Broodmare with pneumonia; jingles... Sad update

[Faiths CremelloWB]

Had a broodmare go off her feed one evening. The next morning still not eating but normal temperature. She was taking a mouthful but not chewing and then she would turn her head sideways and paw. It was like she wanted to eat but it hurt to chew. That afternoon had vet out to check teeth. Did teeth as there were some sharps and also put some oil down as her gut sounds were minimal, she was also put on penicillin. That evening mare spiked a 103.2 fever and really labored breathing. Vet back out at 10pm and gave a bunch of meds as well as tube again because still not making much for gut sounds. Temp goes back to normal and is good in morning but still labored breathing. At 2pm temp goes back up to 102.5 and vet is called out again. Breathing very labored still but could not hear any fluids in her lungs.

Decision made to take her to the hospital as something odd was going on and my vet did not know what to do without further diagnostics. She is carrying a 5 month old foal to complicate matters more so my vet did not want to use any steroids.

At the hospital that ultrasound her and we see the foals heart beat and it is normal. Thank goodness it too is not in distress. Mare is scoped, oxygen tube put in, chest xrays taken, lots of blood etc... The xrays reveal severely compromised lungs and they are worried about the foal getting enough oxygen as mare is having trouble transferring the oxygen to her blood.

Now a day later her breathing is much better (not labored) but she is only transferring enough oxygen to her blood when she is on the oxygen tube. Take that away and levels drop quite a bit and below what is considered normal. So as I await the call this morning from vets I could really use some jingles that she is holding her own now.

She is on a strong course of antibiotics but now that she is drinking on her own she has been taken off fluids. YAY! She is also eating pretty good again which I am quite happy about. And now that she is eating again her gut sounds are normal.

A repro specialist is going to be looking at her and the foal this morning. So I pray that the foal is still doing well with a regular heart beat.

She is in good hands so I pray her and the foal pull through. I have never had a horse with pneumonia before and we are baffled how or why she got it. It did come on quite quick. Anyone here have a horse that had it before? How long does it take to get rid of it? I am sure each case varies but I hope she does not have to stay at the hospital for a week or more. We all know too well how expensive it can get.

Get well soon Golden Belle...

[Quinn]

Sending you jingles and positive thoughts for Golden Belle. She appears to be going in the right direction!

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

[Home Again Farm]

Sending many jingles from FL.

[foxhavenfarm]

Sending mre jingles from FL. Belle is my favorite of your mares and I hope she is better soon and delivers a healthy foal next year!

[genevieveg17]

Jingles for Belle from California

[Tasker]

Jingles from PA.

[AnnaCrew]

More jingles for Belle from Latvia!
Each morning when I go to se my girl it is my main concern about so I can imagine how hard it is!

[fish]

Jingles from NC!

[poneez]

She's my favourite mare of yours as well. Huge jingles, I know what it's like to pray for these in-foal mamas and their babes. Please do keep us posted.

[sid]

So very sorry to hear about this.

Yes, I've had a mare with pneumonia (but not PG at the time). She was treated at home with an aggressive regime Gentocin IV and Naxcel. She was elderly (age 29) and battling the later stages of COPD, which we presume made her vulnerable. In fact, she had it twice and pulled through both times uneventfully.

I hope that is the case for your mare as well -- if my old, old gal pulled through, yours will too!!

Best,

Susan

[amdfarm]

Jingles for Golden Belle. Hope she's feeling better soon and that her baby stays healthy.

My only pneumonia experience was w/ a friend's weanling colt a couple years ago and it wasn't a happy ending sadly. :( This colt was my colt's weaning buddy and he was very sad also.

[Bugs-n-Frodo]

Jingling from SoCal.

[3Dogs]

more jingles from NC - poor gal and mega jingles too for the little one on the inside.

[VirginiaBred]

Prayers and well wishes for your girl from Virginia.

[Hear_my_echo]

Jingles!!

[Faiths CremelloWB]

Thanks so much everyone. She is a special mare to me for many reasons. She is a trouper for sure. Before I purchased her she had had colic surgery while pregnant and she maintained the pregnancy to foal a lovely colt. She has had 3 foals since then and never another problem with the colic, knock on wood...

Spoke to vet this evening and she is doing better now. She is holding her own off the oxygen now and the air/blood exchange is above the norm so that is working well again.

The repro specialist looked at her today and the placenta looks great, no thickening. There is a small separation right at the cervix, which I am told can be normal in mares that have had a few foals. They are going to caslick her to be on the safe side. She is to remain on antibiotics IV for several days still. They are going to xray her chest again tomorrow and see how it is. If it is clearing up then she should be on her way home in the next day or so. I am more than capable of doing IV antibiotics and if that is all they are doing she can come home. They suggested doing some more tests with putting fluid in her lungs and then pulling it out by scoping her. I asked if that would change the course of treatment and I was told no. So I told them not to do it. If she is getting better I do not want to put anything down into her lungs or spend more money and keep her there for longer to run the tests. If the lungs are exchanging air well, her breathing is back to normal, her temperature is down, her gut is moving well then no reason for her to stay.

So now with a little more luck and jingles her xrays tomorrow will be much better and she will be on her way home.

[Galileo1998]

I will continue thinking good thoughts for your girl!

[HSGF]

Sending lots of jingles!!

[onqhanoverians]

With all the jingles and love sent the way of your mare, I expect improvement by mid-day tomorrow. Keep us posted!

[dressagetraks]

Glad she's improving, but I'll still send more jingles! Hope for even better tomorrow.

[Faiths CremelloWB]

Thanks again...

She has remained about the same for the last 24 hours and they have put off chest xrays until tomorrow morning. So the plan, as long as xrays look better, is to go and pick her up tomorrow. Can hardly wait to get her home and give her a good brush.

[Faiths CremelloWB]

and for anyone who would like to see her... here is a link to her page on my site. There are some really neat photos taken by Barbara Livingston at the bottom of the page in the snow. Those were taken last winter...

http://www.blazingcoloursfarm.com/goldenbelle.html

[amdfarm]

She's such a pretty mare and Kings Ransom is also beautiful. Should be a nice foal. Hope she continues to improve and will be home soon.

Jingles continue though...

[nsm]

Sending lots of jingles from the Midwest, as well as best wishes, prayers and positive thoughts. Hope she comes home soon--

Nancy

[JGHIRETIRE]

She's lovely!!!
Hope she keeps getting better!!

[maxxtrot]

jingles from florida and hope she continues to only get better.

[karin@dutchbreeders@aol.com]

Jingles coming your way from Pennsylvania.....
Karin

[Sakura Hill Farm]

April,

She's a buddy of Lily's! Jingles from Florida....

[Faiths CremelloWB]

Thanks so much everyone...

Unfortunately she lost the foal :( So sad. I went out to the stall and there was the poor little thing and she was nickering to it. I was bawling. :(:( She had seemed to be getting better as her breathing was back to normal and her temp was normal, though she was eating well and then after two weeks of being home she lost it. I had the vet out and we flushed her and had her on antibiotics for just over a week.

Now a week or so after she lost the foal she is still not eating well and vets think (as I had originally thought before the pneumonia was diagnosed) something is wrong with her jaw and/or throat. At least she is over the pneumonia and can breath well with a normal temperature. I did facial xrays and nothing really came up. It is suggested to go to a specialist now and inject something that is attracted to heated bone areas so we can see where the bone is being effected. If there is bone effected. She will eat if given banamine and bute but as soon as she is off bute a day or so she stops eating. Even with the pain meds she is slow to eat and just not her normal self. Just quite depressed and this is how she has been the whole time.

I feel so bad for her as I know how she normally is and she is far from that. She usually enjoys her feed so much. Not having been eating well for quite some time now she looks like crap.

Anyone been through something like this before??? any ideas??? She has been changed to different grain now that is high in fat and is being given a fat supplement so anything she does eat is loaded with calories. She has several buckets hanging in her stall with different feeds. I have tried hay cubes soaked and not soaked, hay extender pellets and chunks, different sweet feeds. It is so tough seeing her depressed and not wanting to eat. :cry:

I love my Golden Belle... hope she turns around soon and we find out why this is going on.

We do need more jingles

[Home Again Farm]

I have no experience with anything like this, but am sending my condolences for the loss of the foal and best jingles for your sweet mare's recovery.

[amdfarm]

I'm glad she's home, but so sorry she lost the foal. ((((HUGS)))) and condolences.

When my vet's stallion broke his jaw he would still eat, but it had to be like oatmeal mash.

Hope you can get her figured out.

Jingles!!!

[Signature]

Oh my, so so sorry to hear about the loss of the baby and that the mare is still not herself. Fingers crossed and sending lots of jingles that she recovers very soon. :(

The only thing I can relate to that happened with us was that we had a mare start to lose weight, and then refuse to eat, similar as to what you're describing. She began to collect fluid in her chest, it was quite odd. We did bloodwork, and it did not show anything really amiss to cause her to be anorexic, no temperature either - she slowly got to where she literally would not eat ANYTHING, not even the finest alfalfa, carrots, etc. She was depressed and getting alarmingly thin (also carrying a foal at the time, 7 mo along), and so she went down to NC State; at first they thought she had pneumonia but they did a throat lavage of some sort and it came back with cancerous cells. Sadly she was euthanized :(, and upon autopsy they found she was riddled with tumors around her heart, lungs and throat - probably painful to eat and she just felt bad, so that was what we were seeing with the anorexia. They said pneumonia is usually secondary, so I hope your mare doesn't have something else going on. It's so heartbreaking. :(

[cottagefarm]

I'm so sorry for the loss of your foal and the continued illness of your mare!

Not had too much exerience of pneaumonia apart from an older gelding that was found to have an abcess (bastard strangles) in his chest cavity. That was found post-mortem.:cry:

The only other thing I can think of if she choked and got aspiration pneaumonia and she has an encapsulated infection (from a foreign body) somewhere in her trachea . I was talking to a friend who is a nurse the other day and she was saying that if an infection of some kind is encapsulated (usually in bone) the antibiotics cannot get to it.

Sounds like you have a great team working with her :yes:
Prayers and hugs for a successful outcome.

[kookicat]

I'm so sorry for the loss of your foal, and I'm sending more jingles for your mare.

[MagicRoseFarm]

So sorry you are going through this, and very hopeful your mare will be ok.

I think I should inform you tho, I know someone whose mare exhibited these signs, foal was born dismature, and upon intensive vet care ,. the mare was found to have bone cancer in her jaw. It was not treatable, and the owners felt very bad, but they were following instructions from a mis diagnosis for the last months prior to birth of the foal, without realizing the seriousness of the entire situation early on.

[Maddie]

So sorry about the loss of her foal and sending jingles Belle's way. I've seen photo's of her on your site and she's absolutely beautiful. I hope you and the vet's are able to sort out what's happening. Sending good vibes to your girl!

[VirginiaBred]

I'm so very sorry. :(

[Whitfield Farm Hanoverians]

Jingling for a complete recovery. So sorry about the loss of the foal. I'm keeping you both in my prayers.

[TinkerBells]

She is sooo beautiful. And I am so very sorry to hear about the foal :cry:
I wish I had some advice for you, but all I can do is send many Jingles your way. Please keep us updated.

[Baroquecoco]

I had a mare a few years ago that had a terrible bout with pneumonia. she was off her feed so long that she simple would not eat. so put of desperation we tubed her three times a day with the same stuff you would give cows with scours. after about a week she started to eat on her own. it was a terrible time. best of luck to you. we are lighting a candle here for your girl.

[sid]

So very sad. Have they eliminated the possibility of lymphosarcoma in the esophageal area? That would affect eating discomfort/ability and could have been a precursor to pneumonia. Just a thought, as I had a mare with similar symptoms as you describe (though the cancer was very evident in her chest cavity as well (not lungs).

I'll keep my fingers crossed that they find the answer (and it's NOT that) and your lovely girl will be on the mend soon. I'm sure she is mourning, as wonderful broodmares often do after losing their foal. So sad.

Best,

Susan

[Faiths CremelloWB]

Looks like we are doing a nuclear bone scan... like this http://behindthebit.blogspot.com/2008/09/bone-scans-putting-your-horse-on-hot.html next. We have just decided to do this and I was wondering if this would show cancer of the bone too???

She has had an xray of the lungs which showed lots of fluid but no cancer spots. That was what the vets up at the hospital said. She had a true pneumonia.

When this all started many weeks ago she simply went off her feed. She wanted to eat but would paw at it and not eat. That was for a day or so then I called my vet out. Her gut had slowed down (not eaten anything in 24 hours) so vet thought colic. I thought teeth. So she was tubed and had her teeth done. Then that evening (several hours later) after being tubed she developed pneumonia severely!!! Very labored breathing and high temp. So the thought was perhaps she got some oil down there during tubing for colic. She never had an classic colic signs other than slow gut sounds but she was not eating. In hind sight I should have not jumped on vets suggestion to tube her. Labored breathing and high temp she was rushed to hospital. Vets at hospital said not likely oil in lungs as it would only be in the lower portion of the lungs. Her lungs were filled with fluid. And she had a very high fever.

well now that all that is dealt with we are back where we started. No fever and simply not wanting to eat unless on pain meds. A depressed attitude and even on pain meds does not eat normally but she will eat some.

So off for a nuclear bone scan next week. This mare is so sweet and it just breaks my heart to see her like this.

Thanks for the jingles and stories about situations similar. I will definitely asking the specialist about cancer when I take her up there. I pray it is not that!!!!

[Faiths CremelloWB]

Sid wrote: So very sad. Have they eliminated the possibility of lymphosarcoma in the esophageal area? That would affect eating discomfort/ability and could have been a precursor to pneumonia. Just a thought, as I had a mare with similar symptoms as you describe (though the cancer was very evident in her chest cavity as well (not lungs).


To diagnose that what would one do? She has had a chest xrays on two occasions and has been scoped several times. Nothing on the scope and the chest xrays just showed lots of fluids.

[sid]

Hi Faith,

I don't know, really. I was just tossing this out as a possibility.

I'm not sure a scope would show this, but a radiograph of the chest CAVITY (not the lungs) as it makes its way up to the throat (windpipe) might. My mare's cancer was in the chest cavity and had worked its way up into her throat, but could only be seen by radiograph.

If your mare's chest xrays showed lots of fluids it's conceivable the lungs were too cloudy to see any sort of problem in the chest cavity itself (area between both lungs). Had my mare had cloudy/fluidy lungs, I'm sure they couldn't have detected the pebble-like tumors in the cavity that was causing pressure and eating problems. I saw my mare's xrays and her lungs were clear, but if the lungs were cloudy there's no way to have seen those tumors. When the took xrays facing her through her chest (between both lungs) and up her neck, it was confirmed.

I could be way off base, and my thoughts were not intended to worry you -- just seems a bit similar.

Hang in. I'm sure this is driving you crazy. Hugs to your girl.

[EquineLVR]

Jingling like crazy here in CO!!

[Donella]

Aww that is just so heartbreaking:( I am so sorry for your loss, from one breeder to another. Lots of jingles for the mama!

[aurum]

Just see this thread and I so much love Golden Belle! I hope she will soon be better, jingles from Germany!

[can't re-]

I am so sorry Belle lost her foal.
Jingles for Belle from FL.

[race_run_jump]

So sorry to hear about her. She is such a lovely mare. Good luck with the scan - they are amazing. Keep us updated. (And keep warm! With VA so cold - I can only imagine how icky it is your way!)
Erika

[Kinsella]

Belle was always one of my favorites... Fingers crossed she can pull through this and be back to her sweet beautiful self.

[arizonard]

Aw April, I am so sorry to hear this. I imagine this has been very heartbreaking for you. All the best for the lovely Belle.

[ljshorses]

We've been out of the country and just got back and saw this thread. Oh April I am so sorry. I am jingling like crazy for your mare!!! Best wishes.

[cavalli]

Lots of jingles and prayers, in the hope that the vets will soon figure out what is wrong with your girl.

[HSGF]

I am so sorry for your loss.....sending lots of Jingles to your mare....

[Rhyadawn]

So so sorry for your loss April. I'm sending prayers your way. I hope they get to the bottom of this soon.

[Freedom Sporthorses]

Very sorry for the loss of your foal April. Jingles for Belle that she will be better soon! She has a special place in our heart as she is the dam of our stallion Magic.

[Faiths CremelloWB]

Thanks so very much everyone. She is a special mare for sure and it is nice to know that some of you guys like her too. Vet is on his way out here this morning to check her, again. And we make the final decision of where we are going to go. He is suggesting to do a full set of facial xrays at the hospital before we do the bone scan. I really do not care what we do but I want this figured out once and for all. All the not knowing if driving me crazy.

And Freedom Sporthorses.. WOW. Finally someone has him who can taken decent photos. I cringed at the photos posted by his last owners who left his mane long and full of wind knots. Please do e-mail me as I would love to know more about him and your plans. postmaster@blazingcoloursfarm.com I would also like to use a few pictures of him on my site on her page. She is Oldenburg (GOV) approved; did you know that? Belle is a fabulous mare and is all I could want and more. Her daughter, White Beauty is also one of my favorites. She got Belles head. I will post photos later today of some of Belle kids for you to compare to your guy. I have the farrier and vet coming this morning so I better get back outside...

Thanks again for all the good wishes...

[TKR]

Here's hoping you can identify your mare's problem and fix it quickly. So very sorry for the loss of your foal.

PennyG

[Crossroads Farm]

Oh, no, April!

I just saw this thread- I'm crossing all my fingers and toes that you'll be able to figure out what's going on with your poor girl! So sorry about the loss of the foal :( Hang in there!!!!!

[Equusanna]

Oh no. I thought (and was hoping) the worst may have been over.:cry: April I'm so sorry to read this today. Jingles Jingles (and prayers) for Belle.

Freedom Sporthorses nice picture of Magic. Belle is also the dam of my buckskin gelding (also out x Kings Ransom so they are full brothers).

[Freedom Sporthorses]

Still crossing our fingers and jingling like crazy that Belle will make a full recovery...any news???
Thanks for the kind words about Magic, would love to see pictures of his "brother" as well.

[Faiths CremelloWB]

Thanks so very much for the kind wishes, thoughts and jingles. Vet was out yesterday and did another whole exam. He pulled some blood AGAIN. Must have been the 10th time the poor mare has had her blood taken. I guess they are going to check for EPM which I am quite sure it is not. Vets are always trying to find other things that it could be. ARG. She is scheduled in for a bone scan next Monday. That is the soonest they could get us in so I have to continue to keep trying to get her to eat what I can. A good note. Vet does not think she looks that bad considering she has not been eating much. He said she looked worse when she was in foal. So if I have to take the little bits of good news... I will take that.

Here is Equusanna's gelding (full brother to Magic) who was born in 2005. This photo was taken in Feb 08 and he was a young 3 year old. http://www.blazingcoloursfarm.com/Beau%20feb08.JPG

This is Golden Belle's 2006 filly, White Beauty by Kings Ransom. She is a cremello. This photo was taken in Nov of 2008 as a 2 year old.
http://www.blazingcoloursfarm.com/WhiteBeauty%20royal%2008%20(17)a.jpg
And this is her page with lots of cute pictures of her as a foal. http://www.blazingcoloursfarm.com/whitebeauty.html

And here is Golden Belle's 2007 colt, White Pharaoh by Sato. He is a loud palomino sabino. http://www.blazingcoloursfarm.com/Casper.html


Your welcome Freedom Sporthorses. I am just happy to see him with someone who is caring for him properly now. YAY!

Equusanna, yeah she is still not doing well. She seemed to be getting better after she lost the foal (her breathing was normal) but she continues to not want to eat.

Crossroads... thanks. Give my guy a pat for me :) This reminds me I need to get in touch with you. check e-mail.

We have been building a new riding complex so I have had many horses boarded out. I will be bringing back Golden Belle's best friend today (Just like my Mom) . I am hoping this may cheer Belle up a bit.

[Equusanna]

Jingles sent your way everyday for Belle. I hope you can pinpoint why she's not eating and that it can be remedied. Keep us posted.

[Faiths CremelloWB]

I HATE dealing with teaching hospitals!!!

I go in for my bone scan that was made a week ago as that was as soon as they could *fit* us in. I show up and am inside waiting with Belle for the {doctor}. While I am waiting the students are going over her general health (temp, lungs, eyes etc...) One says they want to take her blood. I say no I am not here to have her blood taken and besides it was just taken a few days ago by my vet. The student goes on to say blood can change over a few days. I TELL her that the mare has had her blood taken about once a week by my vet and and nothing has ever come up. I am not here for blood work! Then she goes on to say she is going to rectal her to see how things are feeling back there. I TELL her NO! Everything is coming out just fine... did you not read the case file? We are concerned about things not going IN!!!!!! The students go outside the stall and whisper to one another, obviously talking about me and my attitude! I wait for vet and he goes all over her again and asks me all the same questions the students did. :( By now I am frustrated as I am here for a BONE scan! After vet goes over her he suggests to do a follow up lung xray to compare to her last one when she had the pneumonia. I ask about the bone scan and ***apparently*** the chemicals for the bone scan were not ordered so they can not do one!!!!

I have already driven 1.5 hours to get the poor mare there and been with the students for 40 min so I tell him I at least want her head xrayed as I am quite sure (as is my regular vet) that it is in her jaw. He says he will do it because I WANT it but does not feel it is necessary. So she is taken from me to xrays and I am told she should be done in about 1.5hours. I go to a friends place close by for 3 hours and return. I am told they are not done with her. another hour and vet comes out. Says her lungs are still compromised about 30-40% (from the 90% previously) So I say that is good she is getting better. He says no and that he feels her problem is her lungs and we should put fluid down and bring it back up for testing. And while they are down there to scope her stomach for ulcers. I agree as we are already there and if we can at least get that out of the way we can get to MY concerns (her jaw) I ask about the jaw xrays and he says yes there is some arthritis in the main join on both sides (forget what it is called) I say then that is her problem and he says no. That was my vets suspicions, arthritis there. He leaves and goes to do the scoping and fluid tests.

He comes back and says we will have results in a few days. He says that on scoping her stomach he say 3 ulcers healing and some bot larva/eggs. I tell him that is very surprising as she has been wormed a few weeks back with Ivermectin and then we did a fecal. Still found worms so then I did a 5 day safe guard. So she should have nothing in there. He looks surprised and tell me he has to go look in his book then:confused: That is never brought up again. :confused: :confused: He then proceeds to tell me that he wants her on this antibiotic for the next few days until the test results come back. I tell him that she has not been on antibiotics for the past 2 weeks or so and I would rather wait the few days to find out what the bug (if any) is sensitive to rather than guessing for now. He says if I want to take this seriously then to put her on it. GRRR. The 4 days of meds is $198. Just dumb IMO. Why not wait for the results.

I then ask about keeping her on the cemidadine (sp?) for her yummy as she is going to stay on bute 2x a day and since she has 3 healing ulcers. He says it is not necessary and better to not have her on anything more than necessary. WTF. Then why are we on these antibiotics for 4 days???

So a 9 hour round trip and we have no reasons as to why she is not eating. I have called and had the xrays of her jaw sent to my vet and I am going to take those to another vet. The only good thing is that there was arthritis found in her jaw joint.

I spent a small fortune and did nothing I wanted to get done. For the xray of her jaw I could have gone to my favorite clinic for xrays. Been in and out in 1 hour and only cost me a couple hundred dollars. How can a bone scan be scheduled and not have the chemicals. I only go to the teaching hospital for the hi tech equipment they have ((bone scan)) not to do regular xrays.

signing off really frustrated and praying that I can get to the bottom of this mares eating problems.

Oh and while I sat in the office with my finger up my behind... for the last 30 min while they were getting the meds ready for me. They left her calling and calling in a stall with no hay and no shavings. She was really upset when I went to get her and had pooped all over the place running through it. She is such a kind, sweet, gentle mare. When I stood there with her in the stall when we first got there she just put her head in my arms and slept. Why they want to leave her there really upset for 30 min when I could have been standing there with her.

I HATE teaching hospitals!!!!

[cottagefarm]

I'm sorry you had such a crappy day and that your por mare had to go through all that nonsense.
Hopefully something will be found soon.

[Rhyadawn]

thats too bad you had such a terrible experience. I hope they get to the bottom of this.

[Equusanna]

Oh dear, that sounds like an extremely frustrating day. :( Are they still recommending the bone scan??

How is Belle today?? Hope she's getting better each day. Keep us updated. :)

[Faiths CremelloWB]

Extremely frustrating!!! She is no better, actually a bit worse.

She is on a course of antibiotics now and a side effect of these is loss of appetite and she is displaying that side effect :no:. Before when she was on bute (1g 2x a day) she would eat up her dinner and breaky. Now she is still on that and not eating maybe 1/2 her dinner by the am feed. And not eating breaky. She is scheduled to be on these for almost another week.

THEN... my vet tested her for EPM (though she shows NO signs). He says about a week after testing her that she came back positive. He says that many horses test positive and even though she show no symptoms we should treat her for that after these antibiotics. (Can not do both at the same time as they conflict with each other) So if I go ahead and do that then she can not have any other meds for like a month. And my vet wants to use some cheap form of the EPM meds saying Marque (sp?) is not with the extra cost. A TB trainer of mine disagrees and says if one is going to treat for it; they should use the marque.

SOOOO many varying opinions on this poor mare and I am pulling my hair out!!!!

Again her only symptom is lack of appetite. If give bute 2x a day 1 gram she will eat. I have tried all different levels of bute and that is the least I can give her and have her eat dinner and breaky. :confused::confused::confused::confused::(:(:(:( ANY HELP???? or recommendations?????

She goes outside everyday and stands at the round bale, nibbles hay from time to time. She is really quite depressed.

And that is about it. No idea where to go from here... the thought my vet is going with is to eliminate one thing at a time with a course of meds and I HATE doing that!!!!

Edited to add the vet at the did the xrays at the hospital says a bone scan is not necessary. And if I want to do it she will have to stay there for several days after the scan for the chemicals to leave her system. Which I know is NOT true. I know it is tops 24 hours! They did xray her jaw/head and said the arthritis in her jaw could not be causing her to not eat. It is not that bad.

Signing out feeling helpless and frustrated.

[Sundown Farm]

I bet the poor girl, is loosing a pretty good amount of weight! We all work so hard to keep our tbs fat, and there is always something it seems!

I am so sorry that you are having a rough time!!! We should find a "House" (TV show) for horses!!!

How does she do with wet food? Is she on a good electrolyte supplement? (I am sure she is, since she is already having issues).. Is she drinking as usual?

[Faiths CremelloWB]

She does drink but not a lot. When there is a day where she eats more hay she will drink more. At night 8pm-8am she drinks almost a 5 gallon buckets. The bucket is a heated one. Outside she has acess to a HUGE water tube and I do see her go over and drink a few times. But I have no clue how much she drinks out there as there are 15 other horses.

I have tried soaking pellets, hay cubes, hay extender chunks, Hi fat/Hi Fiber chunks. Even adding a bit of sweet feed to make it taste better. She does not touch any of it. I have yet to get her to eat any wet food. At one point I had 5 different buckets hung in her stall with all different feeds to see if I could get to her eat any of them. The type of feed did not make a difference. Right now she gets a hi fat hi fiber pellet and hay extender chunks in the same bucket. She seems to like to pick through the chunks for the pellets and then nibbles away at the chunks.

Maybe she thinks I am hiding meds in the wet food cause she has NO interest in any of it. It has been a couple weeks since I tried it, maybe I should try again. And someone told me of apple sauce. I could try that in it.

My vet is actually surprised she is not thinner than she is. She is not normally a tough mare to keep weight on. Thank goodness.

[MagicRoseFarm]

have you tried grating carrots? or maybe even just chopping them into smaller than bite size pieces..


5lbs of carrots a day in her system would help alot in the nutrition direction . A food processor can "julienne" them in a minute or two... and they are then fresh and sweet.. I would try a pound first and see how you do... right now 5 lbs is about $2 at our grocery

[MoSwanson]

Maybe this is in an earlier post (I have not read them all). Could it be a mild case of sand colic? We have had it a few times. We don't have any sand, but we have shale. Sometimes, an especially piggy horse that eats every last oat on the ground can display these symptoms. We have fixed it with the sand colic supplement double dosed. If they won't eat it, we mix it up as a paste and dose them with it. You could also try having your vet tube with mineral oil. What comes out looks like manure with lots of small pebbles, and then they are fine. Just a thought....

[arizonard]

Aw April, I can imagine how frustrated you are. I am sure your vet has been sitting up a few nights trying to figure this out as well. I would do anything you can at this point to get her eating something. Apple sauce, pureed carrot, molasses, corn syrup....for the short term I would just try a number of things to see if you can tempt her. is she dehydrated? Is there anything showing up in her bloodwork?

[Faiths CremelloWB]

Maybe this is in an earlier post (I have not read them all). Could it be a mild case of sand colic? We have had it a few times. We don't have any sand, but we have shale. Sometimes, an especially piggy horse that eats every last oat on the ground can display these symptoms. We have fixed it with the sand colic supplement double dosed. If they won't eat it, we mix it up as a paste and dose them with it. You could also try having your vet tube with mineral oil. What comes out looks like manure with lots of small pebbles, and then they are fine. Just a thought....

The first thing my vet thought was mild colic. She was tubed with m.oil and then that night is when she developed the severe pneumonia. She has been scoped several times and they have looked into her tummy as well. Nothing :confused: Since we are in winter and there has been snow on the ground for several months it is doubtful that any dirt/sand is in there. The ground has been snow covered for months now. Good thought though.

And Arizonard her blood has been pulled so many times now. Nothing comes up in it. :confused: :confused: She is not dehydrated. Her poops are small but not hard at all. Her skin is good too, even tested it over the eye and good. Temp normal but her breathing is slightly increased from what normal should be. Though before all this started I never kept track of what was a normal breathing rate for her.

Will try doing up some carrots for dinner and a bucket with apple sauce over her pellets and of course a bucket with no apple sauce on her feed.

[FalseImpression]

Jingling for you. I have heard these comments so many times about OVC... that is why a breeder I know always takes his horses to Ilderton...

I know vets have to learn, but sheesh, don't they learn to read files too?

Good luck! I hope she has regained some of her appetite... it is too cold right now to just nibble!

[blackstallion2]

If she doesn't have any signs of EPM (wobbly gait, unable to back, falling down, dragging legs, other neuro, etc.), it is probably positive because she was exposed to the protozoa at some point. Doesn't mean she has it. Most vets will want a spinal tap done with full neck and back vertebrae x-rays before treating. My mare who had full blown disease years ago never stopped eating (for what its worth). Your vet is grasping at straws.

If she eats with bute, give her the bute. You know your mare.

[Sundown Farm]

Sheesh! I recently had my new palomino colt on that electrolyte supplement-- Stress Dex... His water intake doubled to trippled, as did his feed consumption!

Prior to coming to me he was a very picky eater, and wasnt that interested in eating (in general)... He eats at least 6 flakes a hay throughout the night now, and will drink 2-3 buckets of water in a 12 hour period.. I do give him 2 scs of it 1x a day, which covers up the ranitidine taste from his meds. He eats his grain intently, without nibbling (though he used to) and he cleans every bit of it up!

It made a HUGE difference in my boy, his appetite and weight have improved a great deal!

Just a thought (even though she may be on Electrolytes).

[Faiths CremelloWB]

If she doesn't have any signs of EPM (wobbly gait, unable to back, falling down, dragging legs, other neuro, etc.), it is probably positive because she was exposed to the protozoa at some point. Doesn't mean she has it. Most vets will want a spinal tap done with full neck and back vertebrae x-rays before treating. My mare who had full blown disease years ago never stopped eating (for what its worth). Your vet is grasping at straws.

If she eats with bute, give her the bute. You know your mare.

My thoughts exactly! I do not want to run a months worth of treatment for EPM and put all else on hold until that course is over. Breeding season is approaching and I would love to get this resolved so she could be re-bred this season. She produces wonderful foals. I gave her '08 off and then the loss of her '09 foal. I really would love to get this mare back on track.

She was on electrolytes in the early stages but that did not change her feed intake or water really either. So we stopped it. The only thing that would make her want to eat is bute. So there had to be a pain problem somewhere and I am quite sure it is her jaw.

Just where to decide to go from here. I did speak to my vet today about the antibiotics she is on and he said if she is not eating well on them we may stop. So darn frustrating!!!

[Baroquecoco]

has anyone checked her teeth? I had a tb mare a few years back that had a tooth broken way in the back of her mouth. no signs, no smell, no swelling, no temp, but the pulp was exposed. she had stopped eating like your girl. once we pulled the tooth she quickly got back to normal. just a thought......

[Faiths CremelloWB]

Yip! as soon as she went off her feed, before the pneumonia flared up I called vet out to do teeth as she was not eating. That was my first thought as there was no temp. I thought maybe a sharpe edge :confused: Did teeth and they were not bad at all. Since then she has had her teeth checked 2 more times. Nothing wrong there that anyone can find.

Thanks though, good thought.

[sid]

I am obligated to mention not to cut corners on EPM medications for the sake of cost. Bad disease. Marqius is worth the money if you really are looking for recovery. That said, the longer you wait, the less chance of recovery...even with Marquis. Early intervention is key.

[Faiths CremelloWB]

I am obligated to mention not to cut corners on EPM medications for the sake of cost. Bad disease. Marqius is worth the money if you really are looking for recovery. That said, the longer you wait, the less chance of recovery...even with Marquis. Early intervention is key.


So those are my thoughts too. If my vet really feels it is EPM (though NO symptoms) I asked him why go the cheap route? He said he treats lots of horses with this (cheaper) medication yearly. Solely bases on a + blood test. And as I have read and another poster said any horse can test + if they have been exposed to it. Does not mean they have it. So do I want to treat for it... Not really. Why would I, because I have nothing Else to try for right now and that is my vets recommendation. If we do not treat for it, then he is always going to say we should until she gets better. AGHHHHH Where is the smiley for pulling hair out???

[Rhyadawn]

I'm praying for her. I really hope she perks up.

Have you tried a sick mix to get her to eat? something yummy to really entice her, grated carrots, apple sauce, sweetfeed and your choice of electrolytes perhaps??

[Sundown Farm]

Why do our favorite horses always seem to have the most/worst/biggest issues??? My crappy horses (*unreg/lame/regular trail horses), that are worth nothing, that could never ever be worth anything---- NEVER have any issues!! I wonder this all the time!

Murphy's law I guess!!

[Blkarab]

I'm so sorry to hear about everything with your sweet mare!!!! I'm jingling that you find the solution soon.

I don't think that I would do the EPM treatment just because. Here in Okla, lots of horses test positive for the protazoa, but are not "positive" for the disease. From everything I've read in your posts, it is just not an EPM diagnosis, and the treatment is expensive. I know catching the disease early is important, but she's not showing any EPM specific symptoms.

I don't really have any other suggestions for getting her to eat other than trying plain oats with carrots, apples and other goodies mixed in. The older mare that we have in our barn, has recently started refusing the sweet feed, which makes me wonder if its the consistency of the feed in the colder temperatures. She's 24, and even though it's Senior, I think it's just harder for her to chew when it gets cold. I know it's harder for me to scoop out of the feed bin. Just a thought...

I hope and pray that you find what is wrong with her soon. Is there another clinic close by that you could get the bone scan done? Someplace else to get a second opinion?

[ThreeDays]

Have any of your vets brought up the hypothesis that if she has EPM she might have airway problems? If she is compromised in her ability to swallow and cough she could be at risk for aspiration. Aspiration is one of the leading causes of pneumonia.

While any horse could potentially aspirate food or water that they consume - a horse who is compromised by a central nervous system disease that effects coordination would certainly be at higher risk. Add to it the fact that your mare has discomfort in her jaw from arthritis - her chewing and swallowing is even more taxed.

I'm kinda with your vets (from the teaching hospital) on this one. I think the arthritis in the jaw is the least of your worries at this time.

Fluid in the lungs is no joke. Pneumonia and infection in the lungs is the number one killer for elderly and compromised people in the hospital setting. And is true for those out in the community (minus traumatic injury).

Beginning broad spectrum antibiotics while cultures have time to grow out to specify sensitivities is common practice and done so because tons of research has proved that there is a lower mortality and morbidity rate the sooner an infection is controlled.

I would actually be concerned that your mare does not have a fever while she still has fluid in her lungs. This is suggestive that she is not mounting an immune response to the pathogens in her lungs. So why is she immunosuppressed? The bute might be responsible for part of this but cancer can cause this poor response as well. Unless the fluid in her lungs was placed by a doctor under sterile conditions - there is a pathogen present. Antibiotics are of primary importance right now.

With all of the blood work she's had - did they ever do a CBC with differential? Can you post the entire blood work results?

[Faiths CremelloWB]

Thanks a lot threedays. I suggested and asked about cancer to the vets at the hospital (from people saying it could be). The response I got was they do not think it has anything to do with cancer. I asked about a chest xray and an xray of her lungs. They said from all the test they have done there is no reason to think cancer. The vets at the hospital also say no EPM signs. They do not think EPM. My own home vet is the one who ran the EPM test and thinks EPM.

The vets at the hospital did a bronchio alveolar lavage (BAL). The BAL results revealed a 25% of eosinophils and 50% neutrophils. No bacteria were isolated in culture. So no one knows what antibiotic would work. She was put on Clarithromycin. After 4 days of being on it her appetite decreased even more, even though she was still being given the bute.

As for her blood work. I do not have any copies of the tests. They are at my vets office. Nothing has come up on them so they were no really discussed.

As a part of the endoscopic exam her airways were checked and in my paperwork here it says the pharynx and larynx revealed normal function. Is that was you are saying could be effected by the EPM? Causing aspiration/pneumonia. If that is, the vets say that part of her is working well.

I agree that her lungs are of great concern. But at this point nothing came back on culture so there is no specific antibiotic to use and the one recommended to us, makes her not want to eat at all. No one knows why any of this started or how to treat it.

I am also concerned about her being on bute so long and perhaps getting ulcers or irritate the few that were there healing. I do think there are a couple things going on at once here and wish, so badly wish we could start her on a treatment that would work. That someone would know what she has and how to get rid of it. :( Poor Golden Belle.

What is also of interest, to me, is the amount of eosinophils present. They are associated with lung parasites and inflammatory airway disease but 25% is uncommonly high. No vets have suggested this as being a big issue. But is it in black and white in my report from the hospital.

BTW... I just got the report back from the vet hospital yesterday.

Thanks to those of you who have also PM'd me.

[VirginiaBred]

Continued prayers for her from Virginia.

[can't re-]

What a debacle at the vet school! So sorry.
Is she still on the meds for ulcers?

Sending more jingles from FL.

[ThreeDays]

Neutophils tend to be first line defense WBC's. The Eosinophils as you mentioned are usually seen with parasitic infestations.

Has your vet tested for Equine Anaplasmosis?

A. phagocytophilum resembles the etiologic agents of tick-borne fever and bovine petechial fever. It is present in cytoplasmic vacuoles of neutrophils and occasionally eosinophils during the acute phase.

Clincal signs & Symptoms:

Pyrexia (fever)
Lethargy (weakness / loss of energy)
Depression
Anorexia (loss of appetite leading to weight loss)

Also seen in Acute Phases:

Lymphadenopathy (swollen / enlarged lymph nodes)
Haemoglobinuria (dark red haemoglobin-containing urine)
Leukopenia (reduced leukocytes)
Thrombocytopenia (reduced platelets)
Petechial to ecchymotic haemorrhages (spotted areas of blood accumulated within the tissue)
Icterus (Jaundice - yellowing of the skin and eyes that is caused by too much bilirubin in the blood)
Ataxia (loss of muscle coordination)
Inflammatory arthritis - maybe mono- or polyarthritis (single or multiple joint involvement)
Limb oedema (swelling of fluid within tissues)Severity of signs varies with the age of the animal and the duration of the illness. Signs may be mild (pyrexia only) or more severe (more often in older horses). Fever is generally at its highest during the first 1-3 days. Lower-grade fevers persist for 6-12 days when other signs become more severe. Any concurrent infection can cause exacerbation of symptoms.
Rarely, myocardial vasculitis can cause transient ventricular arrhythmias.
Differential diagnoses include viral encephalitis, primary liver disease, Equine Infectious Anaemia (EIA), purpura haemorrhagica, and viral arteritis.

Diagnostic Tests:

Classical microscopic diagnosis relies on identification of morulae in circulating neutrophils in Giemsa- or Wright's-stained blood smears. However, detectable numbers of morulae are only present during acute infection. Therefore organisms may be difficult to find in blood smears.
Polymerase Chain Reaction (PCR) of whole blood has become more readily available. However, results should be interpreted with caution because the techniques used in different diagnostic laboratories vary. Amplification of related organisms by nonspecific primers has been shown to result in false-positive reactions. Conversely, false-negatives may occur if extraction procedures fail to remove PCR inhibitors present in a blood sample. They may also occur if the level of circulating rickettsaemia falls below the level of assay detection, due to normal decrease in circulating organisms or temporary suppression of infection following antibiotic treatment. To maximise the utility of molecular diagnostics, blood samples should be collected early in the course of clinical disease and before the initiation of antimicrobial therapy, and should be submitted to experienced diagnostic laboratories with stringent quality control measures in place.
Indirect Fluorescent Antibody (IFA) assays to determine IgM and IgG titres are also available.

[ThreeDays]

Wanted to add that the treatment is very reasonable.


Treatment
I.V. Tetracycline @ 7mg/kg q24h for 8 days is generally affective at eliminating infection.

Penicillin, Chloramphenicol, and Streptomycin appear to have no inhibitory effect.

Horses with severe ataxia and oedema may benefit from short-term corticosteroid treatment (Dexamethasone @ 20mg/kg q24h over 2-3 days).

[ThreeDays]

One more reply (question this time)

What initally made you think she was having troubles with her jaw? Did she have any swelling or heat?