What do you think is the greatest contributor to ulcers in horses?

[Gayla]

Living in a stall.
Lack of constant food source.
Type of concentrates we feed.
Work.
Stress from work.
What??
I know that each horse is different but when ulcers are so prevalent I would like to spend as much time of prevention as treatment.

[pines4equines]

FOr me, I think it was the medication for Lyme that caused our problem.

I also heard trailering, even short distances (10 miles) several times a week are stressful. Someone once mentioned they don't feed hay if their trailering is under 10 miles, I think you should have hay in there even if you're going around the block. Who knows what the horse actually, really ate (especially if they were out prior to loading) before getting on that trailer?

[deltawave]

Domestication in general.

I have a slightly different view on this--I am not 100% convinced that ulcers are ALWAYS pathological and ALWAYS a sign of disease. Until large observational studies are done on feral horses in the field (not rounding them up, stressing them and THEN scoping them) to determine the prevalence of ulcers in horses in a "natural" state, I'm not entirely sure we should consider "100% ulcer free" the normal baseline for a horse.

I'm not arguing at all that ulcers ARE pathological and a huge problem for many horses, just wondering what the prevalence might be in otherwise perfectly healthy, happy individuals. I have a suspicion it isn't "zero".

[chaltagor]

I read a study in JAVMA that found any type of stressor caused ulcers. They put horses on treadmills, trailers, riding etc. and all the activity caused ulcers in almost every horse. So never touch your horse again.

I haven't been able to find it again and I don't have an online subscription so I can't look it up. It was a good study, within the last year or so. Sigh. I sound like a certain prolific poster. :uhoh:

[deltawave]

chaltagor, what you noted was the flip side of what I was saying--domestication/stress may cause ulcers, but we probably shouldn't look at it as an indictment of domestication so much as something to look out for and manage.

[chaltagor]

Yeah, I was writing while you were and didn't see your post. I think horses that had empty stomachs were worse off in the study? So not having grass 24/7 will contribute.

[chaltagor]

Delta, do you have a subscription to JAVMA? You could probably look it up better than me sitting on the floor with the magazines. If you were curious, that is. ;)

[Rick Burten]

one word: MANKIND

[dwblover]

I agree with the fact that a lot of ulcers arise from domestication. However, there ARE horses who trailer, are ridden almost daily, and are fed a large amount of grain who don't have ulcers. There are several at my barn, and I was there when they were scoped. Completely clean. So my point is that I also think a horse's personality has something to do with the formation of ulcers as well. Some horses are worriers. They get stressed out easily. Other horses can be thrown into a new environment and be virtually stress-free. I think horses with better stress control get less ulcers.

[sweetpea]

But considering they are far better then the risk of being in the wild today-- they are still better off.
I do think we have to be balanced about how a horse lives--
Do you show???? Fine but is there down time
DO you train heavy???? Is there just easy going hit the trails time
Little turnout would hit me hard , I really think this is huge to a horse. I turnout as long as the ice permits!!!
Diet ---- Know as much as you can but keep it simple.
I think a balance approach to a horse's life and our goals as a rider need to be weighed.

[deltawave]

And if we would apply these sensible principles to our own lives we'd all most likely be a lot healthier, too. :)

[Tackpud]

one word: MANKIND

My first thought was "HUMANS"!!!

[Donkey]

So a lot of ulcers in human are caused by a bacteria so there must be horse studies on this - anyone know anything about a bacteria connection?

[EqTrainer]

I don't think I could choose between stalls and a lack of forage.

I think you can get away with a lot of other stresses if a horse lives out in a good social situation and has forage 24/7.

Or at least that is what mine say, because that is the one thing that never changes for them.

[George Myers]

My first thought was "HUMANS"!!!

No, I think Rick got it right first time - definitely MANkind in light of the dominance of human males in the horse world over the past 6 millennia. :)

A study in New Zealand showed that a very high percentage of race horses have ulcers - and that feeding lucerne (alfalfa) helped with prevention. Don't know much more than that - just recall the headline somewhere.

Depends on how you view causation in ulcers - isn't it now accepted that ulcers in humans is caused / or at least exacerbated by bacteria? I think that was also NZ research - must have a thing about ulcers down there.

[Mallard]

Can't remember where I got the info from, but I believe that there is research that shows bacteria is NOT a cause of ulcers in horses.

[George Myers]

Aha - there you go - internet to the rescue.

www.horsetalk.co.nz/health/106-gastriculcers.shtml

[grayarabpony]

I don't think I could choose between stalls and a lack of forage.

I think you can get away with a lot of other stresses if a horse lives out in a good social situation and has forage 24/7.

Or at least that is what mine say, because that is the one thing that never changes for them.

I agree. There are so many horses who stand for hours in stalls with nothing in their stomachs....

[Gayla]

After reading the NZ article I am wondering about adrenaline as a factor. Training in race horses no doubt causes a stress related cascade of hormones related to both physical and mental stress. I wonder if the timing of the stress and the lack of food could be a factor. When horses are under the greatest physical and mental stress they are not eating...running, jumping etc. I don't intend to insinuate that it is all negative. The horse may enjoy his work but have a physical response to running fast or working hard as part of their evolutionary make up for survival. Thoughts?

[equinelaw]

Having a way to see them. And having a drug to cure them.

[StrawberryFrosted]

I don't know how much I can contribute to this post but I have done my own "mini experiment" with my 18 yo gelding.
He has a h/o colic (documented every 4-6 weeks) so I finally started him on Ranitidine 300mg tabs given 3x a day for a total of 6,000mg.
Started in May 2008 and no colic since.
Horse was shown in dressage from May until Oct. Couple of shows a month, most trailer rides were 20-25 minutes. 2 rides (July and Sept) were one hour.
Turn out was about 6-7 hours, and stalled at night (boarding barn)

Ok so now for the "experiment" part.
Moved to a 3 stall private barn 2 weeks after we retired him from showing. Last show was mid October.
Turn out all day and all night weather pending. Can eat grass all day and also gets hay if it snows etc.
Things were going well, horse got ridden at a walk by my mom and bareback at WTC by me.
TOTAL LOW STRESS. Stomach full. No trailer in site. No training. Just trail rides and some arena stuff. Mind you this horse is used to a 5-6 day a week training/show routine.

So I figure since his stress went from high to low, I could reduce his dose of Ranitidine. Took it down by 1/3. ( I did this after being at the new barn for a month bc I know moving is stressful on them) (he also moved with my other horse and a horse that he was pasturemates with, so no new horses to interact with either)
Two weeks later he had a VERY MILD colic episode (the most mild ever).
Gave him banamine and he was fine in 10-15 minutes. Eating hay after 30 minutes.
One week later he was seen pawing again. Hand walked and after 5 minutes was acting normal.

This tells me this horse NEEDS this medication. So I'm going back to my original dose.

And trust me, I know this horse like the back of my hand. I spend every day with him, minus about 15 days a YEAR that I am out of town for work (then my mom fills in for me). He is never without someone to love on him.
I have tried every "ulcer" remedy, tried different foods, hay, pro and pre biotics and every other solution for ulcers. The ranitidine seems to work for him bc when he is on a full dose 3x a week he is fine.

Not sure if this helps with why horses have ulcers but my horse seems to have a really good low stress life and still needs meds in order not to colic.

[Cherry]

I still think some of it is due to Lysine deficiency! If you read the symptoms for Lysine deficiency and ulcers they are both the same. Too simplistic??? Remember Occam's Razor????

Old horses, young horses and horses in heavy training are under more stress--stress depletes Lysine stores. Lysine is one amino acid that the horse cannot manufacture and one of the things Lysine does is help with soft tissue repair. If there's not enough there does it not stand to reason that the digestive system would become vulnerable as a result???

I noticed that one of the companies (I think it's Progressive Nutrition) is putting Lysine in their product they make for treating ulcers....

It's been said that having sufficient grass and/or hay in front of the horse at all times cuts down on the incidence of ulcers too.

[Auventera Two]

As for the bacteria - horses have never been shown to harbor the same bacteria that causes ulcers in humans.

I always hear that grain + stalling + lack of forage = ulcers. Well, that wasn't true with my mare. She ate very little grain, and it was always mixed with no-molasses beet pulp. She ate all the hay I could stuff in front of her face, all day long. She ate alfalfa and grass. When she actually developed the ulcers, she was on 24/7 turnout, with only the ocassional stalling at night during thunderstorms. And her ulcers were so SEVERE. :( The photos of them still give me nightmares.

I think some horses just genetically produce more stomach acid. The vet told me that my mare would always have too much acid, and I should always be preventative for the rest of her life. She now gets Pro-CMC daily, and Gastrogard before, during, and after any kind of event where she's trailered. I put her in a stall with 2 big flakes of alfalfa for her to eat before every ride. I no longer just grab her from the pasture, assume her belly is full, and take off riding. I make SURE she really eats before I ride, and if she doesn't, then we don't ride. It's a PITA, but it is what it is.

[deltawave]

Ooh, Equinelaw, how VERY cynical you are! :) :)

[War Admiral]

For me, the primary thing is lack of forage - at least, that's what HRH Avery tells me. Stress (whether caused naturally or not) would be #2.

[lizathenag]

the internet

[Bluey]

Feral horses also live with stressors, herd dynamics, the weather and predators.

We need to know if they also suffer ulcers and when.

I say it is definitely the horse's metabolism that has a geat influence.
The study on race horses I read long ago stated that 80% of the horses tested in that study had ulcers, so why did the other 20% didn't under the same rather extreme stress conditions?:confused:

[equinelaw]

Nobody has any evidence stress causes ulcers in horses. The studies done 10 years ago required fasting for 24 hours to scope. There is lots of evidence that fasting for 24 hours causes ulcers. Did the horses have ulcers before they were fasted?? Nobody knows.

There are also different kinds of ulcers caused by different things. If they are on the bottom of the stomach they are caused by one things and if on the top or sides they are caused by gastric juices slashing all around where here is no protection.

There are lots of nice new studies that simply do not support its turnout or grazing or stress related and grain causes the gastric ph to go UP--not down. It may cause ulcers in the small intestine, but not the stomach. Hay makes it go DOWN.

All NSAIDS cause ulcers. No feed for 24 hours can cause ulcers. Thats all we really know.

We extrapolate that horses get ulcers from stress based on the now disproved idea that humans got ulcers form stress. I have seen no concrete evidence that horses get ulcers from a bacteria, but it would not surprise me in the least. It would even explain why horses concentrated in small spaces get the most ulcers.

I would imagine that horses had ulcers for many years while we remained blissfully ignorant and good care and training allowed them to heal. Now we have an easy treatment. Making the treatment cheaper might be a really good use of limited resources?

[pines4equines]

A2 said: "I no longer just grab her from the pasture, assume her belly is full, and take off riding. I make SURE she really eats before I ride, and if she doesn't, then we don't ride. "

Totally agree with this and while I trailer a very short distance, I do trailer sometimes upwards of three - four times a week. I always put hay in the trailer. He has access to it in the trailer, while I'm tacking up and untacking and then for the trip home.

[MelantheLLC]

There is an excellent summary in The Horse from Sept 30 2008 of various studies and the factors currently suspected.

It's a subscription article but I'll link for those who have one:

http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=12806

Some interesting quotes regarding questions in this thread:

Stress:

Scott McClure, DVM, PhD, Dipl. ACVS, assistant professor in the Department of Veterinary Clinical Sciences at Iowa State University, examined the impact of stress conditions on development of ulcers. His study reproduced conditions involved with attending a horse show-- the horses were hauled for four hours, stabled in a box stall for three days, exercised on a longe line twice daily, then transported home.

"On Day 5 we could already see reddening and thickening of the stomach lining," says McClure. "Seven of 10 horses had some ulcers, although not large ones. If you maintained the stress, you would likely see some early clinical signs, like decreased feed intake and general ‘uncomfortableness' of the affected horses."

McClure notes that changes to the stomach lining are visible via endoscopic exam by Days 5 or 6, whereas clinical signs don't generally appear until Days 7-10. Small ulcers that are visible at Day 5 show significant ulceration by Day 8.

McClure has seen horses that "live on the road, yet don't have ulcer problems. That is the environment they are used to, and they have the benefit of filled hay bags hung in front of them almost all of the time."

Looking at environmental factors, McClure stresses that change is the major factor[my bold]: "It seems that problems develop when horses are stalled in new barns, when started into showing or training, and when being hauled, especially early on in their careers."

Bacteria:

In people, bacterial infection is a primary cause of glandular ulcer disease, but it likely has little impact on the nonglandular disease that horses experience. Although Helicobacter DNA (the bacterium that causes human ulcers) has been identified in equine stomachs via positive PCR tests, no published work has yet isolated this organism in equine gastric ulcers."

"Low-risk" pastured horses:

Research by Sarah le Jeune, DVM, Dipl. ACVS, ECVS, CVA, at the University of California, Davis, School of Veterinary Medicine yielded some interesting revelations about gastric ulcers in broodmares. The population of 62 mares in her study were managed similarly and maintained in irrigated grass pastures.

Nonpregnant mares were fed straight alfalfa, while pregnant mares received a mix of 50% alfalfa and 50% grass hay twice daily. All mares were fed two pounds of grain once daily.

She says she was surprised that the "overall prevalence of gastric ulcers was about 71%."

While ulcers were mild, she says, "These findings should increase the awareness for gastric ulcers in a population of horses that was previously thought to be at a very low risk of developing this condition."

There is a lot more in this article. Very informative.

[equinelaw]

I would need to see a study that correlated actual objective measures of stress to ulcer formation. Like cortisol levels and heart rate and other measures.

That first study made the assumption that the things they did were proven to cause stress. It just as much could have been a study on the effect of temporary stalls on ulcers or being longed twice daily.

I have had to try and design studies to test reactivity and stress in horses. Its hard. You have to work really hard to not allow your unfounded bias to get into your results.

That's hwy the new studies that find broodmares and pasture puffs out 24/7 have ulcers too are always reported as "surprising"

I didn't know they found the bad bacteria in horses. Maybe they should be working on that published work? I think modern horses have it better then in most other times of history. More turnout, better feeds, less work, and more ulcers????

[MistyBlue]

I'm not sure stress causes it either...unless horses build up a larger amount of stomach acid during prolonged stress and already have a mucus-lining issue.
Then again...I've never had a horse with ulcers either. And if stress alone was a factor then my late mare should have been one walking 1600 lb ulcer...she was an extremely nervous spooky lady who freaked out if any of her routine changed. She once had a bought of colic because new neighbors moved in behind us. The moving trucks didn't want to try our driveway (shared driveway) and the driveway runs behind my barn and up on ledge about 30 feet above the barn. Just the activity of having movers and people driving pick-ups back and forth on the driveway from the semi trucks on the street to the house behind my house caused her to colic from her pacing and watching. :rolleyes: I did have her scoped for ulcers...none.
So luckily I haven't had to deal with ulcers...thankfully considering the ri-donk-ulous freaking price of G Guard...the vet once thought my gelding had ulcers (turned out to be colitis) and I bought a box of G Guard for him but then had him scoped before giving it to him. About had a heart attack when I saw the price. :eek: Sorry, ain't no way in hell that stuff costs 1/1000 of that to produce. Sure it works but still....

[yellowbritches]

Living in a stall.
Lack of constant food source.
Type of concentrates we feed.
Work.
Stress from work.
What??
I know that each horse is different but when ulcers are so prevalent I would like to spend as much time of prevention as treatment.
I wish I knew, because I nearly lost my guy to a bout of colic caused by undiagnosed ulcers. He lived outside, had good grazing that was supplemented with good hay, got a small amount of concentrate (actually, a ration balancer), and he was retired. He's also extremely mellow about life. He had one of the nasty cases of ulcers I've seen...and so nasty that the treating vet who scoped him at the teaching hospital called students to come and see him! So, why did he get such a horrid case of ulcers??

Most other horses I've cared for that have gotten them have been tightly wound critters and showing and working quite a bit, so their uclers were not a shock. I would love to see some real research done on WHY they're caused.

[Thomas_1]

Forgetting that a horse is a trickle forage feeder and feeding grain loaded "meals".

Coupled with stress caused by such as boredom from standing about all day waiting for the next big meal.

[Duramax]

Stall time.

[George Myers]

After reading the NZ article I am wondering about adrenaline as a factor. Training in race horses no doubt causes a stress related cascade of hormones related to both physical and mental stress. I wonder if the timing of the stress and the lack of food could be a factor. When horses are under the greatest physical and mental stress they are not eating...running, jumping etc. I don't intend to insinuate that it is all negative. The horse may enjoy his work but have a physical response to running fast or working hard as part of their evolutionary make up for survival. Thoughts?

What's interesting in relation to NZ horses is that they probably live more naturally here than anywhere else but the same % get ulcers. So it's not just about turnout and grazing. I'd say stress is a key factor plus unnatural feeding ie the ratio of grain to forage, additives, the size of feeds and the timing - many hours of no food, isolation and boredom. I expect we'd get ulcers also.

If we look at the horse in nature as a guide to what its optimal lifestyle would be - it's pretty self evident that isolation and confinement are unnatural and stressful. In a herd, horses find their own level and form and maintain their relationships - a racehorse never gets that chance. They don't get to choose who they have to spend time living next to or turned out with (if they get turned out at all) and when they train and race they are thrown into the company of a large number of other hyped up strangers. It's all a recipe for stress.

What would be an interesting study is not to look at the horses who get ulcers but the ones who don't - what differentiates them in terms of temperament, age, management etc.

[equinelaw]

Except although some COTHrs actually took the time to post actual studies nobody bothered to look at those. Broodmares out all day--ulcers. Race horses out or in the same. People actually took the time to post just a sample of the studies that sort of show its not stall time or boredom or grazing. .

Don't even look at the studies that show PMU mares are fat and happy and alone and do nothing for months at a time. There is no proof horses get stressed because they are just hanging out.

I don't really think additional studies are needed as people just believe what they want to believe anyway. Why waste some grad students time?

As I sit here alone, reading several people repeat things they have heard but do not know and ignore things that are known but not heard I can almost positively guarantee stress does not cause ulcers:)

I am not ranting at anyone in particular, but you do not solve a mystery by repeating what you are told. You solve it by thinking up the answer.

Or feed alfalfa, prevent the ulcers and go away happy?

[sid]

Spending too many hours without hay in the belly.

[Auventera Two]

I say it is definitely the horse's metabolism that has a geat influence.
The study on race horses I read long ago stated that 80% of the horses tested in that study had ulcers, so why did the other 20% didn't under the same rather extreme stress conditions?:confused:

The most recent study I read said it was a 90/10 split, but still, you're right. Why don't some of them develop ulcers living in the same conditions, eating the same food, and on the same work schedule?

Good point Bluey :) I too think a lot of it is genetic and the horse's own personality. Again, my horse as an example, living out 24/7 with two other horses on 10 acres, hay and pasture in front of her face 24/7, worked a couple times a week, given only a cup or maybe two of grain mixed with no molasses beet pulp....and her ulcers were so bad that Merial took photos to use in their literature. What a mess.

So what gives???? I think it's personality and genetics. She's hot, sensitive, very intelligent, tends to worry and get "hyped up" easily, from halter lines, pure arab, etc.... I think ALL of that contributes. But one more consideration is that she was trailered somewhere to ride almost every weekend. She always had a haybag in the trailer, and she did eat. Not a lot, but some. As soon as we got to the trailhead, the hay bag went on the side of the trailer, and she stood there stuffing her face while I groomed and tacked. Trailering somewhere to ride is just part of her routine and it never seems to bother her much. (Well, not until RIGHT before she diagnosed with ulcers. Then she was getting really hot and dumb about being trailered.)

[Katy Watts]

www.horsetalk.co.nz/health/106-gastriculcers.shtml

from that link:
"The authors noted, however, that all horses in the study were receiving significant amounts of grain and supplemental feeds, which may have reduced the amount of time they spent grazing when out at pasture."

Good full text paper:
http://jas.fass.org/cgi/reprint/83/13_suppl/E18

products of fermentation IN THE STOMACH produces acids that splash up on the mucosal portion of the stomach and start the process of ulceration. IMO, I think that really high fructan/sugar forage can do the same thing.
Katy

[deltawave]

I'm inclined also to believe it's partially a temperament thing. IF we go down the road of "stress is related to ulcers", it may very well be that some horses, types of horses, breeds of horses, etc. might not be as physiologically "sensitive" to stress as others. The PMU mare might be perfectly happy and ulcer-free, given her phlegmatic personality, while a TB with its more choleric type of temperament would fret itself to death with the same routine. Of course I'm here using examples of personality types that are many hundreds of years old, so it's probably no more than random fancy on my part. :)

[grayarabpony]

Except although some COTHrs actually took the time to post actual studies nobody bothered to look at those. Broodmares out all day--ulcers. Race horses out or in the same. People actually took the time to post just a sample of the studies that sort of show its not stall time or boredom or grazing. .



I never look at any particular study as gospel and it's a mistake to do so. Quite frankly, there's a lot of studies out there that are bunk.

Now, I am not personally familiar with race horse routine, but this is what I have READ -- racehorses have haybags in front of them all of the time, but when they race, all food is pulled for about 12 hours in advance. So these horses are running on empty stomachs. Guess what's going to happen to them -- they're going to get ulcers, whether they are in most of the time, or out some of the time.

Another horse that's standing in a stall for 12 hours with nothing in front of him is going to have a hole burned in his stomach too. I don't care if he did get a flake of alfalfa at 7 am.

Those studies don't sort of show that stall time and grazing have nothing to do with ulcers.

[deltawave]

racehorses have haybags in front of them all of the time, but when they race, all food is pulled for about 12 hours in advance.

You're right, you shouldn't believe everything you've read. :)

[grayarabpony]

You're right, you shouldn't believe everything you've read. :)

Aren't you cute. So I guess Nack's biography of Secretariat is full of falsehoods?

I'm sure the horses aren't loaded up with food before they hit the track on race day.

[EqTrainer]

Maybe Cherry is on to something...

most horses here are supplementation w/additional amino acids. I never have ulcer issues here and horses who come w/them are not treated directly for them.

Then again, everything else here is ideal, for the most part. Durn, it's hard to isolate these things!

[grayarabpony]

I think it's safe to safe that it's impossible to isolate these things. :sadsmile:

Between getting my horse's feet back in shape and giving him a lysine supplement, he looks 10x better. I don't know about a lysine/ ulcer connection.... that could be an interesting study.

[equinelaw]

Maybe Cherry is on to something...

most horses here are supplementation w/additional amino acids. I never have ulcer issues here and horses who come w/them are not treated directly for them.

Then again, everything else here is ideal, for the most part. Durn, it's hard to isolate these things!

That is exactly the key. It is hard to isolate these things, but when studies come in that negate one part, we can narrow them down. Horses out at pasture get ulcers too, so we negate it all being for stalls or lack of food. They are out in groups so we negate isolation.

We have not figured out if grain is the problem or exercise on an empty stomach, but they unprotected part of the stomach is the top half. Where are the ulcers? Top or bottom?

I have been at a race track and hay was withheld for 12 ours before a race. But studies show that 12 ours isn't enough to cause ulcers and many horses that are at he track but not racing still have ulcers.

So grain could be a common denominator. But many horses who eat grain do not have ulcers. It correlates much more closely with amount of exercise (splashing). The faster the exercise the higher the rates of ulcers.

I have sat with horses for 12 hours at a time and taken gastric PH readings every 30 seconds throughout the day while they eat, sleep, eat grain and just stand around. My readings were the same as those from other studies. . I think maybe because its high protein and that's got lots of free places for H's to cling to. Lysine is a protein too. Hay reduces it

The OP asked what we think, not what we ave always been told or assumed or wish was the easy answer. You cannot think about it and ignore all the scientific studies. Otherwise you are just guessing.

Breed differences is a good thought on the subject. Anyone know how to use the poll function to start a thread for confirmed ulcers+breed?

There are certainly some examples on this thread from intelligent reliable posters giving accounts of grain free, stall free, stress free, work free horses getting ulcers. I doubt they are making it up.

I am not trying to argue, I just think we have group of really smart people here. If they wiped out any preconceptions and beliefs and started from scratch, what result would we find?

[deltawave]

Secretariat raced in the early 70s. Racing may be an archaic sport, but things HAVE evolved just a teeny bit since then. :)

[grayarabpony]

Such as recommendation by the Thoroughbred Safety Committee just this year to eliminate steroids and toe grabs racing-wide?

The racing industry overall is not a very compassionate one.

[grayarabpony]

We have not figured out if grain is the problem or exercise on an empty stomach, but they unprotected part of the stomach is the top half. Where are the ulcers? Top or bottom?

I have been at a race track and hay was withheld for 12 ours before a race. But studies show that 12 ours isn't enough to cause ulcers and many horses that are at he track but not racing still have ulcers.

So grain could be a common denominator. But many horses who eat grain do not have ulcers. It correlates much more closely with amount of exercise (splashing). The faster the exercise the higher the rates of ulcers.



My guess was that the less food there is in the stomach, the more the acid can splash when the horse is in work. I was at a seminar at NCSU last year, and I thought there was a study showing that hay/ grass in the stomach does help protect against acid damage -- I'll have to see if I can find the booklet, and if the study referred to was a published study or a preliminary study.

As far as the horses who were out -- how large of a turnout, how much grass/ hay, and how long had they been turned out? These are very important factors. Once a horse has ulcers, will they heal with enough forage and turnout? I'd think they would, but has anyone looked at this systematically?

The main problem that probably does occur with stalling, unless the horse isn't getting out every day, is standing there with nothing to eat day after day for hours while the stomach is producing acid. And being worked on an empty stomach. This happens in a lot of barns.

[Kolsch]

It correlates much more closely with amount of exercise (splashing). The faster the exercise the higher the rates of ulcers.



If I were a scientist, this is the area that I'd be focusing on the most. Isn't it known that the splashing is caused by the contraction of the abdominal muscles?

Going from that I'd be curious to see if having *too much* mass in the hindgut during exercise causes the stomach to be compressed even more. Too much mass= conformation, amount of feed in the hindgut, amount of omentum fat, fetus development. I'd also be looking more closely at high aerobic exercise and peristalysis/blood flow to the stomach. (I know there are studies that link high aerobic exercise to reduced blood flow= reduced protection to the upper portion of the stomach)

I just wonder how they did it back in the days where horses were required to actually work 8+ hours a day. If our horses today are developing ulcers while having hay in front of them all day, kept in box stalls and worked 1-2 hours daily, how did the livery horses, conestoga wagon horses, cattle drive horses not fall down dead on a daily basis? People back then depended on those horses with their lives. I wonder what their feeding practices were back before selenium supplementation, amino acids, copper zinc ratios....

I don't think these horses look as if they were in poor condition at all.
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~pacahs/conwagon.jpg
My horses would faint in horror at the thought of so much work.

[deltawave]

It's sort of like pondering the "healthier lifestyles" humans had in days of old. Which is a euphemism for "rarely enough to eat, exposure to horrible hazards and a really good chance of dying before you're 40". ;)

Horses weren't looked on quite the same way "way back when" as they are now. On the one hand, they were not disposable, and a family's well-being might very well depend on the health and vigor of their horses. On the other hand, there were usually plenty more where that came from, and people probably didn't anticipate having a horse around for 25 years, nor would they want to--when its useful days were over, it went "down the road". Equine geriatrics just didn't exist, and probably a lot of the problems that go with it (Cushings, and the long-term sequelae of other disorders) just weren't in the general consciousness.

Also you didn't have a lot of "hothouse flower" type animals around. If a horse couldn't hack it, it probably wasn't used for breeding even if it had spots or a good canter or whatever. If the animal was a hard keeper, it might be sold for an easier one, and this sort of selection kept the hardy, healthy, tolerant-of-everything horses in the majority. They are out there even still, believe it or not. All evidence on these threads to the contrary, PLENTY of horses have zero problems with these modern maladies. :)

[grayarabpony]

If I were a scientist, this is the area that I'd be focusing on the most. Isn't it known that the splashing is caused by the contraction of the abdominal muscles?

Going from that I'd be curious to see if having *too much* mass in the hindgut during exercise causes the stomach to be compressed even more. Too much mass= conformation, amount of feed in the hindgut, amount of omentum fat, fetus development. I'd also be looking more closely at high aerobic exercise and peristalysis/blood flow to the stomach. (I know there are studies that link high aerobic exercise to reduced blood flow= reduced protection to the upper portion of the stomach)

I just wonder how they did it back in the days where horses were required to actually work 8+ hours a day. If our horses today are developing ulcers while having hay in front of them all day, kept in box stalls and worked 1-2 hours daily, how did the livery horses, conestoga wagon horses, cattle drive horses not fall down dead on a daily basis? People back then depended on those horses with their lives. I wonder what their feeding practices were back before selenium supplementation, amino acids, copper zinc ratios....

I don't think these horses look as if they were in poor condition at all.
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~pacahs/conwagon.jpg
My horses would faint in horror at the thought of so much work.

The thing is, in many of the barns I've been in, hay is NOT in front of the horses all day. It was the main thing I fought with BOs about, no matter if I paid extra money, cleaned the stall myself, etc, etc.

[Gayla]

So maybe there is a genetic predisposition that should be looked into. The place to start with that research would be to first look into prevalence in breeds. If TBs have it more than Apps etc

[equinelaw]

We can post a poll, but its hard to say if owners of certain breeds are just more likely to test for ulcers. Still, it would be a start.

I have seen studies with TB and QH and PMU mares of the draftX type.