Are we alone in this, no leg support

[Windy Willow]

My dressage trainer friend has been riding my " failed at foxhunting homebred TB horse" We have high expectations for him to advance in dressage and she has been putting alot of time in him, she has been working him inhand and he has been awesome . He is not a easy horse to ride. By her riding him correctly he has started to look the part.( haha a real dressage horse of my own) She has been bringing him along more than I could ever have done. she is a perfectionist and has no use for anyone or anything other than true classical dressage training,( She had him doing his first piaffe last Wed)

Since she has been riding him I have a peaked interest in dressage and have for the first time started reading my stacks and stacks of USDF magazines that I have accumualted since 2003.( I have ridden him through training 4 ) Also for the first time I have been reading the dressage threads on COTH :)

My question is.......Is there any one beside her that believes a horse that does not NEED boots for protection, they should not school in them.Her theory is that if you are always supporting your horse his tendons will be weaker because they have always had the support. I have been looking through the USDF seeing who has and who hasnt. Some horses are ridden with and some without.

I know at the lower levels you can not compete with leg wraps/supports but at what level is it acceptable?

Also the same question for using flash attachments.If you do not need one why use one? Is everyone that is using them needing them or is it just because its proper attire, kind of like a breastplate and martigale while hunting?

She is down on alot of products and there use because she believes that alot of it is marketing....$

[JWB]

Wraps are not acceptable at any level of dressage competition. Hunters also do not compete in any sort of wraps, however I know most trainers (dressage and hunters) use them for schooling. I've heard the "weakness" theory but don't buy into it because the horse is unwrapped much of the day and a splint boot doesn't really provide any support anyhow - it just protects the horse from hitting itself.

Personally I use splint boots on anything with shoes because it's cheaper to prevent an injury than to treat one. True, my horse PROBABLY won't hit herself with her shoe - but on the freak chance that she does, I like to know she's got some protection.

[McVillesMom]

There are no boots that really offer support. Think about it - you have a 1000+ pound animal coming down, at speed, on those legs - wrapping a piece of neoprene or whatever around them isn't going to make a damn bit of difference. If something's going to tear, so-called support boots are not going to prevent it. The only thing boots really do is prevent interference. Some horses don't need them (mine is not one of them! :lol:)

Wraps or boots are not allowed at any level in dressage.

As far as the flash goes - it's not really so much about "proper" attire, as it is a trend. Everyone's using them, so it's become the accepted thing. If the horse doesn't need it, don't use it. It's that simple. :)

[Windy Willow]

I thought for sure in watching some high level showing on you tube and also in USDF mag some had white legs wraps.

She ALWAYS wraps in trailering.( for protection) which I don't . My rule is if its under two hours they dont get wrapped. (just called me lazy or too in a hurry :(

So I don't guess I will order the bridle with the flash attachment since it is not neccesary.She is definitely not a trend follower:)

[McVillesMom]

No, sorry if I wasn't clear. A flash is NOT required. You can use a regular caveson noseband, a flash, or a figure 8 at the lower levels. (Higher levels, caveson only - I think this goes with the double bridle, but I'm not 100% sure.)

You may have seen demonstration rides, etc with white polos, but you cannot compete in them. :)

[Ambrey]

I worry about using boots/wraps for interference more than support. I don't sweat not using them, though, on my big guy- he is wide-based and not extravagant, the chances of him really bashing any two legs/hooves together are pretty slim. My pony, on the other hand... narrow with a huge overstride, I'm convinced I'm going to forget boots/wraps some day and he's going to injure himself.

I just can't imagine that a basic polo wrap adds that much support to the tendons if you wrap it in such a way that it doesn't constrict movement.

The flash is great for fussy horses that like having the bit held up in their mouths. But, honestly, if you aren't having an issue, why add an extra piece of equipment?

[slc2]

...Her theory is that if you are always supporting your horse his tendons will be weaker because they have always had the support....

--Not possible. Boots cannot 'support' a leg or its tendons - at all. Boots are a little bit of fleece, vynil, leather and neoprene, and some straps. They provide absolutely no 'support' to tendons at all. A horse's foot lands on the ground with several thousand kilograms of force - no scrap of fabric or neoprene is going to change that.

--Same for polo wraps.

--There is a lot of baloney being said about products like 'support boots' and about various bandages, wraps and boots. None of them will 'support' tendons or prevent weight bearing injuries.

--Boots protect the leg from blows. A horse might trip, stumble, spook, or bolt during a ride, and might kick up rocks, thorns or gravel on its legs. Worse, it might strike itself in the leg with another of its hooves - these injuries tend to be extremely painful and involve a great deal of force. Boots offer some protection to blows and injuiries and rocks and stones.

--My horses usually wear boots during turnout, work in an indoor or outdoor arena, and especially for longeing, where they might play and step on themselves. For the hardest work, I use polo wraps, which can stay on after the ride for about 45 minutes (and even better, get sprayed with cold water when the horse gets a bath), and take away much of any filling of the legs - supposedly, most filling of the legs occurs in the 45 minutes after work.

...I have been looking through the USDF seeing who has and who hasnt. Some horses are ridden with and some without....

--Most hunter jumper people tend to go without or to use open fronted boots - many by habit, and originally, the idea was this would make the horse feel it if he hits a jump. There do seem to be quite a few hunter jumper people that work their horses in polos or ankle boots (for interfering behind).

--Quite a few eventers and dressage people seem to use polos or boots.

I know at the lower levels you can not compete with leg wraps/supports but at what level is it acceptable?

--Boots and wraps in dressage are not allowed in any competition. You only see them during exhibitions or warmups. The rider has to remove the wraps before he goes in the ring (or get someone who will do it for him).

Also the same question for using flash attachments.If you do not need one why use one? Is everyone that is using them needing them or is it just because its proper attire, kind of like a breastplate and martigale while hunting?

--That's surprisingly controversial. Some people think that flashes are horrible and used to force the horse's mouth shut to fool the judge into thinking this horrible ridden horse is not horribly ridden (no judge was ever fooled by a flash).

--They aren't required - the rider can choose whether he wants a plain caveson or a flash, dropped noseband or grackle noseband when he competes at the lower levels using a snaffle bridle. Flashes got into popular use first with European eventers because they didn't like having the drop noseband on their horses - the dropped noseband come a little lower on the nose and some people felt they interfere with the horse flaring his nostrils. Usually if the horse pulls or is difficult the rider will choose a drop noseband or something besides a flash. The flash works very well for holding the bit steadily in the mouth, which some horses prefer.

She is down on alot of products and there use because she believes that alot of it is marketing....

--Alot of it IS marketing. You would think we were torturing our poor horses forty years ago when we didn't use all that stuff, LOL. Horsekeeping and tacking up CAN be fairly simple and uncomplicated, but some changes of tack really are improvements.

[CurlyLindsay]

Is it coincidence that the folks that are the most anal about wrapping are the ones always nursing an injury? :rolleyes: Certainly it's anecdotal, but it seems to me like the barns that wrap for work, wrap for turnout, standing wrap in stalls, etc have the absolute lamest horses, and the barns that never wrap, ever, have uncanny luck at keeping a full barn of sound horses.

The trainer I began riding with when I began riding with as an adult was very anti-boots & wrapping. He said "if they didn't have the sense to learn to avoid stepping on their own feet they weren't safe to ride". Crazy idea, but I never saw a lame horse or a horse with a leg injury the entire time I rode there...

I only ride first level, but reasonably hope to achieve 3rd with my gelding and I never wrap him, ever, with the rare exception being when my eventer friend takes him cross country a few times a year.

I'm also a fan of plain cavessons. I'm certainly not anti-flash or crank, but isn't dressage about putting the training in so that you don't have to rely on tack? (like boots, martingales, curbs, etc- I lump some nosebands into a pretty similar category as those items)

[Dune]

Have your horse accidently whack himself while you're riding him or out in turnout and you'll get over the issue of they must be wild and free at all times. :winkgrin: As far as the whole crank/flash thing goes, it's hogwash too, the mare that likes to stick her tongue out and gape her mouth when annoyed can still do so...even with all the "tie-downs". :lol: I'm with your trainer on not getting too carried away with fads, so here's what I use on just about everybody: Clinics/shows: clean, white polos until we actually enter the class. Schooling: clean, white woof boots. I do have the crank/flash because it came on the bridle and I do think the crank is nicely padded and looks to me to be more comfortable because of that. The flash is just to keep things stable in the mouth and help remind the youngsters to keep their mouths closed although it does not prevent them from doing so if they are so inclined. ;)

[Windy Willow]

Wow , I'm kind of surprised that so many already have responded and with the same sentiments as she has. I't's just that I was seeing SO MANY with wraps on in the magazines etc...
she is a very wise women when it comes to horses and CurlyLindsay , what your first trainer said , sounds just like her.

She pretty much poohys the wraps for support also so she is of the same mind set.,

AND I must ask S/c2... when the heck do you find the time to ride with 20,031 post on your belt!:D My gosh! Can I expect a reply from you about anything I post:) Like I said I am just starting to read the dressage threads and not getting bored like I used to;)Coming over from the dark side. haha

Oh and CurlyLindsay when you said that the people that are anal about leg wraps are the ones with the horse that get the most injurys, lameness issues ect....you are exactly right and SHE mentioned that to me today because we were thinking of a local DQ that has that problem and I swear she is so anal about EVERYTHING.

"

[Perfect Pony]

Well I don't use a flash because my mare does not need one.

I also never put boots or wraps on my mare during work. I also see a lot of horses with tendon and ligament injuries that get wrapped and booted up, but I have my own theory and reason for not using boots and it has absolutely nothing to do with support.

One day I took off my mares boots and was just shocked at how hot her legs were. I personally just don't think that is a good thing, so I simply do not believe in over heating my horses legs during work. IMO the ligaments and tendons need to breath and stay cooler, basically regulate their own temperature. I figure I would be absolutely miserable if I wrapped my legs with leather or neoprene or wraps and went out running.

[McVillesMom]

There is actually evidence that excessive heat (such as that which can be produced by wearing boots/wraps) can cause weakening and breakdown of tendons. There was a thread about it on the Eventing forum a while back. Maybe that's part of why the chronic wrappers seem to have more problems...?

[quietann]

My mare doesn't wear wraps, and she doesn't move in a way that would indicate she needs them. For jumping, when she was being jumped, yes she wore them because occasionally she'd whack a leg pretty hard on a fence. She was an eventer, and hitting those solid fences *hurts*. Even a show jump that is designed to fall down when struck can whack a horse's legs really hard. Some people in my barn use wraps, some don't; I haven't noticed any trends as far as soundness... except the higher-level horses seem to have more soundness issues.

As for the flash.... my mare wears one. I am not thrilled about it, but it's kept fairly loose... we want her to chew the bit, just not to get her tongue over it. Most of the horses in the barn wear a flash, a few wear cranks, a few wear an ordinary cavesson. I will agree that they are trendy. What do people think of using a bridle with the little loop for the flash on the noseband, but no flash? It seems like that might be useful if at some point a flash is needed.

[Windy Willow]

the little loop in the front of my bridle annoys me too since we dont use a flash attachment.Thats one reason I'm in the market for a new bridle beside the fact that I dion't particulary like the padded white liner , plus it just flat out needs replacing.

I just posted on a dressage bridle thread.I am looking at the rolled bridle that Bartsville Harness has. I buy all my leather from them and have for years now. they have a 15% sell going on and I could get the rolled leather for 205 instead of 245. and thats still more than I've ever paid for a hunt bridle:(
There $100 bridles are equivalent to catalogs $200 bridles so I'm hoping there $200 bridle will be up there with the $300 catalog bridles.

What the heck is rolled leather ?

[apcohrs]

I put on hock-high shipping boots for every trailer ride. Always. Shipping boots dont take long to put on.

I was at a barn where a horse had to be put down when another horse kicked him in the trailer and broke his leg.

[Kementari]

A) Boots/wraps don't provide support.

B) Even if they DID, and even if you ride your horse two hours a day every day, do you REALLY think that 14 hours protected each week out of 168 hours total could honestly make a horse "dependent?" I've always found that to be one of the dumbest arguments out there...

My horses wear leg protection whenever they are worked (except in competitions where it's prohibited, of course). I've seen the damage that a horse who didn't seem to have a clumsy bone in his body can do to himself when being pushed to use himself in a different way and not figuring out quite in time where that meant all his legs needed to go (at least, that's what seemed to happen - obviously, we have no idea what's going on in a horse's head, really!). Not career-ending, luckily, but it would have been season-ending if it hadn't happened at the very beginning of the off-season, anyway. It's a lot cheaper to use leg protection every day than to pay the emergency vet bills for even one freak injury. We can't prevent ALL freak injuries, of course, but I don't see why we shouldn't protect against the ones that are EASY to prevent.

I don't boot up for turnout (unless I'm protecting an existing injury), because I don't think the risk of the boots themselves causing injury (where a horse isn't going to be constantly supervised like they are when being worked) is worth the protection they provide.

But my horses don't set foot on a trailer without leg protection (unless its with a commercial shipper where, again, the risk outweighs the benefit). We used to trailer a couple of times a week to an indoor that was literally a five minute drive away, but they still didn't go naked-legged. It's simply not worth the risk - plus most trailering injuries I've seen have been from loading or unloading, and you have to do both of those things regardless of the length of your trip.

One of my horses goes in a flash and the other doesn't. The one who uses a flash seems to like the bit kept more stable in his mouth; it's certainly not tight enough to keep his mouth shut (and, quite frankly, I don't think I've EVER seen a flash that you COULD tighten enough to keep a horse's mouth shut if he really wanted to open it). He CAN go without - has to when he does hunt seat stuff - but is happier with. The baby doesn't need one, so she doesn't wear one. If you don't like the flash loop on your bridle, it's far cheaper to cut it off than to buy a new bridle, though...

[Manes and Tails]

Rolled leather is just that, rolled...the noseband and browband are sort of curled around into tubes. Some people think it looks good, some don't.

I believe in wrapping when trailering. Other than that, I think boots should only be used when jumping (esp. cross country) or riding an animal prone to striking itself.

The barn I ride at has two horses that wear boots. One, a school horse, has one of the narrowest front ends I've ever seen and brushes horribly. The second is a boarder who wears bell boots for riding and turnout because he's bad about stepping on his own heels.

[pintopiaffe]

well, I use boots or polos when I am schooling new lateral work, or really, anything new for the first time. Babies are ALWAYS booted in front when being started, probably for their first two years. It is for interference, not support. When you have a volunteer horse, they sometimes offer things you don't want/expect trying to find the right answer. Two minutes of my time to wrap or boot could save me weeks off due to a split or worse.

My main guy wears bells too, because if he's not balanced, he catches his front heels.

I generally start babies in a very loose drop because then they never learn they CAN cross their jaw, but also because it helps stabilise the bit. If it's good enough for the SRS, it's good enough for me. Most of the adults go with just a plain french cavesson... or in the winter, no noseband at all as it's one more buckle to have to take my glove off for. ;) Every once in awhile I come across one whose head is just not the right shape for a drop. They might get a flash. I've not really found many good flashes though that hold their shap to stay appropriately where they belong without being very tight. Very tight is not my goal. Until the mice ate it, I had a figure eight too. It's about the individual.

[slc2]

"the barns that never wrap, ever, have uncanny luck at keeping a full barn of sound horses. "

The implication being that wraps injure horses? Or cause 'problems' and make horses lame?

I can show you just as many barns where the opposite is true - the lame horses don't wear wraps and never did.

I think people can get awful presumptive about their choices ('I wrap and that's better', or 'I don't wrap and that's better'), or a little too shrill if someone simply likes to use polos, for example, because they like how they look.

I don't think polos or boots are a big deal either way, either good OR bad (except for protecting from blows, flying debris and interference). Just as the wraps don't actually support the tendons, they can't actually cause injuries (except, see below) - the injuries, problems were there, most likely, before the wraps.

As for injuries, yes. There are some remote possibilities of wraps injuring horse's legs. But I don't feel it's in the way suggested in some posts - by some process they're just 'bad', and ruin tendons, either by being too hot or simply because they are present.

I would be careful of using dirty boots or polos (esp fleece boots), though, since a thorn or other debris can work into them and then under the skin.

It isn't actually BAD for tendons to be warm. In fact, it can very well be good for them, especially before and during exercise. Ideally, tendons muscles and ligaments are warm before and during exercise, and cooled after to avoid filling.

There are people who say that it's possible to 'cord' a tendon with an improperly applied bandage/wrap. I think it's hard to do that with a polo as they are usually very soft and stretchy, and that injury is possible with less forgiving wraps applied over cotton, say. But they would have to be applied very improperly.

But it is possible to apply a bandage so unevenly, or so tightly with incorrect padding, that one sees an at least somewhat permanent bump or lump on the tendon. They're called 'bandage bows', but I have yet to see a real, disabling bow caused by anything other than a typical injury (speed, twisting motion, etc).

There is also the (remote) possibility that the bandage could come undone, and the horse trip or fall over it, or it pull and bear on the tendons when it comes down. I used to see alot of eventers stitch any wraps they put on before cross country, to keep them secure.

It's arguable that many polos are on so loose they couldn't possibly either cause damage OR support a tendon! I do see alot of very loose wraps, especially polos. I have seen polos come loose and unwrap, but if I remember right, no really serious accidents due to a wrap coming loose, though I do think it's very possible.

Flashes, wraps, most accessories are useful if used properly and selected properly. Many people probably choose equipment without clearly knowing what it's for or even needing it, but it's doubtful that ever causes any harm either.

[Perfect Pony]

It isn't actually BAD for tendons to be warm. In fact, it can very well be good for them, especially before and during exercise.

Here we go again with your all knowing pronouncements. In fact, after posting on this thread I started to do some actual research, and there is research out there that says that heat can impact tendons negatively. I would rather be safe than sorry, I can see nothing positive about over heating my horses legs during work.

[Dianna]

Here is a little different point of view:

While it is true that boots (in general) don't provide support, they are good for avoiding silly wacks that can come about. Yep, any horse that steps on himself ... but, let's face it, a horse learning their balance (in dressage) still has to deal with the rider's body and movement as well.

One of our younger horses (and very let down - physically) wears boots to protect him from whacking himself.... which as he gets stronger will be less and issue, but, for me, safety first ... also, if the horse due to weakness and lack of coordination of body and mind and in carrying a rider is constantly stinging himself, exactly how happy do you think they will be.

With regard to suspensory type boots .. they don't support, but the most certainly do restrict the full range of motion in the fetlock which initially is beneficial to not overworking the suspensory apparatus .. while the larger muscle groups strengthen which will help the suspensory do its job.

Let's face it, also, the argument that 23 out of 24 hours they are without support boots ... they are also without the extra added weight of rider and tack and mental stress of being worked and limited.

[dwblover]

I don't use the SMB type "suspensory strap" support boots because I do believe that supporting the tendons isn't a great idea. However, I do use polos and I especially love the dressage sport boots. They only protect the legs/tendons from brushes, horse stepping on himself, etc. They don't offer support. I do use them all the time. It's too easy for a horse to accidentally clip himself, and in my opinion they certainly do protect against those types of injuries. I think the dressage boots do a better job of it than the polos however.

[slc2]

Well, I'm not someone who insists horses must always wear boots or wraps, but I aos don't go around insisting they should NOT, either. My only idea is to be realistic about them and use them when necessary. Oh - and I do believe there is quite a lot of traditional folklore going around about boots and wraps.

I read many opinions on the internet that boots cause heat and are bad for healthy tendons, also that horses become 'dependent on boots', but can't find any reviewed, independent-of-product research that even slightly supports either idea.

I also don't believe that boots on horse's legs actually raise the temperature of the legs that much, any more than any other piece of tack does. I do believe incorrectly fitted or applied boots can rub a horse's legs and that is a problem.

I don't believe that warmth from a wrap or boot can possibly be compared to the warmth that accompanies inflammation and is coming from inside a joint or injured body structure. The two simply aren't the same. I think that would be a flaw in logic - that the two have anything to do with each other r interact with eachother. One is due to a cellular body (internal) process and they have really nothing to do with each other. If there is an actual injury causing inflammation, ice or cooling is needed for that, and is more therapeutic, but no warm boot is going to cause an internal inflammatory process to begin, or to worsen it.

It's quite common practice on trotting tracks to keep horses covered with a wool cooler, even in the middle of the summer, to keep their muscles and tendons warm, when they go back on the track again (they often go back 3 times) their muscles and tendons are warm and they are supposed to have less chance of injury, which follows along with all the sports trainers I ever worked with (we wore full length wool tights til it was eighty degrees, then we were allowed to take them off). If the horse continues to sweat that is considered to be about right (so I was told at the track some years ago). So I'm a reasonable person, if you can show me something that contradicts all the sportsmedicine advice about warming up for athletics, I'll be your biggest fan.

[Kathy Johnson]

Here is something I learned in karate and it's stood me in good stead. In the very beginning, some people wore cumbersome pads when sparring. Our coach pulled those off immediately. He said, "if it doesn't sting, you're just going to keep doing it wrong." Taking the pads off certainly quickened our reaction time. People quit senseless "clashing" immediately.

So, if a young horse is going to whack himself because he is clumsy and/or lazy, I just let him do it. He rarely does it a second time. No one's ever hurt themselves seriously, and it they were going to, it would cut right through a wrap.

If the young horse is going to whack himself because he has poor conformation, wings in front and interferes, travels too close behind, etc, I will wrap him to prevent recurring injury and scarring. But, I also have to look at that young horse closely to see if muscling can help correct that type of movement, or he may need to look for another career.

As for comparing a horse athlete to a human athlete in terms of warm-ups, horses are physiologically very different than humans. Due to their need for flight or fight, they must be able to go from sleeping to full speed in less than a second, without the need to "warm up" muscles and tendons.

I agree it's a matter of each individual horse, both for wrapping and for the flash. I also agree there are a lot of marketing gizmos.

[pintopiaffe]

Kathy, I do agree with what you're saying... BUT... :p

There is also a certain bit of proprioception change that might (probably does) occur with boots or wraps. Like a dancer with leg warmers, there is a certain awareness. Warmth & slight compression can help an aged horse with aches. Awareness can help a young horse avoid hitting... Perhaps I'm stretching? I'm not so sure...

As someone with a semi-recovering knee injury, I can very safely say that compression & heat help. They help prevent me from overdoing, and help bring down edema, and help make it not ache so much. I have to extrapolate that similar neoprene boots might help my guy with his old injury? Certainly at times he goes better with a boot on that leg--whether it's just the reduction in edema, or the compression, or the combination... I dunno. There's a noticeable difference.

Maybe it's just pavlovian. A horse associates wraps with 'work' and settles into it better/pays more attention.

To me, it's a little like the argument for or against gloves. One teacher/hero of mine asks if you'd ever play piano in gloves? No, of course not, it would dull your feel. Another teacher/hero mentions that the gloves give you a certain awareness of your hands and a feeling *different* from other daily activities, and therefore are A Good Thing.

<shrugs> I guess I'm saying the boot/polo argument could basically go the same way????

Maybe not. I'll go drink some wine now... :winkgrin:

[Dianna]

I for one would rather address lazy and clumsy without setting a horse up for possible injury - no matter how unrealistic it may be that any real injury will be sustained. Most clumsy or lazy horses are unbalanced and uncertain in where and how to place their feet, so I don't see using negative reinforcement as a means to an end... but that is just me.

With regard to the fact that horses are prey animals and therefor "in the wild" they have to possibly be able to go from a relaxed state to full speed in less than a second, without the need to "warm up" muscles and tendons.... impacts properly warming up a horse for work that is going to be long-term, consistent and arduous in nature. If the concept that they are able to run at full speed at a moment's notice was true, then why is it that horses (or many of them) warm up and look better as the work progresses (barring any underlying injury)?

[Dianna]

I haven't done a lot of "research" on this topic, but would love to see any "actual research" where it says that "heat can impact tendons negatively" (in the situations about which we all speak)

Yes, if a horse's legs are hot to start out with ... you are going to be looking for injury or something brewing soon to be an injury ... but on a perfectly healthy horse in training, I am not certain that the heat caused or created by wearing properly fitted boots/wraps are or could be a negative ... of course, if you were to leave the horse standing around in the boots without properly cooling them down, then I wouldn't be suprised to lean that problems could (perhaps) arise.

Perfect Pony, I hate to impose, but, could you please provide us with links to the various research papers/outlets you have found as it relates to training purposes and not to injuries which are existing?

[Windy Willow]

Heres a link to some info some
.http://www.petalia.com.au/Templates/StoryTemplate_Process.cfm?specie=Horses&story_no=1586

I just glanced at it and did not read it. I did glance at the top paragraph and third paragraph which seem to contradict each other.It does mention bandaging used as support.

[Dianna]

I just did a quick read .. thank you for the link. One of my pet peeves with articles like this is when statements labeled as fact are not supported in any specific way. Also, their recent studies are over 14 years old and thus I'm not certain how reliable they could be ... but to me, the article gives a good rule of thumb ... take care of your horse's legs ..

The article said:

... recent studies (Goodship et al. 1993) suggest there may be a correlation between an increase in lower limb heat generated through a workout, the use of bandages and the development of Bowed Tendons. It has been suggested that the central core of the tendon undergoes degeneration as the temperature of the lower limb rises according to the stress load of the workout, and excessive heat retained after exercise if bandages are not removed, may predispose the tendon to subsequent breakdown. (Emphasis Added)

But in any instance, after a horse is worked ... their legs should be checked and cooled down ... even if no bandages are applied.

[Kathy Johnson]

I for one would rather address lazy and clumsy without setting a horse up for possible injury - no matter how unrealistic it may be that any real injury will be sustained.

Bandaging or booting for riding will not prevent any except the most minor of nicks. I have seen polo ponies slice right through the bandages and sever a tendon. On the other side of the equation, I have seen bandages wrapped too tight and bow a tendon. I have seen them come partially unwrapped in the middle of the ride. The horse stepped on it and fell. There are two sides to the dangers, so I see wrapping as setting a horse up for possible injury, no matter how unrealistic it may be.

Most clumsy or lazy horses are unbalanced and uncertain in where and how to place their feet, so I don't see using negative reinforcement as a means to an end... but that is just me. I am not sure that this is negative reinforcement in the psychological sense of the word. To me, it's logical consequences. If you don't watch where you put your feet, it stings. There is no outside source providing a stimulus or a reward. It's up to the horse. For the same reason I often don't boot jumpers because it's much better for them to feel the fence and be careful, than to think it doesn't hurt if they hit one. If they think it wont hurt, they become sloppy, dull and dangerous.

The thought of proprioception is an interesting one, and one I've played with on a horse with neurological issues. We've all seen horses wearing shipping boots for the first time (I am all for shipping boots, unless it is long distance hauling where they can cause more harm if they come undone). Anyway, the shipping boots do cause the horse to become more aware of his legs, for a short period of time. It does wear off. I imagine that wraps and boots, like the girth, may cause awareness for a minute or so, then the horse forgets about them, the same way we forget about our undergarments.

why is it that horses (or many of them) warm up and look better as the work progresses (barring any underlying injury)?

It is the length of time riders take to put them on the aids. You can look at the normal horse (barring underlying injury) on the longe line. Within 5 minutes of cantering or trotting on the longe, he's moving as well as he's going to move for the duration of the session, and often at his best. If the rider intercedes and does something else to help him move better (working in hand, tightening sidereins, putting him more on the aids), he will move better. But, his muscles are warmed up.

Under saddle, you see the same thing: the horse moves better as the rider puts him more on the aids. It's the reason a trainer can often get on a horse and have them looking like magic in 30 seconds, while the rider has been struggling for 45 minutes (or 6 years). The trainer is able to put the horse on the aids more quickly, which improves the horse's way of going.

That the horse physically needs a 20-30 minute warmup before starting real work is another one of those myths SLC talks about. If it were so, horses would not have survived in the wild so long. Every time they dashed at full speed away from a lion and ran 10 miles, they would pull a tendon or tear a muscle and the lion would eat them.

I believe it came about through personifying the horse. Just because humans need such and such, does not always means horses do. Some things cross over for horses and humans; I just don't think this is one of them.

Long warmups are more often for the rider, as riders need to relax, get in tune and figure out what they are asking of the horse.

[Dianna]

Sorry, Kathy. All very well formed and written answers, but, I'll err to the side of caution because they are based on my experiences, not yours.

I have had a horse catch themselves significantly so that the bruise lead to swelling ... I have had a young horse that forged significantly so that his hind hooves were painfully bruised ... and yes, his feet were done properly, believe it or not, some horses are significantly weak that they will still forge whether done correctly or not.

Bandage bows are hard (one almost needs to try) to acquire and are most certainly always caused by ignores or inattentiveness... the one thing I have always felt is, that every owner needs to learn to bandage their horses properly ... minimally.

I don't use pain as a training method or as a consequence or punishment for a horse that simply doesn't know where to put their legs. Sorry, I have reahabbed too many injuries that can be avoided with a little care and common sense.

One of the biggest problem people have with horses is comparing to humans .. another is comparing our horses to the horses of yester-year or to the wild horses.... each horse has to be treated as an individual and the mind has to stay open to all types of management protocols and procedures ... blanket statements are what help to keep vets in business and shorten the productive career of many a horse.

I'm sorry, I believe all horses require a warmup and the only reason that they are able to magically look better and take x amount of time is that their muscles warm up, their brain warms up, their heart settles into the work ... yep, a trainer can get on and trigger muscle memory and mind memory and "make it happen" quicker, but does that make it safe for the horse or good for their long-time usefulness/competitiveness?

[rabicon]

As a vet at UGA told me once, the boots are for our own support than the horses ;) Its a mind game that these companies have that make you think they are so great for support but in reality they do nothing in the terms of support. Now they will help if your horse clips himself or what not so I use them for schooling on my guy but thats about it.

[Kathy Johnson]

All very well formed and written answers, but, I'll err to the side of caution because they are based on my experiences, not yours.

Precisely! I would not try to convince people to use or to not use bandages. My point is that there are dangers on both sides, and random wrapping can have its dangers too. So, personally, I err on the side of caution to only wrap when I feel it's absolutely necessary, usually when my vet suggests it, not for appearances. People should think about when and why they wrap, not just because everyone in the barn/magazines does it.

I have said before that warmups are very individual and private. No one warm up works for all. I am not trying to convince people not to warm up. I just feel they should be warming up for the right reasons, for the good of their own horse, not taking a cookie cutter warmup off the internet because someone once had to wear wool tights when bicycling.

[Valentina_32926]

I'm showing third schooling 4th level. I do not school in any types of leg wraps or boots - what I show in is what I school in (tack wise).

My arena has decent footing - when it's dry it gets deep so I set up an arena on the grass in my pastures until we get rain.

[Ambrey]

By the way, "negative reinforcement" is not the same as punishment. Negative reinforcement is removing an unpleasant stimulus to reward good behavior, not presenting unpleasant stimulus to decrease the frequency of bad behavior.

Just wanted to clear that up, because I know you're all really concerned about using proper psychological terms :lol:.

[CatOnLap]

and yet, the vets at Pullman in Washington State did a whole big study around the mid 1990's comparing polos to standard wraps and to tendon boots and sports medicine boots, and proved that the sports medicine boots (the Professional Choice and the Les Vogt boots with suspensory straps were tested) DO provide a degree of tendon support not found in unwrapped or wrapped legs, and therefore recommended them in rehabbing tendon injuries. They also showed that the supportive boots reduce concsussive injury to a small degree. As Pintopiaffe has found with her own injury, compression and warmth are helpful when you hurt. But I was always taught you take all wraps off and rinse the legs after work, so the sweat and dirt do not dry on the hair and any little stones/sand that work their way under the boot/wrap, can be freed.

About every 10th time I wash my polo bandages, I find one has been "scalped"- and has holes and rubs and is no longer useable. But that's why I use them. Otherwise, it would be a cut and bloody fetlock or pastern. As for shipping, I've had enough horses step on a heel or coronet in the trailer, that bell boots are my friend. Shipping boots too, even on long journeys. The kind that velcro on and go over the hocks, since they stay up better, the velcro tears off rather than bunching and constricting if they do fall down. I do not use bandage wraps in a trailer. But the boots take 2 minutes to put on and have saved me more than their price in vet bills and vetrap and such, from minor trailering "accidents".

[Dianna]

I have always felt that what we are seeing isn't actually "support" but more of a restriction of the full range of motion of the fetlocks... in any case, it can be very helpful if you are coming off a layup and the horse's larger muscle groups aren't properly muscled up.

For the record, Kathy, your posts really do come across as warm up not being necessary. I'm glad you rectified that ... interestingly, while my WB who was being legged up in Florida by my ex hubby who is a TB person, my ex took the time to relate to me that it took far more warm up for my big WB than for his TB's ... and that the entire work session (in order to actually accomplish the development of true fitness) was far more extensive in my WB than in the TB's he had ... after which he actually took on another WB for the same purpose (legging it up in anticipation of its dressage education) and found the same to be true. Of course, that is only 2 horses out of hundreds of thousands, but, for him, it was 100% of the WB's that he worked with ... need far more warm up and structured excerise to develop fitness than their TB counterparts.

[Kathy Johnson]

Conditioning is indeed a whole nother ball of wax. Certainly, horses with fast twitch muscles need a far different conditioning program than those with slow twitch muscles.

Yes, Ambrey, you are right about the terms. I just couldn't make my caffeine starved brain wrap itself around the idea of whether or not removing wraps was removing a negative stimulus or reward. You keep working on that :)

[Perfect Pony]

fwiw, I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, just expressing my own opinion and why I chose not to use boots or wraps. I also specifically bought a horse with good feet and straight legs that does not interfere. She has on a couple occasions nicked herself, but half the time it's in her stall, and the one time she cut her ankle open she was turned on with boots ON! She put her leg through a fence to get grass and sliced her leg open right where the boot did not cover..

And the point about horses learning to be more careful without them? It's 100% true. My mare was a sloppy, lazy jumper until I took the boots off. I now jump her bare legged and she doesn't touch a rail!

[SisterToSoreFoot]

My ex-eventer TB who became a 2nd level dressage horse at 18 did not wear any boots, wraps, whatever the last 8 years of his life. He was totally sound and his legs were always tight. I doubt very much, despite sale pitches, that anything superficially stuck to a leg can make that much difference in terms of support, and there is some danger of injury from bad wrapping etc. Put a white leg wrap on your own leg and see if you feel "supported" or just itchy and restricted. I can see the point of boots for protection, but not for support. Four white wraps on a dressage horse is a statement of style--"look at my dressage horse!!" and little more (but even I like the look of them, and would use them for photo-shoot type deals).

[Ambrey]

Yes, Ambrey, you are right about the terms. I just couldn't make my caffeine starved brain wrap itself around the idea of whether or not removing wraps was removing a negative stimulus or reward. You keep working on that :)

You know, there's not a whole lot of good I can do in this world, so I have to do what I can ;)

Some people pick up trash or recycle, I correct people's usage of obscure learning theory terms as though it really matters. :winkgrin:

[Dixon]

Windy Willow, I love your hunt photos. Beautiful horses, hounds and terrain. I can't help but highlight the fact that the horses have nothing on their legs, despite their cross-country work over jumps and all. So even in a discipline where knocks and whacks seem more likely, the horses are expected to go without, and appear none-the-worse for it.

For what it is worth, George Morris counseled against too much reliance on standing wraps at least, on the theory that horses' legs can become dependent on the support and won't stay as tight without wraps after a while.

I am curious how long your dressage trainer has been working with your former field hunter. A classic training approach takes quite a long time.

[Windy Willow]

Windy Willow, I love your hunt photos. Beautiful horses, hounds and terrain. I can't help but highlight the fact that the horses have nothing on their legs, despite their cross-country work over jumps and all. So even in a discipline where knocks and whacks seem more likely, the horses are expected to go without, and appear none-the-worse for it.

For what it is worth, George Morris counseled against too much reliance on standing wraps at least, on the theory that horses' legs can become dependent on the support and won't stay as tight without wraps after a while.

I am curious how long your dressage trainer has been working with your former field hunter. A classic training approach takes quite a long time.



why thank you Dixon about the pictures.

I took him to some schooling dressage shows and did intro and then training on him.I wasnt taking lessons much because I was busy riding my horses that I hunt. His sires bloodlines has produced very talented athletic horses( A half sister was Horse of the year at Devon, they are jumpers. ) Duck Martin in Va.a well known foxhunter had the sire Lord Gaylord out of Sir Gaylord.
Anyhow my friend /trainer couldnt stand it, me not doing anything with him and seeing his potential. We traded services ( I sell stuff for her on ebay) and she started riding him about 6 months ago consistently.( 3times weekly)

She rode him in a small schooling show in early Oct (" R" judge).The judge made the comment she obviously knew what she was doing and asked why he was not futher along.Since then
she has been working him in hand which I find fasinating, Before the show she had said that was something she was going to start doing with him and it was suggested by the judge also, which impressed me.

I have been more interested in dressage I guess because I see my horse doing it and I see how much time it takes to bring along a horse slowly and without rushing. I have a new appreciation .

She is so very "classical" she is very closed minded about whats correct and whats not correct.

The last time she rode with a clinician was in Tampa in 1986! A group of us (her students) went for a George Morris clinic! :) Now thats another whole story! Was great.He could tell SHE was the only dressage rider amongst us.

In March we have signed her and my horse up for her first clinic since then with Axel Steiner .(She's picky who she rides for ..haha)

Sorry so long got carried away......... and have not even mentioned leg support:)