Anyone know? Eventing dressage "training scale"... [Archive]

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RunForIt

Nov. 23, 2008, 05:42 PM

yellowbritches

Nov. 23, 2008, 05:55 PM

I don't know if there is a real different scale....I don't think there should be. All our babies learn about forward and rhythm and balance. They learn about being soft and flexible and bendy, and slowly add onto that as they get stronger and more comfortable with the whole concept of contact and accepting the bridle. Some progress faster than others, but they all build on the same foundation. Forward and rhythm and balance. These are the three things that they will keep coming back to in ALL THREE PHASES of the sport, so we start with that and always go back to it.

I think if people are shortening their reins and cramming their horses into stiff, unnatural frames they are TOTALLY missing the point.

Does that help AT ALL??? ;)

ThirdCharm

Nov. 23, 2008, 06:17 PM

If the horse is being shortened without learning to lengthen the topline and reach into the bridle and become rounder in a relaxed fashion, the training is incorrect for dressage OR eventing.

Rode in the Phillip Dutton clinic yesterday and he emphasized during the flatwork that the horse had to be relaxed, bending, and REACHING for the bit.

I would disagree that the lower levels require a short frame. Although sometimes judges reward the wrong things, a correctly 'through' horse in a longer frame will beat a incorrectly crammed horse the majority of the time, even through Prelim. IF all else is equal.

Jennifer

retreadeventer

Nov. 23, 2008, 06:21 PM

oh Jenn, more about the clinic! Please!

pwynnnorman

Nov. 23, 2008, 08:15 PM

This is something I've mulled over quite a lot, so I'm going to indulge in a bit of public stream-of-consciousness writing which I'm not asking anyone to actually wade through in its entirety!

I think that kind of "idealism" (for lack of a better word) which Jenn implies is increasingly rare--perhaps because it lacks the efficiency of function and form that is required of today's sport. From what I've observed, the modern event horse must learn to use its back in a very, very different way from the dressage horse, show jumper or hunter--and one sees this difference in the way eventers (aiming at the upper levels, that is--not lower level ones) develop their horses, IMO, although I doubt they do so consciously (or, better put, as hyper-intellectually as a dressage fanatic would).

The OP has seen what I think I see, too: submission and consistency is emphasized far more than throughness and engagement. The event horse's dressage frame is much more fixed. This is NOT to say that no event horses involve their backs, but I do believe it is much more rare--AND that it makes sense, too. For one thing, to expect controlled engagement in a horse fit enough to take 36 jumps in 11 minutes or so is probably unreasonable. But for another thing, the shape of the event horse over the jump seems to emulate its shape on the flat. Just as it is rare to find that truly through event horse--the one whose neck stays long, even in high collection--it is also rare to see the event horse produce a deep bascule over fences. The topline o/f is usually somewhat "restricted," again in much the same way it is on the flat. It has to be, of course, because of terrain, footing, speed, related distances, bending tracks, etc., etc.

Show jumpers and hunters are usually (with the exception of the occasional jump off round) given as much freedome to use their toplines as possible--and I've noticed that their riders tend to warm up working much, much more seriously on stretching and flexing those toplines, riding in deep flexion-both lateral and longitudinal, using lots of back-demanding transitions--such as walk to canter and canter to walk or halt, and working on moving the quarters and/or the forehand on and off the track, and riding the topline accordion (stretching and compressing it). And with the sole exception of the jump off round, what you see in hunters and in show jumpers are long, long releases--given the horse a lot of freedom in the air, but also warming it up so that when it lands, it can rebalance and come back to the aids quickly and/or sublely/smoothly (for the hunter). Again, that makes sense: in those sports, it is advantageous for the horse to extend rather than compress its topline in the air and land in a soft, prepared frame. In contrast, the event horse almost always compresses its topline in the air and lands going forward, even in combinations and complexes.

This is not criticism of the event horse, of course. I see it as form following function, in fact. Indeed, the best illustration of what I mean by the submissive, fixed topline of the event horse (and, no, that doesn't mean one can't or doesn't get the horse to stretch, laterally or longitudinally--stretching simply isn't used in the same way or to the same extent, IMO) I saw when watching a lesson. At the start of the lesson, before any warmup except trotting a few simple circles, the rider was told to put the horse's nose on the verticle and demand that it stay there from the very first step it took out of the halt through every step at every gait thereafter.

THAT is submission. THAT is divorcing the back from what the head and neck are doing (and vice versa). That, perhaps, is the difference between forward vs engaged, power vs cadence, stability vs elasticity, consistency vs expression. (Yup, sorry, but the dressage fanatic is rearing its ugly head now--it's been dormant in me for years, but I've been riding two beasties who someday will be my personal dressage mounts and I'm getting really "into" it all again, thanks to them.)

But doesn't all this make sense (with respect to the flatwork/dressage standards of the different sports)? I enjoy the dressage of my personal horses because I like to follow Klaus Baulkenhol's suggestion of "work as play." As a result, I allow more expression and freedom from my personal (in contrast to sales) horses and am not anywhere near as demanding about the stability or reliability of frame, carriage and/or submissiveness. I've got years to let their musculature develop the strength, coordination and suppleness it needs to be all that and expressive, too.

But for the serious event rider, allowing a galloping fit horse to even think that it can "play" on the flat would be outrageous, I suspect. Having to ride the frame is inefficient and worrying about the physical development needed to sustain a high frame probably doesn't come as naturally to the event rider as it does to the dressage rider. For the former, the frame must be what it needs to be as soon as possible so it can be exhibited but also so it can be used to produce an efficient, rideable course. And the horse should assume the frame--whether it is navigating tight elements in a stadium course or xc complex or dressage test-- without even the slightest hesitation or resistance because in eventing, there simply isn't time to fiddle with and/or tweak the minutiae of ideal carriage in the way the dressage rider (or hunter rider) can and does, even while performing an actual test or round. The jumper becomes more like the eventer in this area, but the jumper faces greater physical challenges requiring a more extreme coupling of power, quick reactions (to rider aids) and agility, which I think is noticable in the differences between jumper and eventer warm ups).

Sorry to go on, but this has fascinated me. I have, in the past, ranted about seeing few UL event riders warm up for dressage by stretching, doing lateral work, or engaging the topline through transitions between and witihn gait, etc., etc., but as I've watched a fairly large set of UL riders over an extended period of time now, I am beginning to appreciate the effectiveness of what has become a style and set of techniques that are--and must be--unique to the upper levels of the sport. Again, I am NOT NOT NOT saying no one does the classical things! I see that, too, but I also see the functionality even more. (Although I still don't understand why I don't see more jump-and-turn, with flying changes, in eventers' stadium warmups). But when it comes to dressage, if anyone would like to explore this, too, take a critical look at the dressage tests of Rolex 08, specifically what the judges rewarded and what they did not reward.

KBG Eventer

Nov. 23, 2008, 09:05 PM

...with related training methods so that young and/or green horses develop moving from from behind into the bit and the rider's hand? So much of the lower level tests seem to require a short frame and thus many eventing "dressage lessons" seem to focus on shorten the reins, leg, MORE leg...bending/flexing happens through pulling the horse's head and neck to the side...very different from what I read or have experienced in lessons from some dressage trainers. For example, all four lessons I've had with Andrew Harbison have focused on getting greenie Rasta to give the middle of his rib cage through leg yielding into the outside rein while keeping the hind end coming forward; then keeping him in shoulder fore on circles and down the long side - ended up EVERY time with a relaxed horse, VERY flexible - lifting his back, and we did shorten the rein, inch by inch with very little resistance.

Watched a dressage lesson yesterday afternoon with an eventing pro that was quite the opposite and very disappointing.

Just wondering...

I think there should pretty much be one scale for both things.

And it is interesting because I kind of feel like I have seen a bit more of dressage riders cramming their horses (which I think is what you were talking about?) then eventers. There are definitely different opinions on things. I have heard some dressage trainers say stretching is a reward for the horse after you get them very much over their back and in some cases (depending on the horse) a bit deep, and you have to do that to ensure the horse is stretching correctly and not just flat and the forehand. I use stretching a lot in lessons with my event trainer before, and I see benefits from both. Stretching and throwing a bunch of different exercises and lateral work before seems to get him loose and listening to me, and then I can build up to have him rounder and do some new or harder things.

achcosuva

Nov. 23, 2008, 11:40 PM

This is something I've mulled over quite a lot, so I'm going to indulge in a bit of public stream-of-consciousness writing which I'm not asking anyone to actually wade through in its entirety!

pwynnnorman - I did read it in its entirety and found your post quite interesting. Your comparisons of dressage and h/j to event horses really makes me wonder how viable it is to have a horse that competes in two (or all!) of the three disciplines. I know some people use the same horse for all, but even the same rider for all three (competitively) seems like taking two steps forward and one step back every time you switch competitions.

lstevenson

Nov. 24, 2008, 12:10 AM

...bending/flexing happens through pulling the horse's head and neck to the side....

There are plenty of bad dressage trainers in both the eventing and the dressage world, unfortunately. Sounds like maybe you saw one of them. ;)

I just got back from teaching a clinic, and as per usual (because there is always at least one rider at every clinc I do) there was a rider who told me she was taught to pull the neck from side to side repeatedly to "supple him" from a respected dressage trainer. And the really sad thing is that many riders seem to like this because after all of this extreme neck bending, the horse tends to "keep his head down." :no:

I find it so frustrating that so many seem to teach things like this, and even more frustrating that so many riders seem to buy into it.

Ajierene

Nov. 24, 2008, 05:30 AM

There are plenty of bad dressage trainers in both the eventing and the dressage world, unfortunately. Sounds like maybe you saw one of them. ;)

I just got back from teaching a clinic, and as per usual (because there is always at least one rider at every clinc I do) there was a rider who told me she was taught to pull the neck from side to side repeatedly to "supple him" from a respected dressage trainer. And the really sad thing is that many riders seem to like this because after all of this extreme neck bending, the horse tends to "keep his head down." :no:

I find it so frustrating that so many seem to teach things like this, and even more frustrating that so many riders seem to buy into it.

Can you clarify what the specific issues you see with this are? It needs to be done correctly, but bending and flexing are a part of dressage training, in my opinion. It is not just turning a horse's head, but making sure they are bending in that direction through their body. Is it the students that just turn the horse's head around without asking for a bend through the body that trouble you or is it all aspects of this form of training?

RunForIt

Nov. 24, 2008, 07:51 AM

PWynn,
Thanks for the thoughtful reply that has given reason to look at this issue from a different perspective. At the same time, its the "At the start of the lesson, before any warmup except trotting a few simple circles, the rider was told to put the horse's nose on the verticle and demand that it stay there from the very first step it took out of the halt through every step at every gait thereafter." and suppling by taking the head and neck to the side that remain questions for me.

No doubt it works for some horses, but having experienced both for my little short coupled guy, I'll take the methods Andrew is teaching me. Here's why. With the supple by bending the neck, taking my hand toward my hip, and putting his head on the verticle approach, Rasta does what's asked of him, but has always required SOOOO much leg and hand to keep him coming forward. He'd give in a few strides, sometimes an entire circle or sometimes the entire arena, but.... I've had the same shorten the reins approach happen in lessons with dressage trainers and event trainers.

fast forward to just getting fit again lessons with Andrew in September and October ( Rasta hurt a suspensory early summer) - we just keep asking little horse to step up and into the outside rein by changing his balance just a bit with a few steps of leg yield, sometimes taking my hand softly just out to the side, but never ever a pull - simply a soft feel, certainly never pulling back toward my hip, and before long, horse is relaxed, and trotting around on outside rein, CARRYING HIMSELF! THAT was the "aha" moment for me. By the end of the lessons the reins are where they would be in a test, and my inside leg is reminding him (A LOT the second day) where HIS inside leg should be going, but the feel is completely different.

I suppose what I'm saying is that hopefully, event trainers develop a deeper and wider range of exercises that can relax and develop the back and hind end of a horse while still developing the parts that get the jumping jobs done. I for one, will never compete above Training and quite frankly, do expect for my horse to be able to help me learn to ride well on the flat. Maybe I'm living in a fantasy world. Am planning on going down to Aiken over the winter (the closest thing to "fantasy world") just to watch the BNTs and BNRs...and maybe ask some questions.

Dawnd

Nov. 24, 2008, 07:54 AM

I've got years to let their musculature develop the strength, coordination and suppleness it needs to be all that and expressive, too.

I think that this might play into it.

I don't think (though I could be wrong) that event riders look at the dressage development as a lifelong endeavor as the classical rider does. It's just the means to the end - moving up the next level. ??

I could be entirely wrong, though.

Jleegriffith

Nov. 24, 2008, 07:57 AM

I believe this is something that I have been struggling with over the past few years. I tend to have a string of green ottb's and my method of choice has always been to teach them to stretch over the back long and low to build the muscles and develop strength. I rode them forward to the hand and focuses on moving the ribcage to supple the horse. I felt like they were soft and supple but I was on a much longer rein.

In the past year or two I have been riding with more eventing based instructors and I have to say the methods are quite different in my opinion. I was told that you must first teach your horse to accept the contact and that long and low only taught them to go on the forehand and they weren't truly accepting the contact. My lessons became more based on shorter reins and focusing on the hind end coming under. Riding the trot much slower to the point we incorporated a lot of half steps and in and out of the different tempos in the trot. We did a lot of lateral work on the sides and on the circles using shoulder fore, shoulder in, haunches in and out. It was all about moving the horses hind end under them all the time. The shorter reins was such a struggle for me because I was not used to the horse being on the shorter rein but I was not pulling I was just asking them to come into a different frame. If they got to low I was to put both legs on and ask them to come up. Lots and lots of transitions in and out of the gaits.

I mulled them both over because it was so different from what I had been doing but I kept on with riding with the shorter reins and working more on the slower gaits to develop the strength behind and found that my horses did get more consistent in the bridle and start to accept the contact better. I could still stretch them but I was riding the more uphill and the balance seemed better. I was not in the mouth or flexing them side to side but the overall balance was so much more uphill and instead of riding them low and long they were at least level. They were more put together and I could ride them forward but I could also collect it all together.

In a recent clinic we had a dressage lesson with an upper level dressage rider and the focus in that lesson on my 4yr was again shorter reins making him accept the contact. Regardless of where his head went I was to maintain the shorter reins and keep the leg on. This lesson was much more focused on forward. Forward in and out of the gaits to the point I felt like my horse was running and a bit downhill. He got really heavy in my hands and I was told it didn't matter they eventually will learn to carry themselves.

All different methods and you will find so many different ways of getting to the end result. I am lucky to have access to many good event riders, straight dressage riders and h/j riders within a 3hr area but almost all of them have different methods. Confusing..yes it can be but I have just tried to learn and apply what seems to work the best for each horse.

Lisa Cook

Nov. 24, 2008, 08:04 AM

I would guess that the differences in instruction that you have experienced are not attributable so much as to "eventing" dressage vs "straight" dressage, but more likely due to a good instructor vs. a bad instructor.

The worse instructor I've ever seen, in terms of crank 'n spank/cramming the horse into a false frame is strictly a dressage rider - she wouldn't event if her life depended upon it.

And I've seen some eventing instructors who use a very correct approach in their dressage.

Good and bad exist in all disciplines, for sure.

RunForIt

Nov. 24, 2008, 08:06 AM

Thanks, JLGriffith,

The key for me is to know my horse. As he gets stronger and more supple, I think all the approaches you described will be helpful for him. I've got to work on strengthening his hind end with hill work and raised poles AND keeping him supple. Rasta is short coupled and will use that to avoid the hind end work. Thanks for the "here's my thoughts on this..." post; I always keep them.

Happy Thanksgiving!

Fence2Fence

Nov. 24, 2008, 08:14 AM

Ajierene, I think lstevenson is referring to seesawing.

This has been quite awhile ago, but I remember watching a lesson where (under a different instructor) the rider was instructed to seesaw to get the horse's head down. The horse was so conditioned to this method that even when the rider kept her hands still, the horse wagged his mouth back and forth. I can only guess at the years of training it would take to resolve that problem.

I read Wyn's post too and as always, I think she has some of the most thought provoking insights.

I've mentioned this before in other topics, but I briefly rode with someone (dressage person, not eventer) who was focused on having the horse on the vertical at all times. My cute little pocket pony told us in very clear terms where we could shove those training methods.

The ulr eventer that I've been taking jumping lessons from is now helping me with my dressage work. Never focuses on the position of the head except when the bend is wrong, and the focus is on exercises that help him work evenly from behind.

I posted a similar question as to RunForIt's a couple months ago. I think the training scale is the same.

Jleegriffith

Nov. 24, 2008, 08:19 AM

I would agree with Lisa on that! I don't think shorter reins necessarily means you are cranking them in but shorter reins do mean your horse can only reach to the end of the rein length you are giving to them. I have some horses that are downhill and if I don't restrict the rein length and ride them uphill they would happily go long and low but are they really on the contact? Probably not it is just easier for them.

I have one straight dressage instructor that is very similar to one of my eventing instructors in the believe that you ride the hind end with the shorter rein using the slower gaits to develop strength behind and more connection.

Another straight dressage instructor I lessoned with last summer was very much of the belief of riding the neck down and out and the gaits forward.

Junior, my conn/tb, has a short back and is very short all over. The two instructors have very opposite beliefs on how to ride him. I am talking completely opposite. The above event and straight dressage instructor believe he tries to rush and that his front legs move faster than his hind end so he is just taking short quick steps. They think he does not truly accept the contact and when he is nervous he gets short in the neck and behind the bit. He can curl with no contact at all. We work on shorter reins riding him into the contact but much slower almost half steps in and out of the gaits so he has to slow down and push from behind. As he starts to carry weight behind his stride then becomes longer. We do a lot of work laterally on the circle using my leg to move him around. He is such a hot horse he is great at convincing you to take the leg off b/c when you touch him he hollows and runs. With the shorter rein and slower steps he becomes more relaxed and more rideable.

The other instructor believes my horse has a short neck and needs to be ridden more down and out to make his neck look longer and allow him to relax. She wants him to go more forward and reach more into the contact. All instructors believe when he gets tight and short the method to unlock him is to ask him to move laterally which engages the hind end.

Which works better- well both work in my opinion but the shorter reins/slower steps allows him to become more rideable and he carries more weight behind. He has to accept that the contact and my leg more there than in the other longer rein/ more forward approach. When he does get tense and short I can deal with it quicker than if I am on the longer rein and more forward approach.

RunForIt

Nov. 24, 2008, 09:19 AM

Thanks to all of you for this discussion - hope it continues. Its when we talk that my own perspectives and insights become bigger and "smarter". :yes: Due to the different ideas shared here I realize this isn't an "either- or" kind of thing but rather "WHY" an exercise may be used with horses...probably more up to me to ask "why" if its not put out there in the first place. Also up to me to advocate for my horse by knowing him and where he is in his training... :cool:

bornfreenowexpensive

Nov. 24, 2008, 09:42 AM

Ajierene

Nov. 24, 2008, 09:44 AM

Ajierene, I think lstevenson is referring to seesawing.

Yeah - see sawing is never good!

I agree that there are different training methods, but I think it is a disservice to the horse to say they cannot be competitive in straight dressage because they are an event horse.

What I hear and see mostly are eventing 'suffering' through dressage to 'get to the fun stuff'. This leads them to not take it as seriously and not really ask their horse to truly be through, use their hind end - basically do correct dressage.

bornfreenowexpensive

Nov. 24, 2008, 09:49 AM

.

What I hear and see mostly are eventing 'suffering' through dressage to 'get to the fun stuff'. This leads them to not take it as seriously and not really ask their horse to truly be through, use their hind end - basically do correct dressage.

True that you will hear many event riders say that sort of thing...but just because the dressage isn't someone's fav. phase doesn't mean that they do not take it seriously or practice hard for it (or know a whole hell of a lot about riding correct dressage). After all...to be competitive, you do need to do well in that phase. It is just that we get far more enjoyment out of running xc (and often our horses do not care to be in the white box either). If we got that same level of enjoyment from just doing dressage....well then we would probably just be doing dressage.

purplnurpl

Nov. 24, 2008, 09:49 AM

True dressage and eventing dressage have the same goal in mind. Developing the horse through gymnastic exercise.

Giraffe syndrome is found in both disciplines, but in contrast to Wynn, I see it as a danger for a horse to jump in a fixed frame.

I was really surprised last spring when I ventured out of area and watched some A level competition. The number of horses that actually used themselves properly were slim.

The ability to use the neck and lift the shoulder properly can save an accident from occurring.
With a fixed frame the muscles and movement at the base of the neck and through the back are shut down.
Very scary for me as a rider and I see this style as evolution at its worst.

Horses that are trained in such a way usually don’t stay competitive after 3rd or 4th level.
Hence the reason eventers get away with it on the flat, and are lucky if they get away with it o/f.

RunForIt

Nov. 24, 2008, 10:08 AM

There's a maxim in "smart, thoughtful" educational lines of thinking that may speak to and shed light on our discussion..."don't send a test out to do a curriculum's job". In public education, standardized testing has been the curriculum for far, far too many kids - I teach away at what I know good research and theory has shown kids CAN do and STILL score well on spring testing with just a week of prep for how to think through what the test is asking them.

Maybe the "tests" in eventing - the dressage tests are the focus for many trainers, so they teach to the test. :confused:

bornfreenowexpensive

Nov. 24, 2008, 10:34 AM

Maybe the "tests" in eventing - the dressage tests are the focus for many trainers, so they teach to the test. :confused:

Could be...but that hasn't been my experience. I think some of it also has to do with the type of horse we are sitting on. Sorry to say but two of my mares are quite difficult to ride in dressage...they would never be just dressage horses...but they are what I want to sit on for xc. I think the hard thing is that event horses have to split their focus between so many things (conditioning, stadium jumping, xc and dressage).

kdow

Nov. 24, 2008, 11:12 AM

I think that this might play into it.

I don't think (though I could be wrong) that event riders look at the dressage development as a lifelong endeavor as the classical rider does. It's just the means to the end - moving up the next level. ??

I could be entirely wrong, though.

I wonder if fitness does play a part in it- not that event riders regard dressage as a means to an end, necessarily, but just that doing dressage 'properly' DOES require the horse spend some time building himself up in the right muscles, and while a dressage rider can spend years gradually building a horse up for that and *only* that task, an event rider has to balance getting the horse fit for dressage, actually practicing dressage, getting the horse conditioned for eventing, actually practicing jumping (stadium and xc) and that's a lot of stuff to be trying to get to come together all at the same time.

I don't know that it's necessarily impossible- I come from the dressage world and not eventing, but my view on lower level dressage has always been that it develops the horse to simply use his body better at *all* tasks you might ask of him because it develops balance and muscle/body control- but I can see how you could easily have problems if the person teaching dressage (as an eventing trainer or a dressage trainer) doesn't actually properly understand what's going on in the various dressage movements in terms of how the horse SHOULD be using his body, and so doesn't place enough emphasis on if the horse is fit enough to do what's being asked the correct way, so long as it looks 'okay'.

(If that is the case, I wonder if it could be a contributing factor to why some horses don't seem to think much of dressage- I'd imagine it'd be pretty physically uncomfortable to be asked to do a lot of dressage work if you haven't been properly built up to do it, even if you're quite fit for something else. So on top of perhaps being just not their thing- if they're more into running and jumping- the poor horse is actually getting negative reinforcement every time they have to do dressage work, because it's physically uncomfortable/painful.)

I have to admit, coming from dressage, I'm not sure why there's so much emphasis on rein length being talked about- rein length for me always seemed to mostly be a function of where the horse was holding his head- as he carried himself more from behind, the head came up and so you'd have to shorten your reins to maintain contact- but the position change of the head came first.

In addition, going in a more collected fashion vs long and low was a question of what you were trying to do with the horse, not contradictory training styles. (I.e. if he needed to stretch out and relax, you did long and low work. If you'd been doing a bunch of more collected work, you did some long and low to give the horse a break. After a bit, you could ask him to come back up for a bit more collected work.)

I admit that I don't know much about eventing at the moment, though (I'm hoping to learn) so perhaps there's something about the jumping/eventing style of riding I'm not getting? :)

pwynnnorman

Nov. 24, 2008, 11:23 AM

Junior, my conn/tb, has a short back and is very short all over. The two instructors have very opposite beliefs on how to ride him. I am talking completely opposite. The above event and straight dressage instructor believe he tries to rush and that his front legs move faster than his hind end so he is just taking short quick steps. They think he does not truly accept the contact and when he is nervous he gets short in the neck and behind the bit. He can curl with no contact at all. We work on shorter reins riding him into the contact but much slower almost half steps in and out of the gaits so he has to slow down and push from behind. As he starts to carry weight behind his stride then becomes longer. We do a lot of work laterally on the circle using my leg to move him around. He is such a hot horse he is great at convincing you to take the leg off b/c when you touch him he hollows and runs. With the shorter rein and slower steps he becomes more relaxed and more rideable.

The other instructor believes my horse has a short neck and needs to be ridden more down and out to make his neck look longer and allow him to relax. She wants him to go more forward and reach more into the contact. All instructors believe when he gets tight and short the method to unlock him is to ask him to move laterally which engages the hind end.

Which works better- well both work in my opinion but the shorter reins/slower steps allows him to become more rideable and he carries more weight behind. He has to accept that the contact and my leg more there than in the other longer rein/ more forward approach. When he does get tense and short I can deal with it quicker than if I am on the longer rein and more forward approach.

Wow, that is so Kevvie.

I'm learning so much from this thread! Thanks, OP, for starting it.

The "shorter rein" concept was not one solidified in my mind, but it is rapidly becoming so. Wouldn't you say that's somewhat "new," though? Any oldsters here who can provide a history on it?

canyonoak

Nov. 24, 2008, 11:53 AM

I think the problems being discussed here are a result of too many "trainers" and "instructors" with limited background teaching off their limited knowledge/experience.

The reality is, whatever job the horse is being asked to do in performance, there is a need to work other muscles and other balance/rhythm in training. I don't mean cross-training, although that should be included.

I mean--ALL performance horse need to use their backs, need to learn to stay connected, need to learn to keep their hind end engine revving and available.

The balance of an event horse obviously should never reach the collection of an upper-level dressage horse, that would be useless on a course, as pwynn and others have pointed out.

BUT, in conditioning and schooling, that event horse should indeed learn to stretch over its topline precisely because its back will otherwise get sore and the danger of kissing spine become greater, as the ligaments remain unused and weak.

Bobthehorse

Nov. 24, 2008, 12:05 PM

There are plenty of bad dressage trainers in both the eventing and the dressage world, unfortunately. Sounds like maybe you saw one of them. ;)

I just got back from teaching a clinic, and as per usual (because there is always at least one rider at every clinc I do) there was a rider who told me she was taught to pull the neck from side to side repeatedly to "supple him" from a respected dressage trainer. And the really sad thing is that many riders seem to like this because after all of this extreme neck bending, the horse tends to "keep his head down." :no:

I find it so frustrating that so many seem to teach things like this, and even more frustrating that so many riders seem to buy into it.

My horse was with one of these "trainers" before I got him. Being one of those surly, stubborn and opinionated type of horses, this didnt sit too well with him, and it was about 2 years before he was agreeable to dressage. He would just anticipate that contact meant someone was going to rip his mouth off and jab him with big spurs. Of course, he still isnt a huge fan, but he understands that if he is good, he gets to stop, and he works best under a low low pressure type of regime, of asking but not demanding. :) And he wins dressage often enough these days. Eventers, eh? Haha such characters.

magnolia73

Nov. 24, 2008, 12:24 PM

I have to admit, coming from dressage, I'm not sure why there's so much emphasis on rein length being talked about- rein length for me always seemed to mostly be a function of where the horse was holding his head- as he carried himself more from behind, the head came up and so you'd have to shorten your reins to maintain contact- but the position change of the head came first.

Coming from hunters (as probably a lot of eventers do) we don't ride with as much contact, so some of the rein length you hear is simply people like me who given no instruction ridie with no contact.

I think you have to consider that people are learning and many times there is a lot of tension at a competition. I think people get caught up and end up doing things like not going forward and playing see saw just to get through the test- things they don't do at home. And eventers have a whole barrel of stuff to think about- that coop on XC, memorizing the jumper course. People plan warm ups badly. Footing catches folks off guard.

I've ridden with many eventers now- from local people to people at upper levels. For flat work, I have never ONCE been encouraged to seesaw, or do anything but go forward and use bend. A lot of focus on giving with the reins and using outside rein and inside leg. I think seesawing is something that isn't taught (by good trainers)- but perhaps we stumble upon it on our own (unfortunately). I know I get frustrated and start grabbing that inside rein and get my horses head down for two steps.... then I remember- oh wait- forward into a giving hand- and move on from there. But you know- in the pressure of competition, maybe we don't trust being forward and giving with our rein and get tense and seesaw and put our untaught bad habits on display.

kdow

Nov. 24, 2008, 05:20 PM

Coming from hunters (as probably a lot of eventers do) we don't ride with as much contact, so some of the rein length you hear is simply people like me who given no instruction ridie with no contact.

I've ridden with many eventers now- from local people to people at upper levels. For flat work, I have never ONCE been encouraged to seesaw, or do anything but go forward and use bend. A lot of focus on giving with the reins and using outside rein and inside leg. I think seesawing is something that isn't taught (by good trainers)- but perhaps we stumble upon it on our own (unfortunately). I know I get frustrated and start grabbing that inside rein and get my horses head down for two steps.... then I remember- oh wait- forward into a giving hand- and move on from there. But you know- in the pressure of competition, maybe we don't trust being forward and giving with our rein and get tense and seesaw and put our untaught bad habits on display.

The thing re: hunters not keeping contact all the time does explain some of it- though I would probably warn against thinking of it in terms of rein-length or shortening the reins if I was teaching simply because thinking in terms of rein length and 'setting the head position' is a great way to get into thinking of things backwards- head first, then hind- when it SHOULD be hind then head.

Mind, it's totally unfair to eventers to say that focusing on headset and seesawing and that kind of thing is an eventing problem- it turns up in dressage ALL the time, and I think it's just a problem for anyone being introduced to dressage- there are an awful lot of people out there who claim to be teaching dressage and yet wouldn't know classical dressage if it came up and bit them. But often they can get their horses to do flashy things, so they seem like they must know what they're doing.

As far as it being a bad habit which comes up in competition settings- the annoying answer there is probably 'practice more at home' so doing it right is the more natural thing for you AND the horse. ;)

eventer_mi

Nov. 24, 2008, 05:48 PM

I think Denny can chime in on this one, as I watched a lesson he was teaching yesterday to an Advanced level rider (VERY experienced!) on her new young, tense horse. The whole emphasis was on relaxation - Denny kept on talking about how we first have to get into the horse's mind and put them in a frame where they're relaxed and receptive, and by the end of the lesson, although it took 40 minutes to get to the point of where the young one was walking and trotting in a long, low frame, reaching for the contact (rather than curling behind it), it was lovely work indeed.

I used to take lessons from some very well-known BN eventers in this area. Both of the BN eventers, as well as a BN dressage trainer, emphasized short reins, lots of giving and taking on the inside rein, and really riding him UP into the bridle, and no long and low unless it was done correctly, which it most often wasn't (according to them). Hands were to be carried low and wide, and I was even told to "pin his head down" in the trot-canter transition. It rapidly became very aggressive hand-riding, much to my dismay, and I was unhappy with it, but I didn't know any better, as these people were four-star calibre. My Paint, as a result, would break his neck behind the poll and offer a false frame. I never got a score lower than 35 due to tension in the neck and him not truly coming over the back.

Fast forward to this summer, where I switched over to my current instructor. After just a short period of time working with her, the emphasis being on riding the horse forward to your hand, getting them to swing and move forward, and NO FIDDLING WITH THE REINS! After a break from June to October, I entered my Paint in an HT and got a 31, with four 8s. I would have scored lower, but I made some stupid geometry mistakes in the test. The judge even remarked "very attractive, talented horse". I won the HT on my dressage score, and Sam is a very happy horse indeed.

This method has also helped me with my young one, who has a strong tendency to curl behind the bit at every opportunity. He looks the part, when he's not curling - he's very uphill and extremely attractive, but I shudder to think of how he'd be if he were ridden the way I was taught in the past. We now have him reaching for the bit and going long and low, but he's still not totally ready to be picked completely up and ridden in a higher frame - his contact is still not 100% consistent. As Denny said yesterday (and I believe he was quoting Ingrid Klimke), "contact is something the horse takes, and not something you do to the horse" (paraphrased poorly, but you get the drift). He mentioned that too many people are in too much of a hurry, and they DO go through the motions of getting their horses relaxed, but when it doesn't happen on their time frame, they shrug it off and say, "well, I need to work on shoulder-in now" and proceed with a tense horse (see Denny, I WAS listening!).

I will never, ever go back to the way I was riding before. The horses are so much happier when I'm not hand-riding them and forcing the issue of "being on the bit". I'm not exhausted after my lesson, the way I was when I was taking from the other trainers. Your biceps should NOT hurt after you have a flat lesson!

Unfortunately, I think the OP is right - there is far too much hand-riding and cramming the horse into a frame these days, and not enough emphasis on classical dressage. I think that's the case with both pure dressage and eventing dressage - people are in too much of a hurry. I think, too, that with the influx of WBs in the sport, we can get away with these methods because of the conformation of the horses involved - if you try and cram a typical TB in a frame, the tension is obvious, but a WB (like my young one) is naturally built with a great, arching neck and uphill carriage, and we can get away with "faking it" better with these types.

Just my two cents.

lstevenson

Nov. 25, 2008, 12:47 AM

Can you clarify what the specific issues you see with this are? It needs to be done correctly, but bending and flexing are a part of dressage training, in my opinion. It is not just turning a horse's head, but making sure they are bending in that direction through their body. Is it the students that just turn the horse's head around without asking for a bend through the body that trouble you or is it all aspects of this form of training?

The problem is the focus on the neck. Correct bending is even through the body, not more in the neck. And flexing is at the poll.

The horse's neck is already one of the most flexible parts of its body. Even the stiffest horse can reach around and bite a fly on his side.

The riders who bend the horse's neck more than they bend the horse's body are disconnecting the hindquarters from the connection. And usually making the horse fall through its outside shoulder.

And yes, Fence2fence is right that see sawing is a common activity of these "neck benders". Bending the neck back and forth. They say they do it to "supple" the horse, but the real reason that they do it is that it serves to make the horse in a sense "broken" directly in front of the withers, which helps to prevent the horse from using his head, neck, and jaw against the rider's hand.

Whereas in a horse that is CORRECTLY on the aids, the area directly in front of the withers is very stable. When correct, the horse will not come against the rider's hand, not because of something the rider does with his hand, but because the horse is correct behind!!

lstevenson

Nov. 25, 2008, 12:57 AM

the emphasis being on riding the horse forward to your hand, getting them to swing and move forward, and NO FIDDLING WITH THE REINS!

AMEN!

Although I personally see a lot more hand riding with straight dressage riders than eventers. I think this is where the event trainers who do this get it from. Their dressage trainers!

kdow

Nov. 25, 2008, 01:14 AM

Small off-shoot question for this thread: If you, as a rider, were interested in the classical form of dressage (as opposed to other forms of dressage, not in exclusion of other forms of riding), would you tend towards competing in eventing, or purely dressage?

I ask because one troubling thing in upper level dressage (like the recent Olympics) is how few of the upper level horses are actually going CORRECTLY, and that's one of the things making me personally more interested in eventing from a competitive standpoint- I have no interest in learning to do what is apparently considered 'competitive dressage' at the upper levels of the sport (and thus is trickling down to the lower levels.) By contrast, much of eventing is exempt from subjective-judging silliness- you don't get extra points XC if your horse is a flashy jumper- and so it seems like it'd ultimately be much less annoying to participate in as a competitor.

kdow

Nov. 25, 2008, 01:18 AM

AMEN!

Although I personally see a lot more hand riding with straight dressage riders than eventers. I think this is where the event trainers who do this get it from. Their dressage trainers!

This is what I'd suspect, too. I mean, as an eventer, you're not necessarily going to be aware of the finer points of dressage principles when you go looking for a trainer- that's why you need a trainer, in part!- so if you happen to be unlucky and end up with a moron 'dressage' trainer, how are you supposed to know that's not the right way to be doing things?

That said, I wonder if there's less tolerance in eventing for some of the silliness, since there IS the requirement that there be a strong partnership for other elements of the event. I mean, I know that if I was pissing my horse off as much as some 'dressage' riders seem to, I wouldn't want to trust him to get me over a solid log! I think some of them would be well within their rights to throw the 'dressage' rider off into a tree. :)

Ajierene

Nov. 25, 2008, 05:41 AM

The problem is the focus on the neck. Correct bending is even through the body, not more in the neck. And flexing is at the poll.

The horse's neck is already one of the most flexible parts of its body. Even the stiffest horse can reach around and bite a fly on his side.

The riders who bend the horse's neck more than they bend the horse's body are disconnecting the hindquarters from the connection. And usually making the horse fall through its outside shoulder.

And yes, Fence2fence is right that see sawing is a common activity of these "neck benders". Bending the neck back and forth. They say they do it to "supple" the horse, but the real reason that they do it is that it serves to make the horse in a sense "broken" directly in front of the withers, which helps to prevent the horse from using his head, neck, and jaw against the rider's hand.

Whereas in a horse that is CORRECTLY on the aids, the area directly in front of the withers is very stable. When correct, the horse will not come against the rider's hand, not because of something the rider does with his hand, but because the horse is correct behind!!

I understand what you are saying and do agree that just bending the neck won't do much other than stretch the neck muscles.

As far a dressage goes - I agree with those that have stated there is incorrect dressage in eventing and straight dressage training. There are some upper level riders that I would not take a dressage lesson from, and those that I would. I interviewed for a job with a former Olympic rider and just could not stand the way she wanted me to ride or how stiff the horse she had me on was.

I also don't like to watch Grand Prix dressage anymore because the riding/training just does not seem correct - the horses do not look as spectacular as they used to.

So, to answer kdow's question - I like to event because I love to jump. I do love classical dressage also and like to challenge myself and my horse with straight dressage competitions. So to answer your question - currently I do both, eventing more than dressage, though.

Jane Savoie

Nov. 25, 2008, 07:14 AM

Hi RunForIt,
If you talk to eventing Olympians like Mara Depuy-Dean (US) or Kelli Temple (Canada), they will confirm that they train according to the Training Scale. The reason they are so successful on the flat is that they always work on their flatwork (not just on the days when they're in the dressage arena).

Even when they are doing conditioning work or warming up for a jumping school, they focus on rhythm, suppleness, connection, impulsion, straightness, and eventually collection. They use the training scale because they want their horses relaxed, obedient, supple, straight, able to lengthen and shorten their frames and strides, turn handily, and rock back onto their hindquarters in order to successfully negotiate all 3 phases.

They don't take short-cuts, and have created many beautifully developed horses. Because their horses have been ridden from back to front, they have a lovely topline...not the hollow back, dip in front of the withers, and overly developed underneck that you see on so many horses that have been ridden front to back and "see-sawed" so that the "pose" on the bit (with flexed jaws and noses on the vertical but no connection over the back).

RiverBendPol

Nov. 25, 2008, 07:31 AM

mademoiselle

Nov. 25, 2008, 07:59 AM

I agree that it seems that steadinees (head in one position without really paying attention if the back is moving and lifting up) seems to be rewarded in eventing.

I show both in dressage and eventing and my horse always scores higher in dressage.

I also agree that I have been watching a lot of dressage ULR and I don't always agree with the training methods. Actually my favorite place to be to watch is the Rolex warm-up (you can always see the tests on the DVD), but it's a great insight.

As far as shortening the reins or not, I think that when your horse has unsderstood the 'forward', concept, you need to teach them to accept the contact. Which shouldn't be done by pulling their head into their chest, but you can't ride them on a soft rein right away all the time. It's going to take some tuning and trials for them to get the concept.

One of my horses is one of these fakers. He looks naturally in a beautiful 3rd level dressage frame :lol::lol::lol: but the booger never uses himself. I have been battling with the contact thing for a while now. So, I went from no contact to hanging on my hands and now we are trying to find a happy medium (I'm getting there).

I agree that the short coupled horses are a nightmare. Nothing like riding a block. I find that the best way to deal with those is to try to break them in 3 parts (head neck, body and butt). I do this with some lateral work, circles, bending, oustide bending, everything that can make them to unlock. By doing that it helps them to supple and work in longer frame. One of my horses is a cube 16h high, 16h long, 16h wide, and to make things worst he is a stallion. He is a frame (no way he can strech his neck enough to get out of the frame :D:eek::lol:) and many people would be delighted, but I know that he is not working properly. So, I'm working on opening up and then we will go back in a frame, fo now, it's a no-no.

Fence2Fence

Nov. 25, 2008, 08:04 AM

Small off-shoot question for this thread: If you, as a rider, were interested in the classical form of dressage (as opposed to other forms of dressage, not in exclusion of other forms of riding), would you tend towards competing in eventing, or purely dressage?

Like someone else posted, I love to run and jump...but also how intellectually challenging it is to understand and prepare for three different phases while balancing the horse management and care aspect of it. But, I also love dressage for the emotional rewards of riding a happy, forward horse. (*Sigh* When my inept self can.) I read enthusiastically, and am a complete dork about studying it.

But, I'm not sure it matters if a person elects to pursue dressage or eventing. Getting 'classical' training or just plain simple 'correct' training is the responsibility of the rider. Pick up magazines, books, DVDs to educate yourself and then stop and think about what your trainer is saying. And above all, listen to the horse. He should be happy at the end of the lesson too.

And Jane...thanks for joining us!

RunForIt

Nov. 25, 2008, 08:09 AM

Mary in Area 1

Nov. 25, 2008, 11:59 AM

RunForIt

Nov. 25, 2008, 12:59 PM

Jane, I'm so glad you posted here about Mara and Kelly. I don't agree that eventing dressage is different, or SHOULD be different, bacause I see the wonderful results of classical, correct training everyday. With Jane Hamlin teaching here, there are NO shortcuts, NO fixation of the head and neck. We have a barn full of eventers AND dressage riders and our lessons are virtually the same: Purity of gaits, rhythm and relaxation, suppleness, connection, etc. The training scale works for everyone.

for many years at the North Georgia HTs and later at Poplar Place, I had the incredible good fortune to sit all day scribing (and chatting about stuff OTHER than dressage and horses :lol: ...books we'd read, "wish our DEAR hubbies WOULD...) for Jane Hamlin. Lucky you to be within distance of her for lessons. I've aften asked if she could do one day clinics before she was to scribe at Poplar ... please wish her well from "Lynda - her scribe from Georgia!" :D :cool:

Jane Savoie

Nov. 25, 2008, 01:25 PM

Hi Mary,
Yes, I am incredibly proud of Jane Hamlin. As a rider, trainer, instructor, judge, and competitor, she epitomizes correct training. We have developed at least 2 dozen horses together over our more than 25 year relationship. I have seen her take tense, insecure horses with less than average gaits and turn them into lovely partners and successful athletes.

You are indeed lucky to have such a quality trainer (and person!) in your barn. :):):)
Jane

pwynnnorman

Nov. 25, 2008, 03:22 PM

Jane, thanks so much for posting here! I'd love to hear your impressions of the "short rein" concept.

RunForIt

Nov. 25, 2008, 03:28 PM

Jane, I'm so glad you posted here about Mara and Kelly. I don't agree that eventing dressage is different, or SHOULD be different, bacause I see the wonderful results of classical, correct training everyday. With Jane Hamlin teaching here, there are NO shortcuts, NO fixation of the head and neck. We have a barn full of eventers AND dressage riders and our lessons are virtually the same: Purity of gaits, rhythm and relaxation, suppleness, connection, etc. The training scale works for everyone.

Jane is reason enough to move NORTH - (but who am I kidding? - I'm ready for 50 degree highs again! ) Jane is such a lovely, fun person, and certainly one that could help the eventing community learn the long-term value of "the training scale". Year before last she had at least one she was competing at Prelim...so this ain't someone preaching from the sidelines! :D :lol: :cool: AND, this is someone who the eventing organizers PAY to judge their shows and serve as President of the Grounds Committee - yes, make sure everything goes right on XC and in stadium....

pwynnnorman

Nov. 25, 2008, 03:35 PM

pwynnnorman - I did read it in its entirety and found your post quite interesting. Your comparisons of dressage and h/j to event horses really makes me wonder how viable it is to have a horse that competes in two (or all!) of the three disciplines. I know some people use the same horse for all, but even the same rider for all three (competitively) seems like taking two steps forward and one step back every time you switch competitions.

BTW, archcosuva, there have been a couple of stallions who have done FEI level dressage and grand prix show jumping. The only event horse I can think of off hand (although I could imagine a few others--like Winsome Adante) was...ugh! I can't remember now! On (or around) the 1984 Olympic team. Known/noted for warming up in piaffe. Gray, maybe? Drat! No, I don't think it was Ben Arthur... Oh, and I did read of one BN horse in the UK who retired and is now up to the FEI levels.

Oh, well. Now, going from UL dressage to something UL o/f -- THAT seems like the least likely, doncha think? Only one I can think of even attempting all three is, I think, A Fine Romance. I think he's been ridden beyond the average level in hunters, jumpers and eventing. Can't recall offhand about dressage. I think I'll trot over to the Breeders Forum to find out.

Oh, wait! I bet Windfall, if he felt like it, could do an FEI level dressage test.

JWB

Nov. 25, 2008, 04:52 PM

Roemer was another that went from GP Jumper to FEI dressage horse.

Correct training is correct training, no matter what discipline you compete in. I learned SO much about a balance seat from a 14.3 hand reining horse. I worked on an Arabian farm for years and though I never ventured over into the world of saddle seat, I took some training gems from that discipline.

No matter what the discipline there are good and bad out there - the hard part is knowing the difference.

I think where eventing can fall short is that a horse with improper dressage CAN be relatively successfull. Although it's harder at the low levels to win without good dressage, once you're at the upper levels, a mediocre dressage test can still be a win if you jump clean enough and other people make mistakes- SO people can have some success and gain credibility even if their dressage skills are NOT up to par.

Proper dressage is never going to harm an eventer but there are a lot of horses out there doing incorrect dressage because they can get away with it in this sport. It doesn't make it right though, and I hate to see it labled 'eventing dressage' because it's incorrect dressage no matter what the sport is. The only difference is that for a straight dressage rider, they'll get crucified by the judges for taking such short cuts and have no success. The event rider may get crucified by the judge but jump clean and still finish respectably...

flyingchange

Nov. 25, 2008, 07:56 PM

This has been such a great thread. Thank you RunForIt for starting it. It has me doing a good bit of thinking.

thanks

LLDM

Nov. 25, 2008, 08:01 PM

My question is this: Do many of these trainers not know the training scale or do they simply fail to invest the time in it. This applies to both dressage and eventing trainers.

SCFarm

RunForIt

Nov. 25, 2008, 08:22 PM

My question is this: Do many of these trainers not know the training scale or do they simply fail to invest the time in it. This applies to both dressage and eventing trainers.

SCFarm

Big question..one I have wondered about for a long, long time...hence this thread. Maybe one inch forward here, but its a real inch in a forward direction, and I predict it won't go anywhere but forward - for the horses and for us.

Please keep asking your question...maybe of the ICP?

pwynnnorman

Nov. 26, 2008, 06:46 AM

Please keep asking your question...maybe of the ICP?

Oh, good idea.

The thing about this issue is that some of us (PM'ing) are wondering is if there might be safety issues involved in the "fixed topline."

I'm enjoying the heck out of old eventing videos I recently got from a COTHer and I can't help but notice the much, much more frequent, LONGER releases on eventers in the early 90s compared to now (er, except Mary King, whose release has gotten longer rather than shorter over the years!).

Some of those videos show horses really screw up but stay on their feet--could it be because they are accustomed to using their backs in the "traditional" way over fences? I don't know. I'm speculating here. It's just that I sense, as I said before, that today's event horse is using its back over jumps in a different way that it did before. I wonder if that "short rein" concept is also having an influence. I do not remember any kind of emphasis on that length of rein ten or twenty years ago. Could it be that that rein tends to produce a more rigid state such that when flexibility is needed, it may be slow coming -- too slow to prevent a fall, perhaps?

Again, I dunno. I'm just wonderin'. I do think, however, that there are more fixed toplines than not today. I think I saw a lot of JWB's "getting away with it" on the Rolex '08 tape.

flyingchange

Nov. 26, 2008, 10:57 AM

You know, that is a very interesting observation Pwynn. Makes me think of my last Lucinda clinic where she was hypothesizing about the current fixation on dressage in eventing and potential negative impact on the horse's XC.

One thing that she noted tht has stuck with me is the importance of hacking out and trailriding our eventers on along rein. And not "in a frame" and working out "dressagey" stuff. She asked: If horses are not allowed to hack out over uneven terrain on a long rein, how will they learn to balance themsevels?

I have ridden with several trainers - mostly eventing - who have been adamant that I shorten my reins up from halt. Get the horse on the bit at the halt and then walk on. Short reins, giving inside rein. Horse must come up to the short rein and he must give. Not really a lesson in harmony, but more of dictating the frame. These trainers' strategies do work well for a lot of people I suppose because a lot of their students do very well in the dressage. It really doesn't work for my horse or for me though.

I will be honest here and say that I have sort of given up on working with any of the well known trainers around here on my dressage.

Oddly and randomly enough, I have gotten some of the best advice from a buyer's trainer when they were looking at my sale horse recently. The trainer was commeting on what a great walk and canter my sale horse has, but that I need to lengthen the reins for him because at this stage "you don't want to mess with the walk." After talking to her I started riding the sale horse a little differently - with much more freedom in the bridle. The trainer rode the horse again when her client came out to take a second look at the horse, and she mentioned that he seemed to be moving even better this time.

In all my years of taking dressage lessons, I have never had anyone go over the dressage pyramid/training scale with me. I have had a few trainers quickly rattle off the scale with me, but nobody has ever been like - OK, we need to start at sqare one: rhythm and regularity. Then once we have the horse moving in a rhythmical, regular movement, we'll focus on loosening him up. THEN we'll talk about contact.

My lessons have ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS started out and been about "getting his head down." ALWAYS. From step one.

This is a lot of rambling and I'm tired so I'll stop. I guess my point is that I do think I see a theoretical correlation between riding on a very short rein and an issue with safety on XC. Of course, you need a short rein on XC, but you also need to know how to release - really release. And in dressage, if you are on a short rein, you shouldn't be holding the horse up - the horse should be light "in your hands." For me, personally, most of the trainers I've worked with have been OK with my horse feeling like a mack truck in my hands - as long as his head is down. And not knowing any better, I've followed this lead. And anytime I've tried to ride this horse "in a frame" to fences has been disastrous. Maybe that type of riding works with certain breeds, but not this one. No matter how strong and supple he is.

I'm rambling and will stop.

eventer_mi

Nov. 26, 2008, 11:12 AM

I think where eventing can fall short is that a horse with improper dressage CAN be relatively successfull. Although it's harder at the low levels to win without good dressage, once you're at the upper levels, a mediocre dressage test can still be a win if you jump clean enough and other people make mistakes- SO people can have some success and gain credibility even if their dressage skills are NOT up to par.

And, the two big problems that stem from that are that 1) the incorrect riding is actually being rewarded (those "perma-frames", as purplnurpl put it succintly in a past post), and once it's rewarded, even at the upper levels, you have trainers who 2) go on to teach this incorrect method of riding to their students, thereby perpetuating the problem. Argh.

magnolia73

Nov. 26, 2008, 01:02 PM

Fence2Fence

Nov. 26, 2008, 01:22 PM

Magnolia, is it this book? http://www.upress.virginia.edu/books/cronin.html

FC-- I've only had one lesson (dressage person--would like to go back but have trouble getting our schedules to match), where the training pyramid was discussed. Of the two lessons, we spent the entire time focusing on rhythm and relaxation. The relaxation was a natural result of rhythm. We spent the entire time counting the strides and honing in on getting the strides rhythmical throughout circles, serpentines, etc. I just thought I'd throw that out there...

RunForIt

Nov. 26, 2008, 01:34 PM

And, the two big problems that stem from that are that 1) the incorrect riding is actually being rewarded (those "perma-frames", as purplnurpl put it succintly in a past post), and once it's rewarded, even at the upper levels, you have trainers who 2) go on to teach this incorrect method of riding to their students, thereby perpetuating the problem. Argh.

"teach to the test" so to speak. The test becomes the curriculum in other words. Ok if you understand the theory that the curriculum is developed from and that underlies the test, and the different types of strategies that might get a pupil there...and if you're aware that you need to watch carefully so that you can adjust the strategy to what the pupil needs at that precise moment....AND are capable of doing all that in a way that increases both the understanding and the ability of the pupil - be it a kid or a horse and rider. Big shoes to fill if you're a trainer and have a knowledgeable consumer of your product.

In defense of the folks who are training and getting ribbons by cranking in the heads, false bending - its working....if "working" is defined as getting ribbons at the lower levels. And they are...these folks have to pay bills too. Just another thought...its all connected.

Which takes me back to my original question...is there a dressage training scale for eventing? Only now I'd revise it to read...Is there a published dressage training scale for eventing and is it a part of the ICP training?

Jleegriffith

Nov. 26, 2008, 01:56 PM

For the sake of discussion: some journals from lessons

Trainer 1-
One lesson writeup:
First up was Junior. He was a bit tense b/c the high winds were making the trees scrape the indoor and the mirrors were spooky. Kelly watched me warm up and then asked me what my normal routine was and how I decided what to focus on. I described that I normally work on getting him to stretch down and out because he has a short back and neck and when he gets tense he curls and feels tight. He's harder to bend to the right than the left. Hot and sensitive off the aids so I try to be soft and quiet. Described what I see as my main flaws..short arms so I don't keep elbows bent and don't sit up enough.

She agreed that my plan was correct based on his conformation and way of going. She liked his hind end and talked about how collection should be easy for him and that by getting him stronger behind would allow him to have more elevation and reach in front. Because he tends to be short strided we first worked laterally to relax him across the back and get him coming through the back. I would turn down the quarterlines and leg yeild to the wall. Or go down the wall and counterbend and then change the bend.

She had me change from riding him slower to riding him more forward because she wanted to use the forward energy to promote the stretch across the back. She talked a lot about keeping an active rein and never being afraid to talk to the horse with quick pulses of the hand. She said we can't beat them by pulling but we can beat them by being quick (basically quick finger action to soften the jaw). I think I was trying to be too quiet at home because once I started to play a bit more with the rein with soft squeezes he got much softer in his jaw.

He's the type that runs when he gets too much leg so we worked on stretching the right side. She said she is very much classical dressage inside leg to outside rein but if you don't have that established clearly then you need to make it work first. So she had me ride with my right hand towards my knee playing keeping the inside rein active with pulses and then on the open sides of the circle use the inside leg to slide his hind end over. The outside rein was very loose. When we went left I did a slight counterbend again using the outside to push into that rein. We both agreed the problem was a weak right hind (both my horses) so by working them this way they will eventually get stronger and then you can ride inside leg to outside rein.

She thought that working Junior starting collection would help strenghten the muscles right behind the saddle which would allow him to carry himself better as he got stronger. We did half steps at the trot going between the walk and trot and making him do the half steps and carry himself. He was super.

The canter has always been his weaker gait as he wants to dive on the forehand a bit and not carry his weight behind. I also need to do a better job of sitting up. His canter was really good today but he has a hard time holding it when it's correct because he's not strong enough so I only made him canter 1/2 a circle or sometimes a whole circle but when I felt him struggle go right back to the trot. She had me really sitting deeper and bringing back my shoulder blades. Going right the right rein was kept very active with super quick pulses to keep him soft in the jaw and the outside rein was soft. As he softened I would then use the leg to ask him to push over. Going left we did slightly square turns in the canter.

I was very pleased with Junior and felt that I rode well. She commented that I needed to stretch up a bit more in the saddle but had very good instincts and a very good leg. My hands were good just to keep working on bending the elbow and don't be afraid to communicate more with the mouth.

Another lesson:
Junior- exellent lesson and feeling wow! Started off with lateral work both leg yielding to the wall and away from the wall. Then did some spiral circles really focusing on me holding the right rein and being soft on the left. When going right really make sure to keep the connection on the right and use the inside leg to ask him to slide over into the soft outside rein. The the left a slight counterbend or just make sure I was aware of the right rein and again outside leg to keep his body straight. He is a very wiggly horse who is so sensitive everywhere that I have to be very tactful.

We talked a lot about his neck in this lesson and the tempo of the trot. He has a short neck with the tendency to get short when he's tense she wants to really do as much pushing the neck out as possible but talked about how he first must take a hold so I have something to push to. This means when he is tensing I should actually take a hold almost like a side rein (opposite of what people tend to want to do) because he's shortened and tense he's not coming through the back but when I feel it just hold until I feel him take a hold and then push the hands out to him. She described it like a broomstick that you were pushing forward. With him we have an issue in transitions because he gets tense and shortens so taking a hold until I felt him pushing to the contact really helped.

We discussed the temp with him and she joked he has three trots..which he does. The pony trot, small horse trot and big horse trot. When he's tense and short you only get the fast running trot where he moves like a pony. She is really having me not worry about the quickness because right now he has to find his balance and get comfortable with the bigger trot so don't half halt unless he's getting to low in the bridle. When he's over tempo just resist the need to touch anything and sit taller and let him try to get comfortable with the power he is producing from behind. She likes the way he's built and believes he just doesn't know what to do with the reach he has from behind so that is why he runs. She wanted me to keep playing with the half steps when he got the tendency to get rushy meaning I would almost walk but not to get him to really use the hind end.

The canter was simply unbelievable today. His canter has always been tough and he can really hollow and tense but I had a few strides both directions that really made her happy and felt amazing to me. I worked hard at really turning my shoulders and pressing the shoulder blades back. She didn't want me to hold when he got short in the canter (stopped the hind leg from coming forward and he simply has to much power) so instead she wanted me to play. Don't be afraid to supple the neck a bit left and then a bit right. The key to him is unlocking him in the base of the neck so the withers can come up. Man, the withers were coming up and his back was round. Exciting stuff!!!!

I think he was proud of himself and she thought he had the ability to do quite well at the upper levels of dressage which is funny to me but I guess he could. She believes he has a super hind leg and will only get better when he learns to carry himself. He should be able to piaffe and passage and he has good lateral work. I will keep working.

Trainer 2:
Lesson 1-
The main gist of the lesson was her getting to know the riders and horses. She watched Junior warm up and talked with me about him. She asked what I had been working on in my dressage lessons- lots of lateral work, a bit longer and lower frame to keep him from getting short and tense in the back. once he is relaxed allowing him to go more forward and me sitting up and keeping my elbows bent.

She watched me ride around at the w/t/c and then had me come in for a talk. She thought Junior was cute but I should be getting mid 20's on my dressage test. She saw a horse who was just pulling himself along instead of using his hind end. She did not think he was short in the neck but that he was just not carrying himself with power from behind.

Our lesson was based on a circle varying between 10 m-30 m. The mission was to make him work from behind. This started at the walk and she said he has a great walk but he tends to walk out of the contact. Slow the walk steps and just sit and wait with the hands. Use the lower leg to ask him to step into the contact but a bit of a blocking hand to say don't run from the contact. Watch that he doesn't bulge through the outside shoulder. Slow..slower..really slow. Good now see if I could let him go just a touch more forward and if he would stay. Take him back to slow when he rushes forward.

In the trot it was the same thing. The trot needs to be slow so that he pushes from behind. Shorten my reins about 2" keep the elbows bent and ask him to stay there. Don't hold but stay consistent and use the legs to ask him to push to the contact but the seat keeps the trot slow. Anytime he rushes ask for "trot in place" basically almost like a piaffe so that he realizes he can't rush away whenever things get hard. When he gets tense move him into the lateral work on the circle but keep the trot the same. Shoulder fore, haunches in, outside bend, inside bend but try to pick which one you need and when.

This sounds easy but let me tell you Junior was trying all sorts of evasions his butt was protesting the work. We would take a break and work again. I had to really focus on sitting up with elbows bent and keeping the reins shorter than what I am used to. My hands were held higher (for the elbow bend) She said it really isn't ideal to hold the hands that high but because of my short arms I needed to to create the bend. The horse will always go to the length of the rein so if I let the reins out he got low (I didn't feel like it was low but she did). She wanted him much more uphill and no real stretch but she explained it was because he was built uphill and I needed to stop worrying about making him short in the neck. By letting him go longer I was allowing him to stay on the forehand so he didn't have to use the hind end. I wasn't holding him with the shorter rein but I was making him have to change his balance point.

The hardest gait was the canter. She got on be about letting sloppy canter transitions happen. I must hold him to higher standards. Sit tall and inside leg to canter outside leg to support the body. Elevate, elevate and elevate more. Don't let him run and use my half halts but also soften so I give him the chance to stay there. If he doesn't do a canter on the spot and then allow him to go more forward but maintain the canter we are looking for. Junior was really struggling here and become tense. She had me doing shoulder fore in the canter and then haunches in to get him to soften but not give him the reins!!!! Wow, much harder than it should be.

Then we worked cantering through an exercise that she had set up with 9 canter poles keeping the canter the same. Then we began a little bit of jumping. Canter pole, vertical, canter pole, vertical and then more canter poles. He was excellent here and she noted he kept his balance better than she thought he would to the fences and the fences make him rock back.

Lesson 2:
Junior was first up and she already thought our flatwork was much improved (we learn fast). We did maybe fifteen minutes of flat really working on keeping the trot slow and me keeping my reins short so I could keep him in a better balance. Sit up and leg into the contact. Keep the half halts to keep asking him to sit a bit lower in behind. Anytime he got a bit stuck we went to the lateral work using shoulder in and haunches in to keep him soft and supple.

The biggest difference I felt was in the canter. Now that I understand how she wants me to ride him I have been able to get this great canter but I struggle with being quick enough to keep him from breaking with the extra collection. What seems to happen is when the inside hind leg really reaches under he struggles his balance and gets low in front and wants to break. I need to get faster and feeling this and apply the half halt and add leg to shift the balance up and back. He was much more rideable in the canter.

Next we went to work over the jumps. She yelled out me (not really yell but lecture maybe?) at letting him do whatever he wants just because we are jumping. If I don't have a good walk then I can't go to the trot. Don't let one bad transition happen. She said I feed him, take care of him and give him a good life. For 45 min a day he can give me good work. Be tougher and do not just let anything happen. Pay more attention to where he is at all times.

The first exercise was 9ft pole, double x-rail oxer, 9ft pole. She wanted to make sure I got there on a good step (just trotting). He kept wanting to swing his hauches right so I would shoulder in to keep him straight. When he swung his hauches he got quick so by keeping the haunches straight it made him stay even and slower. I felt like I was trotting so slow but the point was to make him stay in that trot and not change his rhythm at all. She said I was folding a bit too much and she just wanted me to think about staying centered and coming back up a bit quicker on the landing to make him balance up. She built the x-rail up until it was at the top of the standards so it was very steep and he was really working. Once we totally crashed it because he got to quick and got to close. He went but we knocked the whole jump down http://s4.images.proboards.com/shocked.gif She said that the execise really demanded a correct ride.

The next part was to put the x-rail together on a bending left line about seven strides to an oxer. I trotted in nice over the x-rail and jumped in the seven strides in a great balance and landed left and cantered off and it was super! She really loved it and remarked how great the balance was.

Now I was to jump the bending left line and then turn right go around the turn and then jump the vertical and go on a bending right line four strides to the oxer. On no, the turn right exposed some major issues which tend to be the inability to get him to bend right when jumping. He landed and darted off and tried dropping his shoulder and leaning in to the right. Shoulder in..get in the shoulder in. Trying..really trying. She has me keep cantering the circle and Junior is fighting so hard at this point and I am having the hardest time bending right. All I need to do is get the shoulder in but he does not want to use that inside hind. He requires a different ride at all four points of the circle because he is just using his shoulders to escape so I am trying to ride him straight and failing. I pull up to ask what I can do here because I was really working to make him move over and not having a lot of luck. She got on him and basically rode for about ten minutes working on this right canter.

A few discussions where that I am just not being tough enough. I need to kick him when he doesn't move off my leg. If I don't get the reaction I want then I need to tune up the response and then try to soften. I won't get anywhere with asking nicely because he is not respecting me. He is not truly into the connection. I need to work on establishing a better connection and stop letting him have so many evasions. Everytime, the work gets hard he pops a shoulder here there and everywhere. He kept rooting down with her as an evasion and she would really kick him for that. Rooting is unacceptable and that is one way he gets away from the connection. Don't let that happen. I need to learn to have more passive resistance so when he pulls I need to resist and add the leg. No bungee arms as she called it.

I really got a lot out of this lesson and one thing I am really noticing is that she is looking at the big picture. I am not a bad rider and my horse is not a bad horse but if I don't fix these things I will have holes. She said we both have the ability to jump the big fences but she is going to make us really good.

Her funniest remark was that she had no idea how I got around in dressage. He was really hard and had so many evasions she didn't know how I was capable of piloting him around?? Umm..I don't think he is that bad but I guess he is http://s4.images.proboards.com/embarassed.gif Apparently, he is really tough and I am just trying to stay soft and ride him nicely but I need ask him to step up to the plate. I am actually too quiet of a rider from what she has said as far as just staying soft and letting the horse go quietly. I need to ask more and expect more. More connection on the reins. Ride the horses in a more uphill balance (all of them) and stay more upright with my body and keep the elbows bent even during the passive resistance phase.

RunForIt

Nov. 26, 2008, 02:42 PM

For the sake of discussion: some journals from lessons...

...

Wow, Jess - that's all I can say - besides THANKS!!!!!...but I do have questions - will ad more as I get time to reread....have also had trainers ask for 1/2 steps with Rasta (but, even after I said he was very green , just learning, just coming back from...endless cycle in our case - trainer still asked for 1/2 steps first time with the horse - I'd think there needs to be more assessment of the horse before loading the hind end like this, though I do see the reasoning for using this with horses in work as you have them.)..got any more journals to post? I'm copying and pasting every single word!!!! :cool:

magnolia73

Nov. 26, 2008, 02:47 PM

Fence2Fence-
Yup- that's the book. A nice reference and framework. I like the focus on instilling calm and steady. ;) I don't know how relevant it is for dressage as he fully admits- classical dressage is a different end goal of very succinct communication, while we want the hunter jumper to be more apt to carry himself efficiently without much effort on our part.

Jleegriffith

Nov. 26, 2008, 07:23 PM

RunForIt

Nov. 26, 2008, 07:53 PM

Do I have more..oh you don't want to know how many I really have especially with all the different horses. It is an excellent way to look back at lessons and various rides. You can see the progress or go back to look at where an issue popped up.

It seems to me that even with my really greenies my set of instructors want to incorporate some slower trot but not to the degree we were doing with Junior who is built for it and strong enough to handle it. He also has a different set of issues which is that he wants to rush so it just gets him to think slower and wait for me rather then him running from every aid. It is demanding for them both physically and mentally but the hand is really not involved it is mostly just slow with your body. The difference it made in Junior was really cool. I could feel him lighten in the front and come under and then we would go forward again and just keep watching that balance. It made a big difference with the jumping as he was more able to load the hind end.

About to go out and feed last hay...the amazing thing to me is that you have the where-with-all AKA patience - to sit and write all that you do and STILL go about your life...I do it re: my students though, so maybe its similar. so much of what you wrote is familiar...thanks again - please post more lessons learned.

Happiest Thanksgiving in your new home...go take a walk out tonight and look at the stars ...its a great life we have. That part we definitely share! :D :cool:

kdow

Nov. 26, 2008, 09:12 PM

I have a book at home called "Training and Riding the American Sporthorse". I think it is an older book, and the focus is on HJ type stuff. The whole first chapter deals with dressage (classical) vs preparing a horse for a jumping type career, how the two are similar, and how the two can "clash".

...an emphasis on riding back to front. Some of the concepts are very different than dressage focus- for example, the focus on transitions is not about being super prompt and accurate, but staying relaxed. For the author, say going from canter to walk, it is better to have 2-3 steps of trot than a tense canter to walk with no trot steps.

(Trimmed original post up a bit to only the relevant bits.)

I'm not sure, coming from a dressage background, that I'd agree that a "tense canter to walk" transition is acceptable in dressage training, because as soon as the horse has any tension, he's much less able to be responsive and use his body properly- which is supposedly the goal of dressage.

Now, it may be that in the jumper world a relaxed canter-walk transition with a couple strides of trot is enough to get the job done, and so working with a jumper you might not continue working on that particular transition, whereas with dressage you'd want to continue to work with the horse and develop him so that he could do the canter-walk transition more precisely, but both transitions should place the emphasis on the horse remaining relaxed and responsive and forward.

I do think that the whole perma-frame notion probably IS having a negative effect on the jumping ability of the horses, though. If you take it to the extreme and look at the muscle development on upper level dressage horses who aren't being ridden properly rounded, the muscles which are worked most when the horse is in a fake frame (not actually stepping through from behind and using his body) are exactly the WRONG ones for the horse being able to balance himself properly and use his entire body when jumping or dealing with uneven terrain. And as muscle groups work against each other, the end result would be not only that your dressage isn't helping in the overall fitness of the horse, but that it may well actually be DETRIMENTAL to the overall fitness of the horse, because the correct muscles then need to be that much stronger to do the job plus resist the muscles which are incorrectly developed as a result of the perma-frame business.

By contrast, dressage ridden with the horse properly coming under himself and developing his balance and his ability to balance with a rider up there should in theory be developing a lot of the same muscles as would be needed in jumping/negotiating uneven terrain, so they should be complimentary activities- the strength from jumping and fitting up should help the horse in his dressage work, and the finer control from the dressage work should help the horse in jumping, particularly when something goes a bit wrong, so a small adjustment has to be made at the last minute.

(I should probably add that my dressage background is from a lesson barn run by an old school German trainer, who was firmly of the opinion that you had no business whatsoever jumping until you were quite solid at basic dressage, so my view of things might be skewed. :D )

FLeckenAwesome

Nov. 27, 2008, 02:42 AM

Jlee....

WOW!! junior is exactly like Fleck :)
seriously..the whole weak right hind, popping the shoulder...etc.

i have written journal entries too and they sound very similar!!

but... i have a big favor to ask!! if you are oh so bored one night...and want to email me all your Junior entries...that would be great!! it would be awesome to see how you worked him, so i could apply it to fleck. BUt... i know it's a huge favor, so only if you're really bored ;)

thanks for sharing though!!

unfortunately fleckers seems to be slightly lame now, so... ack!!! vet's coming friday :) keep your fingers crossed.

anyways...carry on :)

Jleegriffith

Nov. 27, 2008, 06:10 AM

RunForIt

Nov. 27, 2008, 06:17 AM

Junior is out with a fractured knee so no more journals for a while if ever but I have a lot stored up so I will send them to you and runforit. It is really interesting for me to read how different the entries are for each horse.

awwww, that's terrible about Junior. I'll be thinking about you. Had just emailed FleckenAwesome about you when I saw this post.
L.

BaroquePony

Nov. 27, 2008, 07:22 AM

Originally posted by kdow:

I do think that the whole perma-frame notion probably IS having a negative effect on the jumping ability of the horses, though. If you take it to the extreme and look at the muscle development on upper level dressage horses who aren't being ridden properly rounded, the muscles which are worked most when the horse is in a fake frame (not actually stepping through from behind and using his body) are exactly the WRONG ones for the horse being able to balance himself properly and use his entire body when jumping or dealing with uneven terrain. And as muscle groups work against each other, the end result would be not only that your dressage isn't helping in the overall fitness of the horse, but that it may well actually be DETRIMENTAL to the overall fitness of the horse, because the correct muscles then need to be that much stronger to do the job plus resist the muscles which are incorrectly developed as a result of the perma-frame business.

By contrast, dressage ridden with the horse properly coming under himself and developing his balance and his ability to balance with a rider up there should in theory be developing a lot of the same muscles as would be needed in jumping/negotiating uneven terrain, so they should be complimentary activities- the strength from jumping and fitting up should help the horse in his dressage work, and the finer control from the dressage work should help the horse in jumping, particularly when something goes a bit wrong, so a small adjustment has to be made at the last minute.

Agree 100% :yes:

FLeckenAwesome

Nov. 27, 2008, 09:30 AM

oh no!!! hope junior feels better soon!! and thanks :)

Happy Thanksgiving!!!! i'm thankful for such wonderful people and all this thought provoking and inspiring threads!!!!

purplnurpl

Nov. 27, 2008, 10:47 AM

You know, that is a very interesting observation Pwynn. Makes me think of my last Lucinda clinic where she was hypothesizing about the current fixation on dressage in eventing and potential negative impact on the horse's XC.

rolling my eyes. Thanks Wynn for restating the observation. I've been posting the same comments for a year now but I guess no one reads my posts.

I guess my point is that I do think I see a theoretical correlation between riding on a very short rein and an issue with safety on XC. Of course, you need a short rein on XC, but you also need to know how to release - really release.

There was a rider at the Olympics this year that rode the course on a loop. And the commentator commented on the soft ride, the fantastic rhythm of the horse and the great trust between horse and rider. Mary King rides on a loop. William Fox Pitt rides on a loop.
Just to name a few.

I think more then thinking 'short rein' it's more along the lines of what each particular horse needs. Training the horse to respond to body position is the way to go.

purplnurpl

Nov. 27, 2008, 10:52 AM

Oh, good idea.

The thing about this issue is that some of us (PM'ing) are wondering is if there might be safety issues involved in the "fixed topline."

I'm enjoying the heck out of old eventing videos I recently got from a COTHer and I can't help but notice the much, much more frequent, LONGER releases on eventers in the early 90s compared to now (er, except Mary King, whose release has gotten longer rather than shorter over the years!).

I'll paint a picture for everyone.

A horse running along with a fixed topline. Meaning head up, stuck at the base of the neck, back hollow. Because if his head is up and fixed at the wither/base of neck the back cannot in any way be soft.

If you get into a situation where the horse needs to jack it's front legs and shoulder up in a hurry how is it going to do that? The shoulder has no where to go because the neck is held short and the back muscles are disconnected. With a long neck they can further stretch their topline and make room for the shoulder to move upwards hence getting the front legs out of the way and avoiding a flip.

purplnurpl

Nov. 27, 2008, 11:00 AM

...with related training methods so that young and/or green horses develop moving from from behind into the bit and the rider's hand? So much of the lower level tests seem to require a short frame and thus many eventing "dressage lessons" seem to focus on shorten the reins, leg, MORE leg...bending/flexing happens through pulling the horse's head and neck to the side...very different from what I read or have experienced in lessons from some dressage trainers. For example, all four lessons I've had with Andrew Harbison have focused on getting greenie Rasta to give the middle of his rib cage through leg yielding into the outside rein while keeping the hind end coming forward; then keeping him in shoulder fore on circles and down the long side - ended up EVERY time with a relaxed horse, VERY flexible - lifting his back, and we did shorten the rein, inch by inch with very little resistance.
Watched a dressage lesson yesterday afternoon with an eventing pro that was quite the opposite and very disappointing.

Just wondering...

back to the OP, because face it, we are off topic - in a way.

I think what happens more then not is that the average rider starts out thinking that they need to ride on a long rein to 'warm the horse up'. When what is actually happening is that the horse is rolling around not using an ounce of it's body lolly gagging around the arena.
So instaed of having riders waste time, the coaches have them pick up the reins from the get go.

Warming up on a longer rein is only useful if the horse is actually using itself and working over his back. Many people have no clue what that is or means.

hence the short rein technique is born...?
And it goes down hill from there.

I bolded the above rule because I agree on this method 100%.

RunForIt

Nov. 27, 2008, 11:23 AM

back to the OP, because face it, we are off topic - in a way.

I think what happens more then not is that the average rider starts out thinking that they need to ride on a long rein to 'warm the horse up'. When what is actually happening is that the horse is rolling around not using an ounce of it's body lolly gagging around the arena.
So instaed of having riders waste time, the coaches have them pick up the reins from the get go.

Warming up on a longer rein is only useful if the horse is actually using itself and working over his back. Many people have no clue what that is or means.

hence the short rein technique is born...?
And it goes down hill from there.

I bolded the above rule because I agree on this method 100%.

I don't think that you're off topic at all - we're talking eventing here and surely dressage should be used to DEVELOP (word alone begs the realization that time is required - insisting on roundness "now" isn't developing - at least in the way I develop kids' understanding of a concept - a lot of time is required) the event horse's ability to jump. Instead, it seems as though the focus of eventing dressage is to develop the horse for the dressage test with the result of some horses, maybe many, not being able to jump well at times because of inappropriate muscle, flexibility, and strength development. Clearly not science, no data, just my thoughts...

Thanks for your posts along the way in this thread. They have helped others think and respond and it seems we've all come away from this discussion with a broader perspective. :cool: Hope to see you at PTF in March!
__________________

pwynnnorman

Nov. 27, 2008, 07:01 PM

I'll paint a picture for everyone.

A horse running along with a fixed topline. Meaning head up, stuck at the base of the neck, back hollow. Because if his head is up and fixed at the wither/base of neck the back cannot in any way be soft.

If you get into a situation where the horse needs to jack it's front legs and shoulder up in a hurry how is it going to do that? The shoulder has no where to go because the neck is held short and the back muscles are disconnected. With a long neck they can further stretch their topline and make room for the shoulder to move upwards hence getting the front legs out of the way and avoiding a flip.

Paint a picture? How about watch some moving ones: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTEcsYnMgnY&feature=related (do try to get to at least the 2:30 point -- or FF to 6:30, where there's an extreme 'short rein' example...but I don't see what alternatives the rider would have, given that particular horse...and it also shows how "possible" it is for event horses to use their toplines "differently," yet successfully). Your impressions?

BUT before you write, how about considering these, too (remarkably similar toplines to each other, not to the preceding): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgcbLUXeIgo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgcbLUXeIgo).

Gnep

Nov. 28, 2008, 11:51 AM

Basicly their is no eventing dressage training scale, the only differance to dreassage that eventing demands on colection are less per level

I am always troubled when I read or hear about methods to get the head down and talk about shorten your rains and the frame.

For me the scale of the Principles of Riding ( Volume 1 and 2 ) are the ones after which each horse should be trained.
Rhythm
Looseness
Contac and acceptance of the bit
Impulsion
Straightness
Collection

Collection is the very last point of the scale and can only be achieved if all the above in that order have been achieved.
And only than at the beginning of colection, can one start to shorten the frame, and the shortening of the frame should never be done just through the reins, it would mean loss of impulsion.

Sawing the head down with the reins, is putting the horse with force into a frame instead of riding the horse from behind into the rein, the movements will get flat, the back stiff, no action out of the hind, horse moves with the front first.

Equaly important, is to understand what the differant moves in Dressage mean, what is a loosening excerzise what is a colecting excerzise what is a colection excerzise, which should I do according to level of training my horse has achieved and in which gaits.

Equaly important, has the rider learned to ride and understand the level of the excercises.

I always recoment Volume 1 and 2, if one has read them and understood, than they can be a huge help in choosing a proper trainer, or if one audits a clinic to judge what is going on.

I personaly have always a problem with US trainers that are not schooled with the Principles as cornerstone, I do not understand what they are trying to tell me, they use lessons that are colected for colection, lossening for colecting and so on, they turn the training scale upside down.
I only go to trainers and take lessons, that have the Principles as their conerstone of education and than use those in their lessons.

purplnurpl

Nov. 28, 2008, 11:56 AM

Gnep

Nov. 28, 2008, 01:28 PM

compare the length of the reins of todays riders and the ones of the Sydney riders, what a change in style, and the one rider that let the reins slip had a not so nice jump

Blugal

Nov. 28, 2008, 02:57 PM

Ruthie Harbison was one of the only ones with a beautiful trip through the water, with the horse stretching its head and neck and lowering itself in. She had a soft allowing rein. Same thing to the corner out of the water.

I think part of the problem is the mind-numbing complexity of some of these complexes. Riders don't want to let the horses' heads go cause they probably won't make it through/around. Maybe because those horses *aren't* in tune - the perma-frame is also a problem on XC. Rather than guiding a horse who is supple and in tune to the aids (and schooled enough to be responsive to them) through things, it's rip/jerk/kick to each element?

Another observation: why do we have so many complexes that are completely unrewarding to the horse? They land off the final element (D? E? F? G?) and then are "rewarded" with a jerk in the teeth and kick in the ribs, to do the immediate 90-degree turn to continue on the track. Can the course-designers not give them a reward by having them land and gallop a few strides straight? Or have a gradual turn?

flyingchange

Nov. 28, 2008, 03:03 PM

Those are great videos pwynn. Thanks for posting them.

Purpl - I'm not really sure I understand your point(s) ... I don't think anybody disagrees with you that the type of ride you give depends on the horse, primarily. I think you may be taking my use of the term "short reins" out of context. Not really sure what you mean. Obviously, as you said and I think we all agree, there are a number of variables that go into what type of contact is appropriate and effective. Trying to type it all out or think it all out is not something I feel inclined to do. If you feel inclined to bash me or pick apart something else I have said - go for it. I don't really get the anger and hostility, but I'm not all that inclined to care either.

Anyway, I agree with Pwynn that the riders in those videos had no choice but to ride with a good bit of contact - I thought they all looked pretty darned good. As much as I have said about AT, I thought her ride on That's Smart was pretty much perfect. But maybe I'm missing something?

This discussion has really been great in helping point me in the right direction. It really comes at a good time for me. Thanks again RFI for starting it.

pwynnnorman

Nov. 28, 2008, 03:04 PM

Another observation: why do we have so many complexes that are completely unrewarding to the horse? They land off the final element (D? E? F? G?) and then are "rewarded" with a jerk in the teeth and kick in the ribs, to do the immediate 90-degree turn to continue on the track. Can the course-designers not give them a reward by having them land and gallop a few strides straight? Or have a gradual turn?

I don't think there are really "that" many, Blugal. Not that many jerk and pull complexes, that is. Maybe that many jerk and pull riders, however.

Again, watching various four-star and championship videos, I see a lot of complexes ridden forward and smooth, even ones with twisty tracks. I suspect course designers try hard to make even hard tracks flow. I can't imagine why they wouldn't, you know what I mean? So maybe sometimes it turns out to be rougher than intended because, perhaps, the complex didn't suit many of the entries' abilities to ride it--but I do like to think that an important part of course design is to at least try to reward, not punish. Sorry to sound so negative, but to my eyes, in that first video I posted, it's riders doing a lot of punishing, not the obstacles at all.

RunForIt

Nov. 28, 2008, 03:19 PM

re: videos (thanks, PWynn)

I saw some effective rides ridden with longer reins, I saw some effective LEGS staying put in the saddle with a longer rein when possibly more contact would have helped, I saw some horses on a loose rein that seemed to need more contact and more leg, I saw some horses being held with short reins that made it over the fence inverted (bless them), I saw some horses being held with a short rein that didn't need to be held and I thought what is missing in this otherwise terrific rider?. JMHO :)

All of this says to me that we're all learning but some sense of how the parts might produce a coherent whole would help us and the horses and the sport of eventing return to what it was formally known for - producing all round, knowledgeable, skilled horsemen (I am a dyed in the wool feminist , but horseman is the word that works for me) and horses.
Again JMHO :cool:

Blugal

Nov. 28, 2008, 03:36 PM

Just wanted to give my observations on this fascinating topic as well. (Long, sorry.)

A whole new world opened up for me approximately two summers ago when I finally felt a horse responding to seat, and only using reins and legs as guides rather than telling the horse what to do. (For the canter... I was relegated to the lunge line. It was so ingrained in me to DO too much, that I had my reins taken away.)

Now, I was surprised that it had taken so long for me to learn this. I'd been riding with the same coach for 8 years, and had gone up to 2* and through the ranks of Pony Club. She said my riding just hadn't been ready yet. First I'd needed the coordination of leg and hand. Timing. Then learning to get things done without major interference. Then giving lighter aids with seat and leg coordinated. *Then* I was ready, on a forgiving horse to try to feel the seat. It was pretty cool, to ask for trot by bringing the back up - but I was clumsy. After a while it got better.

Then one day she let me ride the Porsche horse - super-sensitive - it was a disaster. He got really confused by my aids screaming at him. I didn't realize how clumsy I was as a rider at that point. A few weeks later, after some practice, I tried him again. He really did feel like a sports car. And finally, I felt what a horse who'd been trained on the scale could do. He swung. He was light as a feather. If you so much as breathed, he would respond to it.

The scary thing? Jumping. I was scared to so much as breathe! Definitely not an amateur ride!

Anyway, back to how the horses were trained at this barn:

Last year I spent almost every day on a sensitive TB doing 20 metre circles. He wasn't exactly green, either! Every single day started with getting him to relax his back and topline, then get him supple longitudinally. We did all transitions on the circle, even in the same place if he'd stay more relaxed. Over and over and over.

I was so frustrated!!! I thought, "How will we ever do our dressage test (in two weeks, next week, tomorrow)?" The first two dressage tests weren't that good - we were both tense. Went home after both and didn't change a thing. 20 metre circles. I usually had to harrow the ring after riding him! Then one day - lightbulb! We were soft, relaxed, supple - and "movable". I could do a transition, I could change directions, I could even lose him for a second, but them get him back. My coach said "Aha! You're finally having an ongoing discussion with him." A couple weeks later, he put in a winning test - and I didn't feel the "cram and jam" at all - just a floating feeling of us both being supple and me tuning into him for the entire test. *That* feeling was worth it.

To relate this back to the discussion: the feeling I described above is what I want to achieve while jumping. If it comes, then you don't have a restrictive rein, because you are having the same discussion with the horse jumping as you did in dressage.

In fact, I had moments of this long before I got them in dressage - partly because my coach insisted on leaving them alone on XC as much as possible. Only discuss things when you need to. In other words - if you're galloping between jumps, get your butt out of the saddle, and give them a long rein. Otherwise you're tiring them out physically and mentally. If you want a supple jump into water, loosen the reins a couple strides out and do a "rise" as they take off - they'll stay much more supple instead of jumping against your hand and seat (the braced jump into water) - and land softly, ready for the next thing.

Interestingly, my coach felt that if you started young horses this way over drop fences, consistently letting them stretch and lower with a loose rein, and never landing on their backs (think about the shape of the horse on a flat landing when you sit in the saddle as they land) - that eventually you could add contact and they would maintain their shape, as it was ingrained. They were never expecting a tug in the teeth or a slap on the back - so say you are now riding at Prelim or Intermediate, and need to turn on landing or do a road-crossing or something - you can keep a light contact "dissusion" with them, which they will accept and listen to while still jumping roundly and using themselves properly. The exact thing we're trying to achieve with the dressage working together with the jumping.

Kairoshorses

Nov. 28, 2008, 04:44 PM

Wow, Blugal, thanks for sharing all of this. I want to be able to "converse" like that....!

Blugal

Nov. 28, 2008, 07:30 PM

pwynnnorman

Nov. 28, 2008, 07:56 PM

Pwynn, I partly agree and disagree with you. I agree that the riders can be the cause of "jerk and kick riding." But in the Australian video you posted, the water jump was set up so that the track immediately after it went 90 degrees to the right. To me, that is course design. The riders aren't going to make a "gentle curve" and waste 5 more strides than their competitors.

Also, I've walked some UL courses where the complexes have striding that is shorter than what I'd set in a standard stadium grid. I understand the need to slow down sometimes for complexes - but I can't see how going from 550+ mpm to 300 mpm to fit in that 1 stride in a 21-foot distance is encouraging flowing XC riding. Heck, I've purposely trotted one or two ridiculous combinations like this!

Yup, I agree and disagree with me, too.

In fact, you point out something I think is so concrete, I wish I understood why it isn't integrated into some course design standard. Why not formalize the standard that (at the upper levels at least) complexes always provide a fast route that is flowing and rewards forward riding? I dunno--maybe they do this already, but it seems so logical to me. So much of eventing involves progressive standards and expectations. So much already is dictated about what can and can't be done/used in course design. Why not also codify course "questions" that encourage the right things and discourage the wrong ones?

Again, I have no doubt that most designers do this. But I've said it before: it'd be so instructive to actually hear their thoughts, y'know? To see how what they designed asked (or attempted to ask) this or that question And then on top of that, to be able to recognize consistency between the phases such that the expectations in the dressage ring are indeed sought again on course. I know that is part and parcel with the philosophy behind the sport, but it just doesn't seem to get much attention any more--not like when we still bandied about the term "combined training."

Anyone else think that, like the dressage training scale that started this thread, the concept of "combined training" as the sport's backbone has kinda gotten divorced from the sport? Maybe its not such a good thing to be able to compete at an event every weekend? Maybe more should spend the occasional weekend at a straight dressage or jumper show so that when asked about the training scale, the answer isn't quite so likely to be just "Hmmmm. Good question!"

Again, I dunno. It'd be interesting to find out if adhering to the classic scale is rewarded by results. Brings to mind the heated debate we had about Bettina Hoy and over-doing it when it comes to dressage.

Gnep

Nov. 28, 2008, 08:23 PM

Jup Blue.
Especialy on the landing part of drops, I was taught years ago, to use your hands on the horses neck just in front of the saddle to soften the landing, dare me to hit the saddle with my ass, even on six feed drops and I was taught not to loose the reins, as much as it is done today, give to the stretch, but do not loose your position, this extrem laying back, which requieres the reins to be lost, was a absolute No No.

My aha thats how it works came during my dude time. If you sit up to 10 hours on a horse and cover between 50 to 100 miles a day, for 2 weeks in a row, you have to give the horse the rein, let it go, but a horse that is completly let gone is not a effective horse to carry weight, so a little tension is of advantage, but for the dear beast not the jerking , sawing, make it do action of the hands, 10 hours would drive it nuts.
Steady, quiet, consistened give and take, asking but not demanding was the trick

Even on our very long gallops, up to 10 miles ( very fit horses ) keeping the tension, not long reins, always galloping into them, kept my lead horses fresher, they had extra duty and needed their freshness. My lead horses would do 5000 miles a year, plus the extra Miles, figure about 7000 miles a year.
If I ride X-C, I never give my reins away, even at the very high speed gallops, I am softer for the stretch, but I still have a horse that gallops strongly into my reins. I have as in dressage a conection and ride the horse forward into the rains. I hate to see the pics were the reins are loose and the horse is just running, such a waste of energy.

That is one thing we are loosing, how to ride a horse at max acceleration and at max speeds.

I have some new students and next year thats what we are going to work on, on the track, it will be a eye opener, 1000 mpm with tight reins and a very light hand. I love those lessons, real aaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaaaaa moments.

lstevenson

Nov. 28, 2008, 11:08 PM

purplnurpl

Nov. 29, 2008, 11:43 AM

Those are great videos pwynn. Thanks for posting them.

I think you may be taking my use of the term "short reins" out of context. Not really sure what you mean.

I think you're probably right about this 100%. When I hear short reins I think of not a short rein that still allows the horse some freedom, but of a short rein that causes them to stick their poor necks straight up in the air and not use themselves properly.

If you feel inclined to bash me or pick apart something else I have said - go for it. I don't really get the anger and hostility, but I'm not all that inclined to care either.

I think the point of these discussions are to pick apart the topics. Otherwise why talk about them?
As for bashing I have no idea what you are talking about.
I actually think it's kind of funny that someone referred to me as anger and hostile.

purplnurpl

Nov. 29, 2008, 11:55 AM

compare the length of the reins of today's riders and the ones of the Sydney riders, what a change in style, and the one rider that let the reins slip had a not so nice jump

The videos were both from this year.
It's a change in style between countries.

There is another from Australia
http://vimeo.com/2339484

pwynnnorman

Nov. 29, 2008, 02:19 PM

I think you're probably right about this 100%. When I hear short reins I think of not a short rein that still allows the horse some freedom, but of a short rein that causes them to stick their poor necks straight up in the air and not use themselves properly.

I think the point of these discussions are to pick apart the topics. Otherwise why talk about them?
As for bashing I have no idea what you are talking about.
I actually think it's kind of funny that someone referred to me as anger and hostile.

I'm not sure I understand what is meant by short reins either.

BUT, just to try to see both sides, perhaps: Short reins can still involve long arms, right? In hunter ponies, you see some kids riding with very shot reins, but their hands are way out in front of them such that if they just drop them down to the crest, they've got a big loop in the reins and the pony can stretch its head and neck down as far as it needs to. [Here's a classic example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BCARc-fSnU&feature=related -- start at 1:26 to save time.]

There is another from Australia
http://vimeo.com/2339484 (http://vimeo.com/2339484)

Fun video to watch. Really nice image quality. Do the qualifying criteria for male Aussie eventers at the four-star level include having to be really cute?