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Simkie
Dec. 3, 2008, 01:06 AM
In my continuing quest to fix my horse, I contacted an "alternative" vet who suggested Blush might have Aluminum toxicity and thought it would be a good idea to run a hair mineral analysis through Uckele.

It's only money, and god knows I've spent a small fortune on Blush over the last six months, so I suspended some disbelief, got the hair and sent it in. I got the results today.

Most notable, there was a high level of aluminum. Blush is at 13.7 mg/100g. The upper range of normal is 1.5 mg/100g. Here is what the literature Uckele sent with results says about high Al:


Aluminum is an abundant metal in the Earth’s crust. It may be found in contaminated drinking water, aluminum containers, and food & feed products (anti-caking agents and anti-acids). Aluminum may directly affect the brain and nervous system. It inhibits enzymes important for neurological function. It may cause memory loss, anxiety, confusion and disorientation. Other common symptoms associated with aluminum toxicity include; Ataxia, colic, gastroenteritis and ulcers, calcium displacement, and other inflammatory disorders. Aluminum directly antagonizes Calcium, Magnesium, Phosphorus, Manganese and Copper. The use malic acid has been a reliable chelator of aluminum.Blush was also high on lithium, iron, manganese and strontium.


Lithium decreases manic symptoms (depression), may be an intermediary in the conversion of essential fatty acids, stabilizes hormone secretion and has anti-aggressive actions. Lithium supplementation has been shown to increase sodium levels in the cells. Its appearance resembles calcium and magnesium and in this may act as a stabilizing agent on the nerves.
Deficiency symptoms include: aggression and depression.
Excess symptoms include: tremors, confusion, excessive urination, thyroid disturbance, weight gain, increased thirst, and other metabolic disorders. Too much lithium may interfere with iodine uptake by the thyroid. This action could block the production of thyroid hormones.
Hair levels of Lithium: Lithium appears to lower sodium. High or low levels may indicate metabolic stress.
Iron is critical in oxygen transport and energy production. It is also important for many enzymes systems. The majority of the body’s iron is stored in red blood cells.
Iron deficiency symptoms include: Anemia, fatigue and weakness. Low blood pressure and dizziness.
Iron excess symptoms include: Inflammatory illness, mental distress, anemia and sugar instability.
High Iron: A high level of iron in the hair may be a general indication of inflammation. It may be associated with high aluminum levels. Since iron is stored more in red blood cells than any other cell, a high hair level can be due to iron loss, which is in part as a result of destruction and breakdown of body tissues (inflammation).
Manganese is a trace mineral essential for energy production, glucose tolerance, production of proteoglycans (tendons, ligaments and cartilage) and bone development. Manganese is important in synthesis of neurotransmitters, specific enzymes and required for normal adrenal and thyroid function.
Manganese deficiency symptoms include: Bone weakness, glucose sensitivity, muscle and connective tissue weakness, ringing of ears.
Manganese excess symptoms include: Mental disturbance and neurological symptoms, ataxia and iron deficiency.
High Manganese: High hair manganese may be due to manganese toxicity. It may also be high due to a loss through the hair (e.g. Aluminum sensitivity).
Strontium has been shown to have a correlation with strong bones and teeth. It appears to have an effect on calcium metabolism.
Hair levels of Strontium: Ideally strontium levels are found below the high range on a hair analysis. High levels may indicate a toxicity (inflammatory trend).Blush also was low on sodium and copper:


Sodium is a critical mineral involved in fluid balance, regulation of blood pressure and cell membrane permeability. Sodium’s roles include: Circulation, maintaining acid – base balance, production of hydrochloric acid, endocrine function and detoxification.
Sodium deficiency symptoms include: Slow oxidation rate, fatigue and apathy, poor protein digestion (lack of hydrochloric acid), and allergies.
Low Sodium: A Low hair sodium level may be a good indicator for depressed adrenal activity. When correlated with other specific minerals, low sodium may indicate anxiety, fatigue, and adrenal exhaustion.
Copper is essential for energy production and blood formation. Its most functional roles include: Structure and function of connective and skeletal tissues, nervous system, reproduction, endocrine systems, pigmentation of skin, hair and nails, immune system function, and formation of hemoglobin.
Copper deficiency symptoms include: Anemia, fatigue, inflammation, diarrhea, loss of hair and hair color, osteoporosis, impaired collagen formation, and low endocrine function.At the very least, this is really interesting. I received the results late today, so I haven't had a chance to get in touch with the vet. I'll try to get a hold of her tomorrow.

Has anyone else run one of these things? What sort of results did you have? How did you treat your horse once you had the results?

decorum
Dec. 3, 2008, 02:30 AM
I just had my horse's hair analysed too. Mine also came back with aluminum toxicity but my chart says that normal is 23 to 75 mg%, whatever that means. My horse was at 83.51.

His electrolytes were almost nil, magnesium was low, calcium low and cobalt low. His phos level was normal so his Cal/Phos ratio is way out of wack.

He is now on a custom made sup made by the vet that read the analysis and after just 5 days he was a new horse. He has now put on weight and looks great and has his energy back, I haven't ridden him yet but he plays like crazy in the field.

I should get my hay analysis back tomorrow so that will help too.

His symptoms were weight loss, despite eating massive quantities of food, lethargy, diarrhea, and stinky poop.

What was going on with your horse?

I'm EBO
Dec. 3, 2008, 03:00 AM
Linus Pauling thought that all (human) health disorders had their roots in mineral deficiencies and imbalances.

Dr. Eleanor Kellon (DVM) was on a campaign to combat iron-overload in horses a few years ago, and may still be. She also did diet recommendations based upon hay analysis, and I believe she still does that. She stressed mineral balancing as key to prevention/recovery from founder/laminitis if the cause is dietary. One of the facts I remember her mentioning was that hays grown in the western US are very high in iron, but low in copper. Another was that most commerical horse feeds are also very high in iron. There are other deficiencies and imbalances depending upon particular soils, of course. She was also in favor or hair analysis as a diagnostic tool.

For a long time, I mixed mineral supplements for my horses to make up for the deficiencies in their hay. If I could have afforded it, I would have had Ukele do it for me, because it is relatively complicated and time consuming to mix your own, but not rocket science, either. As my herd increased, my enthusiasm for mixing decreased. Now, I do okay with a good hoof supplement (Foundation) which takes care of some of the mineral deficiencies, and mixing the varieties of hay that I feed.

I wonder what the results would be if you submitted hair from several horses in the same herd. Would the results be more or less the same, or would they vary widely according to the particular needs of the individual horses?

Hampton Bay
Dec. 3, 2008, 09:26 AM
That is really interesting. It makes me want to have it done on my mare, who has been a bit off lately.

EBO, what varieties of hay do you feed? I have been feeding coastal bermuda as the main staple, but they get a bit of timothy, and some alfalfa (my mare gets a decent amount, she has been picky with the other hay). I have been considering adding a bit of peanut hay as well. My colt and filly are doing wonderfully, but my mare has been having some horribly stinky poop for about a month, and she has been a bit lethargic and not interested in hay.

Daydream Believer
Dec. 3, 2008, 09:31 AM
Some interesting articles on soy and a connection to aluminum toxicity. Lots of soy in most horse feeds.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/97/3/413

http://www.soyconnection.com/newsletters/soy-connection/health-nutrition/article.php/Focus+On+Aluminum?id=99

https://www.amazines.com/article_detail.cfm/177490?articleid=177490

http://www.aquarianonline.com/Wellness/soy2.html

Katy Watts
Dec. 3, 2008, 10:51 AM
Assessment of Commercial Laboratories Performing Hair Mineral Analysis

Sharon Seidel, PhD; Richard Kreutzer, MD; Daniel Smith, DrPH; Sandra McNeel, DVM; Debra Gilliss, MD

JAMA. 2001;285:67-72.

Context Hair mineral analysis is being used by health care practitioners and promoted by laboratories as a clinical assessment tool and to identify toxic exposures, despite a 1985 study that found poor reliability for this test.

Objective To assess whether the reliability of data from commercial laboratories advertising multimineral hair analyses for nutritional or toxicity assessment has improved since the 1985 study.

Design, Setting, and Participants A split hair sample taken from near the scalp of a single healthy volunteer was submitted for analysis to 6 commercial US laboratories, which analyze 90% of samples submitted for mineral analysis in the United States.

Main Outcome Measures Agreement of test results for each analyte, laboratory reference ranges, laboratory characteristics, and interpretation of health implications.

Results Laboratory differences in highest and lowest reported mineral concentrations for the split sample exceeded 10-fold for 12 minerals, and statistically significant (P<.05) extreme values were reported for 14 of the 31 minerals that were analyzed by 3 or more laboratories. Variations also were found in laboratory sample preparation methods and calibration standards. Laboratory designations of normal reference ranges varied greatly, resulting in conflicting classifications (high, normal, or low) of nearly all analyzed minerals. Laboratories also provided conflicting dietary and nutritional supplement recommendations based on their results.

Conclusions Hair mineral analysis from these laboratories was unreliable, and we recommend that health care practitioners refrain from using such analyses to assess individual nutritional status or suspected environmental exposures. Problems with the regulation and certification of these laboratories also should be addressed.

Assessment of hair mineral analysis commercially offered in Germany
Journal of Trace Elements in Medicine and Biology
Volume 16, Issue 1, 2002, Pages 27-31

To evaluate intra- and inter-laboratory agreement concerning hair mineral analysis and interpretation of results, hair samples from 2 volunteers were sent to seven laboratories, which commercially offer hair mineral analysis in Germany. 6 weeks later, another identical part from the hair sample of volunteer 1 was sent to all seven labs. Altogether, 50 elements were analyzed, 23 by all seven labs. For comparability, only the results for these 23 elements were assessed. The intra-laboratory reproducibility was evaluated by the 2 identical hair samples from volunteer 1. On the average, the reproducibility seems to be sufficient (median ± 9.48% to ± 20.59%), but for individual elements there were unacceptable out-rulers up to 100%. Only one lab classified all elements of the first and the second analysis of the identical hair sample in the same category (below, within, or above normal range). The others grouped 4 to 7 elements different. This is not tolerable. The inter-laboratory comparability was assessed by the results of the hair samples of both volunteers. For the sample of volunteer 1 at least the results of 6 (out of 23) elements were within an acceptable range of ± 30% from the consensus value (= mean of all seven labs). For volunteer 2 this was only the case for 2 (!) elements. Differences of more than 100% were found for most other elements. Moreover, in the vast majority of the tested elements there was no comparability of the classification to the respective reference ranges of the different laboratories. For example, for volunteer 1 only 3 elements (our of 23!) were identically classified by all seven labs. As neither the analytical results nor the classification to the individual reference ranges by the laboratories correspond in tolerable borders, conclusions, drawn from these results, cannot be valid. Hair mineral analysis from these laboratories is unreliable. Therefore we must recommend to refrain from using such analysis to assess individual nutritional status or suspected environmental exposure.

deltawave
Dec. 3, 2008, 11:10 AM
Thank you, Katy. Biting really really hard on my tongue. Ow. :p

Simkie
Dec. 3, 2008, 11:25 AM
Listen guys, I KNOW that hair mineral analysis is certainly not a proven method for analyzing deficiencies and excesses. I'm not an idiot.

I have done EVERYTHING possible for this horse and she's still not quite right. As I said in my FIRST post, I am willing to suspend some disbelief here and quiet my eyerolling enough to speak with the voodoo vet about my horse and what to do next. I do think it's interested that she thought Blush had Al toxicity and the results came back with Al right off the chart.

With a horse like Blush, this is just another tool in the box. If it gets me somewhere, great. If it doesn't, oh well.

decorum, Blush has had some neurological issues stemming from bony change at C6/C7.

TheOrangeOne
Dec. 3, 2008, 11:38 AM
That vet suggested Lead for my horse- I thought it was funny because I believe children with lead poisoning are known to "act out" and be "violent", which certaintly describes my horse on some days. As for the lithium, non horse people have suggested that he needs more of it...:lol: I might give it a try if the diet change doesn't work. Is there a more reliable method of finding these things out?

I'm EBO
Dec. 3, 2008, 12:38 PM
Hampton Bay--This link: http://www.dairyone.com/Forage/FeedComp/MainLibrary.asp will take you to the forage library of Dairy One, the hay analysis lab that I use.

They have compiled 8(?) years worth of analyses on all sorts of feed and list the averages of nutrients and minerals for each. I find this very useful without having to analyse every bite that goes into the horses' mouths.

You can use the data to get a broad idea of what is being fed to your horse--of course, an exact analysis of your hay would be better if you have time and money to do it.

In addition to hay and forage, they also list some hard feeds and unusual feeds (such as almond hulls).

You also can get internet access to the latest Nutrition Requirements of Horses from National Academy Press. http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=11653

decorum
Dec. 3, 2008, 12:51 PM
With my horse this is a last ditch effort, I have tried everything else and went against the advice of my vet to have this done. Well, he wasn't helping fixing him. Over nearly the last 2 years I have more than $4000 into this and this is the first thing that has really helped, the new supplement has made a world of difference.

Maybe it's a crock but it does seem to be working. My horse is a perfect weight and he plays like crazy now.

foxford
Dec. 3, 2008, 01:38 PM
Simkie,
Thanks for posting. I only skimmed the whole thread, but will be back later to read indepth! It is very interesting (both sides). I had an alternative vet suggest this as well, but I had not done it yet. I will - if for no other reason, curiosity. No harm done in seeing what it says, right?

If you remember, I have been through so much with my guy. Tried the Gabapentin and it was not a good match for him. When ever I took him to New Bolton the adrenilin would make him look sound. I had a local vet out and he had looked at all of Lucky's xrays, bone scan, etc. from NBC. He felt that the kissing spines were his main problem. He compensated for his back and was showing lameness in his hind end, etc due to that. His words, "retire him! It's degenerative and not going to get better. Injections are a temp. band aid." Ugh! He's only 8 yrs. old. I have not ridden him for a year now.

I have been really curious about the hair analysis. Thanks for doing my homework ;)

Sorry to hear that Blush is not fully better. It was looking so good there for awhile. Good luck with this. Please keep us/me posted.

LMH
Dec. 3, 2008, 02:18 PM
I have come to the decision (kicking and screaming the entire way) that some horses are not right, broken, unfixable for what we want to do with them.

Some horses are meant to look FABULOUS while grazing in a pasture.

Hardest thing I have ever had to admit.

Simkie
Dec. 3, 2008, 02:36 PM
I have come to the decision (kicking and screaming the entire way) that some horses are not right, broken, unfixable for what we want to do with them.

Some horses are meant to look FABULOUS while grazing in a pasture.

Hardest thing I have ever had to admit.

I think everyone here would say Blush looks absolutely awesome if they were to come out and see her. One of my vets saw her the other day and said she looked excellent. She's working daily, building symmetrical muscle and usually quite easy and happy to ride and work around. There is just one final piece that needs to be solved: her touchyness while grooming and her dislike of being touched, which most people would say is just her being a TB, or her just being a mare or just "xyz."

Regardless, I would never, ever allow a horse to live in unmanageable pain, in a field or in a stall. If I was not able to manage Blush, I would put her down. I think it's beyond cruel to have a horse that's in pain and NOT treat the horse.

LMH, did you ever try your horse on gabapentin, or did you just give up?

Hampton Bay
Dec. 3, 2008, 07:24 PM
...

LMH, did you ever try your horse on gabapentin, or did you just give up?

Gabapentin is really not a cure-all for pain issues. If you know much about how the drug actually works, you would know that it essentially shuts down the pain receptors in the brain. Which is an OK idea, until you think about what happens if the horse (or person, for that matter) goes off of the drug. I have been thru that, and it is absolute hell. I literally was in bed for a month with blankets over the windows. Even laying down on memory foam hurt. That was about 1.5 years ago, and my pain tolerance is still not normal.

If you've tried everything else, then sure. But its really not a drug to mess around with. It can have some pretty bad side effects as well, including anorexia (my issue with it).

Simkie
Dec. 4, 2008, 01:18 AM
If you've tried everything else, then sure. But its really not a drug to mess around with. It can have some pretty bad side effects as well, including anorexia (my issue with it).

Considering LMH says that she has tried everything, and her horse sounds like he's in CONSIDERABLE neuropathic pain from pinched/impinged nerve roots, I'd think it's sure worth a try. I know I would not allow a horse in that much pain to continue without even trying to treat. I was not the only one who recommended the drug, and I was curious if she'd tried it.

I did get in touch with the vet today, and she suggested some chinese herbs and some homeopathic stuff. It will be interesting to see what happens. At the very least, this is kind of a neat science experiment. :)

citydog
Dec. 4, 2008, 01:37 AM
L
I wonder what the results would be if you submitted hair from several horses in the same herd.

I'm wondering what the results would be if you submitted hair from the same horse, to the same lab...

Glad the OP's horse is doing better, :yes: just not sure how much the hair mineral analysis had to do with it.

Simkie
Dec. 4, 2008, 01:53 AM
Glad the OP's horse is doing better, :yes: just not sure how much the hair mineral analysis had to do with it.

We have not even begun to do anything with the hair mineral analysis results. My horse isn't better because of the analysis.

She IS very much improved following injecting the facet joints at C6/C7 and daily gabapentin.

I'm just hoping that this vet who has come highly recommended, and advised that we do a hair mineral analysis, can help Blush with her issues being groomed and being touched. She gets very upset if you touch her belly. I believe MY vet phrased it as "exquisitely protective of midline" or some such.

Most people would just say Blush doesn't like her belly touched, and call her girthy. I'm not satisfied with that answer, and am continuing to try to figure out WHY she has become so sensitive.

silver2
Dec. 4, 2008, 02:27 AM
For a long time, I mixed mineral supplements for my horses to make up for the deficiencies in their hay.
Our hay guy used to do that- they would test the hay and have either a complete feed (designed to be the entire concentrate part of the diet) or a vitamin supplement (a handful of pellets for the fatties) made to match each of the hays they sold to provide complete nutrition. It was a pretty awesome set up.

I'm EBO
Dec. 4, 2008, 03:28 AM
Simkie, my Cushings mare used to be so girthy that you were risking life and limb to saddle her. This was before we knew she had cushings, and didn't stop until she was diagnosed. Serpenditiously, the chaste tree berries that I started her on for her Cushings, eased the girthiness completely. The overseeing vet thought that was probably that her tumor somehow had a prolactin component. She was always very touchy on the near side before the ct berries. She's retired now--not from the cushings, but from arthritic changes--and I haven't checked to see whether she's kept the "cure". She's on pergolide now. If all else fails, you might want to try that at a dosage level suitable for a cushings horse.

Silver2, your hay guy was a prince! Why'd he stop?

foxford
Dec. 4, 2008, 02:40 PM
Just as an fyi, Lucky shows no pain - unless you ask him to work on a lunge line or long line. Ask him to do anything that he has to hold his body differently and you will see a lameness. On his own, in the pasture, he can run and buck with the best of them. He is a very happy horse.

I would still like to fix him. The hair analysis could give another insight. I am open to almost anything at this point. (for those of you that don't know Lucky's story, we have done almost every test imaginable! I have spent thousands of $$)

LMH, I've had a hard time with the decision too. I feel for you.

Simkie
Dec. 4, 2008, 03:08 PM
That's really interesting, EBO! If we don't resolve the issue with whatever we do next, I'll try the chaste tree.

I just got off the phone with the Uckele nutritionist (a consult with included with the HMA) and it was pretty interesting. He said that she was quite high on aluminum and was also sensitive to aluminum. The high iron, managanese and lithium are all indicators of aluminum sensitivity.

He also said that she had a "mixed metabolism," meaning that she has a heightened secondary stress response and a slow recovery time when she does have a stressful event. He said Blush's blood sugar falls too often and quickly, and that the hormonal response to this (releasing cortisol, insulin and adrenalin) is making her hyper sensitive to everything.

He said the high iron indicated inflammation, and that the body uses copper to recover from inflammation. Blush showed low on copper, which indicates, again, that she has difficulties recovering from stress.

When I received the results a few days ago, Uckele included a whole list of stuff they'd recommend, most of which could be mixed into one custom supplement for Blush. Since Blush is so picky, he suggested just starting with the Seroquine and the tubes of B complex, which should help stabilize her blood sugar and get her less hypersensitive to everything, and then adding in malic acid after a month or so of treatment with the other supplements.

I also got in touch with the voodoo vet yesterday, and she recommended an herbal product called liver happy to cleanse the liver, followed by a homeopathic treatment.

I am going to ask my local alternative vet person for guidance as well.

I'm not sure if I actually BELIEVE in most of this, but it's been interesting. And if this crazy stuff leads to my horse getting better, it will all be worth it.

I'm EBO
Dec. 4, 2008, 08:49 PM
Simkie, what I've found with homeopathics is that, somehow, they work very well for horses. I'm a skeptic, and think (while I'm preparing the magic potion), "What BS. This can't possibly work." Then, a few days later, they're all better. And I still don't see how some crazy little mixture can work, but. . . .

Evidently, belief on the part of the owner is not essential to the cure.

deltawave
Dec. 4, 2008, 08:58 PM
Simkie, I know you're taking this with a big grain of salt, but how on EARTH can this Uckele person draw these conclusions about your horse's metabolism simply from a hair analysis? It sounds like he/she is hitting all the "red flags" with information that is widely talked about but seriously lacking in scientific support. (ie, "high iron indicates inflammation": what, precisely, does that mean and what precisely is the proposed mechanism?)


Blush showed low on copper, which indicates, again, that she has difficulties recovering from stress.

How, exactly, did this person draw this conclusion?

I totally understand the place you're coming from, but I also do understand that it's a place from where any potential ray of hope can seem heaven-sent. Please retain your skepticism. It's only "interesting" if the proposed diagnosis/treatment hits some hot buttons, and people with ailments (or horses with ailments) that are simply beyond description tend to view EVERYTHING as a potential "hot button".

Simkie
Dec. 5, 2008, 12:13 AM
I hear you deltawave, I really do. And I'm retaining my skepticism. I'm also using my excellent alternative vet as a sounding board with all this stuff, and I'll follow her advice over the others. I *know* my person is absolutely rational and she knows my horse and I think is in a better place to say yay or nay than someone I've just spoken with on the phone.

This is what Uckele says about high iron:


High Iron: A high level of iron in the hair may be a general indication of inflammation. It may be associated with high aluminum levels. Since iron is stored more in red blood cells than any other cell, a high hair level can be due to iron loss, which is in part as a result of destruction and breakdown of body tissues (inflammation). So it seems they say inflammation = destruction of red cells & other cells = high iron in the hair.

I also understand that one of the very attractive parts of this whole thing is hearing things like the above and thinking "well, sure, that makes sense" when, in reality, it might not make any sense at all when you really get into the biochemistry of things. I do understand that.

As for hot buttons, there are plenty of hot buttons that WEREN'T hit. IR/Cushings, for example. The two take aways from my conversation with Uckele were the "mixed metabolism" issue and the inflammation issue. One of the first things the nutritionist asked me was "is your horse ... angry?" Hell yes. She IS angry. She IS overly sensitive. She IS very reactive--to everything. No, that's NOT normal for her.

I'm good to go on this program as long as it's not hurting my horse. I am very, very aware of her general state of being. There is something she needs to be more comfortable. I don't know what that thing is, and neither do my very sharp traditional vets.

I'm just not willing to give up on this horse when I have multiple people telling me that they've seen these problems before and solved them. Maybe they are just scamming me, but what if they're NOT? I have to give my horse this chance. It's not even like what's being recommended is expensive or dangerous. How could I not try this stuff out?

jaimebaker
Dec. 5, 2008, 12:33 AM
I find this all fascinating and am anxious to hear if you see some results from the changes you make. I also commend you for going above and beyond the call of duty for your horse. Skeptic or not, it's good to have an open mind to these types of things. I wish you the best of luck:)

decorum
Dec. 5, 2008, 01:48 AM
neither do my very sharp traditional vets.

I'm just not willing to give up on this horse when I have multiple people telling me that they've seen these problems before and solved them. Maybe they are just scamming me, but what if they're NOT? I have to give my horse this chance. It's not even like what's being recommended is expensive or dangerous. How could I not try this stuff out?


I get you, Simkie. I was told it was crap but after doing every test imaginable for my horse and nothing worked and this did, I say go for it. Tomorrow I am going to actually get on him for the first time in 2 months, it will be a very short ride but I am going to actually DO something with him. Today when I was trimming him he was his old self, trying to grab my earings with his lips (they are just studs) and begging for rubs, I was so excited that I have him back, maybe, possibly. Know more in a day or so. If he drops 40 pounds in 24 hours from a 1/2 hour ride I will let you know. That is what happened last time I rode him for 35 minutes.

He and his donkey friend are playing so much that I do believe it is time for exercise.

dressagediosa
Dec. 5, 2008, 06:08 AM
I did one on my old Grand Prix horse a few months ago, and he's now on a custom supplement blend based on his results. His coat is INCREDIBLE, and he's moving very well. His results found a lot of inflammation, not "my-leg-is-puffy" inflammation but systemic, just a system on overdrive.

I was so impressed that I'm now awaiting results on my two other horses and a client horse. It's a COOL science.

RiverBendPol
Dec. 5, 2008, 11:51 AM
I find this all fascinating and am anxious to hear if you see some results from the changes you make. I also commend you for going above and beyond the call of duty for your horse. Skeptic or not, it's good to have an open mind to these types of things. I wish you the best of luck:)

I happen to believe Simkie is not going "beyond the call of duty" on her horse. She is her horse's steward and what she is doing is her responsibility. Once we take these beasts into our lives, it is up to us to keep them safe and comfortable. Not to take anyting away from what she's doing, I know exactly where she is, having gone through it with my EPSM Thoroughbred. (In 2002, this is what I heard from my vet: "TBs do not get EPSM. It is strictly seen in Drafts"). We are the problem solvers for our animals. I'm also with Simkie on her euthanasia outlook.

Thanks too, for giving us the nudge we needed. We have an NQR TB. We've done 4 years worth of trying to figure him out. Our own Voodoo Vet comes next week and we will discuss the hair thing with her again. Maybe this time we'll actually follow through on it!

EqTrainer
Dec. 5, 2008, 12:08 PM
While I have no knowledge as to whether or not the correlations drawn by Uckele are valid or not, I can say that from the beginning I wondered if Blush did not have systemic inflammation like an IR horse does. The chicken, the egg, when you have chronic pain.. she presented body wise at least, as an IR horse does, when their muscles aren't getting what they need to rebuild/heal.

Since I cure them mainly w/diet and exercise, I see no reason she should not try. .. I use a whole lot of Uckele's supplements and think they are, along w/Horsetech and Foxden, the absolute best.

Simkie, did she talk about addressing the copper directly? I think I would add copper, zinc, magnesium , amino's and selenium/E and see what that does before going any further.

Simkie
Dec. 5, 2008, 12:55 PM
EqT, the nutritionist did not recommend a copper supplement at this time. I'm not sure why, but it very well could be a palatability issue. The list of supplements that was included in the results did have a copper sup...they advised 20 tsp/week of the copper poly. (They listed several things that could be mixed into a custom blend for Blush.)

When I told the nutritionist how picky Blush is about her food, he recommended Seroquine (http://www.uckele.com/equine/ezecommerce.cfm?fuseaction=productdetail&productid=408) and B Complex (http://www.uckele.com/equine/ezecommerce.cfm?fuseaction=productdetail&productid=514). He said that these things were well tolerated and would help to regulate her "mixed metabolism". He said that once we treated that and got her a bit more stable, she would be less picky with her food (and less sensitive about everything) and we could use other supplements that are less palatable to help her.

I did ask him about IR, and he said absolutely NOT, which is what my vets here have been telling me.

deltawave
Dec. 5, 2008, 01:57 PM
It sounds like you've got the best possible attitude towards the situation. I hope something works out for your mare.

It just irks me that companies with no agenda other than a product to sell go bandying about terms like "mixed metabolism" and "inflammation" without really, really making clear what these things MEAN, and what their product is likely to do about it. Honestly, what does "mixed metabolism" actually mean? Is there a definition somewhere? I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around that term, other than acknowledging that it sounds vaguely scary and important. :no:

I really wish you luck, please take my skepticism for what it is--ingrained, difficult for even ME to live with sometimes, and not used as a means of criticism of ANY well-meaning person who cares for their loved ones. :) My criticism is reserved for those who would prey on them. :mad:

FillyMe
Dec. 6, 2008, 12:10 AM
I also got in touch with the voodoo vet yesterday, and she recommended an herbal product called liver happy to cleanse the liver, followed by a homeopathic treatment.

I am going to ask my local alternative vet person for guidance as well.

I'm not sure if I actually BELIEVE in most of this, but it's been interesting. And if this crazy stuff leads to my horse getting better, it will all be worth it.


Liver Happy is actually TCM, traditional Chinese medicine and it is not voodoo. My vet last year put my horse on that as well as another one, Calm Shen, and the results were pretty amazing. You are not really supposed to mix Eastern and Wetern medicine for the Chinese hernbs to work, so keep tht in mind. You can Google it and get some info to help you understand it. BTW, on the Ultimate Dressage Bulliten Board, there has been a thread going on there for almost a year of people who did the hair/mineral analysis but with a different company and the results are pretty astonishing to read. I have seen it first hand with both my horse and a mare at our barn. This one only costs $25 to do and they actually use saliva for the test. Sometimes you need to think outside the box.

RiverBendPol
Dec. 6, 2008, 11:00 AM
Liver Happy is actually TCM, traditional Chinese medicine and it is not voodoo. My vet last year put my horse on that as well as another one, Calm Shen, and the results were pretty amazing. You are not really supposed to mix Eastern and Wetern medicine for the Chinese hernbs to work, so keep tht in mind. You can Google it and get some info to help you understand it. BTW, on the Ultimate Dressage Bulliten Board, there has been a thread going on there for almost a year of people who did the hair/mineral analysis but with a different company and the results are pretty astonishing to read. I have seen it first hand with both my horse and a mare at our barn. This one only costs $25 to do and they actually use saliva for the test. Sometimes you need to think outside the box.

Link to thread, please? :winkgrin:

EqTrainer
Dec. 6, 2008, 11:19 AM
Simkie, I really think you should do some research about glucose and how it affects muscles. Horses don't wake up one day IR. They slowly move into it. For some reason you really don't want to even consider this possiblity about Blush, even tho' she has been in chronic pain for a long time... which can cause it. You wanted the neck injection to cure it all and it hasn't.. now you say you are thinking out of the box but that particular box you won't even consider. I don't understand that AT ALL. Yes, she might not be IR at this point.. but she could be losing her glucose function slowly due to increased cortisol levels.

Guilherme
Dec. 6, 2008, 11:34 AM
It would seem to me that the "bottom line" here is that while this might be valuable technique for evaluation of some aspects of equine health the geneneral purpose commercial labs are not adequate to the job.

Are dedicated medical or forensic labs more reliable? Are there any national standards promulgated by credentialing authorities? If so is the lab in question in compliance with those standards? These are the sorts of questions that are routinely asked and answered in the medical and legal world. I would think that the vet. world would ask the same questions.

Of course testing from a credentialed facility will likely cost more, as maintenance of external standads often costs more. But maybe you'd get what you pay for?

G.

Ghazzu
Dec. 6, 2008, 11:43 AM
but she could be losing her glucose function slowly due to increased cortisol levels.

What is glucose function?
(not snarking, just have no idea what the phrase means)

BornToRide
Dec. 6, 2008, 12:02 PM
Listen guys, I KNOW that hair mineral analysis is certainly not a proven method for analyzing deficiencies and excesses. I'm not an idiot.

I have done EVERYTHING possible for this horse and she's still not quite right. As I said in my FIRST post, I am willing to suspend some disbelief here and quiet my eyerolling enough to speak with the voodoo vet about my horse and what to do next. I do think it's interested that she thought Blush had Al toxicity and the results came back with Al right off the chart.

With a horse like Blush, this is just another tool in the box. If it gets me somewhere, great. If it doesn't, oh well.

decorum, Blush has had some neurological issues stemming from bony change at C6/C7.Gosh, thanks for clearing this up :D The hair analysis also is a snap shot of the past and does not tell what's going on currently!


What is glucose function?
(not snarking, just have no idea what the phrase means)If she's possible IR, her body is less able to get glucose into the tissue thanks to the resistance to insulin. I think this is what she meant.

EqTrainer
Dec. 6, 2008, 12:23 PM
What is glucose function?
(not snarking, just have no idea what the phrase means)

It takes more insulin to drive glucose into the cells when cortisol is high.

Too much cortisol, caused by stressors, over a prolonged period of time, results in excessive breakdown of all structural tissues of the body including muscle, bone, skin and brain, causing accelerated aging.

When your cortisol stays high you also won’t produce enough growth hormone or thyroid-stimulating hormone, which are important anabolic [tissue building] hormones.

--

Ghazzu, I just pulled these excerpts out of some research that I used to understand the relationship between high cortisol and muscle soreness. Of course growth hormone is necessary to restore muscles after the daily wear and tear. I see such a link between chronic pain and IR in horses,

It's a vicious cycle, no doubt.

BornToRide
Dec. 6, 2008, 12:59 PM
I had several discussion on this subject with Doris Halstead - she's convinced that Fibromyalgia in humans for example is rooted primarily in a diet high in simple carbs. From my own experiences I tend to agree with her on this and horses may respond in similar ways to similar triggers.

EqTrainer
Dec. 6, 2008, 01:07 PM
I have fibro. For me, it's a sleep disorder. No sleep equals no growth hormone equals muscle pain. I sleep, I recover, I'm ok. No sleep (I am by nature, an insomniac) and I crash after about three days.

I have never eaten a high simple carb diet.

But I have no doubt it could be a player for other people.

Sometimes I think this is why I am so sympathetic to the muscle sore horses :lol:

LMH
Dec. 6, 2008, 01:08 PM
BTR-I have been meaning to ask you this-what exactly do you feed your horses? Do you supplement with minerals and such ? Or more a JJ whole foods concept?

Ghazzu
Dec. 6, 2008, 01:12 PM
It takes more insulin to drive glucose into the cells when cortisol is high.

Too much cortisol, caused by stressors, over a prolonged period of time, results in excessive breakdown of all structural tissues of the body including muscle, bone, skin and brain, causing accelerated aging.

When your cortisol stays high you also won’t produce enough growth hormone or thyroid-stimulating hormone, which are important anabolic [tissue building] hormones.

--

Ghazzu, I just pulled these excerpts out of some research that I used to understand the relationship between high cortisol and muscle soreness. Of course growth hormone is necessary to restore muscles after the daily wear and tear. I see such a link between chronic pain and IR in horses,

It's a vicious cycle, no doubt.

Surprisingly, perhaps, I'm aware of the physiology involved.
It was merely the terminology employed that had me baffled.
I've not heretofore seen it referred to as "glucose function".

EqTrainer
Dec. 6, 2008, 01:31 PM
Oh, I knew that you knew :)
It's not a medical term.. I deal with horsepeople, not doctors or vets, for the most part. Sorry. I try to make it as simple as possible unless asked for further detail.

deltawave
Dec. 6, 2008, 04:16 PM
I'm convinced there's a Santa Claus.

I can't believe y'all are lecturing a VET on metabolism. :lol:

FatPalomino
Dec. 6, 2008, 04:53 PM
I'm convinced there's a Santa Claus.

I can't believe y'all are lecturing a VET on metabolism. :lol:

Haha!!!

I *just* happened to be going over ENDOCRINE PHYSIOLOGY. ;) Although I am not a vet but hope to be one soon ;)

I wish I could cut and past a diagram of this axis, but I can't. Here is the caption:

"Hypothalamic-Adenohypophseal-Adrenocortical Axis. Note that ACTH secretion is promoted by CRH and inhibited by cortisol (negative feedback), produced in the zona fasciculata. Cortisol also inhibits secretion of CRH. Steroid hormones of the zona glomerulosa and zona reticularis (not illustrated) exert little to no feedback control of CRH and ACTH secretion."

It goes on to say:
"a) ACTH secretion is stimulated by CRH. Secretion of CRH is promoted by stressful physical, chemical and emotional stimuli, such as trauma, exercise, hemorrhage, pain, hypoglycemia, LPS, overcrowding, extremes in external temperature, etc.
b) ACTH secretion is inhibited by cortisol secreted by the adrenal cortex (negative feedback)"

CRH (coricotrophin releasing hormone) has an anorexic effect. Inhibiting/decreasing CRH causes an polyphasia (seen in cushings animals high in ACTH).

Blush has a long history of going off her feed, which I was attempting to tie into to these short blurbs of pre-clinical information I am trying to tie together.

Would this explain why horses in chronic pain are less likely to be interested in feed (due to increased CRH)? BUT, Cortisol is also a stress hormone, and it inhibits the secreation of CRH. Ghazzu, any thoughts?

My other thought is to make sure you look at the whole horse. I think, often times, that is overlooked. Look at environmental stimuli/turnout/is she more painful on hard/frozen ground (seasonal), etc etc. Simkie, I think I saw you mention that Blush is doing much better now, right? I hope so. You have surely been through the ringer with her.

EqTrainer
Dec. 6, 2008, 05:31 PM
I'm convinced there's a Santa Claus.

I can't believe y'all are lecturing a VET on metabolism. :lol:


Umm.. I'm not lecturing Ghazzu.. or anyone, for that matter. She asked me a question, I answered it.

Geez DW, have an eggnog. Be sure to put some rum in it. BTW, are you a transplanted southerner? Either way, bless your heart!

PonyPile
Dec. 6, 2008, 05:44 PM
I'm convinced there's a Santa Claus.

I can't believe y'all are lecturing a VET on metabolism. :lol:

Being a vet does not make one an expert on everything animal related, even the really good vets ;)

Simkie
Dec. 6, 2008, 06:13 PM
Simkie, I really think you should do some research about glucose and how it affects muscles. Horses don't wake up one day IR. They slowly move into it. For some reason you really don't want to even consider this possiblity about Blush, even tho' she has been in chronic pain for a long time... which can cause it. You wanted the neck injection to cure it all and it hasn't.. now you say you are thinking out of the box but that particular box you won't even consider. I don't understand that AT ALL. Yes, she might not be IR at this point.. but she could be losing her glucose function slowly due to increased cortisol levels.


Are you EFFING kidding me?

Hello? HOW many vets have looked at this horse? From traditional vets to non traditional vets to out-there crazy vets. NONE OF THOSE PEOPLE THINK THIS HORSE IS IR. Not a SINGLE ONE. I have asked them ALL if she could be IR.

Don't you think, perhaps, that I should trust the people who have actually SEEN the damned horse?

I've had enough of you. You're just a one trick pony. Get over yourself. You're just as bad as BtR. Every single horse alive is not IR, as much as you would like them all to be.

grayarabpony
Dec. 6, 2008, 06:40 PM
Simkie, that was just obnoxious.

You need to read EqTrainer's post again and look at what she's trying to say.

EqTrainer
Dec. 6, 2008, 06:45 PM
Actually... no. I think there could be a lot of other things wrong w/your horse. But not having ever seen her, only being able to read your list of ongoing symptoms, that is the most obvious possibility.

But sometimes the beginning of something is overlooked until it is very obvious.

My vet is the *first* one to mention this when we are discussing something obscure and hard to diagnose.

I'm really am sorry that your horse is still sore. I am of the ilk that if mine were that way, I'd be sure happy to try changing her feed and giving her a couple of other supplements. It's easy and you have nothing to lose.

Instead.. you are going to follow a hair analysis. I sincerely hope it works, I will be the first one cheering you on and taking notes if it does. I can understand how frustrated you are and how it seems like I must be nuts if your vet doesn't think she is.. so I won't mention it again.

Simkie
Dec. 6, 2008, 06:59 PM
Actually... no. I think there could be a lot of other things wrong w/your horse. But not having ever seen her, only being able to read your list of ongoing symptoms, that is the most obvious possibility.


EqT, it is VERY frustrating for me for you to assume that I have not considered IR. I have considered it. My many vets have considered it. And the resounding answer is NO. Absolutely, unequivocally, NO. No one has even said "well, maybe..." But you keep showing up and telling me my horse is IR. I keep telling you we've looked into it and my slew of vets has considered it, and no, she's not.

A "simple feed change" is NOT simple with this horse. She's eating right now. I have a whole list of things she won't eat. I have a whole list of things that, added to her grain, will put her off her feed. There is no waiting this horse out, unless I want to her lose several hundred pounds in the process, and probably not even then would she eat. So yes, there IS quite a bit to lose.

If you have other thoughts, I'd love to hear them. But I am really, really tired of defending the fact that no, my horse is not IR.

I am not ready to make a move on the hair test results. I think it's interesting information. I'm still not sure what the next move is. We may go down the path of the alternative vet, or we may try the sups the Uckele guy recommended, or we may try something different.

And, I'll say this again: Blush is HUGELY improved from where we started. The neck injections and the gabapentin have been enormously helpful. She is still touchy, but certainly not out of the realm that others would consider normal for a TB or for a mare or for a clipped horse in winter or whatever. Perhaps my posts are unwittingly painting a bleaker picture. *I* am still concerned about her. I know most people would not be at this point.

BornToRide
Dec. 6, 2008, 09:22 PM
I have fibro. For me, it's a sleep disorder. No sleep equals no growth hormone equals muscle pain. I sleep, I recover, I'm ok. No sleep (I am by nature, an insomniac) and I crash after about three days.

I have never eaten a high simple carb diet.

But I have no doubt it could be a player for other people.

Sometimes I think this is why I am so sympathetic to the muscle sore horses :lol:Sounds to me like your adrenals may need more support. Adrenal issues usually interfere with sleep this way. You might find the info on this site really interesting :) http://www.drrind.com/scorecardmatrix.asp


BTR-I have been meaning to ask you this-what exactly do you feed your horses? Do you supplement with minerals and such ? Or more a JJ whole foods concept?All you can eat grass hay, snacks of alfalfa, low carb hay pellets to mix his supplements in, Dynamite Probiotics, salt, Chamisa Ridge Daily Herbal mix, Mag-Ox and I just started him on Equipride to see what this does for him.

BornToRide
Dec. 6, 2008, 09:32 PM
I'm convinced there's a Santa Claus.

I can't believe y'all are lecturing a VET on metabolism. :lol:Sadly, we have to do this about 90% of the time because most vets simply are not yet familiar with IR or how to test for it or how to treat it.........A friend almost lost her two horses to founder because the attending veterinarian NEVER advised her of diet modifications, nor perhaps testing for Cushings, to make sure this was not also a contributing factor. And of course they got the typical, no movement and wedging shoeing crap too.

I referred her to my friend at the time, who's a barefoot trimmer and who specializes in laminitis and founder. She helped the owner save those two, horse, one of which also has Cushings! The consulted veterinarian should have been able to do the same and unfortunately he was/is NOT an exception :(:cry:


Who's the vet here who was being lectured? :)


Are you EFFING kidding me?

Hello? HOW many vets have looked at this horse? From traditional vets to non traditional vets to out-there crazy vets. NONE OF THOSE PEOPLE THINK THIS HORSE IS IR. Not a SINGLE ONE. I have asked them ALL if she could be IR.

Don't you think, perhaps, that I should trust the people who have actually SEEN the damned horse?

I've had enough of you. You're just a one trick pony. Get over yourself. You're just as bad as BtR. Every single horse alive is not IR, as much as you would like them all to be.You ask for advise and then you shoot the messenger too??!! Bless you for how blissfully grateful you are! :rolleyes: You cannot tell by just looking at a horse whether or not the horse is IR or Cushings. Some signs are so subtle they are missed. You need to test for it to find out for sure!

One of my friend's client's Arab showed none of the typical Cushings symptoms, none whatsoever, yet my friend noticed some signs that made her believe he had it and sure enough AND his levels were the highest our vet had EVER seen!!!!

If you had your horse tested and you know for sure, well then fine, but unless you have it tested, you cannot 100% rule it out, especially if your horse does not seem to be quite right and you have a hard time pinpointing it!

Hope you find the answer for your horse's sake!

FatPalomino
Dec. 6, 2008, 10:04 PM
Sadly, we have to do this about 90% of the time because most vets simply are not yet familiar with IR or how to test for it or how to treat it........

One of my friend's client's Arab showed none of the typical Cushings symptoms, none whatsoever, yet my friend noticed some signs that made her believe he had it and sure enough AND his levels were the highest our vet had EVER seen!!!!



i⋅ro⋅ny
/ˈaɪrəni, ˈaɪər-/ [ahy-ruh-nee, ahy-er-]
definition:
the incongruity of this.

FatPalomino
Dec. 6, 2008, 10:05 PM
Being a vet does not make one an expert on everything animal related, even the really good vets ;)

However, being a barefoot trimmer, or at least playing on a a BB, does make you an expert on everything animal and even an expert in human internal medicine. ;)

jn4jenny
Dec. 6, 2008, 10:07 PM
You ask for advise and then you shoot the messenger too??!! Bless you for how blissfully grateful you are! :rolleyes: You cannot tell by just looking at a horse whether or not the horse is IR or Cushings. Some signs are so subtle they are missed. You need to test for it to find out for sure!

And now a DOCTOR is being lectured on the subtlety of disease symptoms and the importance of testing. :rolleyes:


One of my friend's client's Arab showed none of the typical Cushings symptoms, none whatsoever, yet my friend noticed some signs that made her believe he had it and sure enough AND his levels were the highest our vet had EVER seen!!!!

Weren't you just talking about SUBTLE symptoms?


If you had your horse tested and you know for sure, well then fine

I dunno about you, but I found it blatantly obvious from Simkie's previous posts that she's had this horse tested left, right, and sideways, including for IR.

BornToRide
Dec. 6, 2008, 10:38 PM
However, being a barefoot trimmer, or at least playing on a a BB, does make you an expert on everything animal and even an expert in human internal medicine. ;):confused::confused: I never claimed to be - that's your a$$umption......:rolleyes:



I dunno about you, but I found it blatantly obvious from Simkie's previous posts that she's had this horse tested left, right, and sideways, including for IR.
If she indeed did, and please show me, cause I can't find it, then the question becomes, but was the horse tested correctly??!! Many vets still do not know how. They either test for just the glucose levels or just the insulin levels, or if they test for both, they do not look at the ratio between the two. But if any one vet actually did exactly that and the horse was found not to be IR, well by all means, I stand corrected.


And now a DOCTOR is being lectured on the subtlety of disease symptoms and the importance of testing. :rolleyes:
Simkie is a doctor too?? Then she should know better.



Weren't you just talking about SUBTLE symptoms?
Not sure what you mean by that.

Simkie
Dec. 7, 2008, 12:47 AM
BtR, just a FYI: you're on ignore. You've been on ignore for a long time. I only see your posts when someone quotes you. I got tired about reading how every problem in every horse was due to IR.

Blush has had a ton of bloodwork. I don't have copies of most of it. It's always been normal. I am, however, just dying to test her Al levels now...

FP, I owe you a beer :lol: :lol:

FatPalomino
Dec. 7, 2008, 03:14 AM
FP, I owe you a beer :lol: :lol:

LOL. I need one. I woke up to the sound that resembled someone trying to open my bedroom window. By the time I had the courage to look (after I told the dog to start barking and look around), we didn't see anyone... but I may need a few beers to rest my head again tonight!

You can warn Blush about the new CANTER CO. I swear, sometimes, the horses really don't appreciate just how well they have it.

Simkie
Dec. 18, 2008, 12:29 AM
Just a quick follow up on this:

Blush has been on some homeopathic stuff and one herbal thing (http://www.standardprocess.com/display/StandardProcessCatalog.spi?ID=12) for a week now. She is considerably improved. She no longer bites and kicks when being groomed--her ears are up instead--and nearly all of her back soreness is resolved. Nothing else has changed.

As a former biochemistry major, it's damned hard for me to believe in this voodoo, but my horse is better. Perhaps she would have improved with no intervention. I just don't know.

It's been a crazy ride, this thing.

(FP, are you done with school?)

deltawave
Dec. 18, 2008, 01:50 PM
Cow liver, eewww. :dead: ;)

jn4jenny
Dec. 18, 2008, 05:55 PM
JBlush has been on some homeopathic stuff and one herbal thing (http://www.standardprocess.com/display/StandardProcessCatalog.spi?ID=12) for a week now. She is considerably improved. She no longer bites and kicks when being groomed--her ears are up instead--and nearly all of her back soreness is resolved. Nothing else has changed.

As a former biochemistry major, it's damned hard for me to believe in this voodoo, but my horse is better. Perhaps she would have improved with no intervention. I just don't know.

It's been a crazy ride, this thing.

Simkie, I'm so glad to hear that it--whatever "it" may be--is making Blush an enjoyable partner again! Now if only it didn't have some kooky name like Liver Happy...

EqTrainer
Dec. 18, 2008, 06:01 PM
The ingredient list/print is too fine for my old eyes to read without my glasses...

can someone post what it is and the ingredients? Sorry if that's too much bother, I will find my glasses otherwise later :)

It is always interesting to look at things and try to figure out what component is helpful.

Of course, as jn4jenny said, it's just nice to have your horse feeling good, too :)

deltawave
Dec. 18, 2008, 08:35 PM
Dried buckwheat juice, buckwheat (seed), dried pea (vine) juice, oat flour, bovine liver, beet (root), extract of Rhizopus oryzae grown on Tillandsia usneoides and beet (root), dried beet (leaf) juice, and ascorbic acid.

Other Ingredients: Honey, calcium stearate, vitamin A palmitate, and gelatin.

FatPalomino
Dec. 19, 2008, 12:03 AM
Simkie, give me a call when you get a chance. I am done with school but just a little chilly ;)
(970) 443 4113. I'd love to see Blush. I haven't done any riding... since today has been the first day it was above freezing all week ;)

MassageLady
Dec. 19, 2008, 06:51 AM
There is a woman in Texas-Patsy Bullard who does testing also - for about $20. There is a long post on Ultimate Dressage about her, and how much her testing and suggestions have helped numerous horses.