weekend stall rate of $35 dollars? Ship in Friday morning and leave Sunday afternoon? I think that would attract a lot of customers who are in hauling distance but just want to rent a stall to do the weekend classes.

Some riders take care of their horses but work during the week. So with the weekend rate of $35.00 they can be at the show and take care of the horses. I would really like that and would show in GP if you had that option.:D



$200 a week is cheap if you're going to Thermal! There it is:

$220 tent stall
$75 horse deposit
$150 jumper nomination
$50 office fee
$15 Drug/USEF fee

So, if you have a jumper, you're in over $500 before you enter even one class, or even buy one bag of shavings! I'm with you on the weekend fee idea. At Thermal, the "Non-Stabling Fee" is the same as the weekly tent stall. Why couldn't you haul-in for the weekend if you wanted and pay less?

We got a letter from HITS Thermal the other day saying they are now offering to sell 1/2 circuit permanent stalls for $550/week instead of $750/week! Gee, thanks! Personally, I can't imagine being able to afford either one!

[InWhyCee Redux]

And when you were so proudly showing, did you have two horses that had to be fed, bathed, lunged, and tacked up for both to be ready to walk in the ring at 7:30 am with NO groom/help? ;) Having a braider isn't due to laziness or lack of ability necessarily.
_________

NO OFFENSE. I did not mean to imply people who hire braiders are lazy or incapable. As a working adult, I do not know where I would find the time to do a proper braid job if I had to! (I am, however, amazed at the number of juniors I have met who cannot feed, groom, lunge, bathe, and tack ONE horse for the ring, let alone two.)

PS: BTW, I did have a groom back in the day — her name was Mom! ;)

[Nikki^]

I am afraid it looks like few of you have ever sat down to figure out what it costs to put on a horse show. The grounds rental is the least of it. Look around one day and do a nose count of how many employees are working at the horse show. la gardenia farm The list is endless. Then remember that you have to pay not just those salaries, but also their housing and transportation to get them there and home. Then there are rental cars, ring maintenace equipment (tractors, drags, water trucks and the men to run them) not to mention gas. Purchasing awards. Ribbons alone are a huge expense when there are so many rings and classes. Prize money. Insurance. Electric bill, water bill. Portable stalls are extremely expensive. The errection of them and the take down is done by a village of guys.
I don't think Janet's post was rude at all, just a reality test. The fact is that hores shows fall into that category (as do many other things) that you have to pay to play. It is too bad that is the case, but these are the facts.
Personally I think braiding has always been optional and will remain that way. I think that most people will choose to braid. Perhaps not necessary to mandate it one way or the other.

Then how come when local shows hosts a show, it cost me $80 max for the stall, gounds fee and the classes?

They have "R" rated judges, course designers, stewards, announcers, secretaries, awards coordinators, hospitality managers, caterers, garbage men, stall muckers to clean between usage,ring crew, stabling manager, vets, farriers, riding ring cleaners/waters and EMT's.

The ribbons are gorgeous and the prizes for champions are awesome. I won a Dover fleece lined bridle bag with PHJA Champion on it.

[ef80]

We got a letter from HITS Thermal the other day saying they are now offering to sell 1/2 circuit permanent stalls for $550/week instead of $750/week! Gee, thanks! Personally, I can't imagine being able to afford either one!

I laughed when I saw that same letter as that's just a little less than what a lot of folks in my area pay for a MONTH of board. (Of course the monthly bill runs up over $1200 because everything is a la carte, but that's a different story :lol: )

$550/week? Come-fricking-on. Maybe it makes me old, but some of these same shows that are charing absurd amounts today were charging $80/week not too terribly long ago.

[MintHillFarm]

Yes, I agree with Missinthesouth and Katie16. How about something back from the pocketbook of the show itself? Maybe a discount for a warmup class, or a lunch coupon at a vendor if you spend xxx $. A gesture that actually gives the impression that they care and are willing to take a small hit (no pun intended). A bit nervy to say don't spend the money on braiding.

[chunky munky]

Then how come when local shows hosts a show, it cost me $80 max for the stall, gounds fee and the classes?

They have "R" rated judges, course designers, stewards, announcers, secretaries, awards coordinators, hospitality managers, caterers, garbage men, stall muckers to clean between usage,ring crew, stabling manager, vets, farriers, riding ring cleaners/waters and EMT's.

The ribbons are gorgeous and the prizes for champions are awesome. I won a Dover fleece lined bridle bag with PHJA Champion on it.

The most obvious answer is they don't have to give out 18,000-25,000K prize money. Local shows do not give USEF points. I love local horse shows and support them. We are comparing apples to oranges. I think that the shows you are happy with and love should continue to be supported because they appear to be great shows for what your needs and many others needs are, and obviously the needs or desires of many competitors. The more local shows are perfect as they are, and maybe the show world will especially in this economy head in that direction. That is probably a great thing.:)

[80s rider]

This is an OLD show bill that I came across one day while cleaning out some boxes.
3-9-1986 HITS IV Venice, FL.
Childrens Htr. Div. 60.00
15-17 Eq. Div. 40.00
AHSA Huntseat Medal class 20.00
ASPCA Horsemanship Class 20.00
entry total 140.00
drug fee 4.00
stall 75.00
warm up rounds 8.00 x2 16.00
bedding 16.50


I totally understand inflation, but if this show could run in the 80's without all the "extra fees" back then-why not now?

[Elouise]

Ok - why am I not going to the warmth of a winter circuit...

Yes, braiding prices have gone up, but so have the stalls fees, the paddock fees, my trainer's fees and the price of shipping has not gone down with the price of diesel.

My husband has a pretty decent job (knock wood), but he averages a 3% raise. When the stall fees, braiding, shipping and trainer fees go up EVERY YEAR at rates of 10-25%. Who the heck can keep up.

Last year (all inclusive, but since I did not show - so no hotel for me) I spent $15K for my horse to show in two unrated divisions for three weeks and he was on the show grounds for 5 weeks. I won a few ribbons that cost the horse show about $1.09 . Wow, that was worth it!

If stall, trainer, braiding and hauling went up the same amount as my husband's pay check (less what our Uncle Sam takes) - then you'd see me.

Everyone in the industry has to get real.

[brynleigh]

I braid some to help pay for my horses to be at the shows, unfortunately I end up braiding for people that do the pre-childrens/adult hunters at a lot of shows, since I am low on the braiding totem pole. By management mandating that there is no need to braid for these classes I end up not being able to subsidize my income enough to afford to show. Which all of the money seems to go back to the horse show.

I agree with the night watch fee being stupid, If i am out braiding I am constantly going by and checking my horses. One year in Kentucky my horse got out some how and night watch just walked by and checked him off as being in the stall, not to mention the door was open. It took me several hours to find my horse no thanks to night watch. Another gripe with night watch is that they should be required to check the paddocks at night also which they don't usually do. So not only do I check my horse myself but I am paying for a service that I don't receive at all if my horses are out at night.

[Dana]

Well, I HAVE been on the management side of some really big shows (AQHA and ApHC) that were run at the same facilities where USEF shows are held. Since I had a horse, at that time, that was doing the H/J stuff, I KNOW the difference in prices in stalls (for one example) between the two shows. I knew how much the facility was charging for stalls and how much the shows were then charging the exhibitors. Stall fees are a HUGE cash cow for horse shows.

Interesting on the note from Thermal for the 1/2 circuit permanent stalls. The first year in Thermal, the permanent barns were sold out. Last year, there were permanent stalls that didn't have horses in them the entire circuit. To me, it sounds like more and more Thermal exhibitors are talking with their checkbooks!

Dana

[Summit Springs Farm]

Just received a price list for 2 A shows in January at Wills Park in Alpharetta,Ga.
Get this stall fees $135, service fee $35,USEF $15 (as always) but that's it for fees, no night check fee or any others.
The stall fee for hunter breeding and non rated beginner divisions is $70.

That is much less expensive than the other shows we've been posting about.

Pregreen,adults,ss,open,prechild/preadult,modified only $125

ponys $130

jrs $150

I'm definitely taking my yearling to do the hunter breeding! My pregreen horse is already in FL and will be doing Jacksonville those weeks.

[Comfortably Numb]

I get po'ed that you are charged night watch whether you want it or not. And have seen the night watch people making their check marks without looking in the stall. How do I know this? I moved the sheet from a horse stall to the stall we keep our wheelbarrows and feed in. And let me tell you, some of the night watch people are scarier than Jason! I am glad other people are there braiding at night. Also, the damn "service fee" and "horse deposit" COME ON. What service? I would pay a service fee if it got me an express lane at the secretary office. And isn't a deposit refundable, like on bottles and cans?

[Ghazzu]

"horse deposit" COME ON.

I thought a "horse deposit" was a pile of manure.
Oh, wait! It is!:D

[Smiles]

Chunky Monkey explain to me this most big AA shows have sponsors. I can tell you that the shows by me have all the classics hunter/jumper and the grandprix covered by someone else. Plus the divisions that don't give out money cover all the rated ones and then some. So I ask if this stuff is sponsored not a lot of money is coming out of show managements pocket to fund that portion of the show. Also the same shows facility will have an aqha/apha show (insert other types of bigger show here), and there stall prices are cut in half compared to our stall prices. And yes aqha gives out price money and some nice prizes... Some of us do have an idea of what it is to put on a show... Were not saying they can't make a profit but some of the fees are way out of hand don't you think?

[chunky munky]

Contrary to popular beleif, when a class such as a 10K class is listed as sponsored by an entity, that rarely means that the full amount came out of that sponsors pocket. Some of it does for sure, but rarely all.
I am unfamiliar with the price structure of AQHA shows. What I assume is that other than the jumping classes which are a small percentage of the program, reining, or riding a pattern, many of the classes are run as flat classes with 30 horses flatting together that take about 10 minutes. A hunter show needs to allow 2-3 minutes per horse to do its trip. So to collect the same amount of entry money for 30 horses takes up to three times as long. Any show that runs a full day of well attended flat classes will ultimately make way more in entry fees in the same time period of a full day of jumping classes. This makes a big difference!

[TheOrangeOne]

I have a different story about night watch for anyone who heard about the horse that got stolen at Upperville... The tents were dark and very hot. My wonderful braider took my horse to the next asile of stalls over where there was a high powered fan and some better lighting. I had gotten nigt watch since he had been acting funny. Sometime around 2 AM, I recieved a paniced phone message that my horse was gone, do I know anything about this, call back!!! Naturally I slept through the ensuing calls. I get there in the morning, see my horse braided, hanging out in the stall. Check my phone messages. The poor woman had gone and shut every gate on the show grounds, was running around trying to find my horse, and didn't check the next asile over. Oh I felt terrible. What was the best though was relaying the story to a friend later as something to giggle about. "OMG so YOUR horse is the one that got stolen out of its stall?!". Ah, the rumor mill....:lol:

[dags]

Nice OrangeOne :)

One has to assume, if one has ANY faith in humanity, that some of those 'night watchers' actually do care about their job and the horses. The idea is a totally sound one, as the idea of leaving my horse alone in some of the fairgrounds we end up at is frightening. However, people have done and dealt with this for decades, and if it's a big enough deal to them SOMEONE stays at the barn. If it's a big enough deal AND they have the money to pay for the luxury of someone else to do it, night watch is a grand idea.

But it should. be. optional. As it is a service or concern we have handled on our own for years. In that respect it is a luxury. Just like braiding. Having braids isn't optional, but paying for it is.

I also think if Night Watch was given a chart of stalls that showed blocks of horses across the grounds wanting the service they would probably pay more attention to each individual horse. Even if only to try and find them. But as is they are told to go check the stall of every horse on the grounds- this is mindless work, it should be no surprise that they do it without conscious effort.

[Nikki^]

The most obvious answer is they don't have to give out 18,000-25,000K prize money. Local shows do not give USEF points. I love local horse shows and support them. We are comparing apples to oranges. I think that the shows you are happy with and love should continue to be supported because they appear to be great shows for what your needs and many others needs are, and obviously the needs or desires of many competitors. The more local shows are perfect as they are, and maybe the show world will especially in this economy head in that direction. That is probably a great thing.:)

So since they are USEF rated and give out 18-25K in prize money (and not all USEF rated shows give out that much) then it's ok to increase the price of stalls from $65 a week to $200? It's ok to increase the grounds fee from $5 to $30? And for the non rates classes, to increase the classes from $8 to $35?

I would love to at most show an "A" show twice a year but with it being so expensive, it's impossible. This is the problem that I have with the "A" shows.

Again, an USEF "A" rated show was being held at the same Eq Center as the local shows. The stall fees went from $35 to $175, grounds fee from $5 to $30 and there were tons of other fees that were tacked on.
It was like a mini "A" show. Not as big as Gulf Port, didn't have huge jumper classes (I think the most was a $2500 jumper class). They had the rated and unrated H/J classes.

I love my local shows because they are fun and affordable. I just wish when someone runs an USEF rated show wouldn't increase the fees just because they are rated.

[Giddy-up]

I have a different story about night watch for anyone who heard about the horse that got stolen at Upperville... The tents were dark and very hot. My wonderful braider took my horse to the next asile of stalls over where there was a high powered fan and some better lighting. I had gotten nigt watch since he had been acting funny. Sometime around 2 AM, I recieved a paniced phone message that my horse was gone, do I know anything about this, call back!!! Naturally I slept through the ensuing calls. I get there in the morning, see my horse braided, hanging out in the stall. Check my phone messages. The poor woman had gone and shut every gate on the show grounds, was running around trying to find my horse, and didn't check the next asile over. Oh I felt terrible. What was the best though was relaying the story to a friend later as something to giggle about. "OMG so YOUR horse is the one that got stolen out of its stall?!". Ah, the rumor mill....:lol:

If I am reading this correctly--night service is an option for you?? The shows I attend it's an automatic fee not up for discussion & doesn't matter if your horse is there every night or just 1 night. Glad your night service is on their toes, but most I have seen are not. :no: Empty stalls getting the cards marked is common.

chunky munky--I know the shows in which smiles speaks of & yes, the sponsors pay for the ENTIRE amount. If you sponsor a $5K classic, you write a check for $5K & so forth. The sponsors also then get preferential treatment when it comes to deciding where you will be stabled & which stalls you get--yet another way everything is sponsored as people are clammering for the "better" stalls.

What is this "deposit fee" people keep mentioning? What is that for? :confused:

[Giddy-up]

Just received a price list for 2 A shows in January at Wills Park in Alpharetta,Ga.
Get this stall fees $135, service fee $35,USEF $15 (as always) but that's it for fees, no night check fee or any others.
The stall fee for hunter breeding and non rated beginner divisions is $70.

That is much less expensive than the other shows we've been posting about.

Pregreen,adults,ss,open,prechild/preadult,modified only $125

ponys $130

jrs $150

I'm definitely taking my yearling to do the hunter breeding! My pregreen horse is already in FL and will be doing Jacksonville those weeks.

How nice they are offering good prices & that's great you will support the show. :yes:

Show managers are going to have maybe start making decisions as people have less $$$ to spend--do they run a show at full price with less entries OR do they cut some of the costs but attract more entries?? It's a toss up.

[RockinHorse]

Show managers are going to have maybe start making decisions as people have less $$$ to spend--do they run a show at full price with less entries OR do they cut some of the costs but attract more entries?? It's a toss up.

I imagine many will choose to run the shows at high $$$ with fewer entries since fewer entries will equal less work :rolleyes:

[Giddy-up]

I imagine many will choose to run the shows at high $$$ with fewer entries since fewer entries will equal less work :rolleyes:

True. But how many horses do you need to show in order for it to count & managers not to lose their dates?

[Midge]

The horse watch services that are good are the one who offer their services at a show. They have to be good, otherwise they won't get hired. Glenn Geary has a great service and hires people who know the front end of the horse from the back.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why the horse shows started doing the mandatory horse watch. 500 horses at 15 bucks a piece is $7500.00. Hire a couple of college girls for $100 bucks a night and you have over $5000 in gravy.

The only reason they are trying to ban braiding is because they haven't figured out how to make it a show fee.

[DMK]

Here's an interesting show bill from an up and coming AQHA show in Scottsdale, AZ

It's a 2 week show and I'm guessing it is not a small show given the date, location and duration. Permanent stalls for the duration of the show (2 weeks) is $275, $175 for temporary stabling.

sun circuit show (http://www.markharrellhorseshows.com/showbills/2009%20showbills/Sun%20Circuit%20Email%20Premium.pdf)

I don't have any problem with anyone trying to make money, it's what I spend most of my waking hours doing as well. But I am not sure I could accept the case that AQHA shows can run more horses through less rings as the best argument for cost differentials. In looking over this schedule, they have entire rings dedicated for classes that run on a similar time frame as h/j classes (1 entry at a time): trail, reining, cutting, western riding & cattle classes. Not only that, the regular "flat" portion of WP/HS classes appears to have to share every other day with the o/f classes, so half of those rings are dedicated to rounds that work just like h/j classes as well.

And I admit, I used to argue that h/j shows deserved greater stall fees because they probably employed more people in more rings and had to hire fence crews, etc. that ate into costs more than an AQHA show. In looking at this schedule it is hard to make that case. They have 4 days of o/f course building, trail course building, AND they have to pay for and provide space for cattle. I'm just going to go out on a limb here, but I'm betting that renting good stock for top notch cutting horses and roping horses might trump a lot of expenses your average h/j show experiences...

But either way, I stress I am not saying show managers need to starve so the rest of us can enjoy a hobby, it's not like I'm signing up for a reduction in income anytime soon either. But the point is if you want to keep the livelihood as an actual viable livelihood, it may be useful to see what's going on outside our little box. Because it's an evolve or die kind of economy these days and based on the costs outlined in this show bill, I'm guessing AQHA shows have been seeing either larger growth (or slower decline) then maybe h/j shows. Certainly in looking at the numbers, it's hard to make a case for an AQHA person making the move to h/j shows...

[Horseymama]

I think the real problem is not that show managers DO charge the insane fees that they do, but that they CAN. Because of a little thing called the "millage rule." Tell me again why we have this? What exactly does it do for our sport?

TS of HITS told an old coach of mine once that his business plan was based on the "5 year shelf life" he believed that most hunter/jumper riders have. Therefore, he explained, he could charge outrageous amounts for his crappy, half-a$$ed shows because in 5 years that rider/owner would quit and/or run out of money and another would come along.

[Spotted Pony]

I think the real problem is not that show managers DO charge the insane fees that they do, but that they CAN. Because of a little thing called the "millage rule." Tell me again why we have this? What exactly does it do for our sport?


You hit the nail right on the head! Until there is competition for our horse show $$ show managers do not have to make any concessions to keep our business. You either play in thier sandbox or not at all.

I have already made the choice to drive to Gulfport instead of showing at HITS Ocala, which is literally a 5 min hack from my barn, for several reasons - and not one of them being that my horses are not competitive in Ocala. I would be ecstatic if there were any rated shows closer than that 7 hour drive and would definatly give a new show at least a shot at my business. I am not a professional, but for the last 4 years have had anywhere from 1 - 4 horses showing an average of 40 weeks per year. I go to the shows that I feel we will enjoy.

If you want to work on something that would ultimately benefit the customer then support any efforts to get rid of the mileage rule!

[MissintheSouth]

The only reason they are trying to ban braiding is because they haven't figured out how to make it a show fee.

Yet.

[Wanderluster]

http://www.ushja.org/images/top-logo.jpg (http://www.ushja.org/)http://www.ushja.org/images/blank.gifhttp://www.ushja.org/images/top-pic.jpghttp://www.ushja.org/images/blank.gifhttp://www.ushja.org/images/nav-backg.jpgHome (http://www.ushja.org/) | About (http://www.ushja.org/about.shtml) | Contact (http://www.ushja.org/contact.shtml) | News (http://www.ushja.org/pr/) | Merchandise (http://allpro2.stores.yahoo.net/ushja.html) | Classifieds (http://ushja.equine.com/)

Show Managers Committee
Show Managers Mission Statement:
To guide and oversee the development of hunter and jumper competition managers by proposing rule changes and developing educational programs so that it enables competition managers to produce the best product possible for exhibitors.
ONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Show Managers Committee[/FONT]Chair Bob Bell
Marsh Pointe 1017 Embassy Row
Seabrook Island, SC 29455
(843) 768-5503
clearseas@earthlink.net (clearseas@earthlink.net) James Rice
38 Trescott Street
Dix Hills, NY 11746-7143
(516) 322-0533
IdlTrainer@aol.com (IdlTrainer@aol.com) Mack Anderton
1155 Hillsboro Road
Franklin, TN 37069
(615) 351-7756
dpmackoff@BellSouth.net (dpmackoff@BellSouth.net)
Katharine Benson
23 Brier Road
Whitehouse Station, NJ 08889-3045
(908) 534-8833
jackkate@aol.com (jackkate@aol.com)
David Burton Jr.
17032 Shetland Lane
Loxahatchee, FL 33470
(561) 792-9221
holstiner@aol.com (holstiner@aol.com)
Lynn Garland
381 Flatbush Road
Littlestown, PA 17340
(717) 359-5357
slstables@earthlink.net (slstables@earthlink.net)
Patricia Haines
1102 Birchwood Road
Temperance, MI 48182
(419) 241-3101
belthaines@aol.com (belthaines@aol.com)
Diane Johnson
9717 NE Juanita Dr. Apt 401
Kirkland, WA 98034-4231
(425) 823-2802
DIANJNSN@aol.com (DIANJNSN@aol.com)
Larry Langer
480 W. Riverside Drive, Ste 1
Burbank, CA 91506-3209
(818) 563-3250
larlanger@aol.com (larlanger@aol.com)
Glenn Petty
262 South Town circle
Rolesville, NC 27571
(919) 556-7321
trifarms@aol.com (trifarms@aol.com)
Allen Rheinheimer
8617 East State Road 334
Zionsville, IN 46077
(317) 733-1030
showjumps@sbcglobal.net (showjumps@sbcglobal.net)
Patrick Rodes
785 W Jeter Road
Argyle, TX 76226-9551
(940) 240-1207
pdrntx@aol.com (pdrntx@aol.com)
Thomas Struzzieri
319 Main Street
Saugerties, NY 12477-1330
tom@hitsshows.com (tom@hitsshows.com)
Stephanie Wheeler
2683 Via De La Valle Suite G-627
Del Mar, CA 92014
(949) 443-1841
showpark@aol.com (showpark@aol.com)
*For more information please contact the Show Manager Committee's Liaison Christine Kennedy 859-825-6009 or ckennedy@ushja.org (ckennedy@ushja.org)*


Here is the list of show managers that are responsible for giving us the best product possible for exhibitors. Let them know what you think.


4047 Iron Works Parkway
Lexington, Kentucky 40511
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Main Line: (859)225-2055
Hours: M-F 8:30-5:00

[InWhyCee Redux]

... here are the stall fees for the last All American Quarter Horse Congress, which is a three-week show.
______________

Stall Fees

* All horses in non-assigned stalls (tent stalls)
$150
* Reining horses in pre-assigned stalls
$250
* Other horses (not in Reining or Cutting) in pre-assigned stalls
$350

Horse not obtaining stalls in the assigned stall barns of their choice can choose to have stalls in remaining areas for a $250 fee and receive a $100 refund per stall.

[Lunara]

I don't understand the difference in stall cost for the cutting, reining and more for those not in those classes? Anyone have an idea on this?

[Lunara]

The horse watch services that are good are the one who offer their services at a show. They have to be good, otherwise they won't get hired. Glenn Geary has a great service and hires people who know the front end of the horse from the back.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why the horse shows started doing the mandatory horse watch. 500 horses at 15 bucks a piece is $7500.00. Hire a couple of college girls for $100 bucks a night and you have over $5000 in gravy.

The only reason they are trying to ban braiding is because they haven't figured out how to make it a show fee.

Actually there was talk a few years back that some managers were going to charge the braiders a vending fee like the shops. Not sure what became of that, but obviously it never happened.

[quintessance]

So since they are USEF rated and give out 18-25K in prize money (and not all USEF rated shows give out that much) then it's ok to increase the price of stalls from $65 a week to $200? It's ok to increase the grounds fee from $5 to $30? And for the non rates classes, to increase the classes from $8 to $35?

I would love to at most show an "A" show twice a year but with it being so expensive, it's impossible. This is the problem that I have with the "A" shows.

Again, an USEF "A" rated show was being held at the same Eq Center as the local shows. The stall fees went from $35 to $175, grounds fee from $5 to $30 and there were tons of other fees that were tacked on.
It was like a mini "A" show. Not as big as Gulf Port, didn't have huge jumper classes (I think the most was a $2500 jumper class). They had the rated and unrated H/J classes.

I love my local shows because they are fun and affordable. I just wish when someone runs an USEF rated show wouldn't increase the fees just because they are rated.

SO, you are saying you paid $35.00 a week for stalls?! We get you like the local show circuit, but you are comparing apples and oranges like mentioned earlier. I haven't seen an unrated local show running 7-12 rings with a staff of over 200. I don't think many people are expecting to go to a AA rated show for beans, but bashing the rated shows is not fair either.

[ExJumper]

Actually there was talk a few years back that some managers were going to charge the braiders a vending fee like the shops. Not sure what became of that, but obviously it never happened.

Because you learn fast not to 'eff with the braiders! They are the ones who run the show. :lol::lol::lol:

When I'm not sure when my class will run I ask the braiders, not the office. They are way more accurate!

[horsegurl]

I have a couple of comments from these messages.
First of all, someone smartly posted several email addys for the peeps on the show managers committee. Instead of just posting here, why not go back, paste and copy a dozen comments to a word file (with regards to the show managers lowering their fees, and not taking it out on the little guy) and cc everyone on that post? YAY! Now we're not just griping, we're being proactive. Bitching here isn't going to get anything done. Let's go to the source.

Second. If there is a vendor fee for braiders, then it just gets charged to the clients by the braiders. Not because the braiders are bad people, it's just business. When gas prices go up, you pay more for produce for instance. The expense is passed on to the consumer

Third. Night watch deserves it own thread. So I started one!

[Go Fish]

[QUOTE=brynleigh;3720980]I braid some to help pay for my horses to be at the shows, unfortunately I end up braiding for people that do the pre-childrens/adult hunters at a lot of shows, since I am low on the braiding totem pole. By management mandating that there is no need to braid for these classes I end up not being able to subsidize my income enough to afford to show. Which all of the money seems to go back to the horse show.

Wow...some people on this thread have trouble reading for comprehension...show management is NOT MANDATING that there be no braiding, they are saying that you DON'T HAVE TO. I honestly don't think that NOT braiding for the unapproved divisions will have that big of an effect. People showing in the unapproved divisions as a warm up for approved divisions later in the day will braid. People showing unbraided in the unapproved classes only usually don't, anyway. These divisions are often used by trainers to get the inexperienced babies exposed to shows.

[ynl063w]

Because you learn fast not to 'eff with the braiders! They are the ones who run the show. :lol::lol::lol:

This has been stated several times on this thread. I haven't shown since the 80s, so can someone explain exactly how braiders control entire show circuits?

I also don't understand why everyone thinks that show management should be looking out for the well-being of the braiders. It would certainly be a shame for those who make money braiding if their businesses suffer because of this announcement, but that's life. I'm not sure it was necessary (or wise) for management to be so melodramatic in expressing their concern for their customers' pocketbooks if that was the only solution they could come up with, but it is not their responsibility to make sure that the braiders get as much business as they possibly can.

If you are concerned about the well-being of your braiders, then pay them to braid your horses. If you want to save a little money and are showing in unrated divisions, leave your horses unbraided or braid them yourselves.

[Go Fish]

_________


PS: BTW, I did have a groom back in the day — her name was Mom! ;)

Sheeesh...I WISH my Mom would help out...but she might break a nail or get her outfit dirty, or heaven help us, actually work up a SWEAT :lol:

[Go Fish]

[QUOTE=Smiles;3719964]Night watch and grounds fee have got to be the bigest b.s. that the exhitors have to pay. Sorry but the horse show should absorb some of the costs to put on the friggen shows. Like the other posters have mentioned the people who do the watch are just marking the paper and are not even doing their job.

But gosh, if the shows dispense with night check, then the "little people" (i.e., the person doing the actual check, probably for minimum wage) would be out of a job and hurt financially, just like the braiders.

[Go Fish]

Just curious...how many braiders actually declare their income and pay taxes? Since braiders are self-employed, are they required to pay taxes quarterly? I know for a fact that my braider is paid under the table. I wonder how many braiders would honestly admit that they don't pay income taxes at all?

[Trixie]

Just curious...how many braiders actually declare their income and pay taxes? Since braiders are self-employed, are they required to pay taxes quarterly? I know for a fact that my braider is paid under the table. I wonder how many braiders would honestly admit that they don't pay income taxes at all?

I don't really see how that's relevant to the discussion we're having... I'm sure any braider who is a responsible taxpayer is recording any earned income just like everyone else, of course, there are those in all industries who don't. The horse show world pays a lot of folks "under the table."

As for this:

I have never in all those years felt taken advantage of by fees as I am well aware of the cost before I go to a show.

I may know in advance, but I've absolutely felt taken advantage of by fees. We barely show rated anymore due to the fact that you're paying an insane amount of money before you even step foot in the ring, and there's almost no way for the little guy to cut costs: i.e., even if we're hauling to a show for the day locally, the "haul in fee" can be as much as buying a stall. Shavings monopolies. Grounds fees. Service fees. Office fees. Etc. The cost of showing rated increases exponentially every year. What exactly are these things going towards? Why weren't these fees there in the past?

Braiding is a negligible offense, comparatively. I pay someone because I suck at it and I don't want to do it, but it's something that I can very easily do on my own to save money if I desire. It's the costs for things that I can't do by myself that add up.

[twistntail]

Just curious...how many braiders actually declare their income and pay taxes? Since braiders are self-employed, are they required to pay taxes quarterly? I know for a fact that my braider is paid under the table. I wonder how many braiders would honestly admit that they don't pay income taxes at all?

I have to say that I find this offensive. I am a professional braider and have been for the past ten years. I started a corporation and I do pay taxes. I also have a house payment, a car payment, and various other bills...I do not do my job for extra money and nothing is "under the table"?? I am a legitimate business providing a legitimate service and charging a legitimate price..I can only imagine what would happen if I tried to tell the IRS that I don't make any money...meanwhile, I have thousands going out every month! Please don't assume that braiders are doing something "illegal" and therefore are any less deserving of making a living. Times are tough right now for EVERYONE! Horse shows have concentrated most of the divisions that people braid for on the weekend. Often times braiders do an average nights worth of work in the first THREE days of the show and then have to work 18 hours a day on the weekend to keep up with the demands...how many of you would be willing to do that? Just my two cents worth on the subject!

[GreenMachine]

I don't really see how that's relevant to the discussion we're having... I'm sure any braider who is a responsible taxpayer is recording any earned income just like everyone else, of course, there are those in all industries who don't. The horse show world pays a lot of folks "under the table."

I agree, I don't see how that's relevant, and I think that many of us who are taken aback by the press release aren't because it may hurt braiders, specifically (though I am miffed on behalf of my barn's fabulous braider). My problem with the release, which I suspect is the same problem many of the others on this thread have with it, is that it's an attempt to appear magnanimous and understanding of the troubles faced by exhibitors in the "current economic climate" by:

1) Not mandating something that wasn't mandatory to begin with, and which is only a drop in the bucket, cost-wise. I've shown at Ocala. It wasn't cheap. But it's not the braiding fees that are preventing me from going this year.

2) Cutting the income of a third party. Gee, it's awfully nice of HITS and WEF to save us money without taking any hit to their own top line. How very thoughtful and understanding.

If show management wants to remind us that braiding isn't mandatory for non-rated divisions, great. But, please, spare me the quotes from the BNTs applauding this announcement. I'll applaud when show management says, "Hey, we're going to take a hit for you," rather than this b.s. of "Hey, just don't pay your braider!"

[christmasfarm]

Just curious...how many braiders actually declare their income and pay taxes? Since braiders are self-employed, are they required to pay taxes quarterly? I know for a fact that my braider is paid under the table. I wonder how many braiders would honestly admit that they don't pay income taxes at all?

m
My little braiding company is an LLC, which is filed with the IRS twelve ways to Sunday. Not only does my LLC have to file its own taxes, then my partner and I have to file a whole return and pay taxes based on the LLC's return. I've witnessed fights with the IRS; I don't EVER want to be in one.

Yes, Virginia, at least some of us pay our taxes.

[christmasfarm]

m
My little braiding company is an LLC, which is filed with the IRS twelve ways to Sunday. Not only does my LLC have to file its own taxes, then my partner and I have to file a whole return and pay taxes based on the LLC's return. I've witnessed fights with the IRS; I don't EVER want to be in one.

Yes, Virginia, at least some of us pay our taxes.

And what? The braiders are more likely to cheat on their taxes than the show managers? What's the point here?

[Midge]

Just curious...how many braiders actually declare their income and pay taxes? Since braiders are self-employed, are they required to pay taxes quarterly? I know for a fact that my braider is paid under the table. I wonder how many braiders would honestly admit that they don't pay income taxes at all?

Nice inference, princess. I have been a braider for 22 years. It is hard to buy a house, a car, get a credit card without showing an income. ALL self employed people are required to make quarterly tax payments, although there are some exceptions if you make a large portion of your income in a small window of time. I get a stack of 1099s every year, which even if I wanted to skip the whole tax paying thing, makes it kinda hard to pretend I do not have a taxable income.

I don't understand why any business would pay a business expense under the table.

[ynl063w]

2) Cutting the income of a third party. Gee, it's awfully nice of HITS and WEF to save us money without taking any hit to their own top line. How very thoughtful and understanding.

Why should show management take on any responsibility with regards to how much money braiders earn at the shows they put on? Cutting costs to customers without hurting your own profits is something all businesses aim for. Where they failed is in the way they presented the information to the public. That email is stupid and insulting, but the idea is not.

And in what way are these braiders "running the show" to the point that management (or anyone else) should be afraid of them? I truly don't understand the "mafia" references. Can someone explain?

[GreenMachine]

Where they failed is in the way they presented the information to the public. That email is stupid and insulting, but the idea is not.


That's precisely it; the announcement is stupid and insulting. I agree that any business is going to look for a way to make it easier for a customer to purchase its goods/services without taking a hit to its own bottom line. It's the general cluelessness displayed that just floors me

Somebody get these guys some communications professionals.

[Midge]

Why should show management take on any responsibility with regards to how much money braiders earn at the shows they put on? Cutting costs to customers without hurting your own profits is something all businesses aim for. Where they failed is in the way they presented the information to the public. That email is stupid and insulting, but the idea is not.


Show management has no responsibility for my income. My income is between me and my customers, which is why show management should cut costs under their own control and not involve themselves in a business relationship between two other entities. Why didn't they say, 'Don't eat at our concession stand. Bring your own food.'

[ynl063w]

Why didn't they say, 'Don't eat at our concession stand. Bring your own food.'

Doesn't show management make some money from the concession stands?

[Jumphigh83]

I believe that WAS her point.

[ynl063w]

What point? You can't compare braiders to vendors - the latter is paying show management for the privilege of being allowed to run their business on show property; the former is not. Show management has an interest in how much money vendors make on the show grounds. It would be bad business to discourage exhibitors from taking advantage of the goods and services that vendors provide. This relationship does not exist between management and braiders.

Why would any business choose to cut costs to its customers in a way that would negatively affect its profits over one that would not?

[brynleigh]

Ok if you can't compare braiders with the vendors, then compare braiders with trainers and tell the trainers they can't charge their customers a day fee and a schooling fee everyday, its one or the other. Cut their income in half and you will see how fast their heads can spin. Realizing most trainers show but not all of them pay anything back to the show, so it essentially is the same scenario the braiders have. Regardless you have a business entity trying to control the income of a totally seperate business.

[Midge]

Or eat at MacDonald's instead of Chez Cuisine.

[ynl063w]

Show management isn't telling exhibitors not to pay braiders for their services. They aren't telling braiders that they can't charge for their services.

I guess I just don't understand why this is causing such an uproar. As I said earlier, if you want to support your braiders, go ahead and take advantage of their services. If you don't want to shell out that money, leave your unrated division horses unbraided or do the job yourself.

Edited to add: Trainers bring in money by bringing horses. That's pretty important to management because, ya know, it's a HORSE show.

[horsegurl]

[QUOTE=ynl063w;3724717]
I guess I just don't understand why this is causing such an uproar. As I said earlier, if you want to support your braiders, go ahead and take advantage of their services. If you don't want to shell out that money, leave your unrated division horses unbraided or do the job yourself.QUOTE]


The point is that show management is grandstanding how wonderful they are by "reducing exhibitors costs" by this unmandatory braiding thing. Well, while they are being so wonderful, they're hurting people in business for themselves, while they (management) are not taking a hit themselves! Has WEF or HITS lowered all their prices, esp.for stalls, this year? No. Classes are still expensive, etc. There's so much more that management could really do, but instead they are taking a swipe at the braiders. Here's a letter from Tom Struzz. I recieved today (I wrote him personally to tell him what a crap Press Release that was):
Kylee R:

I received your email with your comments regarding lowering some of our horse show fees. I think that you would be pleased to know that we reducing some of our fees beginning this winter. Ship in fees, add and scratch fees, schooling round fees all have either been removed or greatly reduced from prior years. In addition we are offering deeply discounted feed and food prices this year. While we did not lower our stabling rates, we did purchase all new stalls and tents that have very well received and offer a greater value than in years past. Please feel free to keep in touch with other suggestions.

Regards

Tom Struzzieri

[MissIndependence]

Please....how about eliminating NOMINATING fees for the jumpers since the classes' prize money is covered anyway??? I'm sorry....but I think it's nice to braid - and I think why show if you're going to eliminate the pomp and beauty of a well turned out horse? Sorry show guys.....find another place to help us. How about stall fees? Scratch fees??? blah blah blah

[meanz1966]

I am happy to add my braiding list was not down in any way this weekend, I had horses on it from across the board, schoolings(only doing that class), pleasure, non thor, B greens, childrens....... I think my customers did a "NO DEAL" and are waiting for a better deal from the Banker.....

Thank you for supporting your Braiders...


Marena

[Go Fish]

Nice inference, princess. I have been a braider for 22 years. It is hard to buy a house, a car, get a credit card without showing an income. ALL self employed people are required to make quarterly tax payments, although there are some exceptions if you make a large portion of your income in a small window of time. I get a stack of 1099s every year, which even if I wanted to skip the whole tax paying thing, makes it kinda hard to pretend I do not have a taxable income.

I don't understand why any business would pay a business expense under the table.

Speaking of insulting...I guess the braiding mafia (as someone mentioned ealier) is alive and well. Please PM me your name so that I can ensure I don't hire you to braid my horses, ever.

I have always paid to have my horses braided and it's unthinkable for me to show unbraided. But the sense of entitlement by the braiders on this board is starting to get to me and I just might have to learn to braid my own horses..."Princess..." = sheesh, sorry for asking a purely innocent question.

[Midge]

Just curious...how many braiders actually declare their income and pay taxes? Since braiders are self-employed, are they required to pay taxes quarterly? I know for a fact that my braider is paid under the table. I wonder how many braiders would honestly admit that they don't pay income taxes at all?

What, this quote (emphasis mine) is supposed to make me feel all warm and fuzzy about you? There was nothing 'purely innocent' about your question. There is no 'braiding mafia' or sense of entitlement involved. You pretty much called me a potential felon. You are on the wrong coast for me to ever worry about possibly braiding for someone who thinks I most likely engage in criminal activity.

As for PM-ing you my real name, every one of my regular customers who frequent this board knows who I am as well as several show managers and a whole bunch of friends. I assume there are a couple of California braiders who know this is me as well. If it's that important to you, find out somewhere else.

[Jest]

You best learn how now! Do not piss off the braiding mafia. Learn it, know it, live it.

[Midge]

And the same people who can tell you my name can also tell you I think the whole braiding mafia thing is a joke.

[Tackpud]

I have just sat back and watched this thread develop. But when you start taking shots at the braiders, I can't help but take offense. The braiders are offering a service that, obviously, many do not want to do themselves. They work extremely hard and get very little thanks for their work. The braiders that I know, Midge is one of them, are very honest, hard working, loyal people. They are not any form of "mafia" - that whole idea is ridiculous. They are hired by barns to do their job and are kind enough to take on individual customers when they have time. The thought of standing on a stool for hours at a time makes me ache - and I have done it many nights. How they do it for years is just mind boggling to me.

From this trainer, who now does her own client's braiding since we don't go to enough shows to support a full time braider, thank you braiders for all your work over the years. May everyone braid their unrecognized horses this winter and fill your pockets with well deserved money.

[eby]

The idea of lowering winter costs by taking money from the braiders is insulting to the braiders. If management is truly worried about helping their exhibitors they could also be creative in making financial sacrifices. I would like to see one group of show managers give people who come to their entire series a break on stall & paddock fees. Management could implement a program where for every week of the circuit you rent a stall and paddock they would give a percentage off . The more weeks the customer has the stall the higher that percentage rate would be. This would continue to make money for management but the customer would also be getting a break for their support to the show circuit. Regardless of the amount, it would be something the management could offer to their customers. If show managers want customers to keep spending money the smart business man is going to offer cuts somewhere. Again with schooling classes, people are going to cut back in this area. Maybe management could offer a reduced pakage for x amount of schooling classes. It won't cost the show that much but it would go along way to making exhibitors feel as though management is trying to help cut their expenses. If I were offered any kind of a break, I would think much more of the management taking my money.

[Jumphigh83]

I am waiting for the press release that says "we will be paying a LOT more attention to the quality of our footing so you wont have to PAY your VET to inject your horses feet/ankles/hocks so often, or have to claim the arthroscopic surgery on those ankle chips from the concrete we asked you to jump on..." Just a thought..


also it really isn't about the braiders, they were just the first in line...it is about cost cutting...they simply see the braiders as the first in line of fire. When they ask you to not pay your vet/blacksmith/hay man/grain man/tack shop/vendors food AND tack so you can afford to show then EVERYONE would be shocked and outraged (rightfully so)...somehow show management feels free to lump the braiders into THEIR circle (wrong)! I braided for a long time (to pay for my horse shows) so I feel for you guys. If it was such a cushy job, most folks would do it themselves! It is hard, for the most part thankless and because no one actually SEES you toiling, somehow it isn't really WORK.

[867-5309]

I have question- I don't know much about the various divisions and am following this from the angle of saving $ in a general sense only-

Doesn't this "no braiding thing" apply to hunters only, and UN rated only? How many horses are unrated hunters at each of those venues on any given week? 100? 30? Of those, if 25% still opt to braid- how many horses per braider per week do you think they will lose? What are the numbers I guess is what I am asking.

[DMK]

oh yea, we covered that back 9 pages ago. I don't know too many people who show up at unrated divisions with a braided horse if that is all their horse is doing that day. Now maybe that will be different for the 2'6 adults/childrens on the weekends, but does anyone here honestly see someone paying all that money to show their horse in an unrated weekend division and NOT have it braided? Entirely aside from the whole idea of a "pre-adult" class at WEF (not touching that concept with a 10 foot pole), is anyone really going to pay the many 1000's of dollars it takes for most people to get their horse to WEF and come away with an unbraided horse in a picture? Yea, right...

I don't get the hostility towards braiders. Sorry, but they are part of the backside of the horse show and just as essential to th eprogram as trainers, riders and grooms. And just like being a groom, rider, trainer, you too can opto to be a braider, I doubt they will mind for a minute. All my braider did when I told her I wanted to braid my own was to take time out of her busy day to give me some very useful pointers. And if you work too many hours to braid or groom or aren't experienced enough to bring along your own horse and get it to the ring by yourself, well I guess you are going to have to pay to play. I might be able to braid my horse, but I have to pay a small fortune to a plumber to do a task a trained chimp could handle. We all pay to play at some point in out lives, and if you have ever stood ohn a ladder in 40 degree weather all night long and half the day for 3-5 days in a row, you probably would come to the conclusion it's better to pay than play.

And unlike food and tack vendors, they are not renting a physical location on the grounds. So yes, I can see charging if one of them wants to set up a shop on tack store row, but not until then. The idea of charging for braider fees is just as ridiculous of an idea as when HITS opted to take a percent of tack store sales as part of rent. Did they ever go through with that? Because that was just wrong on so many levels and you know who ultimately paid for it. The exhibitors.

[lauriep]

I also support the braiders 1000% and laugh at the notion of a "braider mafia," at least here on the east coast. And since one of my dearest friends in the world runs a very successful braiding business in CA, and is extremely well-thought-of, I think I can safely say that the REPUTABLE braiders in CA are not a mafia, either.

I braid our BABIES for every show other than Devon, Upperville, WArrenton and IHF - KY, and I can't tell you how thankful I am to have our wonderful braider add us to her already hectic schedule at these shows. She has ALWAYS bent over backwards to help me with my braiding and show me new tricks. And she is the best pro braider that I know with the young ones. If anyone ever tried to get into her income via mandatory rules against braiding, I would be the most vocal critic and vote with my checkbook where I could.

The show fees HAVE gotten out of hand. Show management really needs to do a reality check and assess where THEY can make the cuts, and still make a profit, as no one expects them to do this for nothing, yet give the exhibitor some sense of relief. No doubt, it is a luxury sport, but it doesn't HAVE to be a sport only for the wealthy.

[webmistress32]

sorry I just became aware of this thread. it's a good one.

chiming in here as an old timer from the 60's and 70's. when I was a kid in Pony Club we showed every weekend. and we were *required* by our barn / Pony Club to turn out to the nines every single show. and yes that meant braiding. there was no one to pay to groom, or clean tack or braid. we got up early or we did it the night before we left for the show or we didn't show. end of story.

I know things have changed and these big shows are ... well ... big. but that doesn't change the fact that our kids should still be learning some values and get a bit of character building by taking care of their own turnout at least to some degree.

IMO the parents should be doing everything they can do encourage the little ones to take a crack at their own braiding and grooming and the show should support it with the right rules in place.

horse ownership and riding is not just about the riding.

with all that said, this rule change is not coming from the good hearts of show management but serves only to punish the small enterprising businesses on show grounds (the braiders.) bad call on their part.

[TheOrangeOne]

Just a note that the "braiding mafia" comment is a joke. Must just be the circle of people who I hang out with, we always giggle about it, since they work together taking each others' horses when one is busy and only come out in the night time. I don't think they are anyone to be afraid of, but they are such essential members of the team that gets your horse to the ring, you wouldn't want to upset them just like you wouldn't want to upset your trainer or blacksmith or vet. Now, do they keep a blacklist that is circulated all over the east coast? I doubt it. I wouldn't be suprised though if someone didn't pay their bill one weekend to not be able to find a braider at the next show who would braid for them in the same group that works together. They're kind of in teams, I guess? It's not intended to be any type of hostile thing, just a joke.

[juniormom]

I agree with everyone here. What about the braiders? I don't think cutting out the braiding will help anyone very much. All that will do is hurt the braiders! I would not go along with that. Plus, as someone already mentioned, some of those divisions don't braid anyway. How about giving out enough prize money so that the ch and res don't even have bill?

How about lower stall fees? How about a free tack stall with every so many entries? Don't you hate it when there was a quarter horse show or another type of show at the same facility the week before the h/j show and you see that the stall was $75 for the week, but amazingly - the week you are there with the h/j, the stalls are now $225?

[pds]

Just got this email from Bob Bell/Classic Company.

'No Braiding' Responses & Other Cost-Cutting Considerations

I want to thank so many of you for your positive emails about the braiding issue. Many had other great ideas for discussion to cut costs and many we will be implementing at the winter shows in 2009. Of course there were the emails from braiders who hated the idea.

One braider's email told me she never braids unrated divisions, but by the end of the email told me I was cutting her income by 40%. Maybe she was just a bit confused from not getting enough sleep and doesn't realize her own contradiction. Another braider tried to calculate the amount of money a show makes but using figures she apparently guessed at and thinks the only expenses a horse show has are facility fees.

I've responded to all the braiders' emails explaining we are not trying to hurt ANYONE, simply finding suggestions to aid all exhibitors during these unusual economic times. We're exploring many options to help people cut costs in and out of the show offices.

Anyway, back to the real issues. We are about to start 12 weeks of shows in three venues: Jacksonville (Jan 7-Feb 1), Gulfport (Feb 4-Mar 15), Atlanta (Mar 18-29), and we have many things to tell you about.

Three new ideas from exhibitors that were discussed by our staff to help with economics were really quite simple and will start in Jacksonville this winter:

Jacksonville and Gulfport will offer a reduced price for shavings if they are picked up at the shavings trailers during defined hours. There will be a morning and an afternoon period where exhibitors can save money on their feed and bedding. Details will be posted in the feed office at each show and more details will follow.
Buy-Me-Hunter classes will be offered at all of our shows this winter. They will be held at the end of the day for trainers to show horses that are for sale to anyone who wants to watch and drink some wine ringside. All horses entered must be legitimately for sale and each trainer will be required to enter the show and fill out a bio form for the announcer to read. There will be no fee for these classes. If this works, we will look at adding ponies and jumpers.
Cash: The costs for Visa, MasterCard, and American Express coupled with the costs of the many, many returned checks we have been given, not to mention the time spent after shows collecting money has brought the staff together to offer a 5% discount for paying cash for feed, bedding and entries.All of our venues will also have computers at all rings so exhibitors can check the ring status and jump orders from their hotels, campers and PDAs. This service will be with no charge this winter to exhibitors, trainers or owners. This charge will be absorbed by our shows as we want to provide more state of the art services and more value to showing with Classic Company managed events.

Those are some of the new ideas for all shows. You will see more details to come.


12 Weeks - 3 Venues - Over $1.5 Million dollars in prize money & awards


Jacksonville this winter has offered more prize money. NFHJA will offer over $500,000 in total prize money in four weeks. They have kept the $10,000 rider bonus and we have worked on the schedule again so that the hunters can get to all the rings without too many holds. NFHJA has worked very hard to get the best prices on hotels and added a few new ones this year. The prize list has all the information.
The shows have limited stalls and campers so I would not wait too long to make reservations. You can email stalls@nfhja.com (stalls@nfhja.com). Closing date is December 22nd.

Gulfport has added more money in the jumpers along with a new jumper ring and new jumper schooling area. Gulfport will offer over $700,000 in prize money and awards during the six weeks this winter. We have also added a couple of new tent pads and many new camper spots.
Gulfport has added new hotels such as the Residence Inn and Hilton Gardens. Equestrian Travel has worked very hard to get the best rates for us this winter. You can book online at www.equestriantravel.com (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001WFUqbsPhooClNV2F6phUV2VTudRqmCFFKcezUi N9wlS2gDOgq5xDtQB4wPmN3d6_EhJVy7pBb1SAtvB8Ytha2KRh 8GGaSheTPF-ORc7FjvNnGr2USWtoioaK1y7w-ic5). US Airways and American Airlines are serving the new airport in Gulfport this winter. We will be having a great time.
Closing date is January 16th and although we added new tent pads we will not be putting up more tents unless we have reservations -- so don't be slow: stalls@classiccompany.com (stalls@classiccompany.com).

Atlanta will have two weeks to end the winter circuits with over 400 classes each week. The first week will also offer a $7,500 Children's Adult Jumper Classic. Conyers has added some new hotels also. The prize list will be at the printer by Christmas so should be in the mail a bit after new years. It will be online around the 25th.

That was a long email but lots to tell you. If you have any questions, please call or email our office: 843-768-5503 or info@classiccompany.com (info@classiccompany.com).
See you at the rings,

Bob Bell
The Classic Company, Ltd.
www.ClassicCompany.com (http://www.ClassicCompany.com)
Phone/FAX: (843) 768-5503
Post Office Box 1311 Johns Island SC 29457

[Seven-up]

Just got this email from Bob Bell/Classic Company.

'No Braiding' Responses & Other Cost-Cutting Considerations

I want to thank so many of you for your positive emails about the braiding issue. Many had other great ideas for discussion to cut costs and many we will be implementing at the winter shows in 2009. Of course there were the emails from braiders who hated the idea.

One braider's email told me she never braids unrated divisions, but by the end of the email told me I was cutting her income by 40%. Maybe she was just a bit confused from not getting enough sleep and doesn't realize her own contradiction. Another braider tried to calculate the amount of money a show makes but using figures she apparently guessed at and thinks the only expenses a horse show has are facility fees.

I've responded to all the braiders' emails explaining we are not trying to hurt ANYONE, simply finding suggestions to aid all exhibitors during these unusual economic times. We're exploring many options to help people cut costs in and out of the show offices.

Anyway, back to the real issues. We are about to start 12 weeks of shows in three venues: Jacksonville (Jan 7-Feb 1), Gulfport (Feb 4-Mar 15), Atlanta (Mar 18-29), and we have many things to tell you about.

Three new ideas from exhibitors that were discussed by our staff to help with economics were really quite simple and will start in Jacksonville this winter:

Jacksonville and Gulfport will offer a reduced price for shavings if they are picked up at the shavings trailers during defined hours. There will be a morning and an afternoon period where exhibitors can save money on their feed and bedding. Details will be posted in the feed office at each show and more details will follow.
Buy-Me-Hunter classes will be offered at all of our shows this winter. They will be held at the end of the day for trainers to show horses that are for sale to anyone who wants to watch and drink some wine ringside. All horses entered must be legitimately for sale and each trainer will be required to enter the show and fill out a bio form for the announcer to read. There will be no fee for these classes. If this works, we will look at adding ponies and jumpers.
Cash: The costs for Visa, MasterCard, and American Express coupled with the costs of the many, many returned checks we have been given, not to mention the time spent after shows collecting money has brought the staff together to offer a 5% discount for paying cash for feed, bedding and entries.All of our venues will also have computers at all rings so exhibitors can check the ring status and jump orders from their hotels, campers and PDAs. This service will be with no charge this winter to exhibitors, trainers or owners. This charge will be absorbed by our shows as we want to provide more state of the art services and more value to showing with Classic Company managed events.

Those are some of the new ideas for all shows. You will see more details to come.


12 Weeks - 3 Venues - Over $1.5 Million dollars in prize money & awards


Jacksonville this winter has offered more prize money. NFHJA will offer over $500,000 in total prize money in four weeks. They have kept the $10,000 rider bonus and we have worked on the schedule again so that the hunters can get to all the rings without too many holds. NFHJA has worked very hard to get the best prices on hotels and added a few new ones this year. The prize list has all the information.
The shows have limited stalls and campers so I would not wait too long to make reservations. You can email stalls@nfhja.com (stalls@nfhja.com). Closing date is December 22nd.

Gulfport has added more money in the jumpers along with a new jumper ring and new jumper schooling area. Gulfport will offer over $700,000 in prize money and awards during the six weeks this winter. We have also added a couple of new tent pads and many new camper spots.
Gulfport has added new hotels such as the Residence Inn and Hilton Gardens. Equestrian Travel has worked very hard to get the best rates for us this winter. You can book online at www.equestriantravel.com (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001WFUqbsPhooClNV2F6phUV2VTudRqmCFFKcezUi N9wlS2gDOgq5xDtQB4wPmN3d6_EhJVy7pBb1SAtvB8Ytha2KRh 8GGaSheTPF-ORc7FjvNnGr2USWtoioaK1y7w-ic5). US Airways and American Airlines are serving the new airport in Gulfport this winter. We will be having a great time.
Closing date is January 16th and although we added new tent pads we will not be putting up more tents unless we have reservations -- so don't be slow: stalls@classiccompany.com (stalls@classiccompany.com).

Atlanta will have two weeks to end the winter circuits with over 400 classes each week. The first week will also offer a $7,500 Children's Adult Jumper Classic. Conyers has added some new hotels also. The prize list will be at the printer by Christmas so should be in the mail a bit after new years. It will be online around the 25th.

That was a long email but lots to tell you. If you have any questions, please call or email our office: 843-768-5503 or info@classiccompany.com (info@classiccompany.com).
See you at the rings,

Bob Bell
The Classic Company, Ltd.
www.ClassicCompany.com (http://www.ClassicCompany.com)
Phone/FAX: (843) 768-5503
Post Office Box 1311 Johns Island SC 29457



I just got this too. My jaw is still on the floor. I'm afraid I haven't gotten past the parts I highlighted in bold. Is he fucking kidding with this?? What an ass.


ETA: just tried to fire off an e-mail to Bob Bell. It got sent back as undeliverable because his mailbox quota is filled or something. I'm just amazed that this was the way he tried to smooth over the backlash from the no braiding thing.

[Seven-up]

Maybe he doesn't like that he can't charge the braiders a vendors fee, so he wants them gone alltogether. So he's saying you don't have to braid for unrateds, got all the flack from that, and then he said the only bad e-mails were from braiders, but they're too stupid to know how much money they'd lose because they're too tired from staying up all night. He just wants to piss them off so bad they'll never come back. Since he can't make any money off of them. I finally did get an e-mail through telling him how offensive it was and that I "would NOT be seeing him in the ring" and my sale horse can go elsewhere. I mean, why? Why would you send out a letter like that? How could you think that would make things better?


I can't wait to hear from our braider buddies on here once they read his new letter.:mad:

[Gypsy Girl]

:eek: I for one who lives around the Jacksonville area WILL NOT I repeat Will NOT give Classic Company the pleasure of my company or my horses company after the two e-mails this past week. I'll spend my horse show money elsewhere.
I guess he feels like he is "God of horseshow management". If he thinks that having "Buy-Me-Hunter classes with wine" at the end of the day benefits the exhibitors (of whom pays his high salary). He is living in his own bubble.:eek:
As for the cost cutting of the shavings if you go to the trailer and get them yourself (which half the time we have to do this anyway) what are you gonna save..maybe $.50/cents a bag on $7.50/bag. Give Me A Break!!:eek:
And a 5% discount for cash. Who in the heck will be carring around thousands of dollars in cash money in thier pockets. Not me!! :no:
I still do not see where there will be any cost cutting on Management's part to help the exhibitors. He just keeps digging the hole deeper.

[slp]

Cash?? Who the heck carries around the amount of cash that is needed to pay a show bill, let alone several weeks of show bills? Unless they have several on-site ATM's that are reloaded frequently, this is just one of those "see how much show management is doing for you" items that really does nobody any good at all.

[hijumpin1]

I think it's a dirty thing to do to the braiders. They need to put bread on the table too.

[Just My Style]

I do not personally know Bob Bell and I am sure he is a lovely person, but this letter makes him come off like a total a-hole.

[Trixie]

I know things have changed and these big shows are ... well ... big. but that doesn't change the fact that our kids should still be learning some values and get a bit of character building by taking care of their own turnout at least to some degree.

IMO the parents should be doing everything they can do encourage the little ones to take a crack at their own braiding and grooming and the show should support it with the right rules in place.

horse ownership and riding is not just about the riding.

This is a totally different topic. :rolleyes:

Why would you think that those who hire a braider don't know how to take care of their own turnout? How absurd.

[Summit Springs Farm]

Ok the 5% discount for cash is a small begininng, I can run by the cash mashine/bank and get cash.

But come on that's not much, how about the late fees, reducing stall fees,office fees and any other fees that have no real value to us, also the night check fees, please!

[Smiles]

Maybe he should get a p.r. person to write these things because again he stuck it foot in his mouth. The classic company sure has no class... I'm glad I don't travel south to any of those shows... Boy he really is trying to make an effort to save people money. You can get the half broken bag of shavings for $1.00 less or the bag of shavings let are wet for .50 less at those certain hours of the day... :lol: What a douche...

[showjump]

So if you pay your entries with cash and get the 5% discount, is he then in return give you your prize money that day? Or is he going to keep it for a week or more and make money on it?

[ExJumper]

Ok the 5% discount for cash is a small begininng, I can run by the cash mashine/bank and get cash.

But with a $500 or so limit on what you can get out of an ATM at one time, that's 3-4-5-6 visits to the cash machine, depending on the number of horses etc. that you are paying for.

[Janet]

Cash: The costs for Visa, MasterCard, and American Express coupled with the costs of the many, many returned checks we have been given, not to mention the time spent after shows collecting money has brought the staff together to offer a 5% discount for paying cash for feed, bedding and entries.

A - if you offer a "discount for cash", you are violating the terms of the credit card company contract. Then they won't let you use credit cards AT ALL.

B- When I was a kid, I paid for my entries at an AHSA show with cash- my babysitting money. A few weeks later, we got a nasty letter saying we had not paid our entry fees. With cash, there is no paper trail. I would NEVER pay entry fees with cash. From then on, I gave my babysitting cash to my mother, an SHE wrote a check.

[ExJumper]

A - if you offer a "discount for cash", you are violating the terms of the credit card company contract. Then they won't let you use credit cards AT ALL.

B- When I was a kid, I paid for my entries at an AHSA show with cash- my babysitting money. A few weeks later, we got a nasty letter saying we had not paid our entry fees. With cash, there is no paper trail. I would NEVER pay entry fees with cash. From then on, I gave my babysitting cash to my mother, an SHE wrote a check.

Excellent points.

Care to try again, Bob?

[bascher]

I'm not sure how comfortable I would be with taking out large amounts of money from a public ATM and then carrying it around with me..it depends on where you are and all that, bust still, I don't like to have huge amounts of cash on me and I don't like to think that people see me take out huge amounts of cash. That can be a disaster waiting to happen. Yes I know it probably won't happen, but as a young woman in college, I make sure that I am extra careful with everything. Not that horse shows are necessarily the same, but still...

Plus that second email was just so condescending towards braiders. I respect our braiders so much for all that they do and I cannot fathom how a show manager would think that that email would solve anything.

[Mel0309]

A - if you offer a "discount for cash", you are violating the terms of the credit card company contract. Then they won't let you use credit cards AT ALL.

B- When I was a kid, I paid for my entries at an AHSA show with cash- my babysitting money. A few weeks later, we got a nasty letter saying we had not paid our entry fees. With cash, there is no paper trail. I would NEVER pay entry fees with cash. From then on, I gave my babysitting cash to my mother, an SHE wrote a check.

Not saying that his idea was that good - logistics of carrying large amounts of cash is not good. But as far as paying in cash - always get a receipt with a signature from the show secretary. It will save you from situations like that.

[Trixie]

I can imagine that as a kid paying for horse shows with babysitting money one might not think to get a receipt... though of course, you're correct.

One braider's email told me she never braids unrated divisions, but by the end of the email told me I was cutting her income by 40%. Maybe she was just a bit confused from not getting enough sleep and doesn't realize her own contradiction. Another braider tried to calculate the amount of money a show makes but using figures she apparently guessed at and thinks the only expenses a horse show has are facility fees.

This is really a bit tacky and petty to put into a statement.

[Nikki^]

It seems that Bob didn't really read our suggestions like:


Weekend Stall rates of $35.00
Getting rid of Service Fee
Lowering Grounds fee from $30 to $5
Lowering unrated enteries from $150 to $50
Lowering rated enteries fees by 20%
Up Jumper prize money by 20%
Getting rid of Nom. Fee
Making Night Security optional
Instead he just pulled out some ideas out of his ass and expect us to get all giddy. :rolleyes:

I hope they get rid of that stupid Mileage Rule really soon as in like the end of this year.

[pds]

What about offering a multi-divison disocunt. 5% discount if rider shows in two or more divisioins.

What about a circuit discount. Some shows last two weeks some three and others 6 weeks or more. Why not offer a 10% discount to riders that show all weeks?

How about a multi horse discount. Showing two or more horses gets you a 5% discount.

How about a $ voulme discount. 5% discount on every $500.00 spent on entries, stalls, fees, etc.

How about a show loyalty discount. Show "x" number of weeks (don't have to be consecutive)throughout the year with the same show company and get a 10% discount.

How about a multi-stall discount. Three or more stalls and recieve a 5% discount.

How about a $25.00 strip your own stall rebate?

How about a day rate or 1/2 week rate for stalls?

How about a discount lottery. All competitor names are entered into a drawing to be held at the end of each weeks GP. 10 names are drawn and announced that they will be recieving a 10% discount on that weeks show fees.

Just some ideas. Probably not very good one but I thought I would put them out there.

[Nikki^]

How about a $25.00 strip your own stall rebate?

How about a day rate or 1/2 week rate for stalls?



Just some ideas. Probably not very good one but I thought I would put them out there.

I would love to strip my stall for a $25 rebate :D.

The weekend rate of $35 dollars would be great. Ship in Friday morning (or afternoon) and leave Sunday Afternoon. That would be great for the 40/hr week working Ammies.:D

[dags]

We have sponsored the Classic Company horse shows for 4 years. I have never been anything but thrilled with the service they have given us, and have felt many, many times they have gone above and beyond what was expected of them per our agreement.

I don't really consider Classic Company on the level with HITS and Equestrian Sport, and quite frankly, that's one of the reasons I like them. They have always, in my opinion and I've seen it stated many, many times on here, given greater consideration to the individual exhibitor than either of those circuits.

Having worked with CC for 4 years I find it hard to believe they had ANY of these intentions in mind. I believe this was a PR failure, and as a concerned sponsor I have sent an email to them expressing this.

With better wording the point was that judges were to be reminded there are no penalties for unbraided horses in the unrateds . . . I'm not entirely sure you can tie a whole "exhibitor economic relief plan" to this, but as part of an entire presentation it probably would have gone unnoticed.

Both sides have points: The show managers did not come off well, but I'm also not sure any of us can matter-of-factly point to expenses as frivolous and demand they be cut in half, unless you've run a USEF rated, 6 ring, 7 week horse show yourself. Except for night watch, I gotta agree about that one . . .

Someone that knows how to run both an AQHA and a USEF HJ show really should run those comparisons because THAT could be a very sound arguement.

The whole dang sport is expensive, the show managers aren't going to suddenly make it affordable for you. At the same time, in the interest of the SPORT, there are prohibitive costs that could and should be reconsidered by management, and we need to smartly encourage them to do that.

[dags]

The weekend rate of $35 dollars would be great. Ship in Friday morning (or afternoon) and leave Sunday Afternoon. That would be great for the 40/hr week working Ammies.:D

The problem is this: that stall has to sit empty all week waiting for your horse to come and pay $35 to be in it for 3 days- fri/sat/sun, that's about $11/day for that stall, and 3 days that it must sit empty.

Vs. $250 that will show up on the same day as everyone else, stay the whole week, buy more shavings, food, tack, etc and show in more classes than you.

That just isn't going to work for them, the incentive to cater to your particular needs as an exhibitor cannot result in that much of a profit loss. In their mind, they are already hosting the show, that is all the catering they need to do.

Circuits that go the extra step to cater will do better (especially if we get rid of the mileage rule), but no one can take that big a financial hit to do it. We can't just throw numbers out there, there needs to be some logic to the suggestions if they are going to be taken seriously.

[Summit Springs Farm]

It seems that Bob didn't really read our suggestions like:


Weekend Stall rates of $35.00
Getting rid of Service Fee
Lowering Grounds fee from $30 to $5
Lowering unrated enteries from $150 to $50
Lowering rated enteries fees by 20%
Up Jumper prize money by 20%
Getting rid of Nom. Fee
Making Night Security optional
Instead he just pulled out some ideas out of his ass and expect us to get all giddy. :rolleyes:

I hope they get rid of that stupid Mileage Rule really soon as in like the end of this year.


All great ideas!!

[Summit Springs Farm]

What about offering a multi-divison disocunt. 5% discount if rider shows in two or more divisioins.

What about a circuit discount. Some shows last two weeks some three and others 6 weeks or more. Why not offer a 10% discount to riders that show all weeks?

How about a multi horse discount. Showing two or more horses gets you a 5% discount.

How about a $ voulme discount. 5% discount on every $500.00 spent on entries, stalls, fees, etc.

How about a show loyalty discount. Show "x" number of weeks (don't have to be consecutive)throughout the year with the same show company and get a 10% discount.

How about a multi-stall discount. Three or more stalls and receive a 5% discount.

How about a $25.00 strip your own stall rebate?

How about a day rate or 1/2 week rate for stalls?

How about a discount lottery. All competitor names are entered into a drawing to be held at the end of each weeks GP. 10 names are drawn and announced that they will be receiving a 10% discount on that weeks show fees.

Just some ideas. Probably not very good one but I thought I would put them out there.

Again More Great Ideas!! You guys are good!!

Are you listening Show Managers???

[pds]

Wow! Someone thought I had some good ideas? That sure does'nt happen often.:)

[Giddy-up]

Buy-Me-Hunter classes will be offered at all of our shows this winter. They will be held at the end of the day for trainers to show horses that are for sale to anyone who wants to watch and drink some wine ringside. All horses entered must be legitimately for sale and each trainer will be required to enter the show and fill out a bio form for the announcer to read. There will be no fee for these classes. If this works, we will look at adding ponies and jumpers.

How is this saving people money? They are paying the bills to bring the horse to the show anyways. And now you want people to hang around waiting for whenever the show finishes to sit at the ring & watch however many horses go so they can see which ones they want?? But giving them wine (which will probably be sponsored anyways) makes it all better? I wonder if the show will then ask for a percentage of the sale price as well--like an auction house or something. You know..."to cover their costs" since they will need a ring crew on hand & jumps & staff to run the "sale" ring.

Perhaps this is a good idea, but I don't see how it saves people money? :confused:

[Nikki^]

The problem is this: that stall has to sit empty all week waiting for your horse to come and pay $35 to be in it for 3 days- fri/sat/sun, that's about $11/day for that stall, and 3 days that it must sit empty.


But you can set a tent aside for the weekend riders. This can work, they just have to make it work. They can send out a e-mail asking who would like this idea and who would use this service. Also, they can use the tent for those who only ride Tues-Thurs classes so the stalls would be filled anyway. Break up the week. Have rates for those who want to stay Tues-Thurs and those what want to stay Fri-Sun.

For the people who live close by and only show the weekend classes it would be great. I work 40/hr a week and I cannot afford day care nor those HUGE stall fees. With this "Weekend Stall rate" I can take Friday off and stay the weekend, taking care of my horse and competing. Believe me, more people will come to the show. The more people, the more feed, shavings, entries, shopping:D, etc.....

I am thinking for the ones who don't have a huge income, but want to compete in the shows. If you cater not just to the rich, but to everyone, I bet you would get more sponsors and a huge turnout.

The horse show managers need to be flexible.

[mroades]

Or...let people share a stall, you know, if you are there tues-thurs, then you pay 100, and then 100 for fri-sun, management still gets stall $ but exhibitor gets some relief. Currently, this is not allowed.

[Santpoort]

I like how they cut costs that have no impact on them. It impacts the braider's income, not HITS bottom line.


No sh^t, huh? Wow, that is irritating. Can they maybe cor some of those ridiculous exorbitant freaking fees they keep coming up with? I will be showing at the local level this year, thankyouveryfreakingmuch...

[Santpoort]

What about offering a multi-divison disocunt. 5% discount if rider shows in two or more divisioins.

What about a circuit discount. Some shows last two weeks some three and others 6 weeks or more. Why not offer a 10% discount to riders that show all weeks?

How about a multi horse discount. Showing two or more horses gets you a 5% discount.

How about a $ voulme discount. 5% discount on every $500.00 spent on entries, stalls, fees, etc.

How about a show loyalty discount. Show "x" number of weeks (don't have to be consecutive)throughout the year with the same show company and get a 10% discount.

How about a multi-stall discount. Three or more stalls and recieve a 5% discount.

How about a $25.00 strip your own stall rebate?

How about a day rate or 1/2 week rate for stalls?

How about a discount lottery. All competitor names are entered into a drawing to be held at the end of each weeks GP. 10 names are drawn and announced that they will be recieving a 10% discount on that weeks show fees.

Just some ideas. Probably not very good one but I thought I would put them out there.

Great ideas, pds:yes:! I sure hope someone is 'listening'...

[Ruby G. Weber]

Support the buy-me-hunter/sip wine concept. That's an idea that could help buyers and sellerls.

[Giddy-up]

Support the buy-me-hunter/sip wine concept. That's an idea that could help buyers and sellerls.

Like I said, it could be a good idea.
But again how does that save exhibitors money??? :confused:

[DMK]

well, if part of your "showing budget" includes selling a horse, that is certainly going to help you out...

[MissintheSouth]

Bob Bell really needs to invest some of those profits in a PR Company.

This isn't the first time I have gotten "letters" from CC that are written terribly and reflect poorly on CC. Remember the one his wife wrote to local stores looking for sponsors a while back? Tact and professionalism are two qualities that are solerly missing in my opinion.

[pds]

Bob Bell really needs to invest some of those profits in a PR Company.

This isn't the first time I have gotten "letters" from CC that are written terribly and reflect poorly on CC. Remember the one his wife wrote to local stores looking for sponsors a while back? Tact and professionalism are two qualities that are solerly missing in my opinion.


Wasn't that PSJ? I seem to recall a letter or press release went out in the last year or so from PSJ that got alot of negative attention.

Regardless, it is painfully evident that they all need some serious professional PR help. And I don't mean from the likes of Phelps. They need a real PR company.

[MissintheSouth]

Wasn't that PSJ? I seem to recall a letter or press release went out in the last year or so from PSJ that got alot of negative attention.

Regardless, it is painfully evident that they all need some professional PR help. And I don't mean from the likes of Phelps. They need a real PR company.

Hm, maybe I am mixing my inappropriate letters from Southeastern Show Mgmt groups!

[APirateLooksAtForty]

uh, that was PSJ. Bob Bell doesn't have a wife ;)

[Comfortably Numb]

What kind of wine are they serving for those "Buy a Hunter" classes? Is it cheapo crap, or something with some sort of magic potion that blinds the portion of the eye responsible for recognizing knee hanging?

[Smiles]

What kind of wine are they serving for those "Buy a Hunter" classes? Is it cheapo crap, or something with some sort of magic potion that blinds the portion of the eye responsible for recognizing knee hanging?


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: They will only have the best box wine money can buy!!!

[DMK]

What kind of wine are they serving for those "Buy a Hunter" classes? Is it cheapo crap, or something with some sort of magic potion that blinds the portion of the eye responsible for recognizing knee hanging?

I do believe any wine that is both free and plentiful helps with that problem!

I know most of our tack stores around here have fully employed the open bar christmas party "drunken buying" logic. Works too!

[Comfortably Numb]

Reading the Bell Email, it sounds like the Buy Me Hunter class is an opportunity to get in the ring, with no other horses, and school for free. Sure the horse has to be for sale. I can put a price tag of 500,000 on my nag, school and not have to worry about having someone buy him. And it didn't say the wine was free, just that you could drink it.

[Seven-up]

Is the Buy Me Hunter class free to enter?


I thought the idea to have that sort of class is a great idea, but I just didn't see how it had anything to do with saving money.


I remember reading something about how at some shows, you pay a little something to have a red sticker stuck on your number if the horse was for sale. That way, you knew what horses were actively for sale, without having to ask. I think that's a better idea than the buy me hunter class. What if your sale horse isn't ready for the fence height of the buy me class? What if (and this is likely) most people are paying more attention to the wine and conversation than the horses in the ring? Because you know there probably won't be enough wine, and you'll have to stand in line to get it...

[ynl063w]

Jesus, they are offering a place for people to showcase their sale horses for FREE. If your horse isn't ready for the height, don't participate (although they might just offer more than one height section - who knows?). Of course there will be some people who show up for the social aspect and free wine, but what serious buyer would miss a chance to see a bunch of sale horses all at once? This is an opportunity for sale horses to get what amounts to real show ring experience, at no cost to the seller. How can anyone complain about that?

The amount of complaining on some of these threads is astounding. Showing horses is not a God-given right.

[pwynnnorman]

Jesus, they are offering a place for people to showcase their sale horses for FREE. If your horse isn't ready for the height, don't participate (although they might just offer more than one height section - who knows?). Of course there will be some people who show up for the social aspect and free wine, but what serious buyer would miss a chance to see a bunch of sale horses all at once? This is an opportunity for sale horses to get what amounts to real show ring experience, at no cost to the seller. How can anyone complain about that?

The amount of complaining on some of these threads is astounding. Showing horses is not a God-given right.

I second those emotions!

I think it's great how some folks are starting to think. 'Bout time the industry climbed out of its crotchety old traditions and high-brow constraints!:yes:

[Seven-up]

Jesus, they are offering a place for people to showcase their sale horses for FREE. If your horse isn't ready for the height, don't participate (although they might just offer more than one height section - who knows?). Of course there will be some people who show up for the social aspect and free wine, but what serious buyer would miss a chance to see a bunch of sale horses all at once? This is an opportunity for sale horses to get what amounts to real show ring experience, at no cost to the seller. How can anyone complain about that?

The amount of complaining on some of these threads is astounding. Showing horses is not a God-given right.


Why are you Jesus-ing me? If you noticed, I said I thought it was a good idea. I'm asking questions, and I think the buy me class was something they threw in there because their money-saving list wasn't long enough. And it's hardly no cost to the seller. When you add up the total bill, the entry fees are a pretty small part. Of course it's not a god-given right. Who said it was? We're simply annoyed at the false advertizing-- they claim to be trying to save us money by suggesting we skip out on costs that don't affect them. They're getting tons of good suggestions on how they could cut back on their fees, but instead they try to distract us by getting us drunk? Many of us will be drunk by the end of the day anyway. :winkgrin:

[AHhntr]

What I don't get, is why people at Hunter shows feel the need to have their horses rebraided every night. I grew up showing only Hunters, and now I show some AQHA with my hunters too. I understand if your horse rubs his braids really badly. But a few of my hunters' (I braid my own and my clients horses) braids will still look good after 3 days at a weekend show. And my customers appreciate the lesser costs.

[ExJumper]

What I don't get, is why people at Hunter shows feel the need to have their horses rebraided every night. I grew up showing only Hunters, and now I show some AQHA with my hunters too. I understand if your horse rubs his braids really badly. But a few of my hunters' (I braid my own and my clients horses) braids will still look good after 3 days at a weekend show. And my customers appreciate the lesser costs.

Your customers may appreciate the savings, but I'm sure your horses aren't too thrilled. Good braids are tight. Tight braids aren't comfortable.

My horse carts my ass around every day. The least I can do for him is not torture him by leaving tight itchy braids in all weekend! Personally I think that's pretty cruel.

It's not a money thing. It's a horsemanship issue.

[ynl063w]

But you said you didn't understand how the Buy Me Hunter classes (with no entry fee) are saving anyone any money, then said it was a better idea to pay entry fees for regular classes, PLUS pay extra for a red dot on the number signifying that the horse is for sale. If you have a sale horse at the show, entering classes with no entry fee will save money over entering classes that do involve an entry fee. You said Buy Me Hunter classes are a good idea, then you proceeded to list several ways in which it's NOT a good idea. You don't like the idea of them providing wine at the end of the day because you're already spending your own money on booze throughout the day. You're really not making much sense.