Finding A Balance

[Kairoshorses]

I just got back from a clinic this past weekend where some things began to come together….somewhat.

I have been doing Novice all fall, with some success. We made it to our local championships, where I tried too hard to "collect" (read "control") before the jump, and my horse said "nope. Not enough impulsion." And we had our first run outs.

Two weekends ago, we did our last horse trial. I sat up but pushed before each jump on XC, and we went double clear, finishing on our dressage score…and we won!

SO….this past weekend, I had both successful and unsuccessful jumps—and it all had to do w/ how much I held/gave/pushed before the jump. We DID get to take some Training jumps, and we did them GREAT. It was the N jumps we had trouble with—esp. drop downs and "pimple" jumps. In both situations, I tried to control/collect too much, and my poor horse had to leap rather than "slink".

SO….how did you/are you all learning to balance pushing with controlling? I'm learning it's a real conversation with my horse—and an ongoing one, rather than a one time "I said so". What are some ways you have found success?

[Bobthehorse]

My coach just keeps yelling at me to keep my leg on (or in the case of the young one, "kick!") and to give my hands. Its one of those things you just need to keep being told to do before your body actually gets it. Like waiting instead of jumping ahead, or dropping your hands. Your brain knows its wrong, but your stupid body does it anyway.

It will come. You will eventually get more familiar with riding off your leg and giving the horse his face. Then you'll wonder how you ever did it the old way!

[subk]

In both situations, I tried to control/collect too much, and my poor horse had to leap rather than "slink".

SO….how did you/are you all learning to balance pushing with controlling? I'm learning it's a real conversation with my horse—and an ongoing one, rather than a one time "I said so". What are some ways you have found success?

So, do you realize that in your attempt to "control and collect" you ended up with neither!?

If your boy is somewhat honest then the reality is you don't need much of either of those things at Novice. The "forward" that you lost in your effort to collect was really the most important element and yet you got distracted by focusing on something else. So, I'd suggest you spend more time focusing on a nice half halt 5 or 6 strides out then 95% of your brain activity stays on keeping the horse forward.

I love that you think about it like a "conversation." I do too! Most riders ride like they think they need to do all the talking and that they need to be talking all the time. Not much of a conversation. I still remember a wonderful epiphany I had in a Wofford clinic. We were discussing this "conversation" idea and he said that as a rider you say something and THEN you must be quiet and wait for the horse to respond. If he answers incorrectly you ask again--but somewhere between the two requests you need to be quiet long enough for him to respond. If he answers correctly then shut up until you have something else you need to say! If you just talk for the sake of talking your horse will learn very quickly to tune you out. So make sure when you talk that you have something important to say and that you're not yelling.

Less it more.

[applechick]

Your brain knows its wrong, but your stupid body does it anyway.



That's my theme!

[Bobthehorse]

Yep! Habits are hard to break, and when you get insecure you pull instead of push, apparently. Its not always as easy as just "not" doing it. Which is why having your coach nag you every stride might help you keep your stupid body from relapsing into its old habits.

[Carol Ames]

set two poles on the ground at a related a related:yes: distance; canter easily over them , then go back and add one stride, then, leave one :eek:out, etc. See how many strides you can put between them:yes:, then the reverse. Try to have someone on the ground to reset poles as :winkgrin: needed ; then try low verticles, and do the same; :yes::cool:

[Kairoshorses]

I will say that I'm one of those pendulum learners: I go too far one way, then too far the other, then eventually I find balance. I hate it, though, that my horse suffers. My "dirty little secret" is that I was probably TOO forward this last horse trial (the one we won). The one before that one, I was way too controlling. Both--the over controlling and the too forward--were probably based in fear.....so first I was pulling too much, then I think I kicked/pushed too much trying NOT to pull.

I teach rhetoric, so I love the idea of a negotiation. But I also remember what the clinician said: If you ask your horse a question and get no response, what do you do? Too many riders, she said, just go on. But you need to listen to your horse.

I think you're right; at Novice, pushing and just riding is fine. But shouldn't I be trying to figure out the RIGHT way to approach various questions? To give and take, to ask and listen and work together?

[asterix]

Yes, of course you should -- if you want to move up. That conversation becomes more important as you go up the levels. But as your horse becomes more "made" at a given level, your end of the conversation can get quieter; IF you have learned how to recognize correct balance and impulsion for the question along the way. So this is an important learning process!! I like Carol's idea for using poles/low verticals and adding up or subtracting.

Every now and then we do a serious "jumper" lesson where we really work on compressing, and then entertain ourselves with the amazing roll backs we can perform :D -- it's a good reminder that we can compress and keep the power...but that is with a T/P horse, not a novice horse.

You need also to feel not only what YOU can do, but what HE can do. They are better able to adjust and compress with power as they get stronger.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I think you're right; at Novice, pushing and just riding is fine. But shouldn't I be trying to figure out the RIGHT way to approach various questions? To give and take, to ask and listen and work together?


Yes you need to figure out the right way to approach various questions....but you also need to not over ride or over think things....which it sounds like you might be doing. But you should generally know how to ride certain questions. For example....to a pimple jump, you really just about NEVER need to collect or take back with the reins. The hill does that for you and that is the biggest mistake people make in riding those fences. I usually find you have to come more forward that you think for those fences. But honestly, be extremely careful about thinking about "collecting" on a novice horse...or really on any horse. That often leads to riding backwards. There is very little "collecting" ever needed at novice....or even training. Thinking about keeping them straight in a good rhythm is just about all you need to worry about for a long long time.

[badawg]

Great discussion. Love the conversation aspect. I think of it that way as well, but needed the reminder. I'm currently bringing along a greenie, and sometimes the conversation takes longer than I'd like, and sometimes she doesn't wait for me to finish my sentence! LOL! I'll have to bring this up with my coach tonight in my lesson!

[Lori B]

I would not ordinarily add to a thread that is over my riding level, but I had an interesting experience a few weeks ago regarding what you are calling a pimple fence. I jump judged at Waredaca recognized, and was at the fence that was a log on top of a hill. There was a more immediate drop for the I version, but both were very similar in construction and height. There were a very few stops at this fence, but a number of 'scrapes' and scrambles over it. And the clear error that most riders made was coming in to it underpowered. Good rides reached the base of the hill moving along quite handily.

[Bobthehorse]

I think its a common problem these days, that riders pick too hard coming into a technical fence or a fence they are scared of, and dont realize until the last stride that they ruined the canter (the one thing you MUSNT do). I dont know what to say except to keep in mind that on the flat, more energy (and thus more leg) is required for collection than extension. The shorter you make the stride, and the more hand you use, the more leg you should be using, otherwise youre just going slow and missing the point. My coach calls it the "rearing" canter. That canter you want before a water jump, or a bounce, or a tight combo. A bit bouncier than a coffin canter. It requires incredible amounts of energy and leg, into a solid but not pulling hand. If you just have a death grip the horse will take a flyer, and thats the opposite of what youre trying to accomplish.

[retreadeventer]

Wow what a great discussion.
I am learning! Keep going! All things I have really felt and really had to work on.

[subk]

My "dirty little secret" is that I was probably TOO forward this last horse trial (the one we won).
Is there anyway you can get your hands on a video of this ride you think was "TOO forward" to find out from the ground if you really were? I suspect there is a very big lesson to be had if you could! (Even at $100+ it would be a great deal.) You said you were clean, but was he good too? If he was, I think it might be a hint for you to consider re-thinking just what a good pace to a fence actually is and more importantly what it feels like.

It took me years--think decades!--to understand that I'm never going as fast in reality as I think I am while I'm riding. It finally became a mantra for me to ride every cross country fence 1/2 to 1 gear more forward than I think is "right" or that I'm perfectly comfortable with. (I especially do this if the fence intimidates or concerns me.) The results were pretty significant.

"Too Forward" if you have a modicum of balance is rarely more dangerous than "too collected." There is a real reason for the saying, "make all your mistakes going forward." I think as riders when we get nervous or scared we pull and want to slow down because instinctually we think that slower is safer. The reality is that slower is NOT safer and pulling when we are nervous is a self-fulfilling prophesy. A horse that is forward has a much, much greater ability to get you out of trouble than one who has lost his engine and has a rider messing with his face.

[FLeckenAwesome]

ha!! great thread, but i'm sorry... i had to laugh cause i'm soooo the opposite! if i get scared i just kick like hell and away we go!!! and unfortunately our balance usually goes out the window too!!!

so *I* had to take a lesson and learn how to slow down my horse and balance and get that "reary" canter. However, now that i have... i'm finding that i'm having to kick on a bit more :)

it's a great feeling having your horse in balance and responsive!!! i LOVE my *new* horse to ride!!!

but sorry...great thread...carry on... didn't mean to interject with meaningless chatter....

:)

[Jleegriffith]

I recently rode in a clinic with Boyd and he basically was very opinionated that you make your mistakes going forward and that horses were able to help you out if you were going forward. You rode more forward to the questions that were scary or might back off the horse. He also advocates staying upright with your body if not a bit behind in some cases. I know other instructors have a different approach so I think that is a question you have to answer based on your horse. You don't want to fly down to something out of control but without impulsion your horse is not going to feel confident and neither will you.

Like Subk I often think I am going faster than I am and then when I see the video I get a good laugh when I realize it was just right. I have changed to a bit more forward ride on some of my greenies this year and it seems to be working.

As far as balance that is something I try to leave alone at the smaller stuff. I will let them gallop in their own balance and then try to sit up using my body and ask them to balance up but keep the leg on. I basically think about making my adjustment without interfering with the forward. Many times I set them up and then send them forward so I know they are in the right balance. I think this step is important because it is my test that they are on the aids and straight. I try to do this 5-6 strides out. I don't want a horse coming in on the forehand running through the aids so there has to be a check. As the horse gets more educated you might not have to do anything to change the balance besides just lightly touch the saddle and support with the leg. With the greenies you might have to sink a bit more and send them on if they start to back off.

The type of fence always affects the ride. We had one of those pimple fences at the clinic and it was interesting watching how the different rides could produce such different jumps. It was way more technical than it appeared if you ask me. Of course I knew to ride up the hill with an engine but ask me what happened when I got to much engine. I basically had to much impulsion and then my horse jumped and we landed very far down the other side of the hill. You want to ride to the top and then just soften so your horse slinks over. Without enough impulsion they just die. It was fun to watch how the horses figured out the question. If you rode at it they might not have had a pretty jump but if you didn't ride to it the jump was ugly.

Great discussion and a question I think we all work to figure out. Each horse is different in the way they like to be ridden and how much the rider needs to do to balance them.

[Jleegriffith]

Flecken- actually that is something great to know about yourself and how you react to what is scary. I find I always ride better to stuff that scares me because I am riding forward. It is those jumps that don't seem to be an issue that end up being a problem because you take them for granted and don't balance up enough for them thinking it will be a piece of cake.

Kairo- did you feel that your balance was better to the bigger stuff and do you think it was because you rode more forward? I always find the bigger the fence the better my horse tends to balance themself as it sets them back under and has them looking up. When they are looking down at the smaller stuff sometimes I have to do more work than to a bigger fence.

[Bobthehorse]

Flecken- actually that is something great to know about yourself and how you react to what is scary. I find I always ride better to stuff that scares me because I am riding forward. It is those jumps that don't seem to be an issue that end up being a problem because you take them for granted and don't balance up enough for them thinking it will be a piece of cake.


I agree with this! I do that all the time.

[subk]

As far as balance that is something I try to leave alone at the smaller stuff. I will let them gallop in their own balance and then try to sit up using my body and ask them to balance up but keep the leg on. I basically think about making my adjustment without interfering with the forward. Many times I set them up and then send them forward so I know they are in the right balance... As the horse gets more educated you might not have to do anything to change the balance besides just lightly touch the saddle and support with the leg. With the greenies you might have to sink a bit more and send them on if they start to back off.
I love hearing what Jennifer has to say on a topic like this! It seems we both tend to spend time on greenies and her extra insight is always good.

Some of my very best moments on horseback have been when 5 to 6 strides out I've lifted my shoulder and the horse followed by lifting his--and viola balance. I think getting there goes back to the "conversation" and knowing when you the rider need to be quiet and either listen to your horse or let him think.

When Jlee talks about leaving them alone over the smaller stuff I think there is something important happening in terms a schooling. She says something to her horse, then is quiet and lets the horse figure it out. I'll bet sometimes the greenies don't figure it out and the immediate result is a less than perfect fence. But on a reasonably smart horse when she comes again sends the same message at the same place and again lets the horse figure it out that's when they have an "aha! moment." What they learn is that when she said something 5-6 strides out it was was important and they needed to listen. I think that if you're riding down to a fence on a greenie (or anything else for that matter) and fixing and managing all the way to the base that when you come again the horse doesn't remember the one and only thing you told him before that was important because you've cluttered his mind with so much talk. In the process you've taken all the responsibility on yourself for jumping the jump instead of letting him be a partner. It creates a horse that instead of listening for the cue then rebalancing *himself* developes into a horse that needs a lot a management.

(When I use the word "you" I mean it in a general sense not in reference to the OP! :grin:)

[Kairoshorses]

Yes you need to figure out the right way to approach various questions....but you also need to not over ride or over think things....which it sounds like you might be doing.

The curse of the adult rider professor...!

[bornfreenowexpensive]

The curse of the adult rider professor...!


it's the curse of many of us.....hence why I can see it happening in others ;) I've had more than one trainer tell me to shut my brain off and just ride! Another way to visualize it....ride like a kid!

[Kairoshorses]

Subk, alas, no videos were taken by pros, and the "pro" pictures STILL aren't up. I see what you're saying--and I do think you're right; I had a good rhythm, I pushed before most fences but we never felt out of control, we "felt" good--we just came in about 5 seconds before the "speeding ticket" time (I had just done a N at 400 mpm, and this one was 300 or 350) even after trotting the last fence and trotting in. I didn't check my watch because it was a new course and I just wanted to concentrate on a consistent pace and feeling good over the jumps.

I WAS told that I came into a N fence we schooled this weekend too fast. So I think this winder I'll set up some meter markers and learn what 300, 350, 400, etc. "feels" like.

Is there anyway you can get your hands on a video of this ride you think was "TOO forward" to find out from the ground if you really were? I suspect there is a very big lesson to be had if you could! (Even at $100+ it would be a great deal.) You said you were clean, but was he good too? If he was, I think it might be a hint for you to consider re-thinking just what a good pace to a fence actually is and more importantly what it feels like.

It took me years--think decades!--to understand that I'm never going as fast in reality as I think I am while I'm riding. It finally became a mantra for me to ride every cross country fence 1/2 to 1 gear more forward than I think is "right" or that I'm perfectly comfortable with. (I especially do this if the fence intimidates or concerns me.) The results were pretty significant.

"Too Forward" if you have a modicum of balance is rarely more dangerous than "too collected." There is a real reason for the saying, "make all your mistakes going forward." I think as riders when we get nervous or scared we pull and want to slow down because instinctually we think that slower is safer. The reality is that slower is NOT safer and pulling when we are nervous is a self-fulfilling prophesy. A horse that is forward has a much, much greater ability to get you out of trouble than one who has lost his engine and has a rider messing with his face.

[Kairoshorses]

Kairo- did you feel that your balance was better to the bigger stuff and do you think it was because you rode more forward? I always find the bigger the fence the better my horse tends to balance themself as it sets them back under and has them looking up. When they are looking down at the smaller stuff sometimes I have to do more work than to a bigger fence.

Yep. More focus, more concentration, and more forward. A little hesitant at the ditch, but we've always been a tiny bit "ditchy" when not under the influence of adreneline. In competition, for some reason, he doesn't seem to mind the ditches (uh, maybe because we're forward and "going"? Maybe it's ME that's "ditchy"??).

[Kairoshorses]

When Jlee talks about leaving them alone over the smaller stuff I think there is something important happening in terms a schooling. She says something to her horse, then is quiet and lets the horse figure it out. I'll bet sometimes the greenies don't figure it out and the immediate result is a less than perfect fence. But on a reasonably smart horse when she comes again sends the same message at the same place and again lets the horse figure it out that's when they have an "aha! moment." What they learn is that when she said something 5-6 strides out it was was important and they needed to listen. I think that if you're riding down to a fence on a greenie (or anything else for that matter) and fixing and managing all the way to the base that when you come again the horse doesn't remember the one and only thing you told him before that was important because you've cluttered his mind with so much talk. In the process you've taken all the responsibility on yourself for jumping the jump instead of letting him be a partner. It creates a horse that instead of listening for the cue then rebalancing *himself* developes into a horse that needs a lot a management.

(When I use the word "you" I mean it in a general sense not in reference to the OP! :grin:)

Oh, but you ARE talking about me! That's what I'm learning!

I think first you have to just ride--be a passenger.

Eventually, I'm learning that pace, striding, balance, etc. affects jumps.

SO then I swing the pendulum too far, and try to "micromanage", confusing my poor, dear horse.

In dressage, I just "got" the idea of stretching up and holding to help HIM be under himself and balanced. I tend to fall forward when I'm tired and in the corners, but it's coming--and it's the SAME CONCEPT, I think, before the fences.

Thanks, everyone--this is a great discussion!

[GotSpots]

I had a good rhythm, I pushed before most fences but we never felt out of control, we "felt" good--we just came in about 5 seconds before the "speeding ticket" time (I had just done a N at 400 mpm, and this one was 300 or 350) even after trotting the last fence and trotting in. I didn't check my watch because it was a new course and I just wanted to concentrate on a consistent pace and feeling good over the jumps.

I WAS told that I came into a N fence we schooled this weekend too fast. So I think this winder I'll set up some meter markers and learn what 300, 350, 400, etc. "feels" like. Two important notes for you: first, you are not permitted to trot between the last fence and the finish line. You were lucky not to get tagged for this - in a recognized show, it is subject to a penalty. Just something to be aware of. As for learning what pace feels like, while I highly recommend setting up meter markers and learning that way, my rule of thumb is that "Row, row, row your boat" is the rhythm for a nice Novice pace.

As for leaving them alone, welcome to my world. I'm the queen of picking on down to the chip. What helps me is thinking only about what the canter is doing: the energy, the balance, the rhythm. With the right canter, there's a ton of distances you can jump from, and the jumps tend to come to you. With a craptastic canter, the distance is always wrong. And to get that great canter, you're not riding their mouths - think of a gorgeous hunter rider with that floating rein and beautiful big canter. They keep the balance up and into that canter but are never fussing with the bridle to create it. There's alot to be learned from that ride, I think, and focusing on the canter makes micromanaging alot less likely.

[asterix]

GotSpots has it right. It's the canter. It's always the canter. Focus on getting a maintaining a great canter, and the jumps come to you. Obviously, coming into a prelim coffin, that's a different canter (which you have to create from a gallop) than cruising around a novice course. But it is ALL about the canter.

[Tuckertoo]

This is very enlightening for me. I KNOW all of this stuff in my head while I sit here and think about it, but as soon as I get in the saddle I just forget to ride and kind of fling myself around while holding too much with my hands. If I could just remember to sit up, ride, but not micromanage, things would go much better for me. My problem is that I micromanage until about 1 stride out and then throw myself up his neck. Well, that got me into trouble and a broken collarbone. :no: So, I learned my lesson on this one, but now I need to learn to sit up and create the canter with my legs and impulsion, not pulling with my hands. I was working on the flat in my jump saddle the other day and got a really nice canter, but I had a hard time getting that feeling again the next day. So, I just need practice. I also need to not be afraid to go forward. I'm also like subk and think I'm going WAY faster than I really am.

Thanks for giving me things to think about. Unfortunately I cannot put these things into practice with actual jumps until around Christmas/The New Year since I'm not allowed to jump until then since they want my collarbone to be healed well after surgery. But I will take the advice and work on ground poles for this.:yes:

[Gryhrs]

Kairo horses - you are writing about everything I struggle with in jumping. I also wonder if hopping from disipline to disipline..dressage to show jumping to xc effects me. I absolutely love this aspect of eventing. I know the change makes me a more well rounded rider and my horses happier. But for me - if I have been riding dressage too many days in a row - my micro management when jumping becomes more pronounced.

[melodiousaphony]

On habits:
You cannot stop bad habits. You can replace them with good ones.

This is something I have to keep reminding myself. It was pointed out to me both by my coach and by Denny, I think, during a talk at camp. I've found this holds true; it's really hard to keep thinking "okay, don't fuss, don't fuss" because 1. fussing is, at that point, built into muscle memory and 2. if you aren't fussy, what ARE you doing. So even when you WANT to do nothing, you can't approach a fence thinking "don't, don't, don't" you have to change it to a "do," such as "maintain the canter" or "be ready to support my horse" instead.

Just a thought that has really stuck and worked for me.

[Kairoshorses]

Kairo horses - you are writing about everything I struggle with in jumping. I also wonder if hopping from disipline to disipline..dressage to show jumping to xc effects me. I absolutely love this aspect of eventing. I know the change makes me a more well rounded rider and my horses happier. But for me - if I have been riding dressage too many days in a row - my micro management when jumping becomes more pronounced.

You are wise! I do dressage about 2-3X's a week, and we have improved quite a bit.....we've come down from the 40's to the 30's, and the last show we got a 30. I've learned to stretch up, engage the core, and help to hold him for him to be consistent. BUT--we still have trouble with corners, so I feel like I have been micromanaging (when, in fact, I should be preparing earlier and holding). Yep. It carries over. And maybe if I can learn it there the GOOD stuff will carry over....!!

[Kairoshorses]

On habits:
You cannot stop bad habits. You can replace them with good ones.

This is something I have to keep reminding myself. It was pointed out to me both by my coach and by Denny, I think, during a talk at camp. I've found this holds true; it's really hard to keep thinking "okay, don't fuss, don't fuss" because 1. fussing is, at that point, built into muscle memory and 2. if you aren't fussy, what ARE you doing. So even when you WANT to do nothing, you can't approach a fence thinking "don't, don't, don't" you have to change it to a "do," such as "maintain the canter" or "be ready to support my horse" instead.

Just a thought that has really stuck and worked for me.

Thanks, MP. You're right; at the clinic, I tried not to do what the clinician said I had been doing, but did what I almost always do instead. When she told me to do something else, I could focus on that--and it worked better.

Funny, though....I rode the pimple jump successfully w/ another horse, a horse whose personality is a LOT different than my current horse. He was a greenie, and I felt like I had to "hold his hand"....and we did it perfectly twice. My horse now is more powerful, more confident, and somehow, I feel like I have to micromanage. I guess that says something about MY personality....!!!

[lstevenson]

set two poles on the ground at a related a related:yes: distance; canter easily over them , then go back and add one stride, then, leave one :eek:out, etc. See how many strides you can put between them:yes:,



Carol's idea is a great excercise. It will give you lots of practice asking your horse to compress his body and stride a bit. And pretend that the second pole in the line is a 4 foot jump, so you make sure that you keep the RPMs as you gather the canter and go forward to the imaginary jump.

[Kairoshorses]

Carol's idea is a great excercise. It will give you lots of practice asking your horse to compress his body and stride a bit. And pretend that the second pole in the line is a 4 foot jump, so you make sure that you keep the RPMs as you gather the canter and go forward to the imaginary jump.

Ah, but you see, I DO that exercise, and we're great. But once I have the jump--or even IMAGINE the jump--it all goes to heck.

My DH was trying to teach me to chip in golf in the back yard when I lived in MI. I was an excellent student--you shoulda SEEN my excellent, accurate chips. Then he said "imagine that the garden is water". EVERYTHING I hit to that point went into the garden/water.

Is it the curse of a vivid imagination? Or just a self-defeating mind?

[clm08]

[QUOTE=GotSpots;3681942]Two important notes for you: first, you are not permitted to trot between the last fence and the finish line. You were lucky not to get tagged for this - in a recognized show, it is subject to a penalty. Just something to be aware of.

Just for my clarification: I thought you could trot between the last jump fence and finish line, but not halt, walk, circle or serpentine. Does trotting consist of a willful delay as well?

[Kairoshorses]

Just for my clarification: I thought you could trot between the last jump fence and finish line, but not halt, walk, circle or serpentine. Does trotting consist of a willful delay as well?

Here's what I found online--and I really didn't know this, so it's good to know!

Willful Delay: A competitor is considered to have willfully delayed his finish if between the last fence and the finish line the horse halts, walks, circles or serpentines.

[scubed]

trotting between last fence and finish line not considered willful delay. Heck, I do it pretty often with my youngsters to resist the urge to gallop over that last fence and home