Feed Question - What's Missing?

[Tiffani B]

If anything...?

I have a 10 year old Saddlebred show horse in fairly heavy training (meaning, he is worked 30-45 minutes per day, 6 days a week). He is turned out in a large dry lot every day and stalled at night.

He is currently getting two meals a day, both of which consist of 3 pounds of oats, 2 pounds of Ultium, 1/2 cup of BOSS, and 3-4 flakes of grass hay. He is supplemented with MSM.

I want to be certain he is getting the correct nutrition, and I don't know a LOT about feeding horses. Everything I read online just ends up confusing me more.

He is in lovely condition - shiny coat, great mental health, perfect energy level. I would like to put a few more pounds on him (he's built like a basketball player - tall and lean!), especially before show season comes around again (as the season wears on, he drops weight from the stress and workload).

Any input would be valued. Thank you!

[Melyni]

If anything...?

I have a 10 year old Saddlebred show horse in fairly heavy training (meaning, he is worked 30-45 minutes per day, 6 days a week). He is turned out in a large dry lot every day and stalled at night.

He is currently getting two meals a day, both of which consist of 3 pounds of oats, 2 pounds of Ultium, 1/2 cup of BOSS, and 3-4 flakes of grass hay. He is supplemented with MSM.

I want to be certain he is getting the correct nutrition, and I don't know a LOT about feeding horses. Everything I read online just ends up confusing me more.

He is in lovely condition - shiny coat, great mental health, perfect energy level. I would like to put a few more pounds on him (he's built like a basketball player - tall and lean!), especially before show season comes around again (as the season wears on, he drops weight from the stress and workload).

Any input would be valued. Thank you!

One good vitamin/mineral supplement. And personally I'd change the BOSS to whole flax. Otherwise sounds like he is doing fine.
To get more weight on him the best way is to give him more hay. Horses do best eating forages rather tha grains.
Yours
MW

[Tiffani B]

He can't physically eat anymore hay, so that's not an option. He nibbles it all day/night - when it's feeding time, he's just finishing up his ration from the last feeding. So I don't know how to get him to eat more...

They do have an alfalfa/grass mixture. I'm not sure if switching to that would help?

As for the BOSS, I like that it keeps his coat dark. He's a very very dark bay, almost black, and there really aren't any supplements I can give him for his coat that are legal, and that I feel would benefit him other than coat color. And, being turned out, I don't want him to get sun bleached.

Dumb reason, I know - and if something else is better, I will definitely switch him. So please educate me, what would the whole flax do for him that BOSS is not?

[Penthilisea]

You don't mention how many pounds of hay he recieves in those flakes. Ideally a horse will eat 15% of its body weight in forage per day. If he cannot consume this via hay, you might consider adding addtional types of roughage to his diet. It does sound like a good multi vit couldn't hurt, but everything else looks adequate- as long as he has access to food 24/7 you're in good stead!

[hrsgirl07]

are you happy with his energy level?

[Equibrit]

Why no grass?

[Tiffani B]

are you happy with his energy level?

Yes, it's just about right. He's easygoing, mild mannered, doesn't spook, but gives his all at shows.

[Tiffani B]

Why no grass?

It's not an option at the farm. I'd love to put him on grass but they have limited pastures. There is a smaller grass paddock he goes in about once a week (rotates with other horses) but it's pretty much grazed down to dirt.

[hrsgirl07]

They only thing that I would possible add is a little bit of corn oil on his grain, not a ton, just a little drizzle am and pm. PLEASE ALLOW ABOUT A MONTH BEFORE TRYING TO UP THE AMOUT YOU ARE USING, INCREASING CORN IN THE DIET CAN CAUSE INCREAED ENERGY!!!

[Melyni]

You don't mention how many pounds of hay he recieves in those flakes. Ideally a horse will eat 15% of its body weight in forage per day. If he cannot consume this via hay, you might consider adding addtional types of roughage to his diet. It does sound like a good multi vit couldn't hurt, but everything else looks adequate- as long as he has access to food 24/7 you're in good stead!

Oops decimal point in the wrong place, a horse should eat 1.5- 2.5% of it's bodyweight per day dry matter intake.


Tiffani, you could change some of his hay for the higher feed value timothy/alfalfa, and monitor behavior, some horses react to alfalfa by getting hot so don't change it all at once, do it gradually.

I prefer whole flax to BOSS for several reasons. Flax is higher in fatty acids (its the fatty acids that help with coat color) and the Black Oil Sunflower Seeds tend to get mold into the seed coat. You don't give that much BUT there is always a slight risk of aflatoxin poisoning with BOSS. Not a big risk but a slight one.

So in general I'd say you would be better off with the flax.
JMHO.
MW

[JB]

If anything...?

I have a 10 year old Saddlebred show horse in fairly heavy training (meaning, he is worked 30-45 minutes per day, 6 days a week).
That is really pretty light training ;)

He is currently getting two meals a day, both of which consist of 3 pounds of oats, 2 pounds of Ultium, 1/2 cup of BOSS, and 3-4 flakes of grass hay. He is supplemented with MSM.
6lb of oats is about 4 more than I would feel comfortable feeding any horse - too much sugar/starch. If he physically won't eat anymore, and dribbles, some of that may be related to how much sugar is going into his system. Or teeth issues, or ulcers, or both. Dry lots and high grain diets is a ripe environment for the development of ulcers. Also, it's been strongly suggested that meals high in sugar can cause a horse to reduce the amount of forage he'll eat. So, *I* would halve the oats and add another flake of hay to each feeding, and would make absolutely sure he is getting at least 2% of his desired body weight in hay a day. If he's without hay ever, that is another ingredient for ulcer development.

The specs for Ultium says it needs to be fed at 7.5lb/day for an 1100lb horse in moderate work in order to meet nutritional needs. You're at half that. Even 1000lb is 6.8lb/day.

So, either add a vit/min supplement to this diet, or swap the Ultium for a ration balancer and some additional calories, such as hay pellets or beet pulp or rice bran or boss, or some combination of that which suits you both. That takes care of nutrition and calories.

[Tiffani B]

Well, everything is relative. ;) He works at a brisk trot and collected canter, usually pulling my fat booty around in the cart, for 30-45 minutes, with very little walking except as a warmup and cooldown. From what I've observed (and therefore, what I'm basing my evaluation of the "strenuousness" of his workout), compared to the other show riders at the barn (mostly Dressage and hunt) he is worked FAR more at the trot and canter, and less at the walk. But regardless - he does work hard and is in excellent shape. :)

He weighs less than 1000 pounds, probably closer to 900. He's tall but very narrow (gotta love the Saddlebred physique LOL) and fine boned.

I was always told the same thing about feeding oats (ulcers, sugar, etc), but I recently discovered this article. Any thoughts? http://www.thehorseshoof.com/oats1.htm

I'll explore the flax as an option. I'll talk to the BO next time I see her - I know I'm getting low on BOSS so it might be a good time to do a changeover.

Thanks again for everyone's feedback and have a wonderful Thanksgiving!

[Equibrit]

Your horse would do a lot better if you found somewhere that had grass.

[sunridge1]

Tiffany,

I would try the alfalfa hay. I feed about a 70/30 alfalfa, grass mix and everyone is fat here. From 25 year olds to weanlings. They do not get any feed. But no one is working right now either. Easiest solution for you to try.

Mary

[JB]

Well, everything is relative. ;) He works at a brisk trot and collected canter, usually pulling my fat booty around in the cart, for 30-45 minutes, with very little walking except as a warmup and cooldown. From what I've observed (and therefore, what I'm basing my evaluation of the "strenuousness" of his workout), compared to the other show riders at the barn (mostly Dressage and hunt) he is worked FAR more at the trot and canter, and less at the walk. But regardless - he does work hard and is in excellent shape. :)
I understand, really :) Exercise IS relative. But really, 30-45 minutes of t/c work is not very hard at all in the grand scheme of how hard a horse can work to be in really good shape. I'm just saying - I'd call that moderate work at best. I ride my WB gelding 30-45 minutes most weekday mornings as that's about all the time I have, and that's nowhere near enough work for him.

He weighs less than 1000 pounds, probably closer to 900. He's tall but very narrow (gotta love the Saddlebred physique LOL) and fine boned.
Ok, so if you want him to put some weight on, you should feed him like a 1000lb horse and not the 900. Also, you have to figure out if the "weight" is actually needing to come from more calories, or more amino acids to allow his muscles to bulk up properly.

I was always told the same thing about feeding oats (ulcers, sugar, etc), but I recently discovered this article. Any thoughts? http://www.thehorseshoof.com/oats1.htm

Link doesn't work, and I can't find that in the articles. Oats ARE a nice grain - full spectrum of amino acids, in some quantity, for one. But they ARE roughly 50% NSC, and too much of that can lead to digestive issues. I feed oats - 2lb for the OTTB mare, a cup or so for the 2 boys who don't need weight. I wouldn't feed more than 2lb though.

I'll explore the flax as an option. I'll talk to the BO next time I see her - I know I'm getting low on BOSS so it might be a good time to do a changeover.
Just know that flax isn't a source of calories. BUT, because of the high Omega 3, it can help in the weight department for some horses. And, Omega 3 is something your horse is missing enough of given that there is no grass.

Thanks again for everyone's feedback and have a wonderful Thanksgiving!
You too! :)

Your horse would do a lot better if you found somewhere that had grass.
That's just not always possible. Should everyone on Southern California move? ;)

[Tiffani B]

Your horse would do a lot better if you found somewhere that had grass.

Sigh.

Helpful, constructive replies only please. Let's work with what I've got...

[bludejavu]

Tiffani - weigh your hay amount if you have a kitchen scale, let me know what the weight is, and I can tell you how many calories your horse is consuming on a daily basis. It's how I start with formulating my feeding program. If you can't actually weigh your hay on a scale, you can find something in your kitchen or otherwise, that weighs 5 pounds-pick your hay up in one hand, and the 5# item in the other and at least you'll know if you're feeding less than 5# of hay by comparison. He may be picking at his hay because he's not crazy about the taste - I've had that happen before when I tried to feed a shipment of Alicia Bermuda - I had to return it because after two weeks of force feeding it, they still weren't crazy about it.

3# Oats - 4350 cal. (I wouldn't feed quite that much oats either, as someone else suggested - pretty high in starch - I usually don't feed more than 2#)

2# Ultium - I don't know exactly what the calorie count is for Ultium but can make an educated guess that it is approx. 1500 cal. per #, giving you 3,000 cal total

1/2# BOSS - 1320 cal.

This gives you a total of 8,670 cal not including hay. Saddlebreds are high maintenance for the most part - even if they are idle. My easiest keeper still needs at least 22,000 cal a day to maintain weight. Add light work to that and she needs 25,000 cal a day. I'm betting your horse isn't eating nearly enough hay to give him enough calories to bulk up more. I agree with Sunridge - don't increase your grains unless you increase Ultium. Add in some Alfalfa - about 1,000 calories per #. First, you need to figure out exactly what he is eating as far as grass hay is concerned though.

Hope this helps!

[Tiffani B]

Ok, so if you want him to put some weight on, you should feed him like a 1000lb horse and not the 900. Also, you have to figure out if the "weight" is actually needing to come from more calories, or more amino acids to allow his muscles to bulk up properly.

Probably a bit of both. He is built like a basketball player, tall and thin, with more lean muscle than bulk (as opposed to a QH built like a football player LOL!). I'd like more bulk on him overall, especially over his ribs and hip, as well as more muscle (which we are working on, by gradually making his workouts harder ;)). Here is a picture of him: http://www.indiansummerfarm.com/images/CarsonSummerfun1.jpg

He's improved some since then (this was from July) but I don't have a more recent photo. He had almost 2 years off loafing in a pasture, and only returned to work at the end of April. So he's a work in progress...

Link doesn't work, and I can't find that in the articles.

I'm sorry, I left off the "L". Here it is again, corrected: http://www.thehorseshoof.com/oats1.html

I like everything about him right now - coat condition, energy level... even if he stayed at his current weight/muscle tone he would be fine. But - I want to make sure he is getting optimal nutrition to avoid any possible issues in the future, and is at a sustainable weight for his workload (I think he is just slightly below where he should be for the work he does).

And, I am concerned with the calcium/phosphorus ratio in his diet. I know oats are very high in phosphorus and I'm not sure he's getting enough calcium to balance that out. I can't seem to find a "calcium only" supplement - they all have phosphorus, too.

So it sounds like my best option would be to decrease the oats and increase the Ultium. The Ultium would give him additional fat calories, to add weight, as well as more nutrients. Unfortunately, the Ultium is expensive, which is why I'm trying to find another way to do this...

I'll have to price out a good multivitamin and the flax. It might be a wash...

[Tiffani B]

Tiffani - weigh your hay amount if you have a kitchen scale, let me know what the weight is, and I can tell you how many calories your horse is consuming on a daily basis. It's how I start with formulating my feeding program. If you can't actually weigh your hay on a scale, you can find something in your kitchen or otherwise, that weighs 5 pounds-pick your hay up in one hand, and the 5# item in the other and at least you'll know if you're feeding less than 5# of hay by comparison. He may be picking at his hay because he's not crazy about the taste - I've had that happen before when I tried to feed a shipment of Alicia Bermuda - I had to return it because after two weeks of force feeding it, they still weren't crazy about it.

3# Oats - 4350 cal. (I wouldn't feed quite that much oats either, as someone else suggested - pretty high in starch - I usually don't feed more than 2#)

2# Ultium - I don't know exactly what the calorie count is for Ultium but can make an educated guess that it is approx. 1500 cal. per #, giving you 3,000 cal total

1/2# BOSS - 1320 cal.

This gives you a total of 7,700 cal not including hay. Saddlebreds are high maintenance for the most part - even if they are idle. My easiest keeper still needs at least 22,000 cal a day to maintain weight. Add light work to that and she needs 25,000 cal a day. I'm betting your horse isn't eating nearly enough hay to give him enough calories to bulk up more. I agree with Sunridge - don't increase your grains unless you increase Ultium. Add in some Alfalfa - about 1,000 calories per #. First, you need to figure out exactly what he is eating as far as grass hay is concerned though.

Hope this helps!

Thanks Susan! I won't be out to the barn until Monday (ahhh, long holiday weekend, yaay!) but I'll weigh his hay then.

I'm sorry if I gave the impression he is picking at his hay. That is not the case. He LOVES hay. He buries himself in it and his eyes glaze over. I meant that he eats it all day long... unlike some horses who get their hay and grain in the morning, gobble up their grain, then eat some hay, and then use the rest for bedding. He eats it ALL (usually he eats his hay before his grain), even nibbling out the strands from under his manure piles... he works on his hay all day long. (And God forbid you get between him and his hay LOL!)

Oh - double check your math. I get a total of 8670 plus hay, times two. :)

[bludejavu]

It was the calculator's fault :winkgrin:. All corrected. I was baking a dessert and kept rushing to the oven to check doneness so I added it up too quick - plus, I stink at numbers LOL.

If he's cleaning his hay up, then it comes down to just how much he is consuming - grass hay is 800 to 875 cal./lb. If he eats slow, then he fills up quick, unlike some of the chow hounds that I have who wolf their hay down before they even know what they're eating.

[Tiffani B]

Yes, he is a slow eater. He munches all day on his hay, and it even takes him awhile to eat his grain (back and forth between them). I'd much rather he eat that way than gulp it down without chewing LOL!

[pines4equines]

I'd second the extra hay. Even if your horse doesn't clean it all up, some horses are pretty finicky about certain pieces of grass in their hay. They'll pick out the good stuff and leave the rest. That "rest" can always be put out in the field for others to munch on so there is no waste.

I personally way overfeed hay. We feed NY 1st cut hay and go through about two bales for two horses a day. Yes, there's waste but I believe it's better to overfeed a plain hay than go crazy over grain. I see alot of people fussing over making sure their horse has eaten every last stem prior to feeding the next flake. I say waste away and throw another flake even if there's still some in there...

PS: What a super shot of your Saddlebred! Can you tell us about his feet? Is there any extra care regarding the shoes? How much does a set of shoes cost? Sorry, just curious. Your horse's coat is simply lovely!

[JB]

Yes, he is a slow eater. He munches all day on his hay, and it even takes him awhile to eat his grain (back and forth between them). I'd much rather he eat that way than gulp it down without chewing LOL!

Not saying he has them, but that is one symptom of ulcers.

[Tiffani B]

PS: What a super shot of your Saddlebred! Can you tell us about his feet? Is there any extra care regarding the shoes? How much does a set of shoes cost? Sorry, just curious. Your horse's coat is simply lovely!

Thanks! I love my boy... I know this isn't a Saddle Seat forum so I don't want to overwhelm the thread with "SS stuff" but I can certainly answer questions... you're welcome to PM me if you'd like to know more.

His feet don't require any care above and beyond the normal... he's reset about every 7-8 weeks. I do have to be careful not to let his feet get sopping wet to prevent water from getting under the pads and causing thrush, so baths are kept to a minimum and he cannot galavant around in puddles (although he is such a diva he would never consider playing in mud LOL).

A new set of shoes costs about $300, and a reset runs me around $185 (for all four feet). My farrier is on the low side - the last one ran me about $300 for a reset and over $500 for a new set of shoes. Fortunately the shoes last several years, since they are only worn during show season, and are reworked as needed instead of thrown away for new.

JB, I'll get him scoped for ulcers. I haven't seen any outward signs of them, but it's certainly possible given his diet and lifestyle. Also, knowing how ASBs are traditionally worked, fed and housed, I wouldn't be surprised. :( I've only had him a few months and I'm working on getting him back to peak shape, so an ulcer scope was on my list of things to do.

[EqTrainer]

The back and forth to the food thing would make me wonder about ulcers, too. The ideal behaviour at feeding time is attentive but not psycho, and quietly eating their feed until finished.

ASB's are prone to metabolic issues. It's genetic. I would not up this horses Ultium or his oats, I would put him on a low NSC diet balancer and add additional amino acids if you would like to see more muscle on him. Third or fourth putting him on the alfalfa mix hay and closely watching him to see if he has an attitude change.

I would probably also put him on MagOx or more ideally, Quiessence, given his possible genetic predispositions.

[shakeytails]

A few things to try- Flax seed (whole is fine)- I had an almost black bay that got dapples and absolutely glowed when on flax, and the added calories won't hurt. Diamond V yeast- when I first started feeding it I noticed the horses getting fat with no change in diet. Corn- I don't care if some people think corn is evil- it's an energy dense feed that works well at putting weight on. I know of at least one WC whose diet consisted of mostly corn.