Feeding Copper and Immune boosters

[stuge]

I have an 18 year old gelding that has lost quite a bit of weight this summer. In addition, this year he has had a constant issue with skin issues. In the spring he got a horrible case of ringworm. I have owned horses for over 20 years and have NEVER even seen a case of ringworm. It clearly isn't as contagious as I thought, because I didn't realize what it was for a few days and I shared brushes with my other horse and I didn't use gloves or anything while cleaning the sores. Initially I just thought it was a couple of scrapes hen a few days later so I was just treating them with a vasoline based wound treatment. Anyway, long story short those cleared up a month or so later he had another breakout and I have had a constant battle with other fungus/bacteria issues on his legs but and back.

So throughout all this he loses weight all summer. We switch to TC Senior and he appears to have put on some weight but not as much as I would like so vet runs a full blood panel. he has been confirmed Cushings for a few years and even his cushings levels (ACTH) were normal as well as his insulin and glucose. He is in good spirits and has perked up since the weather got cooler. I got more aggressive with worming back in the summer although he has always been on an 8-10 week worming schedule. I put him on a six week worming schedule and he has been powerpaked. Oh and his teeth has been fine.

The only level that was low in his blood panel was his iron. vet recommended redcell or that type supplement but i seemed to remember that redcell was useless so I came to do some research and came across the potential copper deficiency issue.

Testing my hay is not feasible, supply changes too often. He is getting 10 lbs of TC Senior and the copper analysis is 55ppm (I would assume that would mean at the recommended feeding rate of 6 lbs per day). I live in the SE, clay soil if that makes a difference.

I thought some of that background might be relevent. Anyway, I know I should not feed red cell but here are some of my questions:
1. Should I feed a copper supplement?
2. If so, what should I look for?
3. Is it dangerous to just feed a copper supplement?
4. Should I feed a supplement like APF or another immune system booster? It is my understanding that cushings can cause their immune systems to not work as well and that could be why he is having the skin issues.

5. If so, is there any others that work as well? APF is pretty expensive.

Thanks!

[JB]

You're in the SE, like me, clay soil, I just about guarantee a Cu deficiency. Iron is NOT something we lack :no:

55ppm is just that - 55 mg/kg, or 55mg/2.2lb. The 10lb of TC gives you 250mg. That does not mean he's able to use all that. The hay gives you some too - isn't going to be 100% bioavailable either.

I feed an additional 80-100mg Cu a day to my big black WB gelding. In doing so, I reduce his fading and, to your situation, eliminate his skin crud issues. I use Uckele's Poly Copper which is quite cheap. Unless you feed the full scoop (275mg?) for long periods of time, you aren't going to OD on Cu. In your case, I might be inclined to do a full scoop for a couple of weeks, re-check the Fe, then back the Cu off to 1/4-1/2 scoop.

JMO :)

[stuge]

Thanks for the fast reply. So feed the copper then retest the iron or should I just go by clinical signs? I don't have the numbers but she said he was barely below the normal range.

Did you see a dramatic improvement in the skin crud after supplementing? Do you think a copper deficiency would cause him to lose weight?

[HandsomeBayFarm]

Is (was) the skin crud just ringworm? My guy lost a ton of weight due to neck-thread worms. He had the worst skin, itchies. Was on a ton of feed (TC Senior) and did not gain. Treated for ntws, changed his diet which included adding copper (he is 28) and now he is on a diet!

[murphyluv]

Wow, I love this board, you can learn so much!
Anyways, I don't know about copper and iron, but I have heard VERY good things about APF. That will definitely help his immune system. Although part of me wonders that if everything is balanced- the copper, iron, etc, if that will help immune system???

[stuge]

No he has had different issues. It started with ringworm in the late winter/early spring. He hasn't had ringworm since those two outbreaks. Since then he has just had the crud on his legs, back, and hindquarters. It might be rainrot, not sure.

What does the threadworms look like. He isn't particularly itchy, never has been. Sometimes the fungus/crud stuff gets itch but they he is fine once it goes, it just seems to move somewhere else!

[JB]

Thanks for the fast reply. So feed the copper then retest the iron or should I just go by clinical signs? I don't have the numbers but she said he was barely below the normal range.
Keep in mind that just barely below normal might be his normal. Yes, feed the Cu for a bit, then retest.

Additionally, for reasons I still cannot fathom, vets make the mistake of drawing blood to check for iron from a horse who hasn't been working. Extra RBCs are stored in the spleen, ready for use when needed (ie when working). If the hose has been lounging around all day, the extra RBCs aren't in circulation, and very often this will cause the horse to test "anemic". Exercise him for 20 minutes or so and check again. You might want to do that before adding the Cu. But, given the skin crud, even if the Fe checks normal after the post-exercise blood draw, I'd still want to give some extra Cu.

Did you see a dramatic improvement in the skin crud after supplementing?
Yes, as in, scratches went away and stayed away. The scratches had been a yearly battle. Gone.

Do you think a copper deficiency would cause him to lose weight?
Mineral deficiencies in general can cause a horse to lose weight, and to not gain weight.

What does the threadworms look like. He isn't particularly itchy, never has been. Sometimes the fungus/crud stuff gets itch but they he is fine once it goes, it just seems to move somewhere else!
Look for the massive thread "how to kill adult onchocerca" ;)

[pintopiaffe]

I have used both the PolyCopper and also a pelleted supplement called Optamax by MVP. The Optamax is more palatable, and has other goodies for the horse with overactive immune responses. (think about it--a horse with creeping crud, or hives etc, isn't SUB immune... he's OVER immune... his system is kicking into high gear... )

Both helped my chronic scratches guy. Removing alfalfa helped more, and things finally cleared up entirely when I removed soy too. <shrugs> I definitely would START with a copper supp, and JB's advice is about the best. But if the skin stuff is chronic, consider getting rid of alfalfa. (TC Sr is alfalfa based... TC Low Starch is alfalfa free) If it's going to make a difference, it will make a difference right away. 48 hrs to some lessening of symptoms and then things clear up completely in a few weeks. If it doesn't help--well, then you go back to 'falf. ;)

MSM and Ester C both seem to help allergy-ish, skin-ish stuff quite a lot too. :yes:

[deltawave]

Additionally, for reasons I still cannot fathom, vets make the mistake of drawing blood to check for iron from a horse who hasn't been working. Extra RBCs are stored in the spleen, ready for use when needed (ie when working). If the hose has been lounging around all day, the extra RBCs aren't in circulation, and very often this will cause the horse to test "anemic".A hematocrit/hemoglobin/RBC count may very well be affected by exertion or splenic sequestration, but iron stores and iron studies ARE NOT. Checking iron levels is not the same thing as checking hematocrit/RBC count, not at all. An animal can be PROFOUNDLY anemic and have plenty of stored iron. And vice versa.

[JB]

A hematocrit/hemoglobin/RBC count may very well be affected by exertion or splenic sequestration, but iron stores and iron studies ARE NOT. Checking iron levels is not the same thing as checking hematocrit/RBC count, not at all. An animal can be PROFOUNDLY anemic and have plenty of stored iron. And vice versa.

You're right, I made the assumption that "low iron" really meant anemic, and that was not necessarily the right leap to make :)

[stuge]

OK, so now I am really confused. So skin stuff could be from an OVERactive immune system? Cushings usually weakens the immune system so it is contradictory to this particular horse. The cushings is controlled though with pergolide. Also, I am not seeing the skin stuff as an "allergic" type reaction but as bacteria/fungus that for whatever reason his body can't fight off naturally.

Also, TC Senior is beet pulp based but he does get supplemented with alfalfa. All these skin issues started BEFORE we started supplementing with alfalfa though. He was on Progressive earlier in the year then we went to TC. so up until Julyish he did not have alfalfa. I can easily not give it to him though.

Edited to add: oops jsut realized that the senior is both alfalfa and beetpulp based.

[grayarabpony]

Allergies are from an overactive immune system.

Getting ringworm and rainrot all of the time (fungal and bacterial infections) is a sign of a depressed immune system.

[deltawave]

Let's be really careful not to oversimplify something as complicated and vexatious as the immune system!! It's not something that follows any sort of "Goldilocks Principle" (Too Hot, Too Cold, or Just Right) and I'd be oh so reluctant to make these kinds of sweeping generalizations. Some things just can't be simplified that way.

[JB]

I don't look at it as under- or over-active, I look at it as "it isn't functioning properly". To that end, I feed to get it functioning properly :)

[HandsomeBayFarm]

Just had the vet out today to look at the itchy belly on my treated NTW ol' guy. His hiney and neck itches went away but the belly remained. I did everything to try to ease the itch for him.

So I had her look - asked for a skin scrap - which we didnt do. But she did take his temp - it was 96. This was at 11am in 60o sunny weather.

She says his immune system is not allowing him to heal his itchies. I am to stop the alfalfa - as it is a suppressent (?) and we are adding iodine to his AM feeding. I am to record 2 weeks worth of daily temps taken in AM. If the iodine doesnt elevate the temp, then we move onto thyroid.

Has anyone else gone this route?

OP: have you monitored your horses temp to see if it is normal? Maybe this all relates to thyroid....?

[deltawave]

That makes no sense whatsoever to me. But, hey, I'm not a vet, so . . . carry on and good luck with that. :)

I feed to make everything function properly, too, but I don't delude myself that "this" or "that" ingredient is doing anything more than allowing the body to do what comes naturally.

[grayarabpony]

HandsomeBayFarm, it sounds like your vet believes your horse is allergic or has a sensitivity to alfalfa. In which case your horse's immune system is reacting to the alfalfa, rather than the alfalfa depressing his immune system.

[RAyers]

Allergies are from an overactive immune system.

Concernign this statement: No, no and no. Did I mention no?

Allergies are NOT from an overactive immune system. It is from a component (either compliment system or a bit more down stream in the B-cell/T-cell range) of the immune system that has become sensitized to specific antigens. It has nothing to do with being over active. You can have a perfectly functioning immune/inflammaotry system and still have allergies.

Reed

[grayarabpony]

Reed then explain to me why a person with active allergies has a high type E antibody count.

A blurp from Wikipedia: "Allergy is a disorder of the immune system often also referred to as atopy. Allergic reactions occur to environmental substances known as allergens; these reactions are acquired, predictable and rapid. Strictly, allergy is one of four forms of hypersensitivity and is called type I (or immediate) hypersensitivity. It is characterized by excessive activation of certain white blood cells called mast cells and basophils by a type of antibody known as IgE, resulting in an extreme inflammatory response. Common allergic reactions include eczema, hives, hay fever, asthma, food allergies, and reactions to the venom of stinging insects such as wasps and bees.[1]"

PS I have allergies, so I'm kind of familiar with them.

[deltawave]

The point is that "allergy" is ONE ISOLATED ASPECT of the function of the immune system. It is perfectly possible for someone to be immunosuppressed AND have multiple allergies. It is perfectly possible for someone to have no allergies whatsoever and to also have autoimmune disease. It is perfectly possible for someone to have multiple serious infections with a perfectly normal immune system. It is perfectly possible for someone to have no problem with allergies and to also be highly susceptible to certain types of infection. And so on. Trying to make something as complex as this into a simple, binary, "on/off" thing is to demonstrate a huge lack of understanding and also contributes hugely to the misunderstanding that is so obviously rampant on the topic. I'm sorry to be pedantic, but if it's a topic of interest (as it obviously is given all the threads on the subject), it's worth doing some substantive reading about--a college-level physiology/immunology text is a good place to start. Not Wikipedia. :)

The immune system is like an army. Multiple divisions, multiple specialties, lots of different equipment designed to tackle different types of battles, warfare, and other situations. A good army functions well in all divisions. But it's entirely possible to have a great infantry and lousy air support, etc. etc. And if you try to beef up the air corps, you aren't necessarily hurting the ground troops, nor helping them, either.

[grayarabpony]

Honey, I don't have a huge lack of understanding. I have a biology degree and am married to a medical doctor. Yes, someone can have allergies and later become immune-suppressed for another reason, but an allergic reaction is a hyper-reaction of the immune system to an outside agent. That's what it is.

[RAyers]

Reed then explain to me why a person with active allergies has a high type E antibody count.

A blurp from Wikipedia: "Allergy is a disorder of the immune system often also referred to as atopy. Allergic reactions occur to environmental substances known as allergens; these reactions are acquired, predictable and rapid. Strictly, allergy is one of four forms of hypersensitivity and is called type I (or immediate) hypersensitivity. It is characterized by excessive activation of certain white blood cells called mast cells and basophils by a type of antibody known as IgE, resulting in an extreme inflammatory response. Common allergic reactions include eczema, hives, hay fever, asthma, food allergies, and reactions to the venom of stinging insects such as wasps and bees.[1]"

PS I have allergies, so I'm kind of familiar with them.



Oooo, Wikipedia, the font of all knowledge. And so accurate at times too. E.g. it is presenting in a confusing manner that inflammation and immunity are the same, not.

Hypersensitivity does NOT mean over active. It means that the immune system is atuned to specific antigens and will thus react more completely than normal. You may still see the same amount of antibodies/cells involved so no, it is not over active. It can be fatal if the feedback (supressive cpmponents such as, histamine, serotonin ECF-A, NCF-A) elements are lacking or you can have tissue anaphylaxis which is a very localized response.

I teach this as part of my Transplantation Immunology in my graduate class. I prefer texts such as Janice Kuby's "Immunology" and Tizard's "Veterinary Immunology" as references.

As for IgE, is the marker of a hypersensitized system, NOT an over active system. At thes ame time, you need double the amount of IgE to activte the target cell. IgE must bind in a 2:1 ratio (crosslinking) unlike IgG and other antibodies. Thus the presence of elevated IgE does not necessarily imply hypersensativity but is correllated to it.

Reed

[grayarabpony]

Reed, you seemed like you needed some Wikipedia knowledge. [edit]

I have seen immunologists for allergies, and sorry but they know more than you.

There is a profile of immunity response that is typical of allergies. Perhaps you'd better re-read your texts.

Inflammation is the result of with an immune response, and there's a lot of it in allergies due to the large production of type E antibodies.

I don't understand why you are attacking, especially since what you're saying doesn't even make any sense. Do you understand how the immune system works?? Your statements make me wonder.

[RAyers]

Strange, the immunologists I do research work with have no problem with me and we understand each other quite well. Oh, well continue in your own way.

And no, inflammation is NOT the result of immune response. It can be if alternate pathways are activated. Immune responses are the result of inflammation.

Reed


Reed, you seemed like you needed some Wikipedia knowledge. [edit]

I have seen immunologists for allergies, and sorry but they know more than you.

There is a profile of immunity response that is typical of allergies. Perhaps you'd better re-read your texts.

Inflammation is the result of with an immune response, and there's a lot of it in allergies due to the large production of type E antibodies.

I don't understand why you are attacking, especially since what you're saying doesn't even make any sense. Do you understand how the immune system works?? Your statements make me wonder.

[Melyni]

Generally speaking (always dangerous), skin problems such as fading, itchies, poor healing etc can be from low zinc as well as low copper. Try feeding something with both in it. The Zn:Cu ration should be ideally 3:1. And best of all is to use chelated minerals such as the ones Albion or ZinPro make. That way you can be sure that the animal does actually absorb the needed minerals.
Look for a product with either ZinPro 4plex or ZinPro Availa 4 in it.

Also check into essential fatty acid levels in the diet, not fat levels overall, but levels of Omega 3s rather than Omega 6s.

High Omega 3s and high Cu and Zn can do a world of wonders for generic unspecified crud and 'anemia'.

I doubt that Iron is the problem unless it 's so high in the soil it is interfering with Cu and Zn uptake.
Yours
MW

[grayarabpony]

Strange, the immunologists I do research work with have no problem with me and we understand each other quite well. Oh, well continue in your own way.

And no, inflammation is NOT the result of immune response. It can be if alternate pathways are activated. Immune responses are the result of inflammation.

Reed

Perhaps they're just sick of arguing with you. :lol: YES, inflammation can be the result of the immune system. I could pull up dozens of references but I don't need to convince myself or my doctor, and you can believe what you wish. [edit]

[grayarabpony]

Generally speaking (always dangerous), skin problems such as fading, itchies, poor healing etc can be from low zinc as well as low copper. Try feeding something with both in it. The Zn:Cu ration should be ideally 3:1. And best of all is to use chelated minerals such as the ones Albion or ZinPro make. That way you can be sure that the animal does actually absorb the needed minerals.
Look for a product with either ZinPro 4plex or ZinPro Availa 4 in it.

Also check into essential fatty acid levels in the diet, not fat levels overall, but levels of Omega 3s rather than Omega 6s.

High Omega 3s and high Cu and Zn can do a world of wonders for generic unspecified crud and 'anemia'.

I doubt that Iron is the problem unless it 's so high in the soil it is interfering with Cu and Zn uptake.
Yours
MW

After buying a hoof supplement I wondered whether it was the zinc actually helping the horses on the supplement, rather than the biotin.

[SSFLandon]

Just had the vet out today to look at the itchy belly on my treated NTW ol' guy. His hiney and neck itches went away but the belly remained. I did everything to try to ease the itch for him.

So I had her look - asked for a skin scrap - which we didnt do. But she did take his temp - it was 96. This was at 11am in 60o sunny weather.

She says his immune system is not allowing him to heal his itchies. I am to stop the alfalfa - as it is a suppressent (?) and we are adding iodine to his AM feeding. I am to record 2 weeks worth of daily temps taken in AM. If the iodine doesnt elevate the temp, then we move onto thyroid.

Has anyone else gone this route?

OP: have you monitored your horses temp to see if it is normal? Maybe this all relates to thyroid....?

interesting you talk about stomach crud and thyroid. I'm trying to figure out what is wrong with my filly. She has crud all over (including stomach) and also a low thyroid. She first presented with just the thyroid problem in the spring then later the skin stuff came up. I do not know her temps off hand but, I do know she has never had an elevated one. Her weight is good now (she was too fat) but, is very itchy. My vets do not think I should Double Dose her with any Ivermectin dewormers and that NTW are not the problem. She has been dewormed on a more then routine schdule. Hopefully her test results will come back soon so we can treat her. I have taken her off soy and alfalfa as well. I wonder if her thyroid is causing something with the crud and itchies?!?! she was tested and is not IR

[Melyni]

After buying a hoof supplement I wondered whether it was the zinc actually helping the horses on the supplement, rather than the biotin.

Could be both, the best hoof supplement I know of, has biotin, methionine, copper, zinc and fatty acids i it and it really does grow hoof! And I think that a good hoof supplement needs to haev all of the above in it to be really effective.
JMHO
Yours
MW

[Melyni]

interesting you talk about stomach crud and thyroid. I'm trying to figure out what is wrong with my filly. She has crud all over (including stomach) and also a low thyroid. She first presented with just the thyroid problem in the spring then later the skin stuff came up. I do not know her temps off hand but, I do know she has never had an elevated one. Her weight is good now (she was too fat) but, is very itchy. My vets do not think I should Double Dose her with any Ivermectin dewormers and that NTW are not the problem. She has been dewormed on a more then routine schdule. Hopefully her test results will come back soon so we can treat her. I have taken her off soy and alfalfa as well. I wonder if her thyroid is causing something with the crud and itchies?!?! she was tested and is not IR

Try a mineral supplement with the ZinPro products in it and essential fatty acids as well.
Might do the trick.
MW

[HandsomeBayFarm]

I believe that my horse had (has) NTW 100%. I am on the DD bandwagon 'cause I saw the "cure" happen in front of my eyes.

Now that is not to say that he has more than NTWs going on.

The reason I posted here is becuase today my vet (albeit she is on the holistic side) mentioned immune system when I told her about his continualy itchy belly.

*I* dont think the alf is causing the itchy. He wasnt on alf until after I treated for NTWs and pulled him off of commercial grain. Then again, maybe it is.

Anyhoo, so I am gonna pull the alfalfa because she said it is inhibiting his ability to fight the itchy on his own.

Then the iodine should help the thyroid which will help his immune system which will make his belly stop itching. :confused:

[stuge]

You guys need to take this private or something. I have a feeling that you all know what you are talking about but it comes down to semantics.

ANYWAY,

So I am trying to take this all in. I've been looking at supplements. So I emailed a TC nutritionish and mentioned the copper. She said that he "should" be fine with the copper since he is well above the NRC recommendations but she did forward my email on to someone else. His feed is balanced already, I am pretty confident in that without actually doing the math myself but is it possible his hay or the soil is throwing off the balance? Am I understanding that correctly?

So does anyone have any zinc and copper supplements they recommend? I've been trying to find a supplement myself but the only one I come across is Uckele's poly copper and that is just copper.

I just powerpaked him about a week ago. I was going to double dose him with Anthelcide two weeks after but just in case it is NTW's, how soon would it be safe to dbl dose equimax? Should I go ahead and dbl dose the anthelcide or wait? I know I should talk to my vet but I am not feeling the utmost confidence in her since she did say that he needed something like red cell. I've actually had a few vets the last few years say that so I'm not having confidence in any of our vets in this area.

[HandsomeBayFarm]

I would PM "chocomare" on this board with the timing of the dewormers.

BTW it is 1.5 x weight for the Anthelcide. Not a Double Dose.

[deltawave]

Uckele has a "performance horse grass" supplement that has a lot of copper, manganese, etc. in it. There is also one called "Winners Daily" that has quite a bit. They're both powders, which my horses are resistant to eating, though. I give them some mixed with their 12:12 minerals and let them choose what they want to eat, rather than mixing it with their feed.

[JB]

So I am trying to take this all in. I've been looking at supplements. So I emailed a TC nutritionish and mentioned the copper. She said that he "should" be fine with the copper since he is well above the NRC recommendations
According to the NRC recommendations, my guy *should* be fine as well. But even the NRC says that some of their "recommendations" are only what they have determined to keep the horse alive and basically healthy. There is a range between "this keeps me alive and seemingly healthy" and "this makes me REALLY healthy." And, you can't just look at what Cu is being ingested. Excess Fe can reduce the amount of Cu being used, and you and I are in a Fe-high area.


His feed is balanced already, I am pretty confident in that without actually doing the math myself but is it possible his hay or the soil is throwing off the balance? Am I understanding that correctly?
The feed may be "balanced" to itself, but yes, the hay and grass and weeds and leaves and tree nibblings throw that right out the window.

I just powerpaked him about a week ago. I was going to double dose him with Anthelcide two weeks after but just in case it is NTW's, how soon would it be safe to dbl dose equimax?
I personally would wait 4-6 weeks for a DD Equimax if you're going to try that. And remember, the general protocol for that is a DD 2 weeks apart for the most benefit.

Should I go ahead and dbl dose the anthelcide or wait?
Anthelcide would be 1.5x. If you want to do the DD Equimax, then wait 4 weeks after your last dose of that. Or, do the anthelcide 4 weeks after the PP, then the DD Equimax 4 weeks after the anthelcide.

I know I should talk to my vet but I am not feeling the utmost confidence in her since she did say that he needed something like red cell. I've actually had a few vets the last few years say that so I'm not having confidence in any of our vets in this area.
Sucky position to be in, not really trusting your vets :(

[SSFLandon]

please tell me more about Lin Pro products...thanks

[Moderator 1]

Please avoid the personal commentary; we've removed/edited a few posts.

Thanks,
Mod 1

[Melyni]

please tell me more about Lin Pro products...thanks

I make LinPro, you are welcome to PM me or email me at melyni@ntelos.net

I can give you all the info you could want!
MW