water for breaking horse?

[kbbarn]

So, I am actively involved in horse rescue. We have a volunteer who at first was great, now becoming a bit weird and whatnot. He told another volunteer that he would break her horse using water. Shes asks him 'where are you going to get the water', he says he would use the canal behind the the rescue's property.

Okay - so first 'breaking a horse using water'. I had to look this concept up on the internet. I've been around horses for 30+ years, never heard of this. I agree horses should be good in and around water but never heard of it being used for staring a horse from scratch ( sorry, I don't like the word ' breaking'). So I learned from the internet that this is how Indians 'broke' horses- the concept being if horse up to its knees in water, will not be able to fuss as much with 'breaking' process.

Fine, still do not agree. Now lets talk about the canal behind the property. It is the drainage (storm drain) canal for the entire valley of 1 million plus humans. It is sort of nasty and I would not put my toe in that water. Then there is the fact that the footing underneath the water could be questionable. AND the levy that the unbroke horse would need to negotiate and problem be like 'screw you- Im not going in there!'

So, is this 'breaking by water' technique widely used? I told the guy No Way and in fact, you no longer get to touch any of the horses. Just clean and feed, thanks.

[PinkPonies]

I think someone's seen the Black Stallion one too many times :)

I think you absolutely did the right thing telling this guy "no way". I have heard some pretty weird training stuff, but never that. Maybe he just wants a softer landing when he gets bucked off??

[Curb Appeal]

I think telling him no to the breaking was certainly appropriate, but removing him from horse contact just based on this is a rather nasty way to treat a volunteer.....unless there is more to this than you are sharing.

[goodhors]

Snow breaking is also used, have heard it touted both in the Midwest and out West. Western Horseman has an article this month about Snow Colts, using young horses in deeper snow just going around the ranch. I would think this is a good experience for a young animal learning to work. Walking out, walking back, learning to bend and give to the bit, all slow easy work the horse can understand. Cows have to be checked whatever the weather.

Horse having to work in deeper going, water or snow, has more work getting his body going when he wants to be difficult. Tires faster with such resistance. I have reached a point where I don't like being hurt if I can avoid it. So I would not have a problem riding a horse in snow or water during his first few rides to prevent bucking or high spirits that could toss me off. I expect Indians of the past would think the same way, use water as a aid to tire horse while getting thru the beginning steps. If horse doesn't learn to be bad in the beginning of new things like being ridden, he won't revert to poor behaviour later in other work.

I would NOT be wanting my horse ridden in drain water, with unknown contents in it.

Riding a young or new horse in deep water, deep snow, can easily be overdone. You don't want to ride him to exhaustion. Moving thru deep going yourself, you can tire quickly, strain things. You need to keep sessions shorter than you would in a ring setting. Dry the animal thoroughly when finished. Horses get sweaty with the hard work, even in freezing cold temps of snow days.

[kbbarn]

This volunteer came to us with 'great horse knowledge'. I only met him once, briefly and that was after the CEO agreed to let him come on. In addition to the Water breaking, here is a sampling of the last few weeks:
1) Supposed to feed no earlier than 4 pm. I go to the center after work at 3:55 and did not leave until 5:15, all horses eating and almost done. He is asked the next day when he fed, he says 4:30. Not true - I and the CEO were there between 355-530. Liar
2) tells visitors that they can only come at certain times in that he is the ONLY one who works there. We have a 8 board members who come to the center through out the week to care for horses. He is not the only one. Misrepresenting the center
3) tells me that the horses have spiders in their ears. Spiders? I ask. OH yes, spiders -he says. I say - are you sure you do not mean gnats? Nope, spiders - he insists that they are spiders. We have gnats this time of year, and yes, upon inspection - gnats. That is like, horse 101.

So I have gone back and forth about if I am a b**ch about not wanting him to handle the horses and I decided that I am not. These are rescues who are be rehabilitated and have been abused, are pushy, etc. Someone who lacks proper horse knowledge is not helping. Every interaction we have with a horse is training and can be good or bad. I think he is a liability.

[kbbarn]

Snow breaking - sounds okay. I am all for soft landings.

But a canal, seriously. It is not like we have the lovely lake with geese and pine trees. We are in the out skirts of a major city so the Indian method probably did not take into account nasty canals and trucks zooming by ( yes, the other side of the canal is near a road)

[goodhors]

Does sound like a problem person, and you don't need more around with these kinds of animals.

You also need folks you can believe when they say things. He sounds like a loser all the way around, and poor choice of person to be interacting with both rescue horses and the general public you are trying to influence favorably. Hard to be a volunteer in charge, turning away free help.

[Woodland]

You know a lot of people have different means to the same ends. As long as the means are "humane" what difference does it make? Not all ways are your ways or my ways, rather they are just ways.

Breaking a horse out in water, snow, mud, etc has been done for eons and will continue whether this guy does it or not.

Any time you have a group made up of volunteers every single person in the group feels they are the most qualified, or the most experienced, or the very best at a task. Tis the nature of the beast! I think some people volunteer to get recognition and praise they can not earn in the "real" world.

Personally if someone is willing to take on the task for FREE of breaking out a horse(a bizarre term at best) at a rescue - I say "buckle on the helmet and have at it"

[Bluey]

So, I am actively involved in horse rescue. We have a volunteer who at first was great, now becoming a bit weird and whatnot. He told another volunteer that he would break her horse using water. Shes asks him 'where are you going to get the water', he says he would use the canal behind the the rescue's property.

Okay - so first 'breaking a horse using water'. I had to look this concept up on the internet. I've been around horses for 30+ years, never heard of this. I agree horses should be good in and around water but never heard of it being used for staring a horse from scratch ( sorry, I don't like the word ' breaking'). So I learned from the internet that this is how Indians 'broke' horses- the concept being if horse up to its knees in water, will not be able to fuss as much with 'breaking' process.

Fine, still do not agree. Now lets talk about the canal behind the property. It is the drainage (storm drain) canal for the entire valley of 1 million plus humans. It is sort of nasty and I would not put my toe in that water. Then there is the fact that the footing underneath the water could be questionable. AND the levy that the unbroke horse would need to negotiate and problem be like 'screw you- Im not going in there!'

So, is this 'breaking by water' technique widely used? I told the guy No Way and in fact, you no longer get to touch any of the horses. Just clean and feed, thanks.

I think he is all wet.:lol:
Sorry, could not resist that.
Yes, it is well known that some native indian tribes used to gather several well broke horses and take the young one to be ridden the first time, or one with serious bucking problems and stand them all in water up to their bellies or backs and someone would jump from one horse onto the wild one and ride him where he could not really do much.
Must have been some wild events going on there, I would guess and fun for all, except some of the horses.

Some farmers would break horses to harness by tying them with an older horse and having them start thru a plowed, heavy going field, where they could not run away.

When horses were started here in the West, many had a deep sand creek they would mount a bronc buster on an untouched horse, haze it and run it up thru there their first rides until too tired to buck any more.

To start horses, people have always tried to find an advantage to keep a horse in one place or from acting up, from round pens, thru heavy going like deep sand, water, snow, whatever, forgetting that you can do the same just by explaining to a horse what you want, without fireworks.

We have to admit that preparing the situation to your advantage does sometimes make sense.;)

[WaningMoon]

I think water and snow is still used quite often by some ppl to train a horse. I also think it is mostly used on horses who have not had any previous training whatsoever. Horses who have not been trained to obey cues, not handled in any way. HOrses in my experience who have been learning since birth do not need to be started in water or snow. I ahve never had one act up or rear or do anything except take the new concept of a rider as just another step in their training. But horses who have had minimal contact with ppl and no training are often much better off started in water. Better for the horse and less dangerous for the rider. I have seen it to be very effective, just not my preferred way, I'd rather have training start when born and not just oh, its now time to be ridden.

[Alagirl]

Well, I got a beautiful Passage out of my coming 3 year old TB gelding one year in belly deep snow...and no, it was not my choice to be in the snowdrift....if you have a lot of open water, it might not be a good thing, I have read about that in magazines, they do it in the islands (don't ask me which, south pacific if memory serves me right) beats falling into the jungle. ;)

The canal behind the house I'd have to say no.

[Altamont Sport Horses]

This volunteer came to us with 'great horse knowledge'. I only met him once, briefly and that was after the CEO agreed to let him come on. In addition to the Water breaking, here is a sampling of the last few weeks:
1) Supposed to feed no earlier than 4 pm. I go to the center after work at 3:55 and did not leave until 5:15, all horses eating and almost done. He is asked the next day when he fed, he says 4:30. Not true - I and the CEO were there between 355-530. Liar
2) tells visitors that they can only come at certain times in that he is the ONLY one who works there. We have a 8 board members who come to the center through out the week to care for horses. He is not the only one. Misrepresenting the center
3) tells me that the horses have spiders in their ears. Spiders? I ask. OH yes, spiders -he says. I say - are you sure you do not mean gnats? Nope, spiders - he insists that they are spiders. We have gnats this time of year, and yes, upon inspection - gnats. That is like, horse 101.

So I have gone back and forth about if I am a b**ch about not wanting him to handle the horses and I decided that I am not. These are rescues who are be rehabilitated and have been abused, are pushy, etc. Someone who lacks proper horse knowledge is not helping. Every interaction we have with a horse is training and can be good or bad. I think he is a liability.

Perhaps he comes from a different horse culture or simply a different culture altogether. I have heard of using water to start horses under saddle and am not at all alarmed to hear his suggestion....until...he mentioned the canal. Not a good choice. Perhaps he feels it is so effective that he is very motivated to do it and was willing to try the canal without thinking it through. I would think you could specify that he is not to train any horses and continue to benefit from his volunteerism.

1. OK, so if they were still eating at 3:55 then he probably fed them just a bit before 4:00. He is not supposed to but from the details in your post it sounds like you didn't actually talk to him about it and tell him you knew that he did not feed at 4:30. If so he did not have the opportunity to come clean with why he fed early. Sometimes things come up and you have to adjust the schedule a bit. Maybe he had an unexpected schedule conflict come up and it was easier to say he fed at 4:30 instead of talking about some personal problem of his, possibly one that causes him embarassment. At least he did feed them. Do they have a lunchtime grain feeding at 12 p.m. that makes the no feeding before 4:00 requirement necessary (ie. minimum of 4 hours between feedings)? If so, did he do the lunchtime feeding? If so and he knew he had to leave a little early he might have adjusted an earlier feeding to give enough time in between. You wouldn't know that without discussing it with him openly.

2. Do the board members come to the Center at the same time/schedule every single week? Are they very consistent and reliable in their schedule? If not, then I could see why he might say something like that, not to misrepresent the Center, but to prevent people from milling around when nobody is there. It sounds like he might be there more hours a week than the Board members but can't say for sure. Best way around this is to publish a schedule which indicates when visitors can be there on the property. Then there is less opportunity for misunderstanding on his part, the Center's part and the visitors' part.

3. Was he talking about ticks? Just wondering if this is a language thing or something especially in light of his inclination to start horses in a body of water. And although it doesn't happen often I have seen a tiny spider or two crawling in the long ear hairs of my horses in the barn...probably came from the hay. And I have grabbed more than a couple of unattached ticks out of the ears of my horses. Is English his first language?

At least he seems enthusiastic and appears to take his responsibility seriously. Having been a director for a non-profit organization using a large base of volunteers I know that good volunteers (including Board members) that are reliable and stick with it are even harder to find than good employees and they are *really* hard to find as it is. Both volunteers and employees need support and nuturing to reach their full potentials. Everyone will make mistakes regardless of whether or not they get paid.

I wouldn't throw him to the curb too quickly or risk offending him unless he really does something risky or damaging. You indicated that he was great at first so it seems worth it to approach this carefully. I would also recommend talking with him in a non-confrontational way about what happened to see why he fed early (or told visitors that they could only come when he was there) before you get too upset jumping to conclusions. It might be ridiculous stuff with no excuse but there could also be a very good explanation for it. I would keep the lines of communication open. His explanations may lead to the identification of some unidentified process or policy problems that need to be addressed but which nobody noticed previously. Improvement is a continual process and takes input. And if you discuss the feeding issue with him and explain why the 4:00 requirement is so important (if it hasn't already been done) you might suggest that if something important comes up and he really can't manage to feed at 4 or later that he should call you or another volunteer to make arrangements so that the horses will be fed on the appropriate schedule. This would show him that it is very important for whatever reason and that he has options if he does get in a pinch. I would do this for an employee and for a volunteer.

[kbbarn]

He was told when he started what pm feeding time was and he was doing good at first then he started at 2 pm. We talked to him about that and said call any of us, we can come after work and feed for you. He said yes, he would do that. But he still would keep feeding early ( I stop by often after work around 4, horses are almost done and some are done with hay), so when he said 'oh he feeds at 4:30' when we were there from 4-5, we know that is just not true and he acts like he understands time.

Yes to different culture.

It is hard with volunteers although he is getting something out of this - they let him adopt a horse and board it with us for free along with free farrier and vet care. Thus I expect a bit more rule following. They also have provided him with additional perks - surgery on his dog ( we have a dog cat center too), and some help from our lawyer. Everyone else is volunteering without perks and does a better job.


My new plan is to take my horse to the center with me once a week to show all volunteers how to work with a horse. It is hard working with 20+ rescue horses, all who have their own issues. Thought it would help if everyone could work with my very well trained guy who loves the humans and responds easily so they could get the 'feel' of what they are trying to accomplish. We will see how that goes.

[092556]

When I was a kid there was a guy that trained ponies in Va, way back in the mid 60's, I think his name was Mr. Lee?? He ended up getting my pony (gray welsh x arab cross filly) when she was 3, my dad got shipped to Germany so all animals had to go. He had a small round pen full of corn husk, about 2 - 3' deep that he would put the ponies in and have the kids hop on them. The ponies couldn't buck hard and if the kids came off it was a soft landing. I think it was a great idea, his ponies seemed to be well broke.

While we were in Germany we were sent pictures by the breeder of my pony, Mr. Talley of my pony winning, she won Devon one year in the late 60's. As a 12 year old hearing about someone else showing my pony that I had got at 6 months old and had to get rid off just when she got to the age to ride was real hard. I don't remember her show name but I think her 1/2 arab reg. name was Emmy Win, that's what we called her?

[BEARCAT]

Don't you guys remember an old episode of "Little House on the Prairie" where the little indian boy "finds" a horse and decides that if he can tame him it will be his? He takes the horse to a pond and rides him in the water so that the horse has a hard time struggling and submits to him and then ride off - bareback of course - like a good ol' cow pony?

That said, a canal with who knows what in the water (old tires? refrigerators?) dumped in there and maybe concrete footing sounds like a really scary place!

[riverbell93]

Don't you guys remember an old episode of "Little House on the Prairie" where the little indian boy "finds" a horse and decides that if he can tame him it will be his? He takes the horse to a pond and rides him in the water so that the horse has a hard time struggling and submits to him and then ride off - bareback of course - like a good ol' cow pony?

Thank god, it wasn't just my imagination. I remember that episode! I'd think another problem with water breaking is that horse legs, being thin and hard, move more rapidly through the water than human legs, and if you go off the horse's back during the process, it's harder to get a safe distance from an excited horse who's probably moving quite rapidly for solid ground. And, of course, you could drown.

[findeight]

So, is this 'breaking by water' technique widely used?

Not when you have more then 5 minutes to break one before the cavalry comes over the hill:lol:.

Nah, it is an old thechnique-along with deep sand. So is having somebody twist an ear while you slap a saddle on them or tying up a leg then pulling the slip knot loose after you get on. Today we have time and train them instead of immobilizing them so we can hop on and run from the cavalry or go chase cows.

Wouldn't imagine too many still depend on this...although I will admit to liking soft sand and summer weather for starting colts. But I did not learn that from the internet.

[WalkInTheWoods]

Supposed to feed no earlier than 4 pm. I go to the center after work at 3:55 and did not leave until 5:15, all horses eating and almost done. He is asked the next day when he fed, he says 4:30. Not true - I and the CEO were there between 355-530. Liar......
He was told when he started what pm feeding time was and he was doing good at first then he started at 2 pm. We talked to him about that and said call any of us, we can come after work and feed for you. He said yes, he would do that. But he still would keep feeding early ( I stop by often after work around 4, horses are almost done and some are done with hay), so when he said 'oh he feeds at 4:30' when we were there from 4-5, we know that is just not true and he acts like he understands time........
Either he cant tell time or he is just a liar.
It is hard with volunteers although he is getting something out of this - they let him adopt a horse and board it with us for free along with free farrier and vet care. Thus I expect a bit more rule following. They also have provided him with additional perks - surgery on his dog ( we have a dog cat center too), and some help from our lawyer. Everyone else is volunteering without perks and does a better job.
Lots of perks for someone who cant or wont tell time and lies about it. I find that liars are also likely to be thiefs. It is complicated now that he has a horse but i would not wanting him working in my barn. What if he is asked to leave ? Will he be able to provide for his 'rescued' horse ?

[goeslikestink]

Snow breaking is also used, have heard it touted both in the Midwest and out West. Western Horseman has an article this month about Snow Colts, using young horses in deeper snow just going around the ranch. I would think this is a good experience for a young animal learning to work. Walking out, walking back, learning to bend and give to the bit, all slow easy work the horse can understand. Cows have to be checked whatever the weather.

Horse having to work in deeper going, water or snow, has more work getting his body going when he wants to be difficult. Tires faster with such resistance. I have reached a point where I don't like being hurt if I can avoid it. So I would not have a problem riding a horse in snow or water during his first few rides to prevent bucking or high spirits that could toss me off. I expect Indians of the past would think the same way, use water as a aid to tire horse while getting thru the beginning steps. If horse doesn't learn to be bad in the beginning of new things like being ridden, he won't revert to poor behaviour later in other work.

I would NOT be wanting my horse ridden in drain water, with unknown contents in it.

Riding a young or new horse in deep water, deep snow, can easily be overdone. You don't want to ride him to exhaustion. Moving thru deep going yourself, you can tire quickly, strain things. You need to keep sessions shorter than you would in a ring setting. Dry the animal thoroughly when finished. Horses get sweaty with the hard work, even in freezing cold temps of snow days.

agree
also to much work in a sandy area has the same effect as snow hence why most have sandy areana becuase the time spent in one should be less than one would spend out side one, so thats why when brekaing young horses in another reason to keep the training short inst just so that one can become even on both sides or so the horse learns in short periods of what expected of him but also to build up the mussles and tissues in his legs slowly

[gabz]

If he's from a different culture, I will also assume English is not his primary language. If so, then perhaps you could learn some of his language and also employ some visual aids.

Perhaps "gnat" and 'spider' do not directly translate. Find some photos of each and teach him the english words.

A barn where I boarded hired Mexican workers. I found a book for Spanish/English specifically geared for horse trainers and bought it for the owner. It was a HUGE help to the barn owner since while some of the employees understood spoken English - they did NOT read or write English. So she was able to prepare signs in both Eng & Spanish for them.

So far as water training ... taking a horse into the ocean or a pond has been used for centuries. Not all cultures have TV, DVDs, clinics, and round pens or other fencing solutions. I believe the island cultures along the Eastern seaboard of the US may use this type of training - including areas of South America. With that said... absolutely NOT to use the canals such as you describe. If you ever watch rescue shows on TV you will see how many people get themselves in trouble in these canals - not realizing the dangers - let alone putting a horse in that kind of situation.

Apparently, this volunteer does not have much experience with modern, US training methods. Perhaps some videos, and as you suggested, hands on training, will help him to learn.

Hopefully, he is not a liar. Hopefully, he cannot tell time and does not know what "4:30" on a clock looks like. Perhaps what he said to visitors was his interpretation of the rescue's rules. He was perhaps the only one working THAT DAY but it came out differently.

Good Luck. Operating a rescue is not an easy task... working with the horses is probably far easier than working with people for many horsepeople. ;)

[sublimequine]

To the folks saying what he's suggesting isn't bad, that using water is not a bad technique.. I think the OP doesn't have an issue with using water. I think she has an issue with him using disgusting nasty drainage water where you have no clue what the footing is like. That's asking for trouble if you ask me! :eek:

I've got no problem with someone riding a horse in water for resistance. I wouldn't do it personally because I'm not a great swimmer, but if it's in a safe environment (NOT a drainage canal!), sounds okay to me. :lol:

[kbbarn]

yes, the horses are much easier! Give me the scared or mean or abused horse any day! I also have a Parelli volunteer ( before I get flammed - please understand that I incorporate many training methods and I myself have passed off some parelli levels, have ridden with walter zettl, etc) who has been very helpful but her personality is, how shall we say - strong and sort of 'in your face'. Now, throw in the very caring and sensitive non-horse board member and maybe you have the visual: angry lady tell me 'that lady is whipping that horse!!!' So have had to ask volunteer to maybe tone it down a few notches when people, who do understand what she is doing, are watching. It has been an experience. I love it though. My husband thinks I am nuts. I have 5 of my own to worry about now I have added 20+ more.

I do worry when I do not visit the center on some days. I want their training to be consistent so I fear that something will happen that will set them back. I found ropes detached from halters and wondered what that was all about. Then one day learned that the volunteer (from the original post )was not using the halter but rather only rope looped around the neck. That horse got free when I was out fixing fences. I hear yelling, people running, horse running, I got to catch him. He was running from the volunteers, came flying over to where I was. The volunteer guy comes running up with rope only. I told him to go get me a halter + rope. Horse just hung out by me until I could lead him back.

so yes, there are worries but I keep telling myself - it will all be okay

[Altamont Sport Horses]

Gabz - I never thought about there being a Spanish/English book geared towards horse people. I'm definitely interested. Is this the one? http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-English-Spanish-Dictionary-Dictionario-Equitadores/dp/1581501463/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1227666216&sr=1-1

[Altamont Sport Horses]

To the folks saying what he's suggesting isn't bad, that using water is not a bad technique.. I think the OP doesn't have an issue with using water. I think she has an issue with him using disgusting nasty drainage water where you have no clue what the footing is like. That's asking for trouble if you ask me! :eek:

I've got no problem with someone riding a horse in water for resistance. I wouldn't do it personally because I'm not a great swimmer, but if it's in a safe environment (NOT a drainage canal!), sounds okay to me. :lol:

Nobody has said that exactly what he is suggesting ISN'T bad. They did say they have heard of using water and I think most people have said that they think a canal is inappropriate. Nobody is suggesting it is ok to do this in a canal. The OP said she had never heard of using water and that is why people are talking about water not being totally bizarre. A canal, yes, is definitely not good.

[snkstacres]

hmmm volunteers are hard to come by for sure so I would try to straighten this out I think.

I have done and would again, do snow training. Hey, you can also do sand training and water training. I had a horse here, so bad for rearing that we only rode him in the pond until we got him over that. In fact, it took months of groundwork before we had the nerve to take him into the pond. It was 50 yards away LOL and we couldnt get there safely. ( and incidentally, today he is trail horse extrodinaire, but we got lucky)

Clearly kbbarn, each and every horse is different, especially in rescue. Better than half of my horses in this rescue dont well tolerate a halter. There faces are all scarred up, they had grown into flesh on a lot of them. They fear entrapment. I have only a couple of young ones who we started with halters who are really good about them as well as a couple of show horses. I handle every other horse here with a rope around its neck. If a horse needs to get away that badly, I want it to without hurting itself because I cant win with 1200 lbs determined to leave. I have not had a horse leave me yet but..........my farrier has said, this is the only place in the entire world where he would ever allow a customer to just place a rope over the neck of a horse and him still do his work. I have shown him where a halter here is in fact a more dangerous operation. For vetting, yes, its a halter, albeit leather only.

This is tough, in rescue, each and every horse is so different and I find nothing applies to two different horses. Each and every one separately. Maybe he is not the trainer for your operation or needs a different job altogether but..........................I dont see him as a waste since clearly he has horse experience to a degree at least. I do agree that a canal is not a place to do water training but...........................given the issues I have seen with the greater percentage of my rescues, I'll take the water please. Its a lot easier to deal with a horse who has had nothing done with it, than it is to try and repair one who has had the wrong things done with it. Mine tend to fall into the latter category.

[tkhawk]

I don't know about the water personally-but only read about it that the Indians (Native Americans) used it to train. Would make sense if they are getting a horse off the range-the horse has a little less motion and you won't hit solid ground on falling. But was always curious as to how they keep the horse in the water. Unless you get them in the middle of a great big lake-any horse could probably be out in a few seconds?

But maybe the guy just doesn't know and is saying things because of a misunderstanding? You did mention he is from another culture. Plus a volunteer-so maybe if you give him time, he may come along? Some people are just oddballs and not dangerous-but very nice of you to volunteer your time to help these twenty horses out...

[sanctuary]

Hm, can say I've heard of it before, but it does make sense! No, I wouldn't do it in the canal you described, but out in a sand bottom lake or something of the sort, sure. In fact, I had a gelding that was great for everything while being introduced to the saddle and had all the ground work down, but ask him to move with the saddle on and his mind just exploded (and so did his body!). He never did outgrow it either, he was sold and his new owner tried NH and a cowboy, and all sorts of shit and he just never gave it up. I would've considered the water method for him!

[Beverley]

I help with some oversight on managing canals- most are irrigation delivery, some are storm drainage. I don't know where you are located, but the typical canal I deal with is not something a horse can safely get into or out of- and if it's full, a horse will NOT be able to get out. We've had issues over the years with deer that fall in and drown, fairly often. A few years ago, a man drowned when he went in after his labrador retriever, which had taken the plunge and...couldn't get out. As it transpired, the dog managed to save itself but his owner didn't make it.

I could give more gory details, but the upshot is- don't mess with canals. One other teensy detail- IF a horse could get in and out safely, is that such activity is not something for which canals are designed- and if you think it's yucky having that water in the canal, it would be way yuckier to have that stuff leaking out of the canal because of, say, a hole in the lining leading to a bigger seepage problem.

Personally, while I enjoy swimming with horses, I wouldn't use the water technique to start one. It could be a plan if one has a spoiled horse with specific issues such as bucking (assuming the bucking is not caused by some factor such as ill fitting tack). But as I think about it, my preferred plan for a bucker is to get out in the wide open spaces, apply full throttle to pull out of the buck, and gallop a very long way. Message to horse, if you buck, you'll be working hard afterwards.

[Hazelnut]

This volunteer came to us with 'great horse knowledge'. I only met him once, briefly and that was after the CEO agreed to let him come on. In addition to the Water breaking, here is a sampling of the last few weeks:
1) Supposed to feed no earlier than 4 pm. I go to the center after work at 3:55 and did not leave until 5:15, all horses eating and almost done. He is asked the next day when he fed, he says 4:30. Not true - I and the CEO were there between 355-530. Liar
2) tells visitors that they can only come at certain times in that he is the ONLY one who works there. We have a 8 board members who come to the center through out the week to care for horses. He is not the only one. Misrepresenting the center
3) tells me that the horses have spiders in their ears. Spiders? I ask. OH yes, spiders -he says. I say - are you sure you do not mean gnats? Nope, spiders - he insists that they are spiders. We have gnats this time of year, and yes, upon inspection - gnats. That is like, horse 101.

So I have gone back and forth about if I am a b**ch about not wanting him to handle the horses and I decided that I am not. These are rescues who are be rehabilitated and have been abused, are pushy, etc. Someone who lacks proper horse knowledge is not helping. Every interaction we have with a horse is training and can be good or bad. I think he is a liability.

These are small red flags. If a volunteer cannot fit comfortably into the structure and philosophy of an organization then it is probably not a good fit. You are not a "B". You are doing your job.

If the volunteer is trainable and listens to constructive crtisism, it would be wise to have someone else on site when this volunteer is working for the organization until you feel he is up to your standard.

If he does not demonstrate his ability to meet your standards -then let him know his services are no longer needed.

[Bluey]

---"I don't know about the water personally-but only read about it that the Indians (Native Americans) used it to train. Would make sense if they are getting a horse off the range-the horse has a little less motion and you won't hit solid ground on falling. But was always curious as to how they keep the horse in the water. Unless you get them in the middle of a great big lake-any horse could probably be out in a few seconds?"---


My understanding is that using water to start horses was done as a group, with broke horses surrounding the one to be started.
The horse starter rode double and jumped on the horse to be started and rode him around in the deep water, with the other horses right there to keep the new horse feeling safe.
I am sure at times someone had to start a horse alone, but the technique as the native indians used it was a collective effort, so someone was there to help if things didn't go well.

[RU2U]

I think water starting is a good idea.

Around here I heard of amish doing plough field starting, not so good idea. Heard its so horse doesn't get traction, can not go far, can't throw too much of a fit. Don't like the idea. If you start a horse correctly it shouldn't be a problem no matter what the footing.

[Alexie]

not my cup of tea, blimey my horses get the heebee jeebies at the splashes, it'd be asking for trouble :D

[gabz]

Gabz - I never thought about there being a Spanish/English book geared towards horse people. I'm definitely interested. Is this the one? http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-English-Spanish-Dictionary-Dictionario-Equitadores/dp/1581501463/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1227666216&sr=1-1


That appears to be a new (and ILLUSTRATED) version. The one I bought was from Breakthrough Publications. I used to order many horse books from them that were not available elsewhere.

When I googled on Breakthrough English Spanish, the yellow-covered edition appeared... authored by the same person - Maria Belknap, so that's why I think the one you found is an updated version.

Funny, I was reading the reviews and someone was talking about Argentinian Spanish. I guess they do not realize there are dialects. As in, when I took years and years of Spanish is school, we were taught "Como se llama" as "what is your name". But when I dated a Tex-Mex while living in Texas... his family all used "?Su nombre?" "book / Spain-spanish" versus Mexican everyday language. :winkgrin:

Oh my. I just remembered a situation. My elder daughter, who took MANY years of Spanish in HS, babysat the boarding barn for a week with the Mexican workers. She had to ask them to do something extra and somehow, she ended up using "horse's bedroom" because she didn't know how to say "stall". (that's what prompted me to buy the book). At least they all laughed about it. The workers understood and she realized her error.

[gabz]

I think water starting is a good idea.

Around here I heard of amish doing plough field starting, not so good idea. Heard its so horse doesn't get traction, can not go far, can't throw too much of a fit. Don't like the idea. If you start a horse correctly it shouldn't be a problem no matter what the footing.

I've heard of them teaming a younger horse to a pair of working horses for harness work. Makes a TON of sense to me.

I don't get the "start a horse correctly" that people use. If I learned to eat using European table manners, and I use those manners to teach my US born children, am I "starting them incorrectly"? No. It's DIFFERENT. NOT INCORRECT.

Come on ... what is "Correctly" ?? A round pen is a only a recent training device. Arenas are not available in everyone's backyard. You use what you have. I for one wouldn't want to be dinking around with a 1500 pound 3 year old draft horse that towers over me.

[gabz]

yes, the horses are much easier! Give me the scared or mean or abused horse any day! I also have a Parelli volunteer ( before I get flammed - please understand that I incorporate many training methods and I myself have passed off some parelli levels, have ridden with walter zettl, etc) who has been very helpful but her personality is, how shall we say - strong and sort of 'in your face'. Now, throw in the very caring and sensitive non-horse board member and maybe you have the visual: angry lady tell me 'that lady is whipping that horse!!!' So have had to ask volunteer to maybe tone it down a few notches when people, who do understand what she is doing, are watching. It has been an experience. I love it though. My husband thinks I am nuts. I have 5 of my own to worry about now I have added 20+ more.

I do worry when I do not visit the center on some days. I want their training to be consistent so I fear that something will happen that will set them back. I found ropes detached from halters and wondered what that was all about. Then one day learned that the volunteer (from the original post )was not using the halter but rather only rope looped around the neck. That horse got free when I was out fixing fences. I hear yelling, people running, horse running, I got to catch him. He was running from the volunteers, came flying over to where I was. The volunteer guy comes running up with rope only. I told him to go get me a halter + rope. Horse just hung out by me until I could lead him back.

so yes, there are worries but I keep telling myself - it will all be okay

Well you do have a pickle of sorts. YOu don't want to drive the volunteers away, but there has to be consistency. If it were me (and you are not), I would ensure that each and every volunteer had training and weekly updates. I would use multiple methods of training the volunteers, because I know that some folks learn better through hearing and others through seeing. Some require both. And I'm always reminded of the fact that children need to hear something 500 times before they will remember it. Seems that is the same way with horses, yes? Repetition is the key. One thing is though... horses do not require a "why". If they do, simply apply the... "Cuz' I'm the trainer - that's why". :yes: (or the bat)

I would establish a system of MUST DO NO MATTER WHAT!!! rules. For safety of people: visitors, volunteers, etc. for safety of horses (not just the HANDLED horse, but any others the horse could interfere with!!!); and because THAT'S HOW IT IS!! (Can you tell I was a Sergeant in the Army?) If the volunteers are found guilty of violation, then they are no longer allowed to perform that operation. If they can't halter and lead a horse following the rules, then they are only allowed to clean empty stalls. If they cannot feed the horses the requied amount, at the required times, then they are no longer allowed to feed. 3x you're OUT.

.... case in point. If I'm the Sergeant and I see a missile coming at my squad, I will yell "heads down". I do NOT expect any one in the squad to raise their head up to ask "Why?" Because of course, we all know why... BLAM!

[gabz]

Which brings me to one of the rules. "If a horse starts running away - DO NOT CHASE IT". PERIOD. (all you're doing is driving it farther away)

VOICE LOUDLY so that all can hear... "LOOSE HORSE" repeat as necessary.

Close all gates that lead off the property.

Any horse that is being lead and is under control, should be placed in the nearest stall or enclosed pasture to avoid it AND THE HANDLER from being run-down by the loose horse.

Relax and allow the horse to stop running. It will TYPICALLY (but NOT always) either drop it's head to graze or seek out other horses.