Cat's hind end: freaky or great or Araby or what?

[pwynnnorman]

First, know that asking for opinions here (on the dressage BB) is something I NEVER do -- because you guys and gals intimidate me royally, BUT...

I need opinions. I keep going back to these photos and wondering and wondering about Cat's hind end. By today's standard, by your eyes, by whatever you use, is it good, is it bad, is it just freaky? Have you seen it, maybe, in Arab crosses? If not, where? Is it just in her hock or is it really the entire hind end that's involved?

I don't trust my own eyes here. What do you think? There are some 20 or so photos and this was only her 2nd dressage test ever (and 3rd "dressagy" ride under KOC), so there are some really rough spots, but...would you look at the trot shots--please get to around shot #106 and the next five or so after that--and then again (ignoring the yukky canter stuff!), shot #118-123, which don't show correctness, but show the hind end stuff in a different way due to that incorrectness.

http://www.photoreflect.com/pr3/orderpage.aspx?pi=00FD00DJ0W0086&po=86

Do I see what I think I see? Please tell me your impressions. Don't spare my feelings, too -- I'm serious about wanting to understand.

[slc2]

What do you think is going on? What do you think you see? It sounds like you're REALLY freaked out about something. What is it? The way the hind foot is coming forward? Do YOU think it's good? Bad? Some Arab freaky thing? Please communicate some more.

I think I see a lady leaning way forward riding with the left stirrup longer than the right.

The horse looks ok, though the hind legs might be a little stiff, and she might be twisting her inside hind leg inward a little, right before she puts it down on the ground. Perhaps she's a little tight behind or a little nervous, she doesn't look 100% loose and through. Probably just due to her first show.

[Traum]

There are some good eyes here but I agree with you, something doesn't look right in the whole hind end. I'd have liked to see from the front or going away shots but stepping over under the body like that isn't normal. At first I thought it was just the photo angle but it's there going both directions. The only horse I've known that carried himself like that had wobbles and neuro stuff going on. That's the first thing that jumped to my mind, but then I'm probably too sensitive to that. I'm sure KOC would be on top of that though :)

Gorgeous horse! I hope you get some good thoughts.

[siegi b.]

Pwynn - I think it's a very cute mare that could be a little bit more generous in a lot of things, like length of neck, elasticity, looseness through the back, etc. The rider looks to be from a hunter background and isn't doing the horse any favors ASSUMING this is a dressage competition.

My general impression is that of a horse that is tight through the back and neck and could use some lunging lessons with side-reins to learn how to use her back better.

Just my 2 cents worth....

[slc2]

I think the horse just looks tight and a little stiff. agree about the previous rider comments.

[LoveMyArabians]

I thought I'd add this for those that are not familiar with Arabians...

Arabian horses have refined, wedge-shaped heads, a broad forehead, large eyes, large nostrils, and small muzzles. Most display a distinctive concave or "dished" profile. Many Arabians also have a slight forehead bulge between their eyes, called the "jibbah" by the Bedouin, that adds additional sinus capacity, believed to have helped the Arabian horse in its native dry desert climate.

Another breed characteristic is an arched neck with a large, well-set windpipe set on a refined, clean throatlatch. This structure of the poll and throatlatch was called the mitbah or mitbeh by the Bedouin, and in the best Arabians is long, allowing flexibility in the bridle and room for the windpipe.

Other distinctive features are a relatively long, level croup and naturally high tail carriage. Well-bred Arabians have a deep, well-angled hip and well laid-back shoulder. Most have a compact body with a short back. Some, though not all, have 5 lumbar vertebrae instead of the usual 6, and 17 rather than 18 pairs of ribs. Thus, even a small Arabian can carry a heavy rider with ease. Arabians usually have dense, strong bone, sound feet, and good hoof walls. They are especially noted for endurance.

Some people confuse the refinement of Arabians with having weak or too-light bone. However, the USEF breed standard requires Arabians have solid bone and correct conformation, and the superiority of the breed in endurance competition clearly demonstrates that well-bred Arabians are strong, sound horses with good bone and superior stamina. At international levels of FEI-sponsored endurance events, Arabians and half-Arabians are the dominant performers in distance competition worldwide.

Another misconception confuses the skeletal structure of the sacrum with the angle of the "hip" (the pelvis or ilium), leading some to assert that the comparatively horizontal croup and high-carried tail of Arabians correlates to a flat pelvis and thus they cannot use their hindquarters properly. However, the croup is formed by the sacral vertebrae.

The hip angle is determined by the attachment of the ilium to the spine, the structure and length of the femur, and other aspects of hindquarter anatomy, not necessarily the angle of the sacrum. Thus, the Arabian has conformation typical of other horse breeds built for speed and distance, such as the Thoroughbred, which properly includes the angle of the ilium being more oblique than that of the croup, the hip at approximately 35 degrees to a croup angle of 25 degrees. The proper comparison of sacrum and hip is in length, not angle. All horses bred to gallop need a good length of croup and good length of hip for proper attachment of muscles, and the two do go together as a rule.

The hip angle, on the other hand, is not necessarily correlated to the line of the croup. Thus, a good-quality Arabian has both a relatively horizontal croup and a properly angled pelvis with good length of croup and depth of hip (length of pelvis) to allow agility and impulsion. Within the breed, there are variations. Some individuals have wider, more powerfully muscled hindquarters suitable for intense bursts of activity in events such as reining, while others have longer, leaner muscling better suited for long stretches of flat work such as endurance riding or horse racing.

The mare could have some issues going on like someone has mentioned. I do agree her croup area looks odd. She moves very well if it is a conformational flaw though in my opinion, but it could be just that... or maybe something is going on with her too.

Cindy

[Kathy Johnson]

I'm got so stuck on how pretty the pony's head is that I didn't much care too much about the hind end.

What I do see from around 106 on is that the pony's diagonal pairs are not quite even. The swing pair is good and even, but the stance pair, where the legs are on the ground, are not quite even. So, she is lifting her left hind before she is lifting her her right front in trot. This means (gasp) she is on the forehand. We might say her forehand is dwelling, or we might say her hind end is hasty. It is pretty darn normal for a greenish horse, and a horse, as she appears to be, with a lot of suspension in her trot, will catch up in the suspension phase so the trot will appear two beat most of the time.

I suppose it could indicate a weakness behind, but it just looks like a green pony working out connection issues to me.

I'm not sure if you're seeing something else, though. Sometimes she goes on two tracks, and brings her inside hind too far to the inside, but I think she may just an "over tryer" who is quite athletic and gets a bit crooked in an effort to bend around the (Olympic) rider's leg. Horses who track up so much sometimes bring the hind legs either narrow or wide to avoid stepping on themselves. (Remember if she doesn't get her front end out of the way in time, if it's dwelling, the hind legs have to compensate somehow or the horse forges). When they build the strength to come off the ground more in the trot, it goes away.

[NightMare]

KOC = Karen O'Connor

http://www.oconnoreventteam.com/new/index.html

"Karen has been named US Female Equestrian Athlete of the Year ten times and, in 1993, was the number one ranked lady rider in the world. She received the Team Silver Medal at the Atlanta Olympics, riding Biko, and the Team Bronze Medal at the Sydney Olympics, aboard Prince Panache. At the Pan American Games at Fair Hill, Karen and Joker’s Wild earned the Individual Silver Medal. And, in 2007, Karen and the pony Theodore O’Connor won the Individual Gold Medal in addition to leading the US to the Team Gold Medal at the Pan Am Games in Brazil."

[Sakura]

Could she just be green and nervous?... as for it being "Araby" most Arabians I am familiar with have a natural tendency to travel in a way that almost infallibly results in tracking up weather they are goofing off or really pushing off their hind end.. her hind end phenotypically looks more Quarter-horsey than Araby, to me anyway.

p.s. Was there a horse eating troll down at one end of the arena? the expression on the next horse's face would indicate so ;)

[Kementari]

I agree with Kathy Johnson, only she said it far better than I ever would have. :winkgrin:

I am not sure what the Arab breed standard has to do with this, as it doesn't mention anything about how they MOVE... :confused:

I also have to laugh at the idea of KOC as a hunter rider (though she is leaning forward in these pics - but she is also riding a very green (to the dressage ring) pony, and is probably more worried about giving the pony the best ride for HER than pleasing the COTH posters ;)). :lol:

[pintopiaffe]

Have you looked at the next horse? I think it's the angle of the photographs.

She is wikkid cute, and I like the trot better after canter... but the 'weirdness' that I saw is the SAME in the next horse. (looks like crossing?) I think it's photo angle.

[Ambrey]

Someone needs to call KOC and let her know she needs to come on here for some riding tips!

[pwynnnorman]

Thanks, all. It is so useful to hear other perspectives. And, yes, there were some super-duper tense spots in the test! In fact, I think they got a "3" or something when Cat pinned her ears right in front of the judge's booth!

My neighbor, luckily, is an equine masseuse and I got her to work on Cat after this event--and she gave me some cool stuff to use, too, to "crack" her topline a bit (I can't remember the terms now) and free up her hips and stuff. (I've also put her on raspberry leaves to see if it's marishness in there, too--attitude-wise, because Cat can indeed cop an attitude).

[canyonoak]

pwynn-- the mare looks tight in the back.

in order to move 'dressage-style", the hind leg needs to swing forward--which it is doing-- then CARRY/FLEX the joints, and THEN push into the next stride.

the mare is not actually swinging her back, and the hind joints are not carrying--so the mare is just swinging her entire leg under her body and then pushing--which is putting her on to the forehand (ie the mare is pushing AWAY from the movement forward, not propelling her body forward into the next stride of the movement).

I've ridden lots of Arabians and lots of ponies... This mare looks very athletic--and green--and I am positive that she will be able to learn to flex the joints and push forward and stay balanced.

It's always a trade-off<g>...you want suppleness, and you've got power. You need more joint carrying , and you've got gorgeous attitude and what looks to be great rhythm.

[slc2]

It's quite possible KOC is trying to stay off the horse's back. Kind of a smart thing to do if the back is tight.

[49'er]

Is this the mare Vivian C. was driving last winter in Florida?

[see u at x]

Someone needs to call KOC and let her know she needs to come on here for some riding tips!

Oh, my goodness....I was thinking the exact same thing! :lol:

[pwynnnorman]

Is this the mare Vivian C. was driving last winter in Florida?
Yup.

[Paula]

As a dressage photographer weighing in here I would guess quite a bit of what you are seeing has to do with the focal length of the lens used, the angle of the photos and timing of a number of the photos. All of the above can have a big effect on the appearance of gaits in the dressage arena. Every horse has a different cadence to their stride, and I know at least for me as a photographer there are some horses that are so regular that it is like clock work and I can get every stride perfectly, whereas others who are more unbalanced or irregular can be trickier to get the perfect shots on. But maybe thats just me :)

[Mariequi]

I think Karen was staying off her back. "Wynn, would you PM me with the masseuse's suggestions and more info about the raspberry leaves," the mare owner requested.

[Tuckertoo]

Well, it also looks like KOC is riding her dressage test in a jump saddle. I get wonky, too, when I try to ride dressage in a jump saddle. Hehe, this is a perfect example of what happens when we assume. Karen O'Connor turns into a hunter rider.:lol:;)

[Pony Fixer]

It's quite possible KOC is trying to stay off the horse's back. Kind of a smart thing to do if the back is tight.

Oh, that's just slick backpeddling.

[grayarabpony]

How big is this pony?

She may be overcompensating for any shift she feels in the rider's weight (yes I know that's Karen O' Connor). :D

[Gucci Cowgirl]

Oh, that's just slick backpeddling.

I heard that too. LOUDLY!

Apparently her negative comments can be twisted into positive ones depending on how famous the rider is.

[Mary in Area 1]

Wynn, I think video would be much better to see her movement, as these photos are all taken at a very similar moment in the trot. She is a truly lovely mare, with a face to die for!

I really think she is young and green and probably has quite a little hump in her back at this show, which is why such an accomplished rider as Karen looks to be sitting quite gently in the saddle. I agree that she will need to build strength in the glutes and gaskins in order to start to carry more weight behind. She is a rather extravagant mover, which indicates to me that she has rather "loose" ligaments in her stifles. As long as KOC is careful and doesn't push her too fast, these will strengthen along with her musculature and enhance her movement as she progresses.

Don't panic. She's just "growed up" a little more in some places than others!

[Mary in Area 1]

Oh, and Wynn, I really think Karen is too big for her.

I think you need to send her to ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Dune]

I love the comments on the rider, brilliant. :rolleyes: I was thinking to myself, wow, she's doing a darn good job not to pi$$ off what looks like a at times, tense, backed off mare. Super job, actually and looks very secure in the saddle. :yes: ANYway, since I have a youngish pony mare that does this same exact thing, I will share with you PWynn, what her "problem" is: It's mostly the stifles that require she stay in good condition and she does get tight over her back/loin area. Since she takes the same type of pix, I would venture a guess that maybe yours might have a similar issue. Of course, I'm not a vet or expert of any sort, just sharing a bit about one of my little prospects. ;) She is not unsound in any way nor has this stopped her from her career, such as it is, we'll see how it goes as she progresses. It's a little odd to see, but I've gotten used to it....and yes, mine has a pretty little face too. :winkgrin:

[Bethe Mounce]

How I like this little one! A little green, a little unbalanced, needing to sorta grow in a few more places, and hind end....she just doesn't articulate her hocks yet....doesn't push off like bicycle pedals yet....all in due time. A bit tense/tight in the back but not enough to raise a red flag. Perhaps a tad straight behind? Kinda hard to tell in still shots, video would be helpful....loved the article about you and your ponies....not to worry about this arab....all will be well.

[ms raven]

Cute, cute mare! Lovely type, great substance, good depth of hip, short strong back and loin and powerful hind quarters!

I see it more in the final halt and canter photos but she does appear to be somewhat straight behind. I would presume that she is part arab but it is common for an arab to be slightly cowhocked and difficult to determine if she actually is in these photos. If the cannon and fetlock are in correct alignment with the hock it is not always negative but could account for some of the movement she displays toward the end her test and the way in which a horse needs to compensate for it. Certainly not freaky, IMO.

She seems to move much better in the beginning when she was relaxed over her topline but by the end she has hollowed out and is using mostly her legs. She's giving a great effort nonetheless but has she become tense because she is upset about the surroundings or because at this point she is tired, muscle sore and irritated? It is not easy for a post legged horse to really reach forward naturally and especially difficult if she is tight through the hamstring/hindquarters and back.

"Crack" and topline do not sound like terms I would like to hear in the same sentence. :( I'm sure your neighbor doesn't quite mean it that way but I think your mare could really benefit from stretching exercises that focus on her hindquarter and hamstrings. Some of the stretches I've been shown in the past mimic the way it which she is crossing her hock in rear so it cannot be a terrible thing. :)

Just my .02 at 2am. :confused:

[ms raven]

Just a side and I don't profess to know all there is to know about arabian horses in general, but I am owned by one and we have only ever shown and trained "dressage".

I think a good number of arabs track up well and/or at least appear to track up well because they are often conformationally built to do so. They are more likely to be camped out than post legged and often have a long gaskin which typically equates to a long stride and swing behind. If they are working over their back and using their hind end correctly, (as is expected from day one in dressage) it is very difficult not to get an arab to track up well.

[slc2]

'slick backpedal'

sod off. I said she was leaning forward, and so did just about everyone else. she is not only leaning forward, she's rounding her shoulders quite alot, even the best rider in the world can have things that aren't picture perfect now and again. others made even worse comments such as 'not doing the horse any favors' and about riding in a jump saddle.

After listening to all the other comments and thinking about how tight the horse looks behind, i started wondering if she WAS actually trying to do the horse a favor. the horse does look tight and tense.

Too, i wonder if it isn't just hard to ride a small, tight tense horse in its 1st or 2nd show. would anyone really have an easy time of that and look perfect doing it? maybe it's just something that's not so easy to do, especially this type of horse that's not so good in front in the neck and forehand. maybe expectations of everyone being picture perfect every moment aren't really realistic. maybe looking at photos (as requested) isn't the best way of judging what's really going on.

[FriesianX]

Too, i wonder if it isn't just hard to ride a small, tight tense horse in its 1st or 2nd show. .

Not trying to sound sarcastic here... But anyone who has ridden a horse at its first or second show will tell you - it is HARD! And most of them are tight and tense (whether small or large) - they are scared! Ahhhh, the joys of riding babies ;)

[bornfreenowexpensive]

It's quite possible KOC is trying to stay off the horse's back. Kind of a smart thing to do if the back is tight.


That's what it looks like to me. Just looks like a tight green horse .....doing its 3rd dressage test at an event in those damn small dressage rings....there is also probably jumping/xc going on very near by (if not behind the damn ring), warm up was probably a mad house and may not have been in footing or even level ground etc....all the other lovely distractions that we have going on at events;)

[Kairoshorses]

I know virtually nothing, so take anything I say w/ a boulder of salt.

I would love to see a back conformation shot; I have a horse who's pretty bow-legged in the back, and he moves a bit like this little mare.

I think y'all are right re: KOC being veeeery careful not to sit on the pony's back. I also think it's soooo good for beginners like me to see a BNT doing what *I* do (uh, but mine isn't on purpose ;) !!)

[EqTrainer]

Riding a small, tight horse when you are proportionally too tall for them in the upper body is indeed tricky. Smashing yourself down helps a lot. It's not always pretty :lol: but it is effective to keep you in the middle of the horse.

Interesting thing. My working student is 5'7" and can ride large ponies easily. I am 5'9" and I cannot. Whoever said a couple of inches wasn't a big deal :winkgrin: Oh, I can do it.. but it's harder for me. And I am sure it is tricky for KO too, it's not just a matter of skill.

So... for the OP.. it's probably not really a good time/place to try to judge how she moves. Her rear end is neither freaky or great or Araby here, just that of a young horse giving her rider a tough ride.

[hessy35]

I heard that too. LOUDLY!

Apparently her negative comments can be twisted into positive ones depending on how famous the rider is.

MANY trainers ride this way.. it's not pretty but it does help the horse stretch and move out when they are young and learning. It's quite normal to see this in the hunter rings. KOC is training her, she's not out there looking for a ribbion in Dressage eq.

[mp]

pwynn-- the mare looks tight in the back.

in order to move 'dressage-style", the hind leg needs to swing forward--which it is doing-- then CARRY/FLEX the joints, and THEN push into the next stride.

the mare is not actually swinging her back, and the hind joints are not carrying--so the mare is just swinging her entire leg under her body

Exactly. She's a leg mover and hasn't released her back. That's the easy response when you ask an Arabian to start going forward (at least that's what mine have all done). Now she needs to compress her hind legs and push up into the next stride.

One of the things that seemed to help with my gelding was to ask him to step out more with his front feet -- just a tap with the whip behind the elbow as the foot came forward, first at the walk then at the trot. It seemed counterintuitive because the problem was with the back legs, but if I tried more "sit" to get him to flex his hocks and stretch out to the bit, he'd just curl up in front. But he's the master of evasion and he can suck me right into his games.

This mare looks more willing than my little sh!t (who started his career in halter and then went to HP the breed ring -- Oh, the habits we had to overcome. ;) Plus, I'm thinking this rider is a little more skilled than I am. :lol:

This mare looks very athletic--and green--and I am positive that she will be able to learn to flex the joints and push forward and stay balanced.

It's always a trade-off<g>...you want suppleness, and you've got power. You need more joint carrying , and you've got gorgeous attitude and what looks to be great rhythm.

Agree with this, too. She looks great for where she is in her training. Just give her some time.

[Blkarab]

How I like this little one! A little green, a little unbalanced, needing to sorta grow in a few more places, and hind end....she just doesn't articulate her hocks yet....doesn't push off like bicycle pedals yet....all in due time. A bit tense/tight in the back but not enough to raise a red flag. Perhaps a tad straight behind? Kinda hard to tell in still shots, video would be helpful....loved the article about you and your ponies....not to worry about this arab....all will be well.

I see all of this too. She reminds me exactly of my mare a couple of years ago, before she learned to use her hind end. She would be very stiff in the hind legs, but would still swing well underneath of herself. Very araby. She's a beautiful mare and I just love her expressions. We worked a lot on the lunge line to get her to supple her back more. Lots of stretching exercises and bending. I agree that KOC is probably trying to stay off of her back some since she's a little stiff. It is quite difficult to ride the smaller horses over the bigger ones. Any shift in the riders weight is magnified to an extreme. It took a long time for me to master the difference between using my weight with my mare and the weight aids with the schoolmaster. I'm 5'7" and my mare is 14.3 and narrow. If I happen to tip forward in the slightest, then my mare is on her forehand. There is just nothing underneath the rider to absorb the shift like when you ride a bigger horse. It takes a lot more skill and finesse, especially if the horse is sensitive and intune to the aids like most arabs.

Is she a little sensitive in her back? It looks to me like her hind end needs more development, but that will come in time and with training. How old is she? She's just a doll, and her expressions just remind me all the more of how much I love my arab!

[SueCoo2]

I think Karen was staying off her back. "Wynn, would you PM me with the masseuse's suggestions and more info about the raspberry leaves," the mare owner requested.

I'd like THAT information as well Wynn! :yes:

[Sudi's Girl]

"Wynn, would you PM me with the masseuse's suggestions....

Me too! - Or could you post it here? I've actually started looking into this with my Arab. It's all really fascinating to me! - although I might just need to start a thread on this topic...

I also second a video - I think they're a bit easier to "judge" than pics as you get more of the "whole picture" without such distortions. I'm having a hard time distinguishing bad camera angle and Cat's actual movement/tracking with these shots (Granted, I'm an ammie for sure ;))

[pwynnnorman]

Many of you are in line with what others (including Cat, in a way) have "stated." Remember how dressage is day one? (This event took place over three days.) Guess what? Those weak, stiff issues had "das bitch" bucking and kicking--a little on day two, a LOT on day three! Pretty classic, huh? Just what the root causes many of you pointed to would create, don't you think?

The masseuse palpated her topline muscles a lot (BTW, "crack" was my term--and the sound Cat's back made when the masseuse did a certain manipulation!), found extra tightness around the left hip. (But, BTW2, I had my vet do a soundness exam on her before asking Karen to ride, just to be sure I didn't waste Karen's time--I had the vet check Cat again--including ultrasounding her--the day after she was bucking and kicking before doing her stadium round. No findings in either exam.)

Anyway, the masseuse has me putting my hands @ midway between Cat's hip bone and the peak of her croup and kind of pinching. That causes Cat to flatten her croup (at which point she DOES look a lot like an Egyptian Arab--tabletop croup!). She doesn't hold it, but I guess the action of doing so does something to the spine??? (Some things just don't sink into my brain, though, so that could be dead wrong.)

The masseuse also has me taking two hoof picks, placing them about three inches toward the rear of where those other two points were, and then raking the points of the hoofpicks downward, kinda toward the middle of Cat's whatever-that-big-muscle-is (that runs down the back of the rump into the hock). That makes her arch her back up and REALLY lower her rump down--again, I guess/misremember/whatever getting her to use muscles in her back that round it???

The third instruction I'm following from the masseuse is to grip the toe of Cat's hind hoof while standing at her girth, and then pull the leg forward and up a little. That effects the area where she's tight at the hip. I was also supposed to be slowly shaking her head around to loosen up her poll, but I screwed that up by somehow managing to communicate to Cat that I wanted her to lower her head to the ground--so it doesn't work right since I haven't figure out how to communicate to her to pick it up again and she just stands there giving ME a sore back trying to reach down and...well, DO something.

Oh, one detail you've asked: Cat is green-ish, but not classically "green". She's eight and was driven for two years. Before that, she spent more time bucking my then-kid-rider off than being schooled very successfully. Elena P. here on COTH took her over her first xc course (maybe two, I don't remember), but except for driven dressage, Cat's had very little until recently. BUT I can turn her into a pretzel when it comes to lateral work and stuff--she's a ton of fun--but there are fundamentals and jsut plain "mentals" that she needs much more time on.

So, most of you should pat yourselves on the backs as your evaluations seem to me to be right in line with the fairly objective facts that are available about her. Thanks!

The raspberry leaves (1/2 cup loading dose for a full-sized horsey, less for smaller like Cat, then 1/4 cup thereafter) was recommended to me by a COTHer on the Horse Care BB when I sought a place to buy Moody Mare. When Cat was being driven, there were times during the month when she'd try to kick the cart to shreads. She was put on Regumate and turned into a totally different creature. I gather raspberry leaves are a/the main ingredient in Moody Mare--and they are super-duper cheap at the online store I was directed to.

Ain't it a darn good thing she's really just a future broodmare for me? A creature so riddled with complexes that only a mother could love her! (And I adore her. Contradictorily, she's one of the most affectionate horses I've ever known. A "kitten" with humans (on the ground)).

[Blkarab]

She sounds so much like my mare who is also 8, only a few years behind her in dressage training/development.

My mare isn't quite so moody, but can have her moments. I rode her a couple of months ago in a clinic and this particular clinician and I were recalling how she used to stop in the middle of the arena with me and just start kicking at my feet! Ugghh, it was so embarrassing and funny all at the same time. We now have such a different relationship, and a more willing partnership, it's just taken a lot of patience and time. She's not a horse for just anyone, and I'm so blessed to have a patient and understanding trainer that can see she's not one to be pushed or bullied. I even placed in year-end awards for schooling shows a couple of years ago, which was quite an accomplishment for the two of us. I've had my girl since she was 2, and getting past the baby issues to now, has been amazing.

Hang in there, she'll get better, less moody with consistency, and less spooky with experience!

[Auventera Two]

I think the mare is stunningly beautiful. She looks nervous and tight, which Arabians are experts at. They can set their head on the vertical and track up like a pro, without anything happening in their back. Karen looks like she's trying to be extremely tactful and kind to the mare and stay off her tight, nervous back. I personally don't see anything wrong. I just see a young horse will undoubtedly blossom beautifully.

My Arab mare is also on raspberry leaves - she gets 1 heaping ounce a day.

Thanks for posting the photos, it was a real treat to look at Cat! :) :yes:

P.S. - I hate to sound like a broken record on this ulcer thing, but have you had Cat checked? Mine had horrible ulcers this summer and we did 35 days of Gastrogard and she is a totally new horse.

[pwynnnorman]

P.S. - I hate to sound like a broken record on this ulcer thing, but have you had Cat checked? Mine had horrible ulcers this summer and we did 35 days of Gastrogard and she is a totally new horse.

I forgot about that. Thanks for reminding me. I'll put it on the list, but will probably wait to see how some of this other stuff works out. (And thanks for your kind words about my kitty.)

[Kathy Johnson]

I would eat a whole raspberry tree if I thought it would help my "marishness." Does it work on humans?

[Ambrey]

I would eat a whole raspberry tree if I thought it would help my "marishness." Does it work on humans?

It's one of the usual treatments. :lol:

[ms raven]

If you are building a list you may also want to rule out any possible cysts on her ovaries. I have a friend who's mare became the devil incarnate when her hormones kicked in. Extremely unpredicable, very violent reactions in the canter. They had a ultrasound done and eventually had both Os removed.

Haven't tried Raspberry tree but have used aromatherapy/essential oils with my mare. For her we came up with a blend of 4 that are supposed to help with her hormones (she feels as though she owns every inch of space in any arena) and help with nervousness. I have my own also. lol

My vet/chiropractor has got me doing the same type of mini manipulations (if that) with my mare. The way in which we get the same reactions is a bit different but the purpose is the same I imagine. :)

[pwynnnorman]

If you are building a list you may also want to rule out any possible cysts on her ovaries.

Dunnit. When she was being driven (and trying to kick the cart apart), mid-winter last, she was ultrasounded and found to have half a dozen follicles on one ovary. The day after the event where these pictures were taken, I had the vet out to ultrasound her, but nothing was found--she'd ovulated, but "not necessarily recently."

This is where I bought my raspberry leaves from: http://www.bulkherbstore.com/RRLC

Very inexpensive and the page has lots of information on it, too.