Conditioning epsm and/or slow twitch horse for dressage?

[Alexie]

i'd welcome any opinions, experiences and thoughts you people have on getting a horse fit for dressage, a horse that has shown lots of improvement on the EPSM diet with a selenium/vit e/lysine supplement.

he is 3/4 tb and 1/4 shire, and builds muscle quite slowly in comparison to my full tb.

i believe that fast twitch horses are sprinters with less endurance, whereas slow twitch horses are stayers that are no good at sprinting

from that thought, i think he's slow twitch (i have no interest in getting him tested, we're just having fun trying our best)

have you any suggestions for the best way to get him fit?

how would you get a slow twitch horse fit for dressage, how would you get a fast twitch horse fit?

and how would you accomodate the epsm?

[Dianna]

Addressing the EPSM part of the equation, I would keep this horse on a diet where a true 20% of the calories are coming from fat. I would also have this horse on added Vit. E and MSM as part of the equation as well.

As to conditioning. I sent my daugther's WB to Florida to be legged up. He is an Allaczar baby and with that he had the "big" gene. We decided that in order for this horse to have a chance at soundness, his initial/underlying muscling up had to be precise and that we simply didn't have the proper facilities to accomodate this horse. So, off to my ex hubby (who is a retired jockey and makes his career getting young horses legged up and racing - TB's).

What he found to be true was that this horse was very different from legging up a TB. Where his (now) wife could ride 4-6 TB's a day, she could only ride one WB and maybe another TB a day. He took at good 20-30 minutes of warmup - going boldly forward before his mucles were warmed up and ready to work some more. So, a solid 45 minute to one hour workout was what he worked up to.

They were amazed at how he quickly took on an appearance of "fitness" but was truly far from being fit. He did lots of walk in the beginning and then progressed to trot ... but forward and big. They didn't focus on "on the bit" or anything more than moving forward and building up strength and stamina. He was in Florida from September through the 1st of May and he did loose some time due to an abcess ... but when he came home, he was in incredible shape.

Here he is upon his arrival to Florida (September):

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l212/Blasingim/Czane%20Week%203/10-05-06czanefix6.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l212/Blasingim/Czane%20Week%203/10-05-06czanefix11.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l212/Blasingim/December%205%202006/09-24005.jpg

December:

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l212/Blasingim/December%205%202006/DVC00086.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l212/Blasingim/December%205%202006/DVC00076.jpg

February:

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l212/Blasingim/February%203%202007/DVC00158.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l212/Blasingim/February%203%202007/DVC00159.jpg

May:

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l212/Blasingim/Czane%20-%20Last%20Day%20in%20Ocala/05-04-07022.jpg

This is a link to some video footage:

http://s97.photobucket.com/albums/l212/Blasingim/?action=view&current=Sampleforsize.flv

http://s97.photobucket.com/albums/l212/Blasingim/?action=view&current=CzaneTrotandCanterDecember2006-earl.flv

[Melyni]

It really isn't that clear cut, as in all horses have a mix of both muscle fiber types in their muscles albeit in different proportions.
BUt wiht horses (as opposed to humans) the fiber types are far more plastic, and thus you will develop the fiber types that you train.

So for a horse with a lot of cold blood in it, so shorter faster sections of work. E.g. warm up, very forward then do a short stint of hard work, followed by a walk rest, then do another short (5 mins max) of hard work, then a walk rest. Keep going o this pattern, hard but short work followed by enough time to recover. Gradually build up the time spent in the hard work and every now and then increase the hardness of the work, but keep the duration short.
Make sure the work includes some cardiovascular work at least twice or preferably 3 times a week. Galloping very short distances interspersed with rest walks, gradually building up the duration of the gallop.

Lots of recovery times between sprints as it were and a nice long cool down.

Don't feed high fat, feed high fiber and IF the horse needs it add in the extra calories in a feed with a decent amount of fat. Don't use sugar or starch, use digestible fiber and only feed fat IF the extra calories are needed.

A small amount of high quality protein and a decent mineral mix with enough copper and zinc and magnesium in it. Preferably use a chelated copper and zinc supplement as then you know the horse is absorbing the minerals.

Good Luck.
Yours
MW

[Alexie]

thankyou both for your input :)

Melyni your advice on exercise is great, we seem to have arrived at that sort of fast hard work in short spells followed by allowing recovery in our lessons

i guess my trainer read him and took it into consideration, without mentioning it to me

i'll certainly gear our rides and schooling more towards your suggestions, thankyou :D

[Dianna]

Having been through the process of legging up a WB type and a TB type, the WB types simply aren't ready for much "speed work" until after a very, very long time with specific conditioning so that they can safely carry the canter/gallop.

Good luck with your project and do let us know how the horse is progressing.

[Lgd1]

I compete a Fell Pony who has EPSM. He's currently competing successfully at elementary and medium level. If I could convince the opinionated little beggar that changes need to happen on the aid when asked for he would be capable of advanced as he P&Ps for fun.

Fittening with him had to be done very slowly. Lots of walk with short bursts of faster/more demanding stuff in the beginning. We found that he coped best with schooling alternate days at first with just turn out or in-hand walking the other days. As his fitness improved the faster work was built up gradually so that he can now work on consecutive days and puts in a normal 40 minute schooling session.

Competing in winter is a bit more problematic. Got it pretty much sorted now - he travels in a magnetic back & quarter pad, if it is very cold I allow 45 mins before his first test and he walks for the first 20 - 30 minutes with a fleece quarter sheet on. Some of the walk is lateral suppling stuff. Quarter sheet only comes off after he has had a trot and canter on each rein. Then work in trot and canter, loads of transitions small amount of lateral work for suppling purposes. He needs way less actual work than my two mares to be through and ready for a test.
If I'm doing two tests I ask the organiser to get them as close together as possible for winter comps to avoid working in twice. Summer comps he only needs 15 mins working in for his second test.

Feeding-wise it was a struggle for a long time with the EPSM diet as he disliked the amounts of oil needed. He is now on Winergy Equilibrium Low (3.5% starch, high oil, high fibre) with 50ml oil in each feed and Selenavite E added. Going the best he's ever gone and he will be 19yo next spring. Qualified for winter FSM regionals at elementary and medium with 69% and 67% respectively. He narrowly missed the top 10 line up at the regionals in the medium this year.

If you want, PM me your e-mail and I'll forward some before and after pics of him and answer any questions you have.

[Alexie]

Thankyou Dianna :)

Lgd1 I think I've seen pictures of your fell on New Rider, looking fantastic as all your horses do, though not before and after pictures specifically.

Would I be too cheeky if I asked you if you minded posting before and after pictures on this thread? :o

I'm sure they will be impressive and an inspiration to those of us struggling with similar problems :)

Fittening with him had to be done very slowly. Lots of walk with short bursts of faster/more demanding stuff in the beginning. We found that he coped best with schooling alternate days at first with just turn out or in-hand walking the other days

This sounds so much like my horse!

[Eclectic Horseman]

Make sure that he is getting enough protein--especially the critical amino acids to build protein in addition to the Vit. E & selenium.

Once I did that with a horse I was training that had epsm, I started building his hindquarters using cavaletti on a circle. First long lining and on the longe line, 4 poles. Then a little at a time, I added poles and raised one end until he could do a dozen trot cavaletti in a circle raised to 24" on the outside--mounted.

This horse had a real problem keeping and maintaining muscle, and the cavaletti program really helped.

[Alexie]

Thankyou EH, regarding protein and amino acids, he has lysine in his selenium/vit e supplement and is on pink powder (a vit and mins + probiotics supplement) and good quality haylage.
The supplements are given in a chaff made for laminitics as I assume it won't have a high sugar content.
I'm used to feeding hard feed to up protein in their diets - but if I feed this horse hard feed he just gives up on life so that's not the answer for him.

How else can I feed him protein?

[Eclectic Horseman]

Thankyou EH, regarding protein and amino acids, he has lysine in his selenium/vit e supplement and is on pink powder (a vit and mins + probiotics supplement) and good quality haylage.
The supplements are given in a chaff made for laminitics as I assume it won't have a high sugar content.
I'm used to feeding hard feed to up protein in their diets - but if I feed this horse hard feed he just gives up on life so that's not the answer for him.

How else can I feed him protein?

Alfalfa hay, Alfalfa cubes or pellets are great. About 18% protein and the right type. If you feed oil to replace the starch calories, then alfalfa pellets are good to absorb the oil too because they are highly palatable.

Some people feed soybean meal--and although it is very high protein, I have heard that not all horses tolerate it. So alfalfa would be my choice. You may want to balance the minerals (alfalfa is high in calcium) if you feed too much of it, but it is usually not a problem.

[Alexie]

Thanks again EH, I used to feed him an alfalfa based chaff, but he wasn't that keen on it and it didn't seem to make any difference to his fitness at that time.
I will look for alfalfa pellets and try him on those :)

[slc2]

i'd welcome any opinions, experiences and thoughts you people have on getting a horse fit for dressage, a horse that has shown lots of improvement on the EPSM diet with a selenium/vit e/lysine supplement.

he is 3/4 tb and 1/4 shire, and builds muscle quite slowly in comparison to my full tb.

i believe that fast twitch horses are sprinters with less endurance, whereas slow twitch horses are stayers that are no good at sprinting

--I really don't think that's true. Actually, some muscles have more fast twitch fiber and some have less, in the same animal. It depends on what muscle it is.

-- I had one area of the quads that biopsied about 96% fast twitch and another area of the quads that was very different. I REALLY don't think a whole horse is either all fast twitch or slow twitch muscles nor that muscle type accounts for what you're describing.

--'No good at sprinting' or 'no good at endurance' isn't really true, it's nowhere near that black and white. MOST riding sports require a horse to have both a 'slow twitch' kind of fitness AND a 'fast twitch' kind of fitness. Dressage work requires a LOT of mixed activity - one muscle might be 'powering' and at the same time, another muscle might be 'sustaining', and in the next exercise those muscles might switch jobs, that's why dressage horses look so different from gallopers and race horses. The muscles have many different jobs. The piaffe might make the abdominal muscles look absolutely ripped and the extended trot might really work the stomach muscles a different way. The stifle area might really work hard bringing the hind leg forward quickly and do something very different in the half pass.

--And I don't think the 'fast twitch' or 'slow twitch' thing has ANYTHING to do with whether a horse conditions quick or not. It has to do with what chemical reaction or 'energy pathway' is being predominantly used by that muscle right at that second.

-- In fact, the part draft horses could conceivably have more fast twitch muscle tissue in certain muscles if they are being used for draft.

-- The muscle type actually changes, and may adapt to different kinds of exercise, in younger animals, so becomes even less dependent on breed.

-- I think how slowly the draftier types condition has a lot more to do with them being laid back and not exercising on their own. It just takes more effort too get them fit and takes longer.

--It is also incorrect that muscles are either fast or slow twitch. There are also intermediate types of muscle.

--I think there are many other factors that affect conditioning - thyroid levels, mass and bulk of the animal, red blood cells, myoglobin, mitochondria...heavier bred animals are different in so many ways from lighter quicker horses.

from that thought, i think he's slow twitch (i have no interest in getting him tested, we're just having fun trying our best)

have you any suggestions for the best way to get him fit?

how would you get a slow twitch horse fit for dressage, how would you get a fast twitch horse fit?

and how would you accomodate the epsm?

--epsm is managed mostly through diet.

-- i would condition my horses the same regardless if they were seeming to condition quickly and easily or not. I wouldn't be fooled by the 'quick conditioning' horse - I'd remember it takes the same amount of time for tendons, bones and ligaments to adapt and toughen, and use the same progressive program, and not take less time for the 'faster fitter' horse. I'd emphasize shorter, more frequent rides, with lots of changes of tempo and gait and direction. I'd keep in mind that the slower conditioning horse may benefit from two short rides a day more than one long one. I'd try to have hand walking, swimming or turnout give the horse more activity.

--I'd go very forward on the 'slower' horse, and work a little more on loosening and supplier the quicker horse. I'd have a 'progress chart' and add minutes of cantering each week.

--I'd use my heart monitor if I was concerned about the slower conditioning horse, and I'd be REAL sure his thyroid levels were normal and that he wasn't carrying so much weight it was hard for him to work.

--I'd be getting a baseline on either type of horse once a year, and seeing if the 'slower conditioning' horse was stressing or sweating or getting overly tired or lying down too much.

[Melyni]

Thanks again EH, I used to feed him an alfalfa based chaff, but he wasn't that keen on it and it didn't seem to make any difference to his fitness at that time.
I will look for alfalfa pellets and try him on those :)

Actually I wouldn't use either alfalfa or SBM. Both of these are too low in protein quality and will just increase urine output and might make the horse hot and hard to handle.

I would use a mix essential amino mix like Muscle Mix™, which supplies only the aa's needed and thus reduces the stress on liver and kidneys. Plus it''ll increase his energy.

From your comments on using haylage, chaff and 'hard feed', I'm going to hazard a guess that you are in the UK. So I don't know if you can get a hold of Muscle Mix™, if that is so, they try going to the health food store and buy some whey protein, preferably the unsweetened unflavored kind. Give the horse 20-30g a day (a teaspoonful) to boost the protein quality.
He would also benefit from some extra Omega 3s, try a cupful of whole flax seed (unground) added to his feed, it's also a great GI tract lubricant.

If you are in the USA, there is a super supplement made especially for cold blooded horses called Freisian Formula Fit (http://3starhorses.moonfruit.com/)

It's made (as the name implies) for Freisians, who are very typical of this type of horse and who can't eat the standard supplement made for TB's and QHs.
You get much better energy and stamina and better muscle development, it's high in minerals as well as essential amino acids and is really good for them.
Or you can get LinPro from Foxden Equine that also helps

Good Luck
Yours
MW

[JB]

Thankyou EH, regarding protein and amino acids, he has lysine in his selenium/vit e supplement
If the lysine is just tagging along with the e/se supp, I just about guarantee it's of little significance - 1-2gm maybe? Do you now? MOST of the time, you're looking at adding 10gm or more. I'm adding about 15-20gm to my horses.

The supplements are given in a chaff made for laminitics as I assume it won't have a high sugar content.
Probably - which chaff?

I'm used to feeding hard feed to up protein in their diets - but if I feed this horse hard feed he just gives up on life so that's not the answer for him.

How else can I feed him protein?
You're right, you can't just throw more hard feed to up the protein, because while that ups the total protein, the total protein you see listed in feeds is crude protein, which is at least partly a matter of nitrogen content.

You add the building blocks - the amino acids - separately. That's why Tri-Amino from Uckele is great - 10gm lysine, 5 methionine, and 2 threonine, the top 3 limiting amino acids. It does sound like you are in the UK, so Uckele shipping would kill you (but e-mail and ask, nice people :yes:) but surely there is something comparable over there. At the very least I bet you can find a lysine supp.

[Lgd1]

The Winergy is alfa based and all of ours gobble it down, even Picky Parky P.

Nutritional breakdown

Energy MJ/kg 8.3
Starch 3.5%
Fibre 27%
Oil 4%
Protein 10.5%
Copper 35mg/kg
Zinc 120mg/kg
Selenium 0.4mg/kg
Vitamin E 400iu/kg

When we needed more oomph/weight gain I used the Growth version

Energy MJ/kg 12.5
Starch 5%
Fibre 23%
Oil 10%
Protein 15%
Copper 40mg/kg
Zinc 125mg/kg
Selenium 0.5mg/kg
Vitamin E 450iu/kg

I add in the Selenevite E because as time has gone on he has needed a lot less feed than intially recommended so the essential mins/vits are not there. I've found the same with all of the horses (the others are on it as well) and although it is more expensive per kilo it works out cheaper to feed.

I'll have to link photos from home as can't do it from work.

[Alexie]

wow thanks for your responses :)
yes I'm in the UK :)


slc2 this horse has always been easy to keep trim, not a hard to keep horse just never prone to putting on wieght until I started leaving the hard feed out oddly enough though he's still far from being a fatty :)
He has always been unclipped to as he just doesn't sweat that much either, though once again he sweats a bit more on the EPSM diet. I agree compared to the TB he'll happily trundle along in a dawdle where as the TB is all viens popping raring to go.

Melyni is flax the same as linseed? thankyou for the tip about whey powder/amino mix, I'll certainly give that a try!
JB it's called safe and sound, I think it's a chaff made by dodson and horrell. Yes the lysine is all in the same selenium/vit e supplement, I'll check the dose he's on tomorrow. (it's cold and wet and dark at the mo so I'm staying by the fire :o)

Lgd1 I've looked but our local feed stores don't stock winergy :( I can get denjivite (sp)alfa a products, are they very different to Winergy?
Looking forward to the pics :)

Dianna just had time to look at the pics of your horse
May:

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l2...5-04-07022.jpg



He's looking in great shape :) gorgeous boy

[Alexie]

yup JB you were right, 2.4g lysine a day.

I will deffinately try him on more amino acids, it makes sense :)

[Lgd1]

Would have to look at the nutritional breakdown - not one I know.
If any of them do Spillers feeds they should be able to get the Winergy for you as they come from the same warehouse. (Winergy now own Spillers or vice versa)

[Alexie]

thanks Lgd1, they do have spillers, so I will enquire :)