Selling a horse nightmare

[Dussel]

Hi All,
I had a horse in training for the last year. This horse was not for me. To wide. So I put him up for sell with the trainer in charge of it. He had a jumper trainer try him and they love him. He really like to jump. But that trainer wanted me to put him in training then he would sell him. Well someone with my trainer decide she had to have him. So great! Did the per purchase exam and well the x-rays showed that the front ankles had a lip on the bone. The vet told her well he could have arthritis for it sooner or later. The trainer said not to buy the horse. I was willing to give this horse to her. Thinking well it would be hard to him sell now. But she would give him a great home. I also would take him back and put him in pasture if anything ever happen to him. Trainer still say no! She loved this horse and was heart broken. That is the story that I got. I brought him home and had my vet look at the x rays. He said no way to tell if it had grown there or it has the way the bones where on him. He would put the horse back to work. He said he is nice horse and should have a job. He is 5 year old. Like I said I don't like how wide he is and I have another that I love so one has to go.
I decide to call a friend of mine that is a jumper trainer. She was looking for a jumper and could not fine one to pass the vet check either. So I made the same deal with her. It would help her until she found what she was looking for. She love this horse to. He was great over fences did not spook or do anything bad. But he just not a jumper,not fast enough.
So she said she knows of some JR riders that don't have allot of money and would I sell him. I said great. Well someone fell in love with my horse. I was happy to have a kid just ride him. Told told my friend about the vet check but had broke the cd in half. So I had the vet do them again. They saw nothing at all. They decided to do a per purchase exam on him. Well guess what he passes with no worries. Now this is a very we known clinic in north CA they are known for finding any little thing wrong. I can't believe that he would pass their and not with the other vet. Is that weird or what.
I have learn a great lesson. If you are selling your horse ask to be at the exam. By the way my trainer had another horse to sell her other clinic that same day. But I guess it worked out because my horse will be doing something he really loves and that is jumping. I was wanting him to be a dressage horse and so was the other buyer.
Dussel

[Whitfield Farm Hanoverians]

I had a vet from the Univ. of FL tell me that a young stallion "failed" the pp exam. I mean he sounded like the horse was going to fall over dead lame before we could lead him back to the barn! I sent the same disc of digital xrays that this vet took to Rood & Riddle in Kentucky that does the screening for stallion prospects for the AHS. The vet actually laughed when I asked him about the "problem" this youngster had. He totally disagreed with the other vet. Says that he sees horses with tons more changes & that the area concerned on this horse would not pose any problems. Also my local vet who has equine hospital said the same thing, that the horse was okay.
I say, don't sweat it until you send the disc to a top facility such as Rood & Riddle. Also the young stallion passed the AHS requirements for xrays with flying colors. Go figure.

[slc2]

Not everyone knows how to look at xrays, but sometimes it is just one good opinion that is different from another good opinion.

I had the same set read by two vets, and one said the horse had sesamoiditis and a number of other serious conditions. The other vet said, 'HUH?' In another case THREE vets didn't completely agree on an xray read, in another, two vets found different things wrong in xrays and both stated they had concerns about 'intended use'.

There is a lot of individual variation in xrays that is normal. It can be very hard to see the difference. The opinions of the xrays have to be balanced against the observed soundness of the horse.

It's good to get a second opinion on xrays of course, but if the horse is not serviceably sound, and a vet says he's got good xrays to a seller, the situation is more complex. Xrays aren't everything. Ultrasound, scints and other views can show other problems. But buyers usually back away based on xrays and don't spend additional money on ultrasounds, etc.

[lindasp62]

I agree with Whitfield Farm Hanoverians...send to R&R or other top clinic for second (or third, or fourth..) opinion, especially considering the intended use for the horse and the price you would be paying for the horse.

That said, I had a vet once do a PP exam who would "pass" or "fail"- just like that. No other real considerations. Then, I got another vet. Had 2nd vet do a PPE for a horse I was interested in...he didn't believe in the Pass-Fail scenario...but took completely into account the horses intended usage, at what level, the horse's current health status, etc, and would only "recommend:" if this horse would suit that purpose or not. This second vet was also so thorough...he found EVERY little thing wrong with this horse. My Gosh...you would have thought that the horse was just some broken-down back yard lawn ornament! I think that the vet, also taking the intended usage into consideration, also had to cover his own arse in case anything cropped up later...hence, all the nit-picking (for which I am thankful for...still gave me a great PPE). I ended up buying this horse...he is great, done 2nd level Dressage and Novice Eventing...without any lamness or other health problems...

[Whitfield Farm Hanoverians]

Yes Linda, no vet is supposed to "pass/fail" horses anymore. I had both of the other vets say that to me. Went out with the covered wagon.
I always prefer a vet who understands the demands placed on a sport horse & one that reads LOTS of xrays of top horses so that the truly have a feel for those demands.

[FriesianX]

Very few horses will have "perfect" xrays anyway! With the digital xrays, so much more shows up then in the "good ol' days". I second (or would that be third) the comment, get a 2nd opinion before giving up. You may not sell the horse to THAT buyer, but at least you go forward armed with knowledge, and can advertise the horse with current xrays and vet opinions on the xrays.

[lindasp62]

Yes Linda, no vet is supposed to "pass/fail" horses anymore. I had both of the other vets say that to me. Went out with the covered wagon.
I always prefer a vet who understands the demands placed on a sport horse & one that reads LOTS of xrays of top horses so that the truly have a feel for those demands.


That "pass-fail" vet....that was only 4 years ago!!!!!!!! Come to think of it...he DID show up in a covered wagon!! :lol::lol:

[merrygoround]

I happened to hear a vet telling another about a PP he had just done on one of the 2nd vet's patients. He saw something "different"" in the eye, so failed it. :(

Second vet walked away muttering under his breathe, "Idiot"!! :mad:

One would hope the owners took their horse to an ophthalmologist for a second opinion.:yes:

[Dussel]

I just haven't sold that many horses. But the thing that bother me the most is that my trainer did not suggest a second opinion. All he could say was NO put him out to pasture. Now this horse has never took one lame step. I was so mad and still very upset how he handle the hole thing. The trainer just wanted to her to buy the other horse. The funny thing is that horse is 4 and has hock problem all ready. So how is that horse better than the other?? :confused:
I know that the only way you learn is to fail. That is what I will take from this. But that trainer will not see me again.:mad:
Dussel

[Bellfleur]

I just had a 4 yr old lovely hunter horse same deal. This guy is really an amazing prospect too! Lovely jump where he pretty much adjusts himself to fit the combinations perfectly, huge step and a natural lead change, gaits to win the hack at Devon or WEF. Great temperament too. Whole package in a young horse.

I thought after the PP that I might as well turn him into a pasture ornament. :no::no::no: I was ready to give him away to my agent (who quickly did say Oh give him to me when I called so upset.)before the buyers trainer said "what!! no don't do that. 80% of the horses in my barn have something like this on the X-Rays" He has a small spur in his one hock. The potential buyer made it sound like his vet said hock was going to collapse the next minute. I was told his vet said "do not walk away from this one, run".

This from a horse that had passed all of the flexions (tough ones too). He never had so much a scrape on that hock either. He also had a thermography with nothing there either. He has never had a lame step in his life either. I foaled him so I know exactly what has happened to him his entire life.

I took the same X-ray to 3 different well respected vets and they all said basically 'Yep he has a small spur on a non weight surface - generally NOT clinically significant in warmbloods.' They all seemed to be of the opinion. That he was born with this and it has pretty much the same odds of bothering him in the future as the other 'perfect' hock.

Vets seem to all see different things when they look at the x-rays. I do wonder how they can all look at the same picture and see so many different futures for the same horse.

[Dune]

I just haven't sold that many horses. But the thing that bother me the most is that my trainer did not suggest a second opinion. All he could say was NO put him out to pasture. Now this horse has never took one lame step. I was so mad and still very upset how he handle the hole thing. The trainer just wanted to her to buy the other horse. The funny thing is that horse is 4 and has hock problem all ready. So how is that horse better than the other?? :confused:
I know that the only way you learn is to fail. That is what I will take from this. But that trainer will not see me again.:mad:
Dussel


I've seen this happen SO many times, but the last time was special because I did not care for the gal that vetted my friend's horse. She was a very snotty lady with more $$ than she knew what to do with, my friend had bred for this young stallion prospect and he was such a lovely boy at a decent price. The snotty lady's vet said NO way the horse had a major problem with both hind suspensories....this was even though he was sound and in work.:rolleyes: Another gal came along a few months later, tried him, loved him, vetted him...just fine. The horse has now shown PSG successfully and is schooling all the GP work and has won national awards coming up the levels. The snotty lady? She went overseas and spent over twice as much for a different horse and they are doing well enough, good for her, but she could've bought my friend's horse for much less $$. :winkgrin:

[Aven]

I have had that happen.

But then I have the reverse happen. Horse passes with flying colours. Has been the local Dressage high point champ, shown jumper, field hunted and never took a lame step.

People have him 5 months and he starts going lame. So they assume it was a pre existing condition!

[Kyzteke]

I

That said, I had a vet once do a PP exam who would "pass" or "fail"- just like that.

This is how you can tell you don't have a really experienced vet in terms of a pre-purchase.

The job of the vet is to evaluate the horse and give the buyer info on their physical condition -- pluses & minus'. Unless the horse is currently lame, when it comes to predicting future issues they are simply guessing.

So many people think pros like vets are God and must really "know", but they are simply professionals making their best, (albeit very well educated) GUESS....ESPECIALLY when trying to predict what will happen.

As a geriatric nurse I often have family members ask me when their ill mother/father/grandmother, etc will die. You can tell they really want an answer, but those questions are just a shot in the dark at best.

I think if it can be arranged you should always try to find a vet who actually treats many horses that perform the same sport you have in mind. In other words, endurance vets for an endurance horse, dressage vets for that, etc.

That's why those big outfits (and I bet there is even a better one somewhere in Wellington or Calif. for instance for dressage) are best to look at x-rays.

I really trust my local vet school (Washington State University), but this isn't exactly the dressage capitol of the world. If I was going to spend serious $$$ on a dressage prospect, and there was a question about x-rays, they would not be my first choice to consult.

Besides, you can have a bone chip removed...it's not that expensive. I assume the horse doesn't actually have a bone "lip."

[Kyzteke]

I just haven't sold that many horses. But the thing that bother me the most is that my trainer did not suggest a second opinion. All he could say was NO put him out to pasture. Now this horse has never took one lame step. I was so mad and still very upset how he handle the hole thing. The trainer just wanted to her to buy the other horse. The funny thing is that horse is 4 and has hock problem all ready. So how is that horse better than the other?? :confused:
I know that the only way you learn is to fail. That is what I will take from this. But that trainer will not see me again.:mad:
Dussel

Dussel: Note to self:
1. Get new vet
2. Get new trainer

Sounds like both are -- well, idiots might be too strong a term -- but they aren't exactly a strong support team <g>

[Dussel]

Kyzteke,
I do agree with you 100%. The vet that did the vet check was not my vet but the choice of the person buying the horse and the horse trainer. My vet said the horse should continue to work that he was a very nice horse.
As far as the trainer. I have moved on. I feel that he should not have dismissed my horse and just threw his hands up and said well put him out to pasture. He will go lame. I was his client to. Why not say get another opinion and lets see. Cost me a the sell of a horse. Plus the sell took over two months to happen. Trainer again said well let her try him out and see if they get along. Then prolonged the vet checks.... Then she did not have the money? But then another client had a horse for sell and everyone in this barn was like that would have been a great horse for you. To bad you bought the other one? You should buy this one. You see what a mess. This trainer has no ethics when selling horse to his students. Or no ethic to his other clients that have their horse in training like me. Yes I have moved on to someone else that has a lot more experience in training and selling horses. So just could be that best thing that has ever happen to me. Also for my horses. Just want to thank all of you for the input on this. It has help me to move on.
Dussel

[PhoenixFarm]

This story was related to me by another professional, a well known seller in the east:

This person had bought a horse overseas as an investment. Horse passed the prepurchase in Germany, and her American vet viewed the radiographs and declared them clean. Horse comes to US. Lovely animal, first buyer puts a deposit down about three months after it hits us soil. Passes clinical, but vet A says he sees some changes in a stifle he doesn't like. Recommends the buyer pass.

Buyer two come along a month later. Is told about prepurchase A, (and price on horse has now dropped $5,000). Buyer two loves horse, has horse vetted by Vet B. Vet B says the horses stifles are picture perfect, and that Vet A is crazy. However, Vet B is VERY concerned about the radiograph of the left front ankle. Recommends that Buyer 2 pass. Horse, who has still never taken a lame step, starts showing, and wins his first three outings. Buyer Three comes along, is told about prepurchases A and B. Horse's price has now dropped $7500, even though he is sound, in work, and winning. Fans of foreshadowing should be able to guess what happens next:

Vet C says the horse has perfect stifles and ankles, but the radiograph of the right front foot is definitely going to a problem, and in fact a smart person would never jump a horse like this. Recommends they pass on the horse.

At this point owner says the he!! with it, and decides to keep horse. Reportedly said, "Either he's fine and will be a great horse for me, or all of his legs will fall off at once, but it's a risk I'm willing to take."

Horse had a successful career lasting nearly two decades.

[Eireamon]

Some vets are just shocking at reading radiographs.

I had a horse for sale and buyers very keen so had it vet checked. They got a small animal vet who flexed and said no something wrong there. Suggested they keep riding the horse at my facility for 3 weeks and then XRay.
XRay comes and finds fetlock changes. Buyers walk away.

The horse has never taken a lame step in its life so I ask for the radiographs to be sent to my vet. My Vet says rubbish. Nothing to be concerned about.

I readvertised the horse 4 months later but at half the price. Buyer comes very happy with nice well schooled horse. Asks why so well priced. I tell them about the prior check saying that Number one vet failed check but mine said Horse fine. I am being upfront and so dropped the price.
Xrays can be sent to their vet for independant assessment.

So I get their vet to call the vet who holds the Xrays and just ask them to get them sent.
But NO Number one vet gives a bad prognosis to vet 2 and suggests not worth even getting the Xrays sent.
This is relayed back to the prospective purchaser who has now gone cold even though I told them number one vet is an idiot and if their vet looked at the XRays himself he would see that.

Understandably I am furious. Number one vet was just asked to sent the Xrays that I had paid for to another vet. He was not asked for an opinion.
So I lost another sale. By this time I was so mad that I just withdraw the horse from the market and kept her.

The horse stayed perfectly sound till it had a Hunting Accident where it broke its leg and had to be laid to rest.

I have told buyers of future horses that have wanted to have them vet checked that I will not have 'that XYZ' vet on the property. He is not a horse vet and is an idiot in my opinion.
If they choose to use him I will simply not sell them the horse. I will not go through that stupidity again.

[actcasual]

I'm not sure any two vets would agree on a bleeding head wound.
How much time in vet school is actually devoted to taking good X-rays and being able to interpret them? It can't be very much, especially compared to the 4 years or so that MDs spend specializing in radiology.
Your usual "pre-purchase" vet is rarely even an equine specialist. Even then it doesn't mean they understand intended usage. One of the most irritating pre-purchase vets was an excellent veterinarian who did specialize in horses. Vet was palsies with some fairly reputable trainers, though, and expected everyone had the same requirements as those professional friends who bought and sold mid-range show horses.
So every training level dressage pack-around horse or amateur-friendly 2'6" hunter that went through this vet suddenly needed to be FEI sound.
Some vets seem to believe nitpicking a horse to death in the pre-purchase demonstrates their knowledge and is good for the reputation.

[thatmoody]

Reading any kind of imaging is an art - one vet says my dog has lymphoma, the other that he's fine, from the same x-ray (he has lymphoma, btw, confirmed with a liver biopsy).

We just had a very thorough PPE done on the stallion we were buying and the vet was great. He had some potential issues so we asked for a release of prior history from the previous vet, and made our decision based on comparisons between his then and now. But I can for sure see how the process could go horribly wrong. I do PPE's, but I also trust my gut. I've never followed up on one that I've passed on, though - that would be interesting.