Where should we be?

[VTHokie]

Where should my mare be in her training at the age of 4 1/2 (draft cross)?

I'm not working with a trainer at this point and have only taken about 3 lessons this past year since we're at a private farm and have trouble getting someone to come out just for us. Add to that the fact that I am a hunter transitioning to dressage because my mare is not a hunter type, and I'm getting worried as to whether I am working on enough of the right things or too much of the wrong ones.

At this point she can free walk nicely (I think), she reaches for contact when I loosen the reins and stretches her neck way down. We have been working "on the bit" at the walk and trot since the early summer. She can hold it and is light for a reasonable amount of time (I try not to keep her too long on contact since I know it's important for her continue to stretch out long to build muscle).
Trots on the bit and stretched long. I haven't been working the sitting trot yet. (Don't know when it's right to start.)

Canters easily from the walk, and has a nice upward transition (light and uphill). Haven't really worked on the bit at the canter. Doesn't canter collected for more than a few steps, and I haven't pushed this issue since I think it's more of a strength or fitness issue. She can canter at a forward pace easier. We don't have the best footing yet so I don't do a alot of canter work. Picks up leads easily.

We have worked on serpentines, circles and spirals for bending. Nice turn on the forehand.
Now that I'm writing it all down, it seems like quite a bit, but she doesn't act overly challenged and takes to new things enthusiastically.

So....anything I should do differently? Are we where we should be for her age? We have not done an actual dressage test yet.

Pictures from September (nothing more recent):
trot - http://www.photoreflect.com/pr3/orderpage.aspx?pi=07JE004H1H0039&po=39
canter - http://www.photoreflect.com/pr3/orderpage.aspx?pi=07JE004H1H0097&po=97

I'll have to try to get some video soon.

[angel]

Sorry, gal. Cannot see you working with training this horse, so can not really tell you what to do differently. As to where your horse should be...that all depends on your skill at training. If this is the first horse you've train, things will go very slowly...and that's okay. It is the learning path that counts.

[VTHokie]

I've added a couple of pictures above from a schooling show this past September to give you a visual. I'll have to try to get some video soon. But would still love some good "exercises" to work on that are age appropriate, other than spirals/circles/serpentines. Too soon for leg yielding?

[slc2]

First of all it's an absolutely beautiful horse. She has the kindest, most cooperative gentle look to her. I'm sure she's not always perfectly behaved as no horse is, but she gives a really strong impression of being a very, very good soul. Second, I'm going to write alot - because you don't have alot of help and are asking questions, but more because I just like to write and write, LOL.

It is a good plan? It depends on what your goals are. For progressing up the levels of dressage, one after the other, it's not a good program*.

For what you are doing - a little basic dressage work and showing hunt seat at the local level, it's a perfect program.

And you may not WANT to specialize in dressage. Or move up the levels. You might be very happy doing what you're doing now.

Right now, the horse lacks muscle in her hind quarter. Improvements come from careful, progressive fitness work.

I've seen horses like this carefully, progressively conditioned and brought along and moved up the levels in dressage, and seen the horses do quiet, correct, yeah, even grand prix tests at the local, regional and national all breed award level. In fact, a breeder in Georgia used to specialize in breeding horses like this and riding and training them himself to Grand Prix. He had a lot of them, all named after types of ice creams, lol.

The horse has a heavy front end, and her hocks tend to set out behind her. She lacks some musculature in the hind quarter, and it surprises me she hasn't gotten developed some through that area from jumping. To move up, she would need to develop more muscle over her back and hind quarter. Careful general dressage schooling, done frequently, and rather consistently over the year, without long breaks and time off, is what develops the muscles.

So that's what I'd change if I wanted to bring this horse up the dressage levels. Lessons, frequent ones with a very smart dressage trainer, lots of very smart and progressive, step wise fitness work, and well, alot of riding. You'd be changing your position somewhat, so that you'd sit differently and use the rein and leg differently when riding dressage. The horse would have more of a connection with the bit and rounder, through the action of the rider's legs bringing his neck up and him into a different balance.

* Some notes

"she reaches for contact when I loosen the reins " - this is incorrect stretching for dressage. The horse does not stretch down because one loosens the reins. It is the HORSE that takes the rein from the hand, the connection is maintained, the horse stretches the rein down, it is not done by loosening the reins and training the horse to put its head down at that time. The success of the work is not judged by how far down the head goes - in fact, a very low head can actually avoid stretching into the forward motion.[/I]

"We have been working "on the bit" at the walk and trot since the early summer. She can hold it and is light for a reasonable amount of time (I try not to keep her too long on contact since I know it's important for her continue to stretch out long to build muscle"

This is, in a fundamental way, incorrect for dressage. Contact is not something that you avoid. It is important for the horse to stretch, but she should not be stretching all the time, and abandoning the contact for the sake of 'stretching' actually creates MORE problems, it is also, as noted above, incorrect stretching as well.

A program like this winds up making the horse less consistent in the connection and more confused about what it is supposed to do. It gets frustrated and starts snagging at the reins asking, 'am i supposed to stretch now? now? now?' because it doesn't really know the signal for stretching, and into the bargain, it teaches the horse the connection won't be maintained and varies, so he then gets upset and fussy when it IS maintained, not because that a connection is wrong, but because the horse has been trained to think the connection comes and goes all the time.

Maintain a consistent, gentle, slightly flexible connection with the reins, stretch and the beginning and end of the ride, at your command, not allowing the horse to just randomly plunge its head up and down - I know - I went thru this - 'oh goody she is stretching all by herself!' - no - this is a problem.

Stretching is not a religion or a way of life, and it is NOT something you do instead of having that connection - it is done WITH a connection - WITH a contact! That's where its value comes from! It is an exercise, not a way to live

Your horse can't be 'on the bit' at this point - that has nothing to do with putting his chin down and in, and when you say she's 'on the bit and walk and trot, but not canter' - that's what makes me think you're going down the wrong road for dressage. 'On the bit' is not anything about a head position - it is a lot more than that - and if you're getting him to put his head down and in at walk and trot by workign teh reins now, you'll be a lot sorry later.

He should at this point be accepting the connection, bending to the left and right, and allowing himself to be 'pushed to the quiet hand', a steady, constant, yet unrestricting, gentle connecting point

If he is accepting the bit, he won't be going around with his nose way up in the air, with a giraffe neck, and he won't be ripping the reins out of your hands - some people might even think he's 'on the bit' but it's a whole whole lot more than accepting the bit - you'll get to that on the bit stuff later. Don't try to get the horse's chin in and down right now. COncentrate on how the reins and the quality of the connection FEELS to you, not what it looks like.

That connection is maintainable ALL DAY because your horse first - LONG before it is even CLOSE to 'on the bit' - accepts the bit - steadily, round and round the ring - why? Because you have the right rein length and are not restricting or forcing your horse and offer him a quiet, steady hand to face confidently. The neck lifts and rounds up from its base (in front of the shoulders) because of the rider's LEGS - not because of a restricting, tight, short rein - please keep that in mind.

Teach your horse, kindly, gently and consistently, to face the bit, as the old timers say, 'ride with the leg to the quiet, steady hand'. The hand is not frozen or unresponsive, and in fact can be active and supple the horse and 'tune' (rather than drop!) that connection. Because the rein length is correct for the horse, and it is not held in or restricted, and given a rein length it can comfortably 'face' in a normal, comfortable posture, the horse can 'connect' and have a 'contact' and be steady accepting the bit ALL DAY.

"Canters easily from the walk" - for progressing in dressage, you do not want to do that now, in fact, most riders working with a trainer will be highly discouraged from working on this with a 4 year old because the transition will not be correct if done early on. The green horse gets into the canter, no matter how nice it feels, by lifting his neck and shoulder, by pushing forehand up with his forelegs, which is incorrect. People will tell you that I'm wrong and lifting the forehand is desirable. Not this way. The hind quarter is what pushes the forehand up, it can't lift itself up with the forelegs and maintain the correct outline and working of the back.

"Doesn't canter collected for more than a few steps"

The four year old dressage horse is a long, long way away from collected gaits. If done now, the canter turns into a 'patting the ground' - a very, very soft, pleasant softly rocking gait that riders ABSOLUTELY LOVE - and it is not pushing and carrying properly. 'Patting the ground' is very, very different from a collected canter, which feels just amazing - bounding, energetic, nimble. Go across the ground first, develop the muscles of the horse, work on the trot canter transition, and develop the working canter and watch the muscle around the stifle and along the rear ward line of the haunch develop. Collected gaits are for later, when the foundation is laid.

Lay the foundation. A house built without a foundation collapses. You have everything needed except the instruction. What's needed? I think, a willing horse, an thinking enthusiastic rider, and instruction.

[Lambie Boat]

I think you are already doing a great job with this mare. The best thing is to work on her pushing off from behind, and forward forward forward (not faster). I had a shire/tb cross who I worked outside the arena quite a bit. Popped her over fences, cut cows with her, foxhunted, long trail rides, even tried polo. She was very versatile and a lot of fun. Your mare looks like a solid citizen. Mix it up! Have fun

[MelantheLLC]

She looks very nice for 4 1/2!

I love her expression. And for a horse that age she seems to be using herself very well.

I think your biggest problem may be not pushing her beyond what she should be doing yet. "Collected" work is not what you want yet.

Remember the training scale. At her age you are still at the early stages. Rhythm and relaxation. Relaxation is not just her mental state (she seems quite relaxed!) but also her suppleness and your ability to ask her flex and bend.

Since you said you are new to dressage, maybe spend some time reading and watching dvd's as much as you can. You could also work with her on lunging and ground work.

I found the first Philippe Karl dvd (http://www.dressageextensions.com/ProductDetail.asp?KEY=4376) to be a nice intro to lunging work, though this is the "French" school and so you can take the "bit flexions" or leave them as you prefer.

For a more traditional approach to lunging, the Arthur Kottas dvd (http://www.dressageextensions.com/ProductDetail.asp?KEY=42111) also covers the basics.

Others may have other suggestions. There are a million resources in books and videos but some are more useful than others.

[VTHokie]

slc2 - Edit to add, I just saw that you added a lot more to your post so I will add more to another post after this.
Thanks, I would like to at some point move up the levels with her. She is so very smart and loves to learn new things. I never thought I'd enjoy dressage or all flat work but she has made it fun! I don't have the finances at the moment to show a lot or lesson but hope to by the spring/summer. For now, you're right that she needs more fequent work.

I have not jumped her since May so that is why she has not developed hind quarters from it as you mentioned. I decided to wait a while to let her grow up a bit more; however, I may add some poles and tiny X's to our routine this winter if the ground isn't hard.
In addition to that, as I mentioned, we don't canter very long. I'm hoping to get some sand for Christmas :lol: and then work on that when we have the proper footing.

Regarding the stretching, I don't completely drop contact at any point. I just ride on a longer rein with lots of leg to hand, and getting her to round up her back. Isn't that a good idea? How else do you get them to the point of a strong neck and back? Poles would be helpful wouldn't they? How would you set them?

[FootPerfect]

You can set trot poles on the ground spaced at about 4'. Only 4 poles will be fine. Walk/trot her though a few times and see if you need to adjust the spacing for the length of her stride. If you have them, low cavaletti will work as well. Look for Ingrid Klimke's book on Cavaletti. It's not very expensive and has a lot of good information.

Go look for Walter Zettl's DVD's on dressage as well as his books. Very easy to understand and will help you on the right path.

I think she looks quite nice and I think you are doing very well with her. If she's taking the bit and stretching down, I think that is a good place to be for her now. You can continue to work on getting more impulsion with that stretch; you have something to work with.

I would say you could do Intro tests with her now and probably be doing quite well. When you have a better chance to work on canter, try a few Training tests and see how she does. Do some schooling shows for a year, and see what she is scoring. It's always good to get the feed back, even if the tests are a little rough. I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

I would say as a new person to dressage, it looks (and sounds like) you are on the right track. Just take it slow and don't ask for too much collection at this point. Like someone else said, remember the training scale.

[VTHokie]

[quote=slc2;3682555]

"she reaches for contact when I loosen the reins " - this is incorrect stretching for dressage. The horse does not stretch down because one loosens the reins. It is the HORSE that takes the rein from the hand, the connection is maintained, the horse stretches the rein down, it is not done by loosening the reins and training the horse to put its head down at that time. The success of the work is not judged by how far down the head goes - in fact, a very low head can actually avoid stretching into the forward motion.[/i]

I completely agree and should not have said loosen. I meant lengthen. Technically I suppose I am letting her take the reins to lengthen them.
I don't just drop contact with her and ride on a loopy rein; it's either more contact or less. I do also use a lot of leg to hand. I know getting her to use her hindend is very important; in addition, I know drafts have a bad rep for being heavy on the forehand and I want to avoid that.

A program like this winds up making the horse less consistent in the connection and more confused about what it is supposed to do. It gets frustrated and starts snagging at the reins asking, 'am i supposed to stretch now? now? now?' because it doesn't really know the signal for stretching, and into the bargain, it teaches the horse the connection won't be maintained and varies, so he then gets upset and fussy when it IS maintained, not because that a connection is wrong, but because the horse has been trained to think the connection comes and goes all the time.

I'll go back and read again, but what are the exact steps I should be taking when going from more collected (can't think of a better word) to a free walk.

Maintain a consistent, gentle, slightly flexible connection with the reins, stretch and the beginning and end of the ride, at your command, not allowing the horse to just randomly plunge its head up and down - I know - I went thru this - 'oh goody she is stretching all by herself!' - no - this is a problem.
:lol: Yeah, I don't think did it exactly this way, but it sounds a bit similar. I still use leg to hand and don't have a slack rein. Is that right?

Your horse can't be 'on the bit' at this point - that has nothing to do with putting his chin down and in, and when you say she's 'on the bit and walk and trot, but not canter' - that's what makes me think you're going down the wrong road for dressage. 'On the bit' is not anything about a head position - it is a lot more than that - and if you're getting him to put his head down and in at walk and trot by workign teh reins now, you'll be a lot sorry later.

He should at this point be accepting the connection, bending to the left and right, and allowing himself to be 'pushed to the quiet hand', a steady, constant, yet unrestricting, gentle connecting point
I think we are somewhere in between possibly. I do NOT want her to get behind the vertical. Been down that rode before with another horse and don't want to have to fix it. She gets soft when I increase the contact but does not avoid the contact; if that makes sense. Definitely not just seesawing the reins. Lots of leg and waiting for that moment when she's self-carrying and soft. Accepting is a good word.:yes:

"Canters easily from the walk" - for progressing in dressage, you do not want to do that now, in fact, most riders working with a trainer will be highly discouraged from working on this with a 4 year old because the transition will not be correct if done early on. The green horse gets into the canter, no matter how nice it feels, by lifting his neck and shoulder, by pushing forehand up with his forelegs, which is incorrect. People will tell you that I'm wrong and lifting the forehand is desirable. Not this way. The hind quarter is what pushes the forehand up, it can't lift itself up with the forelegs and maintain the correct outline and working of the back.
In one of the two dressage lessons I've actually had, the trainer did say she did the walk/canter surprisingly well. I do need to work on our trot to canter transitions in general. Again, we'll do that soon enough, when the footing improves.

"Doesn't canter collected for more than a few steps"

The four year old dressage horse is a long, long way away from collected gaits. If done now, the canter turns into a 'patting the ground' - a very, very soft, pleasant softly rocking gait that riders ABSOLUTELY LOVE - and it is not pushing and carrying properly. 'Patting the ground' is very, very different from a collected canter, which feels just amazing - bounding, energetic, nimble. Go across the ground first, develop the muscles of the horse, work on the trot canter transition, and develop the working canter and watch the muscle around the stifle and along the rear ward line of the haunch develop. Collected gaits are for later, when the foundation is laid.
My concern is whether the relaxed canter is too strung out. I'll have to try and get some recent video for further critique.

[VTHokie]

I think you are already doing a great job with this mare. The best thing is to work on her pushing off from behind, and forward forward forward (not faster). I had a shire/tb cross who I worked outside the arena quite a bit. Popped her over fences, cut cows with her, foxhunted, long trail rides, even tried polo. She was very versatile and a lot of fun. Your mare looks like a solid citizen. Mix it up! Have fun

She is definitely fun, and the perfect training challenge for me without being overwhelming. We went out on the trail today, and did some trotting up and down hills while out. We have an awesome bridlepath since she is kept in an equestrian community.

[Happy Feet]

I looked at one of the photos. Sh elooks like she is moving energeticly fromt eh hind looks like a nice contact, I'd liek to see you a bit more balanced, not so tipped forward.
I think collection is not where you want to be going, delevoping legthenings in gaits, correct half halts, and some leg yielding. Troting poles would be a great idea. going "on teh bit" at the canter would be something you should start looking to maintain, as the trot for most of the ride. Stretching a horse over it's back etc, is still work "on teh bit".

[VTHokie]

She looks very nice for 4 1/2!

I love her expression. And for a horse that age she seems to be using herself very well.

I think your biggest problem may be not pushing her beyond what she should be doing yet. "Collected" work is not what you want yet.

Remember the training scale. At her age you are still at the early stages. Rhythm and relaxation. Relaxation is not just her mental state (she seems quite relaxed!) but also her suppleness and your ability to ask her flex and bend.

Since you said you are new to dressage, maybe spend some time reading and watching dvd's as much as you can. You could also work with her on lunging and ground work.

I found the first Philippe Karl dvd (http://www.dressageextensions.com/ProductDetail.asp?KEY=4376) to be a nice intro to lunging work, though this is the "French" school and so you can take the "bit flexions" or leave them as you prefer.

For a more traditional approach to lunging, the Arthur Kottas dvd (http://www.dressageextensions.com/ProductDetail.asp?KEY=42111) also covers the basics.

Others may have other suggestions. There are a million resources in books and videos but some are more useful than others.

Thanks, I'll see what I can find. I have a copy of Dressage today here next to me that I'm getting ready to look through. It came free with an online order.
We do need to get more in depth with our bending work. She does need to be more responsive to moving off my leg as well.
Lunging is not our forte. She is quite lazy on the lunge and I end up working too hard instead of her. She understands the concept of lungeing but I have not used anything other than a bridle with lunge line and lunge whip. No side reins or cavasan, etc. Husband says no more horse stuff. (We'll appease him for now.) We just recently had to buy a new girth and blankets due to her growing.

[VTHokie]

I looked at one of the photos. Sh elooks like she is moving energeticly fromt eh hind looks like a nice contact, I'd liek to see you a bit more balanced, not so tipped forward.
I think collection is not where you want to be going, delevoping legthenings in gaits, correct half halts, and some leg yielding. Troting poles would be a great idea. going "on teh bit" at the canter would be something you should start looking to maintain, as the trot for most of the ride. Stretching a horse over it's back etc, is still work "on teh bit".

Yes, I agree. Curse of the hunter rider (many years of it) with only two actual dressage lessons. I thought the canter looked good though. Not so tipped forward.
I introduced leg yielding last week actually. This will take a lot of work. :yes:
Lengthening is another challenge we need to work on.

[slc2]

"going from more collected (can't think of a better word) to a free walk."

A free walk is without rein contact, for at the start or end of the ride, perhaps briefly (alot more value in walking forward energetically in working or medium walk, with a contact), and you aren't schooling during your ride, in a free walk for dressage.

And it wouldn't be a collected walk. It would be a working walk or a medium walk - very marching forward, very energetic, with the slack out of the reins and a contact with the horse's mouth and a 'following' hand - unlike the collected walk, the rider moves his hands with the nodding of the horse's head, but without slack in the reins coming and going - with a steady contact.

On the stretching, I think we aren't on the same page. The horse stretches his neck out and down - the rider doesn't loosen or lengthen the reins - the HORSE takes the reins out of hand. The contact doesn't change, the rider doesn't loosen the reins,, the horse takes the reins.

[goeslikestink]

nice horse and your doing well so far so rathar than go into a spill
here look here this will helpyou undtsrand the walk the trot the canter
it has working diagrams and and is a visual training aid for you
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.classicaldressage.co.uk%2FThe _Gaits%2FFreedom_And_Regularity_Of_The_%2Ffreedom_ and_regularity_of_the_.html&ei=XRYuSfq7PJOWxAGZ2tmACw&usg=AFQjCNFT3QTxhKum-Par1KIDjSfdxPZ08w&sig2=h3PP8MBQVcdCdgj_FDfLmg

click on the highlights at the bottom of the page and then it brings up the working diagrams

and this also explains all walk paces all trot and cnater

the free walk is allowing the horse freedom of the reins the horse doesnt take the the reins as surggest but more like you are allowing and giving with the riens so the hrose can lower his head and relax

when walking you can use the half halt stride in between each transition as with any movment it all starts with the walk pace and with youngsters its helpful to use the half halt alot as its your freind of apce the same as trot is using the half halt stride would inform the horse something going to change-- ie from say less collected pace to amore active pace or from an active pace to a more collective pace using it in between in each transition is infoming the horse somethings going to change thus giving a clear direct sigal to the horse

[Lambie Boat]

the challenge will be not only forward from behind, but suppleness. That neck, that throatlatch......you want those body parts on your side! I had a dream last night~ you and your mare were in it working away and having fun together outside my window, in my pasture! But then, the Obama family came over for Thanksgiving turkey dinner too :D

[slc2]

My dream was that I rode in the Olympics for dressage.

However, it was a new event. Dressage for mooses.

I had a brown one.

[NCSue]

Well y'know what I think of your My Little Pony. She's beyond special. You might like Lendon Grey's book. It will walk you through training step by step to get you moving towards training level. I have Walter Zettl's book if you'd like to borrow it. While chalk full of info it's probably not as useable. You can never do too much lateral bending, longitudinal stretching. Drafties must learn to carry themselves -- no leaning -- and to use their hindquarters so a definite yes to ground poles. Transitions. Lots and lots and lots of them making sure you have a nice connection. It's way too easy to loose the contact or to let the hocks trail. Think of transitioning from one gait to the other and then think of transitioning within the gait. Don't do too much at the walk at this moment. You could screw it up. Hope you get your sand. B/c the canter work needs to be addressed. It's not too early for some sitting trot but if she doesn't keep the nice connection don't keep sitting -- post. Make sure she keeps the forward also. Many slow their horses down when sitting the trot. While understandable it defeats the training. Serpentines with change of gaits at the center line. Serpentines with canter, counter-canter, canter. Or trot-canter-trot. The sequence is almost endless. Leg yields should be introduced but must be done properly. Shoulder fore is also good. Make sure you are teaching her to work on the outside rein. You want your change of transitions to be electric. So lots of trot, walk 3 steps, trot. It's harder than you may realize. Same for trot, walk, whoa, walk, trot as soon as you close your legs. Do not practice the rein back at this moment. Whoa should be through the walk still. After you get a nice, square whoa maintain it for 5 seconds and then proceed. I know you know, but never, ever practice whoas at the same spot. Straightness is very important. Work not only on the rail but off the rail a few feet and even on the diagonal.

[Bobthehorse]

I dont think every horse can follow the same training plan, so I dont think anyone can say how much, or how little, any horse should be doing at what age. Some progress faster than others, some are smarter, some are more talented, some are more willing, some are more mentally mature. And of course, so much also depends on the rider and the relationship. But it also depends on your goals. People aiming horses at the upper levels will probably move along faster (or try to) than someone who wants to do only 1st or 2nd level, and isnt really hurry, just wants to savour the training itself.

[VTHokie]

the challenge will be not only forward from behind, but suppleness. That neck, that throatlatch......you want those body parts on your side! I had a dream last night~ you and your mare were in it working away and having fun together outside my window, in my pasture! But then, the Obama family came over for Thanksgiving turkey dinner too :D

:lol::lol::lol:

[VTHokie]

Thank you all for the advice and votes of confidence.
When we rode out on the trail the other day I did quite a bit of sitting trot and she was fine with it, stayed forward and happy.

[Carol Ames]

to start with find someone:no::yes: to work with; then do NOT walk :no:"on the bit!"

[pintopiaffe]

No advice. Just LOFF your mare.

Keep on keeping on. Take free advice for what it's worth. ;)