Piaffe/Passage differences: then and now?

[kdow]

I just watched the Robert Dover freestyle video someone pointed out on youtube, as well as the freestyle from 2007 which was linked from that video, and it reminded me of something I've been wondering about after watching some other older GP dressage videos.

I've noticed that the modern piaffe and passage look much 'flashier' in terms of the height the hooves are lifted off the ground- this is particularly noticable in some of the piaffe examples, where in the older videos the horses appear to be just lifting the back hoof off the ground, and then placing it down again. (And this is in tests which are quality tests- gold medal winning, etc.)

I was just wondering when and how that came about- is it just a difference in the breeds or breeding? Or is it related to a difference in training? Which is more 'correct'?

(One thing I did notice is that often the older tests, while not necessarily so 'flashy' with leg movement, seem to be more solid in terms of maintaining a regular rhythm and moving smoothly from one thing to another. Also, the extended trots frequently look better to me in the older tests- less like the horse is just flinging his frong legs out in front of him.)

[slc2]

Respectfully, I don't agree that this is what has happened. Different horses and different riders and trainers have always produced different piaffes - there is a lot of natural variation in how horses piaffe, and always has been. Klimke was a master of having a horse very supple and rhythmic, each horse/rider has and had their strengths and weaknesses.

Different riders, trainers horses have always been different, I think that recently, with stretching and getting the back more supple, and more emphasis on freedom for the horse and athleticism, rather than just a very flat back, as was so common in the past, it's possible to have horses have more impulsion and more range of motion.

[lstevenson]

You are correct in your observations. At the moment it's all about breeding flashy movers. And that flash is hugely rewarded over correct training. It's a real shame.

I've got nothing against fancy, great moving horses. But the more average horse with CORRECT TRAINING should be winning over the incorrectly trained flashy moving horse. With the correctly trained flashy horse always coming out on top of course. But unfortunately, when they are flashy it is harder to tell if the training has been incorrect. The horses' movement makes up for it.

[~Freedom~]

You are correct in your observations. At the moment it's all about breeding flashy movers. And that flash is hugely rewarded over correct training. It's a real shame.

I've got nothing against fancy, great moving horses. But the more average horse with CORRECT TRAINING should be winning over the incorrectly trained flashy moving horse. With the correctly trained flashy horse always coming out on top of course. But unfortunately, when they are flashy it is harder to tell if the training has been incorrect. The horses' movement makes up for it.

Couldn't agree more. I have even heard it said that dressage 20 years ago is not "real" dressage. I have seen it written that the tests of 20/25 years ago were easy and didn't really do dressage up to today's standards.

First this is poppycock and second you simply cannot compare. Circumstances were different,tests were different,the horses used were different.

People like this either had no idea what was asked for or if they did either never competed at the highest level or never could compete. Most of what I see today is incorrect according to the basic principles of dressage and I personally hope that a turn around to good dressage is in the works when an extended trot does not look like a Spanish walk at trot.

[yaya]

The biggest difference I see in the piaffes of the past and those now is that the horse did a lot more movement back then. Meaning it looked a lot more like a true trot in place, with the entire horse's body moving up and down as the horse shifted from diagonal pair to diagonal pair, with both front and rear legs lifting. It was more like there was actual suspension in the gait.

Nowadays, they look more rooted to the ground and just shuffling the feet around. It doesn't look like an actual trot in place, just a lifting of the legs (usually just the front legs). The tempo quickens too when in piaffe instead of staying in the trot tempo they were in going into it.

[slc2]

That observation puzzles me. All the research that's been done indicates there is no suspension in piaffe - any piaffe - past or present.

Though the horse can bob up and down at piaffe if he lacks strength, suppleness and training...any impression of the horse's body going up and down in piaffe would indicate incorrectness, actually.

[Tonja]

slc2 wrote:
All the research that's been done indicates there is no suspension in piaffe - any piaffe - past or present.
Apparently not all piaffes from the past were included in those studies. The videos, “The Spanish Riding School, the First 400 Years” and “The School of Horsemanship with Egon von Neindorff”, show piaffes with clear impulsion and moments of suspension (all four hooves off of the ground, bearing no weight).

[snoopy]

That observation puzzles me. All the research that's been done indicates there is no suspension in piaffe - any piaffe - past or present.

Though the horse can bob up and down at piaffe if he lacks strength, suppleness and training...any impression of the horse's body going up and down in piaffe would indicate incorrectness, actually.


I would agree with this.....the body may "bob" but there is little if any REAL suspension in piaffe. Also it is interesting to note that there are those who expect a correct Piaffe to be rooted or in place when actually the horse IS actually covering ground and moving SLIGHTLY forward.

[slc2]

Tis better to creep than to back up, LOL.

[snoopy]

which we are seeing in some forms more often these days. Horses tend to lose balance when not allowed to travel SLIGHTLY forward in piaffe...too much sitting on the hind legs and whoops!!!!

[Tonja]

Too much sitting on the hind legs is not what causes the piaffe to step backward. Too much sitting on the hind legs can lead to levade. It’s the rider blocking the horse’s energy that usually causes a horse to step backward in the ‘piaffe’.

[egontoast]

All this nostalgia for the past is interesting.

I'm a big fan of of people like Klimke but not of everyone from way back when. Here, try this, photoshop Anky's head on the photographs in Podhajsky's book ( maybe start with the extended trot photo, don't have the page # handy, but it was chosen for the book so it's supposed to be good, right? I mean, it's not a candid photo snapped by eurodressage trying to get an unflattering photo, right?

and do the same photoshop as well with the photographs in Herberman's book,

now squint your eyes and then try to honestly say they show much more stellar work than everyone since.

[Tonja]

egontoast wrote:
All this nostalgia for the past is interesting.

I'm a big fan of of people like Klimke but not of everyone from way back when. Here, try this, photoshop Anky's head on the photographs in Podhajsky's book ( maybe start with the extended trot photo, don't have the page # handy, but it was chosen for the book so it's supposed to be good, right? I mean, it's not a candid photo snapped by eurodressage trying to get an unflattering photo, right?

and do the same photoshop as well with the photographs in Herberman's book,

now squint your eyes and then try to honestly say they show much more stellar work than everyone since.
Are you honestly saying that you can’t see the difference between the classical work of Meixner, Lindenbauer, Handler, Podhajsky, Watjen, Neindorff, Herbermann and modern Olympic competition dressage?! :eek: The Olympic performances don’t even come close to demonstrating the calm, connected, deeply engaged, harmonious, balanced work of the classical masters. :no:

[slc2]

Some of them do, some of them don't. Such overgeneralizations are ridiculous.

But keep in mind, NONE of those people had to cope with competing their horse in such a completely horse-unfriendly, horrible venue. The last half way good for horses Olympic venue was in Atlanta. The Olympic venues have been really horrible lately, and many horses have been very bothered by the noise. The only way to get a horse to not be tense in such a venue is to work the crap out of them til they're so exhausted they can hardly lift their heads up. That is not done at that level in dressage, because it is not done, aside from the fact the test would be so completely horrid.

I've seen at other times the 'Olympic' horses that are criticized for tension, lolloping along on a loose rein doing 40 perfect one's or piaffing with their eyes shut sleepy, while the rider talks on a cell phone. There's a point at which some people have to stop pushing their own pseudo dressage training and open up their eyes.

[snoopy]

Too much sitting on the hind legs is not what causes the piaffe to step backward. Too much sitting on the hind legs can lead to levade. It’s the rider blocking the horse’s energy that usually causes a horse to step backward in the ‘piaffe’.


agreed...you explained it better than me. This is what I meant to say with regards to "blocking" and allowing the horse to keep "foreward" movement. One has to be very careful when asking so much from the hind legs and not allowing with the front or the horse ends up where it should not be....either up in the air (levade)...or the horse steps side ways or back to keep his feet under him and regain some balance.
An interesting example of this is when horses will penalized for stepping back in the halt...it was addressed at GDF one year and I believe that "madame M" made the comment that in the halt if the hind end came too far under and the horse "stepped back" SLIGHTLY to regain his balance that it should not infact be seen as a fault...but rather the horse was looking to distribute his weight evenly on all four feet....in halt
For the horse do do this whilst in Piaffe (which my understanding is to be ridden in a VERY slight forward movement of the feet) that a step back or sideways is most definately a fault as we are losing forward momentum, unlike the halt which is well...not. We may ride forward "to" halt...but haut itself should be immobile...and there in lies the question of the horse moving a leg to regain balance ..therefor not be punished..and one that does not want to stand still.

[kdow]

Respectfully, I don't agree that this is what has happened. Different horses and different riders and trainers have always produced different piaffes - there is a lot of natural variation in how horses piaffe, and always has been. Klimke was a master of having a horse very supple and rhythmic, each horse/rider has and had their strengths and weaknesses.


I didn't actually make any statements about why the differences came about, or if they were significant- I was putting forth something I'd observed in a small sample and asking about it so that I can better understand what's going on and what SHOULD be going on.

Also, I did look at more than one horse+rider combo for "old" and "new" dressage- in all of the older videos I watched, the hind legs seemed to be tucked under more, but the hooves not lifted as high as in the more recent examples. I don't know enough about upper level movements to know which is more 'correct' or even what elements one should be looking for in a piaffe- is the height the hoof comes up off the ground even something the judges look at?

I will admit to a generalized distrust of the correctness of modern dressage, based on all the rollkur business, and also my personal impression of some tests which were held up as examples of 'good' current performances and yet look awful to me- which is part of why I'm asking, to get other people's opinions on the subject of which is the 'right' way to be doing this movement.

[see u at x]

I find the OP's post really interesting, because a trainer at my barn has said the exact same thing. She says that a lot of what she sees in upper levels rides just doesn't seem correct to her anymore, period. As someone who is still developing my eye for what is correct and what is not, I get really confused by a lot of what I see. Some people say this is good, other people say that is good. :sigh:

[egontoast]

Are you honestly saying that you can’t see the difference between the classical work of Meixner, Lindenbauer, Handler, Podhajsky, Watjen, Neindorff, Herbermann and modern Olympic competition dressage?


I didn't say that, did I? I'm sure there are differences. Some good , some bad as with all riding. I was talking about some photographs in a couple of books. Unfortunately I can't post photos but I think some people are looking through gauze and dreaming because of the label 'classical'.

I don't think everything that is held up as superior examples of dressage from the past lives up to that claim. jmho

[Tonja]

Slc2 wrote:
But keep in mind, NONE of those people had to cope with competing their horse in such a completely horse-unfriendly, horrible venue. The last half way good for horses Olympic venue was in Atlanta. The Olympic venues have been really horrible lately, and many horses have been very bothered by the noise. The only way to get a horse to not be tense in such a venue is to work the crap out of them til they're so exhausted they can hardly lift their heads up. That is not done at that level in dressage, because it is not done, aside from the fact the test would be so completely horrid.
The training environments for the top Olympic horses are about the best money can buy, to be sure. So the argument that the Olympic performances don’t have the same degree of calmness, connection, engagement, harmony and balance as the classical schools is because the Olympic competition environments are so much harsher doesn’t hold water. The performances are fundamentally different because the training methods are fundamentally different. If the fundamental training of the Olympic horses was classically based then classical qualities would show through.

snoopy wrote:
agreed...you explained it better than me. This is what I meant to say with regards to "blocking" and allowing the horse to keep "foreward" movement. One has to be very careful when asking so much from the hind legs and not allowing with the front or the horse ends up where it should not be....either up in the air (levade)...or the horse steps side ways or back to keep his feet under him and regain some balance.
An interesting example of this is when horses will penalized for stepping back in the halt...it was addressed at GDF one year and I believe that "madame M" made the comment that in the halt if the hind end came too far under and the horse "stepped back" SLIGHTLY to regain his balance that it should not infact be seen as a fault...but rather the horse was looking to distribute his weight evenly on all four feet....in halt
For the horse do do this whilst in Piaffe (which my understanding is to be ridden in a VERY slight forward movement of the feet) that a step back or sideways is most definately a fault as we are losing forward momentum, unlike the halt which is well...not. We may ride forward "to" halt...but haut itself should be immobile...and there in lies the question of the horse moving a leg to regain balance ..therefor not be punished..and one that does not want to stand still.
I see what you’re saying, snoopy. I agree with them in that there is a difference between a horse that won’t stand still at the halt and a horse that steps back due to imbalance. However, I see both of those as faults. Haunches that are coming too far under are not engaged and the horse steps back due to imbalance. I see imbalance as a fault.

kdow wrote:
I didn't actually make any statements about why the differences came about, or if they were significant- I was putting forth something I'd observed in a small sample and asking about it so that I can better understand what's going on and what SHOULD be going on.

Also, I did look at more than one horse+rider combo for "old" and "new" dressage- in all of the older videos I watched, the hind legs seemed to be tucked under more, but the hooves not lifted as high as in the more recent examples. I don't know enough about upper level movements to know which is more 'correct' or even what elements one should be looking for in a piaffe- is the height the hoof comes up off the ground even something the judges look at?

I will admit to a generalized distrust of the correctness of modern dressage, based on all the rollkur business, and also my personal impression of some tests which were held up as examples of 'good' current performances and yet look awful to me- which is part of why I'm asking, to get other people's opinions on the subject of which is the 'right' way to be doing this movement.
The piaffe is a display of perfect balance. In the piaffe the back relaxes and elastically pulsates so that the hind legs can be encouraged to bend deeply and work more forward toward the horse’s center of gravity. The base of support is shortened (by the hind legs stepping forward, not the front legs angling back) to the point that, when viewed from the side, the center of gravity of the rider is directly over the center of the horse’s base of support (a vertical line through the rider intersects the center of the horse’s base of support). Shortening the base of support shifts more weight to the haunches. The horse’s spine naturally slopes downward from hips to base of the neck but in piaffe, the deeply bent haunches cause the spine to lower posteriorly so that the point of the hip actually becomes lower than the joint between the first thoracic (back) and last cervical (neck) vertebra (C7/T1). This rearward spinal tilt shifts more weight to the haunches. The bending of the haunches, the shortened base of support and the posteriorly tilted spine create an elastic tension in the back which further lightens the forehand. This tension brings the horse’s neck up into a graceful arch, with the poll balanced as the highest point and the head hanging from the upward reaching neck naturally by gravity. When the neck is stretched upward and the poll is carried high, poised like a ballet dancer, the heavy weight of the head and neck are shifted toward the haunches, making it easier for the back and haunches to lift the forehand and the hind legs to carry the weight. As the horse’s strength and relaxation are refined, the added weight on the haunches causes the haunches bend even further, which again shortens the base of support and further lowers the spine posteriorly, bringing the head and neck into a more balanced position, which places more weight on the haunches until the forehand can be completely lifted off the ground. It’s a matter of physics. There is a more detailed explanation with illustrations at http://www.ridingart.com/balance.htm#Lightening_the_Forehand

Kathy Johnson’s links also provide some excellent material for eye training for the piaffe . Compare http://www.kathyjohnsondressage.com/piaffeset2.jpg and http://www.kathyjohnsondressage.com/piaffeset1.jpg

Here is more eye training info: http://www.ridingart.com/visual-points.htm

Especially useful for eye training are the 2 videos I referred to above.