young horse canter frustration

[bigbaytb]

Ok..I'm an eventer and a Hunter, but I feel i may get some of the best ideas in the dressage forum.


I have a 4 year old wb mare, 15.3 hands. still some room to grow. she has a lovely trot and walk and in general very good about being soft and using her back. the few intro dressage tests i've done with her this year have averaged in the 68's.

but her canter SUCKS. lunging, she would always swap behind..have fixed that since summer, so none of that. and it's still fairly flat. I do hack out when i can and her canter..which is quick right now, is much better outside and i usually ride it in 2 point. I have hilltopped her foxhunting a couple times..she loves the gallop part and is still very well mannered, will jump no problem (i still limit that to low stuff). she stays fairly balance for the hunt, but as i said, i limit it right now.....but canter in the arena...still sucks.

there are many schools of thought on what to do and i'm at a quandry on what to do...either ask for depart and canter til it gets unbalanced and then stop and regroup (lasts about 5 steps)...or some say keep cantering (aka, she's almost at a hand gallop sometimes) to help build up that back end, balanced or not.. and not to worry about the head until the canter gets there...sooo....

UGh..i will describe the canter and open the door for the opinions to rush in! i feel that maybe i'm not helping it either and trying to keep my body out of her way...

here we go...to the left ...Soft quiet trot, ask for depart..left lead, she easily stays soft and leaps forward into canter..will keep balance then start to get faster, sometimes start to pull down on bit..us leg to fluff and get head up..she gets off bit and goes faster then unbalanced. she likes to lean on left shoulder a bit which is harder to control at canter. she also can easily get too deep on this side..

right lead. still acts like she first learned to canter..gets hollow/throws nose in air for depart...then will round a bit more in canter..but charge forward..balance no-where to be found!.....after a couple attempts, do get softness and leap into canter (and i'm asking quietly) but does not maintain balance...

so, what say you?

[Eclectic Horseman]

Hmm, you say that you have longed her and that she no longer swaps leads behind. But how does she do otherwise on the longe? I find that if I can get the horse to find its balance on the longe in a circle with side reins first, then there is not much problem transitioning to the same circle in the canter when mounted--so long as the horse has gotten used to my weight in the walk and trot first. The key is that the horse has to be straight, evenly curved through the body away from the center of the circle not popping a shoulder or leaning in or out or throwing the haunches one way or the other. The straight lines and hacking out don't help this problem much because it is a question of finding her balance on the circle (or corner.)

Finding the balance going large in the arena can be an issue at first. So I avoid any corners at all in the beginning--just make a big egg or oval shape. Going from a 20 meter circle to large, then right back to another 20 meter circle also helps the horse to find his balance. Then you can make your corners like a piece of a 20 meter circle as the horse gets more balanced.

So I guess the answer is: yes, canter, but set the horse up to succeed. Do transition down before she gets unbalanced or crooked-- there is no sense practicing it wrong, or she will learn to do it wrong perfectly. ;) But she can't learn to canter without cantering, so you just need to make it as easy as possible for her to succeed.

[goeslikestink]

the horse is a baby of 4yrs old and notbalanced how th heck do you exspect it to behave
if you havent done the foundational work of schooling it ie master the walk the trot before the canter and get the horse balanced straight and forwards
long rein her, which will help her balance and help with baisc commands and signals then bring her back into the school and use the full lenght of the school better to be a square one rather than a round one, go large before you can go small with the horse as tight circles will only add stresses and strians on undeveloped legs and mussles,
then use all the wlak strides with a half halt stride in each transition using the length of the area and width to help the horse use her hinds underneath to help her get her balance
so via lenghtening and shortening your strides will help her get the balance as she shifts her weight from one hind to the other, then move up on to trot and use all the trot strides with half halts in between then mix the wlak with the trot with half halts then once mastered then move up in to canter and use the wlak and the trot and slowly introduce the cnater stride with half halts down one side of the arena once mastered then use all cnater strides and counter canter........ dont run before you can walk

the horse is 4yrs old and doesnt know anything and its up to you to teach her if shes unblanced then thats down to you rushing this mare into doing things shes really not ready for yet and as good heartted and honest as she is she trying darn hard to understand what your asking of her but really hasnt got the slightest clue
be fair and go back to flat work - wont take long give her time to diegest it once she performs what your asking then put her away or out in the field dont keeep on and on and on---- even if she gets it after 5 or 10mins put her away and let her sleep on it
this will give her time to diegest and think and will also give you a goal as you have achieve something with her -- time and patience makes a good horse

here read these links posted by me ther are all relevent http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=177558

[goeslikestink]

Ok..I'm an eventer and a Hunter, but I feel i may get some of the best ideas in the dressage forum.


I have a 4 year old wb mare, 15.3 hands. still some room to grow. she has a lovely trot and walk and in general very good about being soft and using her back. the few intro dressage tests i've done with her this year have averaged in the 68's.

but her canter SUCKS. lunging, she would always swap behind..have fixed that since summer, so none of that. and it's still fairly flat. I do hack out when i can and her canter..which is quick right now, is much better outside and i usually ride it in 2 point. I have hilltopped her foxhunting a couple times..she loves the gallop part and is still very well mannered, will jump no problem (i still limit that to low stuff). she stays fairly balance for the hunt, but as i said, i limit it right now.....but canter in the arena...still sucks.

there are many schools of thought on what to do and i'm at a quandry on what to do...either ask for depart and canter til it gets unbalanced and then stop and regroup (lasts about 5 steps)...or some say keep cantering (aka, she's almost at a hand gallop sometimes) to help build up that back end, balanced or not.. and not to worry about the head until the canter gets there...sooo....

UGh..i will describe the canter and open the door for the opinions to rush in! i feel that maybe i'm not helping it either and trying to keep my body out of her way...

here we go...to the left ...Soft quiet trot, ask for depart..left lead, she easily stays soft and leaps forward into canter..will keep balance then start to get faster, sometimes start to pull down on bit..us leg to fluff and get head up..she gets off bit and goes faster then unbalanced. she likes to lean on left shoulder a bit which is harder to control at canter. she also can easily get too deep on this side..

right lead. still acts like she first learned to canter..gets hollow/throws nose in air for depart...then will round a bit more in canter..but charge forward..balance no-where to be found!.....after a couple attempts, do get softness and leap into canter (and i'm asking quietly) but does not maintain balance...

so, what say you?

i want you to pay perticular attention to the above what you wrote
as your not riding this horse via independant seat nor between leg and hands
hands play abig part in trianing ahorse and you must never use your hands for balancing your body weight or support your body weight and thus is very apparent in the last 2 paragraphs of what your saying
so read this link well

http://www.meredithmanor.com/features/articles/faith/fixing_bit_evasions.asp

[purplnurpl]

The swapping behind is a weakness issue. That is why it went away over time on the lunge.
What kind of hook up do you use on her when she is lunging? (vienna rein/side rein with doughnut/german bungie)?

The canter is a very hard gait to improve. This is why pros by a horse for their canter.
Its takes a lot of time if the horse doesn't have it naturally.

I'd for sure stay in two point at large. MO on the unbalanced canter...if she's that unbalanced after you get going stop and regroup. Don't try to hang on to the tips of a poor canter (when she needs to break back to trot).

Improve the canter on the lunge (but use something that makes her work over her back with her neck a little lower) and the canter will get better under saddle.

I think your question was great BTW. Don't give in to outside pressure: (Pro riders that have 5 year old running Prelim) Horses all progress on their own timescale.
Your mare will be fine. : )

Have a great time with her. Babies are wonderful.

[Mozart]

She just sounds really unbalanced. Which, given the fact that she is a four year old WB, is not the end of the world. I had similar issues with my young WB and basically he was running onto the forehand because he was not strong enough to hold his balance.

I think a lazy horse needs to be energized to keep going but if she is forward and running because she is unbalanced there is little to be gained by zooming around with the horse leaning and running onto the forehand and bearing down on the reins, so I am not in the camp of "make her keep going".

I would suggest a program to strengthen the horse, LOTS of transitions and transitions within transitions. You don't want to lunge a 4 year old TOO much but some work on the lunge that includes transitions and spiraling in and out of the circle will help as well.

Still canter, but when things start to fall apart, transition to trot or walk, re-establish balance, suppleness and a good connection and try again.

Just be patient and it will come, a stride at a time.

[EqTrainer]

Personally I would probably start paying a lot more attention to the transition itself.

In the beginning, we ask young horses to just canter. We don't really care how they get into it, we don't really care what lead it is, we just don't care... as long as they canter.

Eventually, we start refining HOW they transition into the canter. Because a horse who falls into the canter, is then cantering on his forehand. A horse who inverts into the canter is now cantering inverted. Get the idea?

Only you know, since you are riding this horse, if she is ready for you to begin refining her transitions. If she is, then change your focus from canter NOW to canter LIKE THIS. You will begin to insist, a little bit at a time, on her keeping herself the same in the canter transition as she was in the trot. Actually if you think about it, we spend a lifetime refining transitions between DO IT NOW and DO IT LIKE THIS. That is how they improve.

I would also be careful during this part of her training to not canter about willy nilly in the arena. If you do so, you are training her to canter that way. Get a good transition, canter a few good strides and then YOU bring her back to the trot.


It is true, for the most part, that you should try to buy a canter as it is the hardest gait to improve. But it sounds like your horse perhaps doesn't have a BAD canter, just that she is at the stage where she needs to learn to transition properly so she can stay balanced in the canter. It's a pretty common training error for people to make, to focus too much on the NOW or even the LIKE THIS if you aren't used to seeing it that way. A pro knows when/how to alternate between the two and most of them don't even think about it, so don't feel that you've done anything wrong, you are just at a stage where you get to learn to do something better :)

That's what it's all about!

As far as her needing more strength? It is hard to build strength to canter better by cantering badly ;) it sounds like your horse is probably quite fit given the things you mention she already does. Furthermore, it's not like you are asking for collection, you are asking for *balance*. Lastly, I might lighten my seat after the transition but I probably wouldn't *stay* in two point for this work. You need your seat to keep her in front of your leg and reaching out to your hand to get balanced. Of course there are always exceptions to this, you'll have to figure that out for yourself as you are the one riding :)

[Gracie]

Your horse is still growing. Warmbloods are slow growers and it takes a lot of strength and balance carry a rider at canter.

Assuming there are no physical reasons preventing the canter, you must wait for your horse to catch up with your training ambitions. My TB-Percheron cross mare would not canter with any kind of regularity until she was 6, especially right lead. I knew she could canter, because she did so in the pasture.

Fortunately, I boarded at a barn with access to lots of hills, some with a 45-degree grade. When I knew she had the strength to canter with me on her, I taught her to pick up right lead canter riding perpendicular to the hill.

Ensure your seat and balance are independent of the horse. If you're not sure, get some eyes on the ground, either person or video. Take your time, don't push it. The canter will come when your horse is ready.

[merrygoround]

As said before, the swapping behind is a strength and balance issue. While she is no longer doing it, that doesn't mean she is strong enough to maintain her balance in an arena. Either continue to canter her outside in two point, or use the longe line with side reins to help balance her to save yourself the frustration of the leaning and hanging.

Certainly improving her walk, and trot lateral work will be useful also. :yes: :yes:

[Perfect Pony]

My TB-Percheron cross mare would not canter with any kind of regularity until she was 6, especially right lead. I knew she could canter, because she did so in the pasture.

My little Hanoverian mare is 6 1/2 years old now and still struggles to canter in the arena in a balanced fashion.

The OPs horse is only 4!

[slc2]

It's no more normal for a six year old to struggle to canter in a ring than it is for a 4 year old or a 3 year old.

Get help. A horse doesn't need to be tearing around, tossing its head, running in the canter, at 3, 4, 5, or 6.

As it's worse in one direction I'd say your horse is crooked and off balance. Get a good trainer who can see what's going wrong and help you get it fixed.

It's simply not true that the horse HAS to be that way because it's young. Experienced professional dressage trainers aren't having those problems constantly with every horse, it's all in just getting some help and finding out how to do things.

Basically, everything a horse does has to do with his balance. Most will always bolt in the same direction, always spook in the same direction, etc. Everything they do - even 'being naughty' on the longe.

The horse swapping leads on the back end isn't due to weakness or young age either. An inexperienced person can take a horse that never swapped leads and longe it and have it losing its leads in both directions in a matter of seconds; a more experienced person can take the youngster that swaps leads on the longe and correct him almost immediately. Yes, as a kid, it was humbling to see my dressage trainer take over the longe line on my extreme green bean and have him canter around quietly and correctly and keep his leads.

It's not being longed properly, side reins are the wrong length, it's bent the wrong way on the circle, not connecting properly and making a contact with the longe line or side reins. Instruction is the key - plus being open to the idea of 'hey, I can do something about this!'

[sid]

Young, growing horses can barely carry themselves at the canter sans rider...much less with weight and someone who may be flopping all over their back (not to slam your riding..but because they unbalance a rider).

It seems to me that you want to much too soon of this horse. To say the canter "sucks" speaks of wanting too much too soon of a growing horse. Not their fault.

[slc2]

I agree in principle, but i see horses going on for months and months and getting worse instead of better and stop thinking this has to do with age, when they should be getting used to the work and coming along.

[Perfect Pony]

It's no more normal for a six year old to struggle to canter in a ring than it is for a 4 year old or a 3 year old.


Oh BULLS*%& slc. Please, can you please post some video of you actually on a horse to back up all your holier than thou pronouncements?!

My mare has 8-9 gaits, not just my opinion but the opinion of International caliber judges. And I am not scared to post actual video of our struggles. She is a late bloomer and has an ENORMOUS stride for her 15.2 hand frame, she is incredibly claustrophobic in a dressage court and finds it very hard, yes still as a 6 year old, to balance herself in canter. I have been assured by several International caliber trainers that it is in fact perfectly normal for some horses, even more so one that has been started and trained almost entirely by an amateur who is happy to go at her horse's own pace.

Can it get frustrating? Yes. Could she be pushed. Probably, and she'd most likely end up sore and with ulcers. Many 5 and 6 year olds are still very unbalanced and lack confidence at the canter. It can be even worse for a growing 4 year old WB mare.

And guess what? My mare has even gone through stages where she gets worse. If you have ever really trained a horse you will know that one step forward, 2-3 steps back can indeed be NORMAL.

[sid]

slc2, I agree with that as well in theory, but sometimes not in reality.

This OP's situation all depends upon the individual, and their growth stage, and response to having to deal with their own imbalance. If the OP is novice at riding and bringing along young horses and doesn't understand what to "forgive" and when to "push through it" because they don't understand how growth imbalances affect certain gaits from week to week (because the horse is struggling to balance themselves when even "free) can be catastrophic for the training of young, growing horses.


Frustration shouldn't even be a part of the equation from the rider's standpoint, IMO and IME.

[slc2]

holier than thou my third eye. i said right there that i was having my horse lose his lead and the trainer took the longe line and didn't have a single problem with it - it's a humbling experience but i STILL believe that if there's a problem, i can do something a little differently and improve it, I can learn and change and make it better.

i didn't say i was perfect, i said these things do not HAVE to be simply because the animal is a certain age. if a horse is throwing his head, losing his lead, racing around off balance for months and months, that can be worked on successfully and be improved. the age of the horse is no reason for that to go on and on.

I DO believe many youngsters come out awkward and gawky as sue said, but if after months of training there is no improvement something about the training needs to change. I see all the time, these things going on long after the youngster with the more experienced trainer has resolved them. there, it's technique, not age of the animal.

[sid]

Im not sure I understand your reply. Perhaps that's because I didn't read all your posts on this thread, just the last one.

Some horses just need more time and tact. Others need to be pushed.

A good trainer/rider knows when to push and when to back off -- at least that's been my experience with a multitude of top trainers at my facility.

It truly is a skill and a very intitutive thing to bring youngsters along -- nothing cookie cutter about it.The best never become frustrated though.

[slc2]

Sigh.

What I mean is not that I want to push the young horse along so fast or expect him to be advanced, and I never said that and I don't mean that at all. I've spent enough time going back with older horses or riding my own youngster; I know there are basics that need to happen first. I understand that. I understand that some horses need to be pushed too. I have one that can't be pushed in any way but has such good natural balance there is very little yiou actually have to do, and one that needs to be urged along and has very little natural balance and needs more active riding.

What I mean is that if my horse is off balance, tossing his head, losing his lead, racing around, I will try to see if there's something I can do to make this better, regardless of his age. There is, of course some problems every young horse has. A youngster doesn't come to the arena with the saddle on the first time being perfectly balanced. I understand that.

But I've seen and worked with people that are just very, very good with young horses. What do they do? Why don't they have the problems most of us have? A stable, secure position, no nerves, the ability to stay in the middle of the saddle, to be soft in the hand yet still help the horse balance, to let the horse move forward yet sit securely and quietly so he can balance, to use the longeing equipment gently yet skillfully to help the horse balance yet move forward - that makes it possible to ride youngsters in a way that leads them along in the right direction. I am not saying I can always do that, I am saying I see that as the solution to a whole lotta problems with young horses.

[Perfect Pony]

Sorry, this board just drives me nuts sometimes. IMO too many people expect far too much far too young. Horses need relaxation, companionship of other horses, variety and fitness. I see so many dressage horses that are in pain due to a lack of variety in work and fitness, bored to death, and stressed out. It's a 4 year old, take the horse out on the trail, do lots of long and low trotting, and if she's struggling with the canter in the ring at 4, then lay off a little. Ride the horse you have.

[goeslikestink]

It's no more normal for a six year old to struggle to canter in a ring than it is for a 4 year old or a 3 year old.

Get help. A horse doesn't need to be tearing around, tossing its head, running in the canter, at 3, 4, 5, or 6.

As it's worse in one direction I'd say your horse is crooked and off balance. Get a good trainer who can see what's going wrong and help you get it fixed.

It's simply not true that the horse HAS to be that way because it's young. Experienced professional dressage trainers aren't having those problems constantly with every horse, it's all in just getting some help and finding out how to do things.

Basically, everything a horse does has to do with his balance. Most will always bolt in the same direction, always spook in the same direction, etc. Everything they do - even 'being naughty' on the longe.

The horse swapping leads on the back end isn't due to weakness or young age either. An inexperienced person can take a horse that never swapped leads and longe it and have it losing its leads in both directions in a matter of seconds; a more experienced person can take the youngster that swaps leads on the longe and correct him almost immediately. Yes, as a kid, it was humbling to see my dressage trainer take over the longe line on my extreme green bean and have him canter around quietly and correctly and keep his leads.

It's not being longed properly, side reins are the wrong length, it's bent the wrong way on the circle, not connecting properly and making a contact with the longe line or side reins. Instruction is the key - plus being open to the idea of 'hey, I can do something about this!'

get real slc2 horses dont stop growin till 7yrs old and some horses dont get it in there head till 7 - hence why people like to buy them at the age 0f 7 - 12 as then then done bit learnt most and can bring on and do more after 12 they been there done it and worn the t shirt depending of course how the horse was trianed and how he was brought and what tyep of carreer he had so your theory is pie in the sky

[goeslikestink]

Sorry, this board just drives me nuts sometimes. IMO too many people expect far too much far too young. Horses need relaxation, companionship of other horses, variety and fitness. I see so many dressage horses that are in pain due to a lack of variety in work and fitness, bored to death, and stressed out. It's a 4 year old, take the horse out on the trail, do lots of long and low trotting, and if she's struggling with the canter in the ring at 4, then lay off a little. Ride the horse you have.

t i agree with you

[goeslikestink]

[QUOTE=slc2;3679014]Sigh.


But I've seen and worked with people that are just very, very good with young horses. What do they do? Why don't they have the problems most of us have? A stable, secure position, no nerves, the ability to stay in the middle of the saddle, to be soft in the hand yet still help the horse balance, to let the horse move forward yet sit securely and quietly so he can balance, to use the longeing equipment gently yet skillfully to help the horse balance yet move forward

its called riding the horse properly and triaining the horse properly

[EqTrainer]

I think slc's point is, at least partially, that the rider should not be *complacent* about this issue and blame it entirely on age/condition/etc. etc. etc.

Regardless of how a horse presents when we back it, from the minute we arrive on its back we need to be working to get it into a better balance. It's not a crime to help the horse do this; they hardly enjoy careening around the arena in a tizzy either :lol:

I think people make a lot of excuses for why their horses are unbalanced undersaddle, when the reality is usually that a better rider can balance the horse without making it sore, or tired, or mentally scarred for life. In fact, getting the horse balanced as quickly as possible relaxes it. A balanced horse is relaxed mentally and physically. An unbalanced one is not.

No one learns how to do this by blowing it off as an age issue. You only learn to balance them better by acknowledging that having gotten on their back, it is now YOUR responsibility to help them into a better balance so they can indeed be relaxed and not breaking themselves down. Careening around the arena is much more likely to cause injury or soreness than quietly cantering around in balance.

And before anyone gets after me, I have NO ARENA and I manage to do this in the field and I don't let them canter willy nilly around endlessly trying to figure it out, I teach them how to be balanced at the trot and walk first and then when we do canter it's not so horrible because I KNOW I had better help them get it together NOW or maybe we are going to end up in the next county or maybe I'm going to end up being dragged across a 50 acre hay field... yes indeed, necessity is the mother of invention.. errrr.. immediacy :lol:

Adding: If I really think they are not ready to canter in a way that will progress pretty quickly into something balanced - I don't canter them undersaddle more than they can do in a reasonably balanced way.

[Valentina_32926]

Horse is unbalanced. Lots of lateral work to increase her carrying power - leg yield, half pass, SF, SI, HI, TOH - but at walk and trot. Focus on her carrying herself (once she learns the movements). Canter the 5+- steps then transition to trot back to canter repeat LOTS of times til she gets too tired to canter decently at all - those transitions will help especially if you focus on her stepping underneath herself with her hind legs during the transitions.

Be sure you help her in the canter transitions by using your seat to push her into the canter (i.e. be sure rider doesn't lean forward as that will push her on her forehand and increase the unbalanced).

It took my mare many months (over 6) to get balanced - she's also a small WB (15.1 1/2 hands) with a normal canter stride of 14 feet :yes: - and don't ask about extended. :lol:

Once she can keep a semi-balanced canter for more than 5 strides start introducing counter canter - I call it it the hill (a 3 loop serpentine will most likely be too much at first so the "hill" is a shallow loop - rail to quarter line in true canter then counter canter back to rail - where the counter canter part is more like a leg yield).

[Manes and Tails]

She's four and a half. It's not the *age* that's the issue here, however, it's the time under saddle.

Young horses are going to be unbalanced and it takes time to build the muscling to carry the rider.

I agree on lots of transitions, I *don't* agree that you should work a four year old until she's obviously tired...there's no sense to that and you'll just sour her.

Also, half halts at the trot. Half halt *then* do the canter transition, setting her up for success by being sure that the trot is balanced before asking for the canter. Keep the inside leg on lightly to remind her to bring her inside hind up under her...this works on young horses and stiff or unfit older horses alike. I don't mean push her forward necessarily, just keep it *there*...there...there...every stride.

[Horsepower]

Here's a very simple answer to one of your simple questions. I had the luck of speaking to Jane Savoie about a similar problem with a young horse of mine and simply asked whether I was better off making the horse keep cantering to build up his hind end or take the few strides balanced, regroup, and start again. She said that you are better off taking the few correct collected strides, doing a downward, and then regrouping and doing it again. In other words, lots of transitions and letting the horse go properly for as long as he can only. This will help to strengthen his back and other muscles so he can stay on the bit while cantering. (I hope I got her instructions correct, as I don't want to misquote her advice.)

[ise@ssl]

She is young and probably not strong enough behind but riding in a 2 point isn't going to keep her on her hind end to develope more strength and muscle to balance. If she were my horse - I would have a chiropractor look at her immediately - she may need adjusting not only in her sacral area but also in her atlas axis. Then I would free lunge her with side reins in an arena (with a couple people to help on the ground). We also use ground poles to do canter work with young horses. Don't over due it.

[bigbaytb]

I'm thinking it is a strength thing. she has good confirmation and there is no physical problem for a bad canter. and that she is a slow grower..she was huge as a baby and has taken her good ole sweet time..she should mature around 16-16.1 hands too..i think her body is not maturing as fast as her brain...

any way. i'm not going to get defensive seeing how some posts make assumptions about me. I'm not going through my show records, but i pretty well at dressage...and I do have trainers at the barn i'm at and this is not my only horse. I'm not made of money to have trainers ride them all the time. I have worked with many green horses..but not young ones..there is a difference and that's what i'm learning if it's a young horse issue... so i know i'm not perfect and am trying to understand when i'm not doing my job as a rider, or if its strength on the horse. she understands the walk trot work and is rounding nicely and using her back..but at this stage it is still not perfect .i know its over the back and not collection yet... she is also a quiet mare and only occassionally spooks at something, so she's not "dead" either.


I am not a person to over lunge a horse. if it's a training day thats just lunging. i have found my best results are with vienna reins..my side reins are just too long for this mare.. or i will incorporate trot poles/cavelettis (depending on if i have to share the arena or not). and maybe only 15 to 20minutes, i think it's stessful on legs going round and round and round.. A trainer did help me with the swapping leads on lunging and did say she thought it was strength and ..as i said, the she stopped it. I only lunge a few minutes before a ride if it's cold or if there was no turn out to burn off some young energy. She only gets worked 3 to 4 times a week at the most, depending on my schedule and when i can get out to ride...so patience i must learn since she's not worked all the time

I really don't like tearing around the arena, and would go back to trot when it didn't work well. I do like the oblong idea and will try that instead of a 20 meter circle too.. what i have heard, and it has been reconfirmed by some posts here that it's mostly just a strength issue..every now and then we get at step or two and it's quite a nice canter..but i've only seen it a couple times..so i know its there. and it is lovely in the pasture when she's showing off..and she has a fantastic extented trot when she feels like showing off outside. i will continue to work the transistions and lateral work. that makes sense to me, and not tear around the arena..which i think it also reconfirms to the horse that is the right thing to do instead of cantering nicely...

so ..thank you for some of the posts. and will continue to work dilligently but majority rules that she just needs time to grow and time to get her body together.

Thanks!

[ise@ssl]

Lungeing isn't about burning off energy - it's about training. If this mare is a bigger horse her skeleton is probably developing ahead of her muscle structure. Good lungeing with side reins (we use sliding side reins) HELPS the horse develope the back muscles by being able to lift the back without the riders weight. Very large circles and using ground poles helps the horse relax over the back and reach forward.

I DON'T agree with the recommendation for a lot of lateral work on a horse that's this age and already having a problem. We do use leg yielding to the wall the ask for the canter but to recommend haunches in, half pass, etc. is definitely NOT for this horse at this age.

[Mozart]

Lungeing isn't about burning off energy - it's about training. If this mare is a bigger horse her skeleton is probably developing ahead of her muscle structure. Good lungeing with side reins (we use sliding side reins) HELPS the horse develope the back muscles by being able to lift the back without the riders weight. Very large circles and using ground poles helps the horse relax over the back and reach forward.

I DON'T agree with the recommendation for a lot of lateral work on a horse that's this age and already having a problem. We do use leg yielding to the wall the ask for the canter but to recommend haunches in, half pass, etc. is definitely NOT for this horse at this age.

I agree with this as well.

[Sandy M]

Slightly different young horse canter problem and how I'm addressing it.

4.5 years old, biggish - 16.2 and leggy, pretty steady on the bit at the trot. Under saddle for a little more than a year, but ridden pretty much on a loose rein until about March 2008. Usually canters promptly and easily from trot, BUT.... no matter how nice and steady into the bridle he is, he tends to instantly hollow, suck back and raise his head when asked to canter. I then have to push him strongly forward.

Part of the problem, I know, is not always having him sufficiently forward before asking for the canter. As I have been riding him more aggressively forward into the canter, he is doing better, but still tends to pop his head up (not violently fling it up, just come way above the bit). He is half Arabian. Once cantering, his balance tends to be "up" and not falling on his forehand.

Since he responds well to voice commands, I have been working on this, usually on a circle, by getting the very best, forward, into the bridle trot I can, then sitting briefly, and giving simultaneous voice and seat/legs aids. Going in the direction in which he bends more easily, this has been working, and the last few times (i.e., last night) I have asked him to canter in this manner, he came above the bit, but instead of raising his head way up, stretched it forward and out. In the other direction, he was more forward into the canter - no sucking back - but still raised his head.

Once he is cantering, no matter how good/bad the depart was, he comes nicely into the bridle in his "soft" direction, and ditto in the other direction, but it takes a little longer.

I'm assuming it's a question of (our) balance and my coordination/use of aids. I am trying to be as steady and quiet as possible, and we do seem to be making progress. Since this thread was about younsters/cantering, I guess I'd just ask if anyone has had similar canter depart issues with youngsters and what exercises, etc. you used to work through it. His down transitions (canter/trot) tend to be very nice, forward, into the bridle.

[bigbaytb]

I agree with this as well.

Yes..I do too. I should have specified that I just do leg yields..she's not ready for any of the other stuff for a long while..and we don't do it often..just to the wall every now and then....

[Eclectic Horseman]

Lungeing isn't about burning off energy - it's about training. If this mare is a bigger horse her skeleton is probably developing ahead of her muscle structure. Good lungeing with side reins (we use sliding side reins) HELPS the horse develope the back muscles by being able to lift the back without the riders weight. Very large circles and using ground poles helps the horse relax over the back and reach forward.


Thanks isse, I was about to say the same. I like to longe in a round pen if there is one available of the right size because it acts as the outside aids. Double longeing can also help with this.

Folks really give up a valuable tool if they don't learn how to longe correctly and longe their young horses judiciously. You can teach the horse very quickly to bend through the ribs, raise his back and reach for the bit on the longe line--without the added weight or additional stimula from the rider. It is not for the purpose of burning energy at all-- it is to teach the horse the basics of how to carry himself under saddle. If he can't do it on the longe by himself, how is he expected to do it with the weight of a rider? Long periods of longeing are unnecessary. 10-15 minutes 3-4 times a week is plenty, including warm up and walking. If I ride after longeing, it is just in the transition period, and then it is just 10 minutes of each (mounted and unmounted.) Before long, the longe line is no longer necessary at all.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I guess I'm of the school of thought that in this situation....it is better to do transitions and only expect a few strides of canter in the ring.


I think that there are horses that you need to work on keeping the canter longer....my 4 year old is that way....but those are horses with naturally very balanced and good canters. My guy is actually harder to keep the canter on the long side of the ring than he is on a circle. But regardless....you don't keep cantering in an unbalanced crappy canter and expect it to get better.

[Perfect Pony]

Hi Sandy!

I have your horse! I posted a thread once on here all about my frustration with my mare using her head to balance into the canter. She's 6 and I still struggle with it, but more and more often I occasionally get a good transition where she uses her back.

I have taken many clinics with great instructors over the past year, and they all have different ways of addressing it, from being aggressive about shortening your reins and being really forward into the canter...to telling me not to worry about it! :confused: I have used a combination of things, including the dreaded draw reins a couple of times to show her she CAN do it, as well as lunging in side reins.

My mare is a sensitive thing who tries to please, and if she doesn't feel she can do something physically things go down hill instead of progress. So for me it been patience, which is starting to pay off as she gets stronger.

[Hony]

I would try a running martingale. Sometimes it helps babies to settle in the bridle a bit. I would also return to trot whenever the canter starts to get strung out. Ask for canter, if the stride/balance is good then continue on your merry way. If it gets a bit quicker ask for trot, regroup and try again.
Make sure YOU are not getting excited when you are in canter, think about your rhythm, count in your head. I would also stay in a half seat until the horse is more balanced.

[Sandy M]

Hi Sandy!

I have your horse! I posted a thread once on here all about my frustration with my mare using her head to balance into the canter. She's 6 and I still struggle with it, but more and more often I occasionally get a good transition where she uses her back.

I have taken many clinics with great instructors over the past year, and they all have different ways of addressing it, from being aggressive about shortening your reins and being really forward into the canter...to telling me not to worry about it! :confused: I have used a combination of things, including the dreaded draw reins a couple of times to show her she CAN do it, as well as lunging in side reins.

My mare is a sensitive thing who tries to please, and if she doesn't feel she can do something physically things go down hill instead of progress. So for me it been patience, which is starting to pay off as she gets stronger.

Exactly the advice I've been getting - though more to the "don't worry about it" side. He even brings his head up when cantering in side reins, though less than when ridden (which is why I fault me as well as his greenie unbalance). I don't even own a set of draw reins, and my basic philsophical outlook on them is "Not on a greenie, ever." (I did occasionally use them on my very strong, very stubborn event horse when he got into one of his snotty moods). Yup, patience, I figured as much. "I am not a pro, I am not planning futurity competition, he is not a Verden auction horse, etc. -we can take our time" (rinse/repeat).

[EqTrainer]

Sandy M and whoever else has the horse coming above the bit in the transitions...

try to think about this as a *lateral* problem and not a longitudinal problem. You need a better bend, that comes thru the horses entire body, to keep the horse on the aids thru the transition.

I tell my students to start paying close attention to what aid the horse evades in the transition.. where do they stiffen, what starts to prop and lean. If you break it down that way instead of thinking CANTER NOW and then OH SHIT IT HAPPENED AGAIN :lol: you can and will figure out where exactly it is going wrong. Then you can fix it.

But I bet it's not back to front, but side to side where you find the issue really lies. What is hard now is that these horses have learned to do this usually in the last moment before they actually canter. So now to them, that is how it is done and that is what the aid means. You will have to retrain it now.. viewing it that way, as a retrain, helps a lot for me rather than thinking it's just a baby thing. It's not, as I have retrained 15 year olds who do the same thing ;)

[Perfect Pony]

Exactly the advice I've been getting - though more to the "don't worry about it" side. He even brings his head up when cantering in side reins, though less than when ridden (which is why I fault me as well as his greenie unbalance). I don't even own a set of draw reins, and my basic philsophical outlook on them is "Not on a greenie, ever." (I did occasionally use them on my very strong, very stubborn event horse when he got into one of his snotty moods). Yup, patience, I figured as much. "I am not a pro, I am not planning futurity competition, he is not a Verden auction horse, etc. -we can take our time" (rinse/repeat).

Good to hear you are hearing the same thing! I will add that I never went near her with a set of draw reins until she was well into a 6 year old year, and I have used them 2x, and it was clear it was becoming as much a habit as it was because she was unbalanced. She is also inherently lazy.

I did try rein-aids this week, and had some almost perfect canter transitions with them. They allow me to take more of a feel of her mouth, while giving her (I think) the feeling of some give, when I ask for the transition. Unfortunately her trot work is worse with the rein-aids, but we had (literally) moments of brilliance in our canter work. I was even able to get her to stretch completely down to the ground at canter, both directions.

BTW, I have started riding almost weekly with Jill, she's been wonderful.

[bigbaytb]

>>>>
But I bet it's not back to front, but side to side where you find the issue really lies. What is hard now is that these horses have learned to do this usually in the last moment before they actually canter. So now to them, that is how it is done and that is what the aid means. You will have to retrain it now.. viewing it that way, as a retrain, helps a lot for me rather than thinking it's just a baby thing. It's not, as I have retrained 15 year olds who do the same thing ;)[/QUOTE]


eq trainer...that's it...rode my mare last friday..and when i engaged the inside leg first for the transition to canter, that's when she raises her head and rushes...so, i worked leg yield a couple steps, asked for more bend and soft. as soon as she tried to "raise and rush" i just backed down to the slower trot or walk (even backed up a couple times) finally, I was rewarded with a lovely canter depart without rushing from a trot..and a light canter (not flat) for about 5 strides, then back to the trot...didn't ask again until she forgot all the excitment of the canter and was trotting - walk- halt- trot etc nicely. then very carefully, asked again and got a nice depart..only lasted a couple strides but i didn't let it her fall out of it. we stopped for the day. a friend rode her on saturday and practiced the same thing and said she did great..

.sunday, i hill topped her since my gelding had an ugly cut on his leg..... it lovely snowy day and not too quick. our first canter..WOW..i stayed in 2 point but she didn't rush/raise head into it when i asked and we actually cantered..not flat running...light forehand canter through the woods.. i was grinning from ear to ear!...whenever she got tired..we just trotted...where she showed me a lengthened trot...i was giddy.....yeh..we didn't get it all the time, but she tried her hardest...and we just stayed to the back to the hill toppers so i could keep it slow...had a couple hard gallops ..but she was great

so..i'll just keep that judicious depart and get it right first time off, i think she connected the dots!!

[Sandy M]

BTW, I have started riding almost weekly with Jill, she's been wonderful.

Unfortunately, since I must still support dear Erik and he has been running up vet bills with his distressing thinness, I've been limited to twice a month lessons. I sure would like to make them every week, but the one thing that MIGHT have enabled that - another rider who wanted to come with me and would pay gas $$ - isn't working out reliably, so twice a month is all I can afford. She LOVES Markey-Mark and thinks he's doing fine, so if she isn't worried about those canter departs, I guess I shouldn't (but we do work on them).

[EqTrainer]

>>>>
But I bet it's not back to front, but side to side where you find the issue really lies. What is hard now is that these horses have learned to do this usually in the last moment before they actually canter. So now to them, that is how it is done and that is what the aid means. You will have to retrain it now.. viewing it that way, as a retrain, helps a lot for me rather than thinking it's just a baby thing. It's not, as I have retrained 15 year olds who do the same thing ;)


eq trainer...that's it...rode my mare last friday..and when i engaged the inside leg first for the transition to canter, that's when she raises her head and rushes...so, i worked leg yield a couple steps, asked for more bend and soft. as soon as she tried to "raise and rush" i just backed down to the slower trot or walk (even backed up a couple times) finally, I was rewarded with a lovely canter depart without rushing from a trot..and a light canter (not flat) for about 5 strides, then back to the trot...didn't ask again until she forgot all the excitment of the canter and was trotting - walk- halt- trot etc nicely. then very carefully, asked again and got a nice depart..only lasted a couple strides but i didn't let it her fall out of it. we stopped for the day. a friend rode her on saturday and practiced the same thing and said she did great..

.sunday, i hill topped her since my gelding had an ugly cut on his leg..... it lovely snowy day and not too quick. our first canter..WOW..i stayed in 2 point but she didn't rush/raise head into it when i asked and we actually cantered..not flat running...light forehand canter through the woods.. i was grinning from ear to ear!...whenever she got tired..we just trotted...where she showed me a lengthened trot...i was giddy.....yeh..we didn't get it all the time, but she tried her hardest...and we just stayed to the back to the hill toppers so i could keep it slow...had a couple hard gallops ..but she was great

so..i'll just keep that judicious depart and get it right first time off, i think she connected the dots!![/quote]


Congratulations :)

The real beauty is that you have learned now to feel what is happening a little better *in the moment* and that will stick with you. So you didn't *just* learn to do a better canter depart!

[Sandy M]

I have been doing the exercise of leg yield from quarter line to arena wall and ask for canter immediately upon reaching the wall, then into a 15 or 20 m. circle, canter around short end and across diagonal, come back to trot, then leg yield again, etc. It has helped some, but we are far from established in a decent depart. I will, however, with the lateral issue in mind, be especially picky about doing that exercise as accurately and carefully as possible. Guess I was on the right track without really knowing it. LOL

[EqTrainer]

I have been doing the exercise of leg yield from quarter line to arena wall and ask for canter immediately upon reaching the wall, then into a 15 or 20 m. circle, canter around short end and across diagonal, come back to trot, then leg yield again, etc. It has helped some, but we are far from established in a decent depart. I will, however, with the lateral issue in mind, be especially picky about doing that exercise as accurately and carefully as possible. Guess I was on the right track without really knowing it. LOL

Any exercise is always about doing it accurately and carefully. The exercise itself, without the attention to what is actually happening, is useless.

In the example given , the exercise sets you up to *rebend the horse* when you reach the wall. It directs your attention to the moment in which you rebend. If you do not allow the horse to evade the bend, then the horse is set up to give you a correct canter depart at that time.

The leg yield sets you up to have a good chance at an effective rebend only if you pay close attention to the quality of the gait and connection while the horse is LY. If you lose the quality of the gait and/or the connection during the leg yield, you should not bother trying to rebend the horse and then canter, because it's going to be a debacle and then there's one more time that the horse learns to depart into the canter incorrectly.

Figures and exercises are important because they teach us to pay attention to the details. You can bomb around and ride that same example a million times and the exercise itself will do *nothing* to improve the quality of the canter depart.

Dressage is a lot about learning to be here, now.. and not all that much about riding figures. The OP learned to be present in the moment that the evasion was taking place, so she could identify it and correct it while it was happening. That is a learning experience of which the significance should not be underestimated :)

[Sandy M]

I absolutely agree. I probably didn't express myself quite as clearly as I might have. Perhaps I should have said 'refining the exercise,' since we are not that far past the point where actually GETTING a canter when asked was a big deal. LOL Now that he fairly willingly responds to the canter aids rather than oblivously trotting along - "who me? wha...canter???," the issue is keeping him correctly on the aids and getting a more balanced depart.