Opinions - when to breed vs when to look for a young stock

[Dawnd]

Forgive me if I'm being so horribly green...(there's multiple questions in this post, sorry)

When/how should someone make the decision to breed a good mare to a great stallion vs. looking at younger stock?

I have a good mare (great personality, great looks, good but improvable conformation and average performance) and when I think of my next horse, I wonder if I should breed her in say two years to my dream stallion vs. looking for something already standing and weaned.

I understand the risks involved with the entire breeding process as well as the uncertainty but there must be a line where the benefits outweigh the risks of being able to choose both mare and stallion when you know the mare so well?

And also on that note when selecting a stallion for breeding or looking at young stock strictly from possible performance potential (PPP), what do you weigh more: performance of progeny? siblings? dams family? Intuition?

[Beandog]

As far as how and when to make the choice to breed, you have the answer in your summary of your mare. She's a good mare. Not a great mare. Unless you would be 110% satisfied to see a mini-me version of her, don't breed her. Keep her, ride her, love her, sing kumbaya in the pasture together, but don't breed her.

It is far more cost efficient to buy a foal from a great mare bred to a great stallion. The guess work is removed. You know what you are getting. And for the most part you can purchase an extremely well bred, well put together youngster for the same price if not significantly less than that stud fee to your dream stallion combined with the vet bills etc that you mare will require. And that is if everything is normal.

If there is a stallion that is your ultimate dreamboat out there, then shop around for one of his foals. It is a buyers market out there, so that foal that a few years ago might have been out of your reach financially is now very much affordable.

And just remember, this advice is worth exactly what you paid for it ;)

[Spectrum]

I think Beandog hit the nail on the head. You need to be able to look at your mare and say, "I would be happy if I got something just like (or substantially similar to) that."

And the next step beyond that is to look at what parts you aren't totally thrilled with, and decide if you know enough to find a stallion that won't exacerbate those flaws.

For example, if your mare has a flaw, can you analyze her conformation enough to determine the root of the flaw and then look at the stallion, the stallion's ancestor's, the stallions siblings from various mare lines and the stallion's offspring to determine whether he will likely improve on that flaw or possibly make it worse?

I think probably 7 or 8 times out of ten you are better off buying something already on the ground. The cost won't be much different in the long run, and you gain at least a year of time (and there is something to be said for that!).

For example, my mare (who is currently my riding horse, I have bred once in the past and was bred once before by someone else) is a premium mare. She's thrown two exceptional, eye-popping foals. She is a very nice mover, has a great work ethic, and is extremely talented under saddle. I've never had someone look at her and say, "Are you sure you wouldn't rather buy something?" On the contrary, I have people telling me, "You should be breeding that mare as much as you can before she gets too old."

But I sold her last baby for about $6,000... which about covered the cost of producing it and not much more. And it was a *fabulous* baby who would make either a top hunter or an upper level dressage horse without a doubt.

On the other hand, there's nothing quite like the emotional feeling of having "your own" baby on the ground. But I have to warn you, that feeling is addictive!

Spectrum.

[Mozart]

But I have to warn you, that feeling is addictive!

Spectrum.

THAT is the biggest risk in breeding. ;)
Especially if the first one was nice.

[ShowjumpersUSA]

And also on that note when selecting a stallion for breeding or looking at young stock strictly from possible performance potential (PPP), what do you weigh more: performance of progeny? siblings? dams family? Intuition?

When looking for a stallion, in the hope of producing a sporthorse, his progeny tell the story. In my opinion, it's always best to use a proven stallion. One with progeny in sport and doing as well as you would like yours to do. If he has no progeny in sport, you become part of an experiment to see what he produces. I prefer others do the experimenting.

You also have the option of a custom foal. You choose the mother, based on whatever criteria you want, such as the mare best suited to the stallion of your choice. Many good breeders with exceptional mares are offering custom foals these days. It's something to think about!

[Tiki]

I completely agree with Beandog.

[Fairview Horse Center]

People should bred maiden mares for 2 reasons. She is an incredible girl, and you just have to take a chance to reproduce her. OR, she is a very good mare, and you intend to use her to find what she crosses best with as a "broodmare", not just a mare you wanted to breed once. That will be improving the stallion selection to improve what you find with each cross. With a maiden mare, she may not produce anything like herself, OR the stallion. You could get a totally different mix of her great grandparents body parts and temperament. The first few foals out of a mare are a learning curve.

If you want to get the horse you want, look around to see if you can find it. Start looking now to see the prices on what you like. If you find something you love, it may be possible to purchase a full sibling, custom foal for even less.

[Oakstable]

I find it interesting that the sporthorse breeding addicts are saying don't breed, buy.

Those of us who got in the game are wondering what we're doing come spring, should we continue to sit on the sidelines or get back in ... but someone new is discouraged from playing.

The decision is so personal.

I wouldn't advise anyone, especially with the economy in the tank.

Breeding horses is fun. It is a passion. Otherwise this forum would not exist. Betcha it gets more traffic than many others in COTH.

[andy.smaga]

dawnd, the higher risk is to breed a maiden mare, the next is to buy a foal, then a yearling, and so on...
look at your budget, then look at the market and take the lower risk option you can afford.

[patch work farm]

It is an interesting question. For those of us "addicts" it is a difficult call, but frankly in conversation with other breeders, many of us have come to the conclusion that it is more cost effective to buy what you want. We all know it is a crap shoot whenever we breed and since I have bred many full siblings I can vouch for that, no two have ever been exactly a like. I do have to agree that you should start with a great mare, but no one can tell you what to do, you will make your own decision.

[FriesianX]

The highest risk with breeding is........ ADDICTION. :lol:

The decision to breed is a personal one - if you are ONLY looking at how to obtain the best show horse, go buy a proven show horse. If you want to go through the excitement, joy, fear, gamble of breeding, you really love your mare - then breed her! But realize you may be disappointed in the results if your biggest goal is a show horse.

[pintopiaffe]

I'm on the sides of FriesianX and Oakstable... so many reasons to breed, not the least of which is my love affair with late term mares... the fact that I actually adore foal watch (aside from the sleep deprivation! :sleepy: ) and the sheer miracle that is birth. Don't get me wrong--the grief can be as devastating as the joy is exhilarating...

BUT, the first and foremost one is that I believe in the product I am producing (the mares are producing!) and I *can't* find it elsewhere. Or if I can it's rare, and I can't afford it. Yes, yes, I know all the arguments about how expensive breeding is. TRUST me I know... but I have theoretically five or six years of 'payment plan' to get that four or five year old to the point of under saddle. And honestly, that IS a factor for some of us. We are breeding to keep ourselves in fabulous horses. It IS cheaper because of owning our own farm, having the land, having the TIME that we are not counting as 'cost.'

And yet, I bought a weanling a year ago. And I am very, very strongly looking into purchasing another filly (suckling/weanling or even en utero) vs. breeding my next, since loosing the prospect of getting the next one out of my best mare. I am at the point where I want something very, very specific, and the reality of saving for a couple of years for it is perhaps a wiser choice.

I don't know.

I will say if it is YOUR first, make sure you have a great mentor. There was a really fabulous thread here this summer (I think) about advice for the first time breeder... It should be archived--I don't know if it IS, but it certainly was worthy. You really have to have a great vet who you can TALK to and ask questions... and a good mentor, preferably locally that you can call if things go wrong.

[Forte]

I've done both, breeding, buying foals, yearlings, two-year olds on up. I would have to say that I've always gotten the most bang for my buck buying two year olds. At that point you have a prettty good idea of what they are going to look like and how they move. Unbroke 2 year olds are often reasonably, priced (often the same or less money than foals!) and you are getting them before the price goes up as saddle broke 3 year olds. Personally, I find buying foals tough. Sometimes they look so floaty and fancy as foals, but they don't move the same way as adults. Breeding is a labor of love. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't. I wouldn't breed unless you absolutely love the mare and would be happy with a clone of her.
Good luck in your decision.

[Dawnd]

Thanks to everyone who took the time to write! The wealth of advise is tremendous.

I can see how breeding would get addictive, I'm already addicted to stallion research.

[Bravestrom]

I breed because I can not find what I want.

We want warmblood crosses with specific draft lines. We have carefully selected two lines of draft crosses, - clyde/hackney - commercials by a world famous breeder of these crosses and belgian/tb line that has exceptional qualities.

Then we have chosen very carefully special warmblood stallions to cross with our mares.

We have two exceptional offspring so far including a beautiful colt that is 1/2 swedish/1/4clyde/1/4hackney - will be used to produce the offspring I want - that will result in 1/8 clyde crossed with warmbloods.

The other side of our breeding has produced a beautiful belgian/tb/ hanoverian mare that will now be crossed with warmbloods to produce 1/4 belgian line.

So while we have bred our own, we are now looking to purchase some young warmblood stock to breed our colt to.

I also have coming another clyde cross by an elite hanoverian.

So to find what I want is just not out there.

While I am having a lot of fun with the breeding process, it is a lot of work, a lot of money and there are definitely some heartaches along the way.

[ise@ssl]

I honestly think it's a super time to buy a young horse. With the economy soft - I can't be the only breeder that's receptive to an offer below our stated price if it's a good home with a buyer who will take the youngster into a good training situation. Plus it does allow the buyer to actually work with a young horse and train it. Then breeding their own mare allows them an experience with what they found positive or negative about the youngster they purchased.

[busybee]

I think it's very exciting to breed your own but more of a risk. What did you decide?

[Dawnd]

I think it's very exciting to breed your own but more of a risk. What did you decide?

No decisions yet.

I'm leaning towards the direction of a foal on the ground just to avoid the risk of birth if something were to go wrong but I honest to god love my mare's eye. I swim in her looks some days. :yes:

[stolensilver]

I think you need to sit down and ask yourself a few questions.

Firstly what do you want from your next horse? Include things like size, colour, competitive career including young stock in hand showing if that is what you wish to do and their dream career as an adult.

Secondly evaluate your mare. With only minor tweaking as no stallion is a miracle worker would she be your ideal horse? If you got a foal slightly worse than her in every area would you be happy? If you got a foal identical to her in every way would you be happy?

Thirdly if your start with a healthy mare and a healthy stallion there is only a 60% chance of getting a healthy foal. So 40% chance of no foal or a sick/dying foal.

Fourthly breeding your own foal is almost always way more expensive than buying one and if you buy one you get to see what you are getting before parting with any money!


In summary especially with the economic climate as it is I would only breed your mare if she is your horse of a lifetime and you cannot replace her in any way other than breeding her. If it helps at all I've been through your dilemma and here's the story.

I'm lucky in that I've found my horse of a lifetime. She is an Irish Draught Sports Horse with paces and trainability good enough to competitively get to GP dressage. We're currently schooling PSG so not too far away but we're running out of time as she is 15. We started late. :lol: Choosing between going further in dressage or having a foal before it is too late (and it may already be too late) has been difficult. However what finally made me make my mind up was the queue of breeders wanting to have her on loan as a broodmare based on her competition record and amateur friendly temperament. Amateur friendly, correct, talented horses are rarer than you realise. She also hunted in her younger days and was a rolls royce over the biggest country. 5 foot hedges didn't phase her at all! If I got a foal from her that was just like her I'd be over the moon. So next year she's going on breeding loan to an AI vet as they want to breed a top class hunter and the year after that she's going to an Irish Draught Sports Horse stallion who is competing at Inter 1, schooling Grand Prix having been trained to that level by his amateur and very talented rider. Not a usual recipe for breeding a dressage horse but exactly what I want and not something I could obtain in any other way.

So is your mare your heart horse? The one you wish you could have all over again? If she is then breed her. If she is not then probably better to buy.

[Ladybug Hill]

I think this is the best time ever to buy vs breed. I know that many quality horses are being nearly given away. Shopping can be as much fun as breeding if you can afford your expense up front instead of over 4 years. Really shop around and find exactly what you want.

[grayarabpony]

I always remember what Hilda Gurney said: If you don't want a duplicate of your mare, don't breed her.

Of course you won't get a copy if you breed her, but she may pass on her weaknesses and not her strengths -- you never know.

I have bred one horse, from a mare that I viewed as the total package for an amateur, although she had talent for a professional. Unfortunately she died from a ruptured uterine artery shortly after her foal was born -- sickening for her, for the foal she left behind, and for us. How I wish she would have lived and I would have loved a filly from her as well.

We still have her foal, a beautiful athletic gelding. We never had plans to sell him, he was always to stay with us. Personally I wouldn't want to breed horses unless I started with a very special mare.

[Valentina_32926]

PROs of breeding:
1. If you'd be happy with the worst characteristics of the mare and stallion, then breed :) (UNLESS you can buy what you want) :cool:.
2. Baby grows up at your place so no bad habits will be introduced (or at least you hope not). :winkgrin:

CONS to breeding:
1. If you breed mare can die. :(
2. Can cost more than buying (probably will if you buy from a good sized breeding facility they get discounts in numbers versus the one time breeder). :cry:
3. 50% chance of getting wrong sex :yes:
4. limited chance of getting wrong color (unless both parents are chestnut and you want a chestnut). :lol:
5. Birth defects
6. Baby gets hurts before it's old enough to ride.

[okggo]

If you want the WHOLE experience then breed her. It's not surprising to me that breeders are saying buy - 1st you have to really want a copy of your mare or she should be stellar if you plan to market the foal and 2nd, they have young stock they want to sell :D

I bred my first in 2005, and if the fact I have 2 more and one in the oven is an indication of the addiction, then yes I need therapy, lol. What can I say, it IS addictive!

My opinion...you need to love your mare and really want her to be a part of this. That being a yes, have a pro come and give you a very honest evaluation of her strenghts and weaknesses. Based on that, use that to help you find a stallion to be the best nick for her. There are stallions quite pre-potent to "fix" things like top line, jump, etc. Talk to the stallion owner and ask to see foals out of similar mares. Try to see what you might end up with. There are all kinds of other 'fun' things you can do, like color testing, WB inspections, etc.

Biggest downside, the RISK. But...horses in and of themselves are risks. They are walking disasters, bred or not. Be smart, insure her NOW and keep it until after she has safely foaled and has a few months to recover.

Anyway...I guess I'm pretty transparent, I say go for it, BUT you really need to want the whole experience and to have YOUR MARE be a part of it. If you don't really want another horse like your mare, and don't want the time/energy/work associated with breeding, then by all means I agree with the others that the time is great to buy.

[BBowen]

I am going to follow along with Okggo; both of us have 2005 babies and have very similar feelings about this.

For me, I had a really nice mare (breeding and performance) but she was not perfect conformationally, nothing too drastic. She was a wonderful horse and I wanted to breed her and bring up my own riding horse. Did a lot of research before choosing a stallion and talked to a lot of breeders. Most breeders will tell you to breed the best to the best and that is good to remember. However, what is best for one person is not necessarily the best for another. My goal was an nicely bred horse with a sane mind and amateur friendly. It was to be my horse, so I wasn't necessarily looking for huge, extravagant movement that I could not possibly ride. I think all of us whether professional breeder or occasional breeder would like to think they have that next Olympic champion, but those are few and far between and I will happily leave that to the pros.

My filly turned out to be exactly what I wanted. She is beautiful, has lovely movement and is sane as can be. The stallion did improve on my mare's weaknesses and gave my filly boldness and curiosity that my mare lacked (she was pretty aloof). My girl was so easy to start and loved being in work. She is naturally balanced and very smart, so you have to stay on your toes to keep things interesting. No, she doesn't have the huge floating trot that we are all impressed with nor does she power off the ground in the jump chute. She is relaxed and elegant in her movement and jumps are effortless for her. She seems to know just how much she should apply herself to handily clear the fence.

She is a good horse and perfect for me. It has been a wonderful journey and I wouldn't take anything for having an improved reflection of my mare.

[hansiska]

I wrote an article for my local USDF GMO (NEDA) last year on this very topic. I started a thread about it on the NEDA BB and got lots of emails. I heard a lot of horror stories from both sides. People who purchased their dream horses told me of unexpected illnesses or issues. One woman had a foal contract an illness during shipment and spent the equivalent of the price of the foal on a month in ICU. Another bought in-utero and the foal developed wobblers. Close to $20K in import and on the foal and the seller refused to refund a cent, despite existing conditions being specifically protected for in the contract. (That owner was considering legal action when I spoke to her last).

People who bred their own told me about issues with getting mares to settle or didn't get the foals they'd hoped for. Several told me they never expected a young horse would require so much time. They complained about the prospect of extensive training and the prospect of riding a youngster. They complained about not saving money by breeding a horse themselves.

When asked what their future choices might be and if they'd recommend breeding or buying, about 50% said they wouldn't breed their own again, that they now realized they could go out and get a VERY nice weanling for what they spent on breeding, for example. The ones who'd breed again were clearly hooked. They'd done LOTS of research, gotten professional opinions, and then shown their young horses in hand with great success. (It's great fun owning a talented youngster; I can certainly vouch for that!)

The bottom line is, it's your choice and no one can make it for you. You have to do what you feel is right.

Me? I've done both. I can tell you that if you have very specific job requirements for the foal you produce, it's likely to take you about three to five foals to produce that one that you want. If you're lucky. And there's certainly a lot of opportunity for heartbreak. But breeding horses is also one of the most fantastic and wonderful experiences I've ever been privileged to have. I can't ethically tell you NOT to do it; it's too amazing! Just do your homework and know the risks.