Head wagging

[lark_b]

My new horse is a 15 year old TB. He raced for three years, retired, and was a school horse since then. He's coming back from a mechanical founder in his LF, and the farrier and vet have it under control. He is basically sound, or as sound as he will ever be in front, and in back my trainer says he is one of the most even-moving horses she has ever seen, regardless of age. He has nice natural movement, with good (and VERY boingy) gaits and an incredibly, sweet, willing personality. He has been in the field for more than a year and he is coming back into work now. Everything is fine except he wags his head like a dog wagging its tail. His back is loose, his hind end is engaged, and he is flexed at the poll... my trainer says that it is that he is stiff in the jaw. It stops or nearly stops when he is 100% on my aids so I think that's accurate, but other than just riding him to the best of my ability (I'm already doing that!) and keeping my hands as still and my half-halts as hand-light as possible, is there anything I can do here? Will it decrease with fitness?

[Mallard]

Do you mean his head/nose goes left/right, left/right?
In the trot? On contact or with a long/loose rein?
This is usually rider-induced...hands are not even in the contact.

If it is an up/down motion in the trot, that is an indication of lameness.

[lark_b]

No, wag, not a bob. Side to side. He does it regardless of who rides him, and I've had some very nice riders on him. He doesn't do it when he's not being asked to be round... on a loose rein, or even on a short rein with his old jumper shape. I think it's clear its rider-related, that's why I am asking how to fix it :).

[egontoast]

I know a horse who does that same thing. He was ridden a lot in drawreins before his current owner had him and she thinks it may be related to that. It's like his head is nailed to the bit but the connection is wrong. The neck is rubbery. I think the jaw is set as well as you mentioned.

At a recent clinic, the clinician had her really work religiously on the connection, bumping him up through the contact and keeping the outside rein. Ignoring the wagging but really insisting on the connection. There was some improvement but it is a very stubborn issue.

Sounds like you are on the right track.

[slc2]

It's usually the rider using one rein and then the other that makes the horse wag his head back and forth.

It might be because of habit, past riders.

[smithywess]

Your quote:.." He doesn't do it when he's not being asked to be round "

Perhaps you have too much hand backwards? Perhaps if you could get him light in his jaw,first, then his own good activity you say he has in his hind end will do the job of rounding him into your 'fixed'hands.Only the fingers should move,when the elbows are on the trunk,which is where they should be in a three point seat.When he's light he will round himself.

[JB]

Mine does this when the base of his neck is stiff.

[Manes and Tails]

Make sure you're engaging the hindquarters *before* asking for the head to come down. If you're worrying about the headset without the rest, then that could be causing this issue.

[lark_b]

Sounds like the bottom line here is that when he's wagging, he's telling me I've lost his butt. That's fixed easily enough (it's a good throughness tell, huh?) but I'm not sure I understand the mechanism for lack of proper engagement --> head wags. God knows I've ridden a lot of poorly engaged horses, none of which wagged their heads :).

[purplnurpl]

He's a new horse for you? a 15 y/o that was used as a school horse?

Probably habit from being used in the school.

[slc2]

Well the real question is how is the horse being 'asked to get round'? which is more likely where the problem lies.

Usually, the way someone 'gets a horse round' is quickly and rhythmically in the stride, working one rein, then the other, which is not the correct way to do it.

[egontoast]

Usually, the way someone 'gets a horse round' is quickly and rhythmically in the stride, working one rein, then the other, which is not the correct way to do it.

gEEZ WHIZ, nO KIDDING? :lol: Who are all these people you ride with? :confused:

[slc2]

Really, egon, you're slipping. Your personal insults, accusations and attacks are getting postively to be just a mere shadow of their former selves. Are you ill? Tired? Perhaps you have that bloated feeling from overeating yesterday.

Define 'ride with'.

I see a great deal of this at shows and stables all over the place, and have for years, and this method also seems to be quite the thing on most internet websites. For many people 'getting the horse round' is just a new euphemism for 'a frame', and the earlier term 'a head set', also used is the term 'on the bit', it is pulling (squeezing, working, hard or soft, it's the same thing) first one rein then the other quickly in a quick rhythm, in an effort to get the horse to drop the bit and put his chin in and down. It isn't dressage, but a whole lot of people think it is.

[Auventera Two]

A few months ago I went to visit a WB mare that my friend used to own. I had her at my place for 6 weeks for some "chilling out" time and retraining after some bad experiences.

Anyway, she's owned by a lovely girl who rides Training level, and takes a lot of leessons, and shows the mare a lot. I was not happy to see though that the rider uses some strong "half halts" (I'm using the term really loosely here...) to work the mare's head down onto the vertical. The mare would do this same sort of head wagging back and forth from the pole like you're describing.

I guess honestly, I'd never seen it or heard of it before that. :confused: It's like her mouth is welded to the bit, and she swings the head back and forth in time to the rein aids. Hers was not terribly pronounced or obnoxious, but it was noticeable.

So maybe at some point your guy was trained incorrectly to "get his head down"? I can see where that method would cause a lot of tightness and tension in the neck and jaw. Really, that was the only time I ever saw a horse do that, then I read this thread!

[egontoast]

Your personal insults, accusations and attacks are getting postively to be just a mere shadow of their former selves. Are you ill? Tired? Perhaps you have that bloated feeling from overeating yesterday

:confused::confused::confused:

geez, overreact much? Good grief. Lighten up.

For really personal insults, please see your own quote above. :no:

[STF]

Ughgh,
I have a mare here who had been through a lot of NONE dressage people who thought they understood it and well, she wags her head in the gaits. Literally grabs the bit and will pull your hands side to side.
Everytime I ride her I get so mad at people who think seasawing on a horses face is the way to obtain contact! Ahghghghghhghghgh!

[DennisM]

A 15 year old horse who has had an active athletic career could simply be experiencing some pain in his hind quarters, so that he's pulling with his front end more than he's pushing with his hind end. That alone could be causing his head to sway from side to side, even with still hands and steady contact, as he "lurches" from side to side with this front legs with each stride.

[Manes and Tails]

Exactly. It's incorrect use of flexion to get his head down.

Correct use is to feel the outside rein and then release, and it should only be used if the horse is already balanced but stil has his head stuck in the air *not* to start the process.

People start the frame at the wrong end of the horse all the time.

[egontoast]

Well, like StF's horse and the horse I watched in the clinic, sometimes these get inherited and need retraining. I'm sure if someone like slc watched STF on her horse, she'd think she was seesawing. That's what it looks like even when the rider is not seesawing.

This horse also head wagged some when the BNT got on and this was a very BNT. I kind of prefer OLDRT - Olympic level dressage riderand trainer because BNT sounds like it's all about the name.

It took a lot of driving from behind into the connection to make any difference. I think lack of throughness was the real issue.

[lark_b]

Thanks for all your perspectives. I rode him this morning and was VERY conscious of keeping my outside rein totally steady and my inside leg on a little stronger than with the other horses I'm riding right now, and the problem was *much* decreased. He's an intelligent horse and I'm trying to be as clear with him as possible, and it seems that we understand each other a little better now :).

[sid]

I would suspect that the horse has been habituated to being "ying-yanged" in the bridle by someone who thought that might be the way to achieve roundness and "flexion" ... oy. (BTW, that's my term, for no other better description - -or others might describe it as "see-sawing"?)

It's amazing what really willing horses do to adjust to the way they are ridden if they've been ridden that way long enough. Truly, horses can be taught anything! I would guess, barring a physical problem this way of going is a case of classical conditioning, if you will. Long after the stimulus (that caused the behavior) may be gone, they still repeat the behavior.

A horse that has been habituated to go this way because of incorrect hand aids I would think would be correctable --provided they have good rider who works more on riding from "back to front", is not "handsy". That is, with one who has not misinterpreted the aids to "break up" the jaw, poll, neck and knows how to do that judiciously, without forgetting this importance in the hind end connection in doing so.

[goeslikestink]

echo sid here read this link will does explain bit advasion in more depth http://www.meredithmanor.com/features/articles/faith/fixing_bit_evasions.asp

[Blinkers On]

I love it when horses wag their heads when they walk too or from the track. They are so content and just relaxed and happily going to the "office" to train. They usually do it on a loose and relaxed rein. I also enjoy the flopsie ears. SO fun watching horses express thmselve happily!