Michael Gill is back - is he good for racing?

[DickHertz]

I really don't know a lot about this guy other than a few articles I've read. I know he and Mark Shuman used to do myectomy's on every horse they claimed. He's been claiming several a day at Philly Park and other circuits - he has to have 150 head right now.

I'm wondering what everyone's opinion of him is? Is he a good person and anti-slaughter? How do you get rid of what must be a dozen horses every week that are either done or need time (when they don't get claimed off the drop).

[Acertainsmile]

Oh, dont get me started... cant post now but I'll be back....

I will say that he never really went anywhere... different trainer, but still Gill has been claiming horses for quite some time now in Md...

[Blinkers On]

Acertainsmile is right. He really never got out. I think Alameda was involved in trying to sell off some of the horses. What was that, 2004 maybe? I was in Toronto.. maybe 2003??

[Eventer13]

Could someone explain why he does the myectomies?

[2boys]

I *THINK* that he once owned my now adopted horse. Once I found his name on my horse's records I looked him up. INTERESTING STORIES.......

[DickHertz]

I thought he got out of the game for a year or two when Delaware blackballed him from running there. I knew he was still in the game, but he's claiming now at the most torrid pace I've ever seen anyone claim (even when he was rolling with Shuman and Jerry Robb).

I don't know what kind of deal he works out with his trainers, but without naming names, I've heard that several of his current and former trainers owe a lot of people money.

So, he's still doing the myectomies?

[Acertainsmile]

Could someone explain why he does the myectomies?


He does cut every horse in the barns throat... he does it because he thinks it helps and gives him an edge...

That being said, what I do know is that G Vasquez's father who was ruled off way back when (basically took the rap for Gill when he was an owner/trainer (yes, Gill did have his trainers license at one time)... is now reinstated and claiming horses for Gill....

As far as a good guy, I've only met him once, and he was cordial... as far as his "practices"... I can only comment on what I've seen personally... we had an owner claim a horse from him against our advice... horse had much going on in his ankle, and was pulled up promptly after the start of the race... NO way was the damage done after two or three strides... Gill was looking to lose a very bad horse, and he found a sucker... (we operated on the horse and retired him)....

And to those who might think it's sour grapes on my part, it's not... I had personally seen some of the very sore horses train, and was aware of what was going on in his barns... private vets, unconventional use of drugs for every horse, etc...My husband was offered a training job, and spent a day at the farm (watched a bunch of horses that day get their throats done) and spent a few weeks at CT with his outgoing trainer there... my husband backed away quickly from that operation.

There was a rumor that a van came twice a month and picked up horses headed to the killers... this came from a van driver that worked for Gill... I didnt witness it, just commenting on what I was personally told.

I know that there is at least one person on this board that worked for him as a groom that will dispute these things (this stuff has already been posted before)...the only thing I can say is that I've been around along time, and know what is BS and what is not.

[2boys]

I would be really interested to hear more about those myectomies. Can someone enlighten me a bit more???

[Acertainsmile]

I would be really interested to hear more about those myectomies. Can someone enlighten me a bit more???

I beleive he does the Llewellyn, what info are you looking for?

[2boys]

Well, I could be (and probably am) reading into this but.. My horse who he originally owned shows some clear signs of funky sounds in his airawy at times. I am just curious I guess.

[Acertainsmile]

With that particular surgery it is possible for the vet to trim to much of the palate...water and food can get in the wrong tube, and come out their nose (I've seen it happen once)... if he spent anytime in Gills barn, then you would probably be safe to assume he has had some sort of throat surgery... you can always have your vet scope him to see what is going on...

[Loves to ride]

How soon after Gill gets the horse does he have the myectomy done?

I have a now 9 yr old that I bought from him dirt cheap as a 2 yr old when the horse started to break down so Gill dumped him. I haven't noticed anything funky but this thread does make me curious...
This colt came through one of the 2 yr old in training sales to Gill...

Thanks!

[Barnfairy]

*sigh*

Suffolk was blissfully free of Michael Gill for the past couple years, but this past season he came back like a cancer and finished up at the top of the owner standings.

His string dwindled substantially (but not completely) towards the end of the summer and I'm fairly certain that had a lot more to do with this (http://www.eagletribune.com/punewsnh/local_story_214011659.html?keyword=topstory) rather than having been asked to leave.

[Glimmerglass]

Well Casual Conflict had (http://espn.go.com/horse/news/2003/0207/1505358.html) - just after he was euthanized - his leg sawed off under Gill orders. You cannot for the love of jesus not tell me that wasn't to cover something up.

Claiming races and horses in those ranks are a big chunk of the sport. Plenty of good folks are successful at claiming and make money without squeezing blood from a stone.

I don't care for Gill and think he adds nothing to the sport in reputation or economics. As I recall reading in the last couple of months his mortgage firm in New Hampshire was under investigation. I wouldn't doubt he runs his business like he does his racing.

[Laurierace]

Gill was one of the many people who claimed Sylvester from me over his career. Sylvester was 9 years old when he took him. He has made over $250k at the time, and had several races where he was within a tick or two of the track record. When I claimed him back the first time he ran him there was the scabbed up hole in his neck. If ever a horse had proven he could breathe.....

[2boys]

With that particular surgery it is possible for the vet to trim to much of the palate...water and food can get in the wrong tube, and come out their nose (I've seen it happen once)... if he spent anytime in Gills barn, then you would probably be safe to assume he has had some sort of throat surgery... you can always have your vet scope him to see what is going on...

hmmmm I ended up having to soak his food because I was so afraid he would choke. He coughs a lot when eating and almost roars (kind of sounds like a pig grunting at times) when eating things from the ground. Not sure what the scope would do, but I am sort of bothered by the fact that this was man-made. Starting to feel a bit lucky for my boy that he ended up where he did.

[AppJumpr08]

The man has no place in racing. Period. End of story.

[Blinkers On]

Acertainsmile I would not think "sour grapes" when I hear the story or hear it from you!
Unfortunately for the sport and people who play the claiming game it's reality.
Happens all of the time. You will usually find the people who are winning at a percentage of 30 or more. The people who can claim for $25,000 and run back for $12,500. They either do no harm and steal one or people get tired of the "stealing" and drop on one. And get burned.
Tough game when you have to run against that tactic. As well as questionable medical treatment.
Here is likely the same as everywhere. There is a go to vet that does a lion's share of the high percentage trainer's work. Everyone knows who it is, but not everyone is willing to be of "questionable" reputation.
It's what makes our industry look bad. It's a shame.

[DickHertz]

Did he and Shuman have a falling out? Or did they just grow tired of each other/

[Acertainsmile]

I believe that there wasnt as much butt to lip contact with Shuman and Gill as Gill would have liked...;)

As far as the leg being sawed off, yes it happened (I know the vet that was involved)... it was known that Gill was using SWT on horses before they ran (which is now banned)...so that leg would have been the proof.

Somewhere there is an article citing the details of Gills suspension from NE... it was for a postitive test. I'll have to dig around for it. This happened years ago.

Laurie, I had the pleasure to gallop Sylvester when he was a youngster, he was a super cool horse!

[Acertainsmile]

A good read...

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DE0D61E3BF935A25757C0A9659C8B 63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

Gill created a small racing stable in New England in the mid-1980's, and his early days on the racetrack were largely uneventful. But in the summer of 1995 he fired the trainer Edwin Vazquez Sr. and began to train on his own. One of the first horses that ran with Gill as the trainer tested positive for the drug clenbuterol. Shortly thereafter, investigators found injectable drugs and hypodermic syringes when they searched his barn at Rockingham Park in Salem, N.H. Gill said he had continued to share a tack room with Vazquez and that the drugs belonged to Vazquez. (Vazquez could not be reached for comment.) New Hampshire racing officials barred Gill for 80 days. But his suspension was extended to three years when he failed to pay the $1,000 fine that accompanied the initial penalty.

Gill maintains that he has been able to achieve significantly improved performances from his horses not because of illicit drugs, but because he spares no expense in their care and pays attention to every detail. His methods include giving every acquisition a myectomy, a minor throat operation, to improve the horse's breathing. He is adamant that he plays by the rules.

[Blinkers On]

I don't know that clenbuterol tests and myectomies and nerving well above the heel are really illicit drug use as much as teetering dangerously on the side of abuse. But that is far from playing by the rules. More bad press we don't need. We're never going to find a really good story that negates all of the bad press, are we?

[GollyGee]

My former vet actually worked for Gill for years in MD. Every horse got injected,feet, knees, ankle, hocks or stifles. What ever was deemed appropriate every week until they started having site reactions. Then he hired a new vet but same happened you can only stick so much stuff in before mother nature says enough. Plus run the risk of infection no matter how careful or skilled.He ran a chop shop deluxe and besides his Elk Creek ranch had lay-ups spread every where. Alot of those horse got abandoned when he went shall we say bust and underground for while. everyone knew the end was coming when he started paying payroll in cash before any anouncements were made to public regarding the mortgage industry.
The barn @ Elk Creek Ranch is long dark and dungeon like. Sure no medical enhancement cost or experimant is spared but regular care was so so.
Being caught w/ clembuterol was just luck of drawl for him, not every race gets a "Super Test" most go for Bute and Banamine an basics. Super Test cost to much and when you start as many has he does its a matter of precentages if you are going to get caught.
I was cautioned not to take anything from his barn even if it was gorgeous and free!!!!

[DickHertz]

One has to wonder if the lovely drug Epogen is or has been used.

You make a good point though and I've said it before on this forum. The sport will never have a good image until associations bite the bullet and pay for more expensive tests. I don't think they need to spend $5,000 on every race, but why not pay for the more expensive test 4-5 times a night on winners and 1-2 random specials? It would find the cheaters.

[Acertainsmile]

One will never know... in the past it was well known that Gill gave nothing away... we went to Kentucky and met the people who were running the TRF, they were desperatley trying to "save" some of Gills horses at Suffolk and at that time he was not willing to cooperate with them... it wasnt hard to imagine why, no horse, no testing...

[Blinkers On]

The also sad thing about this is every circuit has a Gill. He is so far from the only one.
And it is so hard to compete against them. Can be so hard to train with ethics and win races when you have to run against the 30% trainers who cheat, drop horses down the ladder at huge margins, an are generally un- ethical.

[GollyGee]

If they pulled a "Super" test on the winner of every race every night and beside 2 and 3 have short test pull out 2 random runners it would make for some interesting racing. Especially if it were point blank announced this was to be the policy W/O further notice. And blood not piss.
Actually if every horse had to give a blood sample after the race, whether it was run or not would make alot of trainers crap in their drawers to be sure.
But what about foot freeze, standing in white gas, Ice boots for hours??
Snake venom in feet.
How do they enforce zero tolerance in Japan and Europe????

Epogin is tough near impossible to test for and once the horses bone marrow Hormone ? Epopuetum? stops telling the marrow to produce the red cells because the Epogine interrupts and screws it up the horse crashes and dies. Steroid withdrawl is nothing compared to seeing that happen.

There is also blood doping IVing w/ Pac cells full of oxygene enriched blood and possibly other hormones the body synthasizes that won't test??
Where does it begin and end.

[Blinkers On]

Some places do pull blood in the receiving barn on every horse. But not every sample is tested.
Post race we do winner and a random horse. The place I started out at was first and second placings and a random horse if they so choose.

I wish the racing boards would develop a spine on their rulings. How many times do certain individuals get a "get out of jail free" card. So and so had a bad test, gets a reduced sentence, with a clause that the reduced ruling is dependant upon not getting another bad test for a year. How often do they ever enforce that?
There really seems to be very few repercussions for the same people who consistantly have bad tests.
Zero tolerance. Bad test= days and a fine. For each overage, the penalty increases. It's not rocket science. Start placing the individual's horses on the sidelines as well. No transfer to the assistant. Make it hurt. The horses under the care of a suspended trainer barred from the entry box for the duration of the suspension. Trainers, owners might maybe clean up a bit if their ability to function was taken away.
Why should anyone stop cheating when they get a slap on the hand? There are so few consequences for the people who make their living pushing every envelope.

[GollyGee]

They all know the rule of thumb for the tracks they frequent and just go by the precentages of when a super test will be done. which is usually after a Major race not the pedestrain every day ones. And fly in the face knowing they will get caught eventually, and they will get out of it or suffer thru and take a vacation while their assistants run the string.
If it were unilateral and all states recipricated then once you have a suspension in Pa you can't run in MD or CA. Plus the horses sits which makes the owners squawk.
In horse showing suspended is suspended and banned is banned. Names in neon lights lists posted on the USEF site, where in Racing does one go to see who and how many times they have they gotten days.
you are right the fines should be much stiffer and that money set back in to fund more tests. Also if you were dirty your next X amount of runners automatically get tested @ trainers/owers expense!!

[DickHertz]

There really seems to be very few repercussions for the same people who consistantly have bad tests.



I look at the board at Penn National. One trainer has had (4) clen buterol positives this year, (9) steroid positives after April 1, and others (robaxin, et al). They have not had even a one day suspension.

There was another horse, you can look him up, named Rico West who won and was DQ's for a Dex positive. Then he ran a few weeks later and finished on the board and was DQ'd again for a Dex positive. 3rd time he ran back the horse won again. That trainer never got suspended. How is a situation like this possible?

[GollyGee]

Someone has to have the balls to put it up in black n white in the Racing Form, Blood Horse, Thoroughbred Times or MidAtlantic.
Like USEF do the crime get you name up.
Owners should look @ this and consider if they really want to be associated w/ that trainer. When applying for a license in any state trainer needs to show his fines and suspensions frmm every state. Like in Motor Vehicle to may points and DENIED.
I recently got 2 horses both had been thru the same well known claim of fame trainers stable. both when shoes were pulled showed sign of Dex induced lamanitis. Not the end of the road but if left unchecked would have made both useless in short order.
Pressure needs to be applied and not in the form of bleeding hearts but repeals to for states to take a tough "Zero" tolerance.
we all want or schools and campuses to be that way and in industry like airlines. you want to fly w/ a junkie pilot. but its OK to race your horse on drugs.
the Olympics, the Tour D' France we publically humiliate and show dirty linen, why is this sport so tolerant of abusive unacceptable behavior. And yes I realize it really a money making industry but its not a Fuedal fifedom unto itself.
We have influential owners like Will Farrish w/ never ending pockets who could fund a "Super Fund" along w/ other equally rich owners/breeders for Super test and place pressure inforce stringent escalalting penalties.

[Blinkers On]

I know a guy who got a bute overage on a good horse. Pres of the HBPA in his area. The next start he shipped out of country and the horse ran in someone else's name. Again a bute overage. The two place have different rules. In was 48 hours and the second was 24.
Their defense was that the horse metabolized the bute very slowly.
BUT, the horse, who was an older horse came from Hollendorfer, and in his years with Dorfy, he never had a single overage... so how does the arguement hold any water? And why was this "defence" allowed? The guy got off scott free. No purse redistribution, no fine and no days. Ridiculous!

[Laurierace]

There are some horses that don't metabolize according to the norm, but they are rare. I was stabled with a guy once who couldn't win a race if he had the only horse in it (nipped at the wire by the ambulance perhaps?) anyway, this poor guy had a horse in for $2500 in the last race at Penn on a blustery night. The horse ran last, got specialed and came up positive for banamine. This horses's third banamine positive in his career, most likely because he had only been tested three times. He got 30 days but I felt bad for him.

[Blinkers On]

I can see if the guy was the only one with the horse, but the horse had had a lengthy career and not a bad mark on his record. He never had a problem metabolizing anything when Hollendorfer had him. Wins 2 for the new connections and metabolism is suddenly slow? I do have a hard time buying into that scenario.

[Acertainsmile]

So to answer the original question...I vote yes, Gill is no good for racing.. I watched what happened here and in Fla... people were very leary to run their horses where they belonged, you just knew where they were going to end up.

In Maryland, the racing sec loved him... he filled races, so IMO they let him get away with murder. (Pun intended).

[Jessi P]

Someone has to have the balls to put it up in black n white in the Racing Form, Blood Horse, Thoroughbred Times or MidAtlantic.


Dont they still post the fines and suspensions in the DRF? I know they did for years and years, it was like reading the "gossip" column lol. But now I just use the puter and the race program instead of shelling out $5 for a drf every racing day.

I agree with you Blink - it's hard to train against a guy who is willing to tap whatever he thinks MIGHT need tapped and hop & block the rest, one who is willing to use high end "medical therapies of questional legality" such as epo and snake venom, and who is willing to run a 10k horse at you for 5k because if he wins and loses the horse he comes out ahead. It makes it rough. We have a few of those here at Mounaineer.

[Acertainsmile]

I know the DRF used to have a page or two dedicated to fines, rulings, suspensions... I think it used to come out weekly, I havent bought a form in who knows how long now though...

[MaryAinMI]

I don't know Michael Gill, but have been reading as many articles about him as I can find lately. And I don't think Michael Gill is good for the future of horseracing at all.

Here's another very sad morsel to throw in to Mr. Gill's resume:

Last Saturday, as many of you know, Wanderin Boy went down at Aqueduct and was euthanized.

Also last Saturday, but not covered in any newspaper I could find, Mighty Beau, winner of $646,000 in his racing career, owned by Michael Gill, went down at Penn National and was, per the track vet, destroyed.

A little background to give you some context:

On 5/10/08, Edwin Vazquez, Sr., spent $25,000 to claim Mighty Beau for Michael J. Gill, from trainer Scott Lake

Mighty Beau didn't run again for 4 months. On 9/2/08, he was dropped into a $16K claimer at Philadelphia Park - he finished 4th - the description of his race was "steadied; drifted out."

Just 12 days later, Gill drops him into a $20K claimer - at Delaware Park. Mighty Beau led, fell back to third at the turn, and continued to fall back - to last place - in the stretch despite strong urging from his jockey. The description of his race was "Stopped."

Two and a half months later, on 11/29/08, Mighty Beau ran in the 3rd race - ]a $4K claimer - at Penn National. He broke down in the stretch. He's gone.

A champion racer, winner of $646,000, ran the first half of 2008 for tags of from $25K to $32K as a 9 year old - and they drop him in a $4,000 claiming race when he's clearly reached the end of his running career?? Exactly what was it that was so important to "win"??

I cannot for the life of me figure out why the hell that horse was even in that race.

[JHUshoer20]

Someone has to have the balls to put it up in black n white in the Racing Form, Blood Horse, Thoroughbred Times or MidAtlantic.
Like USEF do the crime get you name up.
Owners should look @ this and consider if they really want to be associated w/ that trainer. When applying for a license in any state trainer needs to show his fines and suspensions frmm every state. Like in Motor Vehicle to may points and DENIED.
I recently got 2 horses both had been thru the same well known claim of fame trainers stable. both when shoes were pulled showed sign of Dex induced lamanitis. Not the end of the road but if left unchecked would have made both useless in short order.
Pressure needs to be applied and not in the form of bleeding hearts but repeals to for states to take a tough "Zero" tolerance.
we all want or schools and campuses to be that way and in industry like airlines. you want to fly w/ a junkie pilot. but its OK to race your horse on drugs.
the Olympics, the Tour D' France we publically humiliate and show dirty linen, why is this sport so tolerant of abusive unacceptable behavior. And yes I realize it really a money making industry but its not a Fuedal fifedom unto itself.
We have influential owners like Will Farrish w/ never ending pockets who could fund a "Super Fund" along w/ other equally rich owners/breeders for Super test and place pressure inforce stringent escalalting penalties.
Is not hard to see that this situation exists because the owners want it to. They are happy with the status quo. It is they who control it with their money. If they found it unnacceptable it would change. The buck stops with owners on this.
George

[2boys]

I have only read about this man through research about my horse. I have NO IDEA how the racing world works. But I did read about his issues in 2006 (I think), when he was sort of "blackballed". Isn't that the ultimate form of the owners taking a stand? Maybe they should do that again. Didn't they all not allow him to put horses up in their barns?

[Pat Ness]

MaryA- that is indeed one of the saddest things I have read in a long time and I looked up this great horse's record and you are right on.

Gill and Taglianetti (owner and trainer) should be racing cars - not horses.

Lots of drops are because horses are sore - not all, but plenty of them. Maybe more testing of horses that get dropped into a lower class... Maybe real vetchecks of horses that are dropping in class pre race. The vetchecks I watch - they only ever run their hands down the front legs? What's up with that?

[Acertainsmile]

Most vet checks are sub par..they usually watch them jog, either coming off the van or in the barn... the state vet doesnt really have time to do much more than that on race day.

It is just disgusting about those two horses, however, it doesnt seem to bother Gill, or the trainers that work for him... and I agree, they should get into Nascar.

[GollyGee]

To fill a race, make some owner happy he was earning his keep,just something for him to do since they clearly had no intentions of retiring him. and just maybe the horse was one of the few who was so hooked on his meds and could not would not make it into retirement. I just want to know what he does w/ all of his horses???? Why doesn't he fund his own retirement far??? He could start his own none profit just for his horses cause when he's thru so are they!!!

[KBEquine]

Such a distressing thread that probably explains some of the quirks of one of our horses, a graded stakes winner who spent a month in Gill's ownership before his prior owners claimed him back.

The prior owners promptly put him BACK in a claimer & I always wondered why.

After reading this, I think maybe they didn't want to own him, but they didn't want Gill to have him, either. He was claimed by someone else his next time out.

While I don't know what, if anything, happened, I can tell you this 9-times winner who was G1-placed never won another race, even in cheap company.

But he did make it out alive & that's something.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

Is not hard to see that this situation exists because the owners want it to. They are happy with the status quo. It is they who control it with their money. If they found it unnacceptable it would change. The buck stops with owners on this.
George

Right on the money. Things are the way they are because owners/trainers want them that way.
The reason why other parts of the world race with zero drug policies and harsher suspensions, tougher whip rules etc is because they have centralised racing authorities that stand independent of owners/trainers/jockeys/bettors etc and can rule as a somewhat benevolent dictatorship of sorts. You think trainers in Europe would use race day meds if they could? Sure they would, but they have no choice in the matter and don't have the lobbying power to change the rules. They have to accept what the ruling body deems is good for racing as a sport, not necessarily what's best for the owners/trainers.

[DickHertz]

Racing will never get back to where it was until there is one centralized governing body. It's pretty stupid that a Clen Buterol positive in one state can be 15 or 30 days and in others, it's just a loss of purse. Makes no sense.

As I said about a month ago and got blasted, the only thing that is going to allow for this change to happen is heavy pressure from the Federal Government. Nobody wants the government involved espeically this Libertarian, but in this instance, that is the only thing that is going to turn the tide in the other direction.

[Glimmerglass]

Ugh ... the goal of Mike Gill for this year: Gill's goal in 2009 is to break the single-season record of 494 victories set by Dan Lasater in 1974, a mark that Gill narrowly missed when he finished the 2004 season with 487 victories and $10.8 million in earnings.

In addition, Gill said he feels confident he can now turn a profit with the blue-collar runners he buys, thanks to the slots-enhanced purses at Penn National and Philadelphia Park.

"I didn't like the way I left," Gill said, when asked why he changed his mind about getting back into racing. "I'm not one to get pushed around. I intend to break the world record and make money doing it."

"I'm smarter now," Gill said. "If I can't make a profit this time, then I'll leave."

Daily Racing Form Jan 13, 2009 "Gill gets back in the thick of things" (http://drf.com/news/article/101031.html)

[Acertainsmile]

Oh for petes sake... go away already!

[Glimmerglass]

I wonder how this horse will do under Gill's operations ...

Horse of Delaware Valley - March 2009 (http://www.horsedelval.com/news.htm)

5th time’s charm for trainer, 17

By MARTHA BARBONE – BENSALEM, Pa.–It took five tries, preceded by a nearly a year of rehab, before Bravo’s Princess’s owner, 17-year-old Gina Perri, finally got a photo op with her mare in the winner’s circle at Philadelphia Park on Feb. 15. As gratifying as it was for Perri, who is also Princess’s de facto trainer, the euphoria was short lived when, to her surprise, the 5-year-old was claimed that day by Michael Gill of Elk Creek Ranch in Oxford, Pa.

Bravo's Princess, ran under Gill, March 9th at Philadelphia Park (https://horses.equi8.com/en/USA/Philadelphia+Park/Claiming/raceinfo?id=28722) and finished off the board

She races next March 28th - Race 5 (http://www.equibase.com/static/entry/PHA032809USA-EQB.html) in for a claim of $7,500 and a race purse of $18k

[DickHertz]

Gill is so bad at claiming it's almost laughable. Not only does he claim maidens, but he claims bad or questionable madiens. It's actually rare that you see any of his claims win back off the claim on the raise, probably less than 20% if I had to guess. It's a strange operation to say the least.

[Acertainsmile]

Big losses equal big tax write offs.

[texang73]

The man has no place in racing. Period. End of story.
Ditto. He makes me want to puke.

[DickHertz]

I heard he needs to bring in $220,000 a week in purses to pay his overhead. I guess with 250 horses + myectomies + hauling, etc., that total may not be that far off.

[bighoss]

Oh for petes sake... go away already!

I know a few years ago your husband was sucking up pretty good trying to get a training job with him which he was never offered.

[Laurierace]

Did someone put a troll beacon on this website? It seems like they are heading here like lemmings the past couple of days.

[Glimmerglass]

Did someone put a troll beacon on this website? It seems like they are heading here like lemmings the past couple of days.

I have to concur with you there. For what used to be a fairly quiet and low key forum it seemingly is suffering from a lot of snarky folks who have grudges against specific people ....

[CajunRider]

Are you talking about "grudges" against Michael Gill?

Anybody remember Casual Conflict? Can't prove it, but we KNOW that horse was nerved. Mr. Gill has a lot of medical knowledge for a banker or whatever he is; he spent more money than God got on horse medical stuff; he's known to pay money to certain disreputable persons. Of this, I have personal knowledge. My great-uncle worked the back side all over this country, East coast, Florida, Louisiana, New York, everywhere but California. Uncle J knew Mr. Gill well even though Mr. Gill probably didn't know Uncle J... but you may rest assured my uncle knew Mr. Gill. Everything Uncle J knew, it was ALL bad.

Everyone loves TB horses or racing needs to keep eyes on certain people.

[AppJumpr08]

CajunRider - pretty sure the "grudge" reference was in regards to BigHoss's comment. Everyone in the racing industry knows what kind of person Gill is. ;)

[Glimmerglass]

Are you talking about "grudges" against Michael Gill?

No - rather assorted trolls who have surfaced and target other folks who post.

[Acertainsmile]

I know a few years ago your husband was sucking up pretty good trying to get a training job with him which he was never offered.

Obviously you have your facts wrong on this one... nice try though.

Try reading page 9 post 173 of this thread for a little enlightenment...

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=3345128#post3345128

And there are even posts I made in this thread last year.

[SEPowell]

CajunRider - pretty sure the "grudge" reference was in regards to BigHoss's comment. Everyone in the racing industry knows what kind of person Gill is. ;)

So does everyone in TB rescue

[AppJumpr08]

So does everyone in TB rescue

I consider those in TB rescue to be a very important part of the racing industry :yes::yes:

[Texarkana]

Ok... claiming from a kid is pretty dang low, even for me. But instead of running to the press, why don't they just claim her back now that she's outta jail and back down to her original price? I'm going to be a little irked if that doesn't happen.

But then, I've got $10 saying the mare will scratch...

[BeverlyAStrauss]

There is one Gill filly on the AC4H Broker pages- Sentimental Lisa (the lighter bay) the darker filly Flying Fortress came in with her but has a different owner listed.....

http://www.ac4h.com/BrokerOwned4.htm

[Acertainsmile]

Hey BigHoss...I think if your initials are TC, and you worked for MG, and now you work at SD, then you of all people would know that DP went to CT to take over the failing operation of TA because you recommended DP for the job...and then the plug got pulled (on you too) :)

By the way my husband (who does not suck up, he is just really a nice guy) says whats UP?

[DickHertz]

[QUOTE=Texarkana;3978110]Ok... claiming from a kid is pretty dang low, even for me. But instead of running to the press, why don't they just claim her back now[QUOTE]

Because Gill ruins most of the horses he claims. The numbers bear this out.

[bighoss]

Obviously you have your facts wrong on this one... nice try though.

Try reading page 9 post 173 of this thread for a little enlightenment...

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=3345128#post3345128

And there are even posts I made in this thread last year.

I am the facts

[Barnfairy]

That doesn't even make sense.

[Acertainsmile]

I am the facts

I know exactly who you are...that's what has me a little befuddled.

My husband was in that barn and was paid (in cash of course) until they shut down...also learned from previous trainer just HOW much you could steal without being caught. Extra people on the payroll, cases of Clem in the trunks of cars, you get the picture...

Or maybe you don't, because you weren't around personally to SEE it...and wasn't that part of YOUR job? Or am I mistaken about that too?

Anyway, everything is for the best, IMO my husband is way to honest for that operation. You know, you seemed like an alright guy, the nasty remark to me was uncalled for, but a troll is a troll I guess.

Have a nice day!

[Wilcham]

There is one Gill filly on the AC4H Broker pages- Sentimental Lisa (the lighter bay) the darker filly Flying Fortress came in with her but has a different owner listed.....

http://www.ac4h.com/BrokerOwned4.htm

I was Googling Sentimental Lisa to find more information on her, and stumbled upon this thread. As of yesterday, she is safe and sound in my barn as a foster for AC4H.

The vet was here today and she has quite the fever, and we heard the rasping in her throat. Thank you for the information on Gill and his myectomies. At least we might be able to cross the rasping sound off her current symptom list, knowing that.

[caffeinated]

Did someone put a troll beacon on this website? It seems like they are heading here like lemmings the past couple of days.

What's hilarious is that they're not very good at being anonymous. Good trolls are true mysteries :yes:

[MintHillFarm]

Well Casual Conflict had (http://espn.go.com/horse/news/2003/0207/1505358.html) - just after he was euthanized - his leg sawed off under Gill orders. You cannot for the love of jesus not tell me that wasn't to cover something up.

Claiming races and horses in those ranks are a big chunk of the sport. Plenty of good folks are successful at claiming and make money without squeezing blood from a stone.

I don't care for Gill and think he adds nothing to the sport in reputation or economics. As I recall reading in the last couple of months his mortgage firm in New Hampshire was under investigation. I wouldn't doubt he runs his business like he does his racing.


I don't know him, but from what I have just read on this thread, he sounds like a real low life. Hopefully, this time around he won't last long training horses. He deserves to be removed for unscrupulous practices...

[spooky01]

Apparently Gill, like the three trainers that were banned at the end of the 2008 meet, has been allowed back in to Suffolk Downs this year. In just the first three days of racing, three horses had to be euthanized and two belonged to Gill. The track has even replaced "The Pit" where horses are killed, with a building. One has to wonder if the investment is in anticipation of the need to euthanize more horses or if it's an attempt to address the problem they've had with coyotes eating the carcasses before they're removed from the grounds.

You've got to be fing kidding me??!!! Let's get our facts straight. We have very unfortunately lost 3 horses, you are correct there. But... The first horse was a beloved, old (at least 25 years) pony. The trainer found him dead of an apparant heart attack. The second horse that was lost was put down because of a bad infection in his leg. The third horse that was put down just shipped up from Fl and got sick, beyond help. None of these horses were Gills. As far as the pit goes, the EPA forced SD to replace it with a building. For whatever reason, the EPA has been a pita the last year. Get your facts straight before you start spewing crap.

[bighoss]

Apparently Gill, like the three trainers that were banned at the end of the 2008 meet, has been allowed back in to Suffolk Downs this year. In just the first three days of racing, three horses had to be euthanized and two belonged to Gill. The track has even replaced "The Pit" where horses are killed, with a building. One has to wonder if the investment is in anticipation of the need to euthanize more horses or if it's an attempt to address the problem they've had with coyotes eating the carcasses before they're removed from the grounds.

Gill was never asked to leave suffolk downs I noticed a lot of people on this forum talk a lot of smack please get the facts before you talk poop

[Jessi P]

Spook thank you for posting the facts of the situation. So sorry for those who lost their horses. As a reasonably intelligent adult I can hypothesize that Michael Gill did not cause an infection in the leg or a heart attack in a lead pony, nor do I believe he caused a horse to get sick when hauling up from Fla.

Trainer Harry Pease just lost his best best horse - a nice stakes quality horse - because it got sick when shipping north from Fla - he had to put it down as well. I dont think Michael Gill had anything to do with that one either. ;) Not that I have ever met the man - he could be the devil incarnate for all I know - just approaching the facts with a rational mind.

[Acertainsmile]

I guess we are neverminding the fact that Gill was ruled off for 3 yrs in N.E....

[bighoss]

You are misinformed. I guess you think he decided to leave on his own.

As for the EPA being a "pita;" Horse carcasses left on the ground for several days seems to me to be something reasonable for them to be concerned with. If you look at an aerial view of the track, you'll see why.

Believe me I am not misformed

[Acertainsmile]

Believe me I am not misformed

Nope, not misinformed, he is the "facts", and apparently the Good Will Ambassador for MG. ;)

[rcloisonne]

Apparently Gill, like the three trainers that were banned at the end of the 2008 meet, has been allowed back in to Suffolk Downs this year.
Why, oh WHY, has he been allowed back? Yes, I know he IS back. One of his horses won a claiming race on the May 6th, besting a little mare I've had my eye on for awhile (the only one in my virtual stable).

Quite frankly I'm appalled Suffolk is allowing this considering they're trying to better the image of TB racing in the eyes of the public (you know, people like me). :rolleyes: :sigh: :dead:

[caffeinated]

Believe me I am not misformed

phew! That's good to know. I'm really happy I'm not misformed either.

:D

[DickHertz]

Why, oh WHY, has he been allowed back? Yes, I know he IS back. One of his horses won a claiming race on the May 6th, besting a little mare I've had my eye on for awhile (the only one in my virtual stable).

Quite frankly I'm appalled Suffolk is allowing this considering they're trying to better the image of TB racing in the eyes of the public (you know, people like me). :rolleyes: :sigh: :dead:


The track has no slots, they'd probably welcome Usama Bin Laden if he had 100 horses to run there.

[AppJumpr08]

\
As for the EPA being a "pita;" Horse carcasses left on the ground for several days seems to me to be something reasonable for them to be concerned with. If you look at an aerial view of the track, you'll see why.

I'm quite sure that spooky doesn't need to look at an aerial view of the track to understand why horse carcasses left out would be a problem ;) And FYI, the building was built, and in use, last year.

The EPA has been a PITA about other issues, not the disposal of bodies.

You really need to crawl back under your bridge and stop taking shots at SD when you don't know what you're talking about. :rolleyes:

[AppJumpr08]

Well-well, look who's surfaced to stand up for Suffolk Downs! Why am I not surprised...

Incidentally, I didn't bring up the EPA; someone else did. I'm not surprised you and presumably Suffolk Downs regard the functioning of the EPA to be a "pita." The track is on filled, tidal ground, for one thing. Manure management alone is reason enough for the EPA to be concerned; or do you not know about that?

Funny you didn't address some of the more relevant points that I did in fact raise.

It's not a matter of "taking shots at" Suffolk Downs. The issue is about what a huge disappointment it is to see our home town racecourse coming up short in so many ways. Case in point: Mike Gill. That is where we started.

As the earlier poster said, they'd probably let Osama Bin Laden in if he had a hundred horses to run...

Nice hearing from you.

Erm, I never said I viewed the functioning of the EPA as a PITA. I simply stated that the reasons the EPA is being viewed as a PITA by some is NOT due to the body disposal issue.

And the other point you brought up about the dead horses was already addressed by spooky - NONE of them were due to catastrophic injury, and NONE of them were, I believe, Gill horses. So your earlier post with INCORRECT information was a bit sensationalist, don't you think?
I have no idea about the horse who supposedly flipped over in the paddock - I wasn't there that day, didn't see it, and haven't heard anything about it. If, in fact, it did happen, obviously that is a horrible situation that shouldn't have been allowed to happen.

I, too, am very much less then impressed that Gill has been allowed back - and I'm not, in ANY way, defending Suffolk on that count. I think the guy is as big a dirtbag as you do, I promise!

HOWEVER. Gill is allowed at A LOT of other tracks, and Suffolk is the only one you bring up - in not one, but TWO threads. Complete with incorrect information about horses in his barn being euthed. It gets old after awhile. Hence my comment about "taking shots" at Suffolk. You have no problem jumping all over Suffolk for what they AREN'T doing. But are you doing anything to HELP the situation at Suffolk? Or bringing up things that they may be doing right? Not that I've noticed. Obviously the situation at Suffolk isn't a perfect one - everyone knows that. But posting false information to try and get a rise out of everyone doesn't help anyone - especially the horses.

[Barnfairy]

Obviously the situation at Suffolk isn't a perfect one - everyone knows that. But posting false information to try and get a rise out of everyone doesn't help anyone - especially the horses.It goes deeper than that. The trash talk hurts the horses. I am aware of circumstances in which some trainers have become exceedingly wary of dealing with any of the retirement groups --one trainer refusing altogether-- as a direct result of distorted comments painting trainers in a bad light published by one New England rescue center in particular.

If we are ever to provide viable alternatives to slaughter, we need trainers to view retirement resources as a friend, not as the enemy, so knock it off with the Suffolk bashing already!

[Cartier]

An outsiders perspective here… I haven’t clue about racing, don’t know more than what I’ve gleaned from reading Walter Farley as a kid and having watched the Triple Crown races for the past 30 plus years or so. Hubby knows even less. Like millions of Americans, we are drawn to racing each year at this time, and then, after the Belmont, the interest fades until the BC races, then we wait again for that first Saturday in May. Frankly, there is never enough accurate information in the mainstream media for people like us to make much sense of what the heck goes on in racing. So, we come to this forum about this time every year to try to understand a bit of background on the Triple Crown races.

Not sure if you all realize how fantastic this forum really is. I wish we had people like Glimmerglass observing the country’s economy… our county would probably be in much better shape. So for you regular posters (some of whom seem to be drawing a bit of fire lately) please know, there are people like my husband and I who greatly appreciate your contributions here. Thank you for taking your valuable time to keep us neophytes informed about what is going on in racing. Your posts help us all understand racing a bit better. Warts and all, you are making a positive difference in shaping the general public’s view of racing. At the very least your posts here help us to understand how to support those working to improve conditions for the horses.

Seems pretty clear to us that Michael Gill is NOT good for racing... but you all are. Keep up the good work.

[AppJumpr08]

First, I have not posted "incorrect information."

I wasn't aware Gill had his own barn at Suffolk Downs. I'm puzzled, however, why it is you say "it gets old after a while" about my comments and still post your own complaints about him whenever the spirit moves you.

Sweetie, stating that 2 out of the 3 horses that have died at Suffolk were Gill horses IS INCORRECT INFORMATION. They WERE NOT Gill horses.

And you know darn well I'm not talking about your statements and opinion about Gill, which I just said I AGREED with you on.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[AppJumpr08]

Since you clearly missed it on the previous page ;)


You've got to be fing kidding me??!!! Let's get our facts straight. We have very unfortunately lost 3 horses, you are correct there. But... The first horse was a beloved, old (at least 25 years) pony. The trainer found him dead of an apparant heart attack. The second horse that was lost was put down because of a bad infection in his leg. The third horse that was put down just shipped up from Fl and got sick, beyond help. None of these horses were Gills. As far as the pit goes, the EPA forced SD to replace it with a building. For whatever reason, the EPA has been a pita the last year. Get your facts straight before you start spewing crap.

And in case you forgot your statement (which I see you've edited to remove the information about the horse flipping over in the paddock)

Apparently Gill, like the three trainers that were banned at the end of the 2008 meet, has been allowed back in to Suffolk Downs this year. In just the first three days of racing, three horses had to be euthanized and two belonged to Gill. The track has even replaced "The Pit" where horses are killed, with a building. One has to wonder if the investment is in anticipation of the need to euthanize more horses or if it's an attempt to address the problem they've had with coyotes eating the carcasses before they're removed from the grounds.

[Barnfairy]

You ask am I "doing anything to HELP the situation at Suffolk." My answer is no. What can I do?For starters, you can help by supporting the track to continue to make efforts towards improving conditions regarding the welfare of the horses, rather than close your mind and bash. You can help by supporting CANTER NE and the TRF instead of coming here and undermining them.

You can help by getting your facts straight. You can help by voiceing your "genuine concern" with a little more tact and foresight. Maybe then you'll regain a little credibility, because right now you have none.

Trainers and owners do share a responsibility in improving equine welfare. Sometimes they need a little push from the outside. Remember, however: you attract far more flies with honey than with vinegar.

If you feel so strongly that on-site retirement is the only way to go, why don't you go talk to Barbara L. about what it takes to keep Philly's up and running, get your ducks in a row, and talk to Suffolk?

I certainly don't find it hard to believe, however, that Suffolk Downs' trainers "have become exceedingly wary of dealing with any of the retirement groups." The three trainers in the news are evidence of that. That's thanks to people like you and the maligned statements you make. Nice work.

[Barnfairy]

That's pretty lame of you to say that trainers at Suffolk Downs aren't working with rescue groups because of me...
You have no one but yourself to blame, dear.

[AppJumpr08]

I have neither edited nor removed anything from my posts. You are a Suffolk Downs groupie and I wouldn't expect anything less than for you to attempt to draw this thread off-topic and away from the discussion about Mike Gill and his influence on racing. The ancillary points I cited relate directly to the problems at Suffolk Downs overall, including Mike Gill.

My apologies, the reference to the horse flipping over was on the thread about Suffolk. Since you posted on two of them with much the same information, I combined it in my brain. My bad.

I am not a groupie - I am someone who is Very active in working towards the common goal of making Suffolk Downs a better place for the horses who run there. I have spoken with several of the key players (including Mr. Fields) about efforts being made, and continue to keep in contact with them. I take horses that need to be rehomed, and I have worked closely with both CANTER and the TRF, and will continue to do so. Instead of sitting on the sidelines and whining, I'm choosing to do whatever I can to make a difference. Are all of Suffolk's ducks in a row yet? No. Are they getting closer all the time? Yes. Is it perfect yet? No. Do I think that the efforts being made will bring us closer to a better situation, and even perhaps (gasp) perfection in the years to come? Yes.

You keep referring to tracks who have on-site retirement barns, and I think that those programs are AWESOME. And perhaps Suffolk will have one someday. But you have to remember, those tracks have CASINOS and SLOTS and therefore, MUCH more money coming in. In an ideal world Suffolk would have bottomless pockets (or slots). In the real world that isn't the case.
If you took the time to walk around the backside, I think you would see that there are already improvements evident - there is one trainer in particular who has a lovely looking shedrow this year (and had one last year as well) - the first year I set foot in the backside, his horses looked awful. Now they are all in good flesh, and continue to be in good condition through the end of the meet. Largely in part to both Lorita's efforts, and the efforts of Sam Elliot.


People who can do nothing but sit on their thumbs and whine about how awful situations are make me batty. How 'bout DOING something about the things you see that need changing???

[AppJumpr08]

Yes, Barnfairy, drink the Kool-Aid... it's good! Really!!
:lol::lol:

[AppJumpr08]

Do you realize what you're saying here? You find it remarkable that there's a trainer that keeps his stable up and has horses in good flesh. Do you realize what you're saying???


Are you reading for comprehension?!!? My point was that the new management is making efforts on all levels to improve the situation. NO I don't think it's remarkable that he's keeping his horses in good condition -I think it's how things are supposed to be. But the fact that he now cares for his horses better then before BECAUSE he was told he HAD to by upper management is an EXAMPLE of IMPROVEMENTS that HAVE been made.

Do you realize how foolish you look twisting my words?

[spooky01]

Don't forget me, I'm a "groupie" too!

[Barnfairy]

Would you like to try the Kool Aid? (asks Barnfairy, pitcher in hand, with a Stepford smile and a glazed over look in her eyes)

[spooky01]

Oh shooot!!! I saw her this morning but was too busy to ask;)

[Louise]

I speak as a volunteer for FLTAP, but not as any kind of official representative for the organization. I work with a group of people, on the backside of Finger Lakes every weekend. We all have the utmost admiration for AppJumpr08, Canter, Lorita and all of the people who work so hard to insure the well being of the horses at Suffolk Downs. The Finger Lakes Trainer's Listing is modeled directly after the listings that the Canter NE group uses, and that group was always willing to give us help and guidance in setting up our own backside operation. I know that I, personally, am very glad to see the direction that Suffolk has taken lately.

Is Suffolk perfect? Of course not. Will it ever be? Probably not. Find me one organization, anywhere, that is. To expect anyone, or any organization, to walk into a situation and immediately be able to turn it completely around is unrealistic. In fact, to try and move too quickly would probably cause more harm than good. Improvements in any situation come slowly and painfully, with many setbacks. It is the general direction that Suffolk and other tracks like it are moving in that is encouraging.

I'm on the outside of the Suffolk situation, looking in. I don't know everything that is happening, so I would not presume make any kind of adverse judgement. It's all too easy to denigrate a place like Suffolk. But, without being there, without seeing how things are now to how they were a few years ago, it is impossible to pass said judgement on the way things are now.

There are Michael Gills at every track. Even at the big tracks, the fancy tracks with the fancy horses. But to focus on them, to the exclusion of all the trainers who are trying, and learning, to do a good job, is narrow and unrealistic.

[AppJumpr08]

Louise, thank you so much. Very well said.
Having seen some of the FL Lovelies you deal with in person, I am also a huge fan what you are doing with FLTAP. I think it's so important for All of the rescue and retirement groups to work together - so much more is accomplished that way.

[AppJumpr08]

Oh shooot!!! I saw her this morning but was too busy to ask;)

I KNEW there was something I forgot to give you!! :lol: I had a bottle in the truck!! :winkgrin:

[2boys]

I certainly don't find it hard to believe, however, that Suffolk Downs' trainers "have become exceedingly wary of dealing with any of the retirement groups."

If I am understanding this quote correctly, I would like to add my *super valuable* 2 cents. As an adopter of a former MG horse, I must say that I found his background information ON MY OWN with zero bad-mouthing from any rescue. If trainers aren't doing anything wrong, what would they need to be wary of?

[Barnfairy]

If trainers aren't doing anything wrong, what would they need to be wary of?Valid question. There have been situations in which trainers have been falsely accused in writing by a retirement facility of running horses on "broken legs" and "fresh bows" -- what is the motivation to work with a retirement facility that is looking to drag your name through the mud?



Thank you Louise for a beautifully written segue back to the original topic. :)

[2boys]

Valid question. There have been situations in which trainers have been falsely accused in writing by a retirement facility of running horses on "broken legs" and "fresh bows" -- what is the motivation to work with a retirement facility that is looking to drag your name through the mud?
:)

Fair enough. Nice pun, right?:cool:

[AppJumpr08]

[QUOTE=Barnfairy;4098413] The stallion's owner-of-record at the time of his retirement was delighted to participate in his retirement under the circumstances and I believe he inquires about him regularly. The trainer was furious that the owner wouldn't let [B]her[B] enter the stallion in one more race after his retirement had been arranged. It's no secret who the stallion is and who his last trainer was.

Since she is highly involved with the retirement of many horses at SD, I would say not the same person.

[Barnfairy]

Here comes Kool Aid. Oh Yeaahhhhh (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8n69H0JwsGI&feature=related).

[AppJumpr08]

[QUOTE=AppJumpr08;4099412]

So is there another horse with injuries? I thought she was making reference to Watchtower's website...
Tell us more if it's true...

[edit]


Obviously it's a horrible thing when a horse is run on terrible injuries, and it should never happen. But there are certain cases where the injuries haven't been nearly as bad as they have been made out to be, and even if they were, it is not a retirement farm's place to publicly flog a trainer. EVER! As mentioned already, in the end, it only hurts the horses.

[AppJumpr08]

Nope that is the story I got about Hansello also - Sam has helped many, many horses by doing much the same thing. Suffolk is lucky to have him.

[Barnfairy]

You just don't get it.

There was actually a time I recommended David's place to others as a retirement resource, but no more.

I was not referring to Watchtower earlier, however the sensationalist accusations directed towards Lorita in his write up are exactly the kind of continued smack talk which causes other hard-working genuine horsemen to want to have nothing to do with rescues. This is also a significant reason as to why CANTER and the TRF pulled all ties with that farm.

I never said a horse was running on broken legs; those words come right from the farm's website.

You have made it clear by your posts here that you are only interested in the warping the truth, twisting people's words, and attempting to soil innocent people's good reputations.

I have spoken my piece and am done with you.

Apologies to my fellow forum readers for the rant. Something had to be said.

[DickHertz]

I forget, how is Michael Gill related to all of this?

[AppJumpr08]

Edited as the information about Watchtower's purchase that is common knowledge to many drew this response from David Sears this afternoon:

"Posting information, including the price that was paid for a Watchtower, on a public forum is a detriment to my private interests. The
transaction was private and an explanation for it is absolutely not appropriate."

I was also welcomed to leave the information that I knew to be true in my post, however, I'll just delete the whole thing and be done with it since I don't typically try to defame anyone with incorrect information.

[Barnfairy]

I forget, how is Michael Gill related to all of this?I don't know, I've lost track...but now AppJumpr and I look like a couple of loonies talking to ourselves with all the Grand Prix smack talk posts missing! :lol:

[AppJumpr08]

I don't know, I've lost track...but now AppJumpr and I look like a couple of loonies talking to ourselves with all the Grand Prix smack talk posts missing! :lol:

It's the kool aid that made us do it!! :lol::lol: I talk to myself all the time :D

[Mr.Pockets]

She won the 2nd start off the claim for gill