(Open) water jump in stadium? Was it outlawed or just out-of-favor?

[pwynnnorman]

I was watching WEG '94 (Molokai won the silver) and noticed they had open water, tape and all. Is that still around? Just curious!

[Bobthehorse]

That seems so wrong. We spend so much time getting them to jump nicely INTO water, and then ask them to also jump over it?

[BaroquePony]

That's funny, I was just wondering about that myself. I don't see them any more.

[luise]

I seem to remember hearing at Rolex something about pure water jumps in stadium weren't allowed, but liverpools were? I could be wrong though. I does make sense though not to ask our horses to jump over water when we want them to go through it on XC.

[TheHunterKid90]

Yes, I believe that you are not allowed to have open water in the stadium phase. I think it would be very unfair to ask a great event horse to gallop and jump into water on XC day and then 24 hours later try and explain to them that now they have to jump over the large puddle in the stadium ring. :lol:

[olympicdreams04]

Back when I first started photographing Rolex, there were two permanant water hazards in the main ring. One I believe is still there and is used as the liverpool but I think the other, which was too large to be a liverpool has been removed. Mayb as recently as 2000 though they might have used an actual water hazard. I believe there were cavaletti sized rails in front. Maybe I've just had too many hard knocks to the head and am recalling incorrectly.

[beeblebrox]

Derby horses in Europe do open water and also have to go through water and they figure out the difference. They do solid and stadium fences as well as open water and a water they must gallop through all in the same course.

KNOW of at least one intermediate horse that does the AO jumpers and that owner rides him over open water in the special classes in the hunter jumper world, SO it is not impossible!

[pwynnnorman]

Yeah, clearly, it's possible, right? I mean, they were doing it in '94.

Where's Janet when you need her?

[Janet]

Yeah, clearly, it's possible, right? I mean, they were doing it in '94.

Where's Janet when you need her?

I checked the 2008 USEF rules. There is nothing one way or the other about the legality of an open water jump. But here is nothing in the penalty section about penalties for touching the water (or the tape), only penalties for lowering the height of a fence. So there wouldn't be much point in having a water jump as it would not incur any penalties.

I don't know about the FEI rules, and don't have the time to check at the moment.

Then I checked the 1994 AHSA rules, and it DOES talk about a water jump IN THE LIST OF PERMITTED JUMPS. If I am reading it correctly, only at Prelim, Intermediate, and Advanced.

"5 penalties for knocking down an obstacle, foot in the water or on the lath."

So, sometime in between, they took it off the list of permitted obstacles.

[retreadeventer]

Janet, where are the FEI rules on that question? Do you know where to go to look them up? I can't find my way around that website.

[Janet]

Janet, where are the FEI rules on that question? Do you know where to go to look them up? I can't find my way around that website.
The FEI Eventing rules are here
http://www.fei.org/Disciplines/Eventing/Rules/Pages/Regulations.aspx

But navigating even within that is not always straightforward.

Since I had to go there to answer your question I opened up
http://www.fei.org/Disciplines/Eventing/Rules/Documents/Ch%20III%20-%20IV%20-%20V%20Dressage-XC-Jump-changesAug08.pdf
and found this (pg 14) "A water jump is not permitted, but a water ditch with rails over is allowed."

I do not know how to access the old rules to see when it changed

[Fence2Fence]

Back when I first started photographing Rolex, there were two permanant water hazards in the main ring. One I believe is still there and is used as the liverpool but I think the other, which was too large to be a liverpool has been removed. Mayb as recently as 2000 though they might have used an actual water hazard. I believe there were cavaletti sized rails in front. Maybe I've just had too many hard knocks to the head and am recalling incorrectly.


You are remembering correctly, there were two permanent hazards.

I remember watching at least one Grand Prix were the larger hazard was used as an open water jump. Pretty cool to see that live.

Now there is nothing, as that arena has been completely bulldozed for the WEG.

[pwynnnorman]

Thanks, Janet! I wonder how it came about?

Ok, so, now where's Snoopy? He might know.

[3dazey]

I am old enough:oto have jumped open water in show jumping. I seem to remember that in the old rule book it stated that there had to be a fixed obstacle of some tiny height in front of the water...usually there was a miniature brush fence about the height of a dressage ring rail. I don't remember seeing them after about the mid-80s.

This thread got me thinking about other types of fences no longer seen in competition. Anyone remember the flying X? Think cross rail turned on its side. We used to have those in xc and in sj. I believe I'm glad those are now gone!:eek: Helsinkis seem to have fallen out of favor, as well.

[NeverTime]

I love how fences come and go. In fact, I'm counting on it:
I am postponing my Rolex debut until bounces fall out of favor and stop showing up on cross-country courses! :cool:;):lol:

[enjoytheride]

In my book "cross country riding" there is a terrifying fence called a "spread and a drop" which is a big wooden oxer and a drop on the landing. The book says it isn't common because horses see the drop in the air and put their legs down in the middle of the spread.

Also something horrible called a "ski jump" which is a log where the landing side is a steep downhill grade and then a ramp fence at the bottom of the hill.

[piaffeprincess98]

In my book "cross country riding" there is a terrifying fence called a "spread and a drop" which is a big wooden oxer and a drop on the landing. The book says it isn't common because horses see the drop in the air and put their legs down in the middle of the spread.

Also something horrible called a "ski jump" which is a log where the landing side is a steep downhill grade and then a ramp fence at the bottom of the hill.

Those seem to still be around, but they put a really skinny brush at the bottom of the hill. There was one I saw on the last European Champsionships DVD. Lots of trouble there, some horses even went into the ropes while running out at the skinny.

[Ritazza]

Now there is nothing, as that arena has been completely bulldozed for the WEG.

You mean that whole arena gone?? :eek: I take it they're building something flashier and better - is it going to be ready for Rolex next year?

[olympicdreams04]

I really might cry. I can't believe the main arena is gone. I remember when they didn't even have it and now it's gone! So very sad, many a good memory there...and a couple of bad ones too. 3dazey: I think Foxhall specialized in fences that attempted to terrify the rider. Not only did they have that Flying X that was enormous, but they also had the Trakehener with stone sides that was literally nearly 10' deep and definitely wide enough that a dirty stop could have put you in the middle of that grand canyon of trakeheners. And then their was the into space leap up on the hill above the stadium ring. It really did look like you would never land when you jumped off that. NeverTime: What are you talking about!?! Bounces are some of my absolute favorites. Come visit and you can jump some bounces on my ** mare. I looooove them!

[3dazey]

It's true; Foxhall really was a throwback in terms of the look of some of those fences. Kind of "old-timey" if you will. And funny to see some of the riders agog at what they were going to jump, and the horses completely unimpressed on xc day!

[pwynnnorman]

I am old enough:oto have jumped open water in show jumping. I seem to remember that in the old rule book it stated that there had to be a fixed obstacle of some tiny height in front of the water...usually there was a miniature brush fence about the height of a dressage ring rail. I don't remember seeing them after about the mid-80s.

This thread got me thinking about other types of fences no longer seen in competition. Anyone remember the flying X? Think cross rail turned on its side. We used to have those in xc and in sj. I believe I'm glad those are now gone!:eek: Helsinkis seem to have fallen out of favor, as well.

Serpents, tiger traps, bounces (I just watched a 93 tape of Burghley: huge, double-oxer bounce early in the course!), ditches in front that are angled, not parallel, to the jump (gone in the US, but not in Europe??), the "graben" (I could never figure out how it was different from the coffin, except in name), I haven't seen many triple steps (but I haven't seen all that many courses, either!)...multiple-option, fully-fenced (so you can't get out unless you find a way to jump out), kinda-lika-maze complexes.

[enjoytheride]

Here are some from my book that looked kind of scary to me.

spread and a drop (book says they are dangerous)
http://flickr.com/photos/20892581@N04/3064856232/

False Groundline

http://flickr.com/photos/20892581@N04/3064015029/

Landing into face of bank (undefined landing?)
http://flickr.com/photos/20892581@N04/3064014531/

Rail and Ditch in Shadow (sure it's ok, just decieving in the shadow)
http://flickr.com/photos/20892581@N04/3064854900/

Wall and drop (yes, the horse did hit the wall hard enough to knock the stones and logs off)
http://flickr.com/photos/20892581@N04/3064013639/

[Tuckertoo]

You mean that whole arena gone?? :eek: I take it they're building something flashier and better - is it going to be ready for Rolex next year?


Like, the main arena that they do Rolex Dressage and Stadium in? That's gone? Didn't they just put up the big grandstand a couple of years ago? Or am I crazy?

[pwynnnorman]

Landing into face of bank (undefined landing?)
http://flickr.com/photos/20892581@N04/3064014531/



That's just too weird. Gotta be the most unnatural obstacle I've ever seen.

[3dazey]

That picture reminds me of the original Lexington Bank. Jumped over a ditch onto an upward rise. I seem to remember it rode very poorly in a couple of its iterations...a few horses ended up back in the ditch or crumpled up upon landing on the bank. Ick. Glad that's gone.

[Fence2Fence]

Like, the main arena that they do Rolex Dressage and Stadium in? That's gone? Didn't they just put up the big grandstand a couple of years ago? Or am I crazy?

Yep, that one. Not sure what or if they are going to build anything in its place. Since I've got to be on the road in an hour and a half, I can't take the time to look up the WEG plans to see what's going to go in there. Hopefully they will just put in a bigger arena.

I have so many nice memories of that arena (and even when it was just grass for Rolex). I hate to see it gone.

There is a large indoor being built across the park (in the soccer fileds) though.

Sorry to diverge off topic from the OP.

[NeverTime]

NeverTime: What are you talking about!?! Bounces are some of my absolute favorites. Come visit and you can jump some bounces on my ** mare. I looooove them!

Thanks for the offer, but I don't think horsepower is my problem! It's purely my own internal adult-amateur weenie-ness.
But more importantly, does this mean you got your mare to a two-star? Good work and congrats! :) I was thinking you might be headed for Florida or JF next year instead.

[olympicdreams04]

NeverTime, you have a PM. Always love to brag on my rockstar mare but don't want to derail the thread.

[Tha Ridge]

Wall and drop (yes, the horse did hit the wall hard enough to knock the stones and logs off)
http://flickr.com/photos/20892581@N04/3064013639/

Okay, those are some terrifying fences. They make me glad that I've stuck with the Hunter ring, but I just wanted to comment that I love your furry assistant in the top left corner of this picture. Where would we be without them to hold open the pages for us? :lol:

[enjoytheride]

Lol, I thought all my pics didn't have his feet in them! He was minding his own business until I started taking pictures.

Do they still use "unfinished bridge" jumps?

[Evalee Hunter]

Wynn - I saw & read the article in the print Chronicle. Christin Trainor (may not have spelled that correctly) is a friend of my daughter from pony club.