? About Setting your horse up for a jump

[luise]

So I attended a clinic this weekend, and the clinician was working on having us set the horses up for the jump properly, i.e. rebalancing them so that they are off the forehand and the hind end is underneath them (compress the canter more). What confused me is how he was having us do it. He had us bring our shoulders/upper body back a bit (fine, I've done that before, makes sense), half halt, but then take our leg off the horse assuming he was already going. Now, I've had other instructors have me do the same thing, but the difference was that I was told to keep my leg on a bit to keep the engine going. I can understand if you have a hot TB or something that is already going, but I have a lazy draft cross. Yeah, my horse was going because he respects my spurs (I don't have to use much of them at all), but I know my horse and if I take my leg completely off of him I get a crappy distance. So the couple of times I had no leg on him what happened? crappy distance. So then I put my leg on him just enough to remind he still needed to keep moving forward and we got perfect distances. Then the clinician had us come to a walk after the jump with zero leg on the horse. I've always been taught you should have a little leg on the horse for a downward transition so that he comes under himself. So now I'm confused. Does it depend on the type of horse? According to this instructor not really since he had us all doing the same thing. And for the other instructor who said to keep a little leg on, also didn't seem to depend on the horse.
I do plan on asking my trainer about this, but I'd like to hear what people think.

Oh, and this is a very well known and respected clinician too. Funny thing also is that he wanted me and my horse to "relax" a lot more and not push him so much at the walk. So I did and of course I couldn't get my horse on the bit because the walk was dead. Funnier thing though is that the clinician came into the ring when I was trotting around like I normally do, pushing him forward, letting him stretch down and round on the bit, and said that it looked great! I'm thinking he just didn't really understand my horse and what kind of ride he needs.

[flypony74]

A group of us did an x-c lesson with our instructor yesterday, and worked on this very same thing...and I'm on a slightly lazy draft cross, too.

My instructor has also been working with us in setting the horses up for the fence. Everything you said makes sense, but in my experience, I have NEVER had an instructor tell me to take my leg OFF, even on a hot horse. That makes no sense. You take the leg out of the equation, and not only does it leave a "hole" for them to "leak" behind your leg, but you lose a vital piece of your leg to hand connection. How can you push them to the base of the fence without leg? You want you horse to be clever and be able to think on his feet, but you don't want to drop them (leg or hand) right before the fence, where that support is most critical. With the downwards it makes no sense either...take your leg off, and you're getting a front-hind transition, and not a hind-front.

Granted, I'm not a pro, nor do I play one on TV, and I'm a very average adult ammy, but I've ridden with many good instructors over the years, and have never been told to take my leg off. Maybe someone else can shed some light as to why that clinician told you to do that.

[luise]

A group of us did an x-c lesson with our instructor yesterday, and worked on this very same thing...and I'm on a slightly lazy draft cross, too.

My instructor has also been working with us in setting the horses up for the fence. Everything you said makes sense, but in my experience, I have NEVER had an instructor tell me to take my leg OFF, even on a hot horse. That makes no sense. You take the leg out of the equation, and not only does it leave a "hole" for them to "leak" behind your leg, but you lose a vital piece of your leg to hand connection. How can you push them to the base of the fence without leg? You want you horse to be clever and be able to think on his feet, but you don't want to drop them (leg or hand) right before the fence, where that support is most critical. With the downwards it makes no sense either...take your leg off, and you're getting a front-hind transition, and not a hind-front.

Granted, I'm not a pro, nor do I play one on TV, and I'm a very average adult ammy, but I've ridden with many good instructors over the years, and have never been told to take my leg off. Maybe someone else can shed some light as to why that clinician told you to do that.

Yes, I agree 150% with you. These are my thoughts exactly. He would ask us when we went to walk to rate our amount of leg on a scale of 0-10. If we said anything more than 0, he was like, why? I always put my leg on at the base of the jump for support, as if to say, hey, we're jumping this! When I had a crappy jump, I said to him, well, that happened because I took my leg off at the last stride. His response was, "why did you have your leg on?" I am definitely going to ask my trainers about this and see what they think. I'm just annoyed that I spent all this money, and really didn't learn anything new or different.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

not sure if this is the answer...but perhaps the instructor was trying to get you to not be always having a conversation with your leg (that deadens them to your leg). In other words, you take your leg off when it isn't needed but put it on when you do....not just always put it on. So if you have a crappy fence, it wasn't because you took your leg off, it was because he dropped behind your leg. If asked why you put your leg on.....your response shouldn't be because I always put it on but because you felt him start to drop behind your leg. You shouldn't always be riding with leg on telling them to go if they are already going. If they are not going, well then you put your legs on. There is also a difference between having your leg against your horse and adding leg....you of course will have a slight connection with your leg to keep it in position, but not necessarily be adding pressure to tell them to go. That gives confusing signals if you are both telling them to go with your leg and half halting with your reins.


Not sure if that is what was being instructed to you but that is how it comes accross to me.

[Bobthehorse]

Personally, I would just forget it. I agree with you, even on a hot forward horse, keeping the leg on is what keeps the engine going up and over, and you do need MORE leg when you shorten the canter (or any gait), so it doesnt die. And keeping the leg on for downward transitions is key too, if you want a nice walk or halt, that is. If I take my leg off, I get a high headed halt, that isnt square, and is sometimes crooked. Not good. Or I get a walk that feels like my horse fell into a slow crappy walk, not a nice balanced transition to a nice forward walk.

I was always taught to "squeeze the toothpaste" out of the horse to the base of the jump, an not to be sure he's going until he lands on the other side. And he was jumping better than ever this year, when I kept my impulsion to the fence and didnt take my leg off and just sit and wait.

Ive never been to a clinic, but I would find it frustrating to pay for one that I got nothing out of.

[greygirls]

I hear yah. I took my draft cross to a clinic, and the clinician (UL) laughed as my mare politely "stepped" one foot at a time up on to a bank--it was just too much effort to "jump" up:). She does the same over anything under 2'6, especially cross rails--thinks it's a waste of her time and attention. Give her something worthwhile now, and she'll use herself a bit better.

I don't think they (clinicians) can identify too much with riding the lazy horse 'cause they're used to the enthusiasm and energy of TB's. Don't get me wrong, I learned a lot at that clinic and enjoyed the clinician immensely, but he had to work with us in a slightly different way--bottom line: keep her comin' from behind. For us that means leg on with spurs and occasional whip taps to get her attention.

My very humble opinion is that you know your horse best, so ride it the way you know works best for you. I'm sure there's other useful stuff you took away from the clinic.

But I truly identify.

[purplnurpl]

Jim had us do some exercises kind of like that.

But he used the terms Air/Skin/and Bone to account for how much pressure you are putting on your horse.

And he too had us walk with no leg but in two point. lol. I was a loser and totally couldn't do it.

My horse is much better off the aids now. Not from just that clinic but the clinic opened my eyes a little so I went home and taught my horse and I a thing or two about pressure and impulsion.
: )

[luise]

Personally, I would just forget it. I agree with you, even on a hot forward horse, keeping the leg on is what keeps the engine going up and over, and you do need MORE leg when you shorten the canter (or any gait), so it doesnt die. And keeping the leg on for downward transitions is key too, if you want a nice walk or halt, that is. If I take my leg off, I get a high headed halt, that isnt square, and is sometimes crooked. Not good. Or I get a walk that feels like my horse fell into a slow crappy walk, not a nice balanced transition to a nice forward walk.

I was always taught to "squeeze the toothpaste" out of the horse to the base of the jump, an not to be sure he's going until he lands on the other side. And he was jumping better than ever this year, when I kept my impulsion to the fence and didnt take my leg off and just sit and wait.

Ive never been to a clinic, but I would find it frustrating to pay for one that I got nothing out of.

I'm usually not a fan of doing clinics--hate standing around and waiting, hate listening to the endless stories, etc, but the clinic was at my barn, so I was like, why not, where else would I ride? I prefer to audit--I find I learn just as much, if not more. Anyway, if my horse is going then yeah, I'm not nagging him with my leg, it's resting quietly against his side, but the last few strides before a fence I put my leg back on. Maybe it's just a 1/10, but just enough to encourage my horse and say, hey, we're going over this! The clinician wanted me to just sit and wait for the fence. My horse will jump anything, but not always if I'm a passenger--he wants to be sure that we're both committed to the fence. Again, I think I'm really just frustrated, and feel like it was a waste of money.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I'm usually not a fan of doing clinics--hate standing around and waiting, hate listening to the endless stories, etc, but the clinic was at my barn, so I was like, why not, where else would I ride? I prefer to audit--I find I learn just as much, if not more. Anyway, if my horse is going then yeah, I'm not nagging him with my leg, it's resting quietly against his side, but the last few strides before a fence I put my leg back on. Maybe it's just a 1/10, but just enough to encourage my horse and say, hey, we're going over this! The clinician wanted me to just sit and wait for the fence. My horse will jump anything, but not always if I'm a passenger--he wants to be sure that we're both committed to the fence. Again, I think I'm really just frustrated, and feel like it was a waste of money.


But I guess the point would be why do you even need that extra 1/10.....if he drops back behind your leg those last few strides, I understand.....but you have to ride the horse you have that moment, not always do the same thing. It may be that he does drop behind your leg the last few strides and you will always have to add that little bit of leg....but the reason you are putting it on is because he is dropping back...not just putting it on for the sake of putting it on. It is all about feeling what your horse is doing and riding the horse at that moment. It is a stage of training....once you get beyond the basics, this is the next step.

[Bobthehorse]

Yeah, my horse is an honest guy, but he hates a wishy washy rider, which I was when I was younger, and he would stop all the time. He likes me to be committed, because if Im not, he starts to doubt us both.

[luise]

But I guess the point would be why do you even need that extra 1/10.....if he drops back behind your leg those last few strides, I understand.....but you have to ride the horse you have that moment, not always do the same thing. It may be that he does drop behind your leg the last few strides and you will always have to add that little bit of leg....but the reason you are putting it on is because he is dropping back...not just putting it on for the sake of putting it on. It is all about feeling what your horse is doing and riding the horse at that moment. It is a stage of training....once you get beyond the basics, this is the next step.

Well, maybe that's why I put my leg back on. Because he does or can get behind my leg those last few strides. I do lessons with a 2nd wonderful trainer who has really helped us advance a lot, and we both found that when I took my leg off completely the last few strides, I stopped "riding" my horse, and left him to his own devices, which wasn't always pretty. Because the canter would sometimes deteriorate, he'd take the jump long, and it wasn't a good feeling. Sorry, but I don't want to risk that. Now, I know we want our horses to think for themselves. on XC it's a completely different story since he has more enthusiasm. But I still will put my leg on, even if just a little, at the base of the jump. It's what I've been taught.

[Gestalt]

not sure if this is the answer...but perhaps the instructor was trying to get you to not be always having a conversation with your leg (that deadens them to your leg). In other words, you take your leg off when it isn't needed but put it on when you do....not just always put it on. So if you have a crappy fence, it wasn't because you took your leg off, it was because he dropped behind your leg. If asked why you put your leg on.....your response shouldn't be because I always put it on but because you felt him start to drop behind your leg. You shouldn't always be riding with leg on telling them to go if they are already going. If they are not going, well then you put your legs on. There is also a difference between having your leg against your horse and adding leg....you of course will have a slight connection with your leg to keep it in position, but not necessarily be adding pressure to tell them to go. That gives confusing signals if you are both telling them to go with your leg and half halting with your reins.


Not sure if that is what was being instructed to you but that is how it comes accross to me.


Leg means go, if I'm approaching a fence, we should already have "go" established. If something happens like a spook, sure, add leg and get your "go" again. I'm learning this concept with a dressage clinician. It really makes riding easier when you put the horse in front of your leg.

[luise]

Let me just talk about the other 2 horses that were in my session--one is a TB/WB cross, had done a 4* (novice rider owns him now), and the other is a connemara. Both of them are naturally forward horses. So for these riders they can pull their shoulders back and give a half halt, and it is a lot easier for their horses to keep going while getting their hind ends under them. My horse is a draft cross. He's a lot lazier. And before everyone starts yelping about how he's got to be lighter to the aids, I don't want to hear it, because when I got him I couldn't even get him to trot or canter once around the ring, or couldn't get him to canter from the walk. Now I can think canter and he'll pick it up from a walk no problem. So for him, he's gotten pretty light to the aids. But he's built a lot differently. He doesn't have an uphill build like the other 2 horses. It's a lot harder for him to rebalance. So while he may have the "go" when coming toward a fence, if I pull my shoulders back and half halt with zero leg on him, what happens? He's not in front of my leg anymore. He doesn't have the same engine as the other horses.
Anyway, so my question is though, do you guys really take your leg completely off when approaching a fence and rebalancing your horse? You don't even put it on at the base of a fence? And you use no leg in a downward transition? I find that hard to believe. Especially since 3 other instructors I've had (all of whom are very advanced) don't advocate that.

[Jleegriffith]

Well I like all my horses hot so I don't really need that much leg on most of them b/c I have spent a lot of time installing the forward button and teaching them to balance themselves. Do I teach people to take there leg off well yes in some cases a rider might have a case of the gun and run and I will instruct them to do nothing. You would be suprised how much some riders are actually doing on a way to a fence which can throw off the horse.

Teaching a horse to stop w/o legs. Well I ride a ton of ottb's and all my horses stop with me in 2pt just closing my knee. I do a lot of riding just opening and closing my knee to alter my hip angle. I can land and never touch my reins and just sink a bit lower into the tack and close my knee and that horse stops. No leg really involved b/c it is not the same as dressage. I also do a lot of half halts with my knee so if I land over a fence and want to rebalance instead of taking a bit whoa on the reins I just sit up and close the knee and the horse comes slower and more uphill.

On the way to the fence especially the last three strides you should just be along for the ride and then at the base you can squeeze the horse off the ground otherwise not much going on for me.

[eponacowgirl]

Flypony and I rode in the same clinic yesterday. Shes on the lazy draft cross, I am on a very GO GO GO GO GO TB mare. We both had the same instruction- leg on.

My trainer has made me work on making her a horse that accepts leg at ALL costs, and when we came around the turns to our fences yesterday, it was sit up, keep the connection, keep her soft in your hand and LEG LEG LEG to the fence. If I took my leg off, we had a crappy spot. Leg on? Perfect "pat, pat, pat" up to the fence.

[quietann]

So much depends on the horse. I'm currently not jumping (and may have to give it up entirely, sigh), but with the gelding (who may be a draft cross, no one knows, but he's got a lot of TB in him too), who's lazy but spooky and also will stop if his rider is unconfident, I can't imagine using the clinician's approach. One must keep leg on from about 3 strides out, or one's asking for a stop. (And if he slows -- which is a sign he's thinking of stopping -- he gets a big boot to remind him of his job!) Talking to him constantly also helps.

With hot little Morgan, though I have barely jumped her, the clinician's approach would be helpful because she is super-speedy and often chips her fences. She also needs a "wall of aids" on the right though, to prevent the last-second run-out.

Both these horses have competed at Novice and school Training, and hot little Morgan would go Prelim easily if I was willing to give her up to someone who loves to jump :)

[Jleegriffith]

Any chance he meant just be supportive with your leg and just don't do anything different? Even on a slow horse I make sure to set up my pace a good distance out so that I am just maintaining on my way to the fence and not shoving them at it. Perhaps he meant that?

Sometimes you just have to have that conversation with the instructor to get to the bottom of what they are thinking.

[LarissaL]

Seems maybe the meaning was lost in translation? I'd interpret the clinician's intent the same as "don't touch his mouth" or something similar. Balance the horse, let him find his stride and let the jump come to you. Don't adjust, adjust, adjust.

I'm really leaning towards that.

if I pull my shoulders back and half halt with zero leg on him, what happens? He's not in front of my leg anymore.

If there's no leg, there's no half halt. If there's no leg, there's no "in front of the leg."

I can't see that a clinician who understands slight movement in the rider's upper body can influence and rebalance, would term a rein only aid a half halt. So I'm thinking the message was warped after it came out of his/her mouth.

Do you know any other folks in the clinic who you could compare notes with?

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I stopped "riding" my horse.



I think this is the key. Just doing nothing or not putting your leg on does not mean to stop riding. You have to react. You have to feel what they are doing and react quickly. If when you take your leg off...you sit like a lump on a log and let them change their canter..well that isn't riding. But the next stage of riding is learning when you need to add leg and when you don't....and it will be different on every horse and at every fence but it should be done by feel. I think one of the HARDEST things to do is to sit quiet to a fence and not add leg.....I know that I struggle with it. I've had stoppers and think that I aways need to add leg....well there comes a point where they are no longer stoppers and I need to stop riding them like they are one. I have to constantly think, the canter feels good, they feel right, I see we are on target for a good distance...just sit quiet and let my horse do their job. It doesn't not mean stop riding.

And I think there is a difference between leg off (where you just have a feel of their side)....and no leg when you have air between your leg. When a trainer tells me to take my leg off, to me they are saying not to add pressure but you still need your leg connected to the side of the horse. And I disagree, you can have them in front of your leg without leg pressure on them all the time. In front of the leg is about balance and implusion....not leg pressure.

[Hilary]

Well, look at it this way - the clinician had never seen you before and perhaps it looked like you were way overdoing with your leg and when told to do "less" it appeared that you were still overdoing it so s/he said "NONE" in an attempt to get you to use less.

Sometimes you click with a clinician and sometimes you don't. There are times when you do exactly as s/he says and let it all go to $#&@ just to prove your point, too. If you learned something from the clinic take it and move on and don't follow the advice that really doesn't work for you.

It sounds like you are on the right track with your guy and maybe not ready for so much less leg but it should be a goal that your horse not fall behind the leg when you stop kicking (so to speak, I'm not saying you're flailing away like a Thelwell cartoon)

[ss3777]

So I have tried to reply to this and it is really hard to express my interpretation. But I will go way out on a limb and try. I am 99% sure I know who you rode with. His expectations and philosophies can be a big departure from what a lot of people are used to. He brings you to another level of riding. When most people start riding the supporting leg is often to keep the rider on, not keep the horse going. It sounds like you are well past staying on and ready to be responsible for the horses training. Nothing beats riding a horse that is light to the aides. How do you get a horse light to the aides? You start to ask. I also struggle with a horse (OTTB) that is a bit dead to the leg. It has improved drastically over the last year. Why? I swallowed the Kool-Aide and stopped accepting him ignoring my leg. If you need to make adjustments (go or whoa) during the last 3 strides, things are probably not going to well. When the jumps are low, you can get away with it but really difficult once you have some height. I am still struggling but once I realized how detrimental my nagging leg was to our progress, I could start to reverse what I had trained into him. Once I could balance off my stirrups and made sure that my legs were not bracing, grabbing or pinching; I could see an improvement in the horses I rode. That soft leg allows horses to use their backs (be more thru) much more effectively. Your guy might need the gas pedal right to the base at this point of his career but when you are able to get him to the point that a little leg punches him forward into the bridle and a little movement from your sternum raises his poll, you will really be going places!!! An adjustable canter is the corner stone to jumping. You can not adjust the canter unless the horse is forward into the bridle. I know, maybe that is a LOT of Kool-Aide for one weekend. I hope I did not muddy the waters, It is on going learning process for me!!!

[luise]

Well, let me also just say this. Before we even started, the clinician looked at me as we were standing there sitting on our horses, and said, "why have you got your leg on your horse like that." I was like huh? That's how my leg sits. I'm short, and my horse has a large barrel, which means that bottom half of my calf and heel area rest on his side. That's just how we're built. My toe will never be turned in (at rest) more than 30-45 degrees when my stirrups are at a jumping length. Anyway, he seemed to think that my leg was constantly "on" my horse, which it wasn't. And then he was kind of pulling at my legs/thighs, etc, saying to relax more, why were they on the horse so much, and didn't believe me when I told him I was relaxed! I've just come to the conclusion that not every horse is the same ride, and that his teaching style was just not for me.

Also, no one has really addressed though why one clinician said to rebalance the horse with leg and one said not to. Both clinicians were of equal caliber and experience, so you can't use the argument one is less experienced. And both times they were teaching riders with some experience, not greenies.

[RAyers]

Here is my take:

Does it REALLY matter? If it doesn't work for your horse don't do it. BNR/ULR clinicians are not perfect. They don't really know your horse or you other than the hour or two they see you. OUR responsibility as riders is to take the clinician's instruction, keep it if it works and toss it if it doesn't. I take my weekly trainer's advice over the clinician almost ANY time because they know me and my horse. At the same time if I learn something in a clinic and it works, I work with my trainers to integrate it into my program.

There is something to be said about having a dedicated regular trainer to create your program and to NOT always take a clinician's word or instruction as gospel.

Reed

[ss3777]

I really love clinics and I find conflicting interpretations inevitable. As I am a clinic-aholic, I feel your pain!!! Some of the biggies that I have ridden with in the last few years include Denny Emerson, Bruce Davidson, Beth Perkins, Kerri Milliken, Bobbi Costello and Eric Horgan. They all want the same thing engine and balance. But some of them said it very differently. I also heard it differently depending on where my horse and I where at as far as our own progression. Probably both clinicians you rode with were after the same result but had different expectations of your skill set. I remember riding with one of the above the first day and thinking, yikes, this does not sound like the theory I am used to. The next day, it all became clearer and much closer to what I understood to be true. Not sure if on day one I was deaf or the instructor was speaking another language, probably my head was a bit in lock...........one lesson is not enough sometimes.

One of the things that has helped me with this conflict is trying to spend my clinic $$ primarily with the one BNT that works closely with my own coach. I have to admit that if there is a an opportunity to ride XC on a typically closed course I forgo the above mantra and take a chance!

Whatever the case, your clinic did get you to challenge your current belief system, that cannot be all that bad, right?

[Carol Ames]

Do what works with your horse:yes:; maybe your next horse will be different,:cool: and need what the clinician described:lol:; Just listen to your horse and do whatever is needed:winkgrin:!

[luise]

Thanks everyone. I was just curious what everyone's opinion was. I will take a little of what I learned from the clinic, but in the end I know how my horse needs to be ridden. It was just a little disconcerting though because I felt like I was hearing opposite things from instructors of the same magnitude, so I want to know what others thought.

[lstevenson]

Also, no one has really addressed though why one clinician said to rebalance the horse with leg and one said not to. Both clinicians were of equal caliber and experience, so you can't use the argument one is less experienced. And both times they were teaching riders with some experience, not greenies.


I have a feeling that the clinician that was telling you to take your leg off was not telling you to try to balance your horse that way, but to leave your already balanced horse alone! If the horse is already balanced and going forward, more leg can have the effect of pushing the horse out of balance.

[Philosopher]

I know how my horse needs to be ridden.

Which is probably why you don't enjoy/ get much out of clinics.

[RAyers]

Which is probably why you don't enjoy/ get much out of clinics.


I beg to differ. When a rider knows how their horse should be ridden, they can spend more time in a clinic thinking about the instruction/ideas affect their ride and thus refine what they do. I enjoy clinics because they can be a fountain of ideas and I may take 1 or 2 new tools away. I may never use them but I have them.

When a rider does not know how their horse should be ridden, they lose the filter of what is good and bad instruction for them and so they may grasp everything as gospel.

Reed

[Dr. Doolittle]

I beg to differ. When a rider knows how their horse should be ridden, they can spend more time in a clinic thinking about the instruction/ideas affect their ride and thus refine what they do. I enjoy clinics because they can be a fountain of ideas and I may take 1 or 2 new tools away. I may never use them but I have them.

When a rider does not know how their horse should be ridden, they lose the filter of what is good and bad instruction for them and so they may grasp everything as gospel.

Reed

Excellent insights, here; I agree :yes:

I always try to keep an open mind when riding with a clinician (especially with one who doesn't know my horse--who can be quite a piece of work!), and use what techniques/suggestion/insights/tools they provide in such a way as to complement what I already know works for my individual horse.

If it doesn't happen to work for me in my individual situation (but is still a valid and useful piece of information), it will then become another tool in my toolkit for training other horses/students when the opportunity arises.

Don't "throw the baby out with the bathwater", but OTOH, don't "drink the Koolaid". :D

[Ajierene]

I beg to differ. When a rider knows how their horse should be ridden, they can spend more time in a clinic thinking about the instruction/ideas affect their ride and thus refine what they do. I enjoy clinics because they can be a fountain of ideas and I may take 1 or 2 new tools away. I may never use them but I have them.

When a rider does not know how their horse should be ridden, they lose the filter of what is good and bad instruction for them and so they may grasp everything as gospel.

Reed

Or you can reject everything off hand, which is what I think Philosopher was getting at. The comment 'I know how my horse should be ridden', could be interpreted to indicate that the author is assuming anyone that tells them anything different from what the author believes, is wrong.

Meaning - going to a clinic, having someone tell you something different and assuming the clinician doesn't know what they are talking about without really trying to understand it.

I am not saying that this is exactly what is happening here, but I think the original poster and the clinician may have not been on the same page regarding what 'leg off' means.

[bip]

Luise, I have ridden with that clinician, worked on that same thing, and came away feeling similar to what you are describing. We completely undermined Mare's confidence that day, and didn't do much for mine either. It took us a few months to get our game back.

I have no idea why this particular person is so beloved. He doesn't explain things well at all, and you hardly want to ask a question because he will talk for 20 minutes and you end up more confused than before you asked the question. His analogies don't make a lot of sense, and he contradicts himself a lot. Our lesson was supposed to be 1:45 and he had us out there for almost 3 hours. By the end, in addition to being confused and worried, Mare was really pissed off.

Maybe he is better for the UL riders, I don't know. I do know that I did a clinic with Leslie Law and absolutely loved him. I also ride as often as possible w/Suzi Gornall and Amy Barrington, so even though I'm not the most experienced person out there, I feel like I have enough of a frame of reference to make these observations.

I've done clinics before where I didn't think the instructor was worth the $, or I just wasn't in love with their style, but that was the first time I realized that there is some risk in riding with clinicians you don't know even if they are highly recommended on COTH (which people are always saying here, I guess I just needed to learn it first hand).

[Janet]

Oversimplifying.

Just as you should NOT need to use you hand on every stride to stop the horse from going faster, you should NOT need to use you leg on every stride to keep the horse from going slower.

Just as "clutching" at the hot horse will make it LESS responsive to the hand, using you leg on every stride will make the "dull" horse LESS responsive to your leg.

But that doesn't mean that you need to put a loop in the rein, nor take your leg completely off the horse's side.

[luise]

Thanks everyone again for all the great responses.
bip, you hit the nail on the head. Was it that obvious with whom I cliniced? ;) The stories were endless and so unnecessary! My horse got sick of standing around. I did too.
I do have an open mind which is why I did the clinic. I thought I had a pretty good idea of how to ride my horse, but I was open to trying his techniques. I am constantly trying to learn if there is a better way. Well, I learned that his style doesn't work for me. I'm not saying I know 100% how to ride my horse, but I have a general idea of what he needs I think after this clinic. And there was no confusion of what he meant when he said leg off--he made is pretty crystal clear and drilled it into us. I think he practically want to see daylight between our legs and the horses' sides, because when my leg was resting quiety on the horse's side, he asked why my leg was on him.
I think Reed is correct in that because I have an idea of how to ride my horse, I did try to incorporate some of his techniques and refine my ride. I guess whereas before I maybe pushed more to the jump, I did try and be patient and wait for the jump, but still added a little leg when necessary.
Now the reassuring thing is that today I spoke with one of my trainers, an excellent ULR who was in the top 50 riders last year. Her response was, "has he gone off the deep end? You can't ride your horse with no leg!" She's ridden my horse and knows he needs a a little more leg than the average horse. She also thought that it was completely unrealistic to try and expect me to ride that way with my horse. She also agreed that my horse may appear that he's going one way, when we know there's really more going on, and so he probably didn't understand my horse too well. I also talked to some other riders who did the clinic, and they felt the same why that I did. So at least I know it's not just me. So what did I learn? Well, I learned I will stick with my regular trainers since they know me and my horse.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

So what did I learn? Well, I learned I will stick with my regular trainers since they know me and my horse.


That isn't a bad plan...and that can be worth a clinic to learn ;) I do think that clinics have their place though. I'm just very careful who I ride with and on what horse. My one young horse I will only ride with two trainers since they both know him well and he's a bit special. I would not take a clinic with any one else on him. But generally I like clinics because I learn almost more watching what is done with other riders....and can hear things said a bit differently but they shouldn't replace being in a good consistent program with a trainer who knows you well. And if you have been riding with good people, and are in a clinic with a good person (two big ifs). I would be surprised if you really heard anything new....it is usually substantively the same but perhaps said in a different manner or taught with a new exercise.

[luise]

That isn't a bad plan...and that can be worth a clinic to learn ;) I do think that clinics have their place though. I'm just very careful who I ride with and on what horse. My one young horse I will only ride with two trainers since they both know him well and he's a bit special. I would not take a clinic with any one else on him. But generally I like clinics because I learn almost more watching what is done with other riders....and can hear things said a bit differently but they shouldn't replace being in a good consistent program with a trainer who knows you well. And if you have been riding with good people, and are in a clinic with a good person (two big ifs). I would be surprised if you really heard anything new....it is usually substantively the same but perhaps said in a different manner or taught with a new exercise.

Yeah, that's why I think I prefer to audit. I audited two clinics last year and learned a lot. One of them was with Michael Page, and I learned that I am pretty lucky that I have a trainer who does a lot of gymnastics! The other was with Sally Cousins, with whom one of my trainers rides, so the clinic itself was not very different from her lessons. So yes, I learned a lot there too just watching (some neat exercises and stuff), but it also made me realize how lucky I am to have the trainers that I do! And that I could get the same instruction for half the price. ;)

[melodiousaphony]

I think it's important to consider that riding isn't made up of a group of general formulas that are applicable to all horses. Clinics, from my experience, give you a perspective on how one particular person, with their particular style, may approach a problem. The result of all methods *should* be basically the same, a well balanced, forward moving horse with a quality canter going over a fence, etc., but how to get there can differ. It's tough when you aren't a true ULR/Trainer because you can't at that point afford to develop your own style, as you lack the experience (myself included) to know what is *really* working and what isn't. So then you're at a vulnerable point, trusting people for various reasons to give you the tools to someday be able to solve problems independently.
I've ridden with both Luise and Bip, and having done so I can TOTALLY see where your frustration would come from, particularly with the "unnamed clinician." I also know I've ridden with the same individual and, depending on where my horse and I were at the time, gotten both a bit shaken and a lot out of it.
I've had the same thing happen with other trainers as well. Once, it was as simple as me not speaking up when I should have. That's another lesson that has to be learned and it's tough: SPEAK UP.
Another thing that can be difficult is communication. Two people can connect to an idea via two different presentations thereof. Sometimes, trainers are good at finding which one works, some have a hard time finding different ways to convey points or don't quite "hit the nail on the head" in a way with which one rider clicks.
As for your original question, Luise, the taking your leg off bit is confusing. What I took away from that idea, when presented too me, was to not grip or give unnecessary aids. I thought of it as keeping the airways "clear" in case you NEED a signal to work. In a perfect world, you could set your horse at a pace, nice and forward, and you'd only need aids to signal change.
Unfortunately, I don't live in that perfect world!

[NeverTime]

So why is the clinician's name such a state secret? Perhaps if you shared that, people who have ridden with the clinician and do understand him might be able to explain/share better.

[RoeVee]

Nevertime - don't you think it is Eric?

Classic Eric from the description of what was said.

(who is also one of my absolute favorite clinicians!!)

[Horseless1]

Haha- I guess it is obvious once you've audited/ridden with him. Luise - I agree - what you learned at that clinic may not have helped your riding directly with the horse you have now. BUT it may help on a future horse (perhaps one with more go ;) ) Also you honed your idea of what kind of trainers work best with you in terms of communication styles. And you got to do a bit of research on one of the fundamentals of riding - the leg aid.

[NeverTime]

Sure, it sounds like Eric. I just think it's silly not to say. It's not like people are slamming the guy, but discussions are much more productive when small but important tidbits like that are shared.

[melodiousaphony]

Sure, it sounds like Eric. I just think it's silly not to say. It's not like people are slamming the guy, but discussions are much more productive when small but important tidbits like that are shared.

I only avoided saying who as the OP did.

[luise]

Yes, the guesses about the clinician are correct. I didn't want to mention who it was because I felt like I was slamming the guy to some extent. I wasn't happy with my experience. I felt like I wasted my money. And I did ask him questions to clarify things. When I got a bad distance to a fence I explained what I did to see if we could figure out what went wrong. But the more I think about it, and the more I spoke with one of my other trainers, he seemed like he just didn't get my horse. She even confirmed that my horse probably isn't great for clinics because he can be hard to understand unless you've ridden him. oh well. Like I said, I did learn some things from the clinic, but I'm just disappointed that I didn't come away with me.

[vbunny]

Not all BNT can work with all horses and riders, don't think they are Gods because they are not. I have never had a horse in training go so badly as during lessons with Ralph Hill or Mike Plumb and people rave about them. Part of your training is learning how to pick coaches that work for you specifically. Its a lot easier to work with people who really help you than to have to sift through the information you have been given by someone that isn't quite right.

[Kairoshorses]

Yeah, my horse is an honest guy, but he hates a wishy washy rider, which I was when I was younger, and he would stop all the time. He likes me to be committed, because if Im not, he starts to doubt us both.

Are you sure you're not talking about MY horse?!