Is she worth breeding?

[Mukluk]

Hi Folks, I just got this OTTB mare- she's four and has been off the track since last spring but is just starting to be worked so not much of a topline yet. I'd like to use her for eventing. She has a nice mind and is very sweet- from what I can tell seems to move pretty well. She's between 16.1 and 16.2 right now and not hot at all.

http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/ff292/MyMukluk/

http://www.equineline.com/Free-5X-Pedigree.cfm?page_state=ORDER_AND_CONFIRM&reference_number=7186939&registry=T&horse_name=A%20True%20Angel&dam_name=True%20Irish&foaling_year=2004&nicking_stats_indicator=Y

Would like your honest opinion on if this mare is suitable for breeding based on pedigree and conformation. I would plan to breed her to a warmblood (and not for at least 3-4 years) if I do it. I would keep the baby for my next event horse.

If she appears suitable for breeding. Any ideas for who could be a good warmblood daddy?

Thanks. And please be brutally honest.

[showjumpers66]

Yes, she appears to be suitable for breeding although it also depends on her gaits and athletic ability. Honestly, you have too many options to list for her. I would look for stallions with a big, solid hind end, good topline, and a neck that ties in well to the withers.

[EquineLVR]

I say YES.. in fact in a have a 2004 filly that looks a lot like her and I am breeding her to More Than Luck..

I think he would be great for her too!

A couple others I really liked were:

ROC USA
Apiro
Westporte
Gatsby
Cunningham

GL - she looks very nice!

[Mukluk]

What do ya'll think of this guy?

http://cougarhillwarmbloods.com/Stallion.html

[EquineLVR]

He used to stand here in CO - at Crooked Willow farms.. not sure how much breeding he did - I did see him in person - seems like a nice boy... but he is VERY HEAVY.. so it might not be the best cross for a full TB mare.

I would send an email to Crooked Willow and ask them about him.

[lolita1]

I think the mare is nice but I would be very careful when selecting a stallion. She toes inwards in her near front hoof and toes out behind she isn't cow hocked just her hoofs toe out. I would look for a stallion that is very straight i.e. doesn't paddle either front or back and not even slightly cow hocked behind. Sorry don't really like that boy his conformation behind is what I like.

[Amoroso]

Personally, this is not a mare that I would consider for breeding. There are a few key points that I don't like about her, which would be enough for me to look for another mare. There are oodles of OTTB mares to select from, and I demand as close to perfection in a non proven OTTB (in terms of confo) as I can get. She has a weak neck connection to her shoulder which I'd hate to see come across on a foal. I find it is always the things we don't want to come out that tend to transfer from mare to foal! Worst case scenario, I think you need to be okay with a carbon copy of your mare when breeding and I don't think a WB/TB that looked identical to her would be that nice. She toes in on the left front from what appears to be the pastern down, and combined with her longer pasterns I don't like the combination. She is weak across the topline, although some of that can be attributed to conditioning, it is still partially the way she is built. I'd pass.

[Mukluk]

Thanks for all of your responses. I think she is a nice mare but certainly not perfect. Early on, I noticed her shorter neck and how it fits the rest of her. Folks have commented on the front leg but the vet did not seem to think it was an issue (for purchasing her as a riding horse). She was very inexpensive- and is such a sweet sensible mare- so I overlooked those faults. I suppose I could get a horse that has more ideal conformation by buying a young one. I certainly don't want to contribute to "I have a mare so I'm going to breed her" mentality. I think the ideal horse for me would probably be half TB and half Warmblood- mostly for the bigger size as I have very long legs so a "stouter" horse takes up my leg better. Just don't want the sluggish temperament that some WBs have. Angel is actually quite sensible and not at all hot so far- I almost feel like giving her some grain to make her more hyper- but that would be silly at this stage in the game. Calmer = safer. Again thanks for the responses and any more to come.

[fish]

I think this mare is cute and fine for breeding, especially if she has a good mind and movement for her intended career.
Re: the hind toes: take a look at Deb Bennet's 3 little books, *Principles Of Conformation Analysis,* esp. p. 75, vol. I, figure 32, Illustration, A which "shows the normal and desirable condition of the equine hind limb as seen from the rear. Its characteristics: ... toes point out, not straight forward. THE HIND TOES SHOULD POINT OUTWARD TO THE SAME DEGREE AS THE STIFLES -- never straight forward!" [Emphasis Bennet's] As Bennet goes on to say, the A hind leg, which toes out "delivers thrust without wobble and therefore is less prone than ["textbook straight" ones] to pathologies such as spavins."

[onqhanoverians]

Yawwwwnnn, very common and I can see some fault. Take her to a Hanoverian inspection and get comments if you already own her (though they are finished now until next July). If they don't approve her at least you have a cheap assessment. If they do approve her breed carefully.

There are plenty of common horses around. Breed for extraordinary and harmonious! That way in the event you cannot keep foal, you have a better chance to find a proper home. TBs are built to run fast so examine the gaits for the discipline you are aiming for.

[arizonard]

To be honest, I think I would pass as well. As another poster mentioned there are many OTTB mares to be had this time of year, and at very reasonable prices. If you would like to breed a TB mare, I would keep looking.

[fish]

I've seen a whole lot worse looking mares (both WB and TB) make super sport horse performers and/or broodmares. Seems to me that people are forgetting, too, that the OP already owns and likes this mare, who apparently has an excellent disposition and might be a good mover as well. Conformationally, while she's neither flawless nor spectacular, she is also, IMO, well above average, has several definite plusses (e.g. a lovely, long hip and gaskin), and not a single defect I would consider a serious "weak link" if it showed up in her foal. In addition, I do believe that some of the observations of her "faults" are incorrect. See my post above re: her hind end. With regard to that left front, I also think it worth mentioning that the (relatively slight) toeing in actually compensates for the leg's bench knee so the movement of the leg as a whole might well be pretty correct. I once had a TB mare whose front legs were both like that and she was one of the soundest horses ever. I've seen USDF breed show HOY winners with much worse legs than this mare.

IMO, the worst thing about this mare is her front: short, thin, slightly low set neck; long, narrow face; slightly upright shoulder, all of which would look a whole lot better if (as the OP suggests) she were on a proper body-building program. With a little luck, a nicely uphill, cutesy-faced stallion with a long neck set on the high end of a well-sloped shoulder could get a drop dead gorgeous baby out of this mare. In the meantime, I can think of many worse things that could happen to the OP than seeing this mare cloning herself.

[grayfox]

I agree with Fish.

[arizonard]

Pardon my reading ability...I didn't realize you already owned her. If you would like to breed her then that is a personal decision. I respect you for asking for objective opinions. Take what you know (as well as what has been additionally pointed out) about her conformation, temperament, movement, etc. and pick a stallion that you see as strong in her weak areas. She is a nice type and I am sure with the right pick you could improve upon her weaker areas. Good luck!

[Kyzteke]

Absolutely impossible to tell without see her move, jump ,etc.

I suggest you get her going, ride her, see how she does. THEN you can decide if she's worth breeding.

If she is successful in eventing, stays pretty sound, is safe and good minded -- then she is suitable for breeding, especially since the foal would be for you.

And personally, if you were breeding for eventing, I would pick a stallion that was good at that or had good scores in the cross-country portion as well as dressage/gaits/ etc.

[grayfox]

If your breeding for eventing what about Formula One or a talented jumper stallion like Cielo B?

[busybee]

Cute mare. Good luck with whomever you choose.

[fish]

P.S. I like this mare's pedigree, too.

I don't know a lot about a whole lot of stallions, but would seriously consider Cunningham for this mare: he's got the front I think she needs and is a sensational all around and beautifully conformed athlete. He's also done a great job with my TB mare whose front end required corrections in some respects similar to yours (i.e. slightly low and short, but well-shaped neck).

[Majestic Gaits]

I could not get picture to work. :-(

Kathy
www.majesticgaits.com

[risingstarfarm]

If your breeding for eventing what about Formula One or a talented jumper stallion like Cielo B?


Cielo B's 2009 video is just finished. Please contact me and I would be happy to send one out to you :-)

Good luck on your search!