What's making me tilt forward?

[MelantheLLC]

I have a new horse after retiring my old guy that I rode for 10+ years.

I never had a problem with tilting forward; could easily sit vertical or slightly behind and feel secure on Retiree.

I've only been riding New Guy for a few weeks. I've been trying a couple of different saddles because the Albion I'd just bought for Retiree is way too narrow for New Guy who is very buff and muscular just behind the withers.

I have video of myself when I tried out New Guy. I do not tilt forward in that video. I also have video of my first lesson after purchasing New Guy--and I am tilting forward.

Once I saw myself in the video, now I can feel clearly that I am doing it. And I can't stop doing it. He has a much bigger trot than I am used to and so I assumed that was the issue, learning to cope with his trot. But after a couple of weeks now, I feel that I'm "getting" his trot, but I'm still tilting forward.

I am rising as if I were standing in the stirrups at the walk--the way you would have to balance yourself more forward over the pommel in order not to fall backwards. My legs are back and my torso is tipped forward. It's not horribly forward, not fetal or anything, but it's there.

This is NOT the way I used ride. And yet I can't seem to fix it for more than a stride. Since it's happening in three different saddles, I assumed it wasn't the saddle.

Today, though, I was thinking--could New Guy's big shoulders be tilting all of these saddles back just enough to cause me to balance forward? I do it in my old saddle, which I didn't do in same saddle on Retiree.

The reason I'm wondering is because I am trialing a used saddle that fits New Guy well, and I thought fit me ok, but now I'm getting doubtful. It doesn't seem to me that it should feel so difficult to sit vertically.

[rizzodm]

I tilt forward when I ride a certain horse. He has the most rough trot that I have ever rode. My trainer even says I will never ride a trot so bad as his. When I have a lesson on him that is one of my problems is tilting forward but on the mare I usually ride I don't have this problem. Sometimes I don't want to ride him because of this but I wont become a better rider if I avoid him. I look forward to what others have to say about this.

Dawn

[Perfect Pony]

I had a terrible problem when I first started dressage and thought it was all me. I had the saddle I bought reflocked to fit my mare and it radically changed my position.

What saddle were you riding in when you tried the horse? If you don't have problems on your old horse, and didn't have problems when you tried the horse, my guess is the saddles you are riding him in don't fit the horse or you properly.

The problem with my saddle is actually that it was too wide and was pommel low, pitching me forward. My mare has very wide shoulders, so it needed to be flocked narrower at the whithers, with a wider tree for her shoulders.

[slc2]

A fresh pair of eyes really helps.

New horses feel so different - even the slightest difference in their conformation and gait kind of is magnified in the first few months. We have so many ah...er...'visceral' habits, that we aren't aware of, that are just what our muscles are used to feeling, and it takes time to 'unteach' those muscles - just time in the saddle, and a good eye can help.

I do think you may be right about the saddle - a meatier shoulder can push the saddle around or push the front up. With the bigger shoulder horse sometimes the saddle has to be placed further back than it would be on a horse with less bulk on the shoulder.

Riding a bigger gaited horse is a challenge. People DO tend to lean forward, and to get their leg pushed forward on a bigger mover, or get their leg more unstable, which can also cause people to lean forward to compensate. One tends to stiffen up, tighten up, often without really realizing it.

Loosening up those muscles really helps, especially the hips lower back. Yoga, stretching and a warmup routine can help. Much of the solution is counter intuitive - let one self get flopped around and loosened up, drop the stirrups, get buffeted around a bit, it helps loosen the muscles up and sink one down in the saddle, especially if the muscles are allowed to get tired or leg lifts are done to prevent one from latching on too hard with the legs.

[goeslikestink]

more than likely the saddle doesnt fit him, leahter saddles shuld be flocked once a year
and be mantianed hes proababy a wide fit saddle
also look here http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=3683523#post3683523

and look to making sure your stirrups are the correct lenght and when cleaning them you change them over so one side doesnt get more wear than the other side
as not havng the correct lenght affects your position ie tilting

as each and every saddle is different so the lenght of stirrups should be checked before you get on
here in uk its the one the 1st basic things one does

[J-Lu]

My first thoughts: Saddle.

It might fit him fine but the balance might be off for you. Usually saddles on big-shouldered guys like you describe tilt you back and put your legs forward. This one sounds like it's sitting low on his shoulders/withers so is tilting you forward. Who knows? But my guess is that if you didn't ride like this before, you don't normally ride like this. Saddle. They don't call saddle fitting "saddle hell" for nothing. Good luck!! J.

[pintopiaffe]

How wide is wide?

The wider the horse, the more loose and open your hips must be. And that is not easy. If the hips are tight, the leg goes back and the upper body goes forward to compensate. The more relaxed, stable and open the hips, the more the upper body can weeble around without affecting the leg at all.

Saddle can help alleviate it by being the right waist and width, (and stirrup bar position) for your body... but if horse is significantly wider, or, more importantly, wider ON TOP vs. more pear shaped, it is a matter of time and getting those hips to open. And open. And open more.

Don't force it if you think that's the issue. TRUST ME on that. :dead: Be patient.

[poor-horse]

Did your twins grow? Sorry, just had to.....didn't mean to offend. :lol:

[MelantheLLC]

Did your twins grow? Sorry, just had to.....didn't mean to offend. :lol:

Well if you mean the ones below the waist!

(Actually I've lost a few pounds since I got him.)

Seriously, thanks these are all good points. There's probably some of all these factors at work. I looked back at the trial video, and I am NOT leaning forward. That was in the seller's saddle. As I recall my stirrups felt long and in that vid my legs are a bit in front of me actually. It had a deep seat and big kneerolls--whereas the others I've been using are not so deep and don't have humongous knee rolls.

I did shorten my stirrups one hole after I rode him once or twice at home, which made me feel more secure with the big trot. That could be a contributing factor since I have notoriously stiff ankles.

He's not really wider than my retiree under my leg; in fact my old saddle kinda fit him and he feels very familiar in his barrel width. But my retiree had classic TB withers with a dip behind them.

I think I will try setting this trial saddle a little further back on him, and see if it will stay there. He's very short-backed--I just thought of that. So between the Fabio shoulders and the croup there's not a lot of room for maneuvering.

J-Lu, if it's the saddle, I think it's tilting back, and I'm tilting forward to compensate. I don't feel thrown forward, I feel more as if I'm trying not to fall back and get left behind.

What about stirrup bar position? Too far forward on this saddle maybe?

His trot is lovely; it's just bigger and more powerful than I'm used to. I do feel tired in my lower back and psoas after I ride him, so my hips are probably struggling to accomodate. I don't sit yet except for transitions. But at least I don't feel like I'm riding a pogo stick now, so I must be following him a little better.

[slc2]

'I feel like I'm trying not to get left behind'

That's exactly the bigger mover thing.

[friesian4me]

I had a similar problem last winter when I backed my new horse. Not only did I lean forward but my legs would slide back too far. What helped me was shortening my stirrups by 2 holes (he is more slab sided) and getting a saddle which is more forward balanced with large thigh blocks. He has a short back, large shoulders and the saddle needs to be placed back more so the saddle with a more forward balance works. It also takes awhile to get used to a new horse's movement.

[pintopiaffe]

HUGE, high thighblocks helped me until I was flexible and strong enough to ride my stupid-wide, fairly big moving little horse.

These days I can *almost* ride him in a plain flap Passier. But not quite. I had
medium blocks added to it for the optimum position and security, as we move into things like extensions and the p's.

Other horses I can ride with no thigh blocks at all. So it's not as much about me as about the shape of the horse beneath the saddle.

Stirrup bars do make a big difference in the beginning. Again, once you have sufficiently loose/open hips, you won't find them as necessary. It's not easy to find set back stirrup bars shy of custom... The Isabelle and the newer Bates Caprilli Dressage have them (The Isabelle more than the Caprilli) Some Passier's. Some others... but they are hard to find.

[MelantheLLC]

Gah, I went back last night and directly compared the two videos, the one in the seller's saddle and the one at home. I'm like two different riders.

If I didn't have the vids I would question what I feel, but it's very clear that I had no problem with a vertical torso in the seller's saddle. What I had a problem with was accepting all that vertical movement in the trot and in that first ride my hands were bouncing all over the place. (yuck!) So yeah, I totally need work on relaxing hips and lower back, but the trot isn't making me tilt forward at all. I have no recollection of that feeling of falling backwards either.

Thanks, this thread is very helpful in thinking this through.

So just per logic, I think it must be either stirrup length or saddle that is causing it now.

I'll try setting the saddle back but I suspect it won't stay back. I can try a half-pad with a little lift behind just to see if it changes my balance--that would be pretty good proof it's the saddle tilt if it does.

I don't feel secure yet with the longer stirrup but I can try it just to check my balance.

Can reflocking make a real difference in the forward tilt of a given saddle? Or should I try for a different model entirely? I'm still thinking about trialing a Zaldi but they don't send the model I like on trial in the size I need unfortunately.

God bless video cameras! You think you remember what something felt like, but then you see it a couple of months later--or even a day later--and you have an actual demo of what happened. It's easy to talk yourself into things.

Thanks, this thread is very helpful in thinking things through.

[Perfect Pony]

Can reflocking make a real difference in the forward tilt of a given saddle?

Just speaking from my experience. I have a County dressage saddle, and the tree is the correct size for my mare. My mare was also VERY happy in my saddle, it was only my position that suffered. I was lucky enough to have Mike Corcoran at my barn for several days and he completely reflocked my saddle with 100% new wool. It has made a radical change in my position, it's a completely different feeling.

So I say yes, reflocking by a really good master saddler can work wonders. But you have to start with a tree that fits your horse, and a saddle that basically fits you, all it can do is make it more balanced.

[piaffe1]

are you pinching @ your knee?

[Bogie]

So just per logic, I think it must be either stirrup length or saddle that is causing it now.

I'll try setting the saddle back but I suspect it won't stay back. I can try a half-pad with a little lift behind just to see if it changes my balance--that would be pretty good proof it's the saddle tilt if it does.

I don't feel secure yet with the longer stirrup but I can try it just to check my balance.

Can reflocking make a real difference in the forward tilt of a given saddle? Or should I try for a different model entirely? I'm still thinking about trialing a Zaldi but they don't send the model I like on trial in the size I need unfortunately.



Reading through your thread it seems to me that you have two issues: your horse is a much bigger mover than you're used to and your saddle is tipping you forward. Yes, reflocking can make a difference but it may be that the saddle just doesn't work for you on this horse. I've had saddles that I loved on one horse but never worked as well for me on other horses, even though I had them professionally fit.

When I bought my trakehner gelding he had much bigger gaits than I was used to. I ended up buying a dressage saddle that had a deeper seat and bigger knee rolls while I was learning to ride him properly; later I went back to a flatter saddle with smaller blocks.

I suggest riding in a few different saddles (that you can borrow) and get a better idea of what works for you.

Good luck!

[Ambrey]

How wide is wide?

The wider the horse, the more loose and open your hips must be. And that is not easy. If the hips are tight, the leg goes back and the upper body goes forward to compensate. The more relaxed, stable and open the hips, the more the upper body can weeble around without affecting the leg at all. .

Yep, riding a wide load is a completely different experience, although I doubt anyone else rides one quite as wide as mine ;)

My other thought, though, was something that Mary Wanless wrote about, but I can't quite remember. Something about horses that try to skitter out from under you and how it will make you tip forward to try to "keep up" or else brace on the reins. Just thought I'd throw it out there.

[goeslikestink]

Yep, riding a wide load is a completely different experience, although I doubt anyone else rides one quite as wide as mine ;)

My other thought, though, was something that Mary Wanless wrote about, but I can't quite remember. Something about horses that try to skitter out from under you and how it will make you tip forward to try to "keep up" or else brace on the reins. Just thought I'd throw it out there.

ambrey you know about that one becuase you do it yourself and dont use your seat


op-- this is link explains it in more depth as to bit advassion and the reason why plus how it can effect your horse with your position of hands and how one uses hands in order to support there weight ie can tilt you as you say so read it
http://www.meredithmanor.com/features/articles/faith/fixing_bit_evasions.asp

[slc2]

Another explanation for the nice initial video without the rider leaning forward is that the rider, the first time he rides a horse, very often doesn't have any tension or expectations of himself. It's also quite possible the seller has worked the horse down or tired him out so he's easy to ride - or just been very firm with him in getting him ready to be tried out.

I've watched people 'prep' horses for tryouts so I know this happens, it isn't necessarily anything abusive or any exhausting of the horse either, or even anything at all unethical, just a very firm schooling with the idea in mind of making the horse an easy ride. This means the rider may have a very easy time of it when he goes and tries the horse. Later, he's more on his own to 'set up' the horse and get it going well, and he's started to expect a great deal of himself, so things start to surface.

His tryout may be the best ride he has on the horse for months. Someone here ridiculed my statement that it takes a long time to get used to a new horse and really get in synch with him, but it really can be quite true.

That period of time people call the 'honeymoon' can last a few rides or so, but after that, it can actually be very, very tough on the new horse owner, especially if it's a very nice horse and he expects a great deal of himself, and it can, in fact, go on for quite a few months. Some will say, a year is typical. And it's the time in which the rider learns a LOT. It may be tough, but it's always a potential for huge growth in one's riding skill and learning.

It's really important to put out a lot of effort, yet stay relaxed and not get too hard on oneself. With a new horse, especially a really nice one where you have big expectations, getting more frequent help than usual is not at all a bad idea. One might allow a year or so of more frequent lessons to really smooth this process out and get the most out of that adjustment period.

[MelantheLLC]

I set the saddle back and it didn't make any real difference. It looks pretty level too.

Several other things to try, one at a time.

I do think that coping with his motion is a significant part of it and I'm not trying to just blame the saddle. I only want to give myself the best shot and not be dealing with any extra balance issues. ATM my regular trainer is out, just had a baby a week or so ago, so I am bouncing (pun intended!) between several others, one of whom was an assistant trainer to one of our Olympic riders and will help keep him tuned up.

This horse, at 6, has always been ridden by professionals, including one of the top young horse riders in the country. So he's definitely stepping down to me, poor guy. He's been patient and I am quite excited and determined to learn to have an independent seat with the bigger motion. I'd love to just get on him for lunge lessons, but unfortunately he seems rather inexperienced on the lunge, not totally relaxed and with a tendency to get out of balance and scare himself, and I'm not ready yet to ride him on it simply for safety reasons.

We have some very nice moments; it's not that I am having trouble riding him, per se. The Meredith Manor article hit it on the head--when I really have him in front of my leg, he goes beautifully, but I still am just that smidge leaning forward.

I think this causes us to lose balance and then things do fall apart. Right now, he is taking me, I'm not taking him.

But you gotta start somewhere.

[Ambrey]

ambrey you know about that one becuase you do it yourself and dont use your seat

Only on my skittery pony. On my big guy my leaning forward has completely different roots :lol:

Unfortunately knowing WHY we do something is only the first step in actually curing the problem :(

[wateryglen]

I vote saddle. They do sit differently on different horses but I think it's the seat. A deep seated saddle comes up and pushes your butt forward and can give you the desire to compensate either by rotating forward especiallly on your knees OR bracing and leaning backwards (something we see a lot of) Leaning forward depends on the degree of it. The saddle seat may be too small and is pushing you forward. Try a bigger seat. Deep seated saddles often should be sized an inch larger because of it's design. OR any additional padding may be tipping the seat forward.
If your shoulders, hip, knees & ankles all line up; then you're in balance. It takes years to get that straight long legged look that upper level riders achieve. Don't be so hard on yourself. What matters is your balance. Not how you look. Too much emphasis on looks sometimes!