I was surprised to read that GM advocates....

[Beau Cheval]

Dropping a horse in front of a jump right before going into the ring and purposefully causing them to hit their last warm-up (something that comes up often on poling threads)
and giving a horse Bute/Banamine in "reasonable doses" throughout their career to keep them comfortable. Considering the rest of his training program, that wouldn't seem necessary anyways.

I'm a huge GM fan, but those two comments (in Because Every Round Counts) surprised me quite a bit.

opinions?

[hedmbl]

Dropping a horse in the schooling ring is very common. If you have a less careful horse it can mean the difference b/t being in the prize money/possibly winning and having faults. It doesn't harm the horse in any way but a good rub is what you want before heading in to keep them sharp. It is not poling IMO as it is the horses own doing and people aren't making the fence 'jump at them'. I can't remember how many times George and several other BNT's I've worked/work with have repeated the mantra of wanting your rails at home and in the schooling ring.

Bute/Banamine within legal limits are necessary for some seasoned campaigners. I don't think he's talking about just medicating for the sake of medicating but I'd, personally, much rather see a horse on a gram of bute during a show going around comfortably then a sore horse trying to do its job. Ideally they won't need anything (my horses are golden on adequan/legend and platinum CJ with nothing else) but they are animals, not machines and I know I appreciate a couple advil after a hard day of showing and all I'm doing is riding not physically jumping and landing hard repeatedly.

Not really sure what the problem is....:confused:

[LexInVA]

Well, he's oldschool. Lots of the traditionalists and old guard guys do things a bit rough. Even McLain Ward, who was PV's protege, does his own little bit of it.

[lauriep]

Why? Horses need reminders of their job. They need to know how to get themselves out of trouble. Since poling, offsets, swedish oxers, etc., are all illegal at shows, how do you propose to remind them in the confines of the schooling area? The horse isn't abused, he gets a rub, for Pete's sake.

Bute/banamine, in therapeutic doses, do the same as a couple of aspirin for us. He doesn't mean they live on it. But at the end of a competition, they can have a comfortable night and rest day before resuming showing. Or, after a hard school at home. Coupled with a dose of Ulcergard or Gastrogard to protect the stomach, why not?

[CAJumper]

lauriep said it perfectly. :yes:

[mroades]

what lauriep said....sheesh

[hideyourheart03]

AMEN lauriep. IMO, some people on this board are getting bent out of shape over little things. Bute/Banamine and rubs are the LEAST of the worries of the horse show world.

[Beau Cheval]

Not disagreeing at all. It's funny how on some threads it is like PITA and on some threads it's like, gosh, they weigh 1500 pounds, they need a reminder every once and a while. :lol:

[Huntrs+eq]

Does nobody else read old threads? As in last page? Like this thread-- http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=35814?
...Just goes to show that nobody's perfect.

[hedmbl]

Does nobody else read old threads? As in last page? Like this thread-- http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=35814?
...Just goes to show that nobody's perfect.

That's common knowledge but this thread has nothing to do with poling, rather letting a horse get a rub on his/her own and the use of bute as a therapeutic agent :rolleyes: No one said anyone was perfect.

[3Dogs]

thanks LaurieP...:yes:

[fair judy]

it is simple good horsemanship to remind your horse to pick up those hooves! as to bute? inflammation takes much more of a toll than most are willing to recognize. judicious use of bute is not only reasonable, it is imperative.

there is NO dosage of bute which will make a compromised horse sound.

[Huntrs+eq]

Sorry--not intending to attack him. Just wanted to point out another method he advocates (that some may find surprising). I think all these methods, when used conscientiously, should be acceptable.

[Mocha0303]

To me... a dose of bute/banamine is no different than those of us that take a morning tylenol or aspirin... I know I take something when I've been walking the hard ground at a show for consecutive days! If a horse is not sound a bit of bute or banamine is not going to conceal it.

[Big Yellow Taxi]

Getting a rub doesnt work. Simple as that.

With most horses you can get him to give a little extra air over 10 or 12 fences he's going to handle anyway, but on the one fence where you get too close, too slow, whatever, the horse with the rub will give up and hit it in a way that he's sure the fence rather than the horse is the one that's coming down.

Just one more way George Morris is behind the times and not worthy of serious attention.

[PNWjumper]

Getting a rub doesnt work. Simple as that.

With most horses you can get him to give a little extra air over 10 or 12 fences he's going to handle anyway, but on the one fence where you get too close, too slow, whatever, the horse with the rub will give up and hit it in a way that he's sure the fence rather than the horse is the one that's coming down.

Just one more way George Morris is behind the times and not worthy of serious attention.

So obviously you've never had a horse that it worked on. That doesn't mean that it doesn't work. And I don't know what you're implying that dropping a horse in front of a fence does.....I've certainly never had any of mine think that the options were a) the fence falls or b) they fall. :rolleyes:

I had a horse for a long time who tended towards getting lazy over great distances (he'd jump the hell out of a bad distance and NEVER touched a rail in those cases), but often just barely dragged his hind end over the first or second fence in the class. Getting a rub before we went in often meant the difference between winning and not placing. You can bet your ass that we got a rub as often as we could by the time we got up to the big money classes.

And while there are (of course) horses that will react in the way you've described, there are just as many who don't.

As with EVERYTHING IN LIFE....a tool is just that. It's not inherently good or bad. Applied appropriately and thoughtfully it can help make a difference between the winner and everyone else. A tool applied inappropriately (whether it be to the wrong horse or wrong rider, or the tool itself applied with the wrong intent) of course has the potential to do more harm than good. And both of the things mentioned (dropping a horse in front of a fence and poling) CAN be tools.

As for George Morris.....he's a gifted horseman. I don't think his intent is that ALL horses should be dropped in front of a fence or that ALL horses should be given bute or banamine all the time, and certainly not that drugs should be used to mask lameness so that a horse can be shown. I think his point is that both things *should* be acceptable as in the majority of the cases neither are inherently dangerous or bad. I mean seriously....don't you ever take aspirin at a show? Or the day after exerting yourself particularly hard?

[Big Yellow Taxi]

Nahhh. I dont exert myself much.

[Kementari]

I have no problem with the moderate, legal use of bute/banamine to help a horse feel good. I take Advil at the end of a long show day, too.

I find the idea of purposely and routinely dropping a horse in front of a fence unsettling. I would worry that it would simply teach my horse that I am not to be trusted in directing him, and eventually get us into big trouble some time when he really NEEDED to trust me. (I screw up often enough without doing it on purpose! ;)) But perhaps that's the eventer talking, and hunters don't worry about it...

[DancingQueen]

Sometimes older or less careful horses who routinely gets ridden to perfect spots will become a little blase and overconfident and in need of a little reminder.

It's mostly not a matter of purposely blowing a jump out as that wold perhaps scare a horse (that wasn't completely dead in the legs Lol). Lying to him and riding him through the distance can certainly be something he will start to hold against you after a while.

Dropping him is not about making him take a bad spot but rather about finding a somewhat forward distance to the base and simply letting the horse deal with what's coming up rather then helping him out.
Kind of saying "Here's the jump, you figure it out!"

If you get a rub, good. If he shortens himself up and pats the ground, then he's already paying attention and probably good to go.

IMO This kind of ride can certainly help you while on course also. If your horse is getting used to having to think for himself when you drop him he will most likely back himself up and make a bigger effort if you end up seeing the same distance somewhere else.

[fourmares]

I think there's a difference between what GM means when he says dropping a horse in front of the fence and purposely getting a rub and what most amatures think when they hear dropping a horse in front of a fence. If simply accidently dropping them in front of a jump made a horse jump better most ammy horses would jump the heck out of almost everything...

As far as bute and banamine... I think that they ought to be allowed (say 2 grams) for horses over a certain age and jumping under a certain height. Say horses over the age of 10 jumping 3ft or under.

[Release First]

Right on Dancing Queen! I think that maybe the term "dropping" in front of the fence is what might be confusing people. Most often when you see someone riding and you think, "Wow, she just dropped that horse.", you are talking about a rider who is riding to a distance and suddenly just jumps up the neck and releases the horse. When I have used the schooling "Drop the horse", I have the rider drop the horse several strides before the fence. After the rhythm, distance, etc. has been established. The horse is not being lied to but is given the chance to think for himself or to take over and hit the fence. This can be very effective and used with the right horse will not scare them. It will just get them to think, which is a great attribute.

[PNWjumper]

Right on Dancing Queen! I think that maybe the term "dropping" in front of the fence is what might be confusing people. Most often when you see someone riding and you think, "Wow, she just dropped that horse.", you are talking about a rider who is riding to a distance and suddenly just jumps up the neck and releases the horse. When I have used the schooling "Drop the horse", I have the rider drop the horse several strides before the fence. After the rhythm, distance, etc. has been established. The horse is not being lied to but is given the chance to think for himself or to take over and hit the fence. This can be very effective and used with the right horse will not scare them. It will just get them to think, which is a great attribute.

Well put, Release First.

I've been struggling to understand how dropping a horse in front of a fence could be construed as such a bad or dangerous thing. It didn't occur to me that anyone would think of it that way.

[Moogles]

I watched the warm ups at the Master's in Spruce Meadows last Sept, and let me tell you a lot of Olympians set the last jump up before their round so the horse would rub. Some would raise a pole slightly off the ground and walk their horse over it, it was just high enough so the horse knocked it down. Didn't look like it hurt the horse, just a reminer to pick thier feet up. Now I am a dressage rider, so I don't have too much experience with jumping (only did up to 3ft as a kid), but this seemed to be common practice among the elite.

[JustJump]

What's bad about "dropping" a horse to leave him alone to do his own job and learn from a mistake if he chooses to make one? You can't MAKE a careful horse hit a jump if it chooses to jump clean--even the best can't MAKE that happen all the time if the horse is sharp enough. You can however, give a careless horse an opportunity to jump clean, or not--and often this type will hit the jump. And learn not to, as a consequence.

[mroades]

Getting a rub doesnt work. Simple as that.

With most horses you can get him to give a little extra air over 10 or 12 fences he's going to handle anyway, but on the one fence where you get too close, too slow, whatever, the horse with the rub will give up and hit it in a way that he's sure the fence rather than the horse is the one that's coming down.

Just one more way George Morris is behind the times and not worthy of serious attention.


Umm, yeah, GM is so irrelevant that we just won the GOLD MEDAL in Olympic showjumping.....

[Andrew]

Why? Horses need reminders of their job. They need to know how to get themselves out of trouble. Since poling, offsets, swedish oxers, etc., are all illegal at shows, how do you propose to remind them in the confines of the schooling area? The horse isn't abused, he gets a rub, for Pete's sake.

Bute/banamine, in therapeutic doses, do the same as a couple of aspirin for us. He doesn't mean they live on it. But at the end of a competition, they can have a comfortable night and rest day before resuming showing. Or, after a hard school at home. Coupled with a dose of Ulcergard or Gastrogard to protect the stomach, why not?


LaurieP ALWAYS sound excellent comments!!!!!

[hedmbl]

Right on Dancing Queen! I think that maybe the term "dropping" in front of the fence is what might be confusing people. Most often when you see someone riding and you think, "Wow, she just dropped that horse.", you are talking about a rider who is riding to a distance and suddenly just jumps up the neck and releases the horse. When I have used the schooling "Drop the horse", I have the rider drop the horse several strides before the fence. After the rhythm, distance, etc. has been established. The horse is not being lied to but is given the chance to think for himself or to take over and hit the fence. This can be very effective and used with the right horse will not scare them. It will just get them to think, which is a great attribute.

Like PNWJumper I was having alot of trouble understanding why people thought dropping a horse in front of a fence was a bad/dangerous thing. That makes more sense. I suppose if you've never used/heard of the technique it could be confusing. Great post.

[Anyplace Farm]

Just one more way George Morris is behind the times and not worthy of serious attention.

I think this remark here is the probably the most stupid thing I have ever heard. The proof is in the pudding Big Assed Taxi.

[fair judy]

:lol::lol::lol::lol: guys ...."big yelling maxi" is the former "material girl" who was banned from the forum three days ago for outrageous and provocative vomitus in the off course section.

she must be back at boarding school and using a new ISP. ( do they have kindergarten for boarding students?):lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Come Shine]

I think there's a difference between what GM means when he says dropping a horse in front of the fence and purposely getting a rub and what most amatures think when they hear dropping a horse in front of a fence. If simply accidently dropping them in front of a jump made a horse jump better most ammy horses would jump the heck out of almost everything...

lol. How true!

[Portia]

It's the use of the term "dropping" that may be confusing. At first I thought the same thing and pictured the "unintentional" form of dropping, which amateurs like me are all too guilty of on occasion. :) But what Lauriep and the others are talking about is what my trainer means when she says "leave him alone and let him figure it out for himself." And that's a very useful training technique. :yes:

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I find the idea of purposely and routinely dropping a horse in front of a fence unsettling. I would worry that it would simply teach my horse that I am not to be trusted in directing him, and eventually get us into big trouble some time when he really NEEDED to trust me. (I screw up often enough without doing it on purpose! ;)) But perhaps that's the eventer talking, and hunters don't worry about it...


It is the opposite....it reminds them that damn, that person on top isn't perfect and I better take care of them since they obviously can miss. If they are super careful already, or a horse that has confidence issues, well then of course you wouldn't do it with that horse. And FWIW, I'm an eventer as well....it is even more important for use that they are carefu!

Done correctly, it isn't a drop in the sense of rider errror...you don't bury them on a half stride. And you don't do it often. I was always taught that it was putting them to a bit of a deeper distance and not "helping" or supporting as much as you would in the class (and you ONLY do it once right before you go in). You don't get in their way either. It is NOT something to be done by riders who can't see a distance or stay the hell out of their horse's way. You don't want to give them a really bad ride......and with most of us mortals....it happens without us even trying. ;)

[Ruby G. Weber]

LP is correct. One other ingredient to remember - GHM is talking about "dropping" the horse when the horse is ridden to an exact distance - probably a bit deep - by a very accurate rider. He is not advocating this technique for the rider with the inconsistent eye.

One can also define "dropping" as "letting go" in front of the jump. When done with purpose it can a) serve as a reminder to the horse to respect the jump if the horse hits the jump when "dropped", b) help the horse learn to "back up" and find it's own balance in front of the jump or c) a softening of the feel can, on some horses, relax them just before take off. (Note: in all of the above the rider's upper body does not hint at assuming the jump position until the horse actually leaves the ground.)

It IS a very techinical method of training and probably should only be employed by upper level riders.

As far as the Bute/Banamine goes - good horsemanship includes fighting inflammation with cold hydrotherapy, bandaging, GameReady and NSAIDs. (As an aside the FEI ought to go back to allowing small doses of Bute.)

[eclipse]

LP is correct. One other ingredient to remember - GHM is talking about "dropping" the horse when the horse is ridden to an exact distance - probably a bit deep - by a very accurate rider. He is not advocating this technique for the rider with the inconsistent eye.

One can also define "dropping" as "letting go" in front of the jump. When done with purpose it can a) serve as a reminder to the horse to respect the jump if the horse hits the jump when "dropped", b) help the horse learn to "back up" and find it's own balance in front of the jump or c) a softening of the feel can, on some horses, relax them just before take off. (Note: in all of the above the rider's upper body does not hint at assuming the jump position until the horse actually leaves the ground.)

It IS a very techinical method of training and probably should only be employed by upper level riders.

As far as the Bute/Banamine goes - good horsemanship includes fighting inflammation with cold hydrotherapy, bandaging, GameReady and NSAIDs. (As an aside the FEI ought to go back to allowing small doses of Bute.)

Ding ding....along with Lauriep another great answer. This is something I do at shows too. If my mare wants to be lazy then better to "tap" the rail now & then be reminded to pay attention. And, if I do this and she still jumps the snot out of the warm-up fence, I KNOW we are good to go! It's NOT rapping.........rapping is having someone (or something) physically move the rail UPTO the horse jumping (no matter how high they jump with rapping they are going to hit the fence). THAT just teaches them to be afraid of the jump!


And, for the Bute.......non-issue in my books. If "I" can take an aspirin why can't my horse? No amount of bute is going to mask a lame horse anyway!

[arizonard]

I'll have to agree with the general consensus. "Dropping" a horse in front of a fence in warm up is not a sin to me. It makes good sense to remind them that they need to do a little thinking to. A little rub can make a big impact on some horses. I do agree that there are some out there who seem to think it is fun to see how hard they can rub a rail though! ;)

Bute and Banamine are NSAIDs like aspirin and tylenol. I can't see how anyone would get too worried about their use. In low doses they are not going to mask a very significant problem, but can be enough to take the edge off sore muscles and joints. Many of us could use a bit of help after a long week of showing!

[Meggan82]

I don't see a problem with it.

There are times when my coach asks me to ride a few warm-up fences "like you want to punch out the top rail."

You know what, if my horse does smack the top rail, the next time thru he jumps about a foot higher!! :lol::yes:

[Sunny's Mom]

Umm, yeah, GM is so irrelevant that we just won the GOLD MEDAL in Olympic showjumping.....

ROFL, I was thinking the EXACT same thing when I read the taxi post.

[Kementari]

That makes more sense. :yes: I certainly do exercises where I establish a rhythm and then get out of the way so my horse can work it out (actually, I do it a fair amount, as I DO want my horse to be able to think for himself when necessary!). "Dropping" to me implies riding up to the last stride asking the horse to let YOU make the decisions and then saying, "Ha! Fooled you! NOW you're on your own!" And while I certainly do that unintentionally sometimes (and generally drop a rail when it happens), I wouldn't do it on purpose. I think it's just semantics. :yes:

[Bluehorsesjp]

As far as bute and banamine... I think that they ought to be allowed (say 2 grams) for horses over a certain age and jumping under a certain height. Say horses over the age of 10 jumping 3ft or under.

Are you kidding me.
I have 2 15+ year olds jumping around the AA and MoJam jumpers. Yes they get 2 grams of bute every night when they are showing. Showing takes a toll on all of our old bodies, I take advil, they get their bute and are able to do their one or possibly 2 classes a day.
They are not lame with out the bute, but they are not body sore with it.
You all need to lighten up a bit.
Bute is a tool to be used judiciously, not abused.

[MLP]

Why? Horses need reminders of their job. They need to know how to get themselves out of trouble. Since poling, offsets, swedish oxers, etc., are all illegal at shows, how do you propose to remind them in the confines of the schooling area? The horse isn't abused, he gets a rub, for Pete's sake.

Bute/banamine, in therapeutic doses, do the same as a couple of aspirin for us. He doesn't mean they live on it. But at the end of a competition, they can have a comfortable night and rest day before resuming showing. Or, after a hard school at home. Coupled with a dose of Ulcergard or Gastrogard to protect the stomach, why not?

Swedish oxers are illegal? I have shown and had them in a class, how is that??? All the rest I agree with, what if you get down the line too early you want the horse to be thinking, I gotta get my front end up, not just cantering through it.

[MLP]

That makes more sense. :yes: I certainly do exercises where I establish a rhythm and then get out of the way so my horse can work it out (actually, I do it a fair amount, as I DO want my horse to be able to think for himself when necessary!). "Dropping" to me implies riding up to the last stride asking the horse to let YOU make the decisions and then saying, "Ha! Fooled you! NOW you're on your own!" And while I certainly do that unintentionally sometimes (and generally drop a rail when it happens), I wouldn't do it on purpose. I think it's just semantics. :yes:

You drop the contact on the bridle, you still ride otherwise and rode to the distance.

[hedmbl]

Swedish oxers are illegal? I have shown and had them in a class, how is that??? All the rest I agree with, what if you get down the line too early you want the horse to be thinking, I gotta get my front end up, not just cantering through it.

They are illegal to set/school in the schooling ring.

[MLP]

They are illegal to set/school in the schooling ring.

Ok, I was wondering about that.... I never realized that no one sets them in schooling. I usually ride to the base and drop the horse, it does sharpen them up. I bought an older jumper that would FREAK if you even stood withing 5 feet of the jump, made for a fun time in the warm-up ring when three trainers were standing around. Too much poling for sure.

[eclipse]

They are illegal to set/school in the schooling ring.

But not if there is one in the class (for jumpers in Canada). That is the ONLY time you are allowed to school over one!

[murphyluv]

Ok, I felt like I had to chime in about the bute- I don't think it's neccessarily "evil" BUT, I also think it should not be allowed at upper levels- like someone else said, total care of a top show horse includes many other things to keep them from NOT needing bute.

I groomed for someone who gave 1 gram, 2x/day when showing...even when showing for several weeks. She also pushed very hard, did 2-3 upper level classes a day, probably 5 days a week. Lo and behold, the horse turned up lame when she came off the bute- and had ulcers. She's now under the care of a nutritionist and does not use bute- doesn't need it.
Icing, Game Ready, Back on Track, Thinline pads, massage, etc, in combination with good nutrition and not working the horse to death.. Sure, once they're done showing, give them some bute and rest them. That may be more along the lines of what GM was thinking of?

[lauriep]

No, all of the top riders would like the FEI to allow small amounts of NSAIDS to help the comfort level of the horses. I know of no one that is happy with the zero tolerance rule. That is one thing we do better (or try to) in this country. Now, if they would only establish non-performance enhancing thresholds...

[Big Yellow Taxi]

Umm, yeah, GM is so irrelevant that we just won the GOLD MEDAL in Olympic showjumping.....

Olympics aint what they used to be, especially now that they let professionals in...

[Beau Cheval]

Swedish oxers are illegal? I have shown and had them in a class, how is that???

I think jumping ramped oxers backwards is the oxer that is illegal. And just to clarify GM's words were "to go into the ring off a rub". Not that that really makes much of a difference in the points being made.

[hedmbl]

I think jumping ramped oxers backwards is the oxer that is illegal. And just to clarify GM's words were "to go into the ring off a rub". Not that that really makes much of a difference in the points being made.

That's an offset oxer (illegal as well). Swedish Oxers are also not allowed in the schooling ring...except maybe in the case eclipse pointed out although I've never seen a swedish set here in the U.S. regardless of whether one is included in the course or not.

[Big Yellow Taxi]

I think jumping ramped oxers backwards is the oxer that is illegal.

I sure hope so. I cant even imagine how a horse would jump a vertical backwards. What possible benefit could there be?

[gg4918]

In addition to the "dropping the horse", not only does it let the horse this for itself, but it teaches him not to resent the rider. If the rider doesnt make any adjustments or try to think for the horse and the horse still makes a mistake, the horse wont hold it against anyone but itself. And it makes the horse that much more rideable becuase then they look for a bit of guidance.
Dont know if that came out sounding naive or anything, Im not sure if i phrased it quite correctly. All I know is that it works!!

I've heard the phrase "You do it right and let him make the mistake!" at least 3+ times a lesson! It definitely goes along with the dropping the horse thing.

[Beau Cheval]

I sure hope so. I cant even imagine how a horse would jump a vertical backwards. What possible benefit could there be?

Actually it has it's benefits as a training tool don't have the brainpower to go into it right now. But I believe the reason it is not allowed in the schooling ring is that it would be incredibly confusing and might lead to some serious accidents. When you look at a ramped oxer you EXPECT that it is to be jumped the "right" way, and besides, the schooling ring is NOT the place for such schooling.

[Big Yellow Taxi]

But how does the horse even see the jump if he's going backwards??

[DancingQueen]

That makes more sense. :yes: I certainly do exercises where I establish a rhythm and then get out of the way so my horse can work it out (actually, I do it a fair amount, as I DO want my horse to be able to think for himself when necessary!). "Dropping" to me implies riding up to the last stride asking the horse to let YOU make the decisions and then saying, "Ha! Fooled you! NOW you're on your own!" And while I certainly do that unintentionally sometimes (and generally drop a rail when it happens), I wouldn't do it on purpose. I think it's just semantics. :yes:

Another time when I might "drop" my horse in front of a jump is while if while schooling he drags me to the base, or doesn't listen properly when I'm looking to create a bit more space or a better distance.
Again, the ride merely saying "That's the distance you think is best? Ok then buddy but you are on your own on this one!" will make most horses realize that their idea might not have been very smart and listen better the next time around.

Again, there's a difference between changing your mind in the last minute, which will make him not trust you and saying "ok, have it your way, it will not work out".
Punching through the distance and forcing your horse to have a rail would most likely only be a good idea if your horse was extremely cold (dead in the legs, careless) and super brave (which they tend to be since they don't care much about hitting anything).

I know it happens and I have done it myself as a last resort, but in general I believe that less contact with the rails will keep them sharper in the long run and would not look for unneseccary contact if it can be avoided.
I would not use this tecnique on anything but an old and experienced horse who had already learned to be sloppy.

This kind of horse can often btw be better tricked into staying sharp by keeping the jumping to an absolute minimum. F ex never jumping at home, school over a few x-rails (or not at all, just a long flat session) and then go straight to the ring.
I'm not saying it doesn't work and sometimes the rider needs to jump and school even if the horse doesn't so this could certainly be a last resort alternative, but I have had better luck (on these kinds of horses) with a more unconventional ride.

[DancingQueen]

Jumping head first into a personal story so I split the post to spare those of you who are not interested.

F ex. My younger sisters junior horse was like this. She jumped 3ft, 4ft and 5ft jumps the same, often with one shitrail if she felt too confident.
She would always perform better for a big crowd and she would keep pretty sharp for my (14 year old) sister who wouldn't always hit the perfect spot.

When I showed her I would instead constantly be switching things up. As mentioned, I'd go in the GP without a single warmup jump (only time we were clean over a 5ft course) or f ex throw in a quick trot step in the turn to a skinny vertical or line I knew she wouldn't pay attention to in order to challenge her a bit.
I would sometimes (before she took the ride over completely) let my little sister do the warm up class, (and occationally lil sis would talk me into letting her do the schooling on the mare for the big class also and I would just hop on in the ingate and do my class (there's a new format, trainers schooling for students is not uncommon, how about children schooling up for their trainers, ha ha!).

In the end of the day the mare was brilliant at her job, she could take anyone around a small GP and make them feel like 1,000,000 bucks for leaving the ring with just one rail. It was that very consistant one rail down with a pro that made her the perfect junior/amateur horse!

Continuing the brag a little,
My lil sis showed her at the CSIO in Falsterbo when she was only 14. She did the derby qualifiers and a big portion of the class was going for survival, f ex princess Haya (shame on me for namedropping like that *shaking head*). My lil sis knew she would leave the ring with just one rail (she did in both classes, lol). She made the cut but was asked by her junior chef d'equipe not to ride in the derby but save the horse for the junior european championships (probably wise, it is doubtfull they would have both lived through it, lol).

I was so proud of my sister then, too bad she turned into a complete brat when she got older! *laughing and shaking head at the same time*

[DancingQueen]

I sure hope so. I cant even imagine how a horse would jump a vertical backwards. What possible benefit could there be?

I'm sure you are aware that the ground line could be placed on the landing side of a vertical, thus making it an offset and that this is just an attempt to be, lets quote Tom Cruise here, glib.

[Ruby G. Weber]

FYI Swedish Oxers are not illegal per se. They can be part of a jumper course. They cannot be jumped in the JUMPER schooling area under USEF rules.

One can set a Swedish in the Hunter schooling area. Yeah, I hear ya. Whaat??????

[fair judy]

to clarify, you cannot set a swedish oxer in the schooling area, hunter or jumper. the reason being that if you jump the wrong side ( high side first) it is effectively an offset. there were too many instances when people schooling said....." my horse drifted.......i didn't mean to".

back to the bute issue. inflammation impedes healing and promotes arthritic changes. it is as much a tool to keep horses sound as it is to make a lame horse comfortable.

[CBoylen]

to clarify, you cannot set a swedish oxer in the schooling area, hunter or jumper.
False. You CAN set a swedish oxer in the hunter schooling area. You cannot set a swedish oxer in the pony schooling area or the jumper schooling area.

[fair judy]

Appendix A. Hunter Schooling Rules.
1. No Manual poling allowed.
2. No offsets of any type allowed
3. Swedish oxers are permitted (except Pony Hunters). However, the high side must be no more than 18 inches higher than the low side.
4. Guide rails must not be touching the obstacle being jumped.
5. If one ground line is used it must be on the take-off side.
6. Coolers may be placed on a vertical or front side of an oxer.

i stand corrected. this sounds like a great way to jump a legal offset. :)

[horse-loverz]

But how does the horse even see the jump if he's going backwards??

:rolleyes:

[meupatdoes]

Maybe I'm just nuts, but a lot of my trainers have encouraged me to allow the horse to jump the jump without trying to carry him or do it for him.

One trainer's mantra was "The last three strides belong to the horse."

Another big time hunter trainer said, "Let go in the last stride. Don't try to hold him off the ground. They jump better when you allow THEM to do their jobs." (Three of those lessons are spliced together in the first video in my sig.)

And my current trainer (hollering at me in second sig video) is constantly telling me to quit overriding and let go already.

I guess I'm just still unclear what "dropping to get a rub" is. I make a regular practice (or try to anyway) of allowing the horse to jump as much on his own as possible in order to get the BEST jump out of him. Every jump I ride to I am looking for the earliest moment to let go and coast the rest of the way and here apparently "dropping" the horse is done to deliberately cause a rub.

?

[wyldhorseb]

I probably sound really stupid, but how do you make a horse have a rub on purpose? Like, what do you mean by "dropping" the horse in front of a jump?

[Silk]

I have one that will stop if dropped inf ront of a fence. Granted, he has alwasy had issues, but it seems like something that should not be done by just anyone. ;)

[Beau Cheval]

You can ride a horse to a distance that increases the likelihood they will hit the rails. Many horses will be more careful for the next jumps after they hit a rail, because they feel it.

[leelee]

I probably sound really stupid, but how do you make a horse have a rub on purpose? Like, what do you mean by "dropping" the horse in front of a jump?


Ride the horse to a pretty short distance. Dropping them makes a lot of them go a little more on the forhand. The combination of the two usually makes them have a rub or a rail. Hopefully, when you go in the ring, that rub is still fresh in their mind and they won't have another.

[Big Yellow Taxi]

Like most of what you get from the so-called 'trainers' in the horse game, this is nothing but a con. Big-ass riders flail incoherently around the schooling ring, screaming for attention, only to knock the easiest of fences down. Suddenly, its part of a 'plan'.

"I meant to do that"

"My horse craps better then yours"

"I rode deep to the in and out and posted the wrong lead in a long 6"

[leelee]

Like most of what you get from the so-called 'trainers' in the horse game, this is nothing but a con. Big-ass riders flail incoherently around the schooling ring, screaming for attention, only to knock the easiest of fences down. Suddenly, its part of a 'plan'.

"I meant to do that"

"My horse craps better then yours"

"I rode deep to the in and out and posted the wrong lead in a long 6"


Your're joking, right?

The plan makes perfect sense. If the horse has a good rub, it is less likely to rub the next jump. Sort of why green horses will overjump after having a rub, or even stop because they are still thinking about the rub and are scared.

As for trainers flailing around the schooling ring trying desperately to find a distance... I think you are attending the wrong shows. You also need to keep in mind that this forum is geared toward rated shows, and many here could agree that there is little flailing being done by trainers at decent rated shows.

This is not a difficult concept to wrap your brain around, nor is it very difficult to ride to a short distance.

I think you need to spend more time at a decent show, watching people school and train in the schooling ring.

[findeight]

It's a troll. Don't feed it. Already got banned under another user name. Either the same one or another very similar just disappeared over on Eventing as well.

Some just like to say hateful things, throw accusations around or start a fight under an alter. Enjoy getting others angry and stirred up.

That is all this is.

[feather river]

Why? Horses need reminders of their job. They need to know how to get themselves out of trouble. Since poling, offsets, swedish oxers, etc., are all illegal at shows, how do you propose to remind them in the confines of the schooling area? The horse isn't abused, he gets a rub, for Pete's sake.

Bute/banamine, in therapeutic doses, do the same as a couple of aspirin for us. He doesn't mean they live on it. But at the end of a competition, they can have a comfortable night and rest day before resuming showing. Or, after a hard school at home. Coupled with a dose of Ulcergard or Gastrogard to protect the stomach, why not?


Let me think? you could always buy/own a horse that is actually capable--and of course you better give that Ulcergard if you have him on a regular course of butte so you don't totally ruin his stomach.

Where do you draw the line on animal abuse? Why not show the horse in the division he belongs in? Oh, I see, you paid $75,000 for a $15,000 horse and now you expect your trainer to have it be a competitive 2nd year hunter because you 'want one'. I get it.

[Cedar Bluff Stables]

i was told by an old friend that putting corona on your horses hoofs will make hitting a pole hurt more? Is that true or safe? If so, would't that make them pick up their feet? of course, every horse is different. I've never "driopped" them in frot of a jump before. But i do local huter shows.. so it isn't so bad if we tap a pole.

[hedmbl]

Let me think? you could always buy/own a horse that is actually capable--and of course you better give that Ulcergard if you have him on a regular course of butte so you don't totally ruin his stomach.

Where do you draw the line on animal abuse? Why not show the horse in the division he belongs in? Oh, I see, you paid $75,000 for a $15,000 horse and now you expect your trainer to have it be a competitive 2nd year hunter because you 'want one'. I get it.

:rolleyes:
If you read you'll see that you're taking the Bute comment out of context. It isn't about making a lame horse live on Bute to keep them going but more about an occasional gram or two at a horse show to help alleviate muscle soreness. Same as a human taking an advil after a work out.


i was told by an old friend that putting corona on your horses hoofs will make hitting a pole hurt more? Is that true or safe? If so, would't that make them pick up their feet? of course, every horse is different. I've never "driopped" them in frot of a jump before. But i do local huter shows.. so it isn't so bad if we tap a pole.

I've never heard of corona being used but that would be illegal b/c it's increasing sensitivity. Same as clipping around their coronary band super short then applying something to irritate the skin or spiking their boots. Totally different topic since that's abuse.

[findeight]

That may have come out of a Corona tin but it was not just Corona...that's an old one. Real old. Corona does zip in that regard, just some grease...that can be mixed with something else.

Think about how you ride a gymnastic...you ride to base and leave them alone so they can sort it out on their own-you do not help them. That is the point. They figure it out when the get some rubs and learn how not to get them.

Same thing. And, no, you probably would not see this with a 3' or under Hunter and you should not see it with a level 2 or 3 jumper either. It is sort of for the big sticks.

[Cedar Bluff Stables]

yeah i think the girl heard it from an old trainer (very old fashioned) i've never done it, just thought it was interesting

[CBoylen]

Let me think? you could always buy/own a horse that is actually capable--and of course you better give that Ulcergard if you have him on a regular course of butte so you don't totally ruin his stomach.
Where do you draw the line on animal abuse? Why not show the horse in the division he belongs in? Oh, I see, you paid $75,000 for a $15,000 horse and now you expect your trainer to have it be a competitive 2nd year hunter because you 'want one'. I get it.

Oh please. Regardless of their capability, all horses need a good rub or a reminder now and then of some kind, whatever form that may take, to keep them at their best and sharpest. Even moreso if they have more scope than their division requires and thus the height of the jump does not command their respect. Unless of course their rider is accidentally instilling that respect with repeated inaccuracy.

[feather river]

Oh please. Regardless of their capability, all horses need a good rub or a reminder now and then of some kind, whatever form that may take, to keep them at their best and sharpest. Even moreso if they have more scope than their division requires and thus the height of the jump does not command their respect. Unless of course their rider is accidentally instilling that respect with repeated inaccuracy.

Whoa, bubba. "all horses" need a good rub or reminder now and then of some kind, "whatever form that may take"? Buy a nice horse that respects the fences, employ a training program that allows the horse to learn to judge the jumps-one that doesn't use punishment, and, maybe even get yourself an 'eye' for distance at the same time.

And while you are at it, get off all the drugs and meds-just because you see all of them advertised on TV doesn't mean they are good for you. So don't just assume that because your trainer likes to 'stick' your horses with just a bit of 'this and that' that it is o.k.

Attitudes like this are why we do not produce the best horses, and think that some level of doping is acceptable.

[findeight]

Oh please... Unless of course their rider is accidentally instilling that respect with repeated inaccuracy.

:lol::lol::lol::D;)

Spoken like one who actually jumps where that may be something to think about and knows what they are talking about. Unlike certain pot stirrers on here...or pretenders.

Alas, I don't jump that high...for which most horses are thankful.

[feather river]

:rolleyes:
If you read you'll see that you're taking the Bute comment out of context. It isn't about making a lame horse live on Bute to keep them going but more about an occasional gram or two at a horse show to help alleviate muscle soreness. Same as a human taking an advil after a work out.

I read. A little bute [1 gram or less] for an old campaigner the last day or two of the show is not what this original comment was about. How about not showing the poor guy in 3 divisions a day for 4 days. How about doing just one class a day for 3 days. And if you need an advil after a work out, you need to re-think the level of your work-outs. Don't just be popping those pills because you think it is o.k.

[feather river]

:lol::lol::lol::D;)

Spoken like one who actually jumps where that may be something to think about and knows what they are talking about. Unlike certain pot stirrers on here...or pretenders.

Alas, I don't jump that high...for which most horses are thankful.

More likely spoken like one who is actually jumping their horse just a level above where its talent lies. Just because your 'trainer' bought you that horse with all the money you had does not mean it is a GP horse. If you've got to rub it to keep it honest for 17 jumps, then you've got the wrong horse. Buy one next time that is capable and has a respect for the horse. Then get a trainer who can ride that level of talent. [another point of view]

[Silk]

More likely spoken like one who is actually jumping their horse just a level above where its talent lies. Just because your 'trainer' bought you that horse with all the money you had does not mean it is a GP horse. If you've got to rub it to keep it honest for 17 jumps, then you've got the wrong horse. Buy one next time that is capable and has a respect for the horse. Then get a trainer who can ride that level of talent. [another point of view]

Yeah...must be that CBoylen needs a better horse and a better trainer. Chanda...give him to me (eeerrr....both the horse and the man) and find yourself better! If I could find the rolley eyes, I would insert them here.

[hedmbl]

Yeah...must be that CBoylen needs a better horse and a better trainer. Chanda...give him to me (eeerrr....both the horse and the man) and find yourself better! If I could find the rolley eyes, I would insert them here.

:yes: I'll do it for you :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[kellyb]

More likely spoken like one who is actually jumping their horse just a level above where its talent lies. Just because your 'trainer' bought you that horse with all the money you had does not mean it is a GP horse. If you've got to rub it to keep it honest for 17 jumps, then you've got the wrong horse. Buy one next time that is capable and has a respect for the horse. Then get a trainer who can ride that level of talent. [another point of view]

:lol: Do you even know who CBoylen IS?

[TheOrangeOne]

Feather, did you spend 800k on your horse that needs no meds, lunging, pro schooling, or tune ups, or do you just not show at all?

[CBoylen]

feather river, you seem to have some issues that I'm not going to address.
All I have to say is that I don't know where you would find your mythical "nice horse", because watching any schooling area, anywhere, whether it be for the 3'6" hunters or the olympic trials, you're not going to see anyone going into the ring without at least trying to get a good rub first.

[lauriep]

Gee, feather, that must mean that Rodney, Conrad, Joe, Michael, Katie, Leslie, Melanie, Dennis, George, Robert, Beezie, McLain, Laura, Lauren, Anne...don't know when a good horse needs a reminder, how to PICK a good horse and how to maintain one. Time to step away from the keyboard when posting about something you clearly know squat about.

[findeight]

Does Feather know what 4' Hunter CBoylens family has had a "trainer" resort to rubs because it was "overfaced"? More then one as well although just that particular one is so well known. Certainly have not seen any overfacing on any of hers in the warm up ring or on the course...and I know who she is and who the horses are. Unlike some.

Know who all the others are and watch them as well, getting a rub on a top level horse as a reminder and warm up...but not everybody is doing the level where it would help and they may think whatever they do accomplish means it is the same all the way up and reminders are not necessary.

Whatever...more fun and less demanding to sit back and take potshots then go out and get it done.

[Big Yellow Taxi]

Gee, feather, that must mean that Rodney, Conrad, Joe, Michael, Katie, Leslie, Melanie, Dennis, George, Robert, Beezie, McLain, Laura, Lauren, Anne...don't know when a good horse needs a reminder, how to PICK a good horse and how to maintain one. Time to step away from the keyboard when posting about something you clearly know squat about.

Wow that must be a record for most names dropped in a single post. Are you sure you didnt forget anyone? Or those are just the ones you know on a first name basis? What about Lloyd and Harry?

[fair judy]

feather...................BRAIN :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol:

[MHM]

LaurieP, don't forget that Rodney and Michael were so untalented with jumpers they washed out of horse shows and ended up at the race track. And their horsemanship certainly hasn't gotten them very far as trainers there. They'll probably be working at the car wash any day now. :lol:

[SlamDunk]

More likely spoken like one who is actually jumping their horse just a level above where its talent lies. Just because your 'trainer' bought you that horse with all the money you had does not mean it is a GP horse. If you've got to rub it to keep it honest for 17 jumps, then you've got the wrong horse. Buy one next time that is capable and has a respect for the horse. Then get a trainer who can ride that level of talent. [another point of view]

This whole thread is ridiculous. Every clinician/instuctor I have ever taken with has some in some way to soften before the jump. As many have said soften at a deep distance while holding your body and keeping your leg on to allow them to learn to jump on their own, and maybe get a rub before going in the ring on a less careful horse, is not the same as galloping down to a crappy distance and then throwing the reins up the neck and doing nothing.

And Feather River you know what, getting a rub before you go in the ring is not indictive of not enough scope, or bad training. Lifting the horses front end off the ground is actually worse...and that is how you ride a maxed out horse around a course, not by getting a rub at a tall vertical before you go in the ring.

I remember some clinician yelling at someone who was protecting their horse before every jump, " Stop riding like your horse is a bad jumper"

Honestly this whole thread is a little ridiculous, people are acting like getting a rub before you go in the ring is akin to poling, sensitizing the legs etc. There are way worse things to worry about at horse shows then having someone get a rub before they go in the ring!

[Silk]

:yes: I'll do it for you :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Much obliged:) Thank you!

[Alterrain]

feather river = big yellow taxi.

[Big Yellow Taxi]

Swing and a miss