Young mare kicks against the leg

[eesterson]

Hi,
Curious what you all think of this problem: My young hanoverian mare has been under saddle since May (4, coming 5 in March) She is making good progress--wtc, round, stretchy, forward. Every now and then when I put my leg on she just pins her ears and stops dead, and then kicks at my leg. Once in a while she'll throw in a single, big buck. None of this behavior lasts long--I whomp her once with my legs and she usually goes--sometimes it takes leg and a stern tap with the whip, and occasionally it turns into a bigger argument, with her backing up. I turn her in a tight circle, try to disengage her haunches, and then it's back to business. This usually happens on the side of the arena near the pasture where my two geldings are standing. Occasionally it happens on the other end and sometimes when I ask for the left lead canter (her problem lead).

I'm fairly certain there's nothing hurting her--saddle seems to fit fine, teeth are good. She occasionally has this same attitude problem when I come into the stall--but I just yell at her and she goes back to normal.

So, what say you? Young mare stuff? Or something more serious? Solutions? Mostly she's an absolute star-happy to work and very fast learner. I haven't started one myself in 20 years so I want to make sure I'm not missing anything.

[SCFHan]

Very scary how this is my gelding to a perfect T!! Also Hanoverian. He was under saddle, WTC for about 6 months, did the exact same things with all the matching details. Worked with our trainer he recommended the same kind of thing you are doing, disengaging haunches, but a bit more extreme especially when bucking. When he would stop, kick out and occassional even rear, he had me turn his head in hard to one direction, like nose on my knee and make him walk and/trot a few very small circles each direction and then send him REALLY forward, followed by transitions with in the gait, but exagerating the slower and more forward trot. In other words, make it not worth her being stinky. My gelding at one point would even buck at the canter when not wanting to continue forward, especially on the side of the circle closer to home.
I got complacent at home, just humming along and he was getting bored and thus found stuff to complain about. I hated getting so ruff with him but trainer is well known so I just trusted him. Now that lateral work is begining, we have had some of the same issues, kicking out at leg, but was quickly fixed this time around with same techniques. Trainer also mentioned that hanoverians usually won't buck if you get them too collected or a bit over flexed in neck, meaning down, like TB's do. I have found this to be SO true!

So never fear, you are not the only one! Makes me feel good to hear it from some else as well!

[mzm farm]

First I would try to think what I did just prior to the episode: did I ask too strongly, thereby "telling" vs. "requesting", inconsistent cue, messed up with hand, leg, seat, or blocked/confused her in some way.

If you are asking tactfully and in consistent manner (same cue for same movement every time), and she is naughty, I would do what you are doing. I also praise ALOT for all the right things they do.

One of the best praises that works on some youngsters, if they do something difficult once - I praise verbally, and get off quickly. Done for the day, hopefully they will mull over their success and arrive quicker at the correct response the next time. Some folks repeat over and over, but I think, sometimes the horse decides that it did something wrong the first time or two and tries a different response.
Sounds like she may just be opinionated.

[SCFHan]

I agree with MZM above as well. When ever I feel my guy getting "sticky" or sucking back some, I make my self really give forward with my hands and send him nice and forward and stretching b/c some times I think he feels "stuck" when the work gets harder. Lots of praise and walk breaks and if there is some thing that has been tuff and he does it well I get off immediately or make a HUGE fuss over him, give him a sugar cube and go on a hack/trail ride. He will walk by a barn several times,even when all his buddies are calling him to stay out in the woods!

[okggo]

NOt knowing any of the particulars beyond what you told, my first thought was that you may be pushing her too fast. Have you firmly established what the leg means? That it means go/move off/away? Young horses usually have no clue what it is, and need to learn to react to lightest of pressure. Asking for more before they get that, tends to lead to reactions like you are describing.

Walk/halt/change of pace. Ask, tell, make. Over. Over. Over. Until all you have to do is ask. walk/halt/trot same...rinse, repeat.

[Leena]

I would second the too strong aids.

What was the old adage ??? Someone recall ? You ask a stallion, you do something with the gelding and you tell a mare.

Analyse you riding demand and soften soften soften you aids. She is telling you something here.

Good luck !

[Manes and Tails]

The adage is:

You can tell a gelding, ask a mare, but you have to discuss it with a stallion.

How often is she demonstrating these behaviors? Dare I ask, is it every 3-4 weeks? Worse in the summer?

With a mare who demonstrates occasional odd behavior issues, especially ones that might indicate body soreness, I always check the calendar first. She may have some minor female plumbing issues going on...and if so, there are some very good herbal supplements out there that help deal with heat-related cramps and body soreness in mares.

[Leena]

The adage is:

You can tell a gelding, ask a mare, but you have to discuss it with a stallion.

Thank You !

[Sanity Rules]

Are you working lots of patterns? This will also help her realize the leg aids for what they are. I would also start doing patterns in those "sticky" areas of the arena, i.e. where the geldings are, before she starts to act up. This will help teach her to keep her mind on the game.

[slc2]

--The old adage is so great and sounds so clever, but it doesn't work. Otherwise all the riding becomes a compromise, the horse more and more does exactly as it pleases, and nothing can ever be accomplished and no progress is made and the horse becomes dangerously out of control. You can be kind, you can be consistent, you can be fair, but you can't make compromises. Or everything becomes a compromise.

Curious what you all think of this problem: My young hanoverian mare has been under saddle since May (4, coming 5 in March) She is making good progress--wtc, round, stretchy, forward. Every now and then when I put my leg on she just pins her ears and stops dead, and then kicks at my leg.

-- She is getting your number, is what it is called. You aren't getting the most basic obedience from your horse and she is at the 'I don't really think so' stage nearly all horses and definitely warmbloods go through at exactly that age, and it is a stage you have to come out on top during or the rest of the horse's life, she will not listen to you.

--You need to make her go forward, unconditionally, in no uncertain terms, immediately, with stunning immediacy, no matter what, sorry dear precious horsey, you have to go and that's all there is to it. Make her go. If she doesn't go from your leg, let her have it in no uncertain terms.

Once in a while she'll throw in a single, big buck. None of this behavior lasts long--I whomp her once with my legs and she usually goes--sometimes it takes leg and a stern tap

--Oh a stern tap! Oh my! How STERN is it??? That sounds like it isn't doing s***! If it was, this wouldn't happen over and over.

with the whip, and occasionally it turns into a bigger argument, with her backing up. I turn her in a tight circle, try to disengage her haunches, and then it's back to business.

--Forget that technique, LOL. It's worthless. Stop turning her in the happy little circle, it's actually rewarding her for doing this. Get at the core of the problem, make her go - GALLOP, when she does not listen to your leg, make her go. When the response is not 'YES M'AM' right away to the slightest leg pressure. Or if you prefer, you can be dealing with this habit for the rest of her life - except that it will get worse, and worse, and worse.

--Sorry, but I have seen too many horses ruined and made into worthless and even dangerous brats because someone didn't grow a pair at this stage. I did the same thing myself so I learned what happens if one doesn't require the young smart horse to be obedient, AND I learned how ugly it is to fix it, too, as well as how crucial it is that it IS fixed, and quick!

--Training young horses is not for the faint of heart. If you have a trainer help you, don't be surprised if Miss Precious suddenly goes flying across the arena at a dead gallop with a little initial side-roasting from the trainer, then the trainer yelling, 'Good Girl!'

This usually happens on the side of the arena near the pasture where my two geldings are standing. Occasionally it happens on the other end and sometimes when I ask for the left lead canter (her problem lead).

--So she doesn't want to go away from other horses, and she doesn't want to canter. So you must be realizing by now that this is affecting ALL your training.

I'm fairly certain there's nothing hurting her--saddle seems to fit fine, teeth are good. She occasionally has this same attitude problem when I come into the stall--but I just yell at her and she goes back to normal.

--What does she do when you go in her stall? Kick at you? BOY she's got your number.

So, what say you? Young mare stuff?

--Oh...you mean the 'it's a mare so I'm going to spoil the crap out of it, because it's a mare' thing people say and then wind up with a mare they can't ride, brush, touch on the side, walk behind, or go up to in the stall without seeing pinned back ears, a nasty face, getting kicked, bitten and charged at?

Or something more serious? Solutions?

--I'd say it's very serious. What you're doing is ineffective and the problem is continuing and now includes problems in the ring AND the stall.

--And I think you need to get a tough but fair trainer involved to guide you, and get some serious seriousness into your training.

[goeslikestink]

Hi,
Curious what you all think of this problem: My young hanoverian mare has been under saddle since May (4, coming 5 in March) She is making good progress--wtc, round, stretchy, forward. Every now and then when I put my leg on she just pins her ears and stops dead, and then kicks at my leg. Once in a while she'll throw in a single, big buck. None of this behavior lasts long--I whomp her once with my legs and she usually goes--sometimes it takes leg and a stern tap with the whip, and occasionally it turns into a bigger argument, with her backing up. I turn her in a tight circle, try to disengage her haunches, and then it's back to business. This usually happens on the side of the arena near the pasture where my two geldings are standing. Occasionally it happens on the other end and sometimes when I ask for the left lead canter (her problem lead).

I'm fairly certain there's nothing hurting her--saddle seems to fit fine, teeth are good. She occasionally has this same attitude problem when I come into the stall--but I just yell at her and she goes back to normal.

So, what say you? Young mare stuff? Or something more serious? Solutions? Mostly she's an absolute star-happy to work and very fast learner. I haven't started one myself in 20 years so I want to make sure I'm not missing anything.

get a trainer shes napping and not listening to you, plus dont over feed on high enegry foodstuffs when shes not doing he work warranted for the the feed shes getting
so up her hay quota and take her off her feeds for 2 weeks so it comes out of her system then slowly re intorduce with calm or cool mixes and trail an error till you have a happy medium this will still a lot of ears pinning and atttiude
then when she naps dont give in and turn a circle but sit in and push her forwards in the direction that your going, and dont whip and kick the horse

you know that at that spot she can see the geldings or its the door wherby you enter exit so you laready kknow you gonna have a problem so this where you have to be stronger in mind
so work the horse in walk, when she comes to that part of the areana half halt stride collect her up and sit in and push her past the trouble, you could start of comming short of the door if at top end of arena so she not got the opportunity to nap so effectively your top end of work is less and then sit and push each time you up near that end you slowly get closer and closer to the door or whre she can see the others, then move up into trot
and trot her pass keeping your legs on the horse so that by the time you finished you should be walking an trotting pass the area with no fear of her napping
you do the same thing if its an exit at the side of the school you work the horse a tad away from the wall or barriers then slowly work towards the outside track and push pass keeping you legs on and more leg yeild the horse to the side of the areana ehere the door is so your pushing pass the objective in and sitting in to the horse
this where by baisic movements of leg yeild half halts and sschoulder ins are used so the horse
is obeying your direct signal
and this where you need a trianer to help you control your horse

all the time your letting her nap and showing shes boss she will be boss both inside and out side the arena as the horse is alpha and not you

go and look for local 4-h group or lcaol hunt most have good istructors and any site link to the fei
would have a list of accredited instructors of associated groups and societies
like show jumping her ein uk for exsample we have bhs , bsja, bd, dyds. be, bef etc all have listed accredited trianers for the whole of uk

[Ange]

My Hano mare does this when her tummy is bothering her. A few doses of Gastrguard turns her back into my sweet, wonderful girl. It tends to happen in the fall when the grass dries up or when she's been traveling a lot.

[eponacelt]

--
--Forget that technique, LOL. It's worthless. Stop turning her in the happy little circle, it's actually rewarding her for doing this. Get at the core of the problem, make her go - GALLOP, when she does not listen to your leg, make her go. When the response is not 'YES M'AM' right away to the slightest leg pressure. Or if you prefer, you can be dealing with this habit for the rest of her life - except that it will get worse, and worse, and worse.



While I have to generally agree with this advice (GALLOP when they want to stop) it didn't work with my horse and actually created new problems with tension and nervousness. We got to the point where I'd have to get on an gallop, which was hurting every other aspect of training and, frankly, making me nervous.

So, we went back to asking for obedience to what the request was. If I asked you to walk, you will walk forward willingly. When we mastered that again, it was when I ask you to trot, don't question me, swish your tail and threaten to buck, but move off my leg willingly. We're still getting the canter.

At any rate, with my horse, I found the louder I made the argument, the louder he yelled back. Small, insistent requests were actually the best way to get through the problem and we're back to making generally good progress. As long as I don't overblow the response to his antics, we get through the work and he is losing interest in questioning me. I'm sure this doesn't work for all horses, but it does seem to be the better approach with mine.

[ToN Farm]

I agree with Epona. Besides, galopping forward isn't possible if the horse is unwilling. Whipping and spurring, or setting off an atom bomb, will only meet with more resistence from some horses. Then you have only made the young mare more worried and fighting back. Let us not forget that Relaxation is first step on the training scale!

The problem is (and I've been through it more often than I'd like to admit) is that is has been allowed to happen multiple times and has become a habit. A good pro would have been able to prevent the napping from happening or nipped it in the bud.

Yes, in the OP's situation, a trainer's help is recommended. However, when the trainer has dealt with the problem, the owner has to get back on and the mare will continue to test. The owner has to learn how to deal with the problem.

[slc2]

Kyra Kyrkland has extensive examples of doing this at a walk if you don't want to gallop. I think horses can get into this because there are conflicts with the aids, such as the reins restraining when the legs are saying to go, but with some horses they are more sensitive to that than others and even the slightest degree of conflict in the aids causes them to get stoppy and so does a lack of reinforcement of the leg aids - has the same effect. And I think in a lot of cases it's a real relief for the horse to go forward and to gallop, and to have the aids be simple and clear and non conflicting.

I'm riding a horse now that is very, very easy to get 'stopped up' and too much work on figures, precision and obedience isn't good for him - neither is too much walking, keeping things simple is - sometimes he just needs to GO, and once he realizes he's free and can do so, he's very happy and he stops being 'hot' and 'nervous'.

And no, eponacelt, this doesn't make horses nervous if it's done correctly - actually the very opposite happens. We have to think alot in dressage about not getting too stopped up and too focused on the 'micro' and forgetting the 'macro' - the whole basis of all dressage is that simple forward energy that has to be cultivated at all times.

[CatOnLap]

At any rate, with my horse, I found the louder I made the argument, the louder he yelled back

I am glad you said that. The advice that you quote, to go forward at all costs, comes right out of many good training books, but anyone who has trained more than a couple of horses will know that sometimes the cost isn't worth it. Especially when you run into a particularly dominant horse. You cannot win a fight with a half ton animal through brute force. You can only reach deep into your bag of tricks. One trick is to outwit/outwait them.

I don't know what to advise the OP-Eesterson, it actually sounds like you've found a solution that works for you. The confirmation would be if the behavior is decreasing in frequency and that the work is improving. Myself, I never found that spinning in a circle "disengaging the hindquarters" was very helpful. I've met a lot of horses with a bad habit of spinning after any disobedience, which they have been taught to do in the name of disengagement. Quickest way I know to unseat an unsteady rider and I don't teach my horses that ever. I want my horse engaged at all times- I feel safer when I have the power house of the hindquarters "in hand".

I am currently rehabbing a pacer standardbred mare from the track who is extremely sensitive to the leg while ridden. She's been "sacked out", desensitized, etc, and does not react to any pressure on her flanks as long as you are not riding. But under saddle, it takes a very tactful ride not to bring out major protest. Major protest that I don't particularly want to ride through at my age. So I do try and avoid it. This is a mare who rose to the top of the herd within 3 weeks of arriving because she's such a so-and-so, even though she's the tiniest horse in a well established herd. She's the one who has scared several previous owners into just leaving her alone, so she wasn't broke to saddle until last month although she's rising 7. She's had about 8 rides with me so far.

Let us not forget that Relaxation is first step on the training scale!
and AMEN to that Sistah!

I generally take it that when she kicks out, its because I surprised her with a momentarily unsteady leg and she didn't understand why I was "shouting". If she would continue trotting after the kickout, I just continued on as if nothing happened. But quite often, she will pin her ears, drop her head and stop. And at first she would also back up. If I forced the issue, the atom bomb would indeed go off and the training session would be done because she would then work herself up into a fury. Scarey. She does a lovely pesade and some passable capriole.

So now, if she stops, I just sit calmly, as if stopping was my idea. I massage her sides with my legs, bump them gently and do the general desensitizing work from the saddle. At some point, every horse will decide that standing still was NOT their idea and will want to move forward. As soon as she decides to go forward, she gets a pat and its back to work. If she just stands there and drops her head and chews, I know she's relaxed and when I ask her to move forward with my leg, she generally will. it has never taken more than a minute.

The result of this approach with this horse has been that yesterday, we didn't get a single kickout, even though we did a fair amount of work with legs on and changes of direction, etc. And we got nice relaxed loose rein walks in between work sessions- something she certainly did not come with.( think "RACETRACK!!!!")

I am not saying this is the right approach with every horse. But it is another approach worth trying and definitely safer than forcing the issue with whips and such for some horses.

The opther half to this approach is prevention. Horses gnerally have places where they will try their little trick again. So when I am coming near the exit gate, or the scarey spot, I will now ask her for a leg yield of a circle or something to take her mind off what she thought she was going to try, and reward her for doing it. She is becoming much steadier and happier in her work. Still a long way to go though.

[Kyzteke]

I am glad you said that. The advice that you quote, to go forward at all costs, comes right out of many good training books, but anyone who has trained more than a couple of horses will know that sometimes the cost isn't worth it. Especially when you run into a particularly dominant horse. You cannot win a fight with a half ton animal through brute force. You can only reach deep into your bag of tricks. One trick is to outwit/outwait them.

I don't know what to advise the OP-Eesterson, it actually sounds like you've found a solution that works for you. The confirmation would be if the behavior is decreasing in frequency and that the work is improving. Myself, I never found that spinning in a circle "disengaging the hindquarters" was very helpful. I've met a lot of horses with a bad habit of spinning after any disobedience, which they have been taught to do in the name of disengagement. Quickest way I know to unseat an unsteady rider and I don't teach my horses that ever. I want my horse engaged at all times- I feel safer when I have the power house of the hindquarters "in hand".

I am currently rehabbing a pacer standardbred mare from the track who is extremely sensitive to the leg while ridden. She's been "sacked out", desensitized, etc, and does not react to any pressure on her flanks as long as you are not riding. But under saddle, it takes a very tactful ride not to bring out major protest. Major protest that I don't particularly want to ride through at my age. So I do try and avoid it. This is a mare who rose to the top of the herd within 3 weeks of arriving because she's such a so-and-so, even though she's the tiniest horse in a well established herd. She's the one who has scared several previous owners into just leaving her alone, so she wasn't broke to saddle until last month although she's rising 7. She's had about 8 rides with me so far.


and AMEN to that Sistah!

I generally take it that when she kicks out, its because I surprised her with a momentarily unsteady leg and she didn't understand why I was "shouting". If she would continue trotting after the kickout, I just continued on as if nothing happened. But quite often, she will pin her ears, drop her head and stop. And at first she would also back up. If I forced the issue, the atom bomb would indeed go off and the training session would be done because she would then work herself up into a fury. Scarey. She does a lovely pesade and some passable capriole.

So now, if she stops, I just sit calmly, as if stopping was my idea. I massage her sides with my legs, bump them gently and do the general desensitizing work from the saddle. At some point, every horse will decide that standing still was NOT their idea and will want to move forward. As soon as she decides to go forward, she gets a pat and its back to work. If she just stands there and drops her head and chews, I know she's relaxed and when I ask her to move forward with my leg, she generally will. it has never taken more than a minute.

The result of this approach with this horse has been that yesterday, we didn't get a single kickout, even though we did a fair amount of work with legs on and changes of direction, etc. And we got nice relaxed loose rein walks in between work sessions- something she certainly did not come with.( think "RACETRACK!!!!")

I am not saying this is the right approach with every horse. But it is another approach worth trying and definitely safer than forcing the issue with whips and such for some horses.

The opther half to this approach is prevention. Horses gnerally have places where they will try their little trick again. So when I am coming near the exit gate, or the scarey spot, I will now ask her for a leg yield of a circle or something to take her mind off what she thought she was going to try, and reward her for doing it. She is becoming much steadier and happier in her work. Still a long way to go though.

Excellent post!!

#1 Rule of Horse Training: Be Smarter Than the Horse
#2 Don't start something you can't finish.

[Kathy Johnson]

Prevention is everything. If you have to resort to correction, it's too late.

Spend more time figuring out what escalates the behavior. You may well be over-aiding and that doesn't help. Since I've ridden so many babies, I guarantee it boils down to one thing: the young horse does not really know what your leg means. She is not being young or being a mare or being bad. She is doing something to answer your leg, and that's better than doing nothing. She doesn't know what she's supposed to be doing.

Break it down into simple steps. One leg means move over. Two legs means go. Start back in the turn on the forehand on the ground, in hand. One push means move over. Under saddle, introduce turn on the forehand and leg yield fairly soon.

Start back on the longe line and voice commands. "Trot" means go. "Canter" means go faster. In a perfect world, you would have a pro help you on the longe line. She would say "trot" and your legs would simply and gently reinforce, until the horse learns that two legs means go. Having that person longe the rider on the green horse is the step I see missing most in the training of young horses. So, the young horse knows the voice means go on the longe, but no one has ever bridged the gap that the legs mean go under saddle. how is the horse supposed to know?

Then after you have clarified your aids on the longe, use your voice first to ask the horse to go when you ride her, followed by light legs, backed up by the whip. it's a fairly normal response from a young horse and it's also fairly easy to re-train.

[camohn]

Are you working lots of patterns? This will also help her realize the leg aids for what they are. I would also start doing patterns in those "sticky" areas of the arena, i.e. where the geldings are, before she starts to act up. This will help teach her to keep her mind on the game.

Ditto......with my mare that was over reactive to leg aids and also spooky (at a rather large variety of things.......) at my lessons we have been working on first serpentines and then boxes where she had to swing her hind end over.......I can actually kick her over now if need be/sometimes gets balky(which would have been a death wish before) and while the lookie loo/spooking is quite a bit better now she still has her moments.......usually during warming up....and those patterns still work as a way to focus her attention on something other than what she can find to spook at until she warm up and settles down.
In short...with time (several weeks of working on this) it did get better.

[nhwr]

If a young horse has been under saddle for 6 months, they should have developed a fundamental understanding of what the leg means or they are not being started properly. Figures and patterns make the rider feel better because they believe they are controlling the horse but this isn't the case really. The problem here is; your mare isn't accepting the leg. Mares can be particularly sensitive about this in my experience. This is simply something that must be worked through if the horse is ever going to be successful in dressage. Maybe your aids are too strong, but so what. This is not an acceptable response. When the leg goes on, the horse must offer a forward response without hesitation - anything else is the horsey finger.

This isn't to say that many mares don't benefit from figures and lateral work warming up, mine certainly does, but that is a different issue from moving off the leg.

Your horse needs to be asked to move off your leg and galloped if she even thinks about hesitating. You won't have to do this move than a couple of times, I guarantee.

If you are afraid of the response your mare will offer, she is training you!

[Ibex]

You're describing my youngster to a "T" as well... it came right around the time she started understanding what we wanted. We went from "I don't understand" to "I understand, I just don't wanna do it!" pretty quickly :cool:

FWIW, she's worked out of it quickly. She's pretty easy to read, and consistent so we can work through it and carry on. It was bad for about a week, and we seem to be improving now...

[eponacelt]

And I think in a lot of cases it's a real relief for the horse to go forward and to gallop, and to have the aids be simple and clear and non conflicting.

*snip*

And no, eponacelt, this doesn't make horses nervous if it's done correctly - actually the very opposite happens. We have to think alot in dressage about not getting too stopped up and too focused on the 'micro' and forgetting the 'macro' - the whole basis of all dressage is that simple forward energy that has to be cultivated at all times.

While I wholeheartedly agree with your first statement, I don't agree with the second. With most horses, just going forward is all well and good. I was doing our gallops under the full supervision of a trainer, and it became quickly evident that my horse would just start to anticipate the gallop, so we went from having one problem to having another. And to make matters worse, when we went back to the work that originally got the kicking/bucking response, it hadn't gone away. So we went to just being insistent that he do WHAT WE ASKED. Whether that was walk, trot or canter.

So...galloping forward is great. My only point was to say that it isn't the answer for every horse, every time. Me and my horse are living proof of that.

Like someone else said...we need to reach deep into our bag of tricks sometimes!

[eesterson]

Wow, thanks for all the thoughtful responses. We have indeed galloped forward, we have worked figures, and we have abandoned the tight circles unless it's a matter of just moving her feet to get her to go somewhere, if forward isn't working. And I am working with a competent trainer. I've never posted on the COTH forum before and I'm amazed at the responses (for better or for worse)
Update: She has improved greatly over the past week and this morning I had a lesson in a windstorm and she was a forward moving angel (nothing like a north wind to help that "forward.") I haven't had an incident as described since I wrote that post. But now I have a few new ideas.