Just how scary IS his conformation? Worried for his soundness... Edit: X-RAYS ADDED!

[downthecenterlinetheycome]

Hey COTHers,
I posted some conformation photos for critique on another BB, and got the response that my horse will never stay sound and doesn't have a long career ahead of him. He's a 6 year old Anglo Arab gelding and we do dressage. He's 14.3h. Is he really that screwed up? It's worrying me. I know his legs aren't great, but.. We're already having soundness issues on the RF. (Yes, I know it is an upright hoof. Yes, we are working on it.)

Him 2 years ago...
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w58/avalon_13/Avalon%20Conformation/DSC00112.jpg

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w58/avalon_13/Avalon%20Conformation/cutestanding.jpg

Him now. He's on a slight downhill slope/uneven ground. Sorry for the silhouettishness. (I know his left knee looks swollen and wonky, it was the ground, because it's the right knee that has issues.)

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll274/TheHorseOfCourse713/IMG_0240.jpg

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll274/TheHorseOfCourse713/IMG_0241.jpg

Thanks all.
Camille

[downthecenterlinetheycome]

Hey COTHers,
I posted some conformation photos for critique on another BB, and got the response that my horse will never stay sound and doesn't have a long career ahead of him. He's a 6 year old Anglo Arab gelding and we do dressage. He's 14.3h. Is he really that screwed up? It's worrying me. I know his legs aren't great, but.. We're already having soundness issues on the RF. (Yes, I know it is an upright hoof. Yes, we are working on it.)

Him 2 years ago...
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w58/avalon_13/Avalon%20Conformation/DSC00112.jpg

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w58/avalon_13/Avalon%20Conformation/cutestanding.jpg

Him now. He's on a slight downhill slope/uneven ground. Sorry for the silhouettishness. (I know his left knee looks swollen and wonky, it was the ground, because it's the right knee that has issues.)

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll274/TheHorseOfCourse713/IMG_0240.jpg

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll274/TheHorseOfCourse713/IMG_0241.jpg

He's the same horse in the Arab dressage thread, and I've also posted this in Off Course (hope that's OK.) Just a bit worried here.

Thanks all.
Camille

[sketcher]

Well, he looks bad in the pictures. He looks like he's got a fairly serious conformational issue in that right front leg in all of the photos. You never know, some horses that are trainwrecks can sometimes stay sound and some that look beautiful have all kinds of issues. I'd be very concerned though if he is already having issues and if he were my horse I probably would limit him to light trailriding in the hopes it would prolong his usefulness under saddle. I think the fact that one leg is more a problem will cause him to compensate in ways that will really seriously unbalance him.

[poltroon]

Well, it kind of depends on what "doing dressage" means to you, plus some luck.

I wouldn't buy him as a dressage prospect. But on the other hand, I would be looking for a horse with potential to do middle to upper level work.

I don't think training/first level work is damaging to a horse, at least, not any more damaging than any other kind of riding beyond walking trail rides. In his favor is that he is small, at 14.3, and not carrying as much mass on those legs as a 16+ hh WB. He may do OK.

Ride him, take care of him, enjoy him. When the vet/farrier run out of tricks... then you'll have to make a decision about his future.

[Kareen]

What kind of issue does he have at present. While he is certainly not 'correct' that doesn't necessarily mean he'll break down in short. There's no way to predict that. Many horses with 'issues' like these never know about them so I would try not to be discouraged by those comments. Good luck :)

[Kementari]

I'm far from being an expert, but the only thing that really worries me about his conformation is how back his is in that right knee.

Other things that jump out at me are that upright foot that you mentioned, a too-straight shoulder, and that he looks a bit camped out behind. I'm not sold on how the neck connects (at either end), but I'd want to see more pics with his head up before saying one way or the other on that (and that's not going to affect soundness, anyway).

Of all that, though, the knee is the only thing that would outright keep me from buying him for a lower-level horse. (If I was thinking upper-level, I'd want more angle on the shoulder, too - but I'd also want several more decades of lessons, so take that for what it's worth! :lol:) I don't see any way he's not going to end up arthritic (and sooner rather than later) there.

But he's a cute horse with a sweet expression (I do love AAs!), and he's yours for better or worse, so take him as far as he's happy to go! You might talk to your vet about doing Legend and/or Adequan as a preventative, and perhaps get baseline xrays now, so that you know in the future if anything is changing. And, heck, he's a horse: he could defy expectations and remain completely sound on it while he's competing 4th level at age 25! :winkgrin:

Neither of my horses has perfect conformation (show me one who does!), but since I'M not exactly Olympic material, either, I don't mind that they aren't. ;)

[MassageLady]

Before you can help him-he must be adjusted first. I can tell he has a problem in the hind end also, as well as the front. It might be compensation-but I feel his hips are most likely out. Find a good chiro-then and ONLY THEN, can you work the muscles correctly to help him stay sound. If it's been that long, you might want to get a massage therapist out first, to loosen up the tight muscles so the adjustment will go smoother.

[cheekyhorse]

I agree with Kareen. It depends on what the diagnosis is on that leg. What does your vet say about it? If it means anything to you, my mother rescued a very cute polish arab who was very emaciated last year. He has underlying issues with his stifles and if he is not worked regularly he will have bouts of 'locking up'. In his case, now that his weight is good and he is working on a regular basis, lower level dressage work has helped him immensley. I would never expect him to make it past training or first level work, and wouldn't demand it of him, but for 'lower level pleasure type riding' he is just fine.
Some major injuries in horses leave them useless, and some injuries leave them serviceably sound. With the latter, as long as there are no big expectations (such as showing or upper level work) for them, they are fine to do lower level work, and in a lot of cases it is good for them. With proper management he could have many good years left in him.
Good luck, and don't be too discouraged although I know it's hard with horses with problems. ;)

[slc2]

His 'serious conformational issue' with his right foreleg is that he is 'back at the knee'. Other than that, your horse has lovely conformation.

He does have a 'club foot' on his right front foot. However, he actually has a much more desirable depth of heel on that 'bad' foot than the left front, which is naturally more angled and has a lower heel though ideal would be a foot a little less 'boxy' than the right one and not quite as low as the left one. He has a very slight 'dish' to the front of his right front hoof.

While some farriers believe in 'fixing' and 'correcting' a club foot, it is debatable. OFten, the best approach is to simply balance the foot and allow the horse to have two somewhat different front feet, horses function rather well this way and in some cases it's the better choice.

The club foot may also be what a horse's foot does when one of his forelegs is a little bit back at the knee. How to work on those two things together and support your horse for the longest possible working life is something an expert can tell you.

Take your horse to a really top notch 'leg man' - not any ordinary vet, and get the horse evaluated. We have a super guy here who worked for years with all the race horses at the track in this area, both trotters and gallopers. Then he branched into sport horses - show jumpers and dressage horses. He is just an absolute whiz. He partners with a blacksmith in the area, and each horse he works with gets a 'shoeing prescription', and his farrier follows these directions religiously. Together, they prevent a lot of horses from getting hurt and keep a lot of horses comfortable and competing for a very long time. Find someone like that. Most horse people have a specialist that they go to for just leg problems. Ask around.

This 'back at the knee' thing means that if you were to gallop or jump, or do other speed work in which he tended to hyper-extend that leg, it would put a great deal of strain on his right foreleg, especially his knee.

It's called 'calf kneed' or 'back at the knee'. It's traditionally absolutely despised among those who select race horses, and disliked to a lesser degree, among hunters (I mean real hunters who gallop at speed cross country behind a pack of hounds), and eventers.

How much it really is a problem for dressage is something many people discuss.

What type of shoeing would best support him is something you should talk with not with your friends, bb people or a local farrier or vet, but a really good leg man.

A word about 'special shoes'. Some wierd, fancy shoe often is NOT the answer. Sometimes it's very slight adjustments and very UNdramatic changes that keep a horse sounder long term. It's best to not get real wild about some goofy thing, or get to be buddies with someone who thinks all leg problems should be treated by the same trim or the same shoes (or lack of shoes) - that's a dead giveaway they have no idea what they're talking about.

Hyper extend means that if yiou were to draw a straight line with a ruler on his right foreleg, you'd see the leg somewhat bows back when more strain or weight is put on it.

However, dressage is quite unlikely to cause him to hyper extend his knee, or to put a great deal of strain on his foreleg. In fact, correct dressage schooling should actually help him to be balanced, and put less weight and strain on his foreleg.

That said, no one has a crystal ball, and no one can tell you if a horse will last or not for absolute sure. THe most perfect looking horse could slip on a banana peel tomorrow and have to be put down with a compound fracture.

Once I have a horse, I make the best of what he can do, for however long that might be. It might be twenty years, or ten, or whatever.

He will tell me when he's gone as far as he can go, and then as a responsible owner I make sure he's in a situation that's right for him. All horses have some limitations, and all horses have a limited time as a sport horse and a point in time where they will need to do easier work or retire. The miles add up, and whatever things they have going on eventually catch up with them. Then it's my job as a responsible owner to be sure the horse is properly cared for.

Do what we all do with all our horses. We take good care of them, get them into good shape with consistent riding in a routine schedule (this is VERY important - muscles and tendons do the best job of supporting the horse's leg when they are CONDITIONED properly - with light, frequent work - and most people do the opposite - ride infrequently with a longer ride, rather than what's needed, shorter more frequent rides, and clever rides, with a slow warmup and frequent changes of direction), and we keep an eye on them, get them checked regularly by a vet, and look into any sorts of lameness or uneven steps immediately.

[greysandbays]

Well, he looks a little calf-kneed to me, particularly in the right front, especially in the photo with the blue car in the background. However, the camera is frequently a bald-faced liar. If he looks like that ALL THE TIME, that's one thing. If it's only sometimes, that's quite another. However, ideal would be for him to never do it.

If he IS calf-kneed, then I'm not sure I'd want to be messing with "working on" an upright hoof. Making the hoof less upright would increase the strain on the less-than-perfect knee. Leaving the hoof a little upright might not help, but it wouldn't INCREASE that strain either. His gait might not be perfectly symetrical, but if he's going to asymetrical, imight as well be because one leg is different rather than having one of them hurting.

There are "soundness issues" and there are "soundness issues". If he's "off" ALL THE TIME, that's one thing. If he's only "off" after extensive harder-than-usual work or unforgiving footing, that's another. (Though obviously, the ideal would be for him to not be "off" at all.)

If you go hunting for things NQR in any horse, you are most certainly going to find them. He does have a couple of things going for him: 1) He's only 14.3. He's probably never in his life going weigh much more than a thousand pounds. Much better outlook than if he was 16+ hands and weighing 1400#. 2) You're doing dressage instead of jumping or endurance racing. Much less impact on the front end.

The downside is he's only six and already appears to have "issues". But it's asking to be made look like a fool to look at a picture and declare a horse doomed to a career cut short by unsoundness. Some mighty horrendous examples of conformation keep going and going and going. And some darn near perfect ones break down real early. (I think it's a cosmic conspiracy to make "experts" look like idiots now and then -- helps keep em' humble.) :winkgrin:

[downthecenterlinetheycome]

Thanks. His current issue is he strides slightly shorter on that leg, and he puts it down toe first, it "pops" in the pastern, and comes down on the heel. Only at the walk. Footing depends. Hardly noticeable. It's a little better, sometimes invisible, after a trim that brings the heel down. He runs, he extends, he bucks, he plays in all footing. He attempts to jump things up to 5 feet. :lol: (Bad dressage horse! :winkgrin:) He's not sensitive to hoof testers, and overall has great feet. Foot X rays show a normal coffin bone. Vet says just keep working him, he doesn't know. (Done with that vet.)

So you think Chiro would help him? I've never done it, but it sounds interesting. How much is the average cost?

[greysandbays]

Thanks. His current issue is he strides slightly shorter on that leg, and he puts it down toe first, it "pops" in the pastern, and comes down on the heel. Only at the walk. Footing depends. Hardly noticeable. It's a little better, sometimes invisible, after a trim that brings the heel down. He runs, he extends, he bucks, he plays in all footing. He attempts to jump things up to 5 feet. :lol: (Bad dressage horse! :winkgrin:) He's not sensitive to hoof testers, and overall has great feet. Foot X rays show a normal coffin bone. Vet says just keep working him, he doesn't know. (Done with that vet.)

So you think Chiro would help him? I've never done it, but it sounds interesting. How much is the average cost?

Ahhh, so you are talking more about a mechanical issue than a soundness issue? In that case, disregard my thought about "he's only six and already has issues". I was thinking -- only six and already hurting; that's not so good.

But if he's not hurting, your consideration is not to minimize his discomfort, but to make sure anything you do to "fix" his nuisance mechanical issue does not end up inadvertantly causing unsoundness.

[slc2]

The horse has no 'issues' at all except they're working on evening up that right foot and this lady got the bejesus scared out of her by people on a bulletin board assuring her her horse is not long for this world. He has no soundness issue, no pain, and she has wonderful pictures of the horse doing lovely work in the arena.

[mbm]

as i said in your other thread - i love him! - ifou dont want him i would take him in a heart beat ;)

i think that confo wise he is *fine*... no horse is perfect and dressage is all about building the horses body in a manner that helps them overcome whatever flaws they have to help them be happy and productive and sound for years to come. if you train correctly dressage is basically therapy. if you train incorrectly you break the horse down - wheter or not they have perfect confo.

so find a good trainer and have fun!

and please: dont listen to those that try to smother your enthusiasm and belief in your horse and yourself.

i would find a good trainer asap and have them help you. no one on this board will be able to do more than give you vague generalities.

if you cant afford lessons try to find someone who will let you work them off.

[katarine]

He's a little tight over his loins but good stretching and a visit with a chiro would be nice. Around here that's $175+/- and/or a good massage therapist....that is about a buck a minute, one hour ...so 60 bucks, you'd want 2-3 visits to get a feel for where he consistently gets a little tight so you can stretch and massage and ride him to improve that.

OR- there are 2-3 really lovely, well illustrated books on massage and stretches that you could buy and apply yourself.

He's terribly cute, btw :) yeah he's calf kneed and tight over his loins, funky in the back end a little (which is common as water)...but not FUNKY in the back end ...some massage and stretching and good work, you'll be fine.

He's fine :)

[greysandbays]

... no horse is perfect and dressage is all about building the horses body in a manner that helps them overcome whatever flaws they have to help them be happy and productive and sound for years to come. if you train correctly dressage is basically therapy. if you train incorrectly you break the horse down - wheter or not they have perfect confo.


If this were true, there would be no need for invasive joint injections (be it "preventative", "maintenence", or "thereputic") to keep dressage horses going.

So I guess much of the world is doing improper dressage, or doing dressage with horses so limited that even "correct" dressage cannot help them, or somebody is selling fancy snake oil?

[Im Natives Last]

I had a horse with legs like that, and ringbone to boot (set), and hunted him for years. He was completly sound, no issues, into his mid 20s when he was kicked in the pasture and broke his leg. Everyone told me for years he was no good, wouldn't hold up, etc, but he did! He was a great jumper, too!

[Appsolute]

Honestly, as I had a TB with knee issues, this guy's knees scare the bejesus out of me.

Some horses overcome the worst of confo faults and live long sound lives, others feel the pain, wear and tear that the unevenness and weakness that is a result of his uneven front end. Calf knee / back at the knee is more serious then over at the knee.

And I would be careful not to address his foot unevenness too aggressively. He probably developed the high heel for a reason.

[mbm]

If this were true, there would be no need for invasive joint injections (be it "preventative", "maintenence", or "thereputic") to keep dressage horses going.

So I guess much of the world is doing improper dressage, or doing dressage with horses so limited that even "correct" dressage cannot help them, or somebody is selling fancy snake oil?


if i had to be injecting my horse to be able to ride it i would be taking a very long hard look at the trianing and the riding.

because dressage is, at its foundation, a program to build a better athlete. the training scale is an outline of how to build a horse that is able to carry a rider with ease and to perform at the appropriate level with out injury or duress.

sure all training isnt pretty, but if you are injuring the horse along the way something is wrong.

[siegi b.]

mbm - so I guess you don't ride your older horses? Or maybe you're not old enough yet to know that with age come aches and pains..... So why insist on being uncomfortable when there is something you can do about it?

[greysandbays]

if i had to be injecting my horse to be able to ride it i would be taking a very long hard look at the trianing and the riding.

because dressage is, at its foundation, a program to build a better athlete. the training scale is an outline of how to build a horse that is able to carry a rider with ease and to perform at the appropriate level with out injury or duress.

sure all training isnt pretty, but if you are injuring the horse along the way something is wrong.

I don't disagree with this. But I do disagree with your apparent premise that correct dressage is "therapy" and can help conformationally destined-to-be-undsound horses avoid that fate. It is no such thing. It maybe can be relied upon to not perpetuate unsoundness in an otherwise sturdy horse, but it can't be considered a way to give structurally unsound horses a Get Out Of Unsoundness Free card.

The whole essence of building an athlete involves ever-increasing levels of physical stress and having the body respond with increasing tolerance to that stress. Sometimes reaching a level of tolerance to even low-level stress isn't going to happen, and all the correct dressage in the world can't make it happen.

(Disclaimer to OP: this post is purely on the theoretical and may or may not have anything whatsoever to do with your particular horse.)

[Dazednconfused]

I think it would be a serious exaggeration to say he would never stay sound from a couple of photos. Have you ever looked at even some of the top aged horses in several disciplines? You won't find perfect conformation in the bunch. I'm a conformation junkie and find it fascinating - but after seeing 20 year old dead sound campaigners with legs that practically face different directions, two club feet and backs that makes them suitable as a "family horse" (i.e. the whole family could ride them at once!) - I put the stock it deserves into it. I feel it's largely how horses compensate for their faults in other areas, both physically and mentally and how they are maintained. I'm not saying people should disregard any conformational fault they find, but seriously, saying a horse will never stay sound from a few photos? That's a bit extreme. I wouldn't worry too much. He will tell you if there are problems.

I don't think a chiro or massage is the cure for everything or will absolutely work as MassageLady insists, but it might be helpful if you can find a good one and it's in the budget. Unfortunately, IME, it's unlikely that a single session or even two is all that helpful - one of those things that may need to be done on a regular basis to be of any benefit. Probably good to make sure his diet is good and your farrier is doing a good job with his feet, as well.

[EqTrainer]

I will answer this from a trimmers perspective rather than a trainers...

you need to have good film of that leg, from the ground up to the knee, and your vet and farrier need to be able to read them to understand how best to help your horse. If you do not have film and never have, then you are really in a crap shoot as to how to manage that foot and leg. That's not a good idea.

Back at the knee is one of the least desireable conformation faults that a horse can have. You need to be SURE that is is just a conformation fault and not a compensation for an injury to the knee or the shoulder or a club foot correction surgery gone bad/wrong. If you don't know, then you won't know how to manage/handle it. Under a certain set of circumstances you might lower the heel. Under others, you might pad it up. Under others, you might pad up the other leg.

A lot of club foot issues actually result from shoulder sling issues/injuries. The foot grows more upright to support the injury based on how the horse compensates for it. Figuring this stuff out is not simple, as you can imagine. It will require a vet who knows more than just the normal "block it and lets see where he's lame" protocol. A vet who works with a PT person might be your best bet.

At the end of the day, this might all be irrelevant anyway because a horse who is back at the knee is prone to serious injury that is not related to anything that has been done to it thru work, but just from living life with a leg that cannot stack correctly. Regardless you will have to be very thoughtful about his turnout, where he is ridden and what type of lifestyle he leads in general.

Otherwise I think he is built pretty well. I am sorry if this sounds doom and gloom but behind at the knee is not your garden variety conformation fault, like bench kneed for example, or even OVER at the knee, which actually is often heel soreness that has led to shortened tendons over time.

From a trainers perspective - I would decline to train this horse. I would feel uncomfortable asking him to do very much given what your other post said about his canter and how his foot lands. It would seem unfair to me. I am sure there are other trainers who would have no problem with it, so take it FWIW to you.

[Cherry]

Cute little horse! :yes: I don't see this horse's conformation being a problem so much as that one leg....

What's going on with this horse's right foot??? Have you ever had x-rays taken to determine whether this is a congenital clubfoot or an acquired one??? That would be a place to start.

And you say there is a problem with the right knee--no small wonder! Find another vet if you are unhappy about the current vet and find out what is going on in that knee!!!

I just had to have my mare put down a little over a month ago because she had no cartilage left in her knee--is that what you are up against??? If it is I wouldn't do dressage with this horse, I'd find him another profession (less strenous) and if I wanted to do dressage I'd probably find another horse better equipped for my hobby (assuming I had the money)....

I have a problem shooting horses up to keep them going because the owner doesn't want to part with them, or stop what they're doing with them (jumping, racing, etc.). No, I'm not against pain relief--I am against keeping a horse going long after it should be retired....

[downthecenterlinetheycome]

Oh, yes, the "lameness" is certainly a mechanical issue. I would never be working him if it were anything but! A little background on him:

I bought him when he was 4. He was back at the knee. His foot wasn't too bad, but was upright. My lovely (NOT!) farrier, I feel, is partially to blame for all this. He would do "surprise" trims when I wasn't scheduled, and then expect to be payed, or not trim when I was scheduled. He would never watch my horse move, or anything. I didn't know much, and everyone's horses were done by him. He trimmed every hoof the same. Over time Tango's hoof got more upright. These last 6 months is when that mechanical issue started to appear.

Got a new farrier, a barefoot trimmer (GOOD, not radical). She spent alot of time figuring him out. We got X rays. The vet, who really isn't too specialized (horses and goats), felt that he had a club foot. Farrier said, hell no he doesn't! (This is the same vet who put Tango down as a Sorrel QH on his health certificate... WTF?) Farrier felt that it had to do with the way the bones in his foot were interacting when he set his foot down - too complicated for me - but she found something about it in a (Pete Ramey?) hoof video, and a horse who did the same thing.

Then we had Lynn Seeley (Here's an article by him http://www.cavallo-inc.com/pdfs/CAVALLOBarefootTrim_002.pdf) come out to trim him. (He trained my farrier.) I wasn't there, so I don't know what was said, but he trimmed him anyhow. He says he recommends lowering the heel, and that that will somehow help the knee move forward.

So then my horse was shipped to me (I moved. He was shipped 20+ hrs), and I've just started riding him again.

Other background on him: He has a "grazer's foot". He does everything with his RF behind his LF. When he grazes it's way under his body with his LF way in front. Sometimes the heel's barely touching the ground. His right lead is worse than the left, significantly. It's easier for him to canter longer and more balanced with a lighter/smaller rider (which I am).

For the 2 years I had him before now he was turned out on 10 acres during the day, heavily sloped acres, and he would run downhill every day. He was stalled at night. Now he's in a 1/2 acre dirt paddock.

Wow, that was a novel. This thread is turning into more of a lameness examination. I WILL get a vet out to take X rays of his knee and everything ASAP. I'm looking for a new trimmer in the San Diego, CA area, and he's trimmed every 4 weeks.

Oh, and regarding the injections; what exactly do they DO? I mean, I know they lubricate the joint and all that, but isn't it kind of a quick fix? If he gets to the point where he needs injections to stay comfortable riding, I won't be riding him. Not trying to offend everyone; I want to understand.

[joiedevie99]

None of us can tell you from pictures how long your horse will stay sound and working. The knee troubles me the most. I would just stay on top of the knee. Chances are it can't handle as much stress as one set on properly, and it may develop arthritis and degenerate sooner than normal. Best to have a consult with a good vet and an x-ray of the knee and fetlock on that leg just to make sure everything is good right now (if you haven't done this already). Also, talk to the vet about what you can do in terms of maintenance: IA injection, Adequan or maybe just Cosequin in his feed.

ETA: posted at the same time. It sounds like you are on the right track getting his feet fixed up and getting a good vet or specialist to check out the x-rays, even if you have to have someone else take them and then mail them to a hospital for review.

[downthecenterlinetheycome]

Here's my reply from the thread I have on him in Off Course, so sorry if some points aren't relevant, but I think I covered a lot of ground. Thanks everyone for your opinions.

Oh, yes, the "lameness" is certainly a mechanical issue. I would never be working him if it were anything but! A little background on him:

I bought him when he was 4. He was back at the knee. His foot wasn't too bad, but was upright. My lovely (NOT!) farrier, I feel, is partially to blame for all this. He would do "surprise" trims when I wasn't scheduled, and then expect to be payed, or not trim when I was scheduled. He would never watch my horse move, or anything. I didn't know much, and everyone's horses were done by him. He trimmed every hoof the same. Over time Tango's hoof got more upright. These last 6 months is when that mechanical issue started to appear.

Got a new farrier, a barefoot trimmer (GOOD, not radical). She spent alot of time figuring him out. We got X rays. The vet, who really isn't too specialized (horses and goats), felt that he had a club foot. Farrier said, hell no he doesn't! (This is the same vet who put Tango down as a Sorrel QH on his health certificate... WTF?) Farrier felt that it had to do with the way the bones in his foot were interacting when he set his foot down - too complicated for me - but she found something about it in a (Pete Ramey?) hoof video, and a horse who did the same thing.

Then we had Lynn Seeley (Here's an article by him http://www.cavallo-inc.com/pdfs/CAVALLOBarefootTrim_002.pdf) come out to trim him. (He trained my farrier.) I wasn't there, so I don't know what was said, but he trimmed him anyhow. He says he recommends lowering the heel, and that that will somehow help the knee move forward.

So then my horse was shipped to me (I moved. He was shipped 20+ hrs), and I've just started riding him again.

Other background on him: He has a "grazer's foot". He does everything with his RF behind his LF. When he grazes it's way under his body with his LF way in front. Sometimes the heel's barely touching the ground. His right lead is worse than the left, significantly. It's easier for him to canter longer and more balanced with a lighter/smaller rider (which I am).

For the 2 years I had him before now he was turned out on 10 acres during the day, heavily sloped acres, and he would run downhill every day. He was stalled at night. Now he's in a 1/2 acre dirt paddock.

Wow, that was a novel. This thread is turning into more of a lameness examination. I WILL get a vet out to take X rays of his knee and everything ASAP.

[magnum]

What an adorable pony you have!

I would concue that he looks fine other than the R knee and the slightly clubby type of foot. I would get an Xray of the knee as a baseline and also to study the level of "behind." Sometimes, they can look worse but Xray better than what the eye sees externally.

FWIW - Vets will argue, but the knee isn't likely to be too bad for a "flat" working horse. It IS a problem for jumpers or extremely heavy use horses (endurance). But, dressage is about gettingthe horse off the forehand, so to take weight off of the leg, dressage would be an ideal Rx.

Along that line, the development to of his neck over the span of time reveals incorrect muscling from dressage. When a horse truly works "thru," the area just in front of the withers builds up (muscles up) and they fill in nicely there from raising that area up and rounding correctly into the hand. This horse is getting more muscling (or weight?) in the middle of the neck. This often happens if a horse is ridden in an overbent position. But .. one can't always tell from photos, so take my advice with a grain of salt.

Magnum

[downthecenterlinetheycome]

Magnum - that's not muscle! :lol: That's his mohawk. :D His mane flops over halfway on most of his neck, and stands up in the middle. I can see why it would look like muscle in the silhouette shot though! :winkgrin:

[mbm]

mbm - so I guess you don't ride your older horses? Or maybe you're not old enough yet to know that with age come aches and pains..... So why insist on being uncomfortable when there is something you can do about it?

i didnt know we were speaking of older horses with normal older horses ailments? i was speaking about horses being injected due to injury re: training/riding.

but now that i think of it: if i had to inject my older horse to make it comfortable for the level of riding i was doing- i would reexamine what i was requesting of the horse and modify as needed so as to not have to ask the horse to do something that hurts it/damages it further and then cover it up with meds.

and yes, i do understand that as we get older movement is the best "cure" for certain issues..... but there is a big difference between keeping a horse moving to better its health (ie therapy) or asking it to move in a way the breaks it down further.

[mbm]

I don't disagree with this. But I do disagree with your apparent premise that correct dressage is "therapy" and can help conformationally destined-to-be-undsound horses avoid that fate.

no, i didn't say that, or even think it. what i said was that if my riding/training were creating a horse the required injections i would take a look at what i was doing to create this and hopefully have the guts to change what i was doing to create a broken horse and not just inject it and continue to do what i was doing that lead to the injury in the first place. (whew!)

i also do believe that dressage can help keep horses moving correctly so that if they have some kind of issue the work (at the appropriate level/intensity etc ) can help keep them comfortable etc.

and i am specifically speaking about injury due to riding/training - not just normal stuff as the horse gets older (altho i do believe that if ridden /trained correctly they will tend to stay sounder longer into their old age)

[pines4equines]

I have a PMU who I adopted in 2000. He is very close behind and is slightly cow hocked. I manage him very carefully. This horse has turned me into a much better horseman because I have to scrutinize the work schedule/training and exercise. I also am much more meticulous about getting him fitter and working up to whatever I plan to do.

I think if you ask yourself what you truly want to do with your horse then proceed from there. I mean if you want to go 4th level, well maybe not but if you want to learn more about dressage, maybe make him a better horse through it, then why not?

Again, having a horse with issues is only going to make you a better horseman with the knowledge you gain along the way as well as the compassion for the animal as you gain your knowledge.

And asking questions and learning...good golly isn't that part of what life is all about?

Have fun and big kiss to him for me.

[downthecenterlinetheycome]

Thanks. :)

One more thing I forgot. He paddles slightly on the RF at the trot. Lovely. Just what we needed for that knee, right? :D

[Alagirl]

he's a cuty.

A bit back in the RF...but it seems to be a trimming issue.

A bit of a massage hardly ever hurts...nor a good chiro work up.

And and yes...if you want to get rid of im, I tell you where my mailbox is, so you can tie him up there! :lol:

He looks like my type of guy! Smallish, compact and not lazy (maybe too spunky...old peoplez don't bounce well)

[downthecenterlinetheycome]

Oh yeah, one more thing I forgot. He paddles slightly with the RF at the trot. Just because we need to stress that knee a little more. :no: Horses.

Alagirl... Not a chance. :P He's mine, sound or not. LOL. You've got it right with BOTH lazy and spunky. (Ohhh, noooo, you want me to trot FORWARD? You gotta be kidding me... OH WAIT NOOO! THERE'S SOMETHING THERE I SEE IT! RUNNNNNN!) One second it's Noo, I can't possibly do something like trot, and the second later, it's OMYGEED! RUNNNN! ;P But he's learning.

[egontoast]

how many boards have you posted this on? .

All these random opinions will only confuse or depress you.

Consult your vet and farrier

[downthecenterlinetheycome]

how many boards have you posted this on? .

All these random opinions will only confuse or depress you.

Consult your vet and farrier

COTH, and one other. I'm not on a posting spree, don't worry.

[Cherry]

Well, it sounds as if you're on top of things.... The vet couldn't figure out the difference between a congenital abnormality and an acquired one??? Sheesh....

Hard to say what's going to happen to this little feller over the long haul! All you can do is what you can do (have someone else come in and assess that knee/leg/hoof). The rest is in God's hands (or whomever decides what's going to happen to our horses). Personally, I don't like injecting the joint--there's too much that can go wrong and when it goes wrong it goes majorly wrong! I worry about an infection any time you breech the joint capsule!!!! :eek: There are other things you can inject in other areas that present far less risks!!!! ;)

Good luck (but your horse doesn't seem to have a whole lot wrong with it in my eyes ;) ).

[slc2]

paddling in and of itself is immaterial with dressage horses. It makes absolutely no difference to soundness or judging.

if it's due to some problem, that's different, but with your horse it is not at all clear that it's a problem at all.

[angel]

I have always thought that clubbing of a foot was just the results of seeing a problem in the diagonal hind leg...generally a tighter stifle joint on that side. You might try having the farrier snub the toes on the rear feet, especially the right rear, such as might be done for a Quarterhorse. The clubbed foot is showing which front leg is taking more weight. Because it takes more weight, it tends to not move as far forward during each strides, which in turn puts more stress on the knee. By snubbing the rear feet, there will be less push from behind, which means the front legs will travel less forward. If the right rear is snubbed more than the left rear, it will help equalize the incorrect push from behind, and hopefully bring the horse back into better, equal side allignment. Nothing will be a perfect correction. The old Arabians tended toward sicklehocking. As breeders worked to change this part of the conformation, they also were breeding for bigger horses. I think maybe the breeding genetics for the stifle did not keep up with other areas of change in conformation, and as the results, we tend to see more clubfooting.

My thoughts on the paddling are that it is a conformational comprensation action. This horse's left hind is held more closely under its body on the forward portion of the stride. If the diagonal fore cannot get out of the way, the horse would be striking the right fore all the time. If the right fore moves somewhat to the side, this striking is prevented. But, what do I know? Not a vet or a farrier.

[egontoast]

I have always thought that clubbing of a foot was just the results of seeing a problem in the diagonal hind leg...generally a tighter stifle joint on that side. You might try having the farrier snub the toes on the rear feet, especially the right rear, such as might be done for a Quarterhorse. The clubbed foot is showing which front leg is taking more weight. Because it takes more weight, it tends to not move as far forward during each strides, which in turn puts more stress on the knee. By snubbing the rear feet, there will be less push from behind, which means the front legs will travel less forward. If the right rear is snubbed more than the left rear, it will help equalize the incorrect push from behind, and hopefully bring the horse back into better, equal side allignment. Nothing will be a perfect correction. The old Arabians tended toward sicklehocking. As breeders worked to change this part of the conformation, they also were breeding for bigger horses. I think maybe the breeding genetics for the stifle did not keep up with other areas of change in conformation, and as the results, we tend to see more clubfooting.

My thoughts on the paddling are that it is a conformational comprensation action. This horse's left hind is held more closely under its body on the forward portion of the stride. If the diagonal fore cannot get out of the way, the horse would be striking the right fore all the time. If the right fore moves somewhat to the side, this striking is prevented. But, what do I know? Not a vet or a farrier. Nov. 23, 2008 10:00 PM

No, you clearly are not a vet or a farrier and, no offence, but a lot of what you are saying is just ... well I'm searching for a word that will not offend. Any good text will explain the different causes of club feet, paddling,etc.

For example, club feet can be related to orthopedic developmental issues in that leg (ie constricture of tendons) , genetics, and even from how the lanky weanling grazes with that foot back,etc . To tell someone it's always just the result of problems with the diagonally opposite stifle and provide your remedy is ....again I struggle not to offend with the wrong word .

and to say that snubbing the rear toes will result in less push from behind and to mess with that left/right to address the club, I can only say, WHUH? Are you joking?

[meaty ogre]

When I opened the thread, I was expecting something much worse. I'm not a goog confo. critic, but I bought a book on conformation last month so that I could identify all the faults of one of my new rescues...he has a LOT. :-)

http://danandbill.wordpress.com/2008/11/21/approaching-the-2-month-anniversary/_dsc4010-002/

http://danandbill.wordpress.com/2008/09/30/introducing-dan-and-bill/dsc03670-004/

Perhaps even scarier is that he was just gelded, so he might have offspring. EEEK. Now that's scary! What you can't see in the pictures very well is the fact that his feet are horrendous...extremely contracted heels, very narrow and upright hooves. His shoes looked like they belonged on mules...very narrow and oblong.

Darned if the little bugger ain't sound though! You never can tell, can you?

[ToN Farm]

Except for that one leg, I think he is a really cute horse. If he breaks down, it won't be because of doing dressage.

He needs a VERY experienced farrier and a VERY experienced sport horse vet. The services of both are going to cost you some $$$.
There are going to be various opinions from farriers about how to trim/shoe this horse. Whomever you chose, the horse will need to be on a frequent schedule in order to maintain the best balance. Right now, he is so different in front that the gait is going to show up as irregular and that will be heavily penalized in the dressage ring, or maybe they will ring the bell and excuse you.

[kkj]

His club foot does not look that severe. However, when you couple that foot with the back at the knee issue and the fact that he is not sound right now, I would be worried. What exactly is wrong with him or where does his lameness block to right now? How are the xrays?

From my experience the only time to mess with a club foot is when the horse is less than a year old. Then you might have success with surgery to correct it. However, if it is ignored when the horse is very young or especially if it develops later in life (not when the horse is a foal) due to a conformation issue ie. back at the knee or an injury where that foot is not weighted evenly, you have a bigger problem. Also, most every time I have seen a vet or farrier try to correct the club foot on an adult horse or try to make the front feet match, they have created a bigger problem. I have worked with several horses with a club foot. If they are being asked a lot of like to show in the HJ world or to do above 2nd level, they have all had problems. Sometimes they will have tendon problems, or even tear the check ligament, or injure the shoulder or injure the other front leg in compensating. I would not personally touch a horse with a club foot because I have seen too many break down.

If this horse was sound and you wanted to just do training level, I could see taking the risk. Right now since you already own him, I think it depends on what exactly is making him lame, his xrays, etc. I also think you should consider having a very good vet do a thorough workup and figure out the feet issue with a very good farrier. Then again, depending on what is wrong with him, I would not sink a bunch of $$ into trying to make it work.

[ideayoda]

I have seen GP horses, sound in their 20s, with worse problems (and we havent seen him from the front and back). However, it seems like the trimming all the way round is rather problematic. First really good vet and a good farrier agree on what the problem is and then how to proceed.

[nhwr]

In dressage, most horses are not severely limited by their conformation.
And most riders are not severely limited by their horses.

I think he is cute from what I can see, though I agree his feet could look better.

Find a good farrier and have fun :)

[Sudi's Girl]

I agree that other than the RF leg, his confo seems pretty nice to me! He looks to be a very sweet horse as well.

As most have already mentioned - please please get a QUALIFIED vet/farrier, specializing in leg issues to help you with this. Posting on BB's can be discouraging - I think you will feel much better with advice from a knowledgable veterinarian that can analyze what is truly going on (and not from a pic).

If the horse is able to work, I see dressage being his best bet! You sound like you're trying to do what's best for him, and that's admirable - best of luck!

[craz4crtrs]

In dressage, most horses are not severely limited by their conformation.
And most riders are not severely limited by their horses.

I think he is cute from what I can see, though I agree his feet could look better.

Find a good farrier and have fun :)

I agree. You aren't asking if this horse could go GP. Any dressage would be good for him and from the other pics I have seen of him, he's adorable.

I agree on his feet. Clubby feet seem to be common in arabs, one of mine was that way. We just trimmed him balanced and he did fine for everything my daughter did with him. He was sound at 28 when he died.

Having had a lot of arabs over the years, one thing I have noticed is that some farriers try to trim them like a qh or a tb. Your horses shoulder is fairly steep, so his hoof angles should be more up right. The pics show that too much heel was taken off and his angles flattened out. That could have a lot to do with his lameness. The only thing that would make our clubby arab look off, was when a farrier tried to change his angles too much. Then he would wing out, get flares and have a little skip in his gait. Trimmed properly, with or without shoes, he did great.

A prime example of laming a horse like yours is my neighbors arab gelding. He had upright feet, the old farrier cut off his heels, put too small a shoe on with his heels badly pinched, and flattened out his sole. The horse was so sore he actually went into laminitis. Xrays, proper shoeing from a new farrier with vet care, and he is now barefoot and sound. In less than a year he went from almost being put down, to normal.

Go for it.

[Kareen]

What egontoast and the others said. Quite frankly I wouldn't even refer to this foot as a clubfoot. That term should be reserved for feet that have a more pronounced angulation mismatch. This I would merely call a deviation (as in 'fetlock centerline' not in alignment with 'hoof centerline' (sorry language barrier ;) ) and it would worry me far less than the deviation in the carpus which is bound to put more stress on certain structures of the leg than there should be. But like everybody said: Don't fix what's not broken. Maintain him well, ride with care and avoid him being overweight. If that's you in the picture you will make a suitable rider for him. Try to keep your medium frame and I'm sure you will both be fine. IF a problem shows up later on that relates to any of his conformational imperfections you will cross that bridge when you get to it. No need to feel sorry for him before he even knows about the problems some humans think they see :)
PS I am a vet and yes I've seen worse confo issues staying sound into old age as well as some technically perfect horses suffer all kinds of injuries, sprains leading to dreadful performance and premature retirement. Good luck :)

[downthecenterlinetheycome]

Thanks all. Yeah, I wouldn't call it a clubfoot, because it isn't. X rays show it's not technically a club, no deviation of the coffin bone, it's just upright. All the feedback I've been getting on not bringing it down though.. Since it's not a true clubfoot, since it's something caused by the way he grazes and some bad trims, shouldn't it be brought down? And his mechanical issue looks better the lower it's brought, so...? I will consult a vet.

[EqTrainer]

Thanks all. Yeah, I wouldn't call it a clubfoot, because it isn't. X rays show it's not technically a club, no deviation of the coffin bone, it's just upright. All the feedback I've been getting on not bringing it down though.. Since it's not a true clubfoot, since it's something caused by the way he grazes and some bad trims, shouldn't it be brought down? And his mechanical issue looks better the lower it's brought, so...? I will consult a vet.


If it's not a true club, based on the xrays, then you need to figure out why it is doing this. The grazing thing... IMO is bullshit. He may do that now, but I don't think it *caused* that foot to be the way it is. Regardless he need to be trimmed to what is correct FOR HIM based on his xrays.

So... did you have film of his knee? If so, what did it show?

[rideforthelaurels16]

I'm not as experienced as some of the people who have replied but I've got to say that 1) your horse is SUPER ADORABLE and 2) having ridden and worked with several "conformationally challenged" horses with little to no problems I agree with the person who said to take him to a really experienced "leg man" and get as many opinions as possible. No, he may never do Grand Prix, but I think it's safe to assume that he can handle the lower levels.

[downthecenterlinetheycome]

Thanks.

If it's not a true club, based on the xrays, then you need to figure out why it is doing this. The grazing thing... IMO is bullshit. He may do that now, but I don't think it *caused* that foot to be the way it is. Regardless he need to be trimmed to what is correct FOR HIM based on his xrays.

So... did you have film of his knee? If so, what did it show?

No film of the knee yet. I will get a vet out ASAP, but unfortunately, circomestances aren't the best. I'm 14, can't work, am the eldest of 5 kids, and my family is in a really bad financial place right now. The last thing my parents need to worry about is my horse's knee, though of course it worries me greatly. I am working on it, and he's not doing any real work in the meantime. At least it's not ouchy, just mechanical, but he won't be doing anything other than W/T 30 min 2x a week with a light (80lbs) rider.

Is it better for me to not ride until I have the vet out, or work him lightly? It gets no worse with work, and is almost invisible when he's working forward. I have no problem laying him off if that's what's best for him.

[downthecenterlinetheycome]

Thanks Meaty Ogre. I think your guy is cutttte! :D Then again, I think mine is tooo...... LOL.

[slc2]

If the horse is lame, do not work him. If the horse is not lame, work him.

EQTRAINER:
"The grazing thing... IMO is bullshit"

I do love this woman so. And she is so very right about this.

This is one of the biggest pieces of baloney that every got believed by anyone. Grazing with one foot back does not cause a club foot. That's right up there with, 'I've got some BEEEEUUUUTIFUL ocean front property in Iowa I'll sell you cheap'.

A club foot IS a more upright foot. That is the definition of club foot. It can be mild, or severe. A club foot is simply a foot that is more upright than its mate. The xrays may or may not be abby normal.

[downthecenterlinetheycome]

I'm not saying that him grazing with his foot like that CAUSED the club foot by any means. I'm saying he's possible putting that foot back like that because he's back at the knee on that leg and that foot is more upright, therefore it's easier for him not to weight the heel while grazing.

It depends on what your definition of lame is.

If lame means he is in pain, he is not lame.

If lame means he puts one foot down toe first and pops it because of a mechanical issue, then he is lame.

???

[slc2]

Your horse doesn't appear to show any lameness. He needs a better trim and to be seen by a vet to evaluate him for sport horse work, but there isn't any information here that even remotely suggests lameness. Not even by the wildest stretch of the wildest imagination.

[Kareen]

There has been recent research that proves the hypothesis that young horses do develop clubfeet doe to their grazing habbits which are caused by growing imbalances that are very common. Many of those imbalances autocorrect, others get worse depending on how the animal is managed and feet trimmed.
It has been published (I think Switzerland but not sure, could find out) and is reportedly waterproof. But what is scientific research when you have free and unlimited access to some of the most educated equestrian bb gurus *LOL*

[partlycloudy]

I'm wondering how you can tell if a horse is lame or not via the internet?

[slc2]

You look at a video tape of a horse, and if the horse is REAL lame, even one of those typically Blair Horse Project fuzzy from 100 miles away videos of Youtube, you can see that the horse is going around like he has a flat tire on one foot. It is harder and sometimes impossible to see a mild or intermittent lameness on a video, and if the horse is rein lame or just resisting the reins, or like MOST dressage horses one sees day to day, not on the bit, it can be hard to tell if it's lame or just 'rein lame'.

[Chall]

Someone posted something (yeah, I know how helpful) about trim/shoeing and what it meant when you see the skin above the hoof "bulge" over the start of the coronet band, and how they trimmed that. I see your guy has a little of that . I don't know if that's important, it just what caught my (inexperienced) eye.

[Pookah]

Don't panic based on dire predictions made on a BB based on a couple of photos. Conformation is part of the whole package; yes, it's important, and yes, it does affect soundness. Just as riding, care, farrier and vet work, and luck do. There are horses with terrible conformation, living in crappy conditions, with their feet trimmed wrong and no vet care, and bad riding, who never take a lame step. And there are horses with perfect conformation, thousands of dollars in the best vet and farrier care, clean xrays, etc, who can't stay sound. It's definitely good to be aware of your horse's conformation and manage his limitations to minimize them, but I wouldn't set limits for him. My retired horse has dreadful conformation-Hilda Gurney once described his shoulder as the straightest she had ever seen, and his back pasterns are dropped so far that they look painful. But, his pasterns have been like that his entire life (he's 32 now); they've never gotten better or worse, and they've never bothered him. Because I knew that about his conformation, we've always watched it, and always worked him in bandages, etc, and did what we could to provide some extra support, but it never kept him from doing anything. Despite his conformation, he managed to compete to PSG in dressage, prelim eventing, and did some jumpers too, and is still pretty darn sound in retirement at 32. So don't plan to retire yours just because of less-than-ideal conformation-do what you can to minimize the impact, and let him tell you if he's not comfortable. Chiropractic, massage, and acupuncture are all wonderful and will go a long way toward keeping horses sound. And, it sounds like you're already on the right track with a good farrier now. I've had Pookah for 16 years, and his crappy TB feet have always been more of a problem than anything in his legs! Good luck, your guy is adorable!!!!

[Alagirl]

Oh yeah, one more thing I forgot. He paddles slightly with the RF at the trot. Just because we need to stress that knee a little more. :no: Horses.

Alagirl... Not a chance. :P He's mine, sound or not. LOL. You've got it right with BOTH lazy and spunky. (Ohhh, noooo, you want me to trot FORWARD? You gotta be kidding me... OH WAIT NOOO! THERE'S SOMETHING THERE I SEE IT! RUNNNNNN!) One second it's Noo, I can't possibly do something like trot, and the second later, it's OMYGEED! RUNNNN! ;P But he's learning.



LOL, if he is like that, you can keep him. Had a lazy spook once...was not much fun and that was when I was young! :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[egontoast]

You look at a video tape of a horse, and if the horse is REAL lame, even one of those typically Blair Horse Project fuzzy from 100 miles away videos of Youtube, you can see that the horse is going around like he has a flat tire on one foot.

If it were that easy to determine soundness, no one would ever need to consult a vet on the issue. They could just send the video to the internet experts like our slc here.

The owner of the horse says this

It depends on what your definition of lame is.

If lame means he is in pain, he is not lame.

If lame means he puts one foot down toe first and pops it because of a mechanical issue, then he is lame.



That suggests she needs to consult the vet, not the internet experts.
To the OP, read what Kareen wrote (she's a vet). Do not panic, take it easy and if at all possible consult a good vet and farrier/working together to support your horse's issues. There may well be things a vet and farrier can do to alleviate the issue and prevent future problems. For example, the upright hoof may be an appropriate adjustment related to the leg conformation and may be right for that horse. Don't know.

If money is a problem, then just take it slow and be careful what you ask
from the horse. For your age, you seem well informed and I think your horse is in good hands.

[RU2U]

My thought is consider the horse. No horse is perfect and alot of times you look at the great movers and you think "OH MY GOD", but they move great for themselves because you put it all together and it works.

Get yourself a good black smith who understands the way a horse is put together and can adjust for it not one who makes the hoof look pretty.

Then go out and enjoy your boy. Stop thinking so much and just go have fun with him.

[Moderator 1]

OP, we merged your two threads on this topic into one to avoid repetition and keep the info together.

Thanks!
Mod 1

[EqTrainer]

There has been recent research that proves the hypothesis that young horses do develop clubfeet doe to their grazing habbits which are caused by growing imbalances that are very common. Many of those imbalances autocorrect, others get worse depending on how the animal is managed and feet trimmed.
It has been published (I think Switzerland but not sure, could find out) and is reportedly waterproof. But what is scientific research when you have free and unlimited access to some of the most educated equestrian bb gurus *LOL*


I have read the study. I also actually trim real live horses feet, including those of young horses. Most young horses, at different times, snap a toe wall off or a quarter off or a heel off and IF you allow that to dicate how they stand or move or graze then YES, they will develop an abnormal foot based on that.

However.. to hypothesis that because a horse then stands with one foot more forward, that the standing itself and the grazing *itself* creates a club foot? There is more to it than that.. there is a *reason* they adopt that stance and the reason should be dealt with. Just because people are at best ignorant about young horses feet and at worst complacent doesn't mean we should just say Oh.. Ok.. that's what happens. Education and application of knowledge would dicate that people would be keeping a close eye on the feet of their foals and should anything odd develop, they would consult their farrier or trimmer and vet and get it corrected immediately.

Sure.. now that he HAS a more upright foot and is back at the knee, I am sure he DOES stand a particular way.

----

Regardless of whether or not the OP's horse has a club foot, I think a lot of people are missing the real issue at hand - not only is that foot more upright, but the horse is BEHIND at the knee. That is the real crux of the issue, not the club foot. Horses can and do function well with club feet - even true clubs, which this horse actually does not appear to have.

[Donella]

I dont think anyone here can or cannot say wether this horse will stay sound. Some horses don't stay sound despite great conformation, some have what we could consider horrid conformation, and they do great. Anyone every seen Quando Quando's front legs??

I would have a super fairrier look at him, see if something can be done. Watch for any signs of him being uncomfortable. He may need alot of maintenance, he may not last and he may last ages. Arabs are not known for having alot of soundness issues, there were many with crooked legs in the barn I trained at for years and many went on to national championships and never required anything much outside of some chiro work.

Good luck, he is a real cutey with alot of potential!

[slc2]

"but the horse is BEHIND at the knee. That is the real crux of the issue, not the club foot."

true.

One CANNOT create or even 'worsen' a club foot by how the animal grazes. The acquired club foot comes from serious lameness and all the weight being on the other foot for a long period of time, all the time, all day.

[downthecenterlinetheycome]

"but the horse is BEHIND at the knee. That is the real crux of the issue, not the club foot."

true.

One CANNOT create or even 'worsen' a club foot by how the animal grazes. The acquired club foot comes from serious lameness and all the weight being on the other foot for a long period of time, all the time, all day.

??? But that has never happened to my horse. Are you referring to a true club foot, or an upright foot? It's confusing with some people saying it's a true club and some saying it's not. I do not think it is a true club, and he has never had any sign of lameness, other than this mechanical issue in the 2 years I've owned him.

[whitewolfe001]

I don't have much to add after all this discussion and speculation regarding the mechanics of his confirmation, but I would say that it sounds like you are doing a really good job with caring for and maintaining your horse. No one can predict the future and even the most perfectly conformed horse with the most celebrated genetics could become lame at any time. And lots of horses have issues that require maintenance of some sort. Just like many people do, too.

All we can do is learn as much as we can, be conscientious, learn to ride as correctly as possible, and provide the best care we can afford to. And it sounds like you're doing that. There is not much more anyone can do. Try not to worry too much. He's sound, he's cute, you're learning on him, you're having a good time with him. You're not imposing any sort of extraneous strain on him compared to any other discipline by wanting to pursue dressage. Keep watch, try not to worry so much, and enjoy the ride.

[slc2]

Are you referring to a true club foot, or an upright foot

There is no difference. There is no such thing as a 'true' club foot. The term 'club foot' does not depend on anything other than the angle of the foot. Someone is trying to confuse you. it's common for people selling horses to insist, 'that isn't a TRUE club foot, that's just an upright foot' which is baloney.

The terminology is that a club foot is an upright foot. It can be slight, moderate, severe, and some will 'grade' it based on how many degrees difference in the angle between it and the other foot, the 'severity' depending on how much different it is from the other foot, but it is all a club foot.

From Dr Clarke:Chronic club foot presents as an obvious contracture of the heel; the heel will also be excessively long and the front of the hoof will have a "dished in" appearance. Chronic cases are usually seen in older horses. The horse may or may not have walking difficulty or lameness. If the horse is not lame, efforts to maintain the natural shape and balance of the hoof should be taken. The hoof should not be trimmed to change the hoof angle as lameness may occur.

The club foot can be seen in a young horse before weight is born or during growth periods due to contracted tendons, either congenital or due to incorrect diet causing incorrect growth.

It can also be seen in the older horse that is lame for a long time and keeps weight off one foot.

For many horses one upright forefoot is just how they are, they are never lame, and never bothered, even though the flight or motion of the club footed leg be different from the other foreleg's motion or flight path. A horse with 'mismatched' feet is not one I'd buy, but if I had the horse I'd make the best of it. Trying to change the angles is not always or even often a good idea.

The horse may be lame or it may not be lame with a club foot.

In your horses case, the club foot and the back-at-the-knee look of the leg MAY be related, or they may be completely unrelated to eachother. It may have been acquired as an adult or it may have been something he had since a very young age, either when he was born, or acquired during rapid growth as a weanling to yearling. Many conditions and even type of work change the shape of the horse's hooves in general, but club foot also has a number of different causes.

[downthecenterlinetheycome]

Thanks Whitewolfe.

Are you referring to a true club foot, or an upright foot

There is no difference. There is no such thing as a 'true' club foot. The terminology is that a club foot is an upright foot. It can be slight, moderate, severe, depending on how much different it is from the other foot, but it is all a club foot.

Then you said that a club foot only happens if the horse is lame and puts all his weight on that foot. I'm confused, as he has never been lame. I think his upright foot is partially his back at the knee issue, and partially bad farriery that brought it out. (Like I said, a farrier trimmed him very upright on that hoof right as it was starting out.)

[egontoast]

Semantics! True club foot to some means the coffin bone is affected. It's Not Wrong fcs slc, it's semantics. Not everyone uses your exact definitions, slc. You aren't exactly the authority on these things.

To the Op, do yourself a favour and consult a real expert. about the knee and leg and foot. Don't rely on Bulletin board biddies when it comes to the well being of your horse.

[sid]

A conformational "defect" is only such if it affects performance. You cannot look at a problem without looking at the rest of the way the horse is put together.

For instance, a straight shoulder can be a problem for the ability to lengthen in the trot, BUT couple that with an incredibly free elbow ... the straight shoulder is no longer a problem in doning fantastic extended trots.

It's so important to look at how all the "pieces and parts" fit together as a whole and what other parts of the horses' physical makeup can compensate for the not-so-perfect "whole".

John Henry was one of the most famed and successful racehorses eons ago, yet he had two clubbed feet.

My own stallion, Boleem, was one of the top FEI competitors in the country, yet he has a slightly straight shoulder (but very free elbow) and one foot that is slighly upright.

When a farrier tried to lower his heel to make him make both feet "even" it damned near crippled him.

Don't look at just the parts, but the whole. I totally agree with what Kareen posted. He's a vet and he's probably seen horses with close to perfect conformation break down and with those that were less than perfect excel.

Look at the way your horse "goes"...you will see what is an impediment conformationally and what is not. The body has a way of compensating for less than a less than perfect "picture".

Cripes, just look at "halter" horses or horses that are shown on the line for their attributes for their conformation. "Beauty is as beauty does" as they say. Form and funtion are paramount, but much of horse anatomy is looking at not one just one section of a horse, but the whole horse and how it responds to its perceived defects.

After looking at your pics, I wouldn't worry at all about that upright foot. I wouldn't agressively try to make both feet look the same. But I also wouldn't let that foot any more upright than it is. OTOH, I would worry about that puffy knee and get it radiographed right away.

I like the conformation body-wise of your horse. The upright foot may have absolutely nothing to do with the puffy knee. I'd deal with the puffy knee issue first and find out what may be going on in that joint, long before I'd worry about the upright foot.

[downthecenterlinetheycome]

A conformational "defect" is only such if it affects performance. You cannot look at a problem without looking at the rest of the way the horse is put together.

For instance, a straight shoulder can be a problem for the ability to lengthen in the trot, BUT couple that with an incredibly free elbow ... the straight shoulder is no longer a problem in doning fantastic extended trots.

It's so important to look at how all the "pieces and parts" fit together as a whole and what other parts of the horses' physical makeup can compensate for the not-so-perfect "whole".

John Henry was one of the most famed and successful racehorses eons ago, yet he had two clubbed feet.

My own stallion, Boleem, was one of the top FEI competitors in the country, yet he has a slightly straight shoulder (but very free elbow) and one foot that is slighly upright.

When a farrier tried to lower his heel to make him make both feet "even" it damned near crippled him.

Don't look at just the parts, but the whole. I totally agree with what Kareen posted. He's a vet and he's probably seen horses with close to perfect conformation break down and with those that were less than perfect excel.

Look at the way your horse "goes"...you will see what is an impediment conformationally and what is not. The body has a way of compensating for less than a less than perfect "picture".

Cripes, just look at "halter" horses or horses that are shown on the line for their attributes for their conformation. "Beauty is as beauty does" as they say. Form and funtion are paramount, but much of horse anatomy is looking at not one just one section of a horse, but the whole horse and how it responds to its perceived defects.

After looking at your pics, I wouldn't worry at all about that upright foot. I wouldn't agressively try to make both feet look the same. But I also wouldn't let that foot any more upright than it is. OTOH, I would worry about that puffy knee and get it radiographed right away.

I like the conformation body-wise of your horse. The upright foot may have absolutely nothing to do with the puffy knee. I'd deal with the puffy knee issue first and find out what may be going on in that joint, long before I'd worry about the upright foot.


Thanks for the very informative post. What puffy knee? Neither knee is puffy, though it may appear so in the pictures. His knees are cool not swollen.

Do you think starting him on a glucosamine/msm joint supplement would be a good idea?

I will try my best to get a vet out as soon as possible, but in the meantime, I'm trying to do all my research. Thanks.

[slc2]

sid is very knowedgeable and she's right about this too. look at the whole horse is good advice, so is a deviation of the leg is not an issue unless it causes lameness.

"Then you said that a club foot only happens if the horse is lame and puts all his weight on that foot. I'm confused, as he has never been lame"

Well people don't always know when their horse is lame. But too, the horse could have had the club foot since before you got him.

Did he have it when you bought him? Did he get it at a specific time when you had him (acquired).

That is not something I believe at all - that club feet only occur as a result of lameness. It is quite commonly what has happened when an adult horse develops a club foot, but of course, like anything else, not always.

an animal can weight one foot more than the other without being lame. A deviation of the leg can have just the same result as a horse weighting one leg due to lameness. A deviation of the leg (a crooked leg) causes weight distribution to be uneven too.

All the causes of club foot have weight distribution in common.

In the horse with a deviation of the leg, in the baby horse with contracted tendons, in the adult horse that puts more weight on one leg, all causes wind up causing a weight distribution and that is what leads to the club foot.

The club foot may or may not itself cause pain/lameness. Many horses do not have any problem with a club foot, others do.

One of my horses got a slight club foot after getting a very bad infection in his hoof some years before I got him. He had a huge lytic lesion inside his hoof (ie is visible on xray). He had a very slight dish to the front of the foot and a very slightly deeper heel. He was never lame from it.

[downthecenterlinetheycome]

OK, I talked to my old farrier, here is her opinion on things (I'm finding a new farrier, just moved.) First I'll give you his hoof x rays, though they translated pretty poorly to the computer...

http://mail.google.com/mail/h/1r4vvftapa0i4/?view=att&th=11dd8589aa291f59&attid=0.4&disp=inline&zw

http://mail.google.com/mail/h/1r4vvftapa0i4/?view=att&th=11dd8589aa291f59&attid=0.3&disp=inline&zw

Here's what she said about the x-rays:

If you look at the coffin joint, you can see that
the short pastern (P2) is not articulating properly with the coffin bone
(P3). It's not "snuggled in" to the joint. This is what's causing the
popping when Tango walks on his toes. With his heels lowered, he should
begin to realign this joint so that it's more normal.

If you look at the radiograph I marked with red lines, you can see the
following:
The bottom line is the bottom of Tango's hoof (I can only guess because the
vet didn't place a metal tag there to tell us where the soft tissue ends.)
You can see the shadow of his bulbs at the back.

The second red line is where I think the bottom of Tango's coffin bone lies.
You can see it as a shadow just above the line. It's light (or radio-opaque)
because the bone is thin here, and most of the x-rays go though it and are
not recorded on the film. You can see how the high heel causes Tango's bone
to be out of alignment. The first two red lines should be about parallel.

The third red line is where most people think the bottom of the bone is
because it's so radiolucent. It's actually where the bone is the thickest,
causing the X-rays to be recorded on the film as the whitest areas.

I've also placed arrows down the center axis of P1, P2, and P3, the
phalangeal bones (long pastern, short pastern, coffin bone). These arrows
should be more in alignment. They are not because the heels are so high.
Also, notice where the navicular bone is just in back and above P3. It
should actually be lower and more a part of the joint than it is. That's
also because of the high heels and the way the joints are being forced out
of alignment by Tango's toe-first landing. Having this bone out of alignment
can cause real trouble over the long haul as it causes the tiny but
important impar ligament to be stressed and even damaged. That's why we have
to get those heels down.


Here is my farrier's trim report that she shared with me.

6/9/08: The gelding has an abnormality in the way he places his right forefoot, with an apparent “catching” of one of his tendons so that the heel “pops” down as the pastern moves from flight to stance at the walk. The gait anomaly, a condition only recently observed, is not apparent at the trot.
The heels were lowered to encourage a heel first landing. The dorsal walls were made passive to move break-over back. After the trim, “popping” seemed to lessen when the horse walked, but it’s hard to tell if this improvement was a result of trimming, for the horse may have developed a habit of popping its heel down into the thrust phase. Observation the next afternoon revealed that the horse does not pop his heels at the slow walk. I suspect that the dorsal wall is too short, creating a too steep angle. If the condition continues, I recommend that an MRI be taken to examine the ligaments and tendons of the pastern and coffin joints.
Other than the gait problem, the gelding’s hooves are extremely healthy with well-calloused, robust frogs and straight walls. Very little trimming was required on the back feet, which indicates that the horse is well exercised and maintaining hoof structure.

9/5

Trimmed Tango. Walls were very long, with both front feet showing significant breakage, especially in the quarters. Took the heel of the right front (clubby) foot down to 1 & 1/8th inch. There was no difference in the way the coffin joint appears to be articulating. Advised the taking of radiographs, which was done the next day. Dan Cocoran diagnoses a club foot, but since the coffin bone does not appear to be deformed, I am not sure. The radiograph does indicate that P2 is articulating with P3 in the way shown on the Gene Ovnecik tape for a severe toe landing. Talked to the owner about that.

9/26 Retrimmed Tango, taking his right front down to the widest part of the frog on the lateral side, it appearing to be a little higher from the side than the 1 & 1/8th inch measurement would indicate. When he walks hitting toe first, the snap of the pastern occurs; when he hits heel first (about every fifth step), the snap is absent or not as apparent. I will continue to lower the heel.

Agree? Disagree? This is all so confusing to me. :P

[egontoast]

I guess I'll suggest this one more time though it feels like beating the proverbial head against a wall.

Please consult a good vet rather than discussion boards. You can give the vet your farrier's report but you want the vet to look at the whole horse including the calf knee.

It's not productive to just look at the foot in isolation when there are other issues with the same leg. Sometimes optimum hoof trim is related to leg conformation.

I'll give you an example. A horse with bench knees (offset) may toe in. That's how the horse compensates for the bench knees to get the foot under their weight. You don't want to 'fix" the toeing in because there is a good reason for it and it is how the horse stays sound.

I don't know what is best for your horse but a vet and farrier working together are your best bet to prevent problems arising from your horses conformational issues.

[KSA2]

There has been recent research that proves the hypothesis that young horses do develop clubfeet doe to their grazing habbits which are caused by growing imbalances that are very common. Many of those imbalances autocorrect, others get worse depending on how the animal is managed and feet trimmed.


I agree in most breeds this may be the cause of club feet. However as an Arabian person and having this discussion with top Arabian breeders it tends to be more genetic. So genetic that the top breeders have found that is generally comes from one certain line. I am almost betting that if she had 1/2 Arab papers on this horse I could predict it's breeding to a T.

Club foot is a huge prominant breeding problem in Arabians and I tend to lean towards the genetic factor.

I have read a few of those studies and talked with many farriers in regards to it. I agree with it but with Arabs it's pretty easy to see which popular breeding line it came from.

[downthecenterlinetheycome]

I will consult a vet. My situation really sucks right now like I explained - I really don't know what else I can do right now. I'm sorry if I'm being irritating to people here, I can stop posting. I'm just trying to do what I can until I can have the vet out. I can't explain how bad our financial situation is right now, but I'm very stressed out about it and trying to help, but there's not that much a 14 year old can do when it comes to something of this magnitude. Don't think I don't feel completely useless and stupid for not being able to help him more right now - I do.

[egontoast]

it's not irritating so much as possibly counter productive for you.

It may cost a bit but will be much more productive if you can get an opinion from a good vet who will look at your horse and advise preventiative measures and farrier adjustments that may well increase the likelihood of long term soundness for your horse and, in the end, possibly save you money dealing with issues later.

[EqTrainer]

I agree in most breeds this may be the cause of club feet. However as an Arabian person and having this discussion with top Arabian breeders it tends to be more genetic. So genetic that the top breeders have found that is generally comes from one certain line. I am almost betting that if she had 1/2 Arab papers on this horse I could predict it's breeding to a T.

Club foot is a huge prominant breeding problem in Arabians and I tend to lean towards the genetic factor.

I have read a few of those studies and talked with many farriers in regards to it. I agree with it but with Arabs it's pretty easy to see which popular breeding line it came from.

Many years ago I kept my horses at an Arab show barn, and then at another one, and got a lot of exposure to Arabs and I was told and noted this exact same thing. In fact, I have heard more than one Arab person say that it is downright unusual to see Arabs w/two of the same front feet due to genetics.

Back then I was just avidly observing the trimming and shoeing and boy, was it something to deal with the asymmetries in those horses. Fascinating. Made me prioritize buying horses with two reasonably matching front feet :)

[downthecenterlinetheycome]

KSA2 - He doesn't have his half arab papers (yet), but I do have his pedigree if you're interested.

Ugh. I just asked my mom if we could please have a vet look at his knee because I'm concerned, but she blew it off and said we can't have a vet out just because I want to. I'll keep trying. Maybe she'll reconsider with a recommendation from a farrier.

Thank you all for being so understanding of my situation. I wish I could better follow your good advice.

[Bentley]

There has been recent research that proves the hypothesis that young horses do develop clubfeet doe to their grazing habbits which are caused by growing imbalances that are very common. Many of those imbalances autocorrect, others get worse depending on how the animal is managed and feet trimmed.
It has been published (I think Switzerland but not sure, could find out) and is reportedly waterproof. But what is scientific research when you have free and unlimited access to some of the most educated equestrian bb gurus *LOL*

Kareen, you make me laugh :). And I agree with you. I can first hand confirm that my horse in Australia developed a much more pronounced upright foot over the year that I had him. He had previously been kept in a dry lot and fed in his stall, but once I moved him to a large grassy pasture his one front hoof, which had been virtually identical to his other, became more upright and narrow over the course of the year I had him. There definitely was a change. The farrier worked with the change within reason but didn't want to do anything dramatic and I wasn't about to put him back in a dry lot situation just because he always chose to graze with one leg well in front of the other. Darn short necked, long legged TB ;-)

[mbm]

DTCTC - dont let others upset you or cause you grief - you have every right to post about your horse and to ask for input and info.

i do agree that getting conflicting info can be upsetting and confusing and i agree that is can be counter productive to post on BBs - however i understand totally why you are posting.... sometimes if you can't act one way (ie afford a vet) it is natural to want to at least discuss the issue so you feel like you are doing the best you can for your horse.

i might suggest you at least call your vet and see if s/he might discuss with you.... if you have a good relationship with our vet many will do this ( or at least mine does).. i also suggest you speak with your farrier.

i feel for you and understand your frsutration. both with your horse and your families financial crunch.

[oldbag]

I can't believe how much 'advice' you have been given on a horse we haven't even even seen in motion.:no:

Why don't you post a short video of him trotting? That's the only way to tell.
And much cheaper than a vet.;)

[downthecenterlinetheycome]

I will take a video of him trotting straight on, from the side, and walking if that helps you guys. I will try to do it tomorrow, haven't been to the barn for a bit because of family health issues. I'll try to do it tomorrow. New farrier is coming out on Monday.

[Austin Rider]

Can you get a temporary job so you can earn enough money for vet visit? If not, I'd advise investing your scarce $ with the best farrier you can find who can assess and trim your horse appropriately.

[Pookah]

Here's the thing--vets, no matter how talented they are, cannot predict the future. Yes, you should consult a vet when you can and find out how to best manage this horse's conformation to keep him sound and comfortable for what you want to do with him. But, it sounds like you can't right now, and you have to deal with right now. If the vet tells you that he will go lame in five years (I don't think any vet will deal in those kind of hypotheticals, but just as an example), what are you going to do? Stop riding him today? Deal with today, tomorrow's coming regardless. Shoe, ride, and care for the horse to the best of your ability and hope for the best. Your horse may not be getting a vet out today to advise you on long-term management, but keep in mind that he's still a lot better off than thousands of horses out there. It doesn't sound like you're worrying about where his next meal is coming from, which a lot of horse owners are. He's healthy, serviceably sound for what you're doing today, and while his feet could probably be improved, they're in no danger of falling off before a vet comes out. Ride him, enjoy him, and care for him to the best of your ability, whatever that may be. That's all that any horse would ask for.

[sid]

Pookah...well said. But I do think the OP is trying to be pro-active and that is a very good thing as many horse owners are not.

Really, very wise post.

[enjoytheride]

I've seen two arabs at my barn with club feet that with the miracle trimming work of my farrier come almost totally normal. They have "clubby" feet but with the correct trimming they look much more normal and move better, when one went on lease its club foot came back because of the farrier, not because of the grazing.

What are his bloodlines and how sound/long lived are they?

What have you done with his canter? I've seen arabs that have difficulty cantering under saddle and cross canter a lot but when you do some work in side reins on the lunge and some proper dressage work their back gets stronger and the canter change is HUGE. I restarted a arab/saddlebred cross that didn't canter AT ALL, outside or under saddle. It took about a month of lunge work and lots of me being really mean but he eventually learned to canter and actually started to do so outside too and ended up with a lovely canter. My mare will cross canter when she throws her head and drops her back and she is very weak to the right, but the correct riding and she canters true and gets stronger.

Can you take a video of him on the lunge line and under saddle? I think he's adorable.

[downthecenterlinetheycome]

Thanks so much everybody.

Enjoytheride, his canter to the right lead is very screwy. Getting better with proper dressage work, but very screwy. We are lunging, but no side reins. I think with his tendencies, he would resent them and they would put him on the forehand, but I will consider it. JMHO, I don't have much experience with them.

I will get undersaddle vids too, and cantering and lungeline ones. Thanks. He's by Arabic Comet; here's his sire's pedigree... http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/arabic+comet
Dam is unregistered.

Austin, Thing is, I did earn a money over the summer ($2000). Unfortunately, I was working for my parents, and my parents can't pay me right now, nor can my mom (mother of 5 like I said) drive me anywhere to work. Her time is worth more than what the time I'd spend working is.

-sigh-

I will try to do what you all suggested the best I can. New farrier soon. In the meantime, anything you see in his x-rays? I will give them to her A.S.A.P. I suck at seeing stuff in x-rays.

Again, thanks so much everyone.

[cheekyhorse]

Where are the pics of his x rays? I may or may not be able to help you with reading them. I am a vet tech.....not a vet, but I do know how to read films. Can't promise anything, but I'll try to help.

[downthecenterlinetheycome]

OK, I talked to my old farrier, here is her opinion on things (I'm finding a new farrier, just moved.) First I'll give you his hoof x rays, though they translated pretty poorly to the computer...

http://mail.google.com/mail/h/1r4vvftapa0i4/?view=att&th=11dd8589aa291f59&attid=0.4&disp=inline&zw

http://mail.google.com/mail/h/1r4vvftapa0i4/?view=att&th=11dd8589aa291f59&attid=0.3&disp=inline&zw

Here's what she said about the x-rays:

If you look at the coffin joint, you can see that
the short pastern (P2) is not articulating properly with the coffin bone
(P3). It's not "snuggled in" to the joint. This is what's causing the
popping when Tango walks on his toes. With his heels lowered, he should
begin to realign this joint so that it's more normal.

If you look at the radiograph I marked with red lines, you can see the
following:
The bottom line is the bottom of Tango's hoof (I can only guess because the
vet didn't place a metal tag there to tell us where the soft tissue ends.)
You can see the shadow of his bulbs at the back.

The second red line is where I think the bottom of Tango's coffin bone lies.
You can see it as a shadow just above the line. It's light (or radio-opaque)
because the bone is thin here, and most of the x-rays go though it and are
not recorded on the film. You can see how the high heel causes Tango's bone
to be out of alignment. The first two red lines should be about parallel.

The third red line is where most people think the bottom of the bone is
because it's so radiolucent. It's actually where the bone is the thickest,
causing the X-rays to be recorded on the film as the whitest areas.

I've also placed arrows down the center axis of P1, P2, and P3, the
phalangeal bones (long pastern, short pastern, coffin bone). These arrows
should be more in alignment. They are not because the heels are so high.
Also, notice where the navicular bone is just in back and above P3. It
should actually be lower and more a part of the joint than it is. That's
also because of the high heels and the way the joints are being forced out
of alignment by Tango's toe-first landing. Having this bone out of alignment
can cause real trouble over the long haul as it causes the tiny but
important impar ligament to be stressed and even damaged. That's why we have
to get those heels down.


Here is my farrier's trim report that she shared with me.

6/9/08: The gelding has an abnormality in the way he places his right forefoot, with an apparent “catching” of one of his tendons so that the heel “pops” down as the pastern moves from flight to stance at the walk. The gait anomaly, a condition only recently observed, is not apparent at the trot.
The heels were lowered to encourage a heel first landing. The dorsal walls were made passive to move break-over back. After the trim, “popping” seemed to lessen when the horse walked, but it’s hard to tell if this improvement was a result of trimming, for the horse may have developed a habit of popping its heel down into the thrust phase. Observation the next afternoon revealed that the horse does not pop his heels at the slow walk. I suspect that the dorsal wall is too short, creating a too steep angle. If the condition continues, I recommend that an MRI be taken to examine the ligaments and tendons of the pastern and coffin joints.
Other than the gait problem, the gelding’s hooves are extremely healthy with well-calloused, robust frogs and straight walls. Very little trimming was required on the back feet, which indicates that the horse is well exercised and maintaining hoof structure.

9/5

Trimmed Tango. Walls were very long, with both front feet showing significant breakage, especially in the quarters. Took the heel of the right front (clubby) foot down to 1 & 1/8th inch. There was no difference in the way the coffin joint appears to be articulating. Advised the taking of radiographs, which was done the next day. Dan Cocoran diagnoses a club foot, but since the coffin bone does not appear to be deformed, I am not sure. The radiograph does indicate that P2 is articulating with P3 in the way shown on the Gene Ovnecik tape for a severe toe landing. Talked to the owner about that.

9/26 Retrimmed Tango, taking his right front down to the widest part of the frog on the lateral side, it appearing to be a little higher from the side than the 1 & 1/8th inch measurement would indicate. When he walks hitting toe first, the snap of the pastern occurs; when he hits heel first (about every fifth step), the snap is absent or not as apparent. I will continue to lower the heel.

Agree? Disagree? This is all so confusing to me. :P

Here's the post with them in it. Any help would be great. I also have solar views that aren't on the comp yet.

[cheekyhorse]

that just goes to a gmail sign up page.

[downthecenterlinetheycome]

Huh. Here's the marked, scanned version.

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w58/avalon_13/Tango-sidemarked.png

[cheekyhorse]

He has some pretty severe alignment issues that is for certain. But at this point I am not seeing any arthritic changes in the joints, they are clean. I would definitely recommend that you pass these on to a specialist as xrays really only tell you part of the story, whether or not he has ligament or tendon problems on top of this is anyone's guess and you would not find that without MRI. Try one of the teaching hospitals (like Pullman in Idaho) they would help you at a lower cost, and you would get excellent help. You could at least ask for an opinion on the xrays.... where you go from there is your decision. They would probably recommend an MRI for starters - to see what is really going on in that hoof it is the only way to see.
If he was mine, I wouldn't get too excited about work ups on him at this point, if he is relatively sound and useable then go with it. But looking at those films, I would never expect him to be 'normal' in regards to the toe first landing/awkward gait and cantering. That is a give in from the way he is conformed.
I honestly cannot see that any 'trimming of his heels' will have any significant change in this.

[Kementari]

Pullman is in WA - Washington State University. ;) (Idaho doesn't have a vet school.) And I have to say, I've used WSU and it wasn't any cheaper than going to a private practice; I don't know if that's true of vet schools in general or not.

Regardless, once the money is there, go to the best leg doctor you can - that may mean going to a vet school, or it may mean going private. It depends on where you are. :yes:

[PiaffeDreams]

I think he's pretty cute.

Doing dressage has a lot of meanings for people. And a lot of people have very different needs in a horse than how far it can go up the levels.

No difference here in what I see compared to others. But, conformation is one piece of the big picture. I used to own the fugliest long backed, back and the knee, ewe necked, jug headed TB you ever saw.... he jumped grand prix for years, I did the juniors on him for several years, then low level evented him before he became a packer lesson horse, and finally died at age 30 not from a lameness. He had the two other big factors- heart and brains.

While we should pick the best conformation for our sport as possible (also paying close attention to overall suitability to the rider) sometimes the horse you end up with is far from perfect. So, you do your best to manage that horse with good riding, training, careful maintenance, and some sprinklings of Holy water for good fortune.

I have one of those- he's my top horse.
http://bp3.blogger.com/_zTe7JGS3eRE/RwH1G6b9MkI/AAAAAAAAAHk/iqwfFdVrJjo/s1600-h/Philipe_4yrsold_mudball.jpg

He's going to be 10 in January. He schools all the FEI work and is ready to go out at 4th. The angle of that pic does help him some. He's about as back at the knee as your horse, slightly sickle hocked, quite straight in the shoulder (which is pretty apparent in the photo) with a neck that ties in a little horizontal and thick (he's an andalusian)..... front feet that splay out and do not grow straight off the bony column. Thank goodness for my farrier, cuz this horse's feet are a puzzle! Either way he ALWAYS wears bell boots and protective leg wear for turnout and riding because he interferes especially in pirouette work.

He plays HARD in the pasture and is not an easy ride at all, but he loves to go out and strut his stuff. He came with a walk that could barely score a 6 and he can consistently get 8's now. I've still never seen him offer a clean flying change in the pasture, but he's got his 4's and is starting his 3's. Amazingly with his upright shoulder (and being an andy) he gets regular 7's on his med/ext gaits. So, that helps to keep him in the mid-high 60's on his scores through 3rd level.

Will he make a GP horse? I dunno. I just know he'll likely go further than I've trained a horse before and that's progress in my journey (plus I wouldn't trade him for the world). He was also a very economical horse to purchase back when he was 4 and at the time, that was the biggest criteria... and that he's pretty much bomb proof so my mom could ride him.

Enjoy your horse. There is nothing immediately awful. Just things to keep tabs on, manage and may require a heavy dose of realistic thinking down the line depending on what your aspirations are. Its always a give and take.

[cheekyhorse]

Pullman is in WA - Washington State University. ;) (Idaho doesn't have a vet school.) And I have to say, I've used WSU and it wasn't any cheaper than going to a private practice; I don't know if that's true of vet schools in general or not.

Regardless, once the money is there, go to the best leg doctor you can - that may mean going to a vet school, or it may mean going private. It depends on where you are. :yes:

yep it is Washington, but it is right on the Idaho border, I know I have been there as well. I had a horse I had to take there for a full workup with MRI a few years ago, unfortunatley his outcome was not very good. I did not find it to be that expensive considering all that they did for him.

[EqTrainer]

I absolutely am not trying to be tough on you... actually I can remember being your age and having issues w/my cats and dogs... my parents - since they had not cost $$$ like my horses did - provided them only minimal care.

I ended up working for my vet and can honestly say, now that I know what I do, that they did a lot for me for free or at low cost because they probably felt bad for me.

Having said that, I know that my vet would shoot a film of that knee for you when she was doing a call at your barn with no other charges... about $38 for one digital pic. It may be that if you have a relationship w/your vet and they know your situation that they may do the same. If you think you can, just ask. If indeed they tell you they will take one film and it will be at a minimal cost, PM me and I will paypal you the $$. No obligation other than that you pass it on someday to someone who needs some help.

Otherwise, your horses foot film is pretty interesting. It is very hard to say if you should/can lower the heel without seeing exactly what the hoof is doing but if it looks as I suspect it does then yes, I would lower it slowly. So I think your trimmer is probably on the right track :) A horse like this is usually best kept barefoot as you can trim on a very short cycle. It would take a very, very good farrier to trim and *shoe* this foot in a helpful way, it would cost you much much more, and you might not know if things had gone wrong w/it until much further down the road.

You sound like a very smart 14 year old and I bet if you asked your trimmer if you could keep his heels lowered to where she set them between trims she would be willing to show you how to do it and give you an old rasp. It would help him a lot to not grow more heel in between trims. Watch out, this is how I started trimming on top of everything else :lol: you may get sucked in and become a trimmer :winkgrin:


Hang in there and keep trying to learn more. You are already showing the responsibility to ask questions and make good decisions for your horse.. if you lived closer, I'd be happy to have you working in my barn :)

[downthecenterlinetheycome]

I absolutely am not trying to be tough on you... actually I can remember being your age and having issues w/my cats and dogs... my parents - since they had not cost $$$ like my horses did - provided them only minimal care.

I ended up working for my vet and can honestly say, now that I know what I do, that they did a lot for me for free or at low cost because they probably felt bad for me.

Having said that, I know that my vet would shoot a film of that knee for you when she was doing a call at your barn with no other charges... about $38 for one digital pic. It may be that if you have a relationship w/your vet and they know your situation that they may do the same. If you think you can, just ask. If indeed they tell you they will take one film and it will be at a minimal cost, PM me and I will paypal you the $$. No obligation other than that you pass it on someday to someone who needs some help.

Otherwise, your horses foot film is pretty interesting. It is very hard to say if you should/can lower the heel without seeing exactly what the hoof is doing but if it looks as I suspect it does then yes, I would lower it slowly. So I think your trimmer is probably on the right track :) A horse like this is usually best kept barefoot as you can trim on a very short cycle. It would take a very, very good farrier to trim and *shoe* this foot in a helpful way, it would cost you much much more, and you might not know if things had gone wrong w/it until much further down the road.

You sound like a very smart 14 year old and I bet if you asked your trimmer if you could keep his heels lowered to where she set them between trims she would be willing to show you how to do it and give you an old rasp. It would help him a lot to not grow more heel in between trims. Watch out, this is how I started trimming on top of everything else :lol: you may get sucked in and become a trimmer :winkgrin:


Hang in there and keep trying to learn more. You are already showing the responsibility to ask questions and make good decisions for your horse.. if you lived closer, I'd be happy to have you working in my barn :)

Thank you so much Eqtrainer, that's so generous. I will ask. I just moved, so I don't know this vet yet, but she needs to come out to give him his booster shots anyway, so I will ask.

Our pictures of his feet cost much more - like $150 for both, and not even digital x rays. Hmm. Maybe our old vet just stunk. :lol:

I'm definitely interested in learning to rasp him inbetween farrier visits. He'll be trimmed every 4 weeks, but I've noticed him getting a little chippy, which never happened before. (Our old farrier lived far away, but dropped in to trim about every 2 weeks and would do maintenance trims for free. She trimmed all my old trainer's rescue horses - a whopping 40 of them (yes, they were cared for impeccably, she owned the whole facility) for free. Very generous lady who was going to teach me trimming, but then I had to move.) I actually did some rasping for some ponies I worked with while I was on a long trip, because the lady was too cheap to actually trim them since they weren't really being ridden (no one small enough and experienced enough for 11h buckers/rearers/bolters :lol:, except me.) Their feet wore to an OK length, but split alot, and she wouldn't let me pay to have them trimmed, so I rasped them the best I could.

Again, thanks so much for all the support and generosity here - and Happy Thanksgiving!

[nhwr]

I can't believe that you would post x-rays and give replies provided here any credence. Not that commentators are uninformed but X-rays, in the absence of other information, are worthless.


If your horse is not sound, work with your vet.
If you horse is sound, take care of it to the best of your ability and ride.

[columbus]

Your future with any horse is in your hands. It is not the physical gifts he has or doesn't have. It IS about your ability to work with what you have. Ride and enjoy the horse you have. Set up the basics by the training pyramid and use the pyramid to improve the horse you have. An uneven horse can feel very lame but you can gently work on evening them with considerate training. For the HUGE majority of riders we will be limited by OURSELVES not our horses. And that goes for even the very best, most perfect candidates for future Olympians. Each lameness or problem you encounter is just that and don't decide it will cancel your future goals. Deal with the problem with your best resources, be smart, learn from every adventure, build on what you see and learn. Enjoy this horse, don't lament this horse. You secure this horse's future by making him a well trained companion. He will advance based on your creativity and discipline. If he is not your perfect candidate then you will have made a horse who can find a great home at a lower level. PatO

[downthecenterlinetheycome]

Thanks Columbus. I just want to make it clear; sound or lame, I'm not going to discard this horse. He's my best friend, and when the time comes that he can no longer be ridden, he will still be my best friend, and will be treated as such. I'm not going to sell him, even if it puts me back in my riding goals. The purpose of this thread is to get outside opinions on what I can do to help him stay sound and comfortable until I can get the vet out.

On another note, other than leg yeild, is there any good (lower level) excersizes to strengthen both forelegs (and hindlegs for that matter) equally? I've noticed that one leg is more muscled than the other.

Our leg yeilds kind of really suck. :lol: We get from point A to point B, but he doesn't move off my leg (working on that), and doesn't cross over in front. (I do release, and am not hanging on my rein, preventing him from crossing over.)

Walk leg yeilds are fairly nice.

[dressagediva2008]

Awww he is a cutie.

I have a mare that is horrifically pigeon toed and she is still sound at the grand old age of 15, although she recently has had some soundness issues as my farrier screwed up her feet.

So just as he has conf issues doesn't necessary mean that he is going to be crippled soon, Get a good farrier that you trust, also invest in either a visit with a good chiro or a massage therapist (even better both as they tend to work well together)

Also even though he is still relatively young I would put him on a good joint supplement to help prevent wear and tear on those joints.

[magnum]

I am no expert by far but as a layperson I see 2 things:

A slight rotation which appears to be MECHANICAL (a good trim would probably take care of it).

A slight calcification on the front of the second phalanx (I think the extensor tendon that does down the front connects there but someone else might know more). This is pretty typical in most horses but can eventually lead to pain at the attachment point.

Keep looking for answers - is there a local experienced person who is very experienced upon who you can rely? I agree with others, tho. Do your best to get the foot in better alignment and keep him in work if the vet thinks it is OK.

Magnum

[Carol Ames]

What do his ankles look like in the Xrays?:eek:

[downthecenterlinetheycome]

No angle X-rays. He flexes sound.

I posted pictures of the new farrier's trim in Horse Care.