Hickstead

[Sakura Hill Farm]

This stallion is causing such a stir in so many ways---just thought I would pass along news from a friend.

Hickstead semen will be available in NA through Ingrid Matthiessen at Matchmaker Equine.

[risingstarfarm]

Michele, thanks for posting this information. I, for one, wish I had the funds to put a mare to Hickstead! I LOVED him at the Masters in 2007 - when he came out on course I KNEW he'd win the class - such an amazing and careful jumper. Of course, I was thrilled by the 2008 games as well, - so happy for Hickstead and Eric.

At any rate, I must say that I don't get the whole hullabaloo about his approvals, etc. He's got a solid jumper pedigree and is extraordinarily talented. I think he's a perfect choice for some of the bigger Warmblood mares that are showing up in North American breeding programs ;-)

[can't re-]

Price?

[Sakura Hill Farm]

Price?

Price is not available just yet. Please check with Ingrid and I am sure that she will keep you posted when she has further information. She will also have further information as to fresh and frozen.

Ronda, I agree, the pricing will be a very important factor in his use. We have a great deal of Ekstein blood in our herd--a deliberate choice that we made when starting out---and so would probably not leap to use him now in any case. Perhaps with future generations....

[dbaygirl]

At any rate, I must say that I don't get the whole hullabaloo about his approvals, etc. He's got a solid jumper pedigree and is extraordinarily talented. I think he's a perfect choice for some of the bigger Warmblood mares that are showing up in North American breeding programs ;-)

What about his approvals...with registries you mean? I should think he would not need one!! Explain please?

[grayarabpony]

Hickstead is licensed with NRPS (Dutching Riding Horse and Pony) and approved by the American Holsteiner Horse Association. However he is not approved by the Holsteiner Verband in Germany, due to his relatively small size of around 16 hands.

[Foxtrot's]

Their loss, I say.

[ShowjumpersUSA]

Sounds like someone needs to start a thread about the difference between a sporthorse and a breeding stallion.

[dbaygirl]

Hickstead is licensed with NRPS (Dutching Riding Horse and Pony) and approved by the American Holsteiner Horse Association. However he is not approved by the Holsteiner Verband in Germany, due to his relatively small size of around 16 hands.

Thanks for the explanation. ARE YOU KIDDING? This exactly demonstrates how useless registries can be. It's one thing to evaluate a horse on one given day and not pass it because no one can know its true potential until it competes. But is this not defeating the purpose of breeding sport horses when most registries' goals are to breed for olympic disciplines???? Obviously, their criteria are simply not working if they will not approve a horse who has already done what their goals aspire to achieve in breeding horses. Obviously size does not matter to this horse because he can do any job that he is bred to do. One would think that Hickstead would be automatically life time approved in every registry in the world based on proven in competition. Let's face it, we like to have registration papers for our horses to prove what works in breeding and to identify individuals, but it's time we stop paying the big dollars for useless opinions (ie inspections)that mean nothing in the long run.

Also, some horses throw bigger than themselves. Genes skip generations.

[TrueColours]

Apparently he is just a hair UNDER 16hh like literally 15.3 15/16th's and the magic approval number is 16hh or taller ... :rolleyes:

And who cares is right

No one has any idea if he will tend to throw taller than he is and his height certainly has not affected his abilities in any way. So really - if the height issue IS a factor, put him to 17hh mares that tend to throw big and hope for 16.1-16.2hh offspring

It will be interesting to see if any of the Associations will "grandfather" him in or make an exception in any way

From a financial perspective, its the smartest thing they could do and from a publicity point of view - even smarter ...

Lets see which Association extends the invitation to him, if any ...

[ponygirl]

Thanks for the explanation. ARE YOU KIDDING? This exactly demonstrates how useless registries can be. It's one thing to evaluate a horse on one given day and not pass it because no one can know its true potential until it competes. But is this not defeating the purpose of breeding sport horses when most registries' goals are to breed for olympic disciplines???? Obviously, their criteria are simply not working if they will not approve a horse who has already done what their goals aspire to achieve in breeding horses. Obviously size does not matter to this horse because he can do any job that he is bred to do. One would think that Hickstead would be automatically life time approved in every registry in the world based on proven in competition. Let's face it, we like to have registration papers for our horses to prove what works in breeding and to identify individuals, but it's time we stop paying the big dollars for useless opinions (ie inspections)that mean nothing in the long run.

Also, some horses throw bigger than themselves. Genes skip generations.

I just wanted to say that there is a little more to the Verbands thinking that what was stated above. But that is not for this thread. He's a talented horse, no doubt! :)

[ShowjumpersUSA]

I just wanted to say that there is a little more to the Verbands thinking that what was stated above. But that is not for this thread. He's a talented horse, no doubt! :)

Exactly.

[Hocus Focus]

Rumor (from highly respected source) has it that Hickstead would not make an outstanding sire but I also wonder how he could be refused. Eric himself has been controversial for some time. I expect the buzz around this will be drug out for some time.

Controversy...controversy...controversy...and "the forgiveness of Britney"....not related but maybe....!!!

[ShowjumpersUSA]

Rumor (from highly respected source) has it that Hickstead would not make an outstanding sire but I also wonder how he could be refused. Eric himself has been controversial for some time. I expect the buzz around this will be drug out for some time.

Controversy...controversy...controversy...and "the forgiveness of Britney"....not related but maybe....!!!

If you're insinuating the stallion pays in the breeding shed for his rider's mistakes in life, you couldn't be more wrong. Hickstead stands on his own and I'm sure will be approved for breeding by some excellent sporthorse registries.

[cherham]

A horse of this calibre and outstanding athletic record can be approved for breeding with the Canadian Sport Horse Association.....and since I breed registered CSH's guess what I want Santa to bring me this year? I will be contacting Ingrid in the near future myself.

And bonus...the stallion (when not travelling all over the world competing) resides at his home farm about 8 miles from me in Ontario.

[DMK]

Hmmm, since the world of FEI show jumping is not a closed sport like horse racing, it sounds like the verband has executed a perfect move of cutting off its nose to spite it's face. <insert dry clap here> It's not like you need the verband to qualify for oh, say, the Olympics. You need them even less to win the whole shooting match.

Now maybe they had a good reason originally, but the horse has clearly proven them dead ass wrong in the area of performance so why not reevaluate? The verband might want to sign up for some plastic surgery to get that nose re-attached...

[tom]

I think some people are jumping to conclusions based on rumor and speculation.

There is no reliable information (meaning from the owners and/or the Verband) that I am aware of to suggest that Hickstead has been presented to or considered for approval by the Holsteiner Verband.

There is no reliable information (meaning from the owners and/or the Verband) that I am aware of that Hickstead has been rejected by any studbook.

What we have is a couple of US breeders who presume to be experts on the Holsteiner Verband's stallion approval policies and predilections stating that the Verband would never approve Hickstead for a variety of reasons that to me are silly or factually incorrect but to them are profound.

It is very very unlikely that the Verband would even take the time to consider approving Hickstead or entering him into a breeding experiment. Why? Hickstead is based in North America. If and when he stands at stud it will likely be from North America. Holsteiner breeders rarely use frozen semen. So what would be the point?

Arguments can be made for and against approving Hickstead, or any other stallion, in any studbook. I am not arguing that he should be approved by the Verband. I am instead pointing out that much of the speculation going on has no basis in fact.

[Hocus Focus]

If you're insinuating the stallion pays in the breeding shed for his rider's mistakes in life, you couldn't be more wrong. Hickstead stands on his own and I'm sure will be approved for breeding by some excellent sporthorse registries.


Let's not make this personal. Is any of this about right or wrong... it is a discussion and with it come forward different comments, and all are part of the whole picture. We all have the right to an opinion, and I think I am not the only one who obviously has one.

[grayarabpony]

Agreed. The fact that Hickstead was approved by the American Holsteiner Horse Association and not the Holsteiner Verband does not mean that he was turned down by the Holsteiner Verband.

However, the ruckus over Hickstead being approved by the AHHA means what? that the Holsteiner Verband isn't interested in him? Considering that the Holsteiner Verband is always looking for select outside stallions to outcross, and this horse has a very successful competition record...

[Bravestrom]

there was a thread a while ago saying that the semem was going to be priced at 15,000 - don't know if that is still true but I imagine that will be out of the price range for most csh breeders.

No offence to this great horse but he would be too small for my breeding tastes anyway but it would be nice to see some of his foals on the ground.

[ShowjumpersUSA]

I think some people are jumping to conclusions based on rumor and speculation.

There is no reliable information (meaning from the owners and/or the Verband) that I am aware of to suggest that Hickstead has been presented to or considered for approval by the Holsteiner Verband.

There is no reliable information (meaning from the owners and/or the Verband) that I am aware of that Hickstead has been rejected by any studbook.

What we have is a couple of US breeders who presume to be experts on the Holsteiner Verband's stallion approval policies and predilections stating that the Verband would never approve Hickstead for a variety of reasons that to me are silly or factually incorrect but to them are profound.

It is very very unlikely that the Verband would even take the time to consider approving Hickstead or entering him into a breeding experiment. Why? Hickstead is based in North America. If and when he stands at stud it will likely be from North America. Holsteiner breeders rarely use frozen semen. So what would be the point?

Arguments can be made for and against approving Hickstead, or any other stallion, in any studbook. I am not arguing that he should be approved by the Verband. I am instead pointing out that much of the speculation going on has no basis in fact.

I don't want to argue with you, Tom, but as respectfully as possible, I'm telling you you really don't know what you're talking about in regard to this stallion and how the Verband feels about approving him. It's possible you may find yourself wishing you had remained silent on this issue.

[tom]

No matter what the Verband does or does not do in relation to Hickstea there is nothing that I will regret writing because I base my statements on the best facts available and the best analysis available, not on rumor, speculation, and whatever else you use to "channel" the Verband's innermost thoughts.

[ShowjumpersUSA]

No matter what the Verband does or does not do in relation to Hickstea there is nothing that I will regret writing because I base my statements on the best facts available and the best analysis available, not on rumor, speculation, and whatever else you use to "channel" the Verband's innermost thoughts.

And herein lies the problem.

[Molly Malone]

And herein lies the problem.

I have no dog in this fight, but that has to be the most stupid thing I have ever read. There is problem with basing one's opinion on the facts available to one? What should you base your opinion on? Tarot cards? Tea leaves? Someone else's opinion?:lol:

[Drvmb1ggl3]

I can't for the life of me understand why people feel the need to get their knickers in a twist over this. There is nothing stopping anyone from breeding to Hickstead if they so desire (besides maybe not having a spare $15k in your pocket :)). What you will not be able to do is register any resulting foal with the Holsteiner Verband, which is hardly an issue for 99.99999% of the people that are bitching about his lack of approval by said organisation, as they don't breed and register their horses in Germany with Verband approved mares.
Why does it matter so much to people, many of whom are either avowed or mildly anti-WB, or specifically anti-Holst (going by their postings on this forum), whether an organisation they have no truck with approves a stallion or not?
It would be like people that breed Arabians or Icelandic riding ponies getting bent out of shape that none of the TB studbooks allow AI.... why would they care?

[ShowjumpersUSA]

I have no dog in this fight, but that has to be the most stupid thing I have ever read. There is problem with basing one's opinion on the facts available to one? What should you base your opinion on? Tarot cards? Tea leaves? Someone else's opinion?:lol:

Sometimes, when one is on the outside looking in, they may mistake their suppositions for "facts". That's my last word on this.

[tom]

The problem is that some people are writing posts that suggest/imply/state that Hickstead was not approved/was rejected by the Verband.

There is no factual evidence to support these statements.

These statements could damage the horse's reputation. (They shouldn't damage his reputation but they would among some people).

Hence the apparently false statements should be challenged.

[mikali]

Well for my two cents:

Regardless of registry and price, when I look at Hickstead I don't know if I would be rushing to him as one of my first stallion choices...

Hickstead is being masterfully ridden by Eric, no doubt - but what is Hickstead going to pass on to his offspring (i.e., Temperament, Size, Conformation, Movement, etc.)??

Breeding to Hickstead is going to require the right mare and with the right mare, I am sure that you will get some talented offspring.

I'm just worried that there will be a certain group of people breeding to Hickstead for the prestige of saying they have the offspring of the 2008 Olympic Gold medalist and that's the only reason that they picked him.

[ShowjumpersUSA]

The problem is that some people are writing posts that suggest/imply/state that Hickstead was not approved/was rejected by the Verband.

There is no factual evidence to support these statements.

These statements could damage the horse's reputation. (They shouldn't damage his reputation but they would among some people).

Hence the apparently false statements should be challenged.

I must have missed those posts. I haven't seen anything like that, although I have seen "if"... this and "if" that... To the best of my knowledge, Hickstead has not been served up for approval to the Verband.

[ponygirl]

Well for my two cents:

Regardless of registry and price, when I look at Hickstead I don't know if I would be rushing to him as one of my first stallion choices...

Hickstead is being masterfully ridden by Eric, no doubt - but what is Hickstead going to pass on to his offspring (i.e., Temperament, Size, Conformation, Movement, etc.)??

Breeding to Hickstead is going to require the right mare and with the right mare, I am sure that you will get some talented offspring.

I'm just worried that there will be a certain group of people breeding to Hickstead for the prestige of saying they have the offspring of the 2008 Olympic Gold medalist and that's the only reason that they picked him.

Insightful post.

[grayarabpony]

I can't for the life of me understand why people feel the need to get their knickers in a twist over this. There is nothing stopping anyone from breeding to Hickstead if they so desire (besides maybe not having a spare $15k in your pocket :)). What you will not be able to do is register any resulting foal with the Holsteiner Verband, which is hardly an issue for 99.99999% of the people that are bitching about his lack of approval by said organisation, as they don't breed and register their horses in Germany with Verband approved mares.
Why does it matter so much to people, many of whom are either avowed or mildly anti-WB, or specifically anti-Holst (going by their postings on this forum), whether an organisation they have no truck with approves a stallion or not?It would be like people that breed Arabians or Icelandic riding ponies getting bent out of shape that none of the TB studbooks allow AI.... why would they care?

And for the life of me I don't know why people put up posts like this. It's not even accurate as to what is going on.

The only people with a "twist in their knickers" on this board are Americans who are angry that the AHHA has approved Hickstead when the Holsteiner Verband has not yet approved him.

What's in bold is probably the 2nd stupidest thing I've read on this forum. The lack of understanding is mind-boggling.

[grayarabpony]

Well for my two cents:

Regardless of registry and price, when I look at Hickstead I don't know if I would be rushing to him as one of my first stallion choices...

Hickstead is being masterfully ridden by Eric, no doubt - but what is Hickstead going to pass on to his offspring (i.e., Temperament, Size, Conformation, Movement, etc.)??

Breeding to Hickstead is going to require the right mare and with the right mare, I am sure that you will get some talented offspring.

I'm just worried that there will be a certain group of people breeding to Hickstead for the prestige of saying they have the offspring of the 2008 Olympic Gold medalist and that's the only reason that they picked him.


Well, Hickstead is royally bred. What else has his family produced?

I wouldn't worry about that certain group of people. It's going to be rather small, if his stud fee is going to be very expensive as stated.

Now that he's available for breeding and will have foals on the ground, he'll probably be approved KWPN NA. This is probably the major thing that's kept this from happening so far, since his team has been concentrating on his sports career:

"A stallion is required to present a minimum of 10 offspring at their dam’s side for foal inspection within two years after approval. Foals can be presented at different keuring locations during the inspection tour, although the preference is to see them at one keuring location as a group.
A stallion is required to present 10 offspring (three to five years old) in studbook inspections by the time the oldest offspring are 5 years old.
Sport results of 10 offspring (five to eleven years old) must be submitted by the time the oldest offspring are eleven years old."

[Hocus Focus]

Hickstead and Eric Lamaze have done for Canada what no other rider/horse combination have been able to do before (including Captain Canada himself) and being by nature the bunch of conservative tight asses that we are, there probably will always be a dark cloud looming somewhere over this picture. I couldn't care less about most of it myself. I salute them as modern heros. ... "Colorful and accomplished".

[EquineLVR]

Hickstead and Eric Lamaze have done for Canada what no other rider/horse combination have been able to do before (including Captain Canada himself) and being by nature the bunch of conservative tight asses that we are, there probably will always be a dark cloud somewhere over this picture. I couldn't care less about most of it myself. I salute them as modern heros. ... "Colorful and accomplished".

That is HYSTERICAL... made my day.. thanks! :)

Edited to say that its probably not funny.. because it's sad but true - however it still made me laugh.

[Cartier]

I have no dog in this fight, but that has to be the most stupid thing I have ever read. There is problem with basing one's opinion on the facts available to one? What should you base your opinion on? Tarot cards? Tea leaves? Someone else's opinion?:lol:
I agree.

We see a pattern emerging from the posts in this and other recent threads. Some posters ground their opinions in transparent, thoughtful analysis, and/or on facts based upon actual life experience and first hand knowledge. Other posters seem grounded in an odd desire for one-upmanship. Now we have shrouds of secrecy and possible onerous outcomes for forming and expressing an opinion today - based upon available facts. Not sure what that is about, but it distracts from the credibly of the posters. I may not always agree with Tom, but I can always follow his thought process. He is clear, articulate and succinct. His posts add a great deal to this forum. Maybe we should all remember we are discussing the breeding of horses… i.e., theories and strategies for producing superior equine athletes. These theories should be transparent and straightforward. If we wish to assert that a given breeding theory is superior to others, we should expect to be challenged. We should expect to be able to defend the assertion, without getting off course with personal attacks. This type of discussion is not worth the intrigue or the growing personal animus.

[ponygirl]

Well, Hickstead is royally bred. What else has his family produced?

His dam has produced an international jumper, international eventer and 2 approved stallions.

[Ravencrest_Camp]

... "Colorful and accomplished".

In the case of Eric and Hickstead that would be COLOURFUL AND ACCOMPLISHED. :D:D:D

[grayarabpony]

His dam has produced an international jumper, international eventer and 2 approved stallions.

Thank you. :)

[PonyPile]

Im looking forward to seeing his breeding fee- not that Id be able to afford it.
His size does not throw me off. I have a mare that is 1/4 cm shorter. She also is a cat when it comes to jumping.
In a few years I may be able to afford the fee, imo it would be worth a shot :cool:

[tri]

Reminds me of all the hoopla over which registries would approve Art Deco - the KWPN-na turned him down as did the BWP.

And, which registries would approved VIP - the KWPN-na waffled and waffled and waffled (VIP competed internationally with tons of wins & was "royally" bred too) until he was too old to ship semen when they finally approved him.

And, when the AHHA turned down Doug Spink's stallion after the Holsteiner Verband DID approve him - talk about a horse paying for his rider's ....well whatever you would call it.

Curious, though, those of you who say Hickstead should be approved because of his performance record, do you think ANY "warmblood" (solid pedigree of euro wb bloodlines) stallion that competes at that level should be automatically approved with any warmblood registry no matter what?

[TrueColours]

Curious, though, those of you who say Hickstead should be approved because of his performance record, do you think ANY "warmblood" (solid pedigree of euro wb bloodlines) stallion that competes at that level should be automatically approved with any warmblood registry no matter what?


Yes

And not to divert this discussion but:

And, when the AHHA turned down Doug Spink's stallion after the Holsteiner Verband DID approve him - talk about a horse paying for his rider's ....well whatever you would call it.


Has anyone heard or can it be verified that Capone is now in the lawful possession of Corinne and not Doug any longer?

[ShowjumpersUSA]

I don't know Corinne, but I did get an email from her regarding a bio I did for Kyle. She told me she is now the owner of Capone.

[Oakstable]

That news would be worth its own thread.

[Kyzteke]

No offence to this great horse but he would be too small for my breeding tastes anyway but it would be nice to see some of his foals on the ground.

Too small for what?

Obviously not winning major international jumping competitions -- over and over again. It seems he's not to small to do THAT.

Heavens...has everyone forgotten Theodore O'Conner so soon?

[Tiki]

Shhhhhhh, Kyzteke, Holsteiners are different. They jump the moon, they are the best jumpers and they're all over 16h.

[ShowjumpersUSA]

Shhhhhhh, Kyzteke, Holsteiners are different. They jump the moon, they are the best jumpers and they're all over 16h.

Oooops... no they aren't, but their breeding stallions are. You've got to know your pedigrees... don't breed a mare who has a gene for short horses to a stallion who has likewise if you're trying to produce an approved stallion or States Premium mare. :)

You know, Kyzteke, your mentality is not all wrong... it if wasn't for that kind of thinking, there would be no Zangersheide or KWPN.

[cherham]

I will take a shot at answering that.....if a stallion (or a mare for that matter) has a proven performance record that just happens to include an Olympic Gold Medal amongst some other very presitgous awards I would definetly think that ANY sport horse organization would be crazy not to consider approving him for breeding. Think Voltaire.....boy some people changed their minds on him in short order.

If the horse is an acceptable sport horse "type" (conformation, temperment, proven athletic ability) and has a verifiable sport horse lineage why in the world would they not be accepted into a sport horse breeding association...and kudos to the owners of this wonderful stallion if they choose a North American organization to have him approved with with rather then a European one. And even better.....make it Canadian. :)

[tri]

I don't understand all this hoopla. The horse is in the U.S. (edited to say Canada) right? The holsteiner Verband is NOT in the U.S.(Canada) right? The holsteiner organization that IS in the U.S. approved him right? The AHHA has operated on and off again at odds with the Verband for years right? The horse is actually KWPN registered right? No one has said anything like why the KWPN-na hasn't approved him right?

Does the Verband inspect horses in Canada?

Seems like business as usual. What gives?

[DMK]

but what is Hickstead going to pass on to his offspring (i.e., Temperament, Size, Conformation, Movement, etc.)??

Breeding to Hickstead is going to require the right mare and with the right mare, I am sure that you will get some talented offspring.

I'm just worried that there will be a certain group of people breeding to Hickstead for the prestige of saying they have the offspring of the 2008 Olympic Gold medalist and that's the only reason that they picked him.

Just out of curiosity, how would this equation be different for any freshman sire in any discipline? Aren't they are all a crapshoot, Olympic winner to triple crown winner to NCHA champion, be they big or small? And for every last sire, even the great ones, it still takes the right mare.

But I agree that in every discipline some people will rush to breed their mare - regardless of her suitability - to the top performing freshman sire, unless of course the bloodstock manager declines to take their booking, and therein lies a good chunk of the success or failure of a freshman sire.

[stolensilver]

As an outsider looking in this is an amusing thread. It has the appearance of some posters being so tied up in randomly imposed rules (because, lets be honest, the size of a hand was chosen, randomly, by someone many years ago. Just because one stallion is 16 of these units and another is 15 and a half of them doesn't make the slightest difference to their athletic ability).

Isn't it time to let go of pre-conceived ideas of what is right and essential in a stallion and look at what breeders are trying to achieve which is soundness, trainability and jump. A stallion who has a proven record of carrying a full grown adult round huge international showjumping tracks and wins an olympic gold medal on the way ticks all these boxes. Since that stallion has achieved the goals of breeders and is from a proven sire line and proven mother line surely that is a stallion worthy of being used for breeding? And if a stallion a breeder personally does not like is approved for their preferred studbook there is nothing forcing that breeder to use that stallion. They could simply choose another stallion. The approval will not affect their breeding programme in any way.

I guess I just don't understand all the angst!

[tri]

look at what breeders are trying to achieve

Breeders? or Holsteiner breeders?

soundness, trainability and jump.

So, that is the criteria of what makes a holsteiner a holsteiner? Any horse that has soundess, trainability and jump and can carry an adult around an olympic course should automatically without any other thought, inspection, etc be called a holsteiner?

[Kyzteke]

Oooops... no they aren't, but their breeding stallions are. You've got to know your pedigrees... don't breed a mare who has a gene for short horses to a stallion who has likewise if you're trying to produce an approved stallion or States Premium mare. :)

You know, Kyzteke, your mentality is not all wrong... it if wasn't for that kind of thinking, there would be no Zangersheide or KWPN.

But isn't the ultimate goal to produce talented performance horses? That's what all those approved stallions and SPS mares are suppose to be doing, right?

And honestly, what kind of REAL difference does it make between 15.3 & 16hh? That's ONE INCH.

I don't breed jumpers, and certainly don't have $15K, but a horse with his performance record AND his dam's produce record would pique my interest -- I think I'd have to go out and FIND the perfect mare for him <g>.

[stolensilver]

I guess from Tri's response there is something special (majikal?) about Holsteiners? Are they related to Gypsy Vanners by any chance? Poop butterflies as they fly over fences? <g>

[stolensilver]

I've come back to this thread because I just cannot see why any studbook could be portrayed as objecting to a stallion who has proven that they have the soundness, trainability and jump to carry an adult round international jumping courses and win an olympic gold medal. Why are those achievements made to sound inadequate? Why would a predominately jumping studbook look for anything else? It's an open studbook for goodness sakes!

It isn't even as if we are talking about dressage which is subjective. This is jumping with an objective outcome and a high heritability. And a stallion who has not had any problems being approved for breeding with the studbooks he has been presented to.

[Kyzteke]

I've come back to this thread because I just cannot see why any studbook could be portrayed as objecting to a stallion who has proven that they have the soundness, trainability and jump to carry an adult round international jumping courses and win an olympic gold medal. Why are those achievements made to sound inadequate? Why would a predominately jumping studbook look for anything else? It's an open studbook for goodness sakes!

It isn't even as if we are talking about dressage which is subjective. This is jumping with an objective outcome and a high heritability. And a stallion who has not had any problems being approved for breeding with the studbooks he has been presented to.

Well, I'm not in the inner circle (or even the OUTER circle), but I THINK he was never actually presented to the Holsteiner Verband. So they didn't actually reject him.

And even without their help I'm sure he'll do just fine in the breeding shed....

[grayarabpony]

The Holsteiner Verband isn't nearly as much of an open registry as other European registries.

If the Holsteiner Verband doesn't want him other registries will. It's very very picky about what stallions will best suit their mare base. What will limit Hickstead the most is a high stud fee.

[tri]

I guess from Tri's response there is something special (majikal?) about Holsteiners?

Well, there probably is something special about all of the wb registries. Otherwise, why would people spend so much time and energy not to mention MONEY breeding horses within their various systems?

I could just have easily put the term "Trakehener" where "Holsteiner" is in the sentence or Hanoverian or Rhinelander or American Warmblood Registry. So, why aren't you asking why the KWPN (HIS HOME REGISTRY) hasn't unilaterally approved him? Why are you so concerned that the Holsteiner Verband hasn't approved him when the KWPN WHERE HE IS REGISTERED WITH hasn't approved him?

Look, I don't breed holsteiners but I take exception to the "any horse whatsoever that competes at olympic level should be unilaterally approved as breeding stock by any registry on the face of the planet without presentation," attitude.

[stolensilver]

Thanks for your reply tri. I didn't mention anything about whether the stallion should be presented or not. I was asking questions that were raised in my mind after reading the posts of some US Holstein breeders following Hickstead's approval by the AHHA.

I do know that the KWPN are busy promoting their studbook with full page adverts proclaiming him KWPN in Horse and Hound (UK's major competition equestrian magazine) at the moment. Perhaps there are approaches going on in the background for him to be accepted as a KWPN sire too?

[Amoroso]

I've been watching this thread for a while and I find it amusing.

We are discussing something that nobody can prove happened. We don't know if Hickstead has been presented to either the Holsteiner verbrand or the KWPN-NA. How would it be fair or correct in any capacity to wonder why he isn't approved KWPN-NA, if nobody knows whether the horse was presented? This baffles me.

[Bayhawk]

As an outsider looking in this is an amusing thread. It has the appearance of some posters being so tied up in randomly imposed rules (because, lets be honest, the size of a hand was chosen, randomly, by someone many years ago. Just because one stallion is 16 of these units and another is 15 and a half of them doesn't make the slightest difference to their athletic ability).

Isn't it time to let go of pre-conceived ideas of what is right and essential in a stallion and look at what breeders are trying to achieve which is soundness, trainability and jump. A stallion who has a proven record of carrying a full grown adult round huge international showjumping tracks and wins an olympic gold medal on the way ticks all these boxes. Since that stallion has achieved the goals of breeders and is from a proven sire line and proven mother line surely that is a stallion worthy of being used for breeding? And if a stallion a breeder personally does not like is approved for their preferred studbook there is nothing forcing that breeder to use that stallion. They could simply choose another stallion. The approval will not affect their breeding programme in any way.

I guess I just don't understand all the angst!

Hickstead is not a Holsteiner. He is short of the minimum height requirements. So approve him Holsteiner anyway ? Theodore O'Connor was not a Holsteiner and would not have met the minimum height requirements. Even though he was successful at the top of the sport.......should he be approved Holsteiner as well ? Same difference.

This is the mentality difference between being a sporthorse registry and a breed. If you're a breed.....as the Holsteiners are , then you don't take Hickstead , Theodore O'Connor , Darco etc.

They are perfectly fine with anyone else approving Hickstead. They are perfectly fine with Hickstead producing his own Olympic Champion. They don't care.......he is not a Holsteiner , too small and no way to put him in the "breeding experiment" even if they wanted too.

The Holsteiner breeding region is one of the smallest , yet they are more successful than most in the world. Why ? because they are conservative, patient , calculating and methodical. Look at Diarado.....he's bred a reported 1500 mares in his first year......only 80 in Holstein. Conservative.....

The Holstein gene has influenced every major studbook in the world and helped propell different studbooks to top rankings . Shouldn't we be happy that they are so careful ? I'm sure the KWPN and Zangersheide are !

[stolensilver]

Hang on! Holstein isn't a breed. It is (as you say later in your post) a breeding region. The studbook is open.

[tri]

We are discussing something that nobody can prove happened. We don't know if Hickstead has been presented to either the Holsteiner verbrand or the KWPN-NA. How would it be fair or correct in any capacity to wonder why he isn't approved KWPN-NA, if nobody knows whether the horse was presented? This baffles me.


That is my whole point - why the concentration on the Holsteiner Verband? Why isn't there the angst about any one of a number of other registries not unilaterally approving him?

Again, the AHHA did approve him and they have often run at odds with the Verband so no surprize there.

But why aren't you all who are basically saying the Holsteiner Verband is stupid calling ALL of the warmblood registries who haven't rushed out and approved him stupid? If you truly think the Hol.Verband is stupid, I guess most of them are.

[grayarabpony]

I've been watching this thread for a while and I find it amusing.

We are discussing something that nobody can prove happened. We don't know if Hickstead has been presented to either the Holsteiner verbrand or the KWPN-NA. How would it be fair or correct in any capacity to wonder why he isn't approved KWPN-NA, if nobody knows whether the horse was presented? This baffles me.

No one has claimed that Hickstead was presented anywhere and turned down.

The silly argument began over bayhawk insinuating that the horse wasn't breeding material because he's around 16 hands rather than 17. Or at least, not good enough in theory for the Holsteiner Verband. :rolleyes:

Now that semen will be made available, he probably will be presented for more approvals. KWPN-NA requires standards for foals on the ground in order for a stallion to retain his approval.

[PineTreeFarm]

That is my whole point - why the concentration on the Holsteiner Verband? Why isn't there the angst about any one of a number of other registries not unilaterally approving him?

Again, the AHHA did approve him and they have often run at odds with the Verband so no surprize there.

But why aren't you all who are basically saying the Holsteiner Verband is stupid calling ALL of the warmblood registries who haven't rushed out and approved him stupid? If you truly think the Hol.Verband is stupid, I guess most of them are.

What registries has he been presented to?
Did the Holsteiner verband actually turn him down or are folks here just saying the verband would not approve him due to size?

I think it really doesn't matter as his stud fee may high enough to stop most folks. It it is very high maybe that will stop people from breeding sub par mares to him.

[Bayhawk]

Hang on! Holstein isn't a breed. It is (as you say later in your post) a breeding region. The studbook is open.

The studbook is not open ! It is under very strict control by the HV. They control the very few outside stallions let in for experimental breeding.

[stolensilver]

Holstein accepts outside stallions. That is the definition of an open studbook. How can you dispute this? Just because they don't accept very many outside stallions doesn't alter the fact that blood from other studbooks is allowed to be used.

[Fairview Horse Center]

How/why would any stallion standing in North America be presented at a European Licensing? Fly him across the pond just for the inspection? I truly doubt that has happened. If the AHHA waited for the Verband to approve a NA stallion, they could literally be waiting until ____ freezes over. (although that just may be happening outside my door today, BRRRRR) ;)

[Galileo1998]

Fairview - Hickstead has been in Europe for most of the last four months. I have no idea if he has presented anywhere for approval, he's over there jumping in Grand Prix classes. He went there after Spruce and other than flying back for one class at the Royal Winter Fair that is where he's been.

[tri]

If the horse was destined to be in North America and the AHHA DOESN'T automatically approved Holstein Verband approved stallions, why would anyone want to take time away from the horse TRAINING FOR INT'L GPs to approve him in a registry that wouldn't have any impact on his future? He would then still have to go through the AHHA - waste of time & money unless they were planning on shipping frozen semen back across the pond into europe.

But Reece is right, the Verband is much more closed than say, the KWPN, Oldenburgs, Rhinelander, etc.

When a breeder wants to "add some good holsteiner jumping blood" into their program, they usually aren't talking about adding a holstiner approved dutch bred/oldenburg bred/hanoverian bred horse. They WANT HOLSTEINER BLOOD.

Just like when a breeder wants to "add some good french jumping blood", they aren't talking about adding holsteiner blood.

And when a breeder talks about adding some Trak blood, they aren't talking about adding hanoverian blood.

[Bayhawk]

Holstein accepts outside stallions. That is the definition of an open studbook. How can you dispute this? Just because they don't accept very many outside stallions doesn't alter the fact that blood from other studbooks is allowed to be used.

Noooo......that is not the definition of an open studbook. Zangersheide, RPSI etc is the definition of an open studbook.

You can't just take a stallion and put him in front of the HV for approval. If it is a Holsteiner stallion , like Tom's Condios , then yes.

Take Arko III as an example. The HV has to decide whether they will look at him or not. This is NOT an open studbook.

The great Argentinus........the HV does not want him in their book. They don't want his type breeding to their mares and I was personally told this by the President of the Holsteiner Verband.

[Cartier]

The great Argentinus........the HV does not want him in their book. They don't want his type breeding to their mares and I was personally told this by the President of the Holsteiner Verband.

I connect to your deep respect for the HV and their desire to perpetuate only certain characteristics within their gene pool. On a very basic level, I respect the concept of looking generations into the future, as opposed to looking to produce the next hot horse (which seems to typify the strategies of other breeding fraternities). Would love the hear more about your quote above. If you know details, what is there about Argentinus’ type that they wish to avoid incorporating?

[Bayhawk]

I connect to your deep respect for the HV and their desire to perpetuate only certain characteristics within their gene pool. On a very basic level, I respect the concept of looking generations into the future, as opposed to looking to produce the next hot horse (which seems to typify the strategies of other breeding fraternities). Would love the hear more about your quote above. If you know details, what is there about Argentinus’ type that they wish to avoid incorporating?

I , as do the HV , have enormous respect for the great Argentinus. He has very often been ranked the #1 sire in the world. Respect , respect , respect BUT........his type is not right to breed in Holstein. We all know he is a very big , older type stallion and he is not the type Holstein breeds just like Darco is not , nor is Hickstead.

This concept seems hard for people to phathom. Argentinus, Darco , Hickstead etc etc etc......ALL tremendous sires and athletes but not right for Holstein. They have a certain direction that they are going with their breed type, and it doesn't matter if your the #1 sire in the world or you are the Olympic Champion.......these horses simply are not desired for Holsteiner breeding. You must remember the Holstein vision.....it seldom wavers.

[Cartier]

I , as do the HV , have enormous respect for the great Argentinus. He has very often been ranked the #1 sire in the world. Respect , respect , respect BUT........his type is not right to breed in Holstein. We all know he is a very big , older type stallion and he is not the type Holstein breeds just like Darco is not , nor is Hickstead.

This concept seems hard for people to phathom. Argentinus, Darco , Hickstead etc etc etc......ALL tremendous sires and athletes but not right for Holstein. They have a certain direction that they are going with their breed type, and it doesn't matter if your the #1 sire in the world or you are the Olympic Champion.......these horses simply are not desired for Holsteiner breeding. You must remember the Holstein vision.....it seldom wavers.

I did not mean to suggest or infer that you had anything but the utmost respect for Argentinus, whom you referred to as “the great Argentinus.” I assumed that the accolade was a reflection of you high esteem for the stallion. And I understand the point you have made about the HV wishing to focus very specifically on a certain type. I was simply wondering what there was specifically about Argentinus’ type that was objectionable to the HV… other than that he is large. To put it in a context, on this side of the pond we see fewer representatives of any given stallion’s progeny than they see in Europe. So, in some respects we are even more dependant upon others to guide us, which may account for posts that say, “tell me what you know about a stallion or bloodline.” We generally have the positive data about a given stallion, usually provided by the owner or a semen seller. It is of some value to balance that with supplemental data, which may be widely known in other circles. Sometimes the most accurate and useful data about a breeding animal comes from those with no stake in the animal. Since you admire the stallion (even though you would not use him because you breed Holsteiners according to the HV rules,) I thought you might have some interesting and valuable observations about him.

[stolensilver]

We're going to have to agree to disagree about the openness or otherwise of the Holsteiner studbook Bayhawk. :) Your faith in the omniscience of the verband amazes me. Do you not see them as people, just like you and me and as capable as we are of making mistakes?

[Bayhawk]

I did not mean to suggest or infer that you had anything but the utmost respect for Argentinus, whom you referred to as “the great Argentinus.” I assumed that the accolade was a reflection of you high esteem for the stallion. And I understand the point you have made about the HV wishing to focus very specifically on a certain type. I was simply wondering what there was specifically about Argentinus’ type that was objectionable to the HV… other than that he is large. To put it in a context, on this side of the pond we see fewer representatives of any given stallion’s progeny than they see in Europe. So, in some respects we are even more dependant upon others to guide us, which may account for posts that say, “tell me what you know about a stallion or bloodline.” We generally have the positive data about a given stallion, usually provided by the owner or a semen seller. It is of some value to balance that with supplemental data, which may be widely known in other circles. Sometimes the most accurate and useful data about a breeding animal comes from those with no stake in the animal. Since you admire the stallion (even though you would not use him because you breed Holsteiners according to the HV rules,) I thought you might have some interesting and valuable observations about him.

Cartier....it's his type. He is very large and older type and more importantly he tends to breed this way as well. They love his genotype and his ability to transmit but it's simply his phenotype that they don't want. This is all the President of the Verband relayed to me is that they didn't want to inject his type into the Holstein mare herd.

A friend of mine has a really athletic Argentinus mare but she is huge and suffering in gender expression and femininity.

You are correct that I would not use him since he is not approved by the HV.

[Bayhawk]

We're going to have to agree to disagree about the openness or otherwise of the Holsteiner studbook Bayhawk. :) Your faith in the omniscience of the verband amazes me. Do you not see them as people, just like you and me and as capable as we are of making mistakes?

What mistakes ? If they don't want to use a particular stallion(s) it's their perogative. Even if said stallion turns out to be a world beater , it's still not a mistake. They are more than happy for Argentinus to be #1 in the world......he's just not for them , just like #1 Capitol was not for Hannover.

If I've heard them say one time, I've heard them say it a thousand..........."we don't do it that way" or "that stallion is unbelievable, but not for what we do "

[stolensilver]

I guess you answered my question. :) You really do see the verband as omniscient don't you? Wow!

[ShowjumpersUSA]

I guess you answered my question. :) You really do see the verband as omniscient don't you? Wow!

I usually try to avoid saying someone's opinion is silly... but, in this case....well...this is silly. Reece is talking about breeding Holsteiners... so, in that case, what model does it seem appropriate for him to follow?

[stolensilver]

Blindly following anything is not wise is what I'm saying. I'm stunned that anyone would believe that human beings are not capable of making mistakes.

[mazu]

Blindly following anything is not wise is what I'm saying. I'm stunned that anyone would believe that human beings are not capable of making mistakes.

I'm equally stunned that anyone could fail to see any value in having a specific vision and direction for a given studbook, and being willing to risk losing money/breeders rather than risk going astray of that vision (with, e.g., popular/successful stallions that are not appropriate for one's mare base).

I really respect the HV for this. I'm sure they do make mistakes, yes, but I'm just as convinced that this kind of approach is far, far preferable to the "come one, come all" approach that many of our American registries fall victim to.

Just look at the results.

[Cartier]

Cartier....it's his type. He is very large and older type and more importantly he tends to breed this way as well. They love his genotype and his ability to transmit but it's simply his phenotype that they don't want. This is all the President of the Verband relayed to me is that they didn't want to inject his type into the Holstein mare herd.

A friend of mine has a really athletic Argentinus mare but she is huge and suffering in gender expression and femininity.

You are correct that I would not use him since he is not approved by the HV.
Thank you. And again, if you know, has the HV's ideal type remained pretty static over the years... or is it evolving towards a more refined animal. Do they feel they have achieved the exact phenotype they desire?

[Hocus Focus]

Bayhawk... Cartier...good discussion posts. Thank you.

[Bayhawk]

Blindly following anything is not wise is what I'm saying. I'm stunned that anyone would believe that human beings are not capable of making mistakes.

"Blindly following" ? I hardly think that with a selection of roughly 500 stallions around the world to breed my mares to is blindly following anything !

I breed Holsteiners, and to that end......I will breed APPROVED Holsteiner stallions to my Holsteiner mares. If that's blind , I guess I can't see.

The KWPN or Z models are there for your liberal breeding position.......go for it !

[Cartier]

Bayhawk... Cartier...good discussion posts. Thank you.

Thanks back. We breed dogs and horses. Canines have a gestation period of 58 – 63 days… and the animal is pretty much fully mature at 2 years of age and able to contribute the next generation. A canine breeder has pretty good feedback in a relatively short period of time as to whether they are going in the right direction or not. With breeding equines the risks are so much greater…and the time necessary to evaluate the wisdom of your breeding decisions is measured in decades, not years. I think the observing the breeding decisions of a group like the HV (which can be tracked over a lengthy period of time), is of great value.

[Bayhawk]

Thank you. And again, if you know, has the HV's ideal type remained pretty static over the years... or is it evolving towards a more refined animal. Do they feel they have achieved the exact phenotype they desire?

You're welcome ! The breed is ever evolving but they are pretty much where they want to be at this juncture , hence you see less babies from TB sires every year.

They seem to be concentrating on bringing in more jump genes from QDR , Diamant de semilly , For Pleasure , Ephebe Forever etc instead of refinement traits of TB stallions.

Dr. Nissen just went and hand picked the TB stallion Ibisco. He believes that they need to keep using the TB blood and to be careful when using the aforementioned stallions that their offspring don't become too boxy and heavier.

Long lined horses are one of the type traits of Holsteiners and you tend to lose some of that when breeding to stallions like Quidam de
Revel .

[grayarabpony]

Of course this was about 40 years ago --- and no I don't have a personal stake in whether or not Hickstead is approved Holsteiner Verband, in fact the idea hadn't occurred to me until I opened the recent threads -- but I wonder which was Ladykiller's true height -- 164 cm (16 hands) or 169 cm (16 2 1/2 hands) ? I've seen his height listed as both of these numbers -- I would have guessed he was over 16 hands.

[Cartier]

You're welcome ! The breed is ever evolving but they are pretty much where they want to be at this juncture , hence you see less babies from TB sires every year.

They seem to be concentrating on bringing in more jump genes from QDR , Diamant de semilly , For Pleasure , Ephebe Forever etc instead of refinement traits of TB stallions.

Dr. Nissen just went and hand picked the TB stallion Ibisco. He believes that they need to keep using the TB blood and to be careful when using the aforementioned stallions that their offspring don't become too boxy and heavier.

Long lined horses are one of the type traits of Holsteiners and you tend to lose some of that when breeding to stallions like Quidam de
Revel .

Which Holsteiner stallions do you feel best typify the ideal type preferred by the HV… if you could name half a dozen. And what does "long lined horses" mean... would that be something like Contender?

[Bayhawk]

Of course this was about 40 years ago --- and no I don't have a personal stake in whether or not Hickstead is approved Holsteiner Verband, in fact the idea hadn't occurred to me until I opened the recent threads -- but I wonder which was Ladykiller's true height -- 164 cm (16 hands) or 169 cm (16 2 1/2 hands) ? I've seen his height listed as both of these numbers -- I would have guessed he was over 16 hands.

At the time Ladykiller xx was used in Holstein , they had really big mares and my info shows him to be 168 (16.2 hands). It was reported by the announcer at the Olympics that Hickstead was 15.1 , then the most consistent report I've heard is that he is really 15.2 or 3.

I don't know if Hickstead was ever presented to or even discussed with the HV. What I have heard is that the HV took great exception to his approval by the AHHA.

[Bayhawk]

Which Holsteiner stallions do you feel best typify the ideal type preferred by the HV… if you could name half a dozen. And what does "long lined horses" mean... would that be something like Contender?

Long lined meaning long lines. Long hips , long shoulders , long torso , long legs etc. Rectangular frame is the best way to say it.

Canto is a good example of a true Holstein type. The 2nd reserve champion stallion this year by Carlos is another great example. Other long lined examples : Contender , Calato , Clinton , Cascari , Casiro , Acorado , Corrado ( although he's a liitle long and weak in the back ) Linaro etc.

[Cartier]

thank you.

[grayarabpony]

Hickstead is listed on paardenfokken as 16 hands -- ha I would like to see him sticked, with a level.

Actually I had no idea he was on the "small" side -- although it still kind of blows that mind that 16 hands is considered small in some circles!

I would imagine he'll be approved KWPN-NA.

There was a Swedish mare who placed 4th in the 2002 WEG who was 15.3 (maybe), a daughter of Robin Z I believe. The great Espri is also listed as 164 cm.

[imajacres]

Well, wow, what a thread!
Anyway, here is the info some of you have been waiting for. Hickstead semen is going to be available world wide. He has been frozen in Europe by now, and in a few weeks will be frozen in North America. The amount of semen to be sold is very limited. It is priced at $5500 USD/ breeding dose. There is no LFG. Over 1/2 of what is available is already sold.
If you would like to have more info, please let me know. Thanks, Ingrid

[ShowjumpersUSA]

Ingrid, where can the foals be registered? What registries has Hickstead been approved with?

[*DS*]

The one thing about hickstead is he's a freak of nature. But I know for a fact that Hickstead's full brother is not an amazing jumper by any means. Even though with his bloodlines he should be.

[grayarabpony]

The one thing about hickstead is he's a freak of nature. But I know for a fact that Hickstead's full brother is not an amazing jumper by any means. Even though with his bloodlines he should be.

He's a freak of nature even though he has amazing bloodlines for jumping?

[PineTreeFarm]

The one thing about hickstead is he's a freak of nature. But I know for a fact that Hickstead's full brother is not an amazing jumper by any means. Even though with his bloodlines he should be.

How old is the full brother? Very young I think.

[DMK]

The one thing about hickstead is he's a freak of nature. But I know for a fact that Hickstead's full brother is not an amazing jumper by any means. Even though with his bloodlines he should be.

Is it a sample size of two so far, or are there more full or even half siblings. Because if it is only 2, it's a 50/50 chance it's not Hickstead that is a freak, but the other sibling. "Freaky" can statistically work in both directions. Freaky bad is an option. ;)

But yes, I tend to think of any horse that is as good as he has been is most likely not going to reproduce his specific talents. There's a lot of nurture and good luck and circumstance involved in a succesful athlete as everyone who has ever sat on a horse all to well knows.

But if he does have solid lines and he is good at his job, hey there might be something worth perpetuating here.

[ponygirl]

How old is the full brother? Very young I think.

He's an 04 model

[tom]

Hickstead has a half-brother that is an international eventing horse.

[LivviesMom]

A horse of this calibre and outstanding athletic record can be approved for breeding with the Canadian Sport Horse Association.....and since I breed registered CSH's guess what I want Santa to bring me this year? I will be contacting Ingrid in the near future myself.

And bonus...the stallion (when not travelling all over the world competing) resides at his home farm about 8 miles from me in Ontario.

And Sight unseen at that most likely! I'm sure CSHA would love to add him to the approved list. I've got a breeding age mare :winkgrin:
Just have to get the stud fee money! lol

[TrueColours]

Here is another question for all of you

I bred a race mare of mine to stallion named Alumni Hall, for a 2009 foal. He is a freshman sire, stood for a modest $5000.00 stud fee, is impeccably bred (an AP Indy son), has good connections that are promoting him very heavily and very well, and are putting a lot of good mares to him. His success on the track was good - but not stellar ($700,000.00+ in earnings) so he could not be compared to a Gold Medal winning show jumping stallion

Alumni Hall has the next 3-5 years to ride on past credentials, his bloodlines, the hype, etc before the foals prove or disprove his ability to sire good fast running race horses on the track. After that his stud fee will rise or he will fade into oblivion

Is this same with a stallion like Hickstead? Based on the hype, the solid bloodlines, the past gold medal performance results and probably good results for several more years to come, with his foals command top top dollar if/when they are for sale until THEY prove or disprove his ability to sire credible offspring in the show ring?

Anyone want to venture any guesses as to what a Hickstead foal out of a credible mare should fetch in 2010 on an in utero basis as well as once it hits the ground? And will there BE a strong market for these young foals or will people want to wait and see what talent they do / dont have as 3-6 year olds before they pull their cheque book out?

[TraksRuleDutchDrool]

I just read this:
Hickstead Offered for Breeding in North America
http://www.horse-canada.com/?p=1750

According to the article it will be $5500USD, still A LOT, but better than $15k! I noticed it does not list a specific registry.

too bad my girl's a trakehner and he's all wrong for her 'cause this is one dutch horse that makes ME drool - lol!

[Hillside H Ranch]

I just read this:
Hickstead Offered for Breeding in North America
http://www.horse-canada.com/?p=1750

According to the article it will be $5500USD, still A LOT, but better than $15k! I noticed it does not list a specific registry.

too bad my girl's a trakehner and he's all wrong for her 'cause this is one dutch horse that makes ME drool - lol!

I just got an email regarding the Hickstead semen basically stating the above. $5500/dose, obviously no LFG. Apparently very limited amount available and according to the email I got they've sold about 1/2 the doses available already...

[FMulder]

With a per dose fee of close to 4000€ (I assume 8 straws, but somehow think it might be less), no stock on the ground and no indication of semen quality, I'd give this a wide birth. I can't think of many stallions over the 4K€ mark, and those I can hang around at the top of the annual rankings every year.

This is another Arko III situation, and I'd prefer to watch others take the risk before I go near these two. Perhaps I'm a little conservative, but at that price it's just madness, I wouldn't mind the money for something proven but Hickstead really isn't.

[tri]

You really do see the verband as omniscient don't you? Wow!

I really can't wrap my head around this kind of post. So, it is your opinion that wb breeding registries shouldn't have any kind of vision on what type they are trying to produce? You believe that all the wb registries should be breeding exactly the same horse with exactly the same protocol, with exactly the same philosophy, with exactly the same bloodlines?

It doesn't have to do with "omniscient". Someone has to be in charge of any given registry and those in charge I am assuming have worked their way to that position and proven that they are on board with the overall vision of where the studbook is going, in agreement with the balance of the members of that studbook.

Beats all the disorganization, hoopla and crap in most of the U.S. branches of the wb registries where there is NO vision and you can not distingish most of the horses from any other studbook....or from any other random TB cross sitting in someone's backyard.

[Hillside H Ranch]

With a per dose fee of close to 4000€ (I assume 8 straws, but somehow think it might be less), no stock on the ground and no indication of semen quality, I'd give this a wide birth. I can't think of many stallions over the 4K€ mark, and those I can hang around at the top of the annual rankings every year.

This is another Arko III situation, and I'd prefer to watch others take the risk before I go near these two. Perhaps I'm a little conservative, but at that price it's just madness, I wouldn't mind the money for something proven but Hickstead really isn't.


I have to say, I'm in 100% agreement with this! Breeding is already a gamble, I'm not THAT big a gambler!

[vineyridge]

A friend of mine has a really athletic Argentinus mare but she is huge and suffering in gender expression and femininity.

I don't understand this. What are the benefits to a sport horse or sport horse dam or even a registry of "Gender expression" and "feminity"?

Is this sexism at its worse, or is there experience and a rational basis for such a statement as negative criticism? I keep thinking about girls in pink and all the gender stereotypes human females have had to fight for so long.

[Ravencrest_Camp]

With a per dose fee of close to 4000€ (I assume 8 straws, but somehow think it might be less), no stock on the ground and no indication of semen quality, I'd give this a wide birth. I can't think of many stallions over the 4K€ mark, and those I can hang around at the top of the annual rankings every year.

This is another Arko III situation, and I'd prefer to watch others take the risk before I go near these two. Perhaps I'm a little conservative, but at that price it's just madness, I wouldn't mind the money for something proven but Hickstead really isn't.

I am not disagreeing with you at all.

But just as a devil's advocate arguement, if someone had an extra $5 500 burning a hole in their pocket. What do you think a Hickstead foal would command on the open market? In light of his recent success and whatever hype can be generated. Does the $5 500 gamble look as risky? Or would you still stick to a less expensive stallion with a track record?

I am also wondering, how they came up with the stud fee?

[imajacres]

[QUOTE=Zangersheide;3712305]With a per dose fee of close to 4000€ (I assume 8 straws, but somehow think it might be less), no stock on the ground and no indication of semen quality, I'd give this a wide birth.

Thanks for pointing these things out, I forgot to include them in my original post ( sleep deprived).
So please add to the original-
"Hickstead semen is going to be available world wide. He has been frozen in Europe by now, and in a few weeks will be frozen in North America. The amount of semen to be sold is very limited. It is priced at $5500 USD/ breeding dose.
There are 8 straws per dose in the European collection, and it will depend on the technique used in USA to determine the number of straws in the North American semen. The semen is of above average quality in post thaw motility.
There is no LFG. Semen is limited, and over 1/2 of what is available is already sold.
If you would like to have more info, please let me know. Thanks, Ingrid"

[Bayhawk]

I don't understand this. What are the benefits to a sport horse or sport horse dam or even a registry of "Gender expression" and "feminity"?

Is this sexism at its worse, or is there experience and a rational basis for such a statement as negative criticism? I keep thinking about girls in pink and all the gender stereotypes human females have had to fight for so long.

I guess you don't mind your mares looking like transvestites ? Of course the mare doesn't have to look feminine to jump at any level but could this example be one of the reasons a stallion like Argentinus isn't wanted for breeding in the HV ? Could be.....

Go to any elite mare show in Europe and you will see gender expression on an extremely large scale. Mares need to look like mares !

To even be debating this point is ridiculous.

[RiddleMeThis]

I guess you don't mind your mares looking like transvestites ? Of course the mare doesn't have to look feminine to jump at any level but could this example be one of the reasons a stallion like Argentinus isn't wanted for breeding in the HV ? Could be.....

Go to any elite mare show in Europe and you will see gender expression on an extremely large scale. Mares need to look like mares !

To even be debating this point is ridiculous.I have no words for this....better go tell my little cousin that she needs to put on her dress instead of pants today. She needs to look like a girl.:no:

[ShowjumpersUSA]

I have no words for this....better go tell my little cousin that she needs to put on her dress instead of pants today. She needs to look like a girl.:no:

We're talking about horses, not people. I hope this element of judging the quality of a mare doesn't cause anyone to drag this thread through a mud puddle. Please don't grasp at straws and do try to keep in mind the context in which words are used.

[RiddleMeThis]

We're talking about horses, not people. I hope this element of judging the quality of a mare doesn't cause anyone to drag this thread through a mud puddle. Please don't grasp at straws and do try to keep in mind the context in which words are used.And imo her "looking like a mare" has no bearing on being a quality horse. You dont see people passing up Grand Prix prospects because they "look like transvestites."

[ShowjumpersUSA]

[quote=Zangersheide;3712305]With a per dose fee of close to 4000€ (I assume 8 straws, but somehow think it might be less), no stock on the ground and no indication of semen quality, I'd give this a wide birth.

Thanks for pointing these things out, I forgot to include them in my original post ( sleep deprived).
So please add to the original-
"Hickstead semen is going to be available world wide. He has been frozen in Europe by now, and in a few weeks will be frozen in North America. The amount of semen to be sold is very limited. It is priced at $5500 USD/ breeding dose.
There are 8 straws per dose in the European collection, and it will depend on the technique used in USA to determine the number of straws in the North American semen. The semen is of above average quality in post thaw motility.
There is no LFG. Semen is limited, and over 1/2 of what is available is already sold.
If you would like to have more info, please let me know. Thanks, Ingrid"

Can you give us any details other than fee schedule about Hickstead? After your first post, I asked what registries he is approved for breeding with. Do you know the answer to that question?

Also, has anyone actually put a stick on him? Is there an official height measurement somewhere... like maybe USEF or FEI? I do know of someone who put a stick on him, but it is not an official measurement... just curious about whether there is actually any additional information that might help mare owners make breeding decisions....height, cannon bone measurement...that kind of thing... and a conformation photo?

Does he have foals on the ground anywhere?

[ShowjumpersUSA]

And imo her "looking like a mare" has no bearing on being a quality horse. You dont see people passing up Grand Prix prospects because they "look like transvestites."

In sporthorses, you are absolutely right... matters not. If you're judging breeding stock, it does matter. Again, goes to "type."

[RiddleMeThis]

In sporthorses, you are absolutely right... matters not. If you're judging breeding stock, it does matter. Again, goes to "type." But isnt the point of breeding (in sport horse breeding at least) to BREED for sport horses? Shouldnt the qualifications for sport horse vs. sport horse broodmare (or stallion) be almost identical? Shouldnt you pick the best sport horse vs. the one that looks like a mare?

[ShowjumpersUSA]

But isnt the point of breeding (in sport horse breeding at least) to BREED for sport horses? Shouldnt the qualifications for sport horse vs. sport horse broodmare (or stallion) be almost identical? Shouldnt you pick the best sport horse vs. the one that looks like a mare?

Yes, of course you want the whole package. Breeding stock is judged on type, topline, legs, movement, jump... etc. Breeding stock is held to a higher standard than sport stock.

[Bayhawk]

But isnt the point of breeding (in sport horse breeding at least) to BREED for sport horses? Shouldnt the qualifications for sport horse vs. sport horse broodmare (or stallion) be almost identical? Shouldnt you pick the best sport horse vs. the one that looks like a mare?

If you are looking for a sporthorse then you can potentially find that horse on any piece of ground on this earth.

This is why alot of ugly mares are in sport.....the breeders didn't want them for breeding . In general , how are you supposed to have stallion mothers if they are not feminine and exhibit proper gender expression ? Do you expect to get female gender expression from the stallion ? I certainly hope not. There is evidently still alot to learn about BREEDING in this country. I think the sporthorse concept is well known here but understanding BREEDING STOCK is still way off.

How hard is to understand that mares need to look like mares ? I don't want big block headed mares that produce big block headed daughters. I want beautiful mares with big beautiful eyes, femininity and enormous presence . I want to look at my broodmares and go.......damn she's beautiful ! Oh yeah.....pretty mares who look like pretty mares jump the moon too !

I still can't believe we are even having this conversation.

[imajacres]

[QUOTE=ShowjumpersUSA;3712695][quote=imajacres;3712469]

Can you give us any details other than fee schedule about Hickstead? After your first post, I asked what registries he is approved for breeding with. Do you know the answer to that question?

Hi there, sorry, I missed your question.
Approvals are being worked out as we speak, and once I have official results, I will be happy to post them.

As for height, he is being measured as 16h. I dont have cannon bone measurements, can try to get that info for you.
Remember, this horse has never before been marketed as a breeding stallion, so all this info is not readily available.
So please give us a chance, I am passing on the info to you as fast as it becomes available.

I dont really think that too many people are on the fence about breeding to him- either they will, or they wont. Thanks for your patience, Ingrid

[RiddleMeThis]

In general , how are you supposed to have stallion mothers if they are not feminine and exhibit proper gender expression? So a mare cant have a stallion foal if she doesnt look like a mare? Do you expect to get female gender expression from the stallion ? I certainly hope not. I dont expect gender expression from ANY horse. I expect GOOD if not GREAT conformation and ability. And none of that coinsides with her "looking like a mare."

How hard is to understand that mares need to look like mares ? Because they DONT need to look like mares.
I still can't believe we are even having this conversation.:lol:Then by all means dont.

[ShowjumpersUSA]

I dont really think that too many people are on the fence about breeding to him- either they will, or they wont. Thanks for your patience, Ingrid

Yes, I'm sure in many cases that's true. But for those breeders who are considering which mare might best suit him, the details regarding his correct height, conformation, temperament, rideability, etc., are important elements to factor in. Just as breeders often use a stallion to correct faults in a mare, likewise, mares are often used to correct faults in the stallion.

[TrueColours]

Ingrid - does a proper conformation shot exist of him anywhere? I dont believe that I have seen one at all. And what about movement shots?

Thanks! :)

[Bayhawk]

So a mare cant have a stallion foal if she doesnt look like a mare? I dont expect gender expression from ANY horse. I expect GOOD if not GREAT conformation and ability. And none of that coinsides with her "looking like a mare."

Because they DONT need to look like mares.:lol:Then by all means dont.

I guess the next thing you will say is that stallions don't need to showcase their gender expression ? I guess it's ok for you to have a stallion that looks or acts like a gelding or a mare ?

I think you are missing the point that all this is part of the whole package. I also think that you know very little about breeding when you make statements like "they don't need to look like mares" . By all means , ride your ugly horses......breed your ugly horses, I don't care !

[Fairview Horse Center]

RiddleMeThis, the "gender look" is one of the stupid things that the European registries breed for that has no athletic goal. Basically a color breeder type thing. It eliminates awesome horses from the gene pool because they won't win the gender type class. My stallion was turned down for lack of "stallion presence". In other words, I didn't lock him up for a week before his inspection, so he came out a snorting wild stallion. :rolleyes:

It is about marketing. People want a "pretty horse". Years ago, I was speaking to an owner of a large German breeding farm. I asked him which of his 2 year olds he preferred. He pointed out the pretty one. She was an average mover, lacking suspension and elasticity. The other one was a WOW mover, but did not have the most attractive head. The wow mover was the one out of the SPS dam though, and did sell as the highest price horse at the auction a few years later. :D

It is the same mentality that said the best athletes are made by live cover, and you knew you had a champion when the stallion especially enjoyed the cover. :lol:

The old rule when looking for dressage movement: The uglier the head, the better the mover. This is still valid, as the prettiest headed ones are the ones without the big suspension and elasticity.

The pretty head scores are one of the reasons that the Hanoverians lost almost all of their jumper lines.

Hard now to really get that feminine different look, as the stallions now too have feminine heads.

Here is feminine for you. Mother of 2 Olympic horses. :yes:

[Fairview Horse Center]

I guess the next thing you will say is that stallions don't need to showcase their gender expression ? I guess it's ok for you to have a stallion that looks or acts like a gelding or a mare ?


That is one of the most stupid European things of all, and has absolutely nothing to do with athleticism, genetic dominance, semen quality, or even herd leadership.

[Bayhawk]

That is one of the most stupid things of all, and has absolutely nothing to do with athleticism, genetic dominance, semen quality, or even herd leadership.

What is stupid is that you think stallion presence comes from being locked up in a stall. Stallion presence has NOTHING to do with being a fire breathing dragon.

Maybe you'll get educated one day and stop calling people stupid when you don't understand something.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Maybe you would like to point to the studies that have been done tying the feminine head, or stallion presence to athletic ability or genetic ability to pass along sporthorse qualities.

or do you just believe it because "they said so"?

and maybe you could inform us of the qualities that femininity or stallion presence passes along.

RiddleMeThis, spend some time with German men, and you will know extreme sexism is alive and well.

[ShowjumpersUSA]

That is one of the most stupid European things of all, and has absolutely nothing to do with athleticism, genetic dominance, semen quality, or even herd leadership.

Hmmmmm, those "stupid European things" have consistently produced some mighty amazing athletes over a long period of time.

Stallion presence is an intangible... something inborn, not aquired. Among other things, it is a nobility of spirit, often recognizable the minute the little guy stands up for the first time.

[RiddleMeThis]

I guess the next thing you will say is that stallions don't need to showcase their gender expression ? I guess it's ok for you to have a stallion that looks or acts like a gelding or a mare ? Yes and yes.

I think you are missing the point that all this is part of the whole package. Nope just saying that it shoulnt be/doesnt need to be. By all means , ride your ugly horses......breed your ugly horses, I don't care !Ugly because they dont look like mares?:lol:

[tri]

Come on you guys. I think some of you are just trying to pick a fight with no real reason other than some of you have gotten miffed.

Yes, I want stallions to have that stallion presence and it has nothing to do with being locked in a stall. You can see stallion presence in a stallion standing out in the middle of their pasture covered in mud. It SHINES out of them - king of kings.

And YES, I want mares to look like mares, be feminine and powerful with a deep dark eye and be able to jump around an int'l jump course.

Yes, that is breeding and please don't tell me you guys don't know the difference in a breeding registry and a performance registry. Don't you guys remember the last time you cried, "breed the best, ride the rest."?? Now, you are reversing that and act like you have never heard it.

This whole thread is plain stupid.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Hmmmmm, those "stupid European things" have consistently produced some mighty amazing athletes over a long period of time.

But that has nothing to do with stallion presence or femininity.

Stallion presence is an intangible... something inborn, not aquired. Among other things, it is a nobility of spirit, often recognizable the minute the little guy stands up for the first time.

Presence is definitely there in both mares, stallions, and yes, even geldings, but has nothing to do with their athletic ability. Presence may get some notice in dressage, or hunters, but will not keep thise rails up in jumpers, or add any speed. ;)

[RiddleMeThis]

Don't you guys remember the last time you cried, "breed the best, ride the rest."?? Now, you are reversing that and act like you have never heard it.
Im response to this IMO I personally am not. I still think its breed the best, however "gender expression' has nothing to do with "best" imo.

[ShowjumpersUSA]

Fairview, we may not be talking about the same thing. It is hard to find common ground when we're talking about two completely different types of horses and breeding philosophies.

[vineyridge]

But a filly gets one of her X chromosomes from her sire--specifically her sire's dam. That X might be the controlling one for sex characteeistic expression in the filly or it might not. So it is rather simplistic to say that a filly doesn't get her look from the stallion, because she has a 50-50 chance of doing so.

Excluding a mare from the breeding pool because she doesn't look "feminine" (by whose judgment, as that definition is ever changing), would be like excluding all flat chested women from the human breeding pool.

The Trakehner folks went down the road of breeding for beauty, and it's taken them years to recover sport horse excellence.

[ShowjumpersUSA]

The Trakehner folks went down the road of breeding for beauty, and it's taken them years to recover sport horse excellence.

Whoa.... who's breeding for beauty? No one does that, do they? I'm talking about breeding for the whole package.... not just one element.

[Fairview Horse Center]

So you have a mare that is phenominal in every way, except for she lacks femininity. You exclude her from the gene pool? Good think Luna was not in YOUR barn. :lol: :lol: :lol:

There are no perfect horses, and if I have to pick and choose characteristics that are important, femininity is way down on the list.

Where is the data that supports femininity or stallion presence as important in producing high quality athletes?

It is icing on the cake, just like color.

[ShowjumpersUSA]

I just received these photos in an email. Here's an example of the whole package. Stallion presence and a beautiful head. Holsteiner, Corrado I/Cassini I. (Kevin Babington's stallion)

[Fairview Horse Center]

You don't think that horse has a feminine head and eye?

[ShowjumpersUSA]

I think he has kind of an Araby looking head... very unusual for a Corrado baby. Yes, beautiful head and eye... but, in person, his stallion presence leaves no doubt as to his gender.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Here ya go - lack of stallion presence. :cool:

[ShowjumpersUSA]

Lovely head. Very nice looking but I would have to see him in person to know if he has stallion presence. You said the judges didn't see it in him and I usually tend to see what they see, often making the same judgments as my personal opinion... so....

As I alluded to in an earlier post, I don't think we are defining stallion presence the same way.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Lovely head. Very nice looking but I would have to see him in person to know if he has stallion presence. You said the judges didn't see it in him and I usually tend to see what they see, often making the same judgments as my personal opinion... so....

As I alluded to in an earlier post, I don't think we are defining stallion presence the same way.

The Belgian judges turned him down for lack of stallion presence, but as a foal, they said definite stallion prospect as he blew everyone way with his presence at his inspection. The Oldenburg inspecters had no problem with his stallion presence, but he needed a score of 140, and got 138.5 - highest of all the non licensed ones, but that is another story.

It will be exciting to see what Hickstead produces, and maybe that dose fee will ensure high quality mares for his first few crops.

[Dazednconfused]

So a mare cant have a stallion foal if she doesnt look like a mare? I dont expect gender expression from ANY horse. I expect GOOD if not GREAT conformation and ability. And none of that coinsides with her "looking like a mare."

Because they DONT need to look like mares.:lol:Then by all means dont.

And how many mares have YOU bred? ;)

Not only are there biological reasons for breeding for gender type but also is an important consideration in breeding and approvals.

[RiddleMeThis]

And how many mares have YOU bred? ;) None as I have said MANY times. But I AM a buyer ;)

Not only are there biological reasons for breeding for gender type but also is an important consideration in breeding and approvals.Would you like to post your sources stating that mares have to look like mares etc etc and that it is an important thing that is needed for producing sport horses?

[Bayhawk]

Don't you just love it when non breeders involve themselves in discussions concerning breeding ?

Unbelievable !

[RiddleMeThis]

Don't you just love it when non breeders involve themselves in discussions concerning breeding ?

Unbelievable !Ive said MANY MANY times that Im not a breeder, and had you asked I would have READILY given that info out.

And it seems that there are some breeders who agree with me as well.;)

[tom]

I actually like to hear what non-breeders think since I breed for sport and not for beauty pageants.

RiddleMeThis is raising some important questions.

This is my perspective:

In the TB world the number 1 criterion is speed. Nothing else matters (greatly). Breeders, trainers, and owners can discover fairly quickly if a stallion is going to be an important sire since the time lag between birth and sport is so short (2 years for flat racers). The same is true for broodmares although it obviously takes longer.

In the warmblood world there are as many number 1 criterions as there are breeders, trainers, riders, and owners. There is a long time lag between birth of the foal and when the horse can be truly found to be either a top-class athlete or a dud or something in between.

So in the warmblood world we look for "predictors" of success in sport such as loose-jumping ability, conformation, etc. Many of these "predictors" are not very accurate and most are asymmetric: they can rule out many horses but they do not accurately predict success in sport.

Since our "predictors" are so deficient, the time lag is so long, and the sport market is more limited than in racing for most warmbloods their job is not really to try to be top-level athletes but instead to be pleasure or amateur horses. And therefore the industry has developed a whole range of criteria that ii uses to assess and evaluate horses. Gender type is one. Is it a silly criterion for breeders, owners, riders, trainers looking to the top level of sport? Of course it is silly. And I have never seen evidence that it has any predictive value other than head conformation is highly heritable.

If a breeder is trying to breed horses for the top level of sport he or she would be foolish to give any weight to a criterion that has no association with success or failure in sport. Sex type is one of those criteria. But if a breeder is breeding for the amateur or pleasure market it is certainly true that a pretty horse (or in the British Isle, a colored horse) commands a premium price holding everything else constant.

[okggo]

This is actually kind of an interesting discussion. I went with a friend to a Hanoverian inspection where her mare scored very high but had low marks on her head for lacking femininity. She actually didn't have a bad head, it just didn't look as girly as the stallion SJUSA posted (and yes that studs head looks girly to me).

When I was looking at stallions for my mare (who was quite feminine) I was drawn to the words of an irish breeder "do you want to breed a performance horse or a halter horse/beauty contestant?" It was an easy answer for me, as I'm a rider and wanted a horse to show...performance! We chatted about breed bias (particularly Irish, the heads are "breed characteristic," big ears- but I think they are lovely, noble, expressive).

My guy is very masculine, and he does not have a cute girly araby head. He is 100% male and 100% Irish. Breed shows we absolutely got massacred. I could understand how if I bred him to sell, this would hurt my marketing b/c I had nothing to brag about but a bunch of last places b/c the judges found him too "coarse." Anyway, I have thick skin and pressed on. He is finally under saddle, and we are out of the beauty contests and into the performance world and our first dressage show we won the class against several WB, modern "pretty" horses, with great comments from the judge "cool horse." I really understand what the Irish breeder was telling me now. My guy was bred to perform, to JUMP, to excel under saddle. It is in those traits where he will shine and where he is (already) winning over the ones who cleaned up in the halter classes.

I have no problem with the total package, but to not breed a wonderful performance mare b/c she isn't feminine is absolutely silly. And it's also interesting to me that the stallions seem to be bred for femininity in look as well. Look at Clover Hill. King of Diamonds. Those are masculine if you really want to breed for gender traits, not the araby little dished heads. http://www.manufortifarms.com/famousirishdraughthorses.htm Anyway, I can absolutely understand why breeders wanting to sell weanlings go for pretty. That is what wins the WB inspections and they sell. I can't fault that logic at all (from a breeders perspective). But I do think the system (inspections) are flawed when lack of a "girly head" kicks a filly with far superior movement to 2nd place. This is so similar to what another poster said, no different then pushing her to 2nd place b/c she is bay or lacking chrome.

[bloomingtonfarm]

With a per dose fee of close to 4000€ (I assume 8 straws, but somehow think it might be less), no stock on the ground and no indication of semen quality, I'd give this a wide birth.

Hickstead was presented as a three years old to the NRPS registry because he was small and had a lot of Thoroughbred blood. Other registry would not have accepted him. At that point her owner could see how unique and talented Hickstead was but he was sold as a six year old because he was only breeding perhaps 40 mares a year.

So Hickstead has some offspring on the ground thatmust be 6- 7 years old now. Of course at that time he was not what he is today and with this registry I doubted that very nice mares was brought to him but still it would be interesting to see the quality of theses foals and how they have developped.

[andy.smaga]

To use Tri perspective, the buyer is the client. The breeder is the manufacturer and he need to have a product that satisfy the client.

We all know , there are two major type of clients, the ones aiming at the top of the sport, and the majority aiming at having a good time with their horses.

The different elements of a horse are not valued the same by those two groups, for example it's evident that beauty will rank low for the first group and high with the second, and many other elements will be in different places from one group to the other.

Lets look at the breeder who wants to reach the top level, he need to satisfy those 2 target groups that have opposite needs, because when they aim at the top, not all horses produced will fit the bill, and those horses need to be able to satisfy the second group of customers, in order to allow the breeder to stay in business.

The breeder who aim at the second group have a much easier task because he knows the priority list of his clients (hopefully).

In an ideal world, breeders would only breed animals with the highest performance and very beautiful.

Problem is that often the highest performers are not the best looking.

Then, it's the breeder's responsibility to make the final choice, because he will have to live with the consequences of his choice.

Not an easy task, same as any business.

[Aven]

Hickstead is not a Holsteiner. He is short of the minimum height requirements. So approve him Holsteiner anyway ? Theodore O'Connor was not a Holsteiner and would not have met the minimum height requirements. Even though he was successful at the top of the sport.......should he be approved Holsteiner as well ? Same difference.
<snip>


See this is what gets me. What is the purpose of a holsteiner? Its like people who breed dogs just for conformation.. forgetting the purpose of the breed. If a horse (or dog) can get the job done, and done better than 99.9% of its peers.. then YES that should matter!

I do understand about height guidelines. You don't want your breed all of a sudden full of near ponies-chances are they won't be able to do what your breed is supposed too. But if a specimen of such brilliance shows up that can do what many of his top peer can't... but is a bit shorter.. then yes grasp it. Why toss those genes away into someone else's gene pool? Is not the purpose of holstein breeders to produce ridable, sound, top caliber sport horses? I am missing something here?

Perhaps he will be presented and be approved.. and end the debate.

And just because a stallion is approved-no one forces people to breed their mares to him.

[ShowjumpersUSA]

When you post these kinds of posts, Tom, I have to step outside my roll as a Holsteiner breeder to try to understand your point of view. I remind myself you don't breed holsteiners and have no interest in, nor respect for, their "silly" criterion. However, you lump breeders in with the owners, riders and trainers. this confuses the issue. The reality is, breeders must have a different mindset in order to be consistent in their production of horses for breeding and/or sport. This makes it easier for riders and trainers to know where to go to find the good horses.

Whether one is a Holsteiner breeder or a sporthorse breeder with no particular preference for any one breed of horse, I think it's safe to say everyone would prefer to have an attractive horse. Putting the whole package together takes considerable knowledge of both mare and stallion, including the production history of their families. The "predictors" you speak of have more value when you can look at them knowing what is behind in terms of current and past family performance history.

Not all approved stallions have a beautiful head, i.e., Lord. When considering a stallion with a similar "fault," an experienced breeder would be cognizant of this fact and careful when selecting a mare to choose one who has a lovely head herself. Hoping, of course, to influence, in a positive way, the shape and/or size of the offspring's head.

Interestingly, the mare we had such a heated discussion about a week or two ago has a Lord head. Lovely mare and very accomplished in sport as well as having produced an approved stallion and other good sporthorses.... Her Lord head would influence me in my stallion selection for her. I would want to breed her to a stallion who not only has the jump, etc. that I'm wanting in a sporthorse, but he must also be known to transmit a lovely head. It's not so hard to do when one has hundreds of stallions to choose from within their own registry, as does the Holsteiner Verband.

None of this is important if one is planning to breed for a future sporthorse gelding, regardless of level. Simply from a sales point of view, it is much easier to sell an attractive horse. When horses get to the upper levels, it doesn't matter what they look like.

Here's the rub... most of us never produce that World Cup horse, but we keep trying. We have to try to do the best we know how, understanding we will probably be producing a good horse who will be sold to an average or above rider who would like the horse to be attractive.

Generally speaking, anyone who breeds Holsteiners breeds for the top of the sport or they would be breeding some other type of horse. There aren't that many horses at the top of the sport, therefore, everything is done with an eye on the market.

I don't expect everyone to see it my way. It is the Holsteiner way of horse breeding and not everyone's cup of tea. It requires focus, discipline and determination to not give in to the lure of the new stallion on the block. Random breeding decisions are frowned upon and often end up being costly mistakes. (I consider anything unknown to be "random")

My focus is on breeding stock that can also go into sport. When I have bought horses in Germany, the first question the breeder asks is, "Do you want this horse for sport or for breeding?" There really is a difference. A sporthorse is just that... a horse bred for breeding can often have a career as a sporthorse and, later, a career as a broodmare or breeding stallion.

[ShowjumpersUSA]

See this is what gets me. What is the purpose of a holsteiner?

if a specimen of such brilliance shows up that can do what many of his top peer can't... but is a bit shorter.. then yes grasp it. Why toss those genes away into someone else's gene pool? Is not the purpose of holstein breeders to produce ridable, sound, top caliber sport horses? I am missing something here?

No, you're not missing anything. This is exactly what Holsteiners do, except for the shorter part. They excel at the top of the sport and give their genes to someone else's gene pool. Several someone else's.

[ShowjumpersUSA]

Andy, I agree with your post and gave my similar point of view before I read yours... mine's a little wordy... took me forever to write it! Didn't mean to be redundant.

Bonnie

[Sakura Hill Farm]

I am posting for my friend Ingrid to address some questions raised on this thread.
Paperwork for the approval of Hickstead by several registries is pending and he will be inspected by them in a few weeks prior to being frozen in Florida. At that time, official measurements (height, cannon bone, etc.)will be taken and made available upon inquiry. Conformation photos will also be taken and will be available.
She herself is the person to whom inquiries should be addressed. Because of the Christmas season, she is extremely busy with her other jobs as musician and as mother. As soon as more information is forthcoming, she will make it available.

[Dinah-do]

I love the comment on gender type as no one loves a beautiful brood mare more than I. Gender type is, IMO, part of evaluating all breeding stock and is valued in assesing breeding stock but perhpas not performance stock. Look at write ups on foxhounds. Breeders aspire to have it all. Stallion type is easy to see when you have it in front of you and not so easy when none of the stallions that day really show it. It is not a screaming rearing stallion but more of a certain awareness of a breeding stallion. I remember seeing Hickstead a couple of years ago and I had to ask my friend "which one?" as he was lost in the warmup ring that day - so many other nice horses. I dont think Cumano would be lost.

Mares are a bit different - gender type is so much more than a pretty head although a pretty head is always nice, The soft eye, quality of front end, attitude. Some people like to see a little length in the body "room for a foal" and good breeding conformation. I would guess gender type is more of overall quality. TB breeders will often say a good race mare is too masculine to be good mother - like a lot of things in horses not really proven but buried in the brains of broodmare managers. Genuine Risk was feminine but a failure at stud. Nothing is for sure. Years ago I had a danish mare in the barn - she was big and plainish with big ears. She was so kind and the best mother. She herself was not a super great show horse but useful. She had wonderful foals and there was always a line up of breeders to lease her or buy her fillies. Gender type is very subjective . JMO

[grayarabpony]

Don't you just love it when non breeders involve themselves in discussions concerning breeding ?

Unbelievable !

Reece, who do you think most breeders are breeding for? It's RIDERS. People who have been around horses all of their lives.

[grayarabpony]

Genuine Risk was feminine but a failure at stud.

Genuine Risk is not a good example, really -- she kept slipping foals and only managed to have 2. Although you're right, she certainly was a failure as a racing broodmare.

What's the old saying? -- Pretty is as pretty does.

[ShowjumpersUSA]

Reece, who do you think most breeders are breeding for? It's RIDERS. People who have been around horses all of their lives.

Occassionally :winkgrin:, some of us tend to let our frustration get the best of us. Riders have their very own verancular, as do breeders. I think we sometimes get out of sorts when we try to communicate here because we assume we are all close to being on the same page and speaking the same language. If we want to learn from each other, we're all (including me!! :eek:) going to have to excercise a little more patience.

[grayarabpony]

Occassionally :winkgrin:, some of us tend to let our frustration get the best of us. Riders have their very own verancular, as do breeders. I think we sometimes get out of sorts when we try to communicate here because we assume we are all close to being on the same page and speaking the same language. If we want to learn from each other, we're all (including me!! :eek:) going to have to excercise a little more patience.

Well said.

[Bayhawk]

I actually like to hear what non-breeders think since I breed for sport and not for beauty pageants.

RiddleMeThis is raising some important questions.

This is my perspective:

In the TB world the number 1 criterion is speed. Nothing else matters (greatly). Breeders, trainers, and owners can discover fairly quickly if a stallion is going to be an important sire since the time lag between birth and sport is so short (2 years for flat racers). The same is true for broodmares although it obviously takes longer.

In the warmblood world there are as many number 1 criterions as there are breeders, trainers, riders, and owners. There is a long time lag between birth of the foal and when the horse can be truly found to be either a top-class athlete or a dud or something in between.

So in the warmblood world we look for "predictors" of success in sport such as loose-jumping ability, conformation, etc. Many of these "predictors" are not very accurate and most are asymmetric: they can rule out many horses but they do not accurately predict success in sport.

Since our "predictors" are so deficient, the time lag is so long, and the sport market is more limited than in racing for most warmbloods their job is not really to try to be top-level athletes but instead to be pleasure or amateur horses. And therefore the industry has developed a whole range of criteria that ii uses to assess and evaluate horses. Gender type is one. Is it a silly criterion for breeders, owners, riders, trainers looking to the top level of sport? Of course it is silly. And I have never seen evidence that it has any predictive value other than head conformation is highly heritable.

If a breeder is trying to breed horses for the top level of sport he or she would be foolish to give any weight to a criterion that has no association with success or failure in sport. Sex type is one of those criteria. But if a breeder is breeding for the amateur or pleasure market it is certainly true that a pretty horse (or in the British Isle, a colored horse) commands a premium price holding everything else constant.

Who ever said anyone was breeding for beauty pageants ? Last time I checked around the world there were breeding stock inspections and not sporthorse inspections. Sporthorses are judged in the show ring and breeding stock is judged seperately with a big emphasis being put on type and conformation. Various studbooks are trying to breed atheletic , beautiful and modern breeding horses , hence a big concentration on type and gender expression.

That mare that is not attractive , somewhat incorrect but that can jump the moon is put into sport and seldom bred.

Sporthorses will continue to come .......the breeding horses are more carefully selected.

[stolensilver]

I don't understand where "breeding horses are more carefully selected" comes from? A recent magazine article described a seminar with Ullrich Kasselmann. He is looking for competitive dressage horses. Quote: "Every year we buy 30 foals and also breed 150 foals- in a good year 80% stay on for training and we then select them again at the age of3 when they are ready to be backed and ridden depending on their maturity."

How many breeders select their breeding stock from 180 foals a year that they own? Yet this top dressage producer does this every year searching for that one outstanding individual. Finding a top sports horse is very, very hard!

[Bayhawk]

Out of 99 Holsteiner stallions selected for the approvals this year in Nuemunster , 53 were from premium mothers , so a little better than half.

Out of those 99 stallions , 30 were approved. Out of those 30 approved , a WHOPPING 23 were from premium mothers !

Take from it what you will.........

[omare]

JUst curious-how are the holst mares that jump the moon but are not pretty compare to the 39 bonit breeding mares? Has the holst breeders always taken this approach or is it more of a trend of the last 10 years or so where a pretty horse has been found to be easier to sell/market? Are all holsteiner mares that jump in sport the breeding culls-that is, will you never find a sporthorse mare that is also considered a future breeding horse?

[okggo]

Bayhawk, that would mean more with the rest of the story. Were the other mares not approved? Presented but denied (and if so on what grounds)? Performance mares? I'm betting they weren't top performance horses.

Edited to add, I think the standard for sport should be the standard for breeding, if you are breeding for sport. This actually resembles a lot of what I see around here, dams that have done nothing but breed. I'd rather see a dam with a performance record, then a pasture puff. If I was going to spend top dollar on a foal, I'd want the one with proven lines on both sides. Frankly, I'd buy from Tom in a heartbeat, funds permitting.

[Bayhawk]

JUst curious-how are the holst mares that jump the moon but are not pretty compare to the 39 bonit breeding mares? Has the holst breeders always taken this approach or is it more of a trend of the last 10 years or so where a pretty horse has been found to be easier to sell/market? Are all holsteiner mares that jump in sport the breeding culls-that is, will you never find a sporthorse mare that is also considered a future breeding horse?

I don't know a single breeder with a 39 point breeding mare. Of course........the ultimate goal is to have a sporthorse and a breeding horse in the same animal.

Why do you think there are many breeders mares now that have 3 & 4 HSP mares in a row in their stamm now. They have selected top breeding fillies , with great types , conf. , movement and athletic ability.

[omare]

thanks for the clarification

[Bayhawk]

Bayhawk, that would mean more with the rest of the story. Were the other mares not approved? Presented but denied (and if so on what grounds)? Performance mares? I'm betting they weren't top performance horses.

Edited to add, I think the standard for sport should be the standard for breeding, if you are breeding for sport. This actually resembles a lot of what I see around here, dams that have done nothing but breed. I'd rather see a dam with a performance record, then a pasture puff. If I was going to spend top dollar on a foal, I'd want the one with proven lines on both sides. Frankly, I'd buy from Tom in a heartbeat, funds permitting.

I wasn't talking about mares being approved.

Good for you that you would buy from Tom if you had money. Tom has purchased some good mares for his future breeding. I prefer to buy for myself from the breeders that have bred their own mares for breeding and know them intimately over generations and have been taught by their fathers and grandfathers. Just my opinion.....

Most of the top producing mares have never seen a show ring. On the other hand , some top show mares like Ratina have been a disappointment in the breeding shed.

You must know the family you're breeding from to make the best choices.

[okggo]

Reece,
I don't know your philosophies, so I can say if I would (or would not) be a potential client. But I think Tom makes sense and presents it well, and shows that it is working. All I've gleaned besides that from this thread are random comments from hols breeders about "looking like a mare" and so on. For those of us that ride, and want a performer, that doesn't come across right- although I'm 150% sure you aim for more than that, but the priorities just aren't coming across right over the web.

I see a lot of performance mares being used (and high dollar spent) in embryo transfer breedings. That whole era seems it should be eventually be doing away with the "breed OR perform" mentality and that a good broodmare will need to do more than produce babies for a living. I guess we arent' there yet, given the cost prohibitive nature of it...but it does open up some interesting doors.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Out of 99 Holsteiner stallions selected for the approvals this year in Nuemunster , 53 were from premium mothers , so a little better than half.

Out of those 99 stallions , 30 were approved. Out of those 30 approved , a WHOPPING 23 were from premium mothers !

Take from it what you will.........

I don't thnk that is surprising at all, when we have heard from many of the verbands that a stallion prospect will be looked more favorably upon if he is out of a Premium mare. That is who they INTEND to choose for approval. They start out with "brownie points", so what is the shock?

[bloomingtonfarm]

Who ever said anyone was breeding for beauty pageants ? Last time I checked around the world there were breeding stock inspections and not sporthorse inspections. Sporthorses are judged in the show ring and breeding stock is judged seperately with a big emphasis being put on type and conformation. Various studbooks are trying to breed atheletic , beautiful and modern breeding horses , hence a big concentration on type and gender expression.

That mare that is not attractive , somewhat incorrect but that can jump the moon is put into sport and seldom bred.

Sporthorses will continue to come .......the breeding horses are more carefully selected.


No difference should exist between ' breeding stock inspections and sporthorse inspections'

I thrust the registry I use, to be there in order to help breeder to produce the best sporthorses possible and the use of the Keuring is to try to identify the most useful and correct foal that will be able to perform at the highest level of sport . Not the cutest one.

Of course, same qualities on conformation and movement, give the pretty face First Place but it would be a shame to place him or her first in front of a less prettier but better put together foal.

But I am sure it is what you meant.

[tri]

The Belgian judges turned him down for lack of stallion presence,

Fairview, you know that is not the ONLY reason he was turned down. It was just one of the reasons.

You guys act like there are a ton of mares and stallions out there that are perfect in every way except lacking either stallion presence or femininity and therefor are turned down for that one and only reason.

It is just a criteria that is judged. It isn't usually a dealbreaker and if that is what you think the sole reason is, it just means you stopped listening to the others.

[okggo]

Fairview, you know that is not the ONLY reason he was turned down. It was just one of the reasons.

You guys act like there are a ton of mares and stallions out there that are perfect in every way except lacking either stallion presence or femininity and therefor are turned down for that one and only reason.

It is just a criteria that is judged. It isn't usually a dealbreaker and if that is what you think the sole reason is, it just means you stopped listening to the others.


The mare I was talking about was actually a much nicer quality and her scores on "Head" placed her below horses not even in the same ball park of her movement. My guy, at BREED shows, was also placed lower b/c of head/coarseness despite high marks in conformation and movement. So it can in fact place a pretty horse above a more talented one. And that, I think, is a flaw.

Edited to add, echoing the other poster, if both horses are equal, but one is more feminine, then by all means place that one first!

[ShowjumpersUSA]

No difference should exist between ' breeding stock inspections and sporthorse inspections'

I thrust the registry I use, to be there in order to help breeder to produce the best sporthorses possible and the use of the Keuring is to try to identify the most useful and correct foal that will be able to perform at the highest level of sport . Not the cutest one.

Of course, same qualities on conformation and movement, give the pretty face First Place but it would be a shame to place him or her first in front of a less prettier but better put together foal.

But I am sure it is what you meant.

Suzanne

There are no sporthorse approvals/inspections. The sporthorse proves himself/herself in the show ring.

Approvals are for breeding stock. Foals are judged only on their type and movement... on that particular day.

[Bayhawk]

No difference should exist between ' breeding stock inspections and sporthorse inspections'

I thrust the registry I use, to be there in order to help breeder to produce the best sporthorses possible and the use of the Keuring is to try to identify the most useful and correct foal that will be able to perform at the highest level of sport . Not the cutest one.

Of course, same qualities on conformation and movement, give the pretty face First Place but it would be a shame to place him or her first in front of a less prettier but better put together foal.

But I am sure it is what you meant.

Suzanne

evidently you haven't been to BREEDING STOCK INSPECTIONS when the judge asks the crowd "Is this filly or colt a good candidate for sport or breeding " ?

[okggo]

SJ....so foals are judged based on their ability to be bred? Not their ability to compete in sport? I thought the different registries came about b/c of wanting different types for sport?

By that logic, all WBs are bred for breeding and sport is just a lucky fluke or byproduct. I think it is the way the words are coming across, but that just plain does not make sense.

[tri]

The mare I was talking about was actually a much nicer quality and her scores on "Head" placed her below horses not even in the same ball park of her movement. My guy, at BREED shows, was also placed lower b/c of head/coarseness despite high marks in conformation and movement.

I was referring to approvals not breed shows.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Quote:
The Belgian judges turned him down for lack of stallion presence,
Fairview, you know that is not the ONLY reason he was turned down. It was just one of the reasons.


I was given 2 reasons, lack of stallion presence, and they were concerned with how he would cross with the US marebase because he is lighter in the body. They said they would have licensed him in Belgium, as he was the type to cross well with their marebase, so I guess his "lack of stallion presence" would not have been a factor there.

He has actually proven to be a super cross for the TB mare base, so their loss.

[mikali]

Ingrid - does a proper conformation shot exist of him anywhere? I dont believe that I have seen one at all. And what about movement shots?

Thanks! :)

If you take a look at the stephex website, you'll see a handful of pictures of Hickstead with a conformation shot taken in Calgary this September.

http://www.stephex.com/_photo-db/_horses/1227788288Hickstead-CALG08S0419.jpg

[okggo]

I was referring to approvals not breed shows.

The mare was at hanoverian WB approvals

[Bayhawk]

Reece,
I don't know your philosophies, so I can say if I would (or would not) be a potential client. But I think Tom makes sense and presents it well, and shows that it is working. All I've gleaned besides that from this thread are random comments from hols breeders about "looking like a mare" and so on. For those of us that ride, and want a performer, that doesn't come across right- although I'm 150% sure you aim for more than that, but the priorities just aren't coming across right over the web.

I see a lot of performance mares being used (and high dollar spent) in embryo transfer breedings. That whole era seems it should be eventually be doing away with the "breed OR perform" mentality and that a good broodmare will need to do more than produce babies for a living. I guess we arent' there yet, given the cost prohibitive nature of it...but it does open up some interesting doors.

Thanks for your comments and I think you are right about web sentiment. It's hard to get across sometimes. I think it's a matter of just knowing after having experience with it in Europe. It's hard to explain how you've learned or just know something.

I just try to relay what I've learned because it was done to me many years ago and on thru today and I think it's important. I'm not trying to entice clients as I have more than I can currently deal with for horses in Germany. After this spring , I will be managing at least 50 horses in Holstein and it's becoming a little overwhelming. It's not really what I wanted to do but it has evolved in that direction. I am trying to help others while my stock is growing up but when they reach maturity I will be less inclined to do so.

I will respectfully dis-agree with your statement about broodmares needing to do more than have babies for a living. I said in an earlier post that a majority of the best producing mares in Holstein have never seen the showring and I don't think that will ever change. They have such a dominant jumping gene integrated in their herd that the good mares are way more valuable breeding than showing.

[bloomingtonfarm]

There are no sporthorse approvals/inspections. The sporthorse proves himself/herself in the show ring.

Approvals are for breeding stock. Foals are judged only on their type and movement... on that particular day.


This is what I meant... The keurings, foal inspections, stallions approval, mare predicates... all this has to be for one reason...to get organize to produce the best jumper or dressage horses. The ''Sporthorse inspections' was a funny way to name the '' Horse Show' which is the ultimate 'inspection' since it is where we want our horses to prove themselves.

And Bayhawk, no, I haven't been to BREEDING STOCK INSPECTIONS where the judge asks the crowd "Is this filly or colt a good candidate for sport or breeding "

Maybe they meant that this filly was not good enough for breeding because she had some flaws that you did not want to reproduce. It does not mean that you should send her to the meat market. Not being cute is not a flaw, it is a lack of quality that is only aesthetic.

[okggo]

Bayhawk, why not both? Mares can produce more than one foal per year via ET. If the mare is that valuable for breeding, why risk potential losing her to breeding complications?

Again, I'm assuming it is the costs, but I'm thinking high dollar horses here, so really the extra cost to do ET shouldn't be that much of an issue. Or is it a nursemare thing?

[Bayhawk]

Bayhawk, why not both? Mares can produce more than one foal per year via ET. If the mare is that valuable for breeding, why risk potential losing her to breeding complications?

Again, I'm assuming it is the costs, but I'm thinking high dollar horses here, so really the extra cost to do ET shouldn't be that much of an issue. Or is it a nursemare thing?

90% of Holstein breeders don't use frozen and don't do ET. This is why the mares are used for breeding and when she falls, there is more than likely daughter(s) to carry on the stamm.

[Bayhawk]

This is what I meant... The keurings, foal inspections, stallions approval, mare predicates... all this has to be for one reason...to get organize to produce the best jumper or dressage horses. The ''Sporthorse inspections' was a funny way to name the '' Horse Show' which is the ultimate 'inspection' since it is where we want our horses to prove themselves.

And Bayhawk, no, I haven't been to BREEDING STOCK INSPECTIONS where the judge asks the crowd "Is this filly or colt a good candidate for sport or breeding "

Maybe they meant that this filly was not good enough for breeding because she had some flaws that you did not want to reproduce. It does not mean that you should send her to the meat market. Not being cute is not a flaw, it is a lack of quality that is only aesthetic.

Who said anything about sending a horse to the meat market. The judge is simply relaying that this particular horse doesn't have good enough type , conf , movement etc. to breed with and should go into sport. Just because it has flaws deosn't mean it can't win the Olympics but it shouldn't be bred and this is the fundamental difference in mindset from American breeders and European breeders. Just because Hickstead won the Olympics doesn't automatically mean you want to breed with him and inject his type into your mare herd.

[vineyridge]

I think some people are playing word games. It's admitted, isn't it, that performance as a sport horse doesn't automatically translate to breeding approval. So trying to make a point that sport horses aren't inspected and approved (I'm assuming the poster left out 'for sport') is a red herring.

What I think we are all trying to get at is what qualities in the sire and dam are likely to produce performers, since no one would go into breeding just to breed breeders. Or would they? That's the AKC model for dogs, and being able to perform in the field is dying in many AKC breeds. The Border Collie and JRT people fought tooth and nail to keep their breeds out of the AKC because, to them, performance was more important than meeting a "beauty standard".

[TrueColours]

Thanks mikali! :)

And to steer this topic BACK to Hickstead once again ... here is another link that will show more Hickstead photos as well from the same site:

http://www.stephex.com/2007/_html/main.php?taal=en&&page=paarden&&deel=ref&&id=0079

[ShowjumpersUSA]

Originally Posted by bloomingtonfarm http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=3714827#post3714827)
No difference should exist between ' breeding stock inspections and sporthorse inspections'

To which I replied, "There are no sporthorse approvals/inspections. The sporthorse proves himself/herself in the show ring."

To which you then responded:

[quote=bloomingtonfarm;3714966]This is what I meant... The keurings, foal inspections, stallions approval, mare predicates... all this has to be for one reason...to get organize to produce the best jumper or dressage horses. The ''Sporthorse inspections' was a funny way to name the '' Horse Show' which is the ultimate 'inspection' since it is where we want our horses to prove themselves. quote]

I'm not usually accused of being entirely dense, but you've lost me here... You are the one talking about "Sporthorse inspections" that was you're attempt at humor... what you meant to say was "Horse show?"

So, the sentence would read.. "No difference should exist between breeding stock inspections and horse shows?"

This is what I think... those people who are sincerely interested in learning about different breeding philosophies are learning something from Tom, Reece and perhaps, on occasion, even me and a few others.

Railing against a breeding philosophy that has proven itself over and over again at the highest levels makes no sense to me. The philosophy I am talking about was developed over a long period of years by the Holsteiner Verband.

I can't help but think of my daughter when she was a beginning rider. She just couldn't keep her mouth zipped long enough to learn anything. Ronnie Mutch and Jack Towell would try to tell her to keep her heels down... all the while she is insisting she has a better way and can accomplish the same thing doing it her own way.... Oh, to have a teachable child!

Needless to say, after a few mistakes and tumbles to the ground, she stopped resisting and started learning. She went on to ride with Laura Kraut and even got some nice ribbons along the way. This was many years ago... but, this conversation puts me in mind of those days.

All that to say you have to decide what your goals are and read the rule books and other reference material relating to the KWPN philosophy, Zangersheide, The Holsteiner Verband, RPSI, Oldenburg, Hann., etc. Decide where your interests are and which registry best fits your needs. Then try to learn all you can about the history of their horses... not their organizational skills.... learn about the mare families in your chosen registry.

For us to try to teach anyone here anything is a lost cause. Many of you want to go the wide and winding road..... that's fine. To quote Robert Frost (and borrow Fairview's slogan), "I took the one less traveled by, and it has made all the difference."

[ThreeDays]

I think some of the essential points some of the breeders on the thread are trying to convey in short replies is that there is much more that goes into breeding when one is concerned about preserving and protecting a particular 'breed' and at the same time breeding for superior athletes.

The whole debate over Hickstead and 'feminine' mares is coming from the mouths of serious breeders who choose to breed within the restraints of standards set forth by a specific 'breed' and specific 'sport'.

This conversation originated over the disappointment felt by Holsteiner breeders here in the US that the US based Holsteiner breed registry chose to approve a stallion based on performance successes which was not inclusive of breeding standards.

As stated multiple times on this thread - performance accolades are not the only criteria for which breeding stallions are selected. More must be considered when talking about the production of a specific breed.

There are valid concerns in reference to pedigree, body type and conformation standards that question the eligibility and inclusion of this stallion for the Holsteiner studbook.

The stallions which make up the studbook here or in Germany must be representatives of the breed in type and/or pedigree. Multiple examples of other superior athletes not given breeding privileges have been discussed for this very point.

Discussions about whether or not this stallion is a progenitor of his athletic abilities is not the point. The point is that if a horse (mare or stallion) is approved as breeding stock - it must be in line with the intentions of the 'breed' in question not just saying - well here's a good one - what about him?

For anyone who has bred a half bred (thoroughbred cross) then you will know first hand how much can change in one generation of breeding. The foal no longer looks like it's WB parent nor does it look like it's TB parent. It has morphed and changed. Given the opportunity to do it again generationally - you can make the type change again more toward the WB or TB. This is the concern about allowing the wrong 'type' of breeding stallion access to a breed registry that he clearly is not representative of. They don't want to see the breed type morphed by a poorly selected stallion and hell - if there was more than one like this apporved and you bred the worng type again - where would you be?

Now if we were talking about a sporthorse registry you wouldn't get getting such a mouthful. ;)

[tri]

Well said.

[Go Fish]

Don't you just love it when non breeders involve themselves in discussions concerning breeding ?

Unbelievable !

This is an arrogant statement...who do you think buys your horses????

[DMK]

Don't you just love it when non breeders involve themselves in discussions concerning breeding ?

Unbelievable !

Based on this statement, I vote you have a real future as the head of one of the Big 3. Times are uncertain, so it might be a short career, but you do have the star quality that got them where they are today!

Do breeders make good money selling your product amongst yourselves? Or do the little people have to fork out some $$$ occasionally? Pity, that.

[3Dogs]

3Days - yours is one of the more articulate posts I have read throughout this slug fest. Thank you -

And I want Hail Yeah or whatever his name is :lol:

[RiddleMeThis]

Was going to quote a bunch of people, but I think it will be just easier to write out everything then quote and split it up into parts. Its basically going to address the "Sporthorse or breeding?" for horses.

IMO It should and almost HAS to be both, and because of that you cannot and should not let something as silly as "looking like a transvestite" get in your way. If you start breeding two different types, one just for sport and one just for breeding how do you PROVE your breeding stock is WORTH breeding? The 100 (or 70 and 30 day test) day test? Is that how breeders should evaluate their breeding stock?

If the goal of a registry or breed is to create world/Olympic class horses then that should be the focus, and if a mare or stallion shows exceptional talent they should not be placed lower than a mare or stallion that is of lesser quality but more mare like or more stallion like. To do that (punish the higher quality for not being "pretty") completely undermines the goal to produce the world class sport horses.

[grayarabpony]

I think some of the essential points some of the breeders on the thread are trying to convey in short replies is that there is much more that goes into breeding when one is concerned about preserving and protecting a particular 'breed' and at the same time breeding for superior athletes.

The whole debate over Hickstead and 'feminine' mares is coming from the mouths of serious breeders who choose to breed within the restraints of standards set forth by a specific 'breed' and specific 'sport'.

This conversation originated over the disappointment felt by Holsteiner breeders here in the US that the US based Holsteiner breed registry chose to approve a stallion based on performance successes which was not inclusive of breeding standards.

As stated multiple times on this thread - performance accolades are not the only criteria for which breeding stallions are selected. More must be considered when talking about the production of a specific breed.

There are valid concerns in reference to pedigree, body type and conformation standards that question the eligibility and inclusion of this stallion for the Holsteiner studbook.

The stallions which make up the studbook here or in Germany must be representatives of the breed in type and/or pedigree. Multiple examples of other superior athletes not given breeding privileges have been discussed for this very point.

Discussions about whether or not this stallion is a progenitor of his athletic abilities is not the point. The point is that if a horse (mare or stallion) is approved as breeding stock - it must be in line with the intentions of the 'breed' in question not just saying - well here's a good one - what about him?

For anyone who has bred a half bred (thoroughbred cross) then you will know first hand how much can change in one generation of breeding. The foal no longer looks like it's WB parent nor does it look like it's TB parent. It has morphed and changed. Given the opportunity to do it again generationally - you can make the type change again more toward the WB or TB. This is the concern about allowing the wrong 'type' of breeding stallion access to a breed registry that he clearly is not representative of. They don't want to see the breed type morphed by a poorly selected stallion and hell - if there was more than one like this apporved and you bred the worng type again - where would you be?

Now if we were talking about a sporthorse registry you wouldn't get getting such a mouthful. ;)

The Holsteiner is a registry and not a breed. ShowjumpersUSA and bayhawk breed Holsteiners.

The European sportshorses are all about performance, and what will sell. Not so much about a look that's written down in a handbook somewhere.

I think Holsteiner is a registry -- or is it a religion??

[Dazednconfused]

Breed or gender type has nothing to do with 'pretty'. ;)

[tom]

ShowjumpersUSA, above in post 152 you stated:

"I remind myself you don't breed holsteiners and have no interest in, nor respect for, their "silly" criterion."

I ask you once again to re-read my posts on this and other threads. Remember my advocacy that you take reading comprehension seriously?

I do not criticize the Holsteiner Verband's criteria.

What I challenge is the faith-based approach to breeding that you, Bayhawk, and several others use.

Please do not equate your unconventional breeding philosophies with the Verband's.

And please do let me know when YOUR unique interpretation of the Verband's approach to breeding produces any sport horses from YOUR breeding program.

It would seem to me that if (a) the Verband's approach were truly the best, and (b) you were truly following the Verband's approach, that (c) there would be products of your and Bayhawk's breeding programs in sport, even from your first several crops.

There aren't.

I state again: the proof of the validity of your arguments and your unconventional breeding philosophy is in what you produce (and don't produce) and not the fervor with which you believe your own creed or dogma.

[tom]

I also need to challenge this notion that the "best" mares in Germany are always kept for breeding and the "lesser" mares are always used in sport.

When a breeder/seller asks if the mare is going to be used for sport or breeding it is a polite way of finding out; "How much money is the person willing to spend," and/or "Does the mare have to be competely sound" and/or "Do I need to not show any particular mare to this client because the mare has a problem (for example, she loose-jumps terribly or we started her under saddle and she is a big problem to ride)?".

Mares that are true prospects for top sport will also sell for much more money then mares that are true prospects for producing progeny that may have the potential for top sport.

So the notion that "the Germans" always use their "best" mares in breeding and always use their "lesser" mares in sport is not true. But it is a good cover for individuals who never produce a sport horse. They can say all their horses are "best" and are therefore used for breeding, and they would never use one of their "best" horse in sport -- they are "too valuable" to be used in sport. And since EVERYTHING they breed is so good there is never one of a lesser quality available to be put in sport.

Believe that and I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you!

That said, Bayhawk's statement:

"I said in an earlier post that a majority of the best producing mares in Holstein have never seen the showring and I don't think that will ever change. They have such a dominant jumping gene integrated in their herd that the good mares are way more valuable breeding than showing."

What Bayhawk says above is true. These proven broodmares are more valuable in breeding then in sport. But that evaluation was made retrospectively.

Now some individuals may try to convince you or others that it was known when she was a 3-year-old that the mare would be more valuable in breeding then in sport. But that is retrospective sensemaking and is not credible. The reality is that the farmer probably did not have the money to put the mare in sport, or the mare had to be protected at home to preserve his branch of the motherline from ending at his farm, etc.

[tri]

It would seem to me that if (a) the Verband's approach were truly the best, and (b) you were truly following the Verband's approach, that (c) there would be products of your and Bayhawk's breeding programs in sport, even from your first several crops.

I do have, from my first crop, an approved stallion/international showjumper that also won a stallion competition in the Netherlands; was 4th at the Zwolle International Show, 4th at the Dublin Horse Show, and Ireland's Indoor Champion as a 5-y-o; and jumping international 1.30 m as a 6-yo and international 1.40 m. as a 7-y-o (still a 7-y-o).

I do have, from my second crop, a gelding that is the 6y-o Millstreet Champion and represented Ireland at the WBFSH's 6-Y-O World Breeding Championship for Young Jumping Horses. (still a 6-y-o)

I do have, from my third crop, an approved stallion (two studbooks) that represented the Netherlands at the Zwolle International Show and won the Future Stallion Showjumping Championship (still a 5-y-o).

Tom, please keep in mind that we don't have anything even remotely resembling the Zwolle international stallion show here for any U.S. breeder to claim participation in of homebreds.

The closest we have is the Young Jumper series and it is segmented into 3 different regions and has only been around long enough (started 1999) for my 3rd generation to participate in as my 3rd generation is coming 5 years old. My previous jumpers - in their teens now - didn't have access to that program when they were 5/6/7 years old.

I don't breed within the holsteiner verband and don't have anything branded or approved holsteiner, but it is a bit off to keep asking for proof of something that there is absolutely no way to achieve on this side of the pond.

Its like us asking YOU, what horses you have that have done well in OUR Young Jumper series. I am sure it would also be a big fat zero.

I believe Showjumpers has had something homebred in the YJ 5 year old series though and, hopefully I will next year. Though if it doesn't stop raining, I'm never going to be able to get on and ride and it is making me quite cranky.

[grayarabpony]

Beautiful posts Tom, beautiful.... (wiping away tears) and yes, I am being entirely sincere.

Thank God a breeder said it because that's the only way it would have any "cred" on this board! Which is also funny.

[Cartier]

I also need to challenge this notion that the "best" mares in Germany are always kept for breeding and the "lesser" mares are always used in sport.

When a breeder/seller asks if the mare is going to be used for sport or breeding it is a polite way of finding out; "How much money is the person willing to spend," and/or "Does the mare have to be competely sound" and/or "Do I need to not show any particular mare to this client because the mare has a problem (for example, she loose-jumps terribly or we started her under saddle and she is a big problem to ride)?".

Mares that are true prospects for top sport will also sell for much more money then mares that are true prospects for producing progeny that may have the potential for top sport.

So the notion that "the Germans" always use their "best" mares in breeding and always use their "lesser" mares in sport is not true. But it is a good cover for individuals who never produce a sport horse. They can say all their horses are "best" and are therefore used for breeding, and they would never use one of their "best" horse in sport -- they are "too valuable" to be used in sport. And since EVERYTHING they breed is so good there is never one of a lesser quality available to be put in sport.

Believe that and I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you!

That said, Bayhawk's statement:

"I said in an earlier post that a majority of the best producing mares in Holstein have never seen the showring and I don't think that will ever change. They have such a dominant jumping gene integrated in their herd that the good mares are way more valuable breeding than showing."

What Bayhawk says above is true. These proven broodmares are more valuable in breeding then in sport. But that evaluation was made retrospectively.

Now some individuals may try to convince you or others that it was known when she was a 3-year-old that the mare would be more valuable in breeding then in sport. But that is retrospective sensemaking and is not credible. The reality is that the farmer probably did not have the money to put the mare in sport, or the mare had to be protected at home to preserve his branch of the motherline from ending at his farm, etc.



Glad we didn’t loose you in this dialogue Tom.

While many of us have cherished theories about breeding… and a few examples here and there, few of us do enough breeding to really know if our breeding theories are actually correct. Whether in canines or equines, we’re lucky if we have even half a dozen generations to observe first hand. Few of us ever breed in sufficient numbers to prove a theory one way or another. Possibly a breeder like Paul Schockemöhle, who reportedly has 700 broodmares, or Sylvia Hammerstrom in Giant Schnauzers (who has purportedly bred roughly 50,000 dogs in her 50 plus years of breeding) might have enough data for some conclusive rules and strategies… but I know of very few breeders who breed on so massive a scale. Seems to me that the value of the HV is that they have a clearly defined breeding strategy, with clearly defined goals… applied over a significant period of time, to a large breeding population, generating decades of data. Even if we do not breed Holsteiners, we can observe their program and come away with very useful information. That is not true of registries with no clear long term vision, who seem to jump from one phenotype to the next every year, chasing the next hot horse. Seems to me that the HV is looking to produce producers and other registries are looking to produce high priced horses/foals. One group is not necessarily better than the other; the goals are different, though both may produce excellent performance animals.

As for the comment that AKC conformation shows select for “pretty”… actually, that is not true for the most part. Except for the Toy Breeds (which for the most part have no function, so their Breed standards may indeed reflect “cute or pretty”), the selection at an AKC Conformation show is supposed to reflect the specimen that most nearly fits the ideal of the breed, and would be one who could do whatever the breed was intended to do with the greatest possibly efficiency, for the longest period of time. For example, the ideal Herding, Sporting or Working dog from our Conformation ring should be able to work more efficiently, for longer periods of time, with characteristics best suited for the breed’s original purpose, because it is the best example of the breed. That is not a beauty contest, it is an evaluation of structure and breed type. True, as someone else mentioned, it is not possible to identify certain Herding abilities in a Conformation (which is a valid objection for fans of those breeds), but for the most part the goal is to select the best breeding animal for the next generation.

Unfortunately, being mere humans, we screw up these evaluations with what is politely termed “politics.” Self interest sometimes plays a part in these subjective evaluations. Much like Inspectors at Registry approvals we’ve been to for AHA, GOV, RPSI and Old NA, look first to see who owns the entry, who bred it, the sire and the dam, BEFORE they evaluate the entry. It is not credible to believe that Inspection evaluations do not include deference to all the data that is in the inspectors possession, especially given that some inspectors have an ownership interest of some sort in the entry.

[stolensilver]

Cartier I guess the furore about pedigree dogs hasn't hit that side of the Atlantic yet?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7569064.stm

There was and is a great amount of feeling about keeping dogs such as the Border Collie and the Jack Russell terrier out of the KC because of the effect breeding for beauty has had on the character and health of the dogs. For example most sheepdogs are not Border Collies. They don't have KC pedigrees even though KC registered dogs are available. They are "working collies" and are from completely different lines. This makes perfect sense because the qualities needed to be a top farm dog are very different from looking beautiful in front of a judge on a manicured carpet! Already, even though the Border Collie has not been KC very long you can spot the difference between show dogs and working dogs. The show dogs have a much longer, thicker (and impractical!) coat for starters.

This seems completely logical to me. Breeders who test the value of their dogs by showing them will pick dogs who show well. Farmers who test their stock by training them as sheep dogs will pick good sheep dogs with good trainability, quick brains, reactiveness and immense athleticism. These dogs are also very high maintenance and can be neurotic. They don't make good pets. Isn't it obvious why a geniune farm bred Border Collie is going to be changed by the show ring and that breeding for the show ring will alter the nature of the dog so that in a very short period of time the show dogs will be unable to do the job (herding sheep) that the breed was actually developed for? It's a bit like breeding for jumping in horses, evaluating the conformation, but never actually asking the horse to jump. (I'm not saying anyone does that BTW!)

[tom]

Tri, as I said in other posts I am not asking for proof in the international ring of the validity of THEIR unconventional breeding philosophy. I'd be happy if THEY could show me a even a 1.10 m. horse that was produced from THEIR faith-based approach to breeding. You do have 3 foot 3 inch classes in the USA, don't you?

And they make a big deal that they are breeding Holsteiners in Germany. So I await their products at the Bundeschampionate. Or at a 1.10 m. local show in Germany.

And I am not asking you or anyone other than Bayhawk and ShowjumpersUSA for proof of the superiority of their breeding philosophy because I don't see you or anyone else claiming superiority with no proof to substantiate their claims.

Cartier, yes one needs some numbers but as I pointed out my first three crops were very similar in size to Bayhawk's first three crops. I do not know what ShowjumpersUSA's numbers are.

In any case, what I find incredible is the lack of doubt and the surfeit of certainty in their posts about their version of the Holsteiner way of breeding. But everyone knows how I feel and this is getting old.

[Cartier]

Cartier I guess the furore about pedigree dogs hasn't hit that side of the Atlantic yet?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7569064.stm

There was and is a great amount of feeling about keeping dogs such as the Border Collie and the Jack Russell terrier out of the KC because of the effect breeding for beauty has had on the character and health of the dogs. For example most sheepdogs are not Border Collies. They don't have KC pedigrees even though KC registered dogs are available. They are "working collies" and are from completely different lines. This makes perfect sense because the qualities needed to be a top farm dog are very different from looking beautiful in front of a judge on a manicured carpet! Already, even though the Border Collie has not been KC very long you can spot the difference between show dogs and working dogs. The show dogs have a much longer, thicker (and impractical!) coat for starters.

This seems completely logical to me. Breeders who test the value of their dogs by showing them will pick dogs who show well. Farmers who test their stock by training them as sheep dogs will pick good sheep dogs with good trainability, quick brains, reactiveness and immense athleticism. These dogs are also very high maintenance and can be neurotic. They don't make good pets. Isn't it obvious why a geniune farm bred Border Collie is going to be changed by the show ring and that breeding for the show ring will alter the nature of the dog so that in a very short period of time the show dogs will be unable to do the job (herding sheep) that the breed was actually developed for? It's a bit like breeding for jumping in horses, evaluating the conformation, but never actually asking the horse to jump. (I'm not saying anyone does that BTW!)

Yes, I am aware of the controversy… in short, there is substance to the criticism, mixed with a bit of exaggeration, hyperbole and the worst possible examples, rather than examples that demonstrate that many breeders care a great deal about transmitting health defects. I concede that some Toy and Non Sporting breeds (which do not ground their Breed standards in any functional purpose) are off track. And without question breeders of breeds like Australian Sheppards, Border Collies and JRs resisted inclusion into the AKC registry for the very reasons you mentioned. The Top winning Border Collie in this country probably does not closely resemble a farmer's best working collie. That was the fear 15 years ago... and the fear was valid. On the upside, the AKC now offers a variety of events, some geared more closely to the original purpose of the breed. A fan of these breeds can choose to show in Herding Trials, Rally, Agility, Earth Dog Trials or Conformation. The problem of how to avoid transmitting health defects is complex and is probably best discussed on a forum like Dog Show News Network (DSNN), which is focused on canines.

Relevant to this discussion, many of the Sporting, Hounds, Working, Terrier and Herding Breed standards call for a gender distinction, i.e. there is supposed to be the impression of femininity or masculinity. I have always accepted this as a goal in breeding without much critical thought, because it is “in the breed standard.” But since it’s come up here I must admit, I do not see how gender characteristics aid a female in doing a better job in the field, as a guard dog, as a herding dog and/or in chasing down vermin.

[Cartier]

Cartier, yes one needs some numbers but as I pointed out my first three crops were very similar in size to Bayhawk's first three crops. I do not know what ShowjumpersUSA's numbers are.

In any case, what I find incredible is the lack of doubt and the surfeit of certainty in their posts about their version of the Holsteiner way of breeding. But everyone knows how I feel and this is getting old.
Just to be clear, of all the posters and all the breeders here on this forum that I might be critical of, you are not one. I greatly admire your approach, I admire the results you have had, I think your record is exceptional. I value your opinons and experience. It is one thing to have theories, they are useful… but as you know, it is quite another thing to walk the walk, actually putting your resources of time, effort and money on the line in the belief that you are producing excellence. Far as I can tell, you are not claiming to have achieved your ultimate goals, but it seems to me that - without question - you are well on your way.

[stolensilver]

What I have learned from this thread is that a breeder must spend at least as much time and money on the training of their horses as they do on the breeding of them. Without that they are trusting to luck as to whether their horses are produced properly and without being produced properly they won't gather results. Without results the breeding programme cannot be validated and sales will suffer. After all the majority of buyers are buying to ride and looking for the best horse they can afford. If a stud farm does not have results to show prospective buyers to prove the ability of their horses many buyers are going to go elsewhere. It is this fact that has made the age classes so popular and so competitive. They are a way to show potential early.

I think that is where Tom is so far ahead of the game. His horses are sent to top producers and given every chance to show how good they are. Sensible business plan!

[Cartier]

What I have learned from this thread is that a breeder must spend at least as much time and money on the training of their horses as they do on the breeding of them. Without that they are trusting to luck as to whether their horses are produced properly and without being produced properly they won't gather results. Without results the breeding programme cannot be validated and sales will suffer. After all the majority of buyers are buying to ride and looking for the best horse they can afford. If a stud farm does not have results to show prospective buyers to prove the ability of their horses many buyers are going to go elsewhere. It is this fact that has made the age classes so popular and so competitive. They are a way to show potential early.

I think that is where Tom is so far ahead of the game. His horses are sent to top producers and given every chance to show how good they are. Sensible business plan!
Agree 100%.

I wonder how many breeders sat down in the beginning and generated "a sensible business plan" that included ALL the points you mention above. We didn't. :no:

[grayarabpony]

In Tom's defense, not that he needs it from me, ribbons in 1.1m classes are not the point. A video of a young horse jumping in such a class or in a hunter round for that matter could give some idea of talent, although only some, as many talented jumpers don't look that great over small fences!

Hocus Focus, love your work, BTW.

[Hocus Focus]

Much of this thread has apparantly gone to "the dogs" so as a nonbreeder, yet consumate observer (show photographer), I would like to comment from "outside the box".

First of all, the 1.10 m divisions at shows are competitive as are the 1.0 m divisions. (often half to all day classes with as many as 120 entries max. At such shows, often they divide these classes around the 60 entry point). From my viewpoint, it is a schooling division. One in which young horses are brought to gain valuable mileage. If one looks to this as an end in itself, ponies and possibly even a few cows (we owned one who jumped beautifully and most notably did it all over "barbed wire", and had the unscarred teats to prove it!!!!! What a heifer!!!!) could jump at that height. That is not to say the level is not an important one as it very much is a step in the process of development. I just don't see it has much validity for a criticism.

The truth is, it is usually the smaller more seasoned competitors that take home the top ribbons in these classes, some often having to go into points of reckless abandon to do so. Personally I prefer the optimum time as a deciding factor as it accentuates the importance of setting the pace needed. So for the sake of argument, I strongly doubt any horse who has or has not been put to this division has proven much as a high dollar sport horse. Yes they are first steps but I see in the field of entries as little as 10% who represent truthfully what I would expect of a contender for jumping the big fences. Smart breeders might be more wise to spend these development stages riding them through the hunter divisions which are very valid up to 4 feet. Preparation for riding bigger courses might be better spent in developing balance and rhythm than riding the tight line to make the ribbons in the popular lower level divisions of the jumper ranks.

Have at it folks. Interesting thread. I am more into the read than the chat, all the best yet I see how little of this truly applies to the laurels of an olympic champion which I for one "tip my hat". Few on the planet have or will ever follow in his footsteps as "high flying" as they have been.
__________________

[ponygirl]

I believe Showjumpers has had something homebred in the YJ 5 year old series though and, hopefully I will next year. Though if it doesn't stop raining, I'm never going to be able to get on and ride and it is making me quite cranky.

Tuya is imported and showing in the YJ 5 yr old series. :)

[vineyridge]

Here's a horse example of competition determining "type"--the very great difference between show hunters and field hunters. People who want to show hunters demand very different things from their horses than people who field hunt, and the breeders cater to their customers. It's not just in training, but in temperament, bottom, stamina, and Blood that the two types are differentiated. Field hunter people are not fixated on conformational beauty; they want other things from their horses. Beauty is always "in the eye of the beholder"; correct enough conformation to be able to perform is objective. Unfortunately people have come to believe that field hunters are a "byproduct" of other disciplines. If a horse isn't good (or pretty or extravagent as a mover) enough for one of the other disciplines, then market it as a field hunter prospect. That ain't how it works, folks. Field hunters are just as special in their own way as dressage horses, show hunters and jumpers. It's just that what makes them special is not breed specific. It's functional.

The coat example that Stolen Silver gave is a very good one. I have a friend who has been breeding AKC Golden Retrievers for more than twenty years. She has been trying to produce dual purpose (show and field) goldens, and it's almost impossible for a field dog to win at a show because of the coat thing. What is functional in the field is not extravagent enough for show judges.

[omare]

The reference to the 39 bonit mare was because of the dam of a very famous holsteiner stallion/sire -(carentino?) but I am guessing from your statement Bayhawk about the type of mares now used for breeding that the german holst industry has evolved from there and there is no place for such mares anymore(?)
(edited to add-sorry- I realize the thread has moved far along since I asked for the comparison/differences between such broodmares and the sporthorse "conformed" mare....)

[tri]

Some of the low level jumper classes here in the States are downright scary and I would never ride one of my potential GP horses that way as a young horse or as a seasoned horse....and they wonder why their horse's brain is fried and their legs are broken down.

It is now pouring down rain and my outdoor ring is a lake. If we get to the 5 yr old young jumpers, we may have to swim. Does that count?

[Sakura Hill Farm]

Its like us asking YOU, what horses you have that have done well in OUR Young Jumper series. I am sure it would also be a big fat zero.

I believe Showjumpers has had something homebred in the YJ 5 year old series though and, hopefully I will next year. Though if it doesn't stop raining, I'm never going to be able to get on and ride and it is making me quite cranky.

Actually, if I may interject, we have a 2004 mare that we bought from Tom as a yearling, Sakura Hill Zorriola M2S, that will be competing in the 5 yr. old Young Jumper Championship Qualifying classes this spring.

If I am not mistaken, Tuya, the 5 yr. old that Bonnie had at the YJ 5 year old championship at the Hampton Classic was bred in Germany and pointed towards eventing there.

[tri]

like we talked about in the Top 25 Mare Families, it is hard to know which ones are imported and which are American bred.

I wish you luck with your coming 5 year old. Maybe we will see you on the road.

Curious, what are you doing to prep yours to get ready for the classes. I don't think I will take mine in any until well into the spring.

[Sakura Hill Farm]

That is what we are thinking, too.. As HITS Ocala is just down the road from us, we will be putting her in some lower level classes there at the unrated shows and then on into the circuit. and hopefully the YJ classes in March. I am hoping to trailer in. Same jumps, same rings as the YJ 5 yr. old classes.We do intend to breed this mare this year however, so do not intend to go to the Championship classes this year with her.---The age-old dilemma that we will encounter until we have geldings.

[tri]

I'm going to start toddling around the hunter rings a bit with mine and then March, I can also trailer in if all is going well.

I'm going to keep this one in sport for a while though. I also have 2 full siblings to this one so we'll see how it goes.

Are you breeding full siblings from yours? Or is this one going to replace her dam?

[Sakura Hill Farm]

Zorri competed in jumper classes at small local shows up to 3'3" last summer until Monica suffered some facial fractures from an horse's upflung head- we don't know who the culprit was as Monica has no recollection of the accident.
We found that Zorri was overjumping but going around fine. We were not in it to win...

[Bayhawk]

Actually, if I may interject, we have a 2004 mare that we bought from Tom as a yearling, Sakura Hill Zorriola M2S, that will be competing in the 5 yr. old Young Jumper Championship Qualifying classes this spring.

If I am not mistaken, Tuya, the 5 yr. old that Bonnie had at the YJ 5 year old championship at the Hampton Classic was bred in Germany and pointed towards eventing there.

Never "pointed to eventing" . Always in the jumper ring and she qualified for and showed at the YJC in the Hamptons. Yes, bred in Holstein.

As for me , I've had 75% fillies from our program with most scarfed up for future breeding due to their valuable motherlines. I have a 7 yr old gelding doing amateur stuff in TX. I have a 5 yr old Cassini II mare coming up thru the ranks though. She is showing in the Hunters before going on to the Jumper ring. So no Tom.......I don't have anything to show you yet, but stay tuned.

[Bayhawk]

The reference to the 39 bonit mare was because of the dam of a very famous holsteiner stallion/sire -(carentino?) but I am guessing from your statement Bayhawk about the type of mares now used for breeding that the german holst industry has evolved from there and there is no place for such mares anymore(?)
(edited to add-sorry- I realize the thread has moved far along since I asked for the comparison/differences between such broodmares and the sporthorse "conformed" mare....)

Caretino's mother was 40 points and bonited under the old system, which ultimately made lower scores than the current system today.

I think most of those old low scoring mares have aged out and I don't know any German breeders with really low scoring mares that they are using for breeding. I'm sure there are some , but I don't know of any.

[Bayhawk]

I think some of the essential points some of the breeders on the thread are trying to convey in short replies is that there is much more that goes into breeding when one is concerned about preserving and protecting a particular 'breed' and at the same time breeding for superior athletes.

The whole debate over Hickstead and 'feminine' mares is coming from the mouths of serious breeders who choose to breed within the restraints of standards set forth by a specific 'breed' and specific 'sport'.

This conversation originated over the disappointment felt by Holsteiner breeders here in the US that the US based Holsteiner breed registry chose to approve a stallion based on performance successes which was not inclusive of breeding standards.

As stated multiple times on this thread - performance accolades are not the only criteria for which breeding stallions are selected. More must be considered when talking about the production of a specific breed.

There are valid concerns in reference to pedigree, body type and conformation standards that question the eligibility and inclusion of this stallion for the Holsteiner studbook.

The stallions which make up the studbook here or in Germany must be representatives of the breed in type and/or pedigree. Multiple examples of other superior athletes not given breeding privileges have been discussed for this very point.

Discussions about whether or not this stallion is a progenitor of his athletic abilities is not the point. The point is that if a horse (mare or stallion) is approved as breeding stock - it must be in line with the intentions of the 'breed' in question not just saying - well here's a good one - what about him?

For anyone who has bred a half bred (thoroughbred cross) then you will know first hand how much can change in one generation of breeding. The foal no longer looks like it's WB parent nor does it look like it's TB parent. It has morphed and changed. Given the opportunity to do it again generationally - you can make the type change again more toward the WB or TB. This is the concern about allowing the wrong 'type' of breeding stallion access to a breed registry that he clearly is not representative of. They don't want to see the breed type morphed by a poorly selected stallion and hell - if there was more than one like this apporved and you bred the worng type again - where would you be?

Now if we were talking about a sporthorse registry you wouldn't get getting such a mouthful. ;)


You said what I've been trying to say. Great post Angela !

[Sakura Hill Farm]

Never "pointed to eventing" . Always in the jumper ring and she qualified for and showed at the YJC in the Hamptons. Yes, bred in Holstein.



On her website, Bonnie had photos of Tuya in Germany with her young rider who, according to what Bonnie had written in conjunction with the photo,was training her for eventing. That is why I said "pointed towards eventing." The photo may no longer appear on the site.

[Bayhawk]

On her website, Bonnie had photos of Tuya in Germany with her young rider who, according to what Bonnie had written in conjunction with the photo,was training her for eventing. That is why I said "pointed towards eventing." The photo may no longer appear on the site.

Inken Johannsen started Tuya and she is one of Germany's premier event riders. Tuya has only ever shown in the jumpers.

[grayarabpony]

ANYWAY, there is no breed standard with Holsteiners, as Holsteiner is a registry and not a breed. Holsteiners are across the board with regard to type.

Reece, would you like to compare a picture of one of your mares to Fein Cera?

[omare]

totally off topic--but from long ago, my ideal mare--a mare that did it all-a top performer- a top broodmare and- to my eye- a beautiful mare (she makes my heart melt.... ;-)

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/retina

[grayarabpony]

She was gorgeous omare -- looked like a perfect blend of Ramzes and Holsteiner...

[Quinn]

I personally am NEVER cranky if I am:

eating chocolate
partaking in a spiced rum & tonic
riding Miss Quinn
on vacation

I wish everyone a lovely and safe holiday season.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

[Carrera]

I personally am NEVER cranky if I am:

eating chocolate
partaking in a spiced rum & tonic
riding Miss Quinn
on vacation

I wish everyone a lovely and safe holiday season.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

*snort* That made my day! :)

[Fairview Horse Center]

To stop me from being cranky, just give me a Bloomin' Onion! :yes: <gift certificates welcome> :lol: :lol:

[grayarabpony]

I personally am NEVER cranky if I am:

eating chocolate
partaking in a spiced rum & tonic
riding Miss Quinn
on vacation

I wish everyone a lovely and safe holiday season.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

That's good! :lol: Thanks for the laugh Quinn!

[tri]

preferrably dark chocolate and often with caramel or a rasberry sauce is good too.

Now, it isn't time yet, but a good vodka with a lime wedge in an iced glass.....for those that are old enough to drink!

[Quinn]

tri, I am normally a milk chocolate gal but your description with the raspberry coulis may just convert me. Okay not convert perhaps but definitely something I will try. Thanks for that!

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

[tri]

Hey and dark chocolate is supposed to be good for you too. Does the lime wedge in the vodka count as a serving of fruit???

[Fairview Horse Center]

Hey and dark chocolate is supposed to be good for you too. Does the lime wedge in the vodka count as a serving of fruit???

Absolutely! and chocolate covered cherries counts as 2 plusses, antioxidents AND a serving of fruit. :lol:

[Hocus Focus]

I was looking at Tom's site the other day. Lots of good jumping blood there, and a kind reference to Hickstead and how he relates to the bloodlines iin Tom's program.

I was also at the inspection where Michele brought the grey mare who she purchased from Tom's breeding program.

It was a long day, a well attended inspection and this was the final ride of the day. it was humid of course, as Florida can be and the footing in that ring is in my opinion deep and not the best footing for a jump course, not easy even for a very fit horse to handlle and I don't think the mare was as fit as she could have been coming in.

As they began, they allowed a time to warm up and the mare was leaping a bit at the first and in one moment gave a crowd tickling effort by practically clearing the top of the standards over a cross rail. She did settle and put in a respectable showing handling the challenge as they included more fences and eventually a course, but I was concerned about her level of fitness and the tough footing the ring offered.

It made the challenge more difficult than it needed to be. I think Sandy should consider setting the jump course up on the grass field in future. I would much rather see young horses jumping on grass than in deep sand. I felt it all a bit unfair that the mare had to be given a bit more of a ride than was needed to be asked of her in her test. She handled it all very well despite the challenges and never put a foot wrong once she got down to business.

I felt the mare was game and jumped with heart. Just thought I might add that from an outsider's viewpoint on the event, she met the test standard and received a lovely cooler for her efforts. Michele was very proud and kudos to the rider who presented her well. He had to work a bit to make that long distance down the far side and he knew it as well as we all did. It was an in and out followed by an oxer which I don't recall if it was four or five strides out, but I do remember she had to be hustled and leaped the final gamely to finish a somewhat grueling young horse test. The little mare was all business and performed well despite the challenge.

On appearance, I saw her as a small to medium sized mare but then again that didn't seem to have hurt Hickstead now did it.

[Sakura Hill Farm]

Hocus Focus-

Thank you for your "mixed' review.As you know, the mare you are referring to, Sakura Hill Zorriola M2S, is by Ekstein out of a Corrado I mare that was a successful international jumper in Europe, retiring sound at age 11 after competing and winning at 1 meter 60 in Germany with Henrik Gundersen. The "little'" mare Zorri sticked at age four that day at 166 cm (16'1" hands) barefoot. She sticked at 162 cm as a three year- old. We had told you of Monica's facial fractures which had meant that she was unable to even ride the mare for almost three weeks prior to the test---the rider at the test had never jumped the mare before. We agree with you- he did an excellent job with her and what you term my pride was that but also overwhelming relief that the unforeseen had been dealt with in such a successful manner. Since Monica had started and put all the flat and jumper training on this mare herself, there was no small measure of parental pride as well! I was also thrilled when Bart the Dutch judge said that Zorri definitely had international quality and invited her back after some time in competition for reevaluation for star. He recognized that she is a slow maturing mare as he had seen her the previous year and could measure her development since then.

Sandi does an admirable job running the KWPN and other inspections. We have nothing but praise for her. Early September weather in Florida is what it is. That being said, I must agree with what you have said about the footing in that ring for jumping. It is VERY deep and I fear dreaded suspensory injuries occurring. Perhaps the indoor arena would be better. I am also concerned about a potential situation next year when we have a jumper mare being inspected for studbook(hence, free jumping) and possibly doing an IBOP and/or an Iron Spring Farm test. The tests certainly cannot take place back to back! But I know that Sandi will be mindful of our concerns.

We had a party offer to buy our mare before the jumping test. My refusal then was amply justified by her performance of the test under what were less-than-perfect conditions.

We appreciate your excellent photos of the event which we proudly put up on our site on Zorri's webpage as well as under "News" for all to see!

[grayarabpony]

Personally I wouldn't hire a photographer who goes on a national bb and comments on the horses she photographs.

food for thought....

Sakhill your mare sounds wonderful.

[Cartier]

Hocus Focus-

Thank you for your "mixed' review.As you know, the mare you are referring to, Sakura Hill Zorriola M2S, is by Ekstein out of a Corrado I mare that was a successful international jumper in Europe, retiring sound at age 11 after competing and winning at 1 meter 60 in Germany with Henrik Gundersen. The "little'" mare Zorri sticked at age four that day at 16 hands barefoot. We had told you of Monica's facial fractures which had meant that she was unable to even ride the mare for almost three weeks prior to the test---the rider at the test had never jumped the mare before. We agree with you- he did an excellent job with her and what you term my pride was that but also overwhelming relief that the unforeseen had been dealt with in such a successful manner. Since Monica had started and put all the jumper training on this mare herself, there was no small measure of parental pride as well! I was also thrilled when Bart the Dutch judge said that Zorri definitely had international quality and invited her back after some time in competition for reevaluation for star. He recognized that she is a slow maturing mare as he had seen her the previous year and could measure her development since then.

Sandi does an admirable job running the KWPN and other inspections. We have nothing but praise for her. Early September weather in Florida is what it is. That being said, I must agree with what you have said about the footing in that ring for jumping. It is VERY deep and I fear dreaded suspensory injuries occurring. Perhaps the indoor arena would be better. I am also concerned about a potential situation next year when we have a jumper mare being inspected for studbook(hence, free jumping) and possibly doing an IBOP or an Iron Spring Farm test. The tests certainly cannot take place back to back! But I know that Sandi will be mindful of our concerns.

We had a party offer to buy our mare before the jumping test. My refusal then was amply justified by her performance of the test under what were less-than-perfect conditions.

We appreciate your excellent photos of the event which we proudly put up on our site for all to see!
Beautiful mare... you must be very proud of her... and btw, lovely website.

[Cartier]

Personally I wouldn't hire a photographer who goes on a national bb and comments on the horses she photographs.

food for thought....



just a clarification, Reg a.k.a. Hocus Focus is a "he"

[Hocus Focus]

Thanks GAP. You have a very good point.

And as a note to all who feel the same way, please be kind enough to identify yourself if you are in competition where I or any other professional is working and do not wish to be photographed. With the endless thankless hours the job demands, the words "no photos please" is music to my ears.

[grayarabpony]

Thanks Cartier. I wasn't sure if Reg was short for Regina or Reginald.

Hocus Focus your work is beautiful, so no worries on that count. I just wouldn't want an online comment unless it was something like "Her horse is so beautiful" or "She rides so well!" :lol::lol::winkgrin:

[Hocus Focus]

Regina is a big town in Saskatchewan, which is western Canada!.... Reg is a hill billy in Nova Scotia, which is Eastern Canada! Don't make me tell you again!

Now... if you wish to tell me that my photos "stink" and they do, I have no problem. If you wish on the other hand to say this is a perfect world and we are all angels, I could not agree with you more.

By the way and you can all hate me for this. As in dancers, magicians and all things of enormous talent, Hickstead standing is not an eye full based on the shots I have seen to date, but in the air he is stunning. He jumps like a cat and seeing some of his Olympic shots gives one chills, which is in my opinion what a good photo should do. Hopefully they will be inclined to use those shots in his promotion.

[Sakura Hill Farm]

Reg has an opportunity to see more horses in one season than most of us will see in our lifetime...and with a critical eye. We value his comments---about our horses as well as others! There is always an opportunity to respond!

[grayarabpony]

Now... if you wish to tell me that my photos "stink" and they do, I have no problem. If you wish on the other hand to say this is a perfect world and we are all angels, I could not agree with you more.

By the way and you can all hate me for this. As in dancers, magicians and all things of enormous talent, Hickstead standing is not an eye full based on the shots I have seen to date, but in the air he is stunning. He jumps like a cat and seeing some of his Olympic shots gives one chills, which is in my opinion what a good photo should do. Hopefully they will be inclined to use those shots in his promotion.

I am confused by what's in bold. Did you mean to say disagree? :winkgrin:

You know what, a lot of really good (and great) horses don't look that great standing still. Some do and some don't. I also think that people have a kind of skewed view of conformation that's good for sport at times.

I like the one shot of Hickstead standing that I've seen, not that it's possible to see detail, but some probably won't like him they'll think he looks too Thoroughbred, or that his back looks too long, or something like that. He's 44% blood according to paardenfokken, with 4 TBs in the 4th generation and even more in the 5th. Of the 32 horses in the 5th generation 10 are Thoroughbreds and 6 are TB crosses. The rest are horses from a mix of registries: Gronigen, Gerlander, Oldenburg, Holsteiner, Trakhener, and Dutch Warmblood.

A bit of trivia: The Holsteiner Farn's granddam, according to allpedigree, was the AngloArabian Margot.

A horse I would love to see close-up is Custom Made. 17 hands and evented at the top level for years. As well as Magic Rogue, and close-ups of Gem Twist, For the Moment... All very successful and durable.

[Sakura Hill Farm]

Beautiful mare... you must be very proud of her... and btw, lovely website.

Thanks!

[Hocus Focus]

Reg has an opportunity to see more horses in one season than most of us will see in our lifetime...and with a critical eye. We value his comments---about our horses as well as others! There is always an opportunity to respond!

Not in the same league by any means as the accomplishments of Hickstead but there is a Mexican thoroughbred by the name of Playboy that I have seen compete with Guy Thomas on the west coast who I have always had a soft spot for. I bring him up because he too is one of a kind..."Not much to look at" but all business on course. He is a Derby specialist and has the distinction of having won the Pebble Beach Derby a total of 9 times. I may stand corrected on that number, at least 8 for sure. This is a 10K class very well attended and normally has as many as 40-50 entries. While it is not a high jumping class (4 ft), it is demanding with many fences of a lot of types from triple combinations, banks, water, bounces, and about 28 jumping efforts in the first round spanning two rings and incorporating a couple of solid fences as well. Usually there are between 8-10 clean rides and that is where Playboy shines. He loves to gallop and Guy Thomas is an excellent rider who is very consistent. His mom Lou Thomas has been a west coast sensation in her own right in the hunter divisions throughout the years. If Guy is in the jumpoff, everyone knows how it will end. They just have a very special relationship and understanding.... all about knowing when to push and pull and they are fun to listen to on course because often they seem to have conversations. Anyway fun stuff if you are watching, and he is one of those unusual horses that I admire a great deal. Playboy is not a flashy horse, but there is nothing about him that doesn't operate perfectly in the job needed. He is all business. How does any of this relate to this thread. I don't know but there are a few parallels. Greatness does not always come as we expect it might. It is rare and special and should be cherished. I have a CD of Playboy winning one of his Derbys. If I knew how, I would put it on U Tube for you all to enjoy.

I have known a few horses like that through the years. Some horses are just special, and they are a joy to have known.


At horse shows today, it is hard for any horse to stand above the crowd. Let's face it there are so many factors that come into play.

[grayarabpony]

Nice post!

[imajacres]

Sorry I have been so busy lately; being a musician, Christmas time is a particularly hectic time.
Thanks for your patience.

Getting back on topic somewhat, I have just put up Hickstead's page on our site. There is a standing picture of him as well as some jump pix. As I live close to the end of the world, internet wise, I havent been able to check if all the pix are working (thank you dialup), so if anyone notices anything strange, please feel free to let me know.
http://www.angelfire.com/ca6/MatchmakerEquine/Hickstead.html

As for his approvals, we will have an official list in the next few weeks. At that time we will also have info like cannon bone size, etc.

Ingrid

[Sakura Hill Farm]

Sorry to come back, but for purposes of accuracy---the 16 hands figure (162 cm)was Zorriola's height as a 3 yr. old at the 2007 New England keuring. In Florida in 2008, her height is recorded at 166 cm ( 16'1" hands) at 4 years old. Reg may have found her small as the rider is quite tall and long-waisted. I personally do not think that this height at age 4 can be termed "small" or "little."

[Dancinglite2]

A horse of this calibre and outstanding athletic record can be approved for breeding with the Canadian Sport Horse Association.....and since I breed registered CSH's guess what I want Santa to bring me this year? I will be contacting Ingrid in the near future myself.

And bonus...the stallion (when not travelling all over the world competing) resides at his home farm about 8 miles from me in Ontario.

Except the CSH also want 16 HH stallions.

And as Trur Colours has gone one and on and on and on about, the CSH ONLY issues COP papers so why would a horse like Hickstead lower his status by going CSHA?