satchmo good again at stuttgart, past bad behavior due to back problem

[slc2]

Several stories are out on various sites with results from Stuttgart, some saying Isabel had told reporters that perhaps at Hong Kong the horse had a kink in his back.

[sm]

It looked to me like the horse was suprised by sudden jolt of pain -- not a disobedience or rider issue. Whether pain was from the bit/tongue/lip or elsewhere, I couldn't guess.

Best wishes he stays well...

[slc2]

Others had said the horse has a long history of playing up.

I noticed when the horse played up Isabel Werth seemed to immediately ask him to stretch. While it can be useful for any horse that gets excited I think it would help a horse with something with his back.

I tried out a horse in Europe that would suddenly take off or leap around. I believe nothing was actually found by a vet, but after a year of stretching work he appears to be completely normal now. He also looks different now - more muscle over his back.

[Palogal]

I watched the Stuttgart show on the computer. Isabel won the Special with a wonderful ride on Satchmo. He piaffed. No problem. During the interview she got all choked up and cried. I truly felt for her.
Until......... she made that comment about him having a kink in his back in Hong Kong. Well now, that was one hell of a kink because he did the same thing, in exactly the same portion of the test in piaffe at Aachen the first of July. I was there and saw it for myself. I assumed he spooked at something and bolted backwards. But when he did it again at the Olympics I realized it was a training issue. Why did she say that??? He's still a Phenom. A freakishly talented horse. So he's got an issue. Why lie??? I just don't get it.

[goeslikestink]

I watched the Stuttgart show on the computer. Isabel won the Special with a wonderful ride on Satchmo. He piaffed. No problem. During the interview she got all choked up and cried. I truly felt for her.
Until......... she made that comment about him having a kink in his back in Hong Kong. Well now, that was one hell of a kink because he did the same thing, in exactly the same portion of the test in piaffe at Aachen the first of July. I was there and saw it for myself. I assumed he spooked at something and bolted backwards. But when he did it again at the Olympics I realized it was a training issue. Why did she say that??? He's still a Phenom. A freakishly talented horse. So he's got an issue. Why lie??? I just don't get it.

because some people are sore losers and make any excuse up as winning mean more than anything else and one shouldnt blame his tools ie the horse

[slc2]

why would it have to be a lie?

she may have struggled with this horse for a long time if others are telling the truth - perhaps she's gone for a long time wondering what's going on and why occasionally the horse acts up, and perhaps had some input from someone new or simply now feels a 'kink' (muscle spasm, discomfort, weakness) could have been responsible for his problems.

like some people she may have tried a number of things and simply been stumped as to why the horse acts up from time to time. there have been a lot of suggestions made - he spooked, he stepped on himself, he tripped. he was in pain, he was misbehaving because she's such a horrible rider and trainer and trained him badly (from a poster here, i forget which one), alot of people have had all sorts of different ideas about why the horse did that.

i don't think it's her in that sense. she has been for a very long time, a very good rider and usually solves problems with horses, rather than creating them. there are tons of footage of her training youngsters. it's very interesting how she works. it doesn't look like she's a rough or bad trainer.

i think the horse might have been tense in the arena, and that might aggravate a muscle problem.

the horse i wanted never had any sure veterinary diagnosis - there was nothing diagnosed. yet he had this problem. and he was ridden very normally and dozens of other horses didn't react that way to the same work.

horse's muscles don't have to all develop equally. some muscles remain underdeveloped and take special work to develop or never develop properly despite a lot of effort and classical schooling and training. with one horse i had the muscles over the back developed very well but not the muscles around the stifle. other horses on same work had good muscle progress there.

not everything is known or sure, even to the top riders. i'm sure they puzzle over problems sometimes even with the best of vets and farriers. especially when the behavior doesn't occur all the time it can be very, very puzzling.

[egontoast]

I tried out a horse in Europe that would suddenly take off or leap around

Are you saying it's a Europe thing? Otherwise why is the location of a horse you tried at all relevant to Satchmo's issue other than to mention, yet again, that you once went to europe to look for a horse? WOWIE! :lol:

[Pommederue]

Sorry but "kink in the back" sounds ridiculous to me too but what is she supposed to say? He was a bugger that day? I say it's a bit of an obedience issue just like when Peron did it in the '96(?) Olympics. Basically he just said 'no'. However I don't look at Isabel as being a 'sore loser' -- ever...

[egontoast]

well this is how rumours get going. Someone reads what someone thinks somewhere else and then reposts it and then it's taken as fact.

Read the OP again before you decide what isabel actually said . Several stories on several sites and some said that she said.....what's that? quadruple hearsay? oh then it must be true.:lol:

[Palogal]

In Aachen it was "an unfortunate spook" -
The first time in the Olympics it was a "disobedience" -
The second time in the Olympics it was a " severe disobedience" (which was a carbon copy of the Aachen "spook")

I admire her greatly as a rider, competitor, and trainer. Clearly she can produce world class horses.
I just don't like her acting as though these instances are like a total shock to her. He's got an issue of some kind with piaffe. Or he did. There is no shame in admitting to having a problem to sort out.

Believe me, I'm not dissing her or Satchmo. He's the most incredible thing I've ever seen.
Words cannot describe some of the wonderful things he does. His trot half pass will probably go down in history. It made me stop breathing.

[slc2]

No, egon, as you well know, i don't mean it's a Europe thing. I mean in the case i ran into recently, the horse was in Europe at that time. However, the horse is now sold and in america and doing very well. But for some reason his back muscles just did not develop over time and it took a lot of guess work and trying different things to work it out.

I still have the same question. Why is what she said some sort of copping out or lie? I don't follow your logic about why what she said is so offensive or some sort of bad thing for her to say. It sounds like she was being honest, that she thinks some sort of back problem might be connected with the horse's acting up at Hong Kong. Others have said as much, why is it so wrong for her to say it.

The term 'kink' is probably not the best translation of what she meant either.

Too, as we have seen here especially recently, and especially with this controversial olympics, you cannot really count on the press and media overall to always deliver to us exactly what a person said, so I see EVEN LESS reason to get all huffy with isabel werth over this.

[Lisa Cook]

I tried out a horse in Europe that would suddenly take off or leap around.

What an amazing coincidence....I had a good old fashioned American off the track Thoroughbred who did the exact same thing! I had no idea at the time that such behavior was apparently a European affliction. I just thought the horse was being an ass, silly me, when he was, in reality, channeling his inner-European-warmblood-wannabe self.

[slc2]

I never said that being in Europe had anything to do with it, and as i already stated after the first meow remark, so the statement above is just meant to be rude and insulting, i guess.

the horse did change hands tho, that was the point, and that means it wasn't easy to fix.

as for gee, a thb can take off too, yeah, well, meow, but actually it's probably easier to see an ottb has less muscle in the back than to see same problem on a warmblood type horse.

i think why a horse does something isn't always clear or quick/easy to find or fix. in that horse's case it took a lot of work, worry, thought, to try and fix it.

[J-Lu]

One thing I'll say about Isabell is that in about 15 years of reading her press releases, I've not seen her blame her horse for a bad performance. I've seen her say "we had a bad day", or "I wasn't sharp enough" or "we just weren't on". Having followed her career for a long time (and having been around very nice dressage horses with kinks on performance day and having seen satchmo go previously), I totally buy that Satchmo had a kink in his back. He looked it. The rest of their performace was pretty damned good, though.

[kashmere]

what the heck? how does such an innocuous phrase spark so much cattiness? holy thread derailer.

if satchmo's issue, whatever it may have been, has been resolved, that's great. a muscle problem doesn't seem improbable; though of course, it could always have been a training issue, or a combination of the two.

[egontoast]

still have the same question. Why is what she said some sort of copping out or lie? I don't follow your logic about why what she said is so offensive or some sort of bad thing for her to say. It sounds like she was being honest, that she thinks some sort of back problem might be connected with the horse's acting up at Hong Kong. Others have said as much, why is it so wrong for her to say it.


WHAT?? I didn't say that. You address me by name and then say the above. I guess you meant that for Palogal, so why not say so.

Who knows what Isabel said? Maybe she said something like it could have been a kink in his back, but SO WHAT???

The term 'kink' is probably not the best translation of what she meant either.

Too, as we have seen here especially recently, and especially with this controversial olympics, you cannot really count on the press and media overall to always deliver to us exactly what a person said, so I see EVEN LESS reason to get all huffy with isabel werth over this.

So ,what is your point slc in posting this inane thread and how many pages do you think we need on it? You make it sound like someone else started the thread.

[Eclectic Horseman]

I watched the Stuttgart show on the computer. Isabel won the Special with a wonderful ride on Satchmo. He piaffed. No problem. During the interview she got all choked up and cried. I truly felt for her.
Until......... she made that comment about him having a kink in his back in Hong Kong. Well now, that was one hell of a kink because he did the same thing, in exactly the same portion of the test in piaffe at Aachen the first of July. I was there and saw it for myself. I assumed he spooked at something and bolted backwards. But when he did it again at the Olympics I realized it was a training issue. Why did she say that??? He's still a Phenom. A freakishly talented horse. So he's got an issue. Why lie??? I just don't get it.

Obviously, you've never had a back problem yourself! :lol:

As someone who has, let me tell you that they are not usually one time things--but they can be things that come and go. You move the wrong way, a nerve gets pinched and sends a jolt of pain down an arm or leg that feels like an electric shock. Or you get muscle spasm that feels like a toothache, and when you try to move you feel like someone stuck an ice pick in your back.

Veterinary medicine is extremely bad at diagnosing back problems in horses. Nuclear scans show that many if not most horses have inflammation in the thoractic spine--yet some horses are symptomatic and others are not.

In humans, you need an MRI to diagnose most back problems like ruptured discs and pinched nerves. Those sort of diagnostic tools are not being used for equine spines yet, I don't believe.

Just to add one more illustration--my sister had a horse that she suspected had back trouble on and off for years, although her vet could not diagnose it. She tried everything under the sun, every kind of pad, saddle, accupuncture, massage therapy, etc. etc. Each time the horse would seem to get better for a while. Then the problem (out of the blue rodeo bucking) would return. He was humanely destroyed at 9 or 10 years old after he was diagnosed with bone cancer...

[torontodressage]

It could very well be an Isabell problem because Warum Nicht also showed some strange behavior at the German championships:yes:

[Sabine]

From what I have read and seen on videos I think it is possible that he has a scyatic nerve issue that flares up when he's working hard etc. I don't believe it's a training issue. The horse had a lot of 'performance issues' prior to his eye surgery where it was found that he had little 'floaters' obscuring his eye sight which led to him spooking at things (during tests) that weren't there.
I don't believe in a training issues with this specific rider/horse combo- but rather a hard to find/diagnose/treat scyatic issue. There are many ways to attempt to treat that- but there is no sure way to know that the treatment has worked and there is for sure no way to tell easily when the issue flares up again.

just my 5c.

[torontodressage]

Found it


http://www.viddler.com/explore/oldmastertour/videos/26/

[Pommederue]

It could very well be an Isabell problem because Warum Nicht also showed some strange behavior at the German championships:yes:

Warum just seemed spooky and inattentive that day...different from just saying 'NO' I think.

[Ginger]

...or maybe he just hated the environment at Hong Kong. Smart horses try to express themselves. Sometimes we just don't listen.

I am glad he is back, he takes my breath away. And if there is something Isabell is doing wrong, I would like to do the same. :) She's an incredible rider.

[Mozart]

Good lord, horses are not automatons. When your team mate is a living, breathing, thinking creature not everything is predictable and stuff happens. Maybe he has had a transient pain somewhere. Maybe he does his job most of the time but sometimes says "not now".

I don't think anyone really knows for sure except for Satchmo and until I see him posting on his own blog I am inclined to not come to any firm conclusions other than being happy that things are going well for them.

[Fixerupper]

Found it


http://www.viddler.com/explore/oldmastertour/videos/26/

Oh my god..that was horrifying - if I were her I'd give both horses away and quit riding! ;)

[egontoast]

Isabel is arguably the best dressage rider and trainer out there on this planet today (JMHO).

If there is a problem with Satchmo, I very much doubt it has anything to do with sub standard training.

[Pony Fixer]

Oh my god..that was horrifying - if I were her I'd give both horses away and quit riding! ;)

I'm assuming that this was tongue-in-cheek (the horrifying part). I mean, clearly he's spooky about something at C, he gets tense and occasionally gives in to it a few times around C, but otherwise has a good ride.

I agree with egon that Werth is bar none the best out there.

[Palogal]

OK People! I certainly did not mean to get so much hostility flying.
I apologize for using the word "lie". Too strong I admit.
And I certainly didn't mean to imply she can't train when I said "training issue".
As I've already stated, I'm a fan of hers. I wanted her to win the Individual Gold Medal.
She's awesome.
I was thrilled to see both of her big horses go so well at the Stuttgart show.

It is certainly possible Satchmo had a back problem that caused him to misbehave so violently
on the 3 occasions I've seen.
It is also possible that he has a resistance issue with a movement. Something to resolve with training. i.e. training issue

The only thing that bothered me is that, in my opinion, every time it happened she "appeared" to act surprised about it when questioned.
Maybe she's just one that plays her cards close to the vest.

The video posted of Warum Nicht is not the same thing at all. He is clearly tense and spooking throughout the test. Bad day.

[Sabine]

Isabel is arguably the best dressage rider and trainer out there on this planet today (JMHO).

If there is a problem with Satchmo, I very much doubt it has anything to do with sub standard training.

thank you- for saying that. I love Isabel and I believe she is by far the best- stand-alone- performing rider/trainer/competitor out there....I do not believe she would ignore physical or training issues for that matter- she just has some amazing horses that she trained from scratch and like any living creature- they also have an achilles heel somewhere...but I think she is a first class horse woman/trainer/competitor and I respect her highly.

Satchmo has always been a handful- but she loves him and I can relate to that very much-Hannes (Warum Nicht) is a HUGE horse and I truly admire anyone that can keep a huge horse sound in this business...it is a very fine line to get top performance out of them all the time!

[goeslikestink]

it was a spook and caught unawares ---- thats all
no one can be 100% all of the time even the best faulter

and as for this tread starter off by slc2 all its doing is blowing something up out of proportion
ie making mountians out of mole hills
which could be deem as trying to give someone a bad name via gossip

[Equa]

Oh for heaven's sake, if it was a show jumper who had an uncharacteristic couple of rails or a stop, there would be less than zero column inches devoted to it. Just because some old bags reckon Dr'sarge is ALL about obedience, suddenly one of the best and most fabulous dressage combinations in the world is headed for the scrapheap? Just Shut Up And Ride!

[Auventera Two]

Like someone else said, back pain can be really difficult to diagnose in horses. It's completely possible that the horse has pain, or even just massive tightness, that shows up when he performs piaffe, because it requires so much muscle strength. Really intelligent horses are more likely to "act out" than to plug on and not say anything.

After our ulcer setback this summer, I've learned much more than ever to really look for a medical cause if a horse seems to have a "training issue."

But back pain can be so difficult to pinpoint. I own a horse that came to me with back pain from a really bad fitting saddle. The poor girl would ear pin and grind her teeth when she heard a little "klinkle tink" of the girth buckles jingling as you came out of the tack room with the saddle and girth on your arm. It took awhile to figure out exactly where it was, and how to treat it.

I imagine a team of vets and chiros have been trying to figure out the horse's back issue, but it's probably difficult to do so. Sometimes diagnosing a medical problem can take a long time.

I admire Isabell Werth very much, and always have. :) I can't imagine any horse of hers having holes in its training, or training issues. If she says its a back problem, I'd be inclined to believe it. She's a wonderful rider and gleaming example of a professional, a horsewoman, and a good sport.

[mheathcurry]

spot on egontoast!!!!!!!!!!!!!
and no, this does not mean were friends, well unless you ask first!
just kidding, relax, please no further posts on what an ass I am, I have recieved the memo, note taken, i get it, but that was a pretty cool call on the whole "I went to Europe once" thing , so did I, actually ,3 times, OOOPS, now Im doing it, DAMN! , how many times have you gone Egon?
Ok Im done. . .. . .

[mheathcurry]

Oh for heaven's sake, if it was a show jumper who had an uncharacteristic couple of rails or a stop, there would be less than zero column inches devoted to it. Just because some old bags reckon Dr'sarge is ALL about obedience, suddenly one of the best and most fabulous dressage combinations in the world is headed for the scrapheap? Just Shut Up And Ride!

Amen!