Hard Keeper Questions

[*JumpIt*]

Hello!

I was hoping to get some ideas on feeding my hard keeper, I will be talking to my vet about it but since he isn't available till Monday I thought I would consult you guys.

so here are the facts:


9 Yr. Old OTTB Mare
15.3 hands
8 Hours T/O and in a stall at night
Proper Blanketing
Consistent but not heavy work
Usually 5 days a week of 45 min. of w/t/c and light jumping (2' 3" and under)


Current Feed

1/2 Scoop Safe Choice AM & PM - http://www.nutrenaworld.com/Screens/Equine/Safe_Choice.aspx
1/4 Scoop Senior AM & PM - http://www.nutrenaworld.com/Screens/Equine/Life_Design_Senior.aspx
1 Cup Empower Am & PM - http://www.nutrenaworld.com/Screens/Equine/Empower.aspx
0.75oz Farriers Formula AM -http://www.smartpakequine.com/productclass.aspx?productClassid=4675
3 Oz. Black as Knight AM - http://www.smartpakequine.com/ProductClass.aspx?productclassid=62&cmPreserveSource=true&cmPreserveCategory=true
1 Scoop of Beet Pulp AM
Good Quality Hay 24/7


She has lost some weight and I want to keep her from losing more and keep it without making her hot.

These were some ideas I had -

1. Up the Safechoice to 3/4

2. Up the Senior to 1/2

3. Another scoop of Beet Pulp

4. Change brands of feed?

So what do you guys think?

[ptownevt]

How much do your "scoops" weigh? It looks like you might be feeding less than the recommended amount for her. I would consider 45 min. of W/T/C and jumping 5 days a week to be at least a moderate work load. If she has free choice good quality hay, you probably need to increase the concentrates. I wouldn't necessarily change brands of feed. They are good choices, as are many others. If it was my horse I would probably increase the Safe Choice first.

JMHO,
Pam

[jetsmom]

If you haven't done so in the last 6 months, ck/float teeth. Also make sure worming is done on schedule.

I'd increase the senior and add alfalfa pellets.

[*JumpIt*]

If you haven't done so in the last 6 months, ck/float teeth. Also make sure worming is done on schedule.

I'd increase the senior and add alfalfa pellets.

I ment to add that but she her teeth floated in the spring and they were said to in great condition and would not need to be floated for another year. She is on a regular worming schedual.

We use just regular feed scoops I think they are 3 quarts?

I've always heard alfalfa increases hotness, is that true? She has enough energy as it is.

[Rhyadawn]

I'd increase the senior and add alfalfa pellets.

Ditto.


If you get too hot slow down on the feeds, there is a balance.

[vickienme]

I have a TB that is a hard keeper and a 31 yr old Arab mare with long hair,
that is a hard keeper. The feed mix below does a great job and you can
safely feed as much as needed. I will feed 4 scoops at nite and 2 to 4 scoops AM with grass hay. I add 1/2 dry scoop of alfalfa pellets hydrated
to old mare's food. You can add 1 cup whole oats to hydrate with the mix
as well. corn and barley are too hot. Don't recommend them. The BP was told to me years ago by a TB breeder who bred older mares and kept wt on them with it. Since it's slow metabolizing, it is "stick to the ribs" kinda food,
keeps them satisifed and warm in the winter, good for year round of course,
and doesn't make the "hot" energy wise. The digestive supps improve
absorption getting the most out of the food and supplies plenty of b vits
and over all balance for nice calm level headed horse and still plenty energetic.

MY FAVORITE SPECIAL FEED MIX:
I feed this mix once daily. If I have a horse that
needs supplements twice daily I'll hold out one dog food scoop (1qt)
full for next morning feeding.

Per Horse - 1 to 2 cups dry measured BP pellets without molasses,
Hydrate Beet Pulp with 1 to 2 qts hot water, (adjust as needed, fluffy not soppy)
1 ounce or so (up to 2 cups) apple cider vinegar,
from 1 teaspoon up to 3 Tablespoons garlic powder/granulated
per horse, 1/3 cup up to 2/3 cup whole flax seed per horse, 1/2 cup corn oil.

If your horse is not insulin resistant you can add 1 to 2 cups whole oats to the hydration mix and if an oldie you can also add some alfalfa pellets.

Mix into the hydrated mix when ready to feed, 1 cup stabilized rice bran (Satin Finish) per horse,
Prozyme with BG or Sr Prozyme with BG, ABC's Selenium/Vit E, (be sure to check with
your local county extension office to find out if your area is high or low in selenium)
We also have a natural Vit E supplement if your area/hay is high in selenium)
Humic Shale Ore.

Feed 2 to 4 dog food (1 qt) scoops per horse, in my case as much as needed to
help horse regain some wt if they lost alot. Very safe feed mix. Slow metabolizing
so is great in the winter too, keeps them satisfied and warm.

You can top dress with ABC PLUS and ABC HOOF for anyone needing extra.

I'm mixing for 9 to 11 horses usually.


So I'm guessing for one horse. About 2 qts hot water to 1 to 2 cups dry
Measured beet pulp per horse. 1 oz apple cider vinegar, up to
3 T garlic powder/granulated per horse. The garlic and applecider vinegar
will do wonders for their skin health and prevent fly sores, repels knats.

My mixing is in a 5 gal bucket. 2 gallons hot water with
About 1 1/2 to 2 inches in the bottom of 1 gallon jug of
Apple cider vinegar. In the other gallon I put 1 teaspoon per
Horse up to 3 Tablespoons per horse of the garlic and fill
With hot water and shake to dissolve. I use 3 T per horse
Year round of the garlic.

If you are just starting out, go with
1 Teaspoon and build up to 3 Tablespoons over a little time
Allowing the horse to get used to it. Mine love it. Smells
Like Doritos and they lick the buckets clean. You want
The beet pulp after hydrated to be fluffy and damp. Not
Soggy and fully hydrated. No little hard pieces preferably.
I just pour in some Corn Oil and stir it all around and put
the lid on and allow it to hydrate for 4 hours or more. I mix
this in the morning and feed at evening feeding and same some
for next morning when I have horses getting supplements
twice daily. During summer you can up the amt of garlic as needed
up to 3 Tablespoons daily to get your best results. Twice daily is
best during the summer as our bodies use up what we feed it
every 12 hours. During the winter, one time daily is enough and you
can reduce the amt to 1/2 the summer dose if you want to.

During the winter I feed more than I do in the summer, still
Mostly one time per day at dinner to keep them warm through
The nite and not cold or massively hungry in the morning.
I can easily feed as late as noon and not have anyone colicy
Or massively hungry and mad at me. During the summer the
Garlic and applecider vinegar really help with the insects and
I always give them their supplements daily anyway.

NOTE: Never feed this beet pulp dry. It plumps up fast and
Sticks in their throat and they choke. This requires
An ACE shot in the muscle from your vet to allow them
To relax their throat enough for it to go down. (I've
Done this 3 different times so "don't do it", they will
Eventually choke on it and get very distressed and anxious)

The Satin Finish bag says, two and 3 yr old 1# to 1 /2#'S per day
Mature horses based on 1000#'S - 2#'S heavy use down to 1#/day
Not in use horse. Extreme use cases endurance racing, eventing etc.
Custom programs available 1-800-742-3272 Satin Finsh Wilcott Farms, Inc.
P.O. Box 5, Willows, CA 95988

This will bring any horse up to speed condition wise and for an easy
keeper just feed 2 scoops daily of they hydrated mix.

I keep ABC Probi on hand for any gas colic
in the medicine cupboard, is liquid gold to me. I recommend using
a natural wormer rather than chemicals. Chemicals can really tax
an already taxed immune system and so can vaccines. I recommend
using nosodes for immunizing instead. I have access to ABC NOMS fed daily
to deter gut parasites, use the Parasite tonic to clean out any blood parasites. You can use an herbal wormer 5 days a month on the full moon
as the other option. These are just my recommendations,
alternative methods that have been working for me and mine.

[jetsmom]

Alfalfa doesn't make all horses hot. But it should help get weight on.

[tpup]

1/4 scoops and 1/2 scoops don't sound like nearly enough! I would up those slowly. Alfalfa doesn't make my horse hot at all, but the alf. pellets did give him diarrhea. He is now on alf/timothy cubes and loves them.

Even if your horse is on a worming schedule, when was she last fecaled? My horse was on a strict worming schedule and still had 2 positive fecals after his 2 regular wormings for strongyles. Vet recommended a Power Pak and finally the fecal came back negative. Poor guy probably had worms for a while. Do a fecal to be sure.

[Simkie]

That doesn't seem like much feed at all. Why are you feeding Safe Choice AND Senior? I think your horse just needs more food.

I would consolidate to one or the other and begin by feeding the minimum Nutrena recommends, and go up from there.

Just for comparison, my hard keeping mare eats 2 scoops (5 lbs, 6 qts) twice a day plus a cup of oil plus free choice hay.

[magnolia73]

My TB mare eats:
9 lbs of legends pellets (3 scoops)
2lbs rice bran
3/4 scoop of beet pulp (probably 2 scoops after rehydrating)
cup of weight builder
splash of oil and
4-6 flakes of hay a day

Take a scale and weigh your feed. Prior to September, my horse was getting the recomended amount of pellets for a small (800 lb) horse in light work. 3 lbs a day. She's an 17H TB in moderate work. Oops. What she eats now is what a horse her size is recommended to eat. She lost a lot of weight while I messed around with food. I had underestimated the quality of pasture.

Now she is putting on weight. Incidentally, I had a fecal done on her and she had a parasite- the treatment was antibiotics. The vet said that it interfered with nutrient absorption. So I don't know if it was that we hit on the right mix or if she was sick the whole time.

[Buffyblue]

And my TB mare gets: 3 qt. scoop AM & PM of Pennfield's Fibregized. 1 cup of rice bran AM. Probios. Farrier's Formula. Strongid C2x. Turnout all day on grass. 3-4 flakes of timothy mix hay at night.

I'd say your horse needs more food. I also love the rice bran! I only give her a maintenance of one cup per day now but had her up to maybe 3-4 times that initially (after starting slowly with a little and getting her used to it). She's pretty round - you can check her pictures in the link in my signature if you want to.

[SSFLandon]

I just want to say that I did not like Safechoice. I went to barn and that was my only option and from reading about it it seemed OK....but, then I noticed my horses were losing weight. ALL of them (10-15) total. Some I had for years and they had eaten the same amount through various feed changes until the Safechoice. I almost had to feed double to most of them. After I moved about a year later I started Stradegy and literally took them all back about 1/2 of there feed. Some were on 8lbs 2x per day and went to 4lbs 2x per day and looked fat. Nothing else changed for the most part. They were on a bit more grass at the recent farm but, in the past were not so overall I have to blame the SC.

[fourmares]

Sounds like you need a bigger scoop.

[CamdenLab]

Add alfalfa either in hay form or pellets/cubes. It may or may not make her hot, it doesn't make my horse hot in the least bit. But it sure helps him gain and keep weight!

I would exchange the Black as Knight for Omega Horseshine. You will save money and the ingredients are better, even some that will help with weight issues. Also, some people swear by this as a hoof supplement, so you may be able to nix the Farrier's Formula as well. (Look up Omega Horseshine on Smart Pak).

Why so many grains?

Your regime sounds too complex. I think you could simplify it by taking away the grains and adding rice bran or beet pulp. Maybe some oil with that.

My guy is similar to yours, same age, height, breed, turn-out and blanketing, etc. He is big, about 1,200 lbs (you don't mention your mare's build). He is in a bit less work (no jumping, riding about four days per week), however, so I would imagine he is a harder keeper than your mare. This is what he currently receives:

Free choice alfalfa/grass mix.
4 lbs of rice bran daily
4 cups of alfalfa cubes or pellets (in the rice bran)
Omega Horseshine
U-Gard
Vitamins (includes biotin and selenium)
MSM
Baking soda (recommended by chiropractor for muscle soreness)

Did you check your mare for stomack ulcers or is she showing signs? Could be contributing to being a hard keeper. About 70% of OTTBs have ulcers. If she does or may have them, alfalfa is good for them and grains are not as they are acidic. I have my guy on an "ulcer diet" though it's confirmed that he has them. I just assume he does based on the numbers (he's an OTTB, too).

[murphyluv]

Ditto the Omega horseshine.

Isn't 4 lbs a lot of Rice Bran? I had a horse that came in eating 6 lbs. of Rice Bran, with crappy pelleted grain and also beet pulp, had HORRIBLE diarrea, skinny as a rail, we changed her over to our diet (less rice bran, more beet pulp, oats/barley) and she actually gained weight, diarrea dried up. Took her on a long haul to a 3 week horse show- she ended up colicing pretty badly, colitis, peritinitis, and the worst ulcers vet had ever seen. (this horse NEVER showed signs of ulcers- internalized everything). Vet said it probably started with the imbalanced diet. After we treated her for the ulcers she gained even more weight.

OP have you checked for ulcers?

[QHmom]

We have a 40 year old pony and 29 year old retired AQHA show horse. Both are on Southern States senior 3 times a day, but the 29 year old also is on:
1 cup Calf manna
1scoop msm
2 flakes alfalfa/orchard grass
1 scoop senior 3xs a day

he is pig fat!!!