Levade, capriole, courbette, etc, in the Dressage ring?

[sublimequine]

Just saying right off the bat, I'm not a Dressage rider, but have an idea about the discipline as I used to ride it. So while I'm familiar with the terms and ideas, that's about as far as it goes. :lol:

I was watching some videos of the SRS horses on youtube, and performing their levades, caprioles, etc. And I was wondering, why aren't these employed in 'modern day' Dressage, like in the Olympic rings, at the top levels of the sport? Obviously I understand why they aren't seen in the lower levels, but if you're riding the very top of the discipline, and you are the pinnicle of Dressage talent, how come these maneuvers aren't seen? :confused:

Also, another question. Are these maneuvers even "recognized" by the organization that creates the tests and such (don't know the name.. is it like USEF or something? :lol: )? Like if you were an Olympic rider, and decided in your freestyle to do a levade, would they "count" it, or would that be like doing a sliding stop in the Dressage ring? :o

One more question, only one, I promise! :lol: I've always heard the absolute high point of collection is the levade. ie, if you progress from trot, to collected trot, to piaffe, then finally to levade. So say you took an Olympic horse, at the very top levels, had a SRS rider get on, would the horse be able to perform a levade once it understood what was being asked? If the horse was truly trained well and taught to be light and collect, it should be able to levade perfectly, right? Even if never asked before, once it understands mentally, physically the animal should be able to do it with ease? :confused:

Oh, and feel free to answer whichever questions you prefer, that's fine if you don't answer them all, I know I asked a lot. I'm curious about this, and never really thought about it until now. I think it would be really cool if I could see these manuevers in freestyles and stuff! :)

[TouchstoneAcres]

This is too juicy to ignore. If the airs were required at GP, I think we'd see 99% Lipizzans and only 1% WBs in the ring instead of the other way around.

[sublimequine]

This is too juicy to ignore. If the airs were required at GP, I think we'd see 99% Lipizzans and only 1% WBs in the ring instead of the other way around.

Can Warmbloods not do these things or something? Lipizzans are pretty bulky and dense horses themselves.. :confused:

That's what they were called, "airs above the ground", couldn't remember the phrase, thank you. :lol:

[canticle]

Modern competitive dressage stops at Grand Prix. Is this really the pinnacle? I guess it depends on your definition of dressage. :)

For a correctly trained horse, levade is the natural next step up from piaffe. Since you should be schooling a level higher than you are showing, I believe that GP riders could use the levade as a test at home to see if their piaffe is correct. I think many of the problems we see in the GPs today are because riders are not schooling the next level up. They are effectively maxed out, and it shows.

[kdow]

I would be rather surprised if a SRS rider could hop on a horse which hadn't been specifically conditioned for the airs and get anything good out of it- not necessarily due to the horse not understanding, but simply down to muscle development. It takes time for a horse to progress from a trot to a collected trot, and from there to piaffe, and part of that time is simply getting the horse physically fit.

Also, these days, you'd have to be pretty careful which Olympic level horse you picked- some of them really do not do the piaffe in the way which develops the muscles which would lead to being able to do the levade.

[Aven]

My understanding is that when training the lippizaners the trainers would see which air(s) about the ground the horse had talent for. None of the stallions did all the airs, only one or two.

So to try to make it a prerequisite would be very difficult. Unless it was say 'X halt.. air of you choice'. I am sure many warmbloods could do airs above the ground, but it would further reduce the number of horses it would take to go to the top even by asking for anything more than a levade. I don't think there was a single horse who could do all the airs...someone will correct me if I am wrong :)

[sublimequine]

Modern competitive dressage stops at Grand Prix. Is this really the pinnacle? I guess it depends on your definition of dressage. :)

For a correctly trained horse, levade is the natural next step up from piaffe. Since you should be schooling a level higher than you are showing, I believe that GP riders could use the levade as a test at home to see if their piaffe is correct. I think many of the problems we see in the GPs today are because riders are not schooling the next level up. They are effectively maxed out, and it shows.

My definition is coming from very limited knowledge, that's why I'm asking folks who know the sport better than I do. :lol:

I think you are right though, I have never seen a Grand Prix (that's what GP stands for, correct?) rider do any of these airs above the ground. Come to think of it I've never seen any horse but the SRS Lipizanners perform them. :confused: It's obviously not a great resource, but go onto youtube and search these moves. It's 99% the SRS, 1% some random teenage girl with a rearing horse calling it a levade. :lol:

[sublimequine]

I would be rather surprised if a SRS rider could hop on a horse which hadn't been specifically conditioned for the airs and get anything good out of it- not necessarily due to the horse not understanding, but simply down to muscle development. It takes time for a horse to progress from a trot to a collected trot, and from there to piaffe, and part of that time is simply getting the horse physically fit.

Also, these days, you'd have to be pretty careful which Olympic level horse you picked- some of them really do not do the piaffe in the way which develops the muscles which would lead to being able to do the levade.

Say you took a GP horse that was trained correctly, and did a 'perfect', correct, true piaffe wonderfully. In theory, the same muscles would be used to perform the levade that were used to piaffe, correct? So physically the horse would be able to perform it, if it could already perform a true, correct piaffe.

[sublimequine]

My understanding is that when training the lippizaners the trainers would see which air(s) about the ground the horse had talent for. None of the stallions did all the airs, only one or two.

So to try to make it a prerequisite would be very difficult. Unless it was say 'X halt.. air of you choice'. I am sure many warmbloods could do airs above the ground, but it would further reduce the number of horses it would take to go to the top even by asking for anything more than a levade. I don't think there was a single horse who could do all the airs...someone will correct me if I am wrong :)

Now this I didn't know. I always assumed the Lipizanners could all perform all the airs, not one or two select ones. Thanks for the info! :)

[His Greyness]

I have seen all these movements during an FEI CCI**** test but they were performed impromptu by the horse impatient to be out on cross country. :lol:

[kdow]

Say you took a GP horse that was trained correctly, and did a 'perfect', correct, true piaffe wonderfully. In theory, the same muscles would be used to perform the levade that were used to piaffe, correct? So physically the horse would be able to perform it, if it could already perform a true, correct piaffe.

I am not an expert by any means, but I would still think it'd depend on how fit that particular horse was for the challenge- if he'd been doing piaffe as part of his regular training program at home (instead of as something to be tuned up and shown mainly at competition) then possibly- but remember that even SRS horses don't start doing the airs with a rider.

What you could possibly see is that a horse properly trained for piaffe, for whom piaffe is a regular thing, would be able to produce a reasonable effort at a levade on long reins (i.e. no rider.) (And that's how it'd be started anyway, based on what I've been old by classical-minded folks- airs are ALWAYS started from the ground, not under saddle, simply due to the amount of physical effort it requires from the horse to lift himself, never mind adding a weight up there which can shift around.)

[kdow]

Can Warmbloods not do these things or something? Lipizzans are pretty bulky and dense horses themselves.. :confused:

That's what they were called, "airs above the ground", couldn't remember the phrase, thank you. :lol:

Warmbloods, particularly these days, tend to be fairly large, relatively heavy critters. By comparison, Lipizzans are smaller, and as a result of that, lighter, but still well-muscled. Simple physics says that it takes more work (on the part of the horse) to lift a larger mass, so it should be harder for a typical warmblood to do any given movement than an equally trained Lipizzan.

[Cindyg]

This is an excellent topic for discussion.

Don't forget that the Andalusians can do the airs above the ground too. :)

[kdow]

This is an excellent topic for discussion.

Don't forget that the Andalusians can do the airs above the ground too. :)

For the purposes of warmblood vs ?, I class Andalusians in with the Lippizans. They have the same general build and body type in terms of average height and musculature. :)

[sublimequine]

Warmbloods, particularly these days, tend to be fairly large, relatively heavy critters. By comparison, Lipizzans are smaller, and as a result of that, lighter, but still well-muscled. Simple physics says that it takes more work (on the part of the horse) to lift a larger mass, so it should be harder for a typical warmblood to do any given movement than an equally trained Lipizzan.

I didn't realize Lipizzans were that much smaller than warmbloods, as they do seem like very compact, dense horses (with those big thick necks! :lol: ). But you're right, the few big ol' 18 hander warmbloods I've been around, I could see them struggling to do airs above the ground.

Nin; That's another question, can any breed perform ANY of the airs above the ground? Perhaps not all of them, but one of them? Or do you specifically need a Dressage-y (for lack of a better term) horse? They always say Dressage is all about training, and that any breed can do it. But at that level, can you take say an Arab or a TB and bust out a courbette, if trained and conditioned properly? :lol:

[MyCatRules]

I think many of the Baroque breeds have an easier time with the airs - Lippizans, Andalusians, Freisians, and Knabstruppers are all able to do the high school movements. Some Warmbloods can also do them with training - but it seems to come easier to the Baroque horses. Just as extensions seem to come easier to the Warmbloods.

[sublimequine]

I think many of the Baroque breeds have an easier time with the airs - Lippizans, Andalusians, Freisians, and Knabstruppers are all able to do the high school movements. Some Warmbloods can also do them with training - but it seems to come easier to the Baroque horses. Just as extensions seem to come easier to the Warmbloods.

Now why is it that a Friesian would have an easier time with the airs than a Warmblood? They're usually around the same weight, I believe. :confused:

[MelantheLLC]

The Cadre Noir do several airs, croupade, capriole, terre a terre and courbette. Not sure if they do levade.

Their horses that do the airs are Selle Francais and Lusitanos according to wikipedia. They are certainly lighter, larger horses than the Lipps.

Plus they do that lovely thing where they jump over a table of officers drinking wine. :winkgrin:

http://jumpcut.com/view/?id=DD5EE702D26611DB9692000423CF4092

[sublimequine]

The Cadre Noir do several airs, croupade, capriole, terre a terre and courbette. Not sure if they do levade.

Their horses that do the airs are Selle Francais and Lusitanos according to wikipedia. They are certainly lighter, larger horses than the Lipps.

Plus they do that lovely thing where they jump over a table of officers drinking wine. :winkgrin:

http://jumpcut.com/view/?id=DD5EE702D26611DB9692000423CF4092

I've seen those horses before, good point! I totally forgot about them. :)

[MelantheLLC]

The officers are drinking wine. Not the horses.

Thought perhaps I should clarify.

[slc2]

The classical jumps should never be in competition and no decent classical master would EVER suggest such a thing. Some things should never be a part of competition.

And no, actually, Lipizanners are not the only horses that can do school jumps, just look at the Warmbloods that do school jumps in the Cadre Noir for proof of that. That only Lipizanners could do school jumps is just another one of those things people repeat until they believe it.

The point is, that these things are a gift only a few horses want to do, and have an interest and tendency to do, and only those horses should be doing them. If there was a competition, too many people would force their horses to do these things.

Leaving them OUT of competition was the wisest thing any of the great classical trainers ever did.

And oh - those early dressage tests first done at the Olympics were at about second level, and most early test designers didn't even want passage and piaffe in the tests!

[canticle]

The point is, that these things are a gift only a few horses want to do, and have an interest and tendency to do, and only those horses should be doing them. If there was a competition, too many people would force their horses to do these things.
Couldn't one say the same thing about GP dressage? That only a few horses have the gift to compete at that level? Or are you suddenly one of those people who thinks that any horse can do GP? :lol: At any rate, it is well-established that you should be schooling one level above what you are currently showing. This implies that all GP riders should be schooling levade, since it is the natural progression from piaffe. I'm not talking about courbette or capriole, which are highly specialized movements. If the horse is not capable of levade (either due to poor training or physical limitations), then how in good conscience can you compete at the GP level?

The decision to end the recognized levels at GP was an arbitrary one. If 4th level had been chosen as the stop point, then I'm sure people would be saying how dangerous the current FEI movements are.

[canticle]

And no, actually, Lipizanners are not the only horses that can do school jumps, just look at the Warmbloods that do school jumps in the Cadre Noir for proof of that. That only Lipizanners could do school jumps is just another one of those things people repeat until they believe it.
You are correct, there is no inherent reason why a QH or a WB would not be able to perform the airs. But certain types of horses have been purpose-bred for that level of training, and it can make things easier if you set yourself up with all of the advantages. ;)

[TheOrangeOne]

Hunter Princess chiming in: in the video, linked earlier, the horse is doing a levade. What makes it different from a plain rear in that circumstance? I thought it was flexion of the hocks which that horse does not seem to be doing any of. Similarly, there was zero suspension in the circle-y piaffe. I don't profess to be able to do most of this on purpose. :lol: My horse failed out of dressage school somewhere around second/third level, so I have some buttons and can do some tempi changes when the two of us are so inclined, but I really know very little about competition dressage.

[MelantheLLC]

That was actually the courbette.

Here's a better page:

http://www.cadrenoir.fr/en_Courbette

OE: There's actually a movement in which the horse rears and hops forward on its hind legs but I can't remember the name of it.

[Tonja]

Every healthy horse can perform ALL of the dressage movements correctly (including the airs above the ground) from the day they are born.

Competition dressage went a much different rout than classical dressage. Competition horses today are generally not ridden or trained with the degree of calmness, balance and engagement required for the levade, or even basic classical work.

[Beasmom]

I agree that any horse can perform the "airs" -- all of them -- at play, and they often do. The movements of the playing horse were the basis of Haute Ecole. My Arab could levade -- and once did so under saddle. My warmblood mare is capable of spectacular Haute Ecole movements at play. She can perform perfect caprioles, ballotades, croupades, courbettes, and a super-lofty passage.

Not when I WANT her to, of course, just when SHE wants to!

I think there are many GP horses who could perform an "air" or two. But outside of the Cadre Noir, the SRS, and a very few other schools or individuals, who knows how to teach them?

[TheOrangeOne]

http://www.cadrenoir.fr/images/sources/044.jpg

OK now that we have really established I have no clue what I am talking about, can someone explain that to me?

[Eireamon]

I have just started having training for advanced longreining techniques with my 3 yr old Welsh Cob Colt. I want to be able to teach him from the ground before I start riding him.

Our first lesson was Friday. He can already do shoulder in and some leg yeild and we were perfecting this when a rider came up the road riding one horse and leading another.
My horse erupted into a spontaneous Levade.

The Classical Trainer laughed and said "My work here is done"

I am obviously not wanting to to teach airs above the ground but its clear he can already do them himself.

Now back to Piaffe and Passage :)

[slc2]

Jumping around in the pasture has nothing to do with school jumps. It's a very, very bad idea to assume since a horse bucks and runs around in the pasture that it can do this stuff. That's ANOTHER reason why it's not in tests, because too many people would assume 'oh sure, my horse can do that!' And if they DON'T assume it, someone will be at hand to tell them so!

It's another classical air. The horse has gotten somewhat out of position in the pillars, but he's still kicking up just as asked.

There are even those in the Spanish Riding School that say the pillars are very hard on the horses and that they are used today mostly for ceremonial purposes only. It's rare to see them do anything in the pillars except piaffe or levade for that reason.

I love how canticle starts talking about purpose bred horses so eruditely, LOL. For years we have listened to her say there's no such thing. Now all of a sudden there is. LOL.

As far as Thoroughbreds and Quarter horses being used to do school jumps, I think that's about the worst idea I've ever heard, it would take a very non-typical animal of either breed to do this work.

There are two breeds that the usual conformation and balance are simply not appropriate, and that's EXACTLY why the school jumps were so wisely left out of competition tests, because people will immediately assume, 'Well MY horse can do it too!'

Thoroughbreds commonly have straighter hocks for racing and Quarter horses very often have a downhill build and sickle hocks - to say nothing of the tiny cannons, small joints (so smaller articulating surface) and miniscule hooves holding up a forehand heavy body, so desirable in Quarter Horses these days. One of the worst tendencies of these two breeds is the very fine bones and small joints and feet that so desirable - post a pic of a bigger boned Thb or QH, especially without the huge high hip, massive low forehand, tiny legs and feet and 'baby doll head', and you'll be told he's a 'puke'.

Podhajsky even visited an Andalusian breeder in Spain (not recently, obviously) and declared it a very sad shame that the horses all had insufficient bone for the work - even way back then, and they're certainly often lighter boned now. But he ALSO complained that every year, he had very few horses to select from the Lipizanner breeding farm that were appropriate. He was very selective, and other people should be too.

There are very few breeds that routinely produce high school horses, and very few individuals even in the breeds used, that can do this stuff.

School jumps would be a disaster for such horses, and there is just the level of collection and impulsion required that such conformations simply can't handle - simply not every horse can do that level of collection, just as very few Thoroughbreds and Quarter horses can be found in the national ranking of Grand Prix dressage horses scoring the top scores, and just as sadly, we have people assuming their horse should do school jumps - no WONDER the original test writers left the school jumps out of the tests. The thought of how wrong that would immediately go must have been very prominently in mind.

School jumpers actually can be either taller horses like the ones used at Saumur, OR shorter ones like Lipizanners (though actually, the type at the SRS is more and more going to a leggier squarer type). The common denominator is balance in the conformation, and joint and bone that gives greater longevity and power - the ability to develop a lot of collection (and stay sound for many years of training!), and wanting to do it.

One of the other reasons for keeping the school jumps out of competition is that competition involves a lot of repetition, especially today, the schedule is really alot of miles and a lot of shows. That is another reason these belong in exhibitions only.

Keeping the tests as easy as possible is kinder to the horses. Any judge worth his or her salt can tell a heck of a lot about a horses training watching him do very basic things - and with the advanced work the Grand Prix test is not only hard enough, it's sufficient in and of itself, without adding anything else.

Lipizanners that do school jumps do not do them jump after jump or day after day as drills, behind the exhibitions is one of the best conditioning programs in the world, with just enough repetition to keep the animals fit and healthy and no more, and in any case, the jumps come out of collection, so that dressage work, including piaffe and passage keep the animals fit for the school jumps and endless repetition is not required.

The school horses are also retired from the jump work at the right time, and drop down to easier work such as quadrille and teaching students. In an environment where things are centrally controlled and it's not about competition success, youngsters are coming along and the advanced horses are much more reliably retired when they should be, and pensioned, not kept in work til lthey can barely move. You can't count in that with advanced horses in their teens and twenties being kept in work by riders who don't have another one coming along, or need to sell for a profit to get the next horse.

One of the other reasons for keeping the jumps out of competition is that they are extremely dangerous. A bystander could have his head taken off if he's in the wrong position. These are definitely not something one wants to see going on at public training and boarding stables where people and horses are out of control all over the place. These things need to be done in a controlled environment.

and of course the other reason is that very few people will ever get how to do this work properly, out of collection and impulsion - even fewer people will learn how to do the work properly and WANT to do it correctly rather than just slap it together and impress people.

One can go to any number of dinner theatres and exhibitions and see these jumps done incorrectly. VERY incorrectly. They really look like a mess and are an embarrassment. The horse's legs are all over the place and collection is nonexistent or at a very low level. Such work is worthless compared to the correct stuff.

The story goes that one day a young student was cleaning stalls at the Spanish Riding School.

He was cleaning some of the new stallion's stalls and two of the senior riders were standing nearby chatting about the new horses.

Suddenly the kid goes sailing across the aisle, several feet off the ground, and slams into the wall, crumpling to the floor.

'Which stallion was that', says one of the riders, 'he's going to make a great caprioler!'

[sublimequine]

Thanks for all the input folks keep it comin! :)

So it sounds like it might come down to the difference between classical dressage and competitive dressage. Are they really two totally different animals? Or do they really only shoot off in different directions when the airs are concerned?

Take a competing warmblood's piaffe and a SRS Lip stud's piaffe, and if the warmblood's doing it truly and correctly, I don't see a huge difference. Is it only the classical horses then, that are expected to move onto levade, after a true, correct piaffe can be performed? :confused:

[Tonja]

Slc2 wrote:
Jumping around in the pasture has nothing to do with school jumps. It's a very, very bad idea to assume since a horse bucks and runs around in the pasture that it can do this stuff.
Jumping around in pasture has everything to do with school jumps. It is the horse’s natural expression of exuberance in freedom that is the underlying inspiration behind the classical riding art.

While all horses can perform the classical airs, I agree that not all horses should be encouraged to perform them. Very few horses have conformation sufficient to practice highly collected movements regularly and stay sound.

sublimequine wrote:
Is it only the classical horses then, that are expected to move onto levade, after a true, correct piaffe can be performed?
A classically trained warmblood could perform a levade.

So it sounds like it might come down to the difference between classical dressage and competitive dressage. Are they really two totally different animals? Or do they really only shoot off in different directions when the airs are concerned?
Competition dressage and classical dressage are two very different pursuits.

Classical dressage is nature based training that is founded on the horse’s natural movement and expression. Its primary goal is to improve each horse’s understanding and balance to the best of its individual capabilities. Great care is taken to elicit the horse’s willing participation and promote its long-term well being. Horses that are strong enough can go on to the extremely collected movements and airs above the ground, such as the levade. While the levade looks impressive, it’s getting the basic work just right that is the challenge. Once the basic work is right, the levade is automatically there.

Competition dressage has a style of its own. The emphasis in competition dressage seems to be more on producing the “WOW! Factor”. The “WOW! Factor” is produced by and large with methods that work against the horse’s nature/balance and for this reason competition work does not generally demonstrate the refined calmness, balance, engagement or natural movement of classical work.

If you study the work of classical riders like Meixner, Lindenbauer, Handler, Watjen, Neindorff, Herbermann and then study the work of the Olympic competition riders, you will begin to see that there are considerable differences. These differences came about because the two schools work toward very different ends.

[Sandy M]

The Cadre Noir do several airs, croupade, capriole, terre a terre and courbette. Not sure if they do levade.

Their horses that do the airs are Selle Francais and Lusitanos according to wikipedia. They are certainly lighter, larger horses than the Lipps.

Plus they do that lovely thing where they jump over a table of officers drinking wine. :winkgrin:

http://jumpcut.com/view/?id=DD5EE702D26611DB9692000423CF4092

Paul Belasik's book shows him doing Levade and Pesade with a couple of horses, one a TB and the other, I think, a WB of some kind.

The picture here is from Dressage for (in?) the 20th Century, and my recollection is that the horse pictured is a TB:

http://www.equibooks.com/belasik.html

[pintopiaffe]

Don't confuse Levade with Pesade. Some horses, *usually* more baroque in type, will offer pesade. Levade has a much deeper angle of hind joints, and is lower to the ground = much more difficult.

Horses with a baroque build are more suited to the Airs generally. Of course, there are exceptions. But they are dense in the body, and their angles make Airs easier. "Modern" Wb's get further and further away from this--of course what is being sought/rewarded in competition is quite different. Not better or worse, just different.

I am quite blessed that the GP movements are NOT the pinnacle of training where I ride. High School is. We have four (? might be three now) Airs horses. And yes, their talents vary. We do have currently a capriole horse. http://www.sonsofthewindfarm.com/img08/pfestival006.jpg http://www.sonsofthewindfarm.com/img08/pfestival028.jpg We have a couple who Levade. My own stallion, being quite far from Iberian--but quite baroque in type and movement-- has a talent for Levade, showing a very low, controlled Pesade several times during great emotion. This is NOT a rear... almost the opposite as it is soooo collected. We are obviously not training it yet, but it will most likely be in his repertoire before we are done.

THE absolute MOST impressive thing I ever saw though was one young stallion *playing* in a lesson. My teacher was on the ground, using a bamboo in-hand whip and there is no other word for it, *playing* with the horse. Coaxing him to come to the stick... The young horse, who had never before been asked for either Spanish Walk or Passage, was coaxed into several steps of passage through this play. It was completely joyful and spontaneous (on the horse's part--obviously quite thought out on the teacher's part, and well ridden on the rider's part!) and made such a huge impression on me. The horse obviously has talent for the movement--there was some decent sit and elevation behind, it wasn't just flailing the front legs about.

Piaffe is not (only) a goal, it is a tool. We use piaffe to strengthen the horse, to develop sit and throughness. "Ab" training. ;) Sometimes, even, to warm up!

[sublimequine]

So one of my questions still remains. If a GP rider did an air above the ground, any of them, in a freestyle test, would that "count"? I've never seen any of the airs performed in a competitive dressage context, ever. Are they NEVER seen in competitive dressage, only classical? :confused:

[pintopiaffe]

Good question. You don't see Spanish Walk in Freestyles, so I'm guessing you aren't allowed anything "outside" or "above" the prescribed movements.... Many horses are taught passage via SW, so it's something more than a few GP horses would know... and it's sure a crowd pleaser... but no one 'throws it in there,' even as a non-judged movement... (I'd personally love to *exit* after the final halt in SW, ya know?)

Come to think of it, you get eliminated for doing anything 'above level' i.e. you're not allowed to do half-pass in a First Level Freestyle, not allowed to do sequences of changes that are 'above' the level you're in, etc. So... an Air would *sort of* be 'above' GP, would it not? (pun fully acknowledged, not intended...)

[canticle]

As far as Thoroughbreds and Quarter horses being used to do school jumps, I think that's about the worst idea I've ever heard, it would take a very non-typical animal of either breed to do this work.

There are two breeds that the usual conformation and balance are simply not appropriate, and that's EXACTLY why the school jumps were so wisely left out of competition tests, because people will immediately assume, 'Well MY horse can do it too!'

Thoroughbreds commonly have straighter hocks for racing and Quarter horses very often have a downhill build and sickle hocks - to say nothing of the tiny cannons, small joints (so smaller articulating surface) and miniscule hooves holding up a forehand heavy body, so desirable in Quarter Horses these days. One of the worst tendencies of these two breeds is the very fine bones and small joints and feet that so desirable - post a pic of a bigger boned Thb or QH, especially without the huge high hip, massive low forehand, tiny legs and feet and 'baby doll head', and you'll be told he's a 'puke'.
You think that TBs and QHs are unsuitable, yet you conveniently ignore your mostly-TB WBs which are equally (if not more so) inappropriate. If you want to argue that horses are purpose-bred for certain disciplines, then you need to accept that your horses may not be perfect for the very highest levels.
The story goes that one day a young student was cleaning stalls at the Spanish Riding School.

He was cleaning some of the new stallion's stalls and two of the senior riders were standing nearby chatting about the new horses.

Suddenly the kid goes sailing across the aisle, several feet off the ground, and slams into the wall, crumpling to the floor.

'Which stallion was that', says one of the riders, 'he's going to make a great caprioler!'
I've never heard that story. Did you just make it up? :rolleyes:

[sublimequine]

Good question. You don't see Spanish Walk in Freestyles, so I'm guessing you aren't allowed anything "outside" or "above" the prescribed movements.... Many horses are taught passage via SW, so it's something more than a few GP horses would know... and it's sure a crowd pleaser... but no one 'throws it in there,' even as a non-judged movement... (I'd personally love to *exit* after the final halt in SW, ya know?)

Come to think of it, you get eliminated for doing anything 'above level' i.e. you're not allowed to do half-pass in a First Level Freestyle, not allowed to do sequences of changes that are 'above' the level you're in, etc. So... an Air would *sort of* be 'above' GP, would it not? (pun fully acknowledged, not intended...)

Oh really, you get penalized for doing stuff above your level? That I didn't know either! :eek:

So maybe you're right, that a rider would actually get penalized for employing say a levade or something in a GP freestyle test. That seems kinda sad. :(

slc2; This is off-topic, but you're speaking of ONE SMALL facet of the QH world there, halter. Nobody wants a ranch QH, a gaming QH, a racing QH, a cutting QH, with tiny stick legs and 00 feet, and the 'babydoll face' is irrelevent in all these contexts. One of the reasons I'm no longer in Dressage is because I'm into stock horses now, so they're kinda my specialty. :lol:

[pintopiaffe]

TheOrangeOne... I might be way off, but I think it is a horse being trained for Capriole. Capriole has three parts--the pesade, the jump up, then the kick out. Some horses automatically do the jump-and-kick (or at least 'offer' it) and these would NOT be the courbetteurs (sp? sorry...--the courbette-ers :p )

That *looks* to my NOT trained eye to be a horse coming down from the kick-out phase of the Capriole. They do land fronts first, as if coming down from over a jump. I can't remember if when it is fully trained they must land on all four evenly or not. One of the jumps that is the finishing touch, but I'm not sure which.

Pillars are still used. It's hard to explain, but they are much more psychological than actual restraint. They are a pretty amazing tool. I have ridden a (trained!) horse up into the pillars--sans cavesson or side reins or 'cross ties' dropped reins, and piaffed. It's way cool. :yes:

[Ambrey]

slc2; This is off-topic, but you're speaking of ONE SMALL facet of the QH world there, halter. Nobody wants a ranch QH, a gaming QH, a racing QH, a cutting QH, with tiny stick legs and 00 feet, and the 'babydoll face' is irrelevent in all these contexts. One of the reasons I'm no longer in Dressage is because I'm into stock horses now, so they're kinda my specialty. :lol:

Even halter horses are moving away from the 00 feet aren't they? At least now that HYPP is going out of style they won't be dropping dead randomly ;)

[Ambrey]

Warmbloods, particularly these days, tend to be fairly large, relatively heavy critters. By comparison, Lipizzans are smaller, and as a result of that, lighter, but still well-muscled. Simple physics says that it takes more work (on the part of the horse) to lift a larger mass, so it should be harder for a typical warmblood to do any given movement than an equally trained Lipizzan.

Someone really needs to tell my horse that :winkgrin: I have seen very few other horses able to get the air time he gets when he's playing. I've had more than one person tell me that he looks positively frightening when he's playing in an arena, and that they can tell it is him by the sound of his thundering hooves.

I just don't think that size is the main factor. There must be another mechanic involved. Whatever that musculature is, just hasn't been bred into the warmbloods.

[sublimequine]

Even halter horses are moving away from the 00 feet aren't they? At least now that HYPP is going out of style they won't be dropping dead randomly ;)

No, they'll just get navicular instead. 1500lb animals on 00 feet, ick ick ick. :dead:

I'm glad they are phasing out HYPP, AQHA will no longer be allowing H/H horses to register, but are still allowing N/H. I wish they'd ban those, too. The Foundation Quarter Horse Assoc has the best idea.. any horse that has Impressive in their lines is not allowed to be registered. Sounds extreme to some, but you won't find any HYPP foundation QHs!

And yeah, I think they are slowly attempting to breed bigger feet onto them, but it's a slow process and when some folks still like the look of the tiny tiny feet, it's like trying to swim upstream. :no:

Sorry, more off topic. :lol:

[Schiffon]

The Cadre Noir do several airs, croupade, capriole, terre a terre and courbette. Not sure if they do levade.



Philippe Karl's Long Reining book has a picture of a horse in pesade on the cover. The text has no mention of the levade, but looking at the degree of hock flexion shown, I can't imagine there could be a more extremely collected movement! Interestingly, the horse is a very dark dapple grey, I wonder how old he is.

[canticle]

One of the most perfect pesades I ever saw was performed by a horse out in the pasture. To think that these are artificial movements that the horse cannot do on his own is to misunderstand the true nature of dressage. ;)

[pattnic]

The Orange One - the picture you linked to is a croupade.

My understanding is that the Pesade is not the same as a Levade, but I'm not sure what the difference is, and I have seen them used interchangeably.

What the Cadre Noir calls a Courbette on the website someone else linked to it what everyone else would call a Levade/Pesade.

The Courbette is the "hopping forward" on the hind legs.

The Capriole starts as a levade, and then a leap up and kicking out of the hind legs.

To the best of my understanding, a Croupade is an instructed kicking out of the hind legs while the horse is balanced on the forelegs. This is not seen at the SRS - only CN mentions it.

The "White Stallion Productions" here in America also has something called the "Mezair." I'm not convinced that it's anything other than an instructed rear.

And I'm surprised that all of you are overlooking the obvious reason the Airs are not part of competitive dressage... the horse comes above the bit!
http://www.lipizzaner.com/home.asp :lol:

[Tonja]

These are some of my favorite examples of Levade
http://www.cheval-haute-ecole.com/levadeNO.JPG
http://www.karlmikolka.com/images/blackie2_bg.jpg
http://www.le-site-cheval.com/figures/images/sauts_ecole/levade3.jpg

[DownYonder]

My understanding is that when training the lippizaners the trainers would see which air(s) about the ground the horse had talent for. None of the stallions did all the airs, only one or two.

My former instructor studied under Michael Handler, son of Hans Handler of SRS fame. We learned through him that the SRS trainers wanted ALL the stallions to learn to levade to some degree. The way the stallion naturally came out of the levade determined whether he would then be trained further for courbette, or for capriole. Some stallions with exceptional strength and balance would hop forward on their hind legs when leaving the levade, so they were trained on for courbette. Stallions that had more of a tendency to explode forward into an upward leap when leaving the levade were trained on for capriole.

[Maren]

Philippe Karl's Long Reining book has a picture of a horse in pesade on the cover. The text has no mention of the levade, but looking at the degree of hock flexion shown, I can't imagine there could be a more extremely collected movement! Interestingly, the horse is a very dark dapple grey, I wonder how old he is.

That dapple grey is Phillipe Karl's 5yr old Lusitano Odin (on the cover). When I rode with Mr. Karl in the late 90s in Germany, he had Odin with him, then into his 20s. To this day, I have not seen a more harmonic, trusting, engaged and correct pair in dressage - ever. This old stallion was so impeccably trained that the entire spectrum of advanced movements, including airs, came so naturally it was absolutely mind boggling. Odin sat in the deepest levade in the middle of Webelsgrund's ancient indoor with Mozart from the loudspeakers and he didn't change his position for roughly 30 sec. I have it on video and keep going back to it.

[sm]

Paul Belasik's book shows him doing Levade and Pesade with a couple of horses, one a TB and the other, I think, a WB of some kind.

The picture here is from Dressage for (in?) the 20th Century, and my recollection is that the horse pictured is a TB:

http://www.equibooks.com/belasik.html

Yes, St Graal is the thoroughbred.
There's a photo on page 8 (this takes forever to load)
http://cvm.msu.edu/research/research-centers/mcphail-equine-performance-center/publications/annual-reports/2003_Annual_%20Report.pdf


Excerpt from page 7:

"The levade is a haute école movement in which the
horse elevates his forehand by up to 30 degrees from
the horizontal. It is initiated from an energetic piaffe.
Horses that perform a correct levade are few and
far between. We were extremely fortunate when Paul
Belasik agreed to bring his horse St. Graal to the
McPhail Center for a study of the mechanics of the
levade. St. Graal is a twelve-year-old Thoroughbred
gelding who graces the cover of Paul’s book,
Dressage for the 21st Century.

"The levade and the pesade, which is a similar
movement performed with a higher angle of elevation
of 30-45 degrees, are important movements in the
classical school, because they form the introduction
to the “airs above the ground,” such as courbette
and capriole. Indicators of correctness in performing
the levade or pesade include the angle of elevation
and the lowering of the hocks. If the horse lifts himself
to an angle higher than 45 degrees and does not
bend the joints of his hind limbs, he is simply rearing
and is not performing a classical movement."

[sm]

wow, even better: The USDF Connections article on St Graal (well, on levade actually, but I digress):

http://cvm.msu.edu/research/research-centers/mcphail-equine-performance-center/publications/usdf-connection/USDF_Oct03.pdf


to answer the OP: "Like the piaffe, the levade is considered a natural evolution of collection and the ultimate test of a trainer’s ability to collect the horse." source: page two, second para of linked article

"The levade—called the mezair in some works of classical equestrian literature—evolved from the pesade as a more challenging movement, with the horse elevating his forehand only to about a 30-degree angle to the ground. Classical trainers began experimenting with lowering the pesade in the nineteenth century, and some experts regard the levade as the most difficult of the 'airs above the ground.'” source: page one, last para of linked article

[sm]

This is too juicy to ignore. If the airs were required at GP, I think we'd see 99% Lipizzans and only 1% WBs in the ring instead of the other way around.


Yes, waaaay to juicy. May I additionally suggest the riders themselves would need to be 99% SRS and 1% FEI GP Dressage riders.

Today's FEI GP riders are constantly (1) behind the motion or the center of gravity, basically at a complete loss here. If that wasn't enough, they are also (2) very active. Two tough habits to break!!

"During the levade, the horse is in a rather precarious state of balance and must constantly adjust his muscle tension to maintain the position. The recommendation of the late Alois Podhajsky, former director of the Spanish Riding School, that the rider should sit as still as possible is certainly good advice, for the horse must also compensate for any movements by the rider. During his levades with Eli, Paul’s body position remained almost vertical (88 degrees in Figure 3), with his center of gravity vertically above the horse’s center of gravity." http://cvm.msu.edu/research/research-centers/mcphail-equine-performance-center/publications/usdf-connection/USDF_Oct03.pdf

[canticle]

Soooo, are GP riders schooling levade at home? If not, should they really be competing at GP? :uhoh:

[siegi b.]

Canticle - so what do you school after you have the airs down pat??

[slc2]

the art of bs'ing, i believe.

[Ambrey]

Canticle - so what do you school after you have the airs down pat??

I thought putting on airs was a favorite past time at COTH?

[fatwhitepony]

And I'm surprised that all of you are overlooking the obvious reason the Airs are not part of competitive dressage... the horse comes above the bit!
http://www.lipizzaner.com/home.asp :lol:


In that photo, yes. Not really a levade or even pesade at that. However, if you had actually ever ridden a real levade, courbette, and capriole, you would know that the horse does not come above the bit! Upon landing you would strive to have the horse maintained through and in utmost collection....otherwise you cannot get in that 2nd, 3rd, etc jump in courbette!

[Beasmom]

the art of bs'ing, i believe.

Very good! Canticle's a master of upper level BS.

[slc2]

:yes:


Even the best riders don't get a perfect levade, courbette or capriole every time. It happens quickly and something can easily go amiss. I have pics of the horses at the Spanish Riding school doing courbette with the mouth wide open and one from Saumur of a croupade with the rider 2 1/2 feet from the saddle. it happens. It happens to everyone who does anything on a horse.

But it doesn't happen every time, or even often, if the jumps come out of collection rather than just teach horsey to jump in the air when he gets smacked with a whip.

The other thing to keep in mind is the terminology being standardized for the jumps never really totally happened. Every school used slightly different terms and the terms changed through history and different translations of books.

Too, you can go to dinner theatre or to Preacher Buck's and see someone doing what they SAY is a levade and it just isn't. There's a lot of bull hockey going around these days about those airs above the ground, which just shows how emotionally attracted and cathected people are to this stuff, how crazy people go when it comes to a horse leaping around and saying it's 'classical'.

But 'mezair' is a legit movement and a very old one. There is even a very 'energizer bunny' looking thing where the horse bounces up and down at the canter.

There are a number of movements that didn't really make it into the classical tradition, such as cantering around holding one leg up and cantering backwards. At some point, many schools DID agree that these were too artificial. Yes, riding is to a degree artificial but they agreed they wanted to stop at a certain point and that was it. They wanted to keep things that involved a more natural gait and not going backwards.

There are two levade like movements, one is easier, and is at a different angle. The higher one isn't a 'bad' one unless one intended to do the other one! Usually the higher angle is the pesade and the lower angle is the levade.

The other, the horse's whole hock and cannon is almost resting on the ground. It doesn't matter if the horse is perfectly schooled or not - that's a very, very difficult movement and only a few horses really should be doing that.

All the work comes out of collection, but it IS true that each horse would be aimed at a different movement depending on his responses. The idea of any one horse doing all of the school jumps - or really - competing in them at all, is really awful.

[pattnic]

In that photo, yes. Not really a levade or even pesade at that. However, if you had actually ever ridden a real levade, courbette, and capriole, you would know that the horse does not come above the bit! Upon landing you would strive to have the horse maintained through and in utmost collection....otherwise you cannot get in that 2nd, 3rd, etc jump in courbette!

Oops - it didn't link to the right page... if you go to the section about the airs above ground, you will see what I was trying to link to. Regardless, it was a joke - while I have never ridden even a piaffe or passage, let alone any of the airs above ground (and doubtless I ever will), I do recognize that the examples given by the "World Famous" Lippizaner Stallions (quotes theirs, not mine) are pretty crappy (the show is also filled with poor examples), and I find it humorous. Then again, the show is pretty well geared towards non-horsey people...

[NoDQhere]

the art of bs'ing, i believe.

Oh thanks! Now I've got coffee in my nose :lol:

[slc2]

Too bad, I went to your website, looked at Mosaic, and now I have drool on the floor. WOW. That is such a balanced looking horse.

[Christa P]

I haven't read the entire thread, but I have a TB that could do the airs.

As a 2 or 3 yr old I watched him do correct Courbette jumps in the field - I told he better NEVER try that under saddle :eek::winkgrin::lol: - I don't ride verticle backs thank you:):lol:.

Another time he did a Capriole with me on him. He was in a tight spot, and he jump straight up with a level back, kicked out (I heard him hit the wood fence behind us) and came straight back down. This one was very easy to ride.

He is one of those horse that was born balanced and would have been a natural Dressage horse. Unfortunatly he was injured as at 3 and never got to compete.

Christa

[Speedy Alice]

I just don't think that size is the main factor. There must be another mechanic involved. Whatever that musculature is, just hasn't been bred into the warmbloods.

You're absolutely right, esp. when one considers spirit, propensity, character, and that innate ability that different breeds of all kinds of species have that makes them particularly suited to doing a particular job, skill, etc.

Dogs and horses have been bred to naturally be retrievers, herders, trackers, hunters, pointers, cowhorses, racehorses, etc. - it's the reason the mission of breeding towards a type exists.

Just the way my Shetland Sheepdog loved to herd the cats but hated to carry things in her mouth, or our German Shorthaired Pointer used to go on point although he'd never hunted a day in his life... the way my old Quarter Horse mare (Poco Bueno lines) dug in like a cat and started cutting a dog that had been running out at her although she'd never been around cows at all...these reflexes and abilities were hard-wired into their genetic make-up.

My Lipizzaner used to levade and capriole when excited under saddle (there are a few pics of him doing this on my website on his memorial page... please note that the one levade pic I used is from when he wasn't strong and so it's not a great levade, but he got better as he got stronger...they were his reaction of choice when he wanted to make a point - we didn't ask him to do it. The capriole was also unasked for and unexpected :) ) and do very bizarre leaps in the paddock. Yes, his conformation made it easier for him to do these things than for a TB or QH, but on top of that, because of his mind and his nature, he *wanted* to do them and enjoyed doing them.

Of course other breeds besides the Lipizzaners, Lusitanos, Selle Francais, and PREs can be taught to do airs, but breeds usually are bred for different minds and bodies for a purpose.

Lipizzans have been bred for over 430 years to have the mind, desire, talent, and conformation that enable them to naturally want to do airs and physically be able to execute them. And they really do like to them. :)

[EASY RIDER STABLE]

Were not taught to the horses as part of GP Dressage but they were taught to the horses to use and manipulate during the war. Therefore they were not ever introduced to the GP Dressage world...although most of those showrings can be considered a "war-zone" ! ! ....heheh

[Beasmom]

Gee, Speedy Alice, I had an OTTB who was plenty "cowy". She'd been started at a feed lot before going to the track. She was as good as a QH when it came to working cattle. Likewise my Arab gelding -- Spanish Arab, could get down nose to nose with calves and cut 'em. He's the same Arab who once offered a levade -- under saddle and very nicely balanced, thank you very much!

And My Hanno gelding loves herding cattle!

Some things are hardwired in -- and some of those same things can be trained in, especially if the horse has a willing mind.

[Kyzteke]

If the horse was truly trained well and taught to be light and collect, :)

Take a gander at any recent dressage competition...there is nothing 'light' about it.

[Speedy Alice]

Gee, Speedy Alice, I had an OTTB who was plenty "cowy". She'd been started at a feed lot before going to the track. She was as good as a QH when it came to working cattle. Likewise my Arab gelding -- Spanish Arab, could get down nose to nose with calves and cut 'em. He's the same Arab who once offered a levade -- under saddle and very nicely balanced, thank you very much!

And My Hanno gelding loves herding cattle!

Some things are hardwired in -- and some of those same things can be trained in, especially if the horse has a willing mind.

Sure... of course there are horses who like to do things that might not be typical of their breed. I didn't say that there aren't. I merely was saying that breed registries have standards and guidelines they follow to breed for a type and purpose, and for the Lipizzan, airs are a part of what they've been bred for.

[Bats79]

Fascinating thread.

What I find most interesting is the names that crop up - PB, KM, Cadre Noir, Spanish Riding School, Royal School of Spain.

Just whom from these schools is going to travel the world teaching the rest of us how to go "one step further" than Grand Prix.

Don't forget, there's no picking the horse most suited to do the airs and the one most suited to do competitive GP - it has to be the same horse and how many of these are there in the world - warmblood or iberian?

If you think there are some brutal freaks out there training piaffe and passage just wait till you see what crawls out of the woodwork to train courbette and capriole.

On of the main prerequisites (and saving graces) of competitive Grand Prix is that the test always call for the horse to stay forward - piaffe, canter pirouettes and 1 x changes can damage the forward of the horse if badly ridden or trained but the following movements help to temper the problem.

If you bring a horse to the stationary yet energised level that airs above the ground require you would radically change the flow and the format of the test.

As slc stated - airs above the ground are better kept to the exibition and performance arena rather than the competition one. We are flat out keeping the "happy athlete" ideal in operation without horses leaping through the air with middle aged riders on them.

[slc2]

Easy Rider most of the students of the Spanish Riding School, most prominently in the USA Karl Mikolka will tell you you are wrong - They who study equestrian history in great detail, will tell you the school jumps were NEVER used in battle - and most cavalry and combat researchers will tell you same, that equestrian arts were NEVER used in battle, and were never developed with even the INTENTION of using them in battle. They were developed as an art and as the pinnacle of collection.

In fact, the assertion that those moves were used in battle defies every component of common sense.

Most of us are not exactly ready to be taught to go a step further than grand prix. Most of us need to work on things a wee tad more basic.

" just hasn't been bred into the warmbloods"

This is a very incorrect statement, but one that''s automatically accepted here with a chorus of 'oh yes!'s because of the very, very distorted don't-bother-me-with-facts statement that is so amazingly accepted and encouraged on this bulletin board and reinforced at every turn. Warmbloods can't piaffe, warmbloods can't do school jumps, goes right along with the soulful lament about how 'today' dressage is going to hell in a bucket and no one really knows how to do it any more except some selected guru.

The Cadre Noir do ALL the school jumps on warmbloods and have for a very, very long time.

The ability to do high level work ISN'T determined by the conformational differences you guys are pointing at. It is #1 about strength, balance and desire - it's also about TRAINING. A number of different types of horses have over the years been used for that work - all very successful.

Mafra. These are mixed types of baroque and warmblood type horses. Noel Jackson has pictures of their horse Catayo, a very warmblood type, leaping five feet off the ground between the pillars. Saumur Cadre Noir. VERY large, heavy warmblood types -and of them the more massive individuals with larger bone are chosen. Jerez. Baroque types. Spanish Riding School. Lipizanners. ALL do school jumps. ALL do high school work. ALL look beautiful doing it!

The Lipizanner was, in fact, in a way, developed in exactly the same way as a warmblood, in the sense it was bred to a type/purpose from a number of very, very different lines, and was rigorously selected for a very similar purpose, just to a slightly older type of warmblood. People here often claim that "Lipizanners are compact" so they can do airs, when actually, quite a few of them have rather long backs and aren't 'compact' in that sense at all.

THAT is changing very, very rapidly, and anyone who LOOKED at the Lipizanners when they came here would see that. What they are selecting for the school is an amazing type, and keep in mind, for YEARS, they have had trouble getting enough horses to select from to start new horses in training - they look at dozens of prospects each year and accept very few of them. Even of Lipizanners, very few are selected for that training.

And of horses selected into the school, AGAIN there is a cut and few of THEM actually ever wind up doing school jumps, there are a heck of a lot of factors more important than how the horse looks in a still picture!

The Lipizanner selected for the school has extremely different conformation than what is 'typical' here in the USA - they are actually short in back, long in leg and extremely balanced - without that 'bulldog' look so many american breeds have - a low, massive forehand and tiny little haunch that looks like it belongs on a different horse.

But I think people are also missing what goes into the selection process that is totally invisible in photographs - flexibility, balance in motion, fluidity, and the desire to get up and jump. Horses that like to kick out, like to jump, like to sit, you can't judge that from a photo. That is in how the horses react to the training over the course of years.

And in fact, some lines for a very long time have had an absolutely amazingly 'warmblood' like conformation - longer in the leg, shorter in the back, unbelievably elegant and stylish, yet still with incredible balance, bone and correct hocks - and this is the type that is predominating today in the selection process for the school and will very likely lead the way to the Lipizanner becoming one of the premier modern sport horses.

It was bred from 6 very different breeds of horse - the Neopolitan couldn't be more different looking from the Siglavy, for example.

The shorter leg and longer back is really its only difference in general type and is something all horse breeds have evolved thru - just the lipizanner more slowly - largely because its other traditional use - driving - doesn't select against that type. It is not even REALLY clear to me that the shorter leg and longer back is desirable to the developers - the horses that score the highest at the examinations are more modern, while still maintaining alot of bone (unlike many more American 'show ring' breeds which are so enthusiastically and systematically bred NOT to be able to do upper level collection).

The critical thing for school jumpers is found in both warmbloods and Lipizanners - general sport horse conformation balance and movement - natural balance in motion, ability to collect (many seem to talk about that here but few seem to understand it or recognize it or see what conformation encourages that), and more than anything - perfect angulation of hocks (not too much, not too little), large articulating surface of the joints of hip, stifle, hock, pastern, something many of our domestic breeds very systematically and consistently are actually bred NOT to have.

Many of our modern halter-class influenced American breeds have been very specifically bred to NOT move or be built in anything even remotely resembling a sport type or a type that would hold up for years to even REACH the GP level of collection - so much so that a person has to search and search thru these individuals to find a sport candidate, and often will have to stop and start over again with a new one when that one goes lame - sickle hocks, heavy front ends, low set necks, tiny navicular prone feet, tiny legs, and most of all, incorrect hocks and an unbalanced conformation (we seem to breed horses with very pretty heads, but with out the back or hind quarter it takes, and without the balance in conformation and distribution of mass) - we have bred away to another purpose with so many breeds that its now actually very difficult to find an individual that even just simply has conformation that would hold up for 4 years of training that would LEAD to collection at a higher level.

[pattnic]

It was bred from 6 very different breeds of horse - the Neopolitan couldn't be more different looking from the Siglavy, for example.

To my understanding, Siglavy was the name of the stallion, not a breed, and Siglavy was an Arab. (Of course, a Neopolitan would still be very different from an Arab)

[sm]

Would have been better to write " 6 very different lines" rather than "6 very different breeds"

The Six Classical Stallion lines are here: http://www.istrianet.org/istria/fauna/horses/lipizzan-breeding.htm

[Sandy M]

Were not taught to the horses as part of GP Dressage but they were taught to the horses to use and manipulate during the war. Therefore they were not ever introduced to the GP Dressage world...although most of those showrings can be considered a "war-zone" ! ! ....heheh

Even Dressage Today and the USDF magazine have published articles debunking the theory that the "airs" were part of warfare. Do we really think someone in the field of battle would have time to cue a horse for a capriole or courbette? And while a levade, pesade or courbette may protect the rider from a sword thrust, they would put an end to the horse and leave the rider on-foot and vulnerable. There are instances of cavalry chargers attacking the enemy - e.g., biting and striking, but airs above the ground? No. The airs (as well as things such as Spanish Walk, passage, piaffe, etc.) are more likely evolved from the 16th Century "carousels" where the nobility could exhibit their advanced horsemanship, fine horses and elaborate clothes/costumes.

[pintopiaffe]

Don't forget, there's no picking the horse most suited to do the airs and the one most suited to do competitive GP - it has to be the same horse and how many of these are there in the world - warmblood or iberian?


I don't think I quite understand this quote. Of course you can choose a type of horse based on your aspirations. And while the majority of horses will never be in the top 2%, the majority can also go as far as the rider has the talent and dedication to go--to the best of the horse's ability.

I do happen to still hold onto the antiquated and somewhat nostalgic notion that most sound horses can do some of the GP movements--to the best of their ability. Will it be a "10" in competition? No. But if the RIDER has the tact, skill and discipline, a horse can learn the movements.

You can choose any horse, be it TB, QH, Iberian, WB... based on where you want to go. I went backwards, I found the Portuguese/French school because of my horse. The way I had been doing things just wasn't right for him. He is very baroque in build, movement and brain. His competitiveness at shows has far less to do with HIS talent than mine. But that isn't my Ultimate Goal(TM). My Ulitmate Goal(TM) with him is to learn all the GP movements. (and yes, he shows talent for pesade/levade.) Will *I* ever be a talented rider to put them all together in a test? I dunno. I won't know until we get there, as the highest level I've ever put stuff together was PSG, and that was when dinosaurs still roamed. Watching the Chinese rider in the Olympics gave me hope--I still have another 20 or 30 years. :p

Anyway, I really don't understand the above quote. You certainly can choose a horse appropriate to your goals and desires. From there, "classical" school or French or Portuguese or PurplePeopleEater school doesn't PRECLUDE you from showing. Several of the school stallions and students at my teachers show, and do very respectably. (score-wise AND placing-wise.) Because the work is CORRECT. One of the stallion's sons went to the Olympics. So the same 'horse' (as in type/breed/etc.) certainly CAN do 'both' with the right rider--though it doesn't go both ways. Not all top level GP horses have the body type, mind and strength for Airs.

Maybe I'm just not getting it. :uhoh:

[MelantheLLC]

And I was wondering, why aren't these employed in 'modern day' Dressage, like in the Olympic rings, at the top levels of the sport? Obviously I understand why they aren't seen in the lower levels, but if you're riding the very top of the discipline, and you are the pinnicle of Dressage talent, how come these maneuvers aren't seen? :confused:

Going back to the OP's question, I was reading Phillipe Karl's long-lining book last night. He mentions in the beginning the history of long-lining, and talks about how in the 15th and 16th C, Pluvinel and Gueriniere brought the Italian single pillar (horse goes in a small circle around) and double pillars to France, where they were used to encourage the pinnacle of collection, that being the airs (or "bounds" as they were called then). This use continued through the 17th C, but then in the 18th, because of the fact that the pillars discourage forward movement, they (the pillars) were replaced by lunging and long-lining.

At Saumur they now train the airs using long-lining and ground work. But as someone else mentioned, this whole history would suggest that the high school airs were abandoned by the general public in favor of forwardness.

To me, the human equivalent would be comparing Olympic weight lifters to sprinters. You can choose one specialization or the other, but you will not be outstanding at the extremes of both because they actually oppose one another in terms of muscular development, balance and "twitch."

So perhaps the modern FEI has chosen to lean toward forwardness over the extreme collection of the high airs in competition. While a given horse may be able to do both, as a given human may be able to both lift weights and race, any individual is going to be better at one or the other, and the better they are at one, the less competitive they will be at the other extreme.

Does that seem logical?

[Tonja]

MelantheLLC wrote:
So perhaps the modern FEI has chosen to lean toward forwardness over the extreme collection of the high airs in competition. While a given horse may be able to do both, as a given human may be able to both lift weights and race, any individual is going to be better at one or the other, and the better they are at one, the less competitive they will be at the other extreme.

Does that seem logical?
I think that’s pretty close. Deep engagement, uphill balance and the high airs actually require more forward energy than the work that is commonly seen at GP. For uphill balance, a greater amount of forward energy is needed so that energy can be redirected upward. I think it would be more accurate to say that modern competition dressage leans more toward horizontal balance as opposed to the uphill balance required for classical work.

[canticle]

The ability to do high level work ISN'T determined by the conformational differences you guys are pointing at. It is #1 about strength, balance and desire - it's also about TRAINING.
Let me get this straight. Very few horses are suitable to high level work, and it is downright cruel to make a TB or QH do dressage. Yet if you have a WB (which is mostly TB), then it is suddenly about training and not about conformation? slick, what are you smoking?

The Lipizanner selected for the school has extremely different conformation than what is 'typical' here in the USA - they are actually short in back, long in leg and extremely balanced - without that 'bulldog' look so many american breeds have - a low, massive forehand and tiny little haunch that looks like it belongs on a different horse.
Short in the back and long in the leg? That doesn't sound balanced to me. And what bulldog American breeds are you talking about? Name them.
The shorter leg and longer back is really its only difference in general type and is something all horse breeds have evolved thru - just the lipizanner more slowly - largely because its other traditional use - driving - doesn't select against that type. It is not even REALLY clear to me that the shorter leg and longer back is desirable to the developers - the horses that score the highest at the examinations are more modern, while still maintaining alot of bone (unlike many more American 'show ring' breeds which are so enthusiastically and systematically bred NOT to be able to do upper level collection).
Name the American 'show ring' breeds you are referring to. Have you ever even worked with American breeds?

The critical thing for school jumpers is found in both warmbloods and Lipizanners - general sport horse conformation balance and movement - natural balance in motion, ability to collect (many seem to talk about that here but few seem to understand it or recognize it or see what conformation encourages that), and more than anything - perfect angulation of hocks (not too much, not too little), large articulating surface of the joints of hip, stifle, hock, pastern, something many of our domestic breeds very systematically and consistently are actually bred NOT to have.
Correct conformation, balance and movement are very hard to find in the European WBs. I have had better luck finding it in our American breeds. What domestic breeds have you worked with? Or even met?
Many of our modern halter-class influenced American breeds have been very specifically bred to NOT move or be built in anything even remotely resembling a sport type or a type that would hold up for years to even REACH the GP level of collection - so much so that a person has to search and search thru these individuals to find a sport candidate, and often will have to stop and start over again with a new one when that one goes lame - sickle hocks, heavy front ends, low set necks, tiny navicular prone feet, tiny legs, and most of all, incorrect hocks and an unbalanced conformation (we seem to breed horses with very pretty heads, but with out the back or hind quarter it takes, and without the balance in conformation and distribution of mass) - we have bred away to another purpose with so many breeds that its now actually very difficult to find an individual that even just simply has conformation that would hold up for 4 years of training that would LEAD to collection at a higher level.
What halter-class influenced American breeds are you talking about? You don't think that WBs are just as rife with their own conformation problems? What makes the WB inspections any different from a halter class? What about the WB YH classes? How is anything in the WB world different from what goes on in the breed shows here? Is it suddenly legit if the horses have funny names?

Your lack of understanding of the American breeds is saddening. But your view of the WB as the perfect and ideal horse is downright dangerous. I suppose I will be called a WB-hater for daring to say that these beautiful horses are NOT perfect, but at least I see reality and am not afraid to say it. I wonder if anyone will call slick out, or will she just get a free pass as usual?

[Ambrey]

Let me get this straight. Very few horses are suitable to high level work, and it is downright cruel to make a TB or QH do dressage. Yet if you have a WB (which is mostly TB), then it is suddenly about training and not about conformation? slick, what are you smoking?


The same thing that everyone else is smoking. I believe it is packed into the "whatever supports the notion that my horse is better than yours" pipe.

[slc2]

'warmbloods lack balance'

LOL. what you smokin'? inferior examples of any breed lack balance.

but there is 'balance' and there is 'balance'. one is the general lack of 'balance of mass' - a heavy low forehand and a small, narrow haunch lacking in scope.

but selecting upper level horses and air horses is not just about ordinary balance. i can skate, too, but i ain't no beth heiden. there is a kind of balance in motion upper level candidates have that other horses don't have. from the very first day under saddle, for example, the way they carry a rider in canter, utterly different. completely different.

"Your lack of understanding of the American breeds is saddening. But your view of the WB as the perfect and ideal horse is downright dangerous"

You're declaring i believe things that i in fact don't believe. and you're declaring i haven't worked with american breeds when in fact i spent most of my adult life doing exactly that and showing them - especially quarter horses, thoroughbreds, appendix quarter horses.

that said, there are traits people select for that go against the grain of athletic sport type and against the selection of upper level prospects - for example, the american breed that specifies that overtracking at the walk is a negative trait, that specifies that sickle hocks and cow hocks are desirable, and yes, several breeds have a very consistent overall balance that is not conducive to selecting upper level horses, specifically the downhill high round rump on so many show thb hunters, the straight hind leg so much liked at the track and in the show ring, the very level, inflexible croup on a number of action breeds, and the tiny feet and legs on overbuilt body found in some QH lines (not the one i got, him, people were telling me, 'Cottage Son, right?')

additionally, 'long legs and a short back' doesn't mean 'freakishly short in the back with out of proportion long legs and unable to balance or move normally'. You made up that part. long legs and a short back refers to a modern type of horse that is very useful and very effective, without being exaggerated. for years, many were choosing horses at the other end of the spectrum - very rectangular some of the individuals were - adn that type has its own problems too, as do all extremes.

but i've responded to enough groundless and pointless accusations from you for one day. :lol:

Someone might consider looking at Podhajsky's book with the pictures of quadrille and airs horses.

You'd be in for a big surprise. The horses are NOT the heavy necked, long backed, short legged type at all. In fact, they look like - well, they have longer legs, shorter backs, etc. they are also quite slim and frankly, they look about as hot as a two dollar pistol. I do recall at the performance a few years ago in the USA that I saw, the jumpers were extremely energetic, hot, excitable, and very wound up about jumping. They also were not short legged or long backed, in fact, quite modern in type.

[canticle]

'warmbloods lack balance'

LOL. what you smokin'? inferior examples of any breed lack balance.
Except there are no inferior WBs. And the WB is superior to all other breeds. That's what you are really thinking, right?

but there is 'balance' and there is 'balance'. one is the general lack of 'balance of mass' - a heavy low forehand and a small, narrow haunch lacking in scope.

but selecting upper level horses and air horses is not just about ordinary balance. i can skate, too, but i ain't no beth heiden. there is a kind of balance in motion upper level candidates have that other horses don't have. from the very first day under saddle, for example, the way they carry a rider in canter, utterly different. completely different.
And you think a WB is likely to display this balance? More likely than any other breed ? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Slick that is SO cute, but you REALLY need to get out more!
You're declaring i believe things that i in fact don't believe. and you're declaring i haven't worked with american breeds when in fact i spent most of my adult life doing exactly that and showing them - especially quarter horses, thoroughbreds, appendix quarter horses.
Wow, so you spent some months around poor quality QHs and now you are an expert? I've spent years around poor quality WBs, so what does that make me? God? :D Newsflash, QHs are a very diverse breed. There are the different types bred for halter, wp, racing, cutting, reining, ranch work, the list goes on. Which types were you exposed to? What bloodlines?

And then you go on to suggest that your limited experience with QHs is applicable to ALL American breeds? Wow, I know you have a reputation for talking out of your ass, but that pretty much takes the cake! Maybe you should learn about the many different American breeds before you try to convince us that they are all equivalent to halter QHs.
that said, there are traits people select for that go against the grain of athletic sport type and against the selection of upper level prospects - for example, the american breed that specifies that overtracking at the walk is a negative trait, that specifies that sickle hocks and cow hocks are desirable, and yes, several breeds have a very consistent overall balance that is not conducive to selecting upper level horses, specifically the downhill high round rump on so many show thb hunters, the straight hind leg so much liked at the track and in the show ring, the very level, inflexible croup on a number of action breeds, and the tiny feet and legs on overbuilt body found in some QH lines (not the one i got, him, people were telling me, 'Cottage Son, right?') Are the WB's numerous conformation issues a problem as well? Or is it ok to breed bad conformation so long as it promotes a "sport type"? I feel that conformation is important regardless of breed or discipline, but you seem ready willing and able to make excuses for your own.
additionally, 'long legs and a short back' doesn't mean 'freakishly short in the back with out of proportion long legs and unable to balance or move normally'. You made up that part. long legs and a short back refers to a modern type of horse that is very useful and very effective, without being exaggerated. for years, many were choosing horses at the other end of the spectrum - very rectangular some of the individuals were - adn that type has its own problems too, as do all extremes.
Yes, long legs and short back is a modern trend which not everyone prefers. Some people prefer short legs and short back.

Let us know when your WB wins the Kentucky Derby. I thought it was only for TBs, but apparently slick's horses can do anything!

[Ajierene]

Dressage came from Cavalry horses:

Dressage is one of the Olympic equestrian sports. The modern Olympics commenced in 1898 with equestrian events, and the “military test” first included in 1900 which evolved into the separate Olympic disciplines of dressage, eventing, and stadium jumping.

By 1912, the equestrian disciplines as we know them (dressage, jumping, and eventing) were included. However, the riders continued to be all male and predominantly military for a few decades. The United States Cavalry at Ft. Riley exchanged ideas and instructors with the schools in Europe and started the trend that brought dressage training not only to the military but to civilians in the United States.

http://www.usdf.org/about/about-dressage/history.asp

The idea that cavalry tactics constituted an art had started with Xenophon around 402 BC, but it was under the Bourbon-Austro-Hungarian alliance of the l6th Century that the idea of classical riding took root throughout the courts of civilised Europe.

http://www.spanishridingschool.co.uk/2006/sylvia-loch-article.pdf

The idea was not so much a horse performing an airs above the ground on cue, but to be able to when needed. Several moves are military related - half passe to avoid the sharp blade or trap. The passage can help the rider fight off more than one infantryman at a time. The airs can strike out at an enemy or help with escape. Not all the movements were used in battle, but the idea of a horse collected, engaged, strengthened for battle. A horse being able to carry himself and so tuned to the rider to be sensitive to his aids is where dressage came from.

It did evolve into an 'art' more of a 'necessity' in the 1600's, or so. The movements were still required, to some degree, in cavalry horses.

This is similar to the discussion of half pass in the hunter ring, opposed to the dressage ring. In battle a perfect half pass is not necessary, similar to fox hunting (where the hunter show riding derives). The point is to get the horse to move over.

Dressage evolved the same way many rodeo and western disciplines evolved. Basically one guy saying his horse can do X better than some other guy and hence 'competition' begins. Whether that X is a prettier half passe, faster spin, more exact tempi changes, better ability to cut a cow/calf from the herd and keep it cut, is immaterial. What happens in the show ring is always a case of 'mine is better than yours' and does not always translate well to the actuality/original purpose of that discipline.

[slc2]

You'll get a lot of argument on that from historians of the cavalry and war, as well as historians of the equestrian arts. For references, I'm not referring to some popular schlock book in which the same untruths are copied over and over from earlier sources making the same assumptions. here is such a thing as 'traditionally incorrect history'.

Actually, I think modern dressage is a blend of traditional more extended movements together with many traditional highly collected movements. I think all of it developed in the riding school, borrowing and amalgamating elements from here and there, the capers and jumps performed in galas and carousels of hundreds of years ago, the courtly riding of an elite that regarded studying the equestrian arts as good for the education of the elite, right along with fencing and studying Machiavelli, etc.

For example, I don't for one moment believe that the extended trot a top dressage horse does - is or ever was - an efficient way to cover long distances, nor that it has any resemblance in technical points to a road trot, strong trot, hunter trot, fence line trot, etc. It is different - because it's a longer stride doesn't mean it is the same, or developed in a direct line from something else.

Riding a highly collected horse in the battle field, having him wheel and kick at the enemy, having him leap in the air to clear a path - lovely, romantic thoughts. The study of the history of horsemanship and war and cavalry would clear that right up.

[Ajierene]

Riding a highly collected horse in the battle field, having him wheel and kick at the enemy, having him leap in the air to clear a path - lovely, romantic thoughts. The study of the history of horsemanship and war and cavalry would clear that right up.

So what books and other references are there that I can peruse to further my knowledge on the subject? I have thus far only been able to find evidence to the contrary.

[slc2]

Try reading what Karl Mikolka has written on the subject, and what any student of the SRS would tell you - they study original works and historical facts, not romantic fiction.

Try The Role of the Horse in Man's Culture by Barclay, or anything factual about the cavalry and what their purpose and activities were like.

Consider the cavalry that slipped the horse's bits from their mouths so the riders could not turn them to run away, LOL. And so the enemy knew they were not ever going to turn and that it was a mad full out charge.

[Beasmom]

Anyone here attend the convention last week? Anyone stop at the Mane Imports booth and watch videos? Anyone notice the German Coldbloods performing airs? Pretty cool!

Proves it's possible for just about ANY horse to do the high school leaps!

[Icecapade]

[QUOTE=slc2;3707264]
For example, I don't for one moment believe that the extended trot a top dressage horse does - is or ever was - an efficient way to cover long distances, nor that it has any resemblance in technical points to a road trot, strong trot, hunter trot, fence line trot, etc. It is different - because it's a longer stride doesn't mean it is the same, or developed in a direct line from something else.

QUOTE]

endurance... big swingy trots... not really nice extendeds. 110% correct here. its nice... its useful... but not for long distances.

I can't agrue the use of airs for calvary uses or not... as infantry developed and the dawning realization of the use of thehorse, the cav was used mostly against footed soldiers rather than other calvary... and soon found that against a phalanx or box it was impenitrable by calvary advances. There truly is not a lot of time to get a horse to do that... have a horse that WOULD react... priceless... can't tell you how many times I went to reenactments wishing I could get a horse to stop faster, turn faster and do exactly what I wanted when I wanted. some of it is feasible... the rest... not so much.

shrug... interesting topics... as there are many here....

[slc2]

There is NO WAY cavalry could charge infantry in rank, that kind of thing never worked and never could, caprioles or not, such a thing is suicide, horses were not used to charge on massed infantry.

[Icecapade]

properly organized massed infantry, you are correct... as I orginally said...

but general infantry before it was determined that a box or phalanx was the most useful tool against Cav? yes. they did.

[flasher]

Scl, you may be an excellent rider, a great trainer and a wonderful resource here at COTH but you are not a very good historian. You're making too broad of a generalization.

It wasn't until modern firearms and metalworking became standard infantry supplies that cavalry didn't overpower infantry on most fields. That's why heavy horse was such an important tool despite the cost associated with it.

Since classical dressage has its roots clear back to Xenophon, why restrict the roots of the various movements to the Napoleonic Wars forward? I think we can all agree that the side pass existed before the musket.

[STF]

Well two days ago the levade, capriole, courbette and other non existant above air movements we part of a VERY NON wanted training plan here at the farm when the cold front blew in.
Not saying I care to carry those into the ring! LOL

[slc2]

We are working on croupades.

The neighbor's terrier is the training cue.

He can fly.

[STF]

Naaa, this was like a levadepiroette...... its a new movement that they made up. Pretty impressive as long as I stay on! :lol:

[thatmoody]

My cue is an aggressive squirrel. Truly impressive hangtime from a TB.

[STF]

LMAO
Been there.
Crazy cat jumped down off the barn one day.
I did moves I did not know I could do and VERY high off the ground.
:lol:

[thatmoody]

I have to confess that as a kid I grew up near Myakka, and hung out at the Lipizzaner's ranch there, and it was truly an awesome experience. The babies were the best - their level of play is different from other babies.

We now have an Andy stallion that we bought from them, and he's a lot of fun to ride, although he doesn't do airs (and we are not planning on working on them, either, even though we're working with the Lipizzan trainers to polish him). He is now being retrained as a dressage mount, but he has some interesting "tricks" that they don't teach at the SRS - he will waltz, and we're beginning to teach him to bow. Not practical stuff, but fun, and he's a ham (there are pictures of him in my Chronicle page).

When my TB saw the squirrel, he reared, then leaped forward, which was actually fun! But he doesn't really have the hock/stifle configuration to get really low so it wasn't like move on a high school horse, of course :P.