Breed a TB mare without papers to a WB stallion? **** UPDATE!!

[ilikridn]

What if you want to breed a TB mare to a warmblood stallion and you know the mare's breeding but don't have papers on her and can't get them?

Bad idea?

photo of said mare:

http://s51.photobucket.com/albums/f351/ecarolm/broodmare%20prospect/?action=view&current=Sundance3.jpg

[Indy-lou]

I vote no

[flashykatt]

Well, it kinda depends on what you're breeding for, and on the mare herself. If you're breeding for sale, it will be harder to sell a baby that can't get full papers, or will have papers from the lowest book of the registry (whichever registry you end up using). And most likely you'll get less money for the foal.

If you are planning to sell after the baby is under saddle, it won't matter as much, the horse's value will lie more in its training, personality, conformation, etc.

If you're breeding for yourself, it matters even less.

Also, if the unpapered mare is herself a proven performer, that's points in her favor. If she has gone to the FEI levels in dressage, or will pack anybody over 4 foot fences, then a baby out of her will be worth more than Miss They Sold Me Off The Track Without Papers Because I Can't Run, Go Lame All The Time, And Kick Anybody Who Enters My Stall.

(OK, that name is waaay too many letters for the Jockey Club to allow...)

[fish]

For me, papers would have absolutely nothing to do with a decision on whether or not to bred a mare. PHR registration or IHF nomination would be plenty of paper for me. What is important to me is the quality of the mare herself. What does this one have going from her apart from the fact that someone seems to be taking very good care of her? Show record? Temperament? Movement? Family connections? With nothing to go on except this one conformation photo, I can't see anything that would inspire me to breed this mare and papers and/or a brand on her butt wouldn't change that at all.

[EqTrainer]

For me, papers would have absolutely nothing to do with a decision on whether or not to bred a mare. PHR registration or IHF nomination would be plenty of paper for me. What is important to me is the quality of the mare herself. What does this one have going from her apart from the fact that someone seems to be taking very good care of her? Show record? Temperament? Movement? Family connections? With nothing to go on except this one conformation photo, I can't see anything that would inspire me to breed this mare and papers and/or a brand on her butt wouldn't change that at all.


Ditto. Even if she had papers I don't think I would want to breed her.

[Nothinsweetr]

I have to agree with Fish... based on this photo, I would not breed this mare period. She has average conformation and nothing really, aside from her chrome, makes her stand out... picture her as a plain dark bay or liver chestnut and nothing really makes her jump out and says "I am breeding quality!" She is cute, yes. She'd be a cute riding horse. But not a good broodmare IMHO.

[ilikridn]

Wow... I thought she looked like a nice mare.

I've seen video of her as well and she looked like a nice mover.

But... you guys obviously have lots more experience than I do and I'm still learning to evaluate conformation.

Could you point out her flaws for me, so I can learn from this? Thanks!

Oh, and BTW, I don't own her. But I was considering purchasing her. I'll go back to my search for the perfect mare. lol

[Oakstable]

I'll be a contrarian, I think she is a cute mare.

She is not set up well for photos. You need a third person with an umbrella or something to get the horse's attention so the neck and ears are up.

[EqTrainer]

I think she is cute, too.

But I would not want to be trying to improve a front end AND a rear end.

Specifically, her neckset and coupling.

[fish]

I think she is cute, too.

But I would not want to be trying to improve a front end AND a rear end.



And what look to be crooked front legs and kinda funny looking (definitely not tight and clean-looking) hocks.

Perky ears are not going to help this mare much on the line :(. I wouldn't recommend her for breeding or purchase unless she has considerable virtues in other departments, i.e. performance, pedigree, production.

[Jaegermonster]

I agree. the way the horse market is right now especially, nothing about this mare seems to need to be passed on. I wouldn't breed her.
Either way, most people I know who have WB stallions worth breeding to will only breed to approved mares, and any registry worth being in needs the papers.

[grayfox]

I think you can do much better. Her neck is low and short. Her shoulder is straight. She looks like she toes out in front. I also don't like her croup or her hind leg. I saw the video and thought she moved short like you would expect from a horse with a straight shoulder. You'll find something great, this one just isn't it.

[Fairview Horse Center]

This photo is taken from a poor angle to evaluate her. She is also stood up poorly, leaning over her shoulder will make it appear straight.

She has a nice head, clean throatlatch, and nice shape to her neck, which is set a bit low. I would like to see more angle to her shoulder, but with a different photo, she will have more - how much? She has a good saddle position, nice length back, and probably a decent loin connection (difficult to see due to how low the photo is taken from). She absolutely needs to be stood up on level ground to see if she is level or downhill. She has good length to her hip, and decent angles behind.

How old is she? What kind of injury?

As to the original question, if you know her pedigree, you may be able to prove it with DNA, and that would be acceptable to some registries.

[grayarabpony]

Where is the video?

[Blue Domino]

:no:What if you want to breed a TB mare to a warmblood stallion and you know the mare's breeding but don't have papers on her and can't get them?

Bad idea?

photo of said mare:

http://s51.photobucket.com/albums/f351/ecarolm/broodmare%20prospect/?action=view&current=Sundance3.jpg


Beautiful mare, lovely head, neck, poll, neck comes out from the shoulder high, built uphill, nice distinct wither.

Nice Saddle Type mare. Go for it, papers or not.

I'de ignore the naysayers on here. Many of the people who don't like this mare are the very ones who have draft horse crosses, percherons, shire's, freisians, the like. Not a one of those draft types should ever be bred on:no:, but breed a beautiful TB every time.:yes: JMHO

[grayarabpony]

I'de ignore the naysayers on here. Many of the people who don't like this mare are the very ones who have draft horse crosses, percherons, shire's, freisians, the like. Not a one of those draft types should ever be bred on:no:, but breed a beautiful TB every time.:yes: JMHO

uh, no they don't...

[Oakstable]

I agree with Darlyn's assessment.

[horsechica58]

Blue Domino-
Just because the other posters have " draft horse crosses, percherons, shire's, freisians, the like" doesn't mean that the OP should completely ignore their advice. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. JMHO :)

I personally would not breed this mare either. There are many other TB mares in this market (with papers) that, in my opinion, have better conformation.

To the OP, good luck in your search!

[SuperSTB]

If you click on the link- you'll notice there are 2 more pics of the mare.

[fish]

... most people I know who have WB stallions worth breeding to will only breed to approved mares, and any registry worth being in needs the papers.

Wierd: I know lots of people with wonderful WB stallions who don't give a hoot whether the mares they breed to are registered or not-- especially if they're fancy mares with good performance records!

[Florida Fan]

Even if she had papers, not a broodmare prospect. We have sooooo many rescue tbs that although they may make pets, they are NOT breeding prospects. Use and enjoy her---please do not bring anymore horses into the world without a real plan. And, no, I don't have any weird breed crosses---just know how it seems like a REALLY EXCITING thing to do--cute little foal--then what?? Big expense and in this economy if you change your mind---VERY difficult to sell. Too many free ones just like yours out there. Very sad.

[Tiki]

And in the first, and those other 2 pictures, there is nothing appealing about this mare - as a broodmare prospect.

[fish]

If you click on the link- you'll notice there are 2 more pics of the mare.

Those other two pictures are clearly not the same horse.

[Fairview Horse Center]

If you click on the link- you'll notice there are 2 more pics of the mare.

Different mare.

[sniplover]

Agreed. The mare in question has 4 stockings - the other only has 2 stockings and a sock.

[Christa P]

If you click on the link- you'll notice there are 2 more pics of the mare.

The other 2 pics are of a different horse - compare the leg markings, especially the front legs.

Christa

[Oakstable]

One of the very best foals/sporthorses I put on the ground is my first one ... out of a grade mare. He was registered Part-Trakehner. At the time, in the late 80s and early 90s, he was considered one of the top youngsters in CA and the market here was/is tough. I go to inspections in SoCal and he is still one of the best I have produced AND seen. He moved through the back and was a lofty mover... scoring well against imports.

The market has changed dramatically, tho

I would not chance that breeding in today's market if I were breeding to sell.

People want pedigrees, even on geldings.

I bred this guy as a keeper, but his quality was beyond my ability so he was not my personal horse except in my heart.

People in forums are so quick to judge. I wish it was so easy to judge potential success from a bad photograph.

[SuperSTB]

Those other two pictures are clearly not the same horse.

Okay so I'm an idiot :) Didn't open the other two pics just noticed them in the upper corner. Now that I look at them... duh

[ilikridn]

Sorry to confuse... the other pictures were of a different mare... just where I've been parking my pics for the potential mares I've been looking at. And those two just happened to kind of look alike, purely by coincidence.

I don't want to include the video because the link goes back to the seller's website, and I'd rather not do that. I don't own this mare. She was one I was looking at. I realize that some of you liked her, but because it seems the majority do not, I will pass on her.

I'm not just breeding for a "cute little foal." My goal was to breed a couple of foals a year or maybe only every other year. I enjoy the whole process, and I wanted to become a part of it. I realize I do not have the experience a lot of the posters on this board have, and that is why I'm here... for help and advice, and to try to learn as much as I can. I constantly work on that. I read, read, read. I ask lots of questions.

The way the economy is going and the way things are going in the horse world, with so many unwanted horses, I just may not go the breeding route after all. However, I have already paid for my breeding, so I need to find a mare. I had one, but due to health problems with the mare, she cannot be bred.

sorry so long... thanks for listening!

[grayarabpony]

If you don't have a mare, I would suggest trying to get your money back or sell the breeding.

[summerhorse]

Cute mare but yeah, not a broodmare prospect. Frankly in this economy I wouldn't be looking to breed ANYthing. There are tons out there you can buy cheap if you want one for yourself and if you don't there is no sense adding more horses in this market unless you are at the very top levels.

[MyCatRules]

:no:



I'de ignore the naysayers on here. Many of the people who don't like this mare are the very ones who have draft horse crosses, percherons, shire's, freisians, the like. Not a one of those draft types should ever be bred on:no:, but breed a beautiful TB every time.:yes: JMHO

What do you have against these breeds? Wild how prejudiced some people are on this board! Do you SERIOUSLY think all the breeds you mention should not be bred, but ANY Tbred is a great breeding horse? By the way, so far the naysayers are primarily WARMBLOOD breeders. And you do realize Warmblood breeders DO breed many Thoroughbred mares - they are probably a good source of info on what type of Thoroughbred mare does cross well?

I dont' know how you can even JUDGE this mare based on one poor picture. She isn't stood up in a way that we can really tell anything about her conformation, forget her movement, mind, etc.

OP - I think there are some good points made here - you need to decide WHAT you are breeding for. If for resale as a foal, don't do it - the market is just pathetic right now. If you are breeding to keep, or to hold on to until you can start him under saddle, and you like the mare, take the risk. If you are just worried at losing a stud fee - maybe you can find a mare to lease (Thoroughbred or other).

[ilikridn]

I am definitely also looking at leasing as an option.

I am breeding for a foal who has a good disposition, good conformation, nice movement, and jumping ability. The foal will most likely be for sale, and we would keep it for as long as that would take. If we have to get it under saddle to sell it, I am perfectly fine with that. I'm not in this for money. I'm in this because I enjoy having horses in my life. I currently have a yearling filly that I foaled and raised, and we recently purchased a weanling filly at an auction to raise, train and resell.

I don't want to sell this breeding. I want to use it. After this breeding, I may decide to buy foals that are already on the ground and work on raising them and getting them under saddle. The one I bought from the auction is truly a nice filly. We'll see how it goes with her.

Anyway, I have decided against this mare, as the majority here has said she isn't worth breeding. But since so many of you have said you'd like to see another picture... here is another one.

http://s51.photobucket.com/albums/f351/ecarolm/broodmare%20prospect/?action=view&current=Sundance6.jpg

[grayarabpony]

I am definitely also looking at leasing as an option.

I am breeding for a foal who has a good disposition, good conformation, nice movement, and jumping ability. The foal will most likely be for sale, and we would keep it for as long as that would take. If we have to get it under saddle to sell it, I am perfectly fine with that. I'm not in this for money. I'm in this because I enjoy having horses in my life. I currently have a yearling filly that I foaled and raised, and we recently purchased a weanling filly at an auction to raise, train and resell.

I don't want to sell this breeding. I want to use it. After this breeding, I may decide to buy foals that are already on the ground and work on raising them and getting them under saddle. The one I bought from the auction is truly a nice filly. We'll see how it goes with her.

Anyway, I have decided against this mare, as the majority here has said she isn't worth breeding. But since so many of you have said you'd like to see another picture... here is another one.

http://s51.photobucket.com/albums/f351/ecarolm/broodmare%20prospect/?action=view&current=Sundance6.jpg

What in the hell is the point of leasing a mare for a breeding when you're going to turn around and sell the foal, and you're on the internet asking opinions about mares????

If you don't know about what makes a mare a good breeding prospect, you shouldn't be breeding. Sheesh.

[ilikridn]

wow... thanks for the encouragement.

I guess you were born automatically knowing everything? or did you have to learn at some point?

Let me be more specific. I would consider leasing a mare IF I could have her foal out on my farm. I am finding that most people don't want to send their mare off to be bred to someone they don't know. Of course I don't blame them. I don't think I'd want to do that either.

So that is why I am still looking at purchasing a mare. My hope is that with the economy the way it is, I'll be able to find the right mare at a price I can afford. I am looking for a mare that my daughter and I can ride after breeding. (I have a 14-yr-old daughter who has shown h/j)

[Indy-lou]

I love thoroughbreds. I am always on the lookout for a really nice TB mare, but haven't found just the right one yet. I just read that Hollywood Park may close due to diminished attendence, etc. It seems that there are other racing parks closing as well in other parts of the country. There will be a surplus of TBs out there, so might be a good time to wait and see if a really super mare comes along....

[fish]

There are, indeed, a great many super TB mares available for a song (or free) in this market, but it seems to me that the OP is looking for mare with a collection of qualities that are always hard to find: conformation/athleticism good enough to justify the expense of breeding to a good WB stallion, and training/temperament/soundness good enough to make a suitable mount for a 14 year old girl and her mother. I've spent years looking for such TB mares-- and ended up buying yearling fillies I raised and trained myself of which 1/3 ended up being the whole package (the others were a bit too sensitive to make good Jr. mounts). I have loved and enjoyed all my horses, but believe it takes quite a bit of luck in addition to a great deal of searching to find the specific package the OP seems to be looking for.

[EqTrainer]

:no:


Beautiful mare, lovely head, neck, poll, neck comes out from the shoulder high, built uphill, nice distinct wither.

Nice Saddle Type mare. Go for it, papers or not.

I'de ignore the naysayers on here. Many of the people who don't like this mare are the very ones who have draft horse crosses, percherons, shire's, freisians, the like. Not a one of those draft types should ever be bred on:no:, but breed a beautiful TB every time.:yes: JMHO

Wow what a silly thing to say. I love TB's and am likely, if I ever breed horses again, to ONLY breed TB's or TB crosses.

I don't like this mares neckset, particularly her chest front. I want to see a vertical chest front w/a neck that comes out much higher. Her coupling is weak IMO. She has that dip in front of her croup (towards the saddle area) and the coupling itself looks weak. Those are the two really BIG things that would slow me down... I don't want to have to try to improve BOTH things, just one big thing would be enough IMO.

So don't think it's just because I am not a TB person. I am. I think she's cute as all get out and probably is a fun riding horse, a division hunter would be my guess without seeing her move at all. But there are sooo many nice mares out there... papers or no, I don't think I'd keep this one in the breeding gene pool.

[Piaffe~Passage]

What in the hell is the point of leasing a mare for a breeding when you're going to turn around and sell the foal, and you're on the internet asking opinions about mares????

If you don't know about what makes a mare a good breeding prospect, you shouldn't be breeding. Sheesh.

Grayarabpony: Not everyone knows everything about a breeding prospect right off the bat, it's about learning...DUH. That is what this board is for, whether some like it or not. For your information, not all can afford to buy that high priced "it" mare, and breed it to the "it" stallion. I for one, leased a nice TB mare starting in April of 08, and my baby will be due in 09. The baby for me, will be a keeper, but I may sell it in the future, SO WHAT.

[grayarabpony]

Grayarabpony: Not everyone knows everything about a breeding prospect right off the bat, it's about learning...DUH. That is what this board is for, whether some like it or not. For your information, not all can afford to buy that high priced "it" mare, and breed it to the "it" stallion. I for one, leased a nice TB mare starting in April of 08, and my baby will be due in 09. The baby for me, will be a keeper, but I may sell it in the future, SO WHAT.

Did you start breeding before you even knew what made a mare a GOOD PROSPECT?

How stupid.

It's breeders like that who give "backyard breeders" --whatever that is -- a bad name.

For your information, I bought my mare for $2500. Nor did I breed her to the "it" stallion.

Are you really as clueless and obnoxious as you seem from your post?

OP, no, you should not breed if you have to go on the internet asking opinions about mares. You do not need encouragement to breed -- you need to learn about horses first, and the way to learn is not to post pictures of mares on the internet.

You may not like the way I phrase this -- you may think I'm "mean" -- but the fact that you already seem to think this is just further proof. Quite frankly I thought you were a teenager posting until you said you had a 14-year-old daughter.

Why not go to some of these dispersal auctions and save some of the TBs and their foals that may end up going to Mexico, if you have the money to spend to raise youngsters? Many of royally bred.

[Piaffe~Passage]

OK, witless, did you start breeding before you even knew what made a mare a GOOD PROSPECT?

How stupid.

It's breeders like that who give "backyard breeders" --whatever that is -- a bad name.

For your information, I bought my mare for $2500. Nor did I breed her to the "it" stallion.

Are you really as clueless and obnoxious as you seem from your post?

OP, no, you should not breed if you have to go on the internet asking opinions about mares.

Think what you want grayarab, but not everyone knows everything right off the bat, they have to learn. Is everyone else on here that comes on to ask what stallion should there mare be bred to, do they give backyard breeders bad names also? I guess so, guess they shouldn't be breeding either. I guess first time breeders shouldn't start somewhere. Give me a break, if she wants to lease a mare, she wants to lease a mare, it's really none of your business. So what if she is asking opinions on a mare, she has to learn somewhere, and here is where she has chosen to learn. Give her a break, you started somewhere also.

[grayarabpony]

If the OP can find a good mare, then no of course there's no problem with breeding her. But finding that mare will take some time and effort. With the economy, a lot of good horses are being sold cheap, but to get the best results one need to go look at the horses in person, or have very good contacts. If the OP is willing to really put in the effort to find a good mare, then I would say, go for it.

But -- I think she does have a lot to learn. If she's doing a lot more than posting pictures on the internet, then that's great.

My advice to the OP -- and after this I will sign off this thread -- find a knowledgeable person you trust to help you find a mare. That will be the best way, unless you are very lucky.

[ilikridn]

Grayarabpony,

I do have knowledgeable people helping me as well. I posted on this forum simply for the reason that it's a good place to get a lot of knowledge in one place.

I do plan to go see the mare in person when I find one. In fact, I had one mare picked out and a plane ticket to go see her when that owner started backing out. The mare was already pregnant and she decided she wanted to keep the baby.

I have been searching for months, and I have turned many, many mares down.

If I was just going to breed any old mare, this would be much easier.

Of course you don't know me from Adam, and I can understand the frustration you feel when ignorant people are breeding unworthy horses. One person mentioned that the only people who should be breeding are those breeding for top level horses. I don't know that I agree with that. I think we also need good, quiet horses for the amateurs and juniors to ride. That's what I'm breeding for.

I do not want to breed a bad horse. I want to do this right. That is why I am using all my resources to get help and advice. I was using this forum as one of those resources.

I do have to say that your response discourages me from wanting to use this resource, as I'm sure it must discourage others as well.

[grayfox]

Jeez Grayarabpony no need to be mean. In case anyone is wondering this OP is a new breeder trying to do everything correctly. She bought her first broodmare from me. A lovely Oldenburg mare with a long show record. The mare was originally bred by Rainbow Equus, one of their first foal crops. I'm pretty sure neither Edgar nor I own subpar animals that shouldn't be bred. It's very difficult to find a TB mare of quality and like Fish said it takes time and luck. Lets try to be encouraging to new breeders we were all new breeders at one time.

[MyCatRules]

awww, Ilikridin, don't be discouraged by the naysayers on this board - many of them are pretty close minded, they think THEIR way is the only way. Take a look at some of the other threads, it is a little shocking how MEAN people can be here. There are plenty of good people, good advice, but you have to pick through the "my way or the highway" people too. I don't see anything irresponsible with doing ONE breeding when you are fully committed to taking care of the foal and putting it under saddle in a few years if needed to sell it - you sound prepared for that. I know several people who have bred one or two horses for the experience, they knew they weren't going to make money, they knew they'd be doing a lot of research and asking their friends and trainers and vets a lot of questions, but they were all very happy they did it. The one warning I think several people have given you that is valid - don't go in expecting to make money. As long as that isn't the expectation, have fun, find yourself a nice mare, and enjoy!

[NoDQhere]

Ilikridn, don't take Grayarabpony too seriously. Many of us have been the recipient of Grayarabpony's nastyness. Of course we have yet to see any evidence to prove such superiority ;).

It sounds to me like you are serious about doing your homework. There are TB mares out there that are the right type but they are few and far between. At least you have a few more months to find the right one!

[fish]

Ilikridn, don't take Grayarabpony too seriously. Many of us have been the recipient of Grayarabpony's nastiness. Of course we have yet to see any evidence to prove such superiority ;).



Ditto this-- with emphasis!

I think it's worth remembering, too, that none of us have learned anything without having the courage to get out there not only to ask questions, but also experiment enough to have made plenty of mistakes to learn from!

[MagicRoseFarm]

Ilikridn, don't take Grayarabpony too seriously. Many of us have been the recipient of Grayarabpony's nastyness. Of course we have yet to see any evidence to prove such superiority ;).

Ditto,

Very politely put NoDQ,

[In The Gate]

I'd take a look on the broodmare lease thread -- there have been some lovely looking mares posted over there for free lease for the year. If I had the time/money I'd sure be tempted!

[Fairview Horse Center]

This board can be a good resourse, just remember that a photo is not going to really evaluate a mare - good or bad. You could turn down a wonderful mare, or get raves about a poor one. Use the comments as places/issues to check out when you go see the mare. You can also request a few more photos if there are questionable areas to see if something is really a problem, or just the way it appeared on a photo, before taking a trip. Also, try to check out the parents and grandparents to see if that issue is present in them.

Then know that the most important part is how they move and jump. Good Luck.

[TaliaCristianna]

If you don't know about what makes a mare a good breeding prospect, you shouldn't be breeding. Sheesh.

I write video scripts for an insurance company.

I believe my spelling skills are up to par. I also believe I am quite good at keeping my scripts grammatically correct.

HOWEVER I still have each and every script I write reviewed by at least one of my peers. Not because I question my own ability, but because it never hurts to have a second or third pair of eyes go over what I've written. Often they will catch something that I missed.

There is absolutely positively NOTHING wrong with asking for outside opinions on a horse. It is a wise thing to do. It is not a sign of ineptness.

I agree, it is impossible to get a good idea of this mare's conformation based off of the photo. I would go see her in person before making a judgment call.

With that being said, I would only be interested in her if she ended up being phenomenal when viewed in person. I second, third, and fourth the notion that you can get a really nice, fully-papered mare for next to nothing right now.

[Jaegermonster]

Wierd: I know lots of people with wonderful WB stallions who don't give a hoot whether the mares they breed to are registered or not-- especially if they're fancy mares with good performance records!

People can breed their stallions to whatever they like.
But for the record the qualifications for unregistered/approved mares that you stated don't seem to apply to the mare in this discussion.

[stolensilver]

I've just been browsing through some CANTER listings and came across this one:

1673-0408 Mare, 10 years old, 16.3. Gorgeous grey! Strawberry Sundaze is that sought after dressage prospect! She was too big for the small track in Michigan and was therefore retired. She's got a big, long neck and is a nice mover. Show quality, likes to work, professional, and all business! See this beauty at the farm in Michigan. $1500 to a good home. Contact Pat Doran at 517-546-4448.
http://www.canterusa.org/michigan/sale/img_Trainer/StrawberrySundaze.jpg

The photo is poor but that mare might just be a sports horse broodmare prospect IMHO. Perhaps worth a look if she isn't thousands of miles from you?

[Jaegermonster]

[QUOTE=Blue Domino;3710821

I'de ignore the naysayers on here. Many of the people who don't like this mare are the very ones who have draft horse crosses, percherons, shire's, freisians, the like. Not a one of those draft types should ever be bred on:no:, but breed a beautiful TB every time.:yes: JMHO[/QUOTE]

Um. I didn't care for the mare, and I have an OTTB mare (buckpasser granddaughter) that I have owned for 15 years, and bred her to a TB (Reputed Testamony). I am not a warmblood/draft horse etc person AT ALL. And I didn't like the mare in the OP.
Although a new member has joined a hunt I am with and she has a lovely 3/4 bred TB/draft cross. But although for him I could make an exception, generally I don't like them for myself.

[ilikridn]

Thanks, Jill, for backing me up... I appreciate your support. And thanks to everyone else for the words of encouragement.

Oh, and I have been perusing the Free Breeding Lease Mares thread on this forum. It seems that most of the mares that sound right for me are for on farm leases only, or they want the mare to stay in the same geographical area. But I do keep checking the thread for new mares.

[STF]

You can get COP and I think AWS can get papers on.
We bred several horses last year without JC papers on the agreement that they would make sure and get USEF # and such so the offspring could be tracked. That is more important to me. Both non papered mares are taking their offspring AWS and getting the life ID's with USEF, etc.
I cant judge thsi mare based on a pic. I dont think its fair to judge any horse based on a photo. It can hide a lot or make something look way better than it is. ;)

[ThirdCharm]

:no:


Beautiful mare, lovely head, neck, poll, neck comes out from the shoulder high, built uphill, nice distinct wither.


Umm, you ARE looking at the original pic posted of the chestnut with four white socks, the puffy-hocked, short-necked, toed-out one with the slight dip in front of the withers? There is a horse in the album with a high neckset and uphill build, but it is a chestnut with ONE white sock, not the same horse.

Jennifer

[STF]

Oh and BTW, you can use frozen on ANY mare, with or without papers and the brokers usually dont question who the mare is for! :lol:
Im not saying breed ANY ol' mare, not at all, but you have to use your best judgement on what is the best cross for the cross you want to produce.

[fish]

Actually I do have more than a clue what others have and breed (referring to the statement re editing in your post). And if that's what people want to do, fine.
People can breed their stallions to whatever they like.
But for the record the qualifications for unregistered/approved mares that you stated don't seem to apply to the mare in this discussion.

But the statement re: my editing, explicitly referred not to you, Jmonster, but Blue Domino :(. I.e., like you,and contrary to BD's assertion, I've never bred drafts of any kind-- have actually never bred anything except TB mares.

[ilikridn]

The third photo was one I found on a COTH members website that I thought was really lovely. She is not for sale... I just copied the photo so I could use it as a comparison to other mares I'm looking at. Her conformation is what I would be striving for.

I have removed that photo from my photobucket, as it obviously is not fair to that COTH member to have people commenting on her mare without her knowledge. (even though the comments couldn't help but be good ones, the mare is a Champion Premium Mare and is a really, really nice mare)

The two photos that are left are of the same mare... the original mare I was posting about.

Hope that clears things up.

[stolensilver]

Don't know if you want suggestions of possible other mares but here is another one! :lol:

Root For Lady Jane: 7 year old 16.2hh dark bay mare. 100% sound, should vet, race winner, 10++ mover. Lady had a foal in 06 just because the owners wanted to breed her. She had come off the track sound. She was put back in race training in June of this year, but has not looked like her old winning self, not much interest in being a race horse again. She is a lovely mover and will do well in the show ring. On the farm in Union Bridge, MD. Asking $2500

http://www.canterusa.org/midatlantic/salephotos/RootForLadyJane1.jpg

Another smart move could be to put out an advert looking for an older teenaged broodmare. That way you may find a superstar broodmare at a reasonable price. Obviously make sure any mare you buy is given a breeding fitness check before you buy her.

[findeight]

Back top OPs original question and quest to learn.

Somebody else mentioned that you have to train yourself to picture them all as plain bays to really evaluate fairly.

The one you asked about originally is a beautiful color but has several flaws evident in the picture I do not think are the fault of a bad angle, but you see that color and she does look like a pretty thing. Might make a nice show mare but, until she can prove herself performance wise, she shows little that says she should be bred.

Particularly put off by the length cannon in comparision to the forearm, like to see that cannon shorter for more durability...and she may or may not be downhill but looks like it. Does look like she toes out and she does not appear to be clean and tight around the knee and hock.

Try to find a mare that either has a performance record or has had foals that have earned one, that is the best guide of all.

For the record, I have always had TBs. The mare I have now IS correct enough and has a good enough performance record to breed but I shudder at the thought of financially carrying a foal for years with little to no market for it. And she is a byatch, so was her mom.

One other thing, unless you trace a legible tatoo, you really don't know the pedigree because who knows who she is, only who the seller says she is.

[stolensilver]

Don't know about you but I'm a visual learner. A mare that is, IMO, an outstanding broodmare is this one:

http://www.photobox.co.uk/my/photo?album_id=74937351&photo_id=1520058128

She's not a TB, she's a Trakehner. She may help you in your search for a mare to carry the foal you want. However she is dressage bred with dressage quarters. If she was more jumping orientated her longish pelvis (point of hip to point of buttock) and shorter femur (advantageous for dressage because they allow sitting without much closing of angles and so save on muscle fatigue) would be similar in length or even with the femur being longer than the ischium. Having said that many bloodlines are dual purpose and having "dressage quarters" does not prevent a horse from jumping or vice versa.

[NoDQhere]

Don't know about you but I'm a visual learner. A mare that is, IMO, an outstanding broodmare is this one:

http://www.photobox.co.uk/my/photo?album_id=74937351&photo_id=1520058128

She's not a TB, she's a Trakehner. She may help you in your search for a mare to carry the foal you want. However she is dressage bred with dressage quarters. If she was more jumping orientated her longish pelvis (point of hip to point of buttock) and shorter femur (advantageous for dressage because they allow sitting without much closing of angles and so save on muscle fatigue) would be similar in length or even with the femur being longer than the ischium. Having said that many bloodlines are dual purpose and having "dressage quarters" does not prevent a horse from jumping or vice versa.

Oh my, what a beautiful mare. Who is she? What are her bloodlines? She is reeeeeeallllly exceptional.

[stolensilver]

Thankyou Patty for the compliments about her. I just wish she was mine. She is St Pr u Pr St Kolumbina. Champion of her performance test and sold via the elite trakehner sales a couple of years ago. She is by King Arthur and out of an Arogno mare. I've got a picture of her going under saddle too:

http://www.photobox.co.uk/my/photo?album_id=74937351&photo_id=1520057986

And this is her first foal by Le Rouge which is why I say she's an outstanding broodmare. I am lucky enough to own this filly. She's now rising 3 and a sweetheart.

http://www.photobox.co.uk/my/photo?album_id=74937351&photo_id=1520058270

http://www.photobox.co.uk/my/photo?album_id=74937351&photo_id=1520056848

[ilikridn]

Nice mare, Stolensilver. She's grown up into quite a lady!

Thanks for all of the photos of mares. I don't care for the grey one, as she looks really butt high. I thought at first maybe she was still growing but then saw she was 10!

I like the black one, but does it look like she has a roach back? And her croup seems short. Maybe it's the photo. Some of the detail is hard to see because she's so dark. It looks like she has nice legs and a nice neckset, although her neck looks a little short. Looks like she has a nice front end and a pretty head. I think Gatsby could definitely improve on her.

Okay, how did I do???

[fish]

Nice mare, Stolensilver. She's grown up into quite a lady!

Thanks for all of the photos of mares. I don't care for the grey one, as she looks really butt high. I thought at first maybe she was still growing but then saw she was 10!

I like the black one, but does it look like she has a roach back? And her croup seems short. Maybe it's the photo. Some of the detail is hard to see because she's so dark. It looks like she has nice legs and a nice neckset, although her neck looks a little short. Looks like she has a nice front end and a pretty head. I think Gatsby could definitely improve on her.

Okay, how did I do???

I think you're right on re: the grey mare, and might like the dark one better than you. I think it would help (esp. her back) to see her on level ground instead of on an incline with her front feet cocked back.

[ilikridn]

Actually I like the dark one quite a bit. I'm just trying to be objective and pick out any potential conformation flaws.

[ilikridn]

I would like to call on her, but I remember reading on here somewhere, or maybe it was on the CANTER site, not to call about a horse unless you are really ready to buy. It said the trainers are very busy and do not have time to field a lot of calls about horses.

Anyone here bought a horse from a trainer on CANTER? How much additional information were you able to get about the horse before buying?

[stolensilver]

Thankyou for the compliment on the youngster. I hope she fulfils her promise but who can tell?

Regarding the TB mares I don't think the grey mare is butt high, I think her butt is closer to the camera giving an optical illusion. It is a terrible photo! :lol: Things I like about her are her size, her bone (rare as hens teeth in TBs) and I think she has fantastic bone structure in her quarters. Screams "jumper" to me. I also think her neck is very good, well set on and very well muscled which in turn tells you that she moves correctly. And her shoulder is OK. Of the 2 I prefer the grey but that is assuming that she isn't butt high, it is just a bad photo.

The dark mare is, I think, nicer than most flat race bred TBs. I like her front very much. Can't see a roach back although slight roaching isn't a bad thing, it is a very strong conformation. It's difficult to be sure exactly where the back ends and the fence starts but the line of the back seems fine to me. Where this one is not as strong is in the conformation of her hindquarters but they are still better than many, I think. Her hocks look well let down with a good second thigh but she is a bit light of bone, more typical TB. Her pasterns are good for a TB, not too long and not too sloping and overall she appears harmonious.

Hopefully I've helped a little. Good luck in your search. Best advice I can give you is buy the best breeding mare you can afford. An alternative would be to approach a stud farm that has a broodmare you really admire and ask if they could put her in foal to a stallion of your choice with the guarantee that you will buy the foal.

[fish]

I very much agree with what stolensilver has to say about the 2 CANTER mares-- esp. if the butt problem with the grey does turn out to be the result of foreshortening and not true lack of balanced proportions. What strikes me most about both CANTER mares in contrast to the chestnut is their obvious strengths-- as EqTrainer put it, with the chestnut, you'd have to worry about correcting both ends (and the legs, too) while it was hard to find in the photo any outstanding contribution the mare could make aside from her bling. In marked contrast, both the dark mare and the grey bring many outstanding attributes to the table without seeming to have any really serious flaws: e.g., while the dark mare's hindquarters are not outstanding, they are "still better than many," and the coupling (unlike the chestnut mare's) looks very strong. We all have our own leanings/preferences, and given a choice between a great hindquarter that's not well connected to the back and an average one that's beautifully tied in, I'll take the average one any day. The way I figure it, all that power behind isn't going to do much good if the loin isn't strong enough to carry it across to the rest of the horse.

I also see a great deal to like about the grey mare: As ss says: size, bone, neck, powerful HQ's...-- if actually level or uphill, she's lovely-- I especially like her face: the width between those eyes... yum.

As you suggest, however, the problem with OTTB's is getting to see and try them under circumstances that can enable you to feel confident about your purchase-- especially if you're considering the horse as a potential mount (for a child no less) in addition to a broodmare.

I think stolensilver's idea of going for a custom foal is a good one. Problem is that I have the feeling you're trying to cover a few bases with this horse: you want a mare well enough endowed by nature to use that stallion season on and also well trained and mannerly enough for you and your daughter to ride, right? That could be hard to find in a hurry.

Another consideration: do I remember reading that you already have the stallion season? If so, I would imagine your choice of stallion could have a lot to say about what kind of mare you need. Who's your guy? Does the SO have any suggestions? E.g., some stallions will really help a mare's topline while others need mares who are very good in that area.

[grayarabpony]

Ditto,

Very politely put NoDQ,

NoDQ is never polite, give me a break. Neither are many of the rest of you, and if you think you are, you're delusional. :lol: I've watched many of you catfight over the years.

This isn't about getting a 2nd or 3rd opinion. It's about putting up pictures of a horse with 4 crooked legs and saying, I thought she moved nice, (even though she doesn't), should I breed her?

The harping on being an active breeder is getting a little old. I sure as heck haven't seen any superiority from the catcallers. I also think it's actually funny to be called close-minded and mean from people who are well -- close-minded and mean. :lol:

So many of you think it's OK for YOU to be vicious, but if someone says anything back --- OMG! how horrible! Well, get over it.

[Regina DiNovi]

grayarabpony-

I am confused. If you thought this person that was posting a question was a child, why is it that you felt compelled to be <how should I say this> viscious???
I am someone who appreciates honesty, however, I think there are better ways to approach things.
Perhaps you were never taught any better. Or maybe someone was mean to you, just as you have been to this person just doing her homework.
Just goes to show that money can't buy you class.
I seriously hope this is not a child, because you would have really broke this child's heart. And then call yourself nice.

I pray you find your happiness.

Gina

[EqTrainer]

I like the dark mares coupling, it is very strong. I don't think it is roached.

I agree w/ fish - better to have an average rear end and a fabulous coupling than the other way around. If you can't get to it, it's useless.

[NoDQhere]

Thankyou Patty for the compliments about her. I just wish she was mine. She is St Pr u Pr St Kolumbina. Champion of her performance test and sold via the elite trakehner sales a couple of years ago. She is by King Arthur and out of an Arogno mare. I've got a picture of her going under saddle too:

http://www.photobox.co.uk/my/photo?album_id=74937351&photo_id=1520057986

And this is her first foal by Le Rouge which is why I say she's an outstanding broodmare. I am lucky enough to own this filly. She's now rising 3 and a sweetheart.

http://www.photobox.co.uk/my/photo?album_id=74937351&photo_id=1520058270

http://www.photobox.co.uk/my/photo?album_id=74937351&photo_id=1520056848

All I can say is wow!

[Aven]

I have bred a non papered tb. But she was exceptional, in conformation and movement. Her movement at the trot would stand out even in a class full of very nice warmbloods.

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd125/Grey-Run/riven-pose.jpg

I lost this mare to torsion 2 days after foaling this year. I totally unintentionally picked up another unregistered tb mare at auction a couple of months ago. If she turns out nicely I might breed her.

But I would not breed this mare.


:no:


Beautiful mare, lovely head, neck, poll, neck comes out from the shoulder high, built uphill, nice distinct wither.

Nice Saddle Type mare. Go for it, papers or not.

I'de ignore the naysayers on here. Many of the people who don't like this mare are the very ones who have draft horse crosses, percherons, shire's, freisians, the like. Not a one of those draft types should ever be bred on:no:, but breed a beautiful TB every time.:yes: JMHO

I do have one big 1/4 draft gelding I picked up as my field hunter. I don't breed draft crosses though. I am not sure as to what I breed too should be of concern. Perhaps what I breed FOR is pertinent.

[Baroque-n-Dreams]

Okay - I have to admit curiosity as to the stallion that the OP has the breeding. Mind letting us in on that information?

[grayarabpony]

grayarabpony-

I am confused. If you thought this person that was posting a question was a child, why is it that you felt compelled to be <how should I say this> viscious???
I am someone who appreciates honesty, however, I think there are better ways to approach things.
Perhaps you were never taught any better. Or maybe someone was mean to you, just as you have been to this person just doing her homework.
Just goes to show that money can't buy you class.
I seriously hope this is not a child, because you would have really broke this child's heart. And then call yourself nice.

I pray you find your happiness.

Gina

I pray you learn how to read better.

Obviously I did not think the OP was a teenager, since she wrote that she has one.

Are you for real? -- breaking a child's heart by telling them they need to learn about something important before doing it? -- what kind of drivel is that? It's what parents SHOULD be teaching their children.

You're showing your own lack of class with your post, thanks for that.

[Dazednconfused]

Grayarabpony: Not everyone knows everything about a breeding prospect right off the bat, it's about learning...DUH. That is what this board is for, whether some like it or not. For your information, not all can afford to buy that high priced "it" mare, and breed it to the "it" stallion. I for one, leased a nice TB mare starting in April of 08, and my baby will be due in 09. The baby for me, will be a keeper, but I may sell it in the future, SO WHAT.

Maybe, if you can't breed an it mare to an it stallion, you shouldn't be breeding period. Why purposely breed for a lower standard? It doesn't do anyone any favors. :no:

And with the economy as it is, VERY exceptional horses can be found for a much more reasonable price than they used to be. Seeing as how it takes the same amount of money to feed a good horse as a bad one, you'd be better served by waiting for a very high quality mare...JMO.

[grayarabpony]

But she's learning along the way!

[Regina DiNovi]

Being brutally honest is NOT always the best way to teach children or adults.

How about keeping it simple. For example, saying something along the lines of:
1- keep your options open & politely say this mare may not be the best choice for breeding.
2- send a photo of a mare with which you would think would make a good brood mare. Perhaps one of YOUR spectacular mares.
etc...

I hope my 4 yr. child never has to hear from you. I am afraid you would tell him all his flaws & find nothing positive to say.

[Indy-lou]

I don't understand the need for attacking and mean-spirited remarks folks. Well, I do understand that people will "act out" towards others in the same way that they were treated as children by abusive adults (unless they get professional help and break the cycle of abuse) , but this isn't a mental health site, it's supposed to be a forum where ideas and information are exchanged about the welfare of horses, equestrian sport and furthering knowledge in these areas. Let's try to keep it civil and informative, OK? It's not a competitive sport playground for one-ups-manship in any case. Those kind of posts just turn everybody off.

[ilikridn]

The breeding is to Gatsby.

[vineyridge]

I have a suggestion. If you are anywhere near Decatur, Texas, take a road trip to Dormello II Stud (http://www.dormellostud.com) and see if there is anything there for sale that you might want. The owner has been collecting outstanding old line TB bloodlines for years and is downsizing his herd, and his mares are inexpensive and older. You can see the mares in person, see their foals, and see some examples of wonderful European line TBs who are not bred to the current fads.

If you are interested in OTTB's you should look at LOPE, which is in Texas and does the same thing as CANTER in other states. http://www.lopetx.org

[Jaegermonster]

But the statement re: my editing, explicitly referred not to you, Jmonster, but Blue Domino :(. I.e., like you,and contrary to BD's assertion, I've never bred drafts of any kind-- have actually never bred anything except TB mares.

misread your other post and have edited mine
:)

[ilikridn]

vineyridge, I have actually checked out that site before but haven't been down to Dormello Stud. I read all about him and how he got started... very interesting. Thanks... I'll check out the lope site as well. I didn't know about that one.

[grayarabpony]

Being brutally honest is NOT always the best way to teach children or adults.

How about keeping it simple. For example, saying something along the lines of:
1- keep your options open & politely say this mare may not be the best choice for breeding.
2- send a photo of a mare with which you would think would make a good brood mare. Perhaps one of YOUR spectacular mares.
etc...

I hope my 4 yr. child never has to hear from you. I am afraid you would tell him all his flaws & find nothing positive to say.

Why would I want to meet your 4 yr old? I don't want to meet you.

If you're saying that my posts are "attacking", how would you then describe many of the posts on this site? Homocidal? :yes: No, this is not a mental health site, more of an insane asylum!

:lol::lol::lol:

It's good for laughs though. A lot of holier-than-thou people here.

[JGHIRETIRE]

OP - what about pedigree?? Was there something in that mare's pedigree that you liked???
Just a question.

[ilikridn]

I have moved on from this mare, but I will go ahead and post her pedigree.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/carlinia+kim

I at one time had found a website that listed TB stallions that make good Sporthorse stallions, but I haven't been able to find it again. If someone knows of it and can provide that link, I would appreciate it.

Since I couldn't relocate the TB stallion list, I went through the Top Hunter stallion list and looked at all the TBs. Then, I went onto some of the websites, such as Equine.com and Dreamhorse.com and did searches for mares with those stallions in their pedigrees to see what came up.

I know I haven't convinced GrayArabPony, but I have been doing my homework.

[JGHIRETIRE]

LOL - just can't please everyone!!

[spacely]

I at one time had found a website that listed TB stallions that make good Sporthorse stallions, but I haven't been able to find it again. If someone knows of it and can provide that link, I would appreciate it.

http://www.meadowviewfarm.com/TBSHbloodlines.htm

[selah]

I saw this mare in another thread who is up for adoption. JC name: Saribel Cruz...they call her flirt. Here is a vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aafQnQwGb9Y

She is a Seattle Slew Granddaughter. I personally love the Slew-breds. I have one who was champion mare of her RPSI inspection, and crossed fabulously with an old-line Holsteiner.
Warmblood-approved slew-line stallions include Noble Houston, and Gatsby.

Good luck with your adventure!:yes:

[Donella]

I'de ignore the naysayers on here. Many of the people who don't like this mare are the very ones who have draft horse crosses, percherons, shire's, freisians, the like. Not a one of those draft types should ever be bred on, but breed a beautiful TB every time

EXCUSE ME?! I own two beautiful Friesian mares who are both outstanding examples of their breed. Just because YOU don't like them does not mean that they should not be bred. Every breed has it's purpose and if the said mare is a very good example of the breed and the market is there, then those are the types that should be bred.
How offensive:mad:

Wether this horse is beautiful or not really isn't the point. She isn't outstanding (though she is a pretty type) and the market for half tb non registered horses is where???

[fish]

The breeding is to Gatsby.

Great-- now I think that's a good place to start: find out as much as you can about him and what he produces when crossed with various mares. That will both give you another bit of good practice in analyzing prospects and tell you a lot about the attributes you'll want to see in the mare you get for him.

Interesting coincidence: someone posted a link to a Seattle Slew bred mare, and someone else said Gatsby has Slew behind him. Both like this breeding in a sport horse, so maybe linebreeding to Slew might be part of what you want to do.

There's a lot to think about, but it should be fun. I just wish you weren't in a hurry-- do you have any idea how long your contract for Gatsby might be extended to give you time to find the best possible mare?

P.S. Have you looked at this thread: http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=3713675#post3713675 ? IMO, it's your situation in reverse. I hope you enjoy the discussion and find it beneficial.

[stolensilver]

Maybe, if you can't breed an it mare to an it stallion, you shouldn't be breeding period. Why purposely breed for a lower standard? It doesn't do anyone any favors. :no:

There are all sorts of different approaches to breeding but this is one I would not recommend. Why? Well because of spending many hours and many miles looking for a young dressage prospect earlier this year. I saw so many horses who were had mouthwatering pedigrees but who were average to ordinary in the flesh. Let's be honest. If breeding was just putting the "it" mare to the "it" stallion everyone would be producing superstars!

The other reason I would counsel against this approach is that so many top stallions are overlooked. Would you like examples? How about Doruto? Overlooked until he was an old man and the worth of his offspring were proven beyond doubt. His initial foal reports were awful. Or Van Deyk? He has sired the 6yo Bundeschampion twice and both those horses are competing at FEI level yet was getting fewer than 10 mares a year. Or Silvermoon. Who had heard of him or used him before Matine? Now GP kids by Silvermoon are popping up all over the place and watching him move, even as an old horse, it's obvious why! Or Salieri. Who had heard of Salieri? Yet he produced two Olympic horses. The best british bred GP horse this year is by a coloured sports horse graded into a small coloured studbook that has never really been marketed yet he has sired advanced event horses and Grand prix dressage horses.

Now look at Sandro Hit. What has he actually produced competition wise? He's 15. Where are his World cup offspring? Where are his Grand Prix offspring?

IMHO a lot of people buy into the sizzle when it comes to stallions. Marketing is very powerful but going with a superbly marketed sire, an "it" stallion may well lead you to be choosing a stallion who is less likely to produce what you want in your foal, not more.

Final thought on this are the words of the great Ulf Moller no less.
"I love to look at foals - it's the cheapest way to buy talent and when you're lucky it pays off. I'm not influenced by breeding; I just like a good horse."

Wise man Ulf Moller!

[stolensilver]

Just been having fun looking through the LOPE horses and this one might be quite nice. The photo flatters her quarters as they are turned towards the camera but worth a look?

Ruhla: 8 year old @16.1H dark bay (looks black) mare. Beautiful mare! Has had a lovely foal and is a wonderful mother. Completely sound, no injuries. Would be great as a broodmare or also could be a riding horse (trails, barrels, hunter, etc). $3000. Located near Sam Houston. Contact Laurie at 936-372-9416.

http://www.lopetx.org/horses/images/ruhla.jpg

I do like this one. Uphill build, lovely depth and therefore power through her loin. Legs aren't outstanding but there's nothing particularly wrong with them either. Might be worth a look. What I'd be looking for in the flesh is whether she has enough freedom through her shoulder. Her shoulder angle might be a little closed and her humerus is on the short side. This could add up to mean she cannot elevate her forearm. If she cannot do this she is unlikely to throw a good jumper as they need to be able to snap up their front legs to clear the fence.

Frebe: 5 year old @16H chestnut mare. Beautifully muscled girl! She's only raced two times. Owner is cutting back before racing in Colorado this summer. Nice mover and a great pedigree. Quick and light on her feet. Sound, no injuries. Located near Sam Houston (in Waller). NEW PRICE: $2500. Contact Laurie at 936-372-9416

http://www.lopetx.org/horses/images/frebe1.jpg

This one might be interesting too. Better shoulder than Frebe, not as good a connection through the loin but enough. She looks a powerful mare and has her croup sited over her hip joint which usually means they can transfer the power they generate forwards. I also like that she's sound without injuries. For sportshorse breeding I'm always wary of a horse that has broken down very young. It may not be their fault but it could indicate poor quality connective tissues.

Proper Music: 9 year old @15.3H bay mare. Maiden mare but would make an excellent addition to breeding stock. Her sire is Proper Reality, winner of 1.7 million on the track. Her broodmare sire is Stop the Music. She is a good size and would make a great show horse or riding horse also. She has a classic look and a very small head. Good gait and could possibly be a young experienced riders horse. Completely sound horse with no injuries. This horse is definitely a people person horse. Loves attention and peppermints. Must sell due to farm closure. Asking $1300. Located near Lone Star (in Boyd). Please contact Dan Uglow 940-433-9436.

http://www.lopetx.org/horses/images/proper-music1.jpg

[grayarabpony]

ilikrid, if you can find a good TB mare then by all means go for it. I have said that already. viney produced excellent information to look for nice mares. In fact, if you can find a TB mare that has some of the older, less common bloodlines, with good conformation, temperment, and athleticism, then I will be the first to applaud you for your efforts. My point is that it can be difficult, and take time, to find the right sort of mare to get the foal that you want. The mare is so important when breeding, I can't stress that enough.

When you go look at the OTTBs, of course they do tend to look awful. You'll want to see them move. Look at their feet. They will probably look awful too, but avoid teacup feet, and matchstick legs. No, you can't do a bone density test by eye, but a good amount of bone is better than less.

Next to athleticism, the thing I look for is temperment and engagement. Does the horse look at you, and how does she respond? Temperment is a very close second to the body, because a horse that will try for its rider is worth its weight in gold.

Anyway, good luck in your search. I hope you find a mare that is right for you.

[stolensilver]

Something has just struck me about the mares that have jumped out as possible broodmares for a sports horse. None of them are injured or lame. The description had no influence on the choice (apart from sex and size) so for all of them to be injury free maybe says something for their conformation? Even if, perhaps, it is just that sportshorse shaped TBs don't run very fast. :lol:

[stolensilver]

Here is an interesting piece by Dr Deb Bennett comparing desireable characteristics of race horses and riding horses. I think it explains why most flat race bred TBs (National Hunt bred TBs are a different type altogether) do not translate well into a sports horse breeding programme.

"Riding Horses: The job of the riding horse is to carry weight over a distance of ground. The riding horse must go from "point A" to "point B" over and over again over a long span of years, while remaining sound.

Loins: broad from side to side, deep from loin to groin, short from hips to ribs. The ideal is to have a smooth, strong coupling. This (and not the height of the horse) is the most significant determinant of its ability to carry weight

Overall body balance: level to slightly uphill.

Neck: shaped to arch readily.

Head: must be symmetrical, not too bent or too short or fine in the muzzle.

Pelvis: 18 to 22 degrees of slope is ideal. Very shallow or very steep pelvic angles are problematic. Moderate length is sufficient.

Limbs and feet: Ideal is 8" of "bone" per 1,000 lbs. weight. The broadest possible hock, and correctly aligned hindlimbs, are a real plus.

Race Horses: The job of the flat racer is to go as fast as possible over a relatively short distance. Flat racers go from "point A" to "point B" in the shortest possible time, and in many cases need do this only one or a few times. Their careers terminate when their soundness sufficiently disintegrates.

Loins: narrow from side to side; moderately deep from loin to groin; long from ribs to pelvis. The ideal is for a smooth topline through this region, but in many cases it is not. The emphasis here is on flexibility, for coiling/uncoiling the loins is the most significant determinant of stride length and hence the ability to cover ground.

Overall body balance: downhill to the front. The shorter the distance over which the animal is to be raced, the more downhill the build must be. Sprinters are built more downhill than milers.

Neck: Thin and straight.

Head: Symmetry is good but its lack can to some extent be compensated for; head must not be too large.

Pelvis: 18 to 22 degrees of slope is ideal. Shallower angles can, however, be tolerated and may add to speed. Steep pelvic angles are undesirable. The greatest possible pelvic length is desirable.

Limbs and Feet: 7" of "bone" per 1,000 lbs. of weight is sufficient. Amounts over 8" are undesirable. Bones composing the forelimbs must have absolutely correct alignment."

[grayarabpony]

That is true! Idle Dice was a total wash-up as a racehorse.

I knew someone who got a nice horse for next to nothing because when he got upset, he would just freeze. I can just see him, standing in the starting gate while all of the other horses took off down the lane.

He was purchased as a jumping prospect but I don't think he was going to pan out as a jumper. Whenever he went through a grid, poles flew everywhere. :lol:

However, that horse could float. Like a dream. Very nice gaits. Sweet horse too.

[Hawkridge]

Maybe, if you can't breed an it mare to an it stallion, you shouldn't be breeding period. Why purposely breed for a lower standard? It doesn't do anyone any favors. :no:

And with the economy as it is, VERY exceptional horses can be found for a much more reasonable price than they used to be. Seeing as how it takes the same amount of money to feed a good horse as a bad one, you'd be better served by waiting for a very high quality mare...JMO.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. No-one is forcing you to breed....

[fish]

Something has just struck me about the mares that have jumped out as possible broodmares for a sports horse. None of them are injured or lame. The description had no influence on the choice (apart from sex and size) so for all of them to be injury free maybe says something for their conformation? Even if, perhaps, it is just that sportshorse shaped TBs don't run very fast. :lol:

Or maybe it's more a matter of mentality than "shape"-- i.e., they have enough sense of self-preservation not to run fast enough to hurt themselves???

Must say, though, that I've seen a quite a few well-bred and/or well-conformed OTTB geldings go from fair success on the track to success in the show ring.

Then, too-- lameness is not something most sellers are eager to mention in their ads either :(

[Katy9532]

ilikridn:

I did this last year with my mare that you looked at. She was older and had no papers. I had a photo copy of her papers and paid for a tattoo search on her. I was unable to convince the JC to give me a re-issuance of papers. They apparently are real sticklers on that!

I got that mare approved by the AHHA this year. What I had to do was petition the board of approval judges. I spent a lot of time on the phone with the AHHA. I sent them a packet of everything I had on her. The photo copy of the JC papers, the tattoo search, a copy of her show record from the USEF, pictures of her now, and pics of her from her showing days. I then made the same packet and presented it to them at the actual approval site. She was old and lame, but they did give her the approval that she needed in order to get the baby branded. (The judges also commented that they gave her the approval primarily because of her exceptional show record.)

In hind sight- I don't think I would go through all the trouble, but it was well worth it!!! The baby I got out of her is phenomenal. I am a sucker for mares that I know personally and have seen show, and know what they are really capable of, that is why did what I did. I would not have done it for just any mare.

[ilikridn]

First of all, I want to thank everyone for your help in my search. I've been away from the computer for awhile, so I'm trying to get caught up.

Stolensilver, I've been looking at the mares you are posting and I am thankful for your evaluations of them. Loin connection is one of the areas where I'm weak and trying to learn more about how to evaluate that part of a horse.

Which brings me to a question: Is there a good book on Horse Conformation that any of you would recommend? I've seen them, but would like to know if there's one that is a must have.

Viney, I've only briefly been able to look at the lopetx site so far. What a great resource for me since I'm here in TX. Thanks again for that.

Spacely, thank you for the link. I'm going to add it to my favorites so I don't lose it again.

Katy, I didn't realize you had to go through all that with your mare. And congratulations on finally finding her a new home!

I'd like to add that I'm not deadset on a TB mare. I originally had my Oldenburg mare I was going to use, but her health deteriorated. I hadn't even considered a TB until I'd been given the older one that I have (approved Hanoverian). She is so cool, and the most even incredible mover, even at her ripe old age. She is really fun to ride and such a talented horse. I was told that she had four fancy babies and that she was a Champion Hunter back in her day. We wanted to use her for our breeding and we would have been really happy if that had worked out, but oh, well... it didn't.

Another reason for considering a TB mare is that Gatsby is very often crossed with TB mares with success. He had 4 First Premium foals this year with BWP/NA, and 3 were by TB mares. (The one that was by a Hanoverian mare was in the Top Ten Fillies in the Nation.)

And, another reason for wanting a sound mare is something you touched on, Stolensilver. I wonder sometimes about breeding the broken down mares. I realize it's not totally fair because it is often a result of pushing a horse too hard and especially if it's done at a young age. But it still makes you wonder... if we could breed just the ones who hold up well, we might end up with horses who can stay sounder longer. Just a thought.

[findeight]

There is a book that was published about...oh...10-15 years ago I like.

It's a gal that explains how all the skeletal elements work by outlining the skeleton of a living horse in reflective tape. The pictures easily show how the hip and shoulder angles work together and how they influence movement. You can also see how all the other joints and angles function in creating quality of movement...or lack thereof.

She still does demonstrations at some of the trade shows/fairs/conventions. I'm sure somebody will remember her name and the title. But it is by far the best on analyzing conformation because it relates it to how everything actually works. Not just a bunch of theoretical statements.

[Paula]

I think you can get a much nicer mare with papers (probably already inspected and approved) for free. Particularly if you are interested in a tb. I have a friend who is downsizing his broodmare band and is actually giving away several very nice approved tb broodmares (one a Secretariet daughter). Her pictures can be seen at http://web.sendtoprint.net/proofbook/login.asp use the keyword signature and look at broodmare four under categories. Good luck!

[ilikridn]

Just wanted to let everyone that posted here know that I think I have found my mare. She is a registered Hanoverian by Wertherson. She's 12 years old, has jumped up to 4 ft with current owner, has done dressage with previous owners before that (no details there), and I went and saw her in person and watched the current owner ride her. She's a fantastic mover and has a wonderful disposition. Sweet on the ground and all business under saddle.

The current owner is in a dire financial situation and needs to sell her yesterday, so she's asking almost nothing for her. I'm having a PPE done this week along with a breeding soundness exam by a vet who specializes in reproduction and lameness.

I am very excited!

[fish]

Congratulations to you (and sympathies for the owner-- sounds very sad.)

I have heard very good things about Wertherson as a BM sire.

[Rhyadawn]

Congrats!! So happy for you that you found the right mare.

[sid]

I LOVED Wertherson!!

[Home Again Farm]

Wertherson has many wonderful daughters. Congrats to you in finding her. What is her motherline?

[ilikridn]

Dam is a TB mare (Won Tuff Cookie) by Jiwani out of a mare by Indian Emerald.