Parelli Farrier..."Healthy Stride"....Pics added

[Daydream Believer]

http://healthy-stride.net/difference.html

Has anyone ever heard of this "method" or this farrier?

Edited to Add:

It have been brought to my intention that some people who read this post as it as originally stated came to the conclusion that the barn where the Parelli endorsed Natural Stride Farrier was working in this area is a "Parelli barn." I wish to clarify that the barn is a Parelli-friendly barn and it is not required to practice Parelli methods to board there.

[BornToRide]

Healthy Stride shoes or trims according to the entire equine body instead of just the hoof. Our goal is to achieve perfect posture and symmetry (Zero Balance™), allowing the horse to move freely and soundly.
This is a potential warning flag to me because you cannot achieve perfect posture through trimming, only through correct training which in turn will have a positive affect on hoof wear anf form! :yes: The trimming should assist this process, but cannot create it. I still believe that the hoof capsule primarily needs to be balanced according to internal hoof structures - period!

[ptownevt]

Oh my freaking word! They're going to take over the world.

[Daydream Believer]

The trimming should assist this process, but cannot create it. I still believe that the hoof capsule primarily needs to be balanced according to internal hoof structures - period!

Agreed...In my experience and training, the hoof structure and what it takes to create the correct movement dynamics working within the diameters of the hoof's structure will determine how I trim/balance the hoof. 99% of the time, doing so, helps horses with poor posture and bad movement. Unlike some people, :rolleyes: I would never make a correction so quickly as to harm/hurt/draw blood to achieve that goal.

[BornToRide]

Yes, one can definitely screw up the posture by leaving heels and toes too long for example, but the shoulder differences shown on the website are primarily related to side dominance and not how the horse is trimmed. The dominant shoulder generally shows more muscle developemt for obvious reasons - it is simply used more :winkgrin:

Most body deviations suggested on the evaluation form are usually created by musculo-skeletal imbalances that may or may not be exacerbated by hoof form!

[WalkInTheWoods]

It is a slick professional looking website but this just sounds snake-oily to me. What if the horse needs a chiropractic adjustment to level out its back end ? Instead they go with the trimmer who "levels out" the backend thru trimming. It sounds to me like this could set off a chain of events that would be really complicated to diagnose and fix.

[deltawave]

Is anyone surprised? :rolleyes: Next it will be a line of feeds, mark my words.

[LMH]

You really do NOT want to get me started on this.

I have no first hand experience but I have heard about his 'theory' and seen the less than stellar results on his work on the Parelli horses.


He shims part of a foot, one foot, some feet, whatever to 'balance the body.' He is one of those that lifts one foot to compensate for a too short leg.

It just so happens that MANY horses have too short legs these days :rolleyes::rolleyes:

A few weeks back I saw a horse that was shod using this method and he was just lame. Crippled looking-poor owner was clueless.

I get the Savvy Club DVDs and now spend too hours STARING at the sad feet on the Parelli horses..you just don't want to know.:no:

For the record, to my knowledge he is simply endorsed by Parelli's since that is who they currently use-but I am pretty sure he 'stands on his own'

[BornToRide]

He shims part of a foot, one foot, some feet, whatever to 'balance the body.' He is one of those that lifts one foot to compensate for a too short leg.Just as I feared would happen. The shorter leg comes from being pulled up at the shoulder. Wedges won't cure/fix this, only bodywork and exercises that will help balance the body out......BIG SIGH

[LMH]

Just as I feared would happen. The shorter leg comes from being pulled up at the shoulder. Wedges won't cure/fix this, only bodywork and exercises that will help balance the body out......BIG SIGH

I know.:no::sadsmile::cry::(:mad:

(well it could also be saddle fit or rider balance that creates issues-BUT the shims are just NOT the answer!!!)

[BornToRide]

Yep :yes:

[Rick Burten]

What a crock. PT Barnum would be proud!

They are advocating/performing no differently than any well trained and qualified farrier(I can't speak for those of the BUA persuasion because, well, because I'm a farrier. :) )

From a customer standpoint, filling out a form is good PR.

Every horse, new client or old client, that walks up onto my mats gets a full look-over and if the owner or his/her agent is present, they are questioned about anything I find out of the ordinary. If not present, then it gets noted on their bill.

I suppose that if you are "Parelli inclined", then having a farrier who has been blessed by Parelli would give you lots of warm fuzzies and strokes and lift a great burden from your mind because you'd know your horse was in good hoof care hands. Or not.

Fortunately for me, my clients/customers are, generally speaking, not so easily duped.

[LMH]

Rick, if you have never seen the results of the shimming solution, you would just be :eek::eek::eek:

Honestly-talk about making a horse SO body sore you want to cry.

This could actually be another example of how to unify good farriers and BUA.

[matryoshka]

I have no idea whether he's better at his job than anybody else. BUT, a number of the trimming protocols out there do tend to ignore the rest of the horse (especially the legs) and go for a "perfect hoof". If this guy hadn't attached the Parrelli name to his ideas would you like it better?

Yes, a good trimmer/farrier takes the entire horse into account. This guy has a slick way of selling it.

Personally, I'd be curious to watch him work and see what I think of his results. I'll bring my own beverage, though. ;)

[LMH]

It has NOTHING to do with the Parelli endorsement as far as I am concerned-I have seen one horse in person and several on DVDs that are the result of this concept.

Really--just run run run Forrest run.

[matryoshka]

LMH, have any pictures? I'm familiar with Esco Buff's ideas about limb length disparity leading to club feet in the front. He watched the horse move down the aisle from many viewing points, including above to try to pinpoint what was wrong in the horse's body. The horse kind of snaked along in that nothing was straight.

He then wedged the hind feet (determined the problem originated in the hindquarts) to change his posture. Only then did he shoe the fronts. I was unable to stay for that part so I don't know whether either front foot was wedged. The owner was supposed to have chiropractic work done ASAP and massage, and over time, the need for wedges would go away and the foot would stop trying to compensate for a problem in the shoulder--that is, it would stop being a club foot.

The owner wasn't able to follow the protocol and the local farrier thought it was a crock, so I couldn't say whether it would have worked. Bummer.

Is this what you are talking about?

[matryoshka]

The healthy-stride guy does shimming? Somehow, I missed that on his web site.

[Daydream Believer]

Rick, a well trained "BUA" does the same thing. We take into account the whole horse, their posture, how they move, diet, saddle fit, etc.... :cool:

[MistyBlue]

So when do we see Parelli Vets? :lol:

[LMH]

The healthy-stride guy does shimming? Somehow, I missed that on his web site.

Yes he does shimming-he will shim say, the lateral side of the Right rear...or the medial side of the right front-or the entire foot...all depending on where the body is not balanced.

It sounds good on paper but if you SAW these horses move you would shudder.

I had photos that someone emailed to me of Remmer (Linda's horse) and I have the (I think) September and October Savvy club DVDs where you can REALLY see the impact on the movement.

I did not save the photos of Remmer.

If you do a search on youtube of the Parelli tour promotions or clips from tour stops from the past year or so you may be able to catch a glimpse of his feet.

They are so deformed looking (or were-I have not seen anything recent) that it just is jaw dropping.

A fellow hoof care friend saw him live in August and was in shock at how bad they bad.

And as I mentioned I saw one horse with half shim on-he was nearly crippled on sand and even worse when his feet hit concrete.

I honestly could not tell you what it does long term-BUT the problem *I* have is the discomfort during the process-it makes a horse totally body sore and short strided for the 'long term good' when it can be addressed without doing it.

The problem as BTR mentions-and I really agree (with the additions I noted)-is the body balance is not fixed through the body!

It is NO different in my eyes than removing the bars to decontract a hoof. Wrong solution for the issue.

I actually have an article on my website that I wrote for The Horses Hoof that talks about hoof imbalances as a reflection of body imbalances-granted it focuses on bare hooves but the concepts should NOT be news to anyone with horses-bare or shod.

This is not barefoot biased...I am really certain any of our well respected and vocal farriers on this forum would agree with what I concluded from what I saw.

Someone may want to run a search on horseshoes-I can bet you it has been discussed over there.

[Kementari]

Is anyone surprised? :rolleyes: Next it will be a line of feeds, mark my words.

You mean there isn't one already? Someone should alert good ol' Pat to the possibility right away! :lol:

[Guilherme]

The approach is half-assed backwards. The foot is the result of conformation, not the cause. If you start messing with the foot to "correct" conformation (at least after a few weeks of age) you'll cause many more problems than you'll solve.

G.

[BornToRide]

the foot would stop trying to compensate for a problem in the shoulder--that is, it would stop being a club foot.

This is generally not a problem in the shoulder, but a problem of side dominance and how the horse prefers to use itself. This can only be correctedly by strengthening the horse's weaker side to balance the dominant and weaker side more. So-called club feet or clubby looking hooves are generally found on a horse's non-dominant side because that hoof is not loaded as much as the dominant hoof. The more upright the hoof is, the more unbalanced a horse generally is side to side.

Humans are no different - our dominant hand tends to be larger and more developed because we tend to use it more. Do we shim the non-dominant hand because of it or put it in some sort of other contraption for support??! - No, of course not.


The foot is the result of conformation, not the cause
Not just - muscle imbalances also play a role :yes:

[alteration81]

You mean there isn't one already? Someone should alert good ol' Pat to the possibility right away! :lol:

there actually is a system of feeding that he does- I vaguely remember someone using it. A bunch of crock.

[BornToRide]

Yes he does shimming-he will shim say, the lateral side of the Right rear...or the medial side of the right front-or the entire foot...all depending on where the body is not balanced.
:eek: Good Lord, my gelding has near perfect front end conformation, but has a tendency to move base narrow, most likely due to tighter pectoral muscles which is pretty common in many horses (they tend to be stronger than the lateral muscles).

I watched him for 30 minutes in the pasture once - over 90% of the time he perfectly rolls the front hooves over the lateral towards the medial edge. This causes the medial edge to flare slightly more, as the lateral edge takes most of the initial impact. He has done this all is life and is perfectly sound. I can only shudder to think what shimming the outside would do to his body and joints......

In addition I believe that horse's hooves were designed to twist and distort in various ways to accomodate uneven terrain - after all our ankles can be rather flexible side to side and up and down too - make them more static and they will become mor prone to injury! Taking this flexibility away from the hoof or modifying it in some artificial way can only make things worse!

[JLR1]

A woman at the barn I board at is a Parelli cult member and attended a Healthy Stride Clinic a few weeks ago. She prefers her horses to be barefoot and therefore did not agree with most of the concepts. She even said that Linda and Pat's horses feet look awful....maybe there is hope for this woman after all! That shimming-business sounds like a concept from their god-awful saddles that need to be shimmed to fit!

[Guilherme]

Is it how a horse's foot looks or how it functions that is important? While the two may not be mutually exclusive neither are they always congruent.

Last time our farrier was here we were discussing toe length. I agree with Mr. Stovall that maintaining maximum biomechanical efficiency is the way to go. Fortunately in the Marchador horse there is little pressure to conform to some arbitrary gait standard. This means no pressure to use devices, trimming, etc. to get a desired way of going. I noted that as compared to a lot of QHs the MM horse has a longer toe. We then did some compare and contrast looks and came to the conclusion that in the MM horse there has been some selection for a longer toe length. If he were to take the toe to the length of a QH he'd sore the foot for sure.

He also noted that heel height was not a high as in some of the QHs we looked at. Again, this seems to be part of the selective breeding done to encourage the marcha and not the trot or pace.

This reinforced, for me, the concept that not only is each horse different, but that different types also exist. The Marchador horse flows from the Alter Real stud in Portugal and those horses trace their lines back for many centuries. There has been a BUNCH of very selective breeding.

Those who come along and declare that there is only One, True Way to trim and/or shoe a horse get my immediate attention (and cause me to check the location of my wallet and watch).

G.

[danosaur]

I was once told by a barefoot farrier that he could cure navicular with special trimming. Which made absolutely no sense to me, and I had to walk out of the barn so he wouldn't see me laughing.

[LMH]

I was once told by a barefoot farrier that he could cure navicular with special trimming. Which made absolutely no sense to me, and I had to walk out of the barn so he wouldn't see me laughing.

Well it depends. Barefoot is not going to 'heal' bony changes but getting the foot in balance sure can eliminate navicular pain.

SO healed? Maybe not technically. Sound? Certainly possible.

[Auventera Two]

This could actually be another example of how to unify good farriers and BUA.

Leah - for god sake PLEASE do not refer to us as BUA. It's a horrible derrogatory term coined by a few farriers on horseshoes.com. I am a TRIMMER, and so are you, we are not "BUA".

[Auventera Two]

there actually is a system of feeding that he does- I vaguely remember someone using it. A bunch of crock.

The Parelli system has some good things to offer for a lot of horses. There are some really good trainers and horses. But I don't agree with much of what they do. A Parelli trainer told me last year that all horses should eat only oats and straight grass hay, and they should never ever be vaccinated or wormed. They should never receive any kind of antibiotics or other chemicals or medications and only homeopathic treatments are truly "safe."

This guy then proceeded to tell me to "stop looking like a predator because you're terrifying your horse" as I stood there holding the draped lead rope and she stood there with a hind foot cocked and sleeping.

So bizarre. It's a weird ass cult, for sure. :confused:

[Catersun]

I'm not familair with shimming a horse... so those that are.. can I liken it to adding orthotics to humans or lifts for an anatomically short leg? Note that you would NEVER start someone out with either one of these full time... you start a person out slowly for a few minutes and build up to hours and eventually to complete transfer to fulltime with the change.... humans get bodysore from these kind of immediate changes too.

How is shimming applied? Not defending.. I'm just curious cause I would think if applied correctly and slowly over a period of time it may be useful in some cases.

[Tree]

I went to one of the Healthy Stride clinics hosted by a Vet practice in Jupiter, NC. A client has attended one since then and it sounds like they changed the format since the one I went to.

It was a one day deal starting with a lecture to help people understand this guy's ideas about balancing hooves. There were a number of local Farriers, Vets, a Trimmer (your's truly) and horse owners in attendance. Following lunch they'd lined up 4 horses to be worked on using the method (2 shod, 2 only trimmed). The horses to be shod were first. Each was observed at the walk directly away and back and then looked at while standing...all done on a level paved surface. The one with the worst hooves was taken into the Vet clinic and a full series of digital x-rays were made. While the Office Vet prepared the equipment the visiting Vets got busy setting the horse up on blocks (and stacked books) so that it stood higher than the floor. The x-rays revealed a number of coffin bone conditions. Two feet had some well developed side bone and negative plane coffin bone. Following review of the x-rays the horse was then moved to the portico where the balance wedging and shoeing began. There was a flurry of activity during the shoeing portion of the program and then came the trimming of the two horses which was over with rather quickly, comparitively speaking.

In a nutshell, the man's idea of balancing the feet was akin to what you do if you have a table that rocks...you just shim the shorter table leg with something to make it stop rocking. This was the actual analogy he used too. Well, furniture and horses are not that much alike, IMO.

The first horse had lateral imbalances in both hinds and hi/low fronts. The lateral heels were crushed and contracted while the medial sides were high. So the man shimmed the crushed heels to level up the hind feet. It's hard to remember but I believe the low foot was wedged up to match the opposite fore.

It would have been great if I could have seen this same horse some time later to see how this approached worked out. The immediate results appeared to be good but would they stay that way. I've gone back to read reports that other horses did not remain sound. That's what I was expecting.

From what I've been told, these clinics now include opportunities for attendees to trim feet. The people promoting these clinics are in to PNH. I have friends in AL that were all too familiar with this guy didn't have any good things to say about his shoeing practices before he started doing the Parelli's horses. These same friends attended a big horse expo in AL where the Parellis were featured and said Linda's big WB was moving very short-strided for a horse of its size.

I was not impressed by the shoeing or trim demos. I did enjoy seeing the digital x-rays and lunch was good.

Tree

[matryoshka]

It would have been great if I could have seen this same horse some time later to see how this approached worked out. The immediate results appeared to be good but would they stay that way. I've gone back to read reports that other horses did not remain sound. That's what I was expecting.
This is the crux. Some things that are okay immediately after you've finished are not okay the next day or the next week.

The idea sort of makes sense when one considers what is done for humans. BUT, horses are not humans and can't give us the same feedback. I guess he's using shims to align the bony column? The problem is that these bones aren't necessarily symmetrical, so wouldn't it be akin to trying to fix a conformational problem after a horse is done growing? The "fix" is likely to cause more problems for the horse than the conformational default.

[boston's mom]

I was once told by a barefoot farrier that he could cure navicular with special trimming. Which made absolutely no sense to me, and I had to walk out of the barn so he wouldn't see me laughing.

My navicular gelding is 100% sound barefoot and goes lame in corrective shoes.... Obviously he is not cured, but he IS sound.....

I just use a "regular" farriar. I am especially thankful for him when I see threads like these about the crazy things people are trying with their horses' feet:eek:

I should probably offer to pay him more:lol:

[BornToRide]

My navicular gelding is 100% sound barefoot and goes lame in corrective shoes.... Obviously he is not cured, but he IS sound.....

How about he is cured when he's bare and it is actually the corrective shoeing that makes him lame again ?! It is quite possible, is it not?

[boston's mom]

Well, technically he is not "cured".... He is navicular in 1 foot due to an accident and the underlying disfunction still exists in the foot, and always will (I have the vet bills and x-rays to prove it:lol:)

However, for my purposes, he is cured. I was told he would be unridable after his accident, and he is proving all the vets wrong!

It was actually my "traditional" farriar that suggested we pull my horse's shoes and try him barefoot. This is why I get so aggravated at this "barefoot" VS. "shod" metality. Good hoofcare professionals are in it for the good of the horse, which is why this Parelli stuff makes me nuts....

[tkhawk]

How does it work-do they actually endorse farriers? Are they levels you have to climb up? Or is it just some endorsment the Parellis give out like a celebrity endorses perfume?

[murphyluv]

I was once told by a barefoot farrier that he could cure navicular with special trimming. Which made absolutely no sense to me, and I had to walk out of the barn so he wouldn't see me laughing.

There was actually an article that JUST came out in Equus about that. It actually talked about a new movement towards that, instead of using bar shoes and wedges and such. It said that using those then puts pressure on the toes, etc, causing more pain. Which I have heard- that bar shoes, wedges will temporarily cause the horse to get better, but the worse with time.
Gave an example of a police horse with navicular, they went to barefoot trimming, horse is now sound. I'm sure someone could explain the whole theory better than me, but just saying, there seems to be a bit more awareness.

[LMH]

How does it work-do they actually endorse farriers? Are they levels you have to climb up? Or is it just some endorsment the Parellis give out like a celebrity endorses perfume?

The latter....just something they are currently endorsing. Like Preifert panels, Winnie's Cookies and APF.

No levels, no exclusivity to Parelli-ANYONE can have shoe shims!

[Guilherme]

When a celebrity endorses anything you can bet that there are Big Bucks involved. ;)

G.

[Rick Burten]

Leah - for god sake PLEASE do not refer to us as BUA. It's a horrible derrogatory term coined by a few farriers on horseshoes.com. I am a TRIMMER, and so are you, we are not "BUA".

Demonstrably, you believe in the concept of "barefoot above all else". That you are now willing to use boots, equicast, or in some instances recommend a client seek out the services of a qualified farrier, it changes not one bit the base from which you operate.

And, while the origination of the term may be as you say, it too matters not a bit. It is what it is, and it is accurate in describing your(the collective) mindset. What you are not, is a part of the lunatic fringe of the BUA movement.

[Tree]

I guess he's using shims to align the bony column?

Not only to align the boney column but to level the hips or shoulders...whatever was off was going to be affected by shimming.


The problem is that these bones aren't necessarily symmetrical, so wouldn't it be akin to trying to fix a conformational problem after a horse is done growing? The "fix" is likely to cause more problems for the horse than the conformational default.

That's a definite possibility and then it may also boil down to deviations in angles linked to a horse's way of trying to avoid a painful area in a foot. Shimming won't address the underlying issue(s).

Tree

[Rick Burten]

Not only to align the boney column but to level the hips or shoulders...whatever was off was going to be affected by shimming.

Demonstrably, shimming the front end to level the shoulders is not going to work if the horse does not want it to work. Extra credit, Why?

The hind end is a different matter, though shimming to level the hips/pelvis, without fully understanding the consequences is more than likely going to result in a sore horse.

[Foxtrot's]

...and you can learn all this in two weekend clinics plus a lot of $$$'s.

[LMH]

Demonstrably, shimming the front end to level the shoulders is not going to work if the horse does not want it to work. Extra credit, Why?

The hind end is a different matter, though shimming to level the hips/pelvis, without fully understanding the consequences is more than likely going to result in a sore horse.

No collar bone-no fixed shoulder;)

[Cindyg]

A woman at the barn I board at is a Parelli cult member and attended a Healthy Stride Clinic a few weeks ago. She prefers her horses to be barefoot and therefore did not agree with most of the concepts. She even said that Linda and Pat's horses feet look awful....maybe there is hope for this woman after all!

A lot of us us Parelli-types are appalled at this phase that Linda's going through. A lot of us were horrified to see the Parelli name on that website. And we are equally unhappy at how Linda's horses' feet look.

[Cindyg]

A Parelli trainer told me last year that all horses should eat only oats and straight grass hay, and they should never ever be vaccinated or wormed. They should never receive any kind of antibiotics or other chemicals or medications and only homeopathic treatments are truly "safe."

So bizarre. It's a weird ass cult, for sure. :confused:

A certified Parelli instructor?

This is not a Parelli teaching. I'm not saying he/she (mentioned above) didn't say it to you (this is a philosophy going around, though not coming from the Parelli's); but this is just his/her opinion. Not part of the Parelli program.

[George Myers]

A Parelli trainer told me last year that all horses should eat only oats and straight grass hay, and they should never ever be vaccinated or wormed. They should never receive any kind of antibiotics or other chemicals or medications and only homeopathic treatments are truly "safe."
This guy then proceeded to tell me to "stop looking like a predator because you're terrifying your horse" as I stood there holding the draped lead rope and she stood there with a hind foot cocked and sleeping.
So bizarre. It's a weird ass cult, for sure. :confused:

You sure you aren't confusing Parelli with Strasser vis a vis the oats, grass hay, anti vaccine/drugs thing? Like a lot of Europeans Strasser is very into homeopathics and she is against chemicals unless unavoidable - although I believe she will use them if the situation calls for it. I think its really sensible to be wary of the standard palliative and prophylactic use of drugs.

I find those principles (the predator thing aside) to be a pretty commonsense approach : straight simple hard feed (I use a variety of simple grains and seeds personally) which avoids the added sugar, protein boosters like soya meal, and the fillers, antioxidants etc that manufactured feeds are full of. That plus good grass hay made from a variety of grasses and a salt block - what else do you need?

And save the chemicals for when they are really needed.

What's weird about that?

[BornToRide]

I find those principles (the predator thing aside) to be a pretty commonsense approach : straight simple hard feed (I use a variety of simple grains and seeds personally) which avoids the added sugar, protein boosters like soya meal, and the fillers, antioxidants etc that manufactured feeds are full of. That plus good grass hay made from a variety of grasses and a salt block - what else do you need? Actually this approach can backfire in sugar sensitive horses - even oats or other hard NSC feeds, can spell trouble for horses, especially easy keeper type horses! Seen it too many times!

[Beasmom]

OK, what's BUA? I don't read the shoes vs barefoot threads except for the trainwrecks and slapdowns. Did a search and the term is not showing up...

[LMH]

The Parelli's used to endorse the Pat Coleby diet.

NOW they feed (the last I paid attention) some variation and mix of alfalfa cubes, oats, wheat bran and black oil sunflower seeds, Parelli Essentials (herbal digestive aid that includes the illegal St John's Wort) and Parelli Vitals (with enough iron to make steel rods).

The Parelli nutrition program is not one I agree with (not that they consulted me:lol:)-again the last *I* heard, Linda's second horse Allure is on thyroid meds-both he and Remmer are very cresty with fat deposits, etc.

Rem has improved a 'wee' bit since she has been having lessons with WAZ but these horses could use a diet change.

Also, another reason shimming HALF a foot is not the brightest idea is the hoof has some fluidity to it-you can shim half a foot, leave it for a bit, come back and the hairline will have displaced/ lifted. etc...so it is not like the whole body lifts-part of it is taken up by the hoof making adjustments.

[LMH]

Added-again my last information is they do not vaccinate-I actually have never heard any protocol on deworming but would assume not often if at all.

[Guilherme]

OK, what's BUA? I don't read the shoes vs barefoot threads except for the trainwrecks and slapdowns. Did a search and the term is not showing up...

BUA is short for "barefoot uber alles." That's "pidgin German" for "no shoes, ever."

G.

[Woodland]

Parelli has now covered all the bases - he is evil incarnate - mooohahahaha


I think this is potentially dangerous to the horse. You can not correct everything through a trim - but you sure can screw a horse up!

[Guilherme]

Parelli has now covered all the bases - he is evil incarnate - mooohahahaha


I think this is potentially dangerous to the horse. You can not correct everything through a trim - but you sure can screw a horse up!

My original equine background is with TN Walkers. I know just how much a farrier and trimmer can screw up a horse. That's why I subscribe to the "funtional approach" to equine hoof care, not the "philosophical approach" so common in "barefoot advocates."

Again, the foot is part of the horse's overall conformation and the result of that conformation and the movement it generates. The best farriers I know understand this principle and use it. The dunderheaded lummoxes (be they "iron hangers" or "trimmers") do not.

G.

[Tree]

Added-again my last information is they do not vaccinate-I actually have never heard any protocol on deworming but would assume not often if at all.

Did they have titers done then?

Tree

[Daydream Believer]

BUA is short for "barefoot uber alles." That's "pidgin German" for "no shoes, ever."

G.

Literally it stands for Barefoot Uber Allies (Barefoot above all else) and it has connotations of Naziism. So calling someone a BUA is akin to calling them a Barefoot Nazi. I can't stand it either.

[Daydream Believer]

Again, the foot is part of the horse's overall conformation and the result of that conformation and the movement it generates. The best farriers I know understand this principle and use it. The dunderheaded lummoxes (be they "iron hangers" or "trimmers") do not.

G.

I hate to break it to you, but good trimmers use the same principles of evaluating conformation and movement as good farriers...Just because someone is a trimmer does not make them a dunderheaded lummox despite your obvious bias against us.

How in the hell did this thread go from discussing a Parelli endorsed bad joke of a farrier running around crippling horsess to having to listen to anti barefoot bullshit as usual? Give it a rest...

[Rick Burten]

No collar bone-no fixed shoulder;)

You've been paying attention, done your due dilligence and you win the Kewpie Doll. Congratulations!!

[7HL]

I hate to break it to you, but good trimmers use the same principles of evaluating conformation and movement as good farriers...Just because someone is a trimmer does not make them a dunderheaded lummox despite your obvious bias against us.

How in the hell did this thread go from discussing a Parelli endorsed bad joke of a farrier running around crippling horsess to having to listen to anti barefoot bullshit as usual? Give it a rest...


So why is it not ok to bash Parelli as usual and not take on those that some regard as BUA?

It's seems to be par for the course, its just they seem to be coming together in the same thread. Some have made up their minds about both subjects and hop on the bandwagon, whenever Parelli or barefoot are discussed. There is plenty of criticism to go around on both subjects. However, there are people that happen to use Parelli methods and those that believe in barefoot only for their horses that are getting some undue criticism. This happens in many discussions here and on other forums.

[Rick Burten]

BUA is short for "barefoot uber alles." That's "pidgin German" for "no shoes, ever."


It actually translates to "Barefoot more than(above) everything else" and is reflective of the mindset of a group of individuals who, in the extreme, would it seems, prefer that horses go through any manner of suffering and/or disability rather than suffer the ignominity of having orthotics ammended to their hooves. Those not so absolutist inclined, who would still prefer and preach that horses should be barefoot with only a few exceptions, are nonetheless willing members of the BUA movement.

[Rick Burten]

Literally it stands for Barefoot Uber Allies (Barefoot above all else) and it has connotations of Naziism. So calling someone a BUA is akin to calling them a Barefoot Nazi.

Totally incorrect.

"uber alles (correctly written in German "ueber alles") has nothing to do with the Nazis, but was a line of a poem written in 1841 which was used for the German National Anthem. It does not translate as "above all" (that would be "ueber allen") but rather "more than anything else", as in "ich liebe Dich ueber alles in der Welt" (I love you more than anything else in the world). A misleading translation was purposely chosen by the Allies during the second world war for propagada purposes. "

[Tree]

My original equine background is with TN Walkers. I know just how much a farrier and trimmer can screw up a horse. That's why I subscribe to the "funtional approach" to equine hoof care, not the "philosophical approach" so common in "barefoot advocates."

G.

I have never heard of any barefoot methods based in philosophy. Are you sure it was or was it physiology instead?

Tree

[Daydream Believer]

So why is it not ok to bash Parelli as usual and not take on those that some regard as BUA?



The thread is not about barefoot versus shoes yet some people always seem ready to take it there. :confused: They want to pick a fight for some ridiculous childish reason...read Ricks post on BUA's and you'll see what I mean. He lumps everyone who trims over using traditional farriery as a member of a fanatic movement while most of us on here who trim are not fanatics...not even close. Truly we are on the same team in helping horses and most of us do work with farriers and vets but it's not "fun" to recognize our similarities...only to capitalize and hype on our differences. That is what I'm talking about.

The thread is about this Healthy Stride style of trimming and shoeing which has nothing to do with any barefoot trimmer I know of. All I'm asking is for folks to stay on topic.

[JSwan]

I'm trying to figure out how you can trim a horse with a carrot stick. :winkgrin:

[7HL]

The thread is about this Healthy Stride style of trimming and shoeing which has nothing to do with any barefoot trimmer I know of. All I'm asking is for folks to stay on topic.

Agreed... However what does it have to do with Parelli training methods either or those that use them. This farrier happens to be a farrier that the Parelli's have used. Lets not forget the Walter Zettl according to his website also appears to like this guy as well.

Some have a vested interests to take the thread in a different direction then you intended, you can't prevent that. Tree appears to be eagerly posting in this thread, it distracts people from posting in the other thread about hers and DR Strassers techniques.

It might be nice if the OP had some control of direction of a thread, discussion, but everyone knows that is impossible.

[Tree]

I'm trying to figure out how you can trim a horse with a carrot stick. :winkgrin:


I don't know about carrot sticks but the Healthy Stride (getting back on topic), guy had some sort of metal hackamore gizmo set up to get the horses to stand the hell still.

I'd better state that I have seen some fine Parelli training done but not enough of it. During the Healthy Stride clinic, several of the Parelli student horses needed to be "reined in". The PNH horse owners were just letting them wander around with those 20' ropes they use for leads. Now to me, this was just poor examples of PNH. So the Healthy Stride guy took over by getting out the metal nose band contraption (attched to a browband headstall) and the next time the horses went to wander, he gave them a HELLO bump and that was that. You can't get any work done if the horse isn't going to help by standing still.

Tree

[LMH]

Did they have titers done then?

Tree

I don't recall...*leah scrolls through mental rolodex for recall of mention of titers*

mmm...I honestly don't recall.

[Daydream Believer]

Agreed...
It might be nice if the OP had some control of direction of a thread, discussion, but everyone knows that is impossible.

The only ones with any control are the mods and while I think these mods are much better than the old ones, until they get tough on people who only want to pick fights and pull threads down into pissing matches between trimmers and shoers, I'm not sure it will help. All it does to go "there" is to turn people off to discussing the OT and discussing hoof care in general.

[JSwan]

The only ones with any control are the mods and while I think these mods are much better than the old ones, until they get tough on people who only want to pick fights and pull threads down into pissing matches between trimmers and shoers, I'm not sure it will help. All it does to go "there" is to turn people off to discussing the OT and discussing hoof care in general.

Thank you, DB. I'm not guiltless when it comes to being crabby sometimes - but I usually stay away from hoof threads because they always end up being pissing contests. It's such a learning opportunity for those of us who consider ourselves weak on this subject, it's a shame.

[irishcas]

It actually translates to "Barefoot more than(above) everything else" and is reflective of the mindset of a group of individuals who, in the extreme, would it seems, prefer that horses go through any manner of suffering and/or disability rather than suffer the ignominity of having orthotics ammended to their hooves.

Rick, I assume you are talking about the strasserites, martha o's and some double aaers? I don't want to assume with you, ya know :)

Because, while I believe barefoot is best and healthiest for horses, I don't make any of them suffer. I do fix on orthotics, just don't use nails or metal....

This is a topic discussed heavily over and over. There are enough types of hoof protection that are not metal shoes that can be used to help horses thru pathologies and during riding.

Of course another problem is husbandry so therefore some horses (owners really) are going to need shoes. Breeding horses for speed, head set, blah blah blah creates genetically shitty feet. You can monkey with boots or you can use shoes, whatever.

The answer is we should all ban together to eliminate the crappy, horrible farrier work that many of us see day in and day out. We should ban together to eliminate the over trimmers, the strasserites and such.

We should ban together to promote knowledge of anatomy, make it mandatory for working on feet. I was on horseshoes.com recently where one bonehead said you don't need to know anatomy to work on horses feet :rolleyes: I see examples of this type of work all the time.

We should be shoulder to shoulder to help the horses, not sniping at each other and using slangs and slurs that build resentment. I know it gives you pleasure to throw it around, but it is not useful.

There is ENOUGH business for those who want to shoe and those who want to use barefoot as a means. As long as improvement and overall health is being taken into the horse horses account then we are on the right track. What happened with ThirdCharms ex client is deplorable and I don't think any good hoofcare professional would condone this.

We have all made mistakes and hurt horses, the majority of us (i.e. not strasserites) realize it was a mistake and attempt to not repeat it. We don't want horses hobbling around, we wan to improve their health or maintain it, not damage it.

Guilherme: So helpful, why not show us some of that fancy TN Walking feet that are balanced and shod/trimmed so perfectly.... some of the worst feet I've seen have come out of Walking land... :rolleyes:

[Tree]

Tree appears to be eagerly posting in this thread, it distracts people from posting in the other thread about hers and DR Strassers techniques.

I think you need to go back and see where it was that S's name first appeared and you'll find I made NO mention of her. And I wouldn't call my posting 'eager' either.

It might be nice if the OP had some control of direction of a thread, discussion, but everyone knows that is impossible.

Are you kidding? Mention hooves and what do you get usually? :sigh:

Tree

[Jeff Wolf]

:lol::lol::lol: And I'll bet there's a real premium for this "service", as there is with "everything Parelli"!

...
I suppose that if you are "Parelli inclined", then having a farrier who has been blessed by Parelli would give you lots of warm fuzzies and strokes and lift a great burden from your mind because you'd know your horse was in good hoof care hands. Or not...

[LMH]

You've been paying attention, done your due dilligence and you win the Kewpie Doll. Congratulations!!


Thank you thank you everyone. I would like to thank so many people...gosh where do I start...of course thank you to ALL the BUA for being so patient in teaching me about the sole callous and mustang rolls and stimulus-I just couldn't have started this journey without you...and to the numerous trainers and veterinarians that have tirelessly answered my questions about biomechanics and conformation.

Thank you to the horses! Wow-I almost forgot my teachers-the horses!

I will treasure this Kewpie Doll.

[Rick Burten]

........to pick fights and pull threads down into pissing matches between trimmers and shoers,

I would like to point out for those who have missed, overlooked, or ignored the fact, that in fact, and demonstrably so, all farriers are trimmers. However, we(the farriers) do not suffer from an affliction that warps one's perspective and actions as does that of the BUA mindest.

And though BUAtistas will argue to the contrary, , by definition, their actions and words brand them as card carrying members of the current incarnation of the BUA movement.

[7HL]

Let me say I think it is a valid discussion to discuss this particular farriers methods and ideas on shoeing / trimming horses. His methods.

I don't see where all the other BS comes into play, except someone doesn't have anything to say and just wants to post something.

For the record, we have 3 horses, two barefoot and one shod. It's what is best for the horses. We also have incorporated Parelli's techniques and methods into the training of our horses. Our horse for the most part ground tie for our farrier. We use rope halters and don't have any control issues. All of that said, it has "nothing" to do with the original post. And how other people train, feed, work, ride and even care for their horses hooves does either.

[7HL]

If you went to the Parelli site and did a search on Heathy Stride you'ld get the following:

Search Result for: healthy stride

We're sorry your search did not produce any results.

[LMH]

If you went to the Parelli site and did a search on Heathy Stride you'ld get the following:

Search Result for: healthy stride

We're sorry your search did not produce any results.

But they did sell the video and are very proud of the results of the farriery program.

[Rick Burten]

This is a topic discussed heavily over and over. There are enough types of hoof protection that are not metal shoes that can be used to help horses thru pathologies and during riding.

Demonstrably, there is no boot or similar device that can provide for every need/exigency along the hoof care continuum. Demonstrably, there are shoes that can.

The answer is we should all ban together

I sincerely hope you intended to say "band" rather than "ban" :eek:, as the meanings are quite different. :)

But I digress. Perhaps if those of your persuasion would not continue to disrespect farriers in general, and would cease using worst case scenarios every time you want to try to make the point that "see how harmful shoes are.....", you might find a bit less animosity from the farriers.

Besides, are you now asserting that you(individually and collectively) do not have the mindset of "barefoot more than anything else"? If so, they you will need to stop preaching that position. If not, then what are you complaining about? The acronym(BUA) is accurate and descriptive and reflective of how members of the movement are viewed by those outside the movement. Want it to be different? Then its up to your membership to change people's opinion/perception of you(the collective).

[EqTrainer]

I'm trying to figure out how you can trim a horse with a carrot stick. :winkgrin:


I was wondering that, too!

Perhaps it's the Eighth Game?!!

[irishcas]

I sincerely hope you intended to say "band" rather than "ban" :eek:, as the meanings are quite different. :)


DOH!!! yes Band, not Ban :) Sorry that was a typo.


But I digress. Perhaps if those of your persuasion would not continue to disrespect farriers in general, and would cease using worst case scenarios every time you want to try to make the point that "see how harmful shoes are.....", you might find a bit less animosity from the farriers.[/quote

Rick, I only show the feet that I'm called to work on, I don't hunt down worst case scenarios, so it is what it is. George has been kind enough to offer to come visit so I can take him around to barns where horses are done by a number of different farriers. Overall the majority are poorly trimmed, then have shoes put on. I'm starting to think the only good farriers are on the boards and do not exist in most locales.

[quote]
Besides, are you now asserting that you(individually and collectively) do not have the mindset of "barefoot more than anything else"? If so, they you will need to stop preaching that position. If not, then what are you complaining about?


I can only speak for myself and I think I was pretty clear that in the previous post where I said I believe barefoot is best for most horses. I also was pretty clear that the need for some people to shoe there horses is not, will not, can not go away. Horses are bred for many things that leave the feet out of it..



The acronym(BUA) is accurate and descriptive and reflective of how members of the movement are viewed by those outside the movement. Want it to be different? Then its up to your membership to change people's opinion of you(the collective).

I can not make you stop doing anything, nor do I care to. I'm just pointing out that we should not be fighting we should be working together. I'm pointing out that you using a slur that is offensive to some does not promote togetherness. But I guess that, this is your answer. Shrug...

We are who we are, Barefooters have made vast improvements in horses lives, OVER what their previous hoofcare provider was doing. If nothing else we are helping a lot of farriers become more knowledgeable and look and the whole horse, not just the bones ;) We are advancing the hoofcare profession. We got most beat, hands down, on anatomy, dentistry, saddle fit and kindness when working with horses :)

And I'm done discussing this point on this thread... I'll never win a word argument with you Rick, I usually don't even bother. I don't have the skills or the patience. If you want to sit in a room and discuss well then that's a different story ;) I do better in person, than in typing.

Off to work, have a nice day.

[7HL]

But they did sell the video and are very proud of the results of the farriery program.

Most clinicians, and trainers will try a variety of different products from many sources. Often times they get them for free or trade. To be honest I can't say what the business relationship, is between the two.

There is nothing stated anywhere in the Parelli program that states barefoot or shod. There also is nothing stated anywhere that a particular method, group of farriers / trimmers should be used either.

They use a variety of different products and let people know who they are. It is a commercial business.

[7HL]

We are who we are, Barefooters have made vast improvements in horses lives, OVER what their previous hoofcare provider was doing. If nothing else we are helping a lot of farriers become more knowledgeable and look and the whole horse, not just the bones ;) We are advancing the hoofcare profession. We got most beat, hands down, on anatomy, dentistry, saddle fit and kindness when working with horses :)Sounds like the only thing horses and horse owners need is a Barefooter. Get rid of the rest!

[Rick Burten]

Off to work, have a nice day.

You too. :)

Peace, Love, and Nuclear War!

[BornToRide]

Literally it stands for Barefoot Uber Allies (Barefoot above all else) and it has connotations of Naziism. So calling someone a BUA is akin to calling them a Barefoot Nazi. I can't stand it either.
It just shows that some people resort to name calling because they no longer can effectively argue with facts. :winkgrin:


I'm trying to figure out how you can trim a horse with a carrot stick. :winkgrin:
:D Now that's a good one :lol::lol::lol:

I like some of the Parelli ideas and do some of the games with my horse, but like with many things, once a person wants to corner a market or establish him/herself as something rather unique in the marketplace when it comes to animals, without effectively listening to the critters, animals usually start to suffer.:(

[rcloisonne]

LMH, have any pictures? I'm familiar with Esco Buff's ideas about limb length disparity leading to club feet in the front. He watched the horse move down the aisle from many viewing points, including above to try to pinpoint what was wrong in the horse's body. The horse kind of snaked along in that nothing was straight.

He then wedged the hind feet (determined the problem originated in the hindquarts) to change his posture. Only then did he shoe the fronts. I was unable to stay for that part so I don't know whether either front foot was wedged. The owner was supposed to have chiropractic work done ASAP and massage, and over time, the need for wedges would go away and the foot would stop trying to compensate for a problem in the shoulder--that is, it would stop being a club foot.
Dr. Buff doesn't wedge the fronts. He applies a "lift" pad to the clubby foot, i.e., a pad that raises the whole hoof. Big difference. However, 95% of people assume it is a wedge.

Here's a perfect candidate for Dr. Buff's protocol (from the recent Fingerlakes horses need homes thread):

One is Jet G Star
http://fltrainerlist.proboards104.co...lay&thread=638

So much for biomechanical efficiency at the track. :eek:

[BornToRide]

link ain't working

[rcloisonne]

link ain't working
Sorry! I can't open the link from this computer. Go to this thread, 1st post, the link to Jet G Star:

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=177474

[BornToRide]

This horse has heels and toes that are waaaayyyyy too long in the fronts. Simply lifting or wedging here won't do any good. One can quickly stand up a horse on heels if the quarters are trimmed correctly - often they are left too long on horses like this! Look at this example - accomplished in just one trim: http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v614/Popelina/?action=view&current=ArabCrossHindsBTAT11-14-08.jpg

[Dirty Little Secret]

Some boarders were having trouble with their horses and their feet. Weren't happy with current farrier and his ever increasing prices (around $500 for shoes) so they opted to try the Healthy Stride Clinic. I was VERY skeptical and resistant. I frequently challenged Jim Crew's ideas on muscular physiology and how it related to adjusted limb length/angles in the feet. Some of the questions he was able to provide a decent explanation of and veterinarians in attendance also confirmed.

Horse 1- TB hunter, SORE feet from sole pressure. Severely underrun heels. Very flat feet naturally.
Horse was given pours, natural balance shoes and a combination of wedges and shims on a couple feet to address imbalances.
Horse was given 1 week out of work to adjust per Jim Crew. After returning to work horse had definite improvement in hind end balance and power.
Horse was shod again and again same type of shoeing- I didn't see how the feet would ever get any better; just kept patching problem.
Horse was put to pasture when kid when to college (was an ugly jumper...)

Horse 2- chronic pain issues from a variety of issues. One slight club foot and one flat foot from uneven pressure on feet. High/low from true limb length discrepancy. Don't remember exactly what all they did but it took 4 hours...
Horse was sore for about a day but returned to work sounder than he'd ever been. Kid however lost interest in riding and horse was donated shortly after.

yes, their feet looked like crap and I'm not sure that I could have taken them into public looking the way they did (casting and all) but the horses he worked on did improve. But I've seen 'real' farriers improve horses just as much and I've also seen barefoot improve horses just as much. Just another option...

[matryoshka]

rcloisonne, thanks for the clarification. I was bummed I couldn't stay for the entire day. Horse ended up going back to O'Grady, and his foot did not touch the ground at the heel. It looked normal, but when you got down there by the foot, you could slide a piece of cardboard under the heel.

[Guilherme]

I have never heard of any barefoot methods based in philosophy. Are you sure it was or was it physiology instead?

Tree

I wrote what I wrote quite intentionally. The "barefoot movement" often is way more philosophical than physiological.

G.

[Auventera Two]

Demonstrably, you believe in the concept of "barefoot above all else". .

Oh how wrong you are. I refer people to a farrier to shoe their horse when I feel it would be the best thing for the horse. I am NOT opposed to shoes when the horse really needs them, and if they can be done correctly and maintained appropriately.

Also, you apparently have a short memory because I do believe just a few days ago I recommended that a banana or roller motion shoe might be helpful for a horse, then you chimed in and said you were thinking the same thing......

It's this kind of ignorant nonsense that keeps the fights brewing on this forum Rick.

[BornToRide]

and his ever increasing prices (around $500 for shoes)
:eek: What's that - the horse shoeing bubble based on spekulation that ONLY he can make the horses move best??!! :confused: Who on earth can afford this on a regular basis aside from some snotty rich hedgefund managers ?? :rolleyes:

[Auventera Two]

You sure you aren't confusing Parelli with Strasser vis a vis the oats, grass hay, anti vaccine/drugs thing? Like a lot of Europeans Strasser is very into homeopathics and she is against chemicals unless unavoidable - although I believe she will use them if the situation calls for it. I think its really sensible to be wary of the standard palliative and prophylactic use of drugs.

I find those principles (the predator thing aside) to be a pretty commonsense approach : straight simple hard feed (I use a variety of simple grains and seeds personally) which avoids the added sugar, protein boosters like soya meal, and the fillers, antioxidants etc that manufactured feeds are full of. That plus good grass hay made from a variety of grasses and a salt block - what else do you need?

And save the chemicals for when they are really needed.

What's weird about that?

NO. I am not confusing anything. This guy is working his way up the Parelli levels, and he was studying under a certified trainer. This guy also professional trains horses for other people, and all he does is Parelli, to my knowledge. I watched him carrot sticking a horse and doing a lot of leadrope shaking too. Pretty distinctive.

FYI - lots of horses needs lots of extra stuff. Some of us actually WORK our horses and work them hard and they can't live off a handfull of oats and some grass hay. Sure, if all you do is pleasure hack around the back 40, you could get away with that, but hard working athletes need much more fuel for the body. And some people own very hard keeping Thoroughbreds who cannot live on grass hay and a handfull of oats. We one such horse for 15 years and she was a real nightmare to feed. Look at her the wrong way and she'd drop 50 pounds.

[Auventera Two]

BUA is short for "barefoot uber alles." That's "pidgin German" for "no shoes, ever."

G.


which is certainly not MY position, so lets just be clear on that.

[Auventera Two]

IThe PNH horse owners were just letting them wander around with those 20' ropes they use for leads. Now to me, this was just poor examples of PNH. So the Healthy Stride guy took over by getting out the metal nose band contraption (attched to a browband headstall) and the next time the horses went to wander, he gave them a HELLO bump and that was that. You can't get any work done if the horse isn't going to help by standing still.

Tree

And don't forget that all 20 feet of the rope is always laying on the ground around the horses feet too. I trim a few Parelli horses, and they're very good horses with good training, but I cannot STAND having 20 feet of rope wrapped around my head and trimming stand and tools. I coil all the rope up and hand it to the owner and ask them if they can keep it out of the way.

[goldrushgal]

I own & ride Healthy Stride Horses and have for several years and would not want to ride a horse shod any other way. If you have not experienced it you really dont have a clue what you are talking about. Healthy Stride has helped thousands of horses through out the US. Its not about hoof problems its about body problems & how they can be helped through trimming. Its not all about shoes either. You can apply these principles with barefoot as well.
This method is saving horse owners hundreds of dollars in vet expenses, feed costs & more, not to mention the down time of lameness. Horses are happier & healthier. Parelli did not develop this program , they do how ever use this program for their horses & have experienced first hand the difference for the better that is has made in their horses. So if you want a real opinion of the program ask those that are using it and not those that really dont even understand it. good luck to all.

[Tree]

And don't forget that all 20 feet of the rope is always laying on the ground around the horses feet too. I trim a few Parelli horses, and they're very good horses with good training, but I cannot STAND having 20 feet of rope wrapped around my head and trimming stand and tools. I coil all the rope up and hand it to the owner and ask them if they can keep it out of the way.

:lol: Ditto.

Tree

[Tree]

I wrote what I wrote quite intentionally. The "barefoot movement" often is way more philosophical than physiological.

G.

Thanks. Just wanted to be sure that that was what you had meant to type.

Tree

[Guilherme]

I own & ride Healthy Stride Horses and have for several years and would not want to ride a horse shod any other way. If you have not experienced it you really dont have a clue what you are talking about. Healthy Stride has helped thousands of horses through out the US. Its not about hoof problems its about body problems & how they can be helped through trimming. Its not all about shoes either. You can apply these principles with barefoot as well.
This method is saving horse owners hundreds of dollars in vet expenses, feed costs & more, not to mention the down time of lameness. Horses are happier & healthier. Parelli did not develop this program , they do how ever use this program for their horses & have experienced first hand the difference for the better that is has made in their horses. So if you want a real opinion of the program ask those that are using it and not those that really dont even understand it. good luck to all.

Does it also help them run faster, jump higher, dive deeper, and come up dryer than other shoeing methods? Is it like a Shamwow (and sells itself)? Does Billy Mays pitch it? Do we get a doubling of our order if we call within the next 20 minutes?

G.

[goldrushgal]

G.

Are you trying to be humorous? Sorry I dont consider lameness in horses to be humorous. I guess some of us are just more interested in the betterment of the horse. That is my main focus. I have a lot of time & money invested in my horses not to mention it is my responsibity to do the best for my horse.

[rcloisonne]

This horse has heels and toes that are waaaayyyyy too long in the fronts. Simply lifting or wedging here won't do any good. One can quickly stand up a horse on heels if the quarters are trimmed correctly - often they are left too long on horses like this! Look at this example - accomplished in just one trim: http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v614/Popelina/?action=view&current=ArabCrossHindsBTAT11-14-08.jpg
Umm... Where are the "before" pictures showing a horse with the high/low issues that you fixed in one trim? Granted, the TB I posted doesn't look like he's seen a farrier in quite awhile. However, a single trim, no matter how exotic, will fix that upright right front nor the underun heel on the left.

[Guilherme]

G.

Are you trying to be humorous? Sorry I dont consider lameness in horses to be humorous. I guess some of us are just more interested in the betterment of the horse. That is my main focus. I have a lot of time & money invested in my horses not to mention it is my responsibity to do the best for my horse.

Yes, I was.

Your post comes accross like a cable TV informercial. Thus the response.

If (note the conditional) the program works for you then God Bless You. Thing is you can get the same result (and perhaps much better) from lots of other programs without the Parelli Markup.

Horses have been domesticated for something between 6000-10,000 years. Basic horsemanship was not invented by Pat Parelli. Shoes have been abound since (perhaps) as early as the Romans in the First Century AD. Good quality shoeing was not invented by Pat Parelli. His primary contribution ot the equestrian art seems to be the Carrot Stick (and that's not original, either).

Do what you want with your money, but don't think that insulates any program you follow from comment.

G.

[BornToRide]

Umm... Where are the "before" pictures showing a horse with the high/low issues that you fixed in one trim? Granted, the TB I posted doesn't look like he's seen a farrier in quite awhile. However, a single trim, no matter how exotic, will fix that upright right front nor the underun heel on the left.Did the link not work for you?

[goldrushgal]

Again , as stated earlier. Pat Parelli has nothing to do with the developement of Healthy Stride. If Pat Parelli uses crest toothpaste did that mean he developed it? It is a very beneficial program for horses & for those that want to achieve a greater level of horsemanship. If someone is interested in studying the program I feel sure they will benefit from the knowledge they will gain from it.

[tkhawk]

It is a very beneficial program for horses & for those that want to achieve a greater level of horsemanship. If someone is interested in studying the program I feel sure they will benefit from the knowledge they will gain from it.

I don't know . People have fought war on horses. People ride 100mi races on horses . People jump horses and do all kind of things. I am not sure how a type of shoeing or shims or whatever the methodology is is going to help achieve a greater level of horsemanship?:confused:

I think everything that we do with horses people have already done it and then some..
This may help a little-but it raises your level of horsemanship? That is somewhat of a stretch.. I mean if you look at it that way everything helps your horsemanship...

[BornToRide]

Does anyone have before and after hoof photos? The website really does not have any - only clinc shots....I wonder why this great technique is not shared in such a way to show off its success............hmmmmmm, things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmm....;)

[irishcas]

Does anyone have before and after hoof photos? The website really does not have any - only clinc shots....I wonder why this great technique is not shared in such a way to show off its success............hmmmmmm, things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmm....;)

Here are pix of the Parelli horses trimmed by this group...

http://s277.photobucket.com/albums/kk64/irishcas/Parelli/

UGH.

[Tree]

Here are pix of the Parelli horses trimmed by this group...

http://s277.photobucket.com/albums/kk64/irishcas/Parelli/

UGH.

There's those square toes and is that a backwards shoe on Remmer's LF? [edit] No, I see that those are egg bar shoes and seems to be a lot of wedging of the RF.

Tree

[LMH]

Wow Kim-you snagged some good ones.

Now someone just needs the videos of the movement...then we can really get this discussion going on how beneficial this method is. :uhoh:

[Guilherme]

Wow Kim-you snagged some good ones.

Now someone just needs the videos of the movement...then we can really get this discussion going on how beneficial this method is. :uhoh:

Kim, you win a BIG SEEGAR!!!!! :)

It's how the horse MOVES, not static photos of feet, that counts.

G.

[Daydream Believer]

Those pictures give me chills. Kim, where did you find those?

[irishcas]

Those pictures give me chills. Kim, where did you find those?

A friend of mine from a another list, she lives out in Colorado. All photos were taken from the most recent Savvy Conference.

:sigh:

Thanks for bringing this to the light. More Parelli BS, ask the Natural Balance people about their saddles and Linda.

[Auventera Two]

Kim, you win a BIG SEEGAR!!!!! :)

It's how the horse MOVES, not static photos of feet, that counts.

G.

I disagree. Static photos tell you a LOT about the health and balance of hooves. Sure how the horse moves is important, but crappy hoof form is crappy hoof form, whether the horse is standing in your wash rack or dancing the hula with yogi bear. :rolleyes:

FYI - according to YOUR point of view, these hooves are absolutely correct and nothing needs to be changed, because it's only movement that counts http://www.horsehoofandfootproblems.com/founder1small.jpg

So go ahead, tell us that as long as the horse moves fine, there's no problem :-) I dare ya

So lets hope we don't see you comment on another "barefoot" hoof photo or topic, because as long as the horse moves fine, then all is A ok! Or are you a hypocrite?

[LMH]

Kim, you win a BIG SEEGAR!!!!! :)

It's how the horse MOVES, not static photos of feet, that counts.

G.


Wow...what a silly statement. The feet posted are not healthy..and fwiw, they do not move well.

Imagine that-unhealthy hooves with poor balance that don't move well-funny how the two go hand in hand?

[irishcas]

I disagree. Static photos tell you a LOT about the health and balance of hooves. Sure how the horse moves is important, but crappy hoof form is crappy hoof form, whether the horse is standing in your wash rack or dancing the hula with yogi bear. :rolleyes:

FYI - according to YOUR point of view, these hooves are absolutely correct and nothing needs to be changed, because it's only movement that counts http://www.horsehoofandfootproblems.com/founder1small.jpg

So go ahead, tell us that as long as the horse moves fine, there's no problem :-) I dare ya

So lets hope we don't see you comment on another "barefoot" hoof photo or topic, because as long as the horse moves fine, then all is A ok! Or are you a hypocrite?

G, I hope you were not serious, but.... Don't forget A2, he is a TN Walking horse guy so he claims. That would explain a lot, no?

We don't need to see the horse move to know these feet are HORRIBLE. If you have a clue of anatomy and overall hoof health then you will see unhealthy hoofcare in the photos.

Duh!

[Guilherme]

What a putz G is. Don't forget A2, he is a TN Walking horse guy so he claims. That would explain a lot, no?

We don't need to see the horse move to know these feet are HORRIBLE. If you have a clue of anatomy and overall hoof health then you will see unhealthy hoofcare in the photos.

Duh!

I was considering using a quote from Dr. House ("You are a moron.") but decided not to as our Moderators have requested that personal comments be restrained. I guess you didn't get that memo.

I said I BEGAN with Walkers. I sold my last one in '99. Having that background gives me a pretty good perspective on foot care because so much attention is paid to feet and foot gear in the Walker show world I've rehabbed a number of ex-Big Lick horses (and you ain't seen bad feet until you've seen a busted out Big Lick horse).

Appreance and functionality are not mutually exclusive. Neither are they always congruent. Static photos show us one view, but how the horse moves is the critical element. I'm not a "hoof care provessional" but 25 years messing with the beasts has taught me at least this.

The foot is PART of the horse. WAY too many "hoof care professionals" seem to have forgotten that there's a 1000 pounds or so of bone and muscle over that hoof and what goes on in that 1000 pounds can have a rather dramatic effect on that hoof. Indeed, gravity says that the mass above the hoof will have a more significant effect on the hoof that the mass of the hoof will have on the rest of the horse.

No foot, no horse? Absolutely true. Great foot, great horse? Not necessarily.

By the by, I posted a link to to some of our horses in a series of photos from some Cavalry Competitions. The horses do OK in them. Our competition horses are shod. Our non-competition horses are barefoot. I'm not wedded to a philosphy or a viewpoint beyond giving the horse what it needs.

Neither do I make any money from advocating some viewpoint or hawking some service.

G.

[irishcas]

The foot is PART of the horse. WAY too many "hoof care professionals" seem to have forgotten that there's a 1000 pounds or so of bone and muscle over that hoof and what goes on in that 1000 pounds can have a rather dramatic effect on that hoof.
Neither do I make any money from advocating some viewpoint or hawking some service.

G.

Well there you are wrong. Every and I mean EVERY hoof care professional I hob nob with believes that hoof care is one portion of overall hoof health. Shoot, go back and reread anything about this that LMH, DDB, A2, Rick, George, Jaye, and I have said about this. I spout it over and over that once you have a decent trim, the rest is about the horse, not about the trim.

But don't even attempt to try and say that those pictures reflect a healthy hoof. You DO have to start with a good trim/shoe job or the problems radiate upwards.

I don't "do" parelli, so haven't seen this horses personally, but have heard from enough parellites that say these horses are not moving well.

If you are helping Big Lick horses than good for you and I apologize for the slur. But I'll still say you are wrong in saying that 'if' these horses move fine than all is well? How can you say that? I bet the Big Lick people will say there horse with 5" heels, weighted, sore feet are moving "well".

If the parelli's are making money from this latest marketing scheme then there testimonials are suspect :( I don't know if they are, but if they are endorsing it, then we can presume some form of exchange is taking place.

Lets look at the anatomy of the limb. We know how joints should be spaced, we have an understanding of how extensors and flexor tendons work. We also have an understanding of how ligaments work. So looking at these feet and the joints, how can we begin to think that proper function is happening there. Over time, these imbalances will move upwards, back problems, shoulder problems, movement changes. This will then circle back down and start to effect the tendons, even the bones. Toe first landings are unhealthy for the horse. With such long hoof capsules the horse can't help but land toe first.

So yes, we can look at these feet and say with conviction, "They are not healthy"!

Regards,

[magnolia73]

Good god- what is natural about all that shimming? It looks like a trainwreck if someone calculated that stuff a little wrong. To me, it looks like orthotics which can do much more harm than good if applied incorrectly.

I know a lot of people who ride. Who compete. Jump horses, do dressage, ranch in rough country, train steeplechase horses, play polo, team penners, barrel racers. Most of their horses do really well with regular shoes or trimming.

Which makes me think- Parelli probably does less with his horses than the above that requires "soundness". Is he so poor at evaluating conformation and soundness that he purchases horses that need shims (that literally thousands of working horses- hard working horses) don't need? What's the saying- KISS keep it simple stupid. And that is what irks me about Parelli- its all about some crazy ass witch craft process that you have to pay to learn.... that could be much more simply accomplished via traditional methods.

It's like a giant juggernaut to make people paranoid about what they are doing wrong to their horse.

[Tree]

Don't forget A2, he is a TN Walking horse guy so he claims. That would explain a lot, no?

The AL folks knew him as a TWH shoer so it isn't simply a claim.

Tree

[Tree]

Good god- what is natural about all that shimming?

During the Healthy Stride clinic I attended, the man made no claims that shimming was natural. He said it was temporary until the hooves became balanced again.

I'm just relaying what was said vs offering any support.

Tree

[magnolia73]

Tree- got it. But all the natural stuff makes me giggle. Natural horsemanship makes me giggle. Then having to do all this crazy shimming to do natural horsemanship makes me laugh. I think most horses could be sound for basic WTC without too much effort on anyones part. It's not like you are asking the horse to jump like Sapphire that you need some fancy calibration of your horses angles.

And I guess we can laugh at all of the sporthorse stuff- the joint injections, fancy saddle pads, $500 shoeing jobs. To jump 2'6 jumps. LOL.

I think perhaps ultimately, professionals in all disciplines have learned that guilt + love+ owner with $ = big payoff for a strong marketing message.

[goldrushgal]

Magnolia,

What horse world do you live in? Lameness is an epidemic in the horse world that I know of, especially in the showing industry. Have you ever thought of how many drugs are being used on most of these show horses to help treat them for lameness issues? Most organizations/clubs etc. dont even drug test so there is no real way to know for sure, but if you are in business you know its being done.

[Guilherme]

The AL folks knew him as a TWH shoer so it isn't simply a claim.

Tree

The AL folks (whoever they may be) are full of s**t as a Christmas goose. I've never shod a horse in my life. I OWNED Walkers for a long time.

I have pulled some shoes (trained under one of our farriers and got to put the skill to work a couple of times).

Well, maybe I did "shoe" a horse, once. On trail ride a shoe got bent on a rock and I pulled it. I then made a "shoe" out of duct tape so we could get home without the horse suffering any injury or discomfort. ;)

Don't make the discussion about me (or any other person). It's about giving the horse what it needs.

Appearance is nice; functionality is nicer.

G.

[magnolia73]

Oh- I know that people drug horses- at all levels. But realize that the horses with lameness issues are lame in a lot of ways due to the workload and lifestyle. Improper fitness, longing (endless longing), too much jumping. Do they drug? yes. Will shims keep those horses sound? Doubt it. The hunter being retired at 12 has nothing to do with shims. My mare has a few soundness issues- again- if I could fix the damage of galloping on a track at age 2 with some shims I would.

I think the danger of Parelli et al is that they oversell the effectiveness of their tools. And unfortunately, their target audience is often people who don't know or understand alternatives or even understand soundness.

[BornToRide]

Magnolia,

What horse world do you live in? Lameness is an epidemic in the horse world that I know of, especially in the showing industry. Have you ever thought of how many drugs are being used on most of these show horses to help treat them for lameness issues? Most organizations/clubs etc. dont even drug test so there is no real way to know for sure, but if you are in business you know its being done.Totally agree. I know of halter horse breeders whose horses are frequently laminitic or foundered because of the diet they get to bulk them up - they just bute them up and show them anyway. :mad:

[matryoshka]

Kim, thanks for sharing the pics. Yikes!

We had one horse through the rescue I volunteer for that has seriously knocked knees. His knees touch and his fetlocks are several inches apart with feet pointing laterally at about 45 deg angles. He looks like a ballerina when he walks, and there is major lateral to medial pronation. His feet had been neglected, and because of the way he stands, he'd worn the medial walls low and had high lateral walls, making the pronation dramatically worse.

I can't think of a trimming protocol in the world that will help this horse be sound. I had wondered whether shims would help with the pronation BUT, then when he's standing, there would be extra stress on the joints and soft tissue. The horse is 17.1hh and has had this problem his whole life. The question would be whether trying to support the leg better for motion would help or whether it would create more problems.

I recently switched computers, and the pics were in my old email account. Maybe I can get MayS to resend them to me so I can post them here. These legs are scary, but the horse is comfortable for light riding and a real sweetheart. He has trouble going down hills, so the only trail riding he'd stay sound for would have to be on level ground, preferably with soft footing. Luckily, he found the perfect home with a lady who only wants to do light riding around the farm and loves to groom.

[AZ Native]

i'm out of town and too busy to read the whole thread. My apologies. But, a mentor of Dh's ( well known , respected , and his opinion is good enough for us ) went to a clinc. The description was laughable. Linda's horse has been looking not so good for a long time , movement and feet wise. Buyer beware. Thier ( parelli's ) hoofcare knowlege is lacking, to be polite.

[BornToRide]

Anytime a human tries to "fix" something on an animal with gadgets should raise a big warning flag. :yes:

[7HL]

Anytime a human tries to "fix" something on an animal with gadgets should raise a big warning flag. :yes:

Exactly what do you mean by a gadget?

While I am not opposed to barefoot, bareback and bit less; shoes,bits and saddles, all have a purpose.

Us humans are always trying to fix or compensate for something with our horses by the use of equipment.

If your saying narrowly that this farrier's system is using smoke and mirrors, welcome to the real world. From trimmers claiming to be using a noted Doctors research to trim hooves to farriers claiming to have "the" answer to all your problems. There are even some that give themselves fancy titles like,equine podiatrist, to make their way the preferred method.

It's a buyers beware world out there. Beware of those snake oil salesmen coming from all sides of this issue. Every horse owner needs to be educated of what the person that is working with their horses hooves is really doing and why.

[BornToRide]

Wedges, egg-bar shoes, Natural Balance shoes, you name it! I know of a navicular QH who has been in NBS for a year now (tried all sorts of other shoeing solutiosn before that) - he's still not sound.

[7HL]

Again , as stated earlier. Pat Parelli has nothing to do with the developement of Healthy Stride. If Pat Parelli uses crest toothpaste did that mean he developed it? It is a very beneficial program for horses & for those that want to achieve a greater level of horsemanship. If someone is interested in studying the program I feel sure they will benefit from the knowledge they will gain from it.


You are indeed correct. But you have to understand the word Parelli thrown into this changes the whole discussing for everyone. Unfortunately as with "all" clinicians there is a group of "kool-aid" drinkers, groupies that become unbearable being around because they become fanatics. Some of the posts are by those that have been exposed to such people.

The same kind of fanatics are on the both side of some of the most commonly discussed and argued topics on horse forums, slaughter vs anti-slaughter to shoes vs barefoot. It seems often times it's not what really is in the best interest of the equine community, but what serves the person own self interest.


So where ever Parelli is discussed there will be people that like what he's doing and those that don't.

[7HL]

Wedges, egg-bar shoes, Natural Balance shoes, you name it! I know of a navicular QH who has been in NBS for a year now (tried all sorts of other shoeing solutiosn before that) - he's still not sound.


So egg-bar shoes and Natural Balance shoes have no purpose and are evil?

And what would you do to help this navicular QH to make him sound?

[Peter026]

Wedges, egg-bar shoes, Natural Balance shoes, you name it! I know of a navicular QH who has been in NBS for a year now (tried all sorts of other shoeing solutiosn before that) - he's still not sound.

Just when you are beginning to write something sensible..You blow it:no:

[Tree]

Tree- got it. But all the natural stuff makes me giggle. Natural horsemanship makes me giggle. Then having to do all this crazy shimming to do natural horsemanship makes me laugh. I think most horses could be sound for basic WTC without too much effort on anyones part. It's not like you are asking the horse to jump like Sapphire that you need some fancy calibration of your horses angles.

I get what you're saying too. "Natural" was always under the microscope in the NH groups I used to visit (Trail Less Traveled for one). I guess it is the movement towards using principles that come closer to what is natural to horses when it comes to how they learn and behave compared to the principles which just make horses do things using force and fear.

The shimming isn't something new when it comes to Farriery. Maybe it's the principles that are newer in how the Healthy Stride shimming works compared to what's been going on for longer.

I wish horses could be sound enough to manage WTC but then you have to look at their feet to see if they should be sound at all and this is where things like HS appears to offer solutions. Farriery has been offering solutions to keep deformed footed horses going. The barefoot movement focuse has been one of doing what it takes for horses to have healthier feet which aren't deformed so that they can then remain barefoot AND sound....or bare and booted if necessary. ;)

And I guess we can laugh at all of the sporthorse stuff- the joint injections, fancy saddle pads, $500 shoeing jobs. To jump 2'6 jumps. LOL.

I can't laugh at those things. I find myself just shaking my head instead and frowning...not in judgement of those who want those things for their horses but that it is thought of as a solution at all. I can think of better uses for the money spent that way but then again, I'm not in those horse owner's shoes.

I think perhaps ultimately, professionals in all disciplines have learned that guilt + love+ owner with $ = big payoff for a strong marketing message.

The payoff's don't usually take place if what's being marketed is no good. While I am not a fan of PNH, I meet people that it has helped with their horses and of course those, who haven't a clue of what they're doing providing very poor examples of PNH. Now that we have dish, I sometimes tune in to PNH on RFD TV and sometimes I will watch and other times I don't. I like to see things being done with horses and see some good results. Those are probably the times when I will watch. If it's just advertising (like the segments about living the dream), no thanks.

Tree

[Tree]

The AL folks (whoever they may be) are full of s**t as a Christmas goose. I've never shod a horse in my life. I OWNED Walkers for a long time.

:eek: Whoa Nellie!!!! The comments were about JC (Healthy Stride guy) who had been an AL Farrier for TWH's. OK?????

Tree

[rcloisonne]

Did the link not work for you?
All I see are trimmed feet with scooped-out quarters. :confused:

[Dirty Little Secret]

it's just a different way of doing things. Works for some, not for others. It's your money, do what you wish.

My boarders went there because they weren't satisfied with the service they were getting. I was skeptical but horses did go better and I did see several others that did as well. And it was cheaper than what we had been paying. Took a lot longer and would be difficult if you didn't have a home farrier to keep it up or several sessions to correct problems. I don't think it's enough to sit and bash back and forth and critique pictures. I'd imagine that Jim Crew would tell you to not just take pictures of the feet but to take pictures of the whole horse and to video the movement. He's really focused on all over body improvement through the feet. Not a bad idea in my opinion. If it works I don't know because I didn't see him shoe my horses but twice.

[Guilherme]

:eek: Whoa Nellie!!!! The comments were about JC (Healthy Stride guy) who had been an AL Farrier for TWH's. OK?????

Tree

Sorry about that, Chief. ;)

I guess I'm not the only ex-TWH'er out here.

G.

[katarine]

Jim Crew used to shoe for me.
I'm in central AL.
He does have an extensive TWH background. I had QHs at the time. I had a horse with bad abcesses from a previous farrier and he did help me get him right ...but not with anything weird. We kept him barefoot and worked on getting those feet ok again.
He didn't do anything weird to mine...this was yrs ago.

It's the same guy.

[BornToRide]

Just when you are beginning to write something sensible..You blow it:no: :lol::lol::lol: You funny bone....as it happens that's how most arrive at barefoot. They tried all the gadgets ( read shoeing solutions) and reached the end of the line. All they have left is pull shoes and that's when they suddenly see their horse improve for the first time in many, many moons :yes:

All I see are trimmed feet with scooped-out quarters. :confused: :cool: I am not going to argue with whether or not you see some improvement. The hooves are at least slightly better balanced and are on their way to improvebetter, and the horse walked off sound and happy. That's what's really important to me :)

[7HL]

....as it happens that's how most arrive at barefoot. They tried all the gadgets ( read shoeing solutions) and reached the end of the line. All they have left is pull shoes and that's when they suddenly see their horse improve for the first time in many, many moons :yes:

So now it's back to the real issue, shoes are evil and barefoot is wonderful. Nothing can be fixed with shoeing a horse, its only when a horse goes barefoot that it fixes all problems.

[matryoshka]

Please don't let BTR's views spark another barefoot vs. shoes argument! We pretty much know she's anti shoe. We should be discussing whether anybody has seen results--for good or bad--of the "Healthy Stride" type shoeing. I mean real results, not assumptions. I admit to wondering on occasion whether such methods could help some horses, but I'm not qualified to muck around with a horse's legs like that.

I wonder if Pat Reilly at New Bolton has ever employed such methods at the direction of the vets working there. And if so, what happened.

[Daydream Believer]

deleted

[Tree]

I have to share an email I got just a little bit ago from one of my two clients who had their horse trimmed at this Healthy Stride Clinic. I think it speaks volumes...and thank goodness this owner saw through the smoke and mirrors. I had been set to trim her horse last Sat. and she canceled to do the clinic on Sunday..that is what she's talking about below.

"The irony of using this guy is.....I put her back out in the pasture right after her trim this weekend, got her an hour later and she came in with a chip in her hoof. Ok, maybe it was coincidence... but he was still there and I had him fix it. He said "oh, she must have stepped on a rock". Maybe - but as many times as you've trimmed her she's had plenty of opportunity to step on rocks - and there were no chips or splintered hoof.

I'll tell you more about it when I see you. Just want you to know I"m not "jumping ship"!!

Have a great holiday.


I've taken a portion of the email you shared to discuss the deal about chipping and how it may relate to the HS way of shaping hooves.

JC (HS guy), stressed that he was a "square toe" man. Kim C.'s link to photos does show the squared toes in some views so it is probably safe to assume that he is still a square toe man. Ok so if this is how he shaped your client's horse's toes then it's highly likely chips would happen unless those points (pillars) are really tough. Otherwise, if you consider the shape of the coffin bone in the toe area and compare it to how the hoof was shaped, they will not match up and the points will just be excess horn which could be chipped away should the horse travel on footing that could do it (self-trim).

Where exactly did the hooves chip out at? It wasn't mentioned.

Tree

[caballus]

Whatever happened to just trimming hooves to the individual hoof in hand on the horse in hand? There is no specific "trim method" ... I don't care what label humans put on their 'style' of trimming ... the trim either works for the individual hoof on the individual horse or it doesn't. And, of course, the TRIM is what's important ... even WITH shoes. Good grief!

As for the hooves on the horses Irish posted? They are not healthy. Not one of them.

[Daydream Believer]

Where exactly did the hooves chip out at? It wasn't mentioned.

Tree

I simply do a good balanced non invasive trim with a strong bevel/roll and that alone is the best remedy I know for chipping, cracking or splitting feet as well as a shorter trim cycle. I'm interested to hear that this method squares the toes and that could explain it. If I remember, I'll try and take pics of the feet before I trim this horse next to see what they look like and share the pics if possible.

[Tree]

She did not say where the chip was and I won't see this horse for another month unless she has more problems. I told her to call me if she needs me sooner..if there is more chipping or other problems. I still have not heard how the other horse is doing yet.

I simply do a good balanced non invasive trim with a strong bevel/roll and that alone is the best remedy I know for chipping, cracking or splitting feet as well as a shorter trim cycle. I'm interested to hear that this method squares the toes and that could explain it. If I remember, I'll try and take pics of the feet before I trim this horse next to see what they look like and share the pics if possible.

I'll also add that even if the coffin bone had reshaped to one of being squared, the hoof capsule would likely remain rounded at the toe. We see this with founder cases having had remodeling of the coffin bone tip. (It will be the toe sole outline that reflects the coffin bone tip changes.) So I question the practice of squaring toes if shaping the hoof is suppose mimick the cb. It may work with shod horses but with barefooted ones, it means leaving excess at the start. If those don't wear away on their own, they become even more excessive as the hoof grows out.

It's also not uncommon to see toe walls that have become flattened (square foot shape), following long-term issues connected with improper hoof form. If the hairline shape adapts to this (when the normal shape is rounded), then it's likely that the cb remodeling has extended well up the dorsal plane towards the extensor process. And I'm not saying that JC's HS method would be the cause but couldn't certainly run the risk of setting a hoof up for these changes if employed long enough. It'll just remain to be seen.


Tree

[rcloisonne]

Please don't let BTR's views spark another barefoot vs. shoes argument! We pretty much know she's anti shoe. We should be discussing whether anybody has seen results--for good or bad--of the "Healthy Stride" type shoeing. I mean real results, not assumptions. I admit to wondering on occasion whether such methods could help some horses, but I'm not qualified to muck around with a horse's legs like that.
You’re right as usual, Matry. It was not at all my intention to spark another bare vs shoes argument and I rarely get involved in those posts. They’re usually a waste of electrons (as Lookout would say) and only occasionally amusing.

However, after I posted a pic of a horse I thought might benefit from Esco Buff’s “lift” pad protocol (which you introduced to this thread, BTW), BTR jumped in and claimed she completely “fixed” a horse just like this with a single trim. No sweat! Piece of cake! She went on to post pics of one of her trims to support her claim but nowhere were “before” shots of a horse exhibiting the significant hi/lo condition of the one I referenced. Since her trimmed horse is happy and that’s all that matters. :rolleyes:

Back to your regular programming.

[Guilherme]

Whatever happened to just trimming hooves to the individual hoof in hand on the horse in hand? There is no specific "trim method" ... I don't care what label humans put on their 'style' of trimming ... the trim either works for the individual hoof on the individual horse or it doesn't. And, of course, the TRIM is what's important ... even WITH shoes. Good grief!

As for the hooves on the horses Irish posted? They are not healthy. Not one of them.

Oh My God, Don't You Get It?

If we did this how would the guru community ever make any money? Think about all the unemployment that would result (no production of slick videos and publications, no rental of venues for clinics, dramatic drop in hot dog sales, etc.)? In these hard economic times we can't affort this kind of realism. We MUST support the myths, all myths, without any critical, thinking input.

Parelli, Roberts, Strasser, and Ovicheck FOREVER. (Or at least until the economy gets better.).

G.

Note that the above was typed with SARCASTIC MODE key in the ON position. ;)

[Tree]

Note that the above was typed with SARCASTIC MODE key in the ON position. ;)

:lol: :lol: :yes: :lol: :lol:

Tree

[Rick Burten]

We should be discussing whether anybody has seen results--for good or bad--of the "Healthy Stride" type shoeing. I mean real results, not assumptions. I admit to wondering on occasion whether such methods could help some horses, but I'm not qualified to muck around with a horse's legs like that.

Yes, there are instances where asymmetrical shimming of the hoof can be of value. But those instances are the exception, not the rule. Adding a full shim/lift ala Esco Buff can also be beneficial for some horses in some instances, but it is not a panacea/cureall.

[Rick Burten]

Whatever happened to just trimming hooves to the individual hoof in hand on the horse in hand? There is no specific "trim method" ... I don't care what label humans put on their 'style' of trimming ... the trim either works for the individual hoof on the individual horse or it doesn't. And, of course, the TRIM is what's important ... even WITH shoes. Good grief!,

Hey Gwen, when did you get so smart? :p :) And regardless of how well the trim is done, if the orthotic application is incorrect, whether that application be boots or shoes or other appliances, then the finished product will be less than satisfactory, and usually, much less than satisfactory.

As for the hooves on the horses Irish posted? They are not healthy. Not one of them.

I too have seen better examples of "healthy" hooves, both barefoot and shod.

[7HL]

It was not at all my intention to spark another bare vs shoes argument and I rarely get involved in those posts. They’re usually a waste of electrons (as Lookout would say) and only occasionally amusing.Ultimately isn't that what all of the hoof threads turn out to be. My way is the best, and all the rest of you are wrong. Some that were being torn apart in old threads become experts new threads. Reinventing, the butcher becomes an expert.

[Rick Burten]

Most organizations/clubs etc. dont even drug test so there is no real way to know for sure,

Huh? The AQHA, USEF, USAE, whatever, all have strict drug rules and go to great lengths to enforce them.

but if you are in business you know its being done.

So? Cops know that drivers exceed the speed limit, but that doesn't mean that they are turning a blind eye to the problem.

[Rick Burten]

Anytime a human tries to "fix" something on an animal with gadgets should raise a big warning flag. :yes:

Mushroom fertilizer!

And where is/what about your regular harrangue about diet being the root cause and eventual cure for all things that afflict the horse?

[BornToRide]

So now it's back to the real issue, shoes are evil and barefoot is wonderful. Nothing can be fixed with shoeing a horse, its only when a horse goes barefoot that it fixes all problems.
Yeahhhhh!!! Another convert :D The horses I work with sure seem to think so. The only shoe I would ever seriously consider putting on a horse is a glue on synthetic. :yes:


Ok, maybe it was coincidence... but he was still there and I had him fix it. He said "oh, she must have stepped on a rock". Maybe - but as many times as you've trimmed her she's had plenty of opportunity to step on rocks - and there were no chips or splintered hoof.

It happens - my gelding was just trimmed 2 weeks ago and had chips on 3 hooves - I am thinking perhaps my bevel was not strong enough and I was told that he had a yeehaww run day a few days before. Certainly does not make him sore in any way and I have seen badly chipped hooves due to self trimming because the horses had not been trimmed for 8 months. They were completely sound and the hooves very balanced - they just did not look so pretty .:)

[7HL]

Yeahhhhh!!! Another convert :D The horses I work with sure seem to think so. The only shoe I would ever seriously consider putting on a horse is a glue on synthetic. :yes:

:no:Far from it!

I have three horses, two barefoot and one with shoes. We do what meets our horses needs and the way they are used.

I believe in doing what is best for my horses and not following some cult like, groupie, mentality of the BUA crowd. I don't believe that metal is evil. Also the cure all to a horses needs, isn't resolved by popping another supplement down a horses throat.

[7HL]

I have seen badly chipped hooves due to self trimming because the horses had not been trimmed for 8 months.Sounds like some neglect going on here.

[BornToRide]

:no:Far from it!
Hook, line & sinker...........:D:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Tree]

Ultimately isn't that what all of the hoof threads turn out to be. My way is the best, and all the rest of you are wrong. Some that were being torn apart in old threads become experts new threads. Reinventing, the butcher becomes an expert.

It's a HOOF METHOD thread. It's taken all sorts of turns. This sort of post seems determined to do just what you continue to accuse others of doing. Why?

Tree

[7HL]

It's a HOOF METHOD thread. It's taken all sorts of turns. This sort of post seems determined to do just what you continue to accuse others of doing. Why?

Tree


What I was pointing out was the fact that many feel that your methods of trimming are extreme and described by many as butchery. I find it ironic that anyone would take your advise or regard anything you said as informative.

I noticed that when this thread started you jumped on board to take the heat away from the thread on you and blood letting, that eventually was shut down.

All threads discussing hooves usually end up with two sides, why should this thread be any different? Except this has Parelli thown in so that those that dislike him can discuss everything but the farrier's methods of the OP. So what else is new?

[JHUshoer20]

I noticed that when this thread started you jumped on board to take the heat away from the thread on you and blood letting, that eventually was shut down.

Now that was a fun one:D

I'm sure a few of us would love to discuss her unorthodox methods involving bloodletting and animal cruelty. Glad you brought it up!!!:)
George

[George Myers]

FYI - lots of horses needs lots of extra stuff. Some of us actually WORK our horses and work them hard and they can't live off a handfull of oats and some grass hay. Sure, if all you do is pleasure hack around the back 40, you could get away with that, but hard working athletes need much more fuel for the body. And some people own very hard keeping Thoroughbreds who cannot live on grass hay and a handfull of oats. We one such horse for 15 years and she was a real nightmare to feed. Look at her the wrong way and she'd drop 50 pounds.

Auventera - thanks for that. You know, I've owned, ridden and trained horses for 45 years and I never knew that you needed to feed hard working horses more carbohydrate than you'd feed pleasure hacks. I am so glad I found this site.

Ok - apologies - sarcasm is the lowest form of wit (Rick take note) but I never said you could work a performance horse on a 'handfull (sic) of oats and some grass hay'. If you want to challenge me at least have the grace to challenge what I actually say.

As an aside, some hard-doers may well be horses with a compromised stay apparatus. I know several thoroughbreds (own three of them) who were all deemed to be hard doers who, once their heel pain issues were sorted out and they stopped standing under in front, had no problems with holding weight. Admittedly their living conditions also changed - so foot issues weren't the only improvement.

[Tree]

Now that was a fun one:D

I'm sure a few of us would love to discuss her unorthodox methods involving bloodletting and animal cruelty. Glad you brought it up!!!:)
George


If I'm all THAT interesting, start a new thread or PM me.

Geez.

Tree

[George Myers]

Here are pix of the Parelli horses trimmed by this group...

http://s277.photobucket.com/albums/kk64/irishcas/Parelli/

UGH.

Don't faint Kim I'm about to agree with you - I'll take that UGH and raise you three 'ughs'.

[Auventera Two]

Auventera - thanks for that. You know, I've owned, ridden and trained horses for 45 years and I never knew that you needed to feed hard working horses more carbohydrate than you'd feed pleasure hacks. I am so glad I found this site.

Ok - apologies - sarcasm is the lowest form of wit (Rick take note) but I never said you could work a performance horse on a 'handfull (sic) of oats and some grass hay'. If you want to challenge me at least have the grace to challenge what I actually say.

As an aside, some hard-doers may well be horses with a compromised stay apparatus. I know several thoroughbreds (own three of them) who were all deemed to be hard doers who, once their heel pain issues were sorted out and they stopped standing under in front, had no problems with holding weight. Admittedly their living conditions also changed - so foot issues weren't the only improvement.

More carbohydrate?! You sure that's all there is to it? I was thinking increased fat and protein, but hey.........maybe you feed your performance horses a bucket of molasses a day. Good luck with that.

[irishcas]

Now that was a fun one:D

I'm sure a few of us would love to discuss her unorthodox methods involving bloodletting and animal cruelty. Glad you brought it up!!!:)
George

Here is Kim SITTING on her fingers, will not let George poke her into baiting the shrub.

:)

[JHUshoer20]

Here is Kim SITTING on her fingers, will not let George poke her into baiting the shrub.

:)
I'm sure it wouldn't take much:lol:
George

[George Myers]

More carbohydrate?! You sure that's all there is to it? I was thinking increased fat and protein, but hey.........maybe you feed your performance horses a bucket of molasses a day. Good luck with that.

You were so vague in your use of the term 'stuff' - I didn't want to go into too much detail.

Equine athletes need ATP which is produced through glycogenolysis ie the process by which muscle and liver glycogen is broken down to produce ATP, and lypolysis - the metabolic action of breaking triglycerides into three fatty acids + one glycerol for ATP production.

Relatively speaking, proteins don't contribute much at all to the production of ATP for work - although of course they are vital for muscle building.

So, in terms of feeding for performance, carbs are critical. The protein should have already done its work of building muscle but won't help in ATP production - and - in relation to anaerobic metabolism only carbohydrates can be utilised for ATP production. So pretty essential....

Where on earth did you get the idea that carbohydrates equals a 'bucket of molasses'?

[LMH]

Don't they get carbs in forage?

[Auventera Two]

You were so vague in your use of the term 'stuff' - I didn't want to go into too much detail.

Equine athletes need ATP which is produced through glycogenolysis ie the process by which muscle and liver glycogen is broken down to produce ATP, and lypolysis - the metabolic action of breaking triglycerides into three fatty acids + one glycerol for ATP production.

Relatively speaking, proteins don't contribute much at all to the production of ATP for work - although of course they are vital for muscle building.

So, in terms of feeding for performance, carbs are critical. The protein should have already done its work of building muscle but won't help in ATP production - and - in relation to anaerobic metabolism only carbohydrates can be utilised for ATP production. So pretty essential....

Where on earth did you get the idea that carbohydrates equals a 'bucket of molasses'?

Awww somebody knows how to use Wikipedia! :eek: :lol:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adenosine_triphosphate

Too funny.

[Rick Burten]

Awww somebody knows how to use Wikipedia! :eek: :lol:
.


Now that's funny. :)

[George Myers]

Awww somebody knows how to use Wikipedia! :eek: :lol:



But of course you do - and as you have established it saves a lot of time and mental energy.

[Cindyg]

Don't faint Kim I'm about to agree with you - I'll take that UGH and raise you three 'ughs'.

I just want to repeat that shimming hooves (??) is not part of the Parelli program, and a lot of us in the Parelli program don't like it at all. This is something Linda is trying, and I applaud her for trying to help her horse.

[Tree]

[edit]

But back to the topic, I understand that Healthy Stride isn't PNH but rather something the Parellis are in to at the moment. Followers of either will continue to see how it works out for the Parelli horses since they are often in the spotlight.

Tree

[Moderator 1]

Please avoid the personal commentary. We've removed a few posts.

Thanks,
Mod 1

[J.D.]

I just want to repeat that shimming hooves (??) is not part of the Parelli program, and a lot of us in the Parelli program don't like it at all. This is something Linda is trying, and I applaud her for trying to help her horse.

"Linda is trying" for what end result?:confused::confused:

[Tree]

"Linda is trying" for what end result?:confused::confused:

Why does anyone try something different? IMO, it's because other things have not worked. The saying goes, if something ain't broke, don't fix it. I'm guessing the Parelli's must have been having some problems that they felt needed fixing.

Perhaps someone could contact them to ask why they are trying JC's methods.

Tree

[matryoshka]

I and other local trimmers have noticed that horses who do a lot of Parelli work become uncomfortable in the hindquarters. I think it is from all of the "disengaging" they have to do. I spoke to an osteopath to see if she noticed the same. She agreed. At first they become stiff in hind legs, and it gets to the point where they cannot extend the hind foot farther back than the opposite leg for hoof cleaning or trimming. I have to be a contortionist to trim these guys.

So my first guess is that the work they are doing is making the horses sore. To fix the problem, remove the cause.

When I take on horses who are worked using the Parelli method, I ask that they don't do as much disengaging as the program requires. Most owners are receptive to this advice. Others, not so much. These are the bible thumpers in the group. I've talked to owners who used to do a lot of Parelli work, but they stopped when the horses got sore in the hindquarters.

JMHO.

[LMH]

The program doesn't require all the disengaging. People can just be idiots.:winkgrin:

[matryoshka]

There was a lot of disengaging going on in the level 1 and level 2 clinics I attended. Repetition is recommended for each of the seven "games." Perhaps the clinicians I saw weren't following the program, but if people practice what they were taught at the clinics, they are disengaging the hindquarters multiple times in each session. The osteopath I talked to said it would be okay if they had a follow-through exercise. Can't remember what it was she suggested. Sorry.

I've seen the same type of soreness in just about every horse doing the Parelli work. The last time I encountered that type of soreness, I asked the owner if they were doing Parellis. Answer was yes. I suggested they limit the disengaging to a couple each session, and the soreness improved.

It's anectdotal, so maybe not worth much.

[EqTrainer]

You can see that phenomenon in dressage barns, too, when people learn to leg yield for the first time :lol: the lure of going sideways is apparently irresistable!

Any lateral movement that the horse is not worked up to correctly (and used judiciously) will cause them to be sore.

I find the NH horses in my area to just simply be stiff. Stiff everywhere. I wish their owners would focus on learning how to ride in balance but it's apparently more rewarding to do other things. Sigh.

[Auventera Two]

I find the NH horses in my area to just simply be stiff. Stiff everywhere. I wish their owners would focus on learning how to ride in balance but it's apparently more rewarding to do other things. Sigh.

It seems like all the NH methods focus heavily on flexing the neck and disengaging the hips. You have all this action happening in the neck and hips, but nothing to connect it all together, and nothing to work the horse's midsection.

I just HATE those rubber necked horses that flip their head around and plop it on your knee when you pick up a rein. :mad: My friend's trail horses are all trained this way. I want horses to go straight through their body with full connection from head to tail. You start rubbering that neck around all over and you've completely lost all engagement and connection. And I think the horses suffer tremendously for this.

[7HL]

Alot of what you are describing is those that are training for conditioned response, not actual communication with the horse, to get them to understand what you want and when.There are many followers of lots of different clinicians, trainers, that mistake conditioned response with real communcation.

The Parellis have recognized that many that followed their methods were just repeating tasks over and over. They have even said that for some, the "7 games have become the "7 tortures" for their horses. That is because many focussed on specific tasks, just repeating them over and over.

Whether it be someone following Parelli or any other trainer, they hear what they want to hear and take what they want from what they read. And there are fanatics that follow lots of differnt training techniques.

Over all, I have very well behaved horses for my farrier. Three horses, two barefoot and one with front shoes only. Usually in and out 45mins to 1hour for all three.

[matryoshka]

I guess the point I was making is that if the horses are stiff in their bodies, problems will eventually show up in their feet (or the feet will be blamed). I had noticed a connection between that type of work and body soreness. If the soreness gets to the point where the horse appears off under saddle, I wonder if the people using this Healthy Stride guy are looking for him to solve the problem. If the problem is the work being asked of the horse, the farrier can't fix it. He might be able to mask it or keep the horse going "sound", but he can't fix it.

I brought this up because it was one of the first things that occurred to me when I read this thread and heard Linda is using this guy to fix her horses.

FWIW, I went to one of Clinton Anderson's free clinics and watched him work a horse that did not appear to me to be sound in the hind quarters. The feet were a mess. He worked that horse hard, put him back on his hocks numerous times, and required the horse to do many things that I felt certain were going to cause him to be very sore. No mention was made of whether the horse was sound enough to do what was asked. It was all about behavior. The horse was supposedly resistant from laziness or whatever, but not from lack of physical fitness or stiffness that would make what was being asked painful. I guess that is what he's paid to do, but it isn't the kind of riding/training that interests me. And the two-year old they broke that day? Barely coordinated. I'd have waited a year to start her under saddle. But I'm not a pro.

Different strokes, I guess. I wonder if the money trail makes some of these big-name trainers as concerned for the horse's physical well being or long term soundness. Kind of like the racehorse industry. These people have such a broad audience. Wouldn't it be great if they started off evaluating the horse's soundness and physical abilities/limitations/conformational issues before they saddled him up and got to "work"?

[7HL]

Different strokes, I guess. I wonder if the money trail makes some of these big-name trainers as concerned for the horse's physical well being or long term soundness.


Whether is be for money, ribbons, belt buckles, trophies, etc, there are lots of people in the horse industry cutting corners to reach their goals.

[matryoshka]

True.

[BornToRide]

Typical hind end stiffness can come from numerous things:

EPSM - mild cases are often missed
RER
Selenium deficiency
Trimming and shoeing
Incorrect training
Pelvic issues
Joint issues


I have seen similar hind end extension problems in several Dressage horses in one barn - they all had a stiff hindend in common. Why I am not entirely sure, but it seemed all muscle related. Yet those horses were not doing a lot of disengaging and the instructor was fairly skilled about developing the horses properly. In those cases I suspected a nutritional problem more than anything.

As with many things, training incorrectly applied is just that, bad training. I find that if NH horses are properly trained, they tend to be much more through their bodies and in better self carriage than many Dressage horse, who are always ridden on contact. Assuming the tail has not been altered in any way, the tails of correctly trained NH horses are often much more relaxed, indicating to me that there's much less tension present and more throughness. This can be challenging to find in many Dressage horses unofrtunately.

[7HL]

Assuming the tail has not been altered in any way


WHAT!!??:confused:

You have to be kidding. We go from discussing hooves, to discussing a horses tail!:lol:

[LMH]

WHAT!!??:confused:

You have to be kidding. We go from discussing hooves, to discussing a horses tail!:lol:

The WHOLE horse-everything is always related-hooves and posture, teeth and hooves, body and mind.

You can't just pull one piece out.

That is why discussion flow.:)

[BornToRide]

WHAT!!??:confused:

You have to be kidding. We go from discussing hooves, to discussing a horses tail!:lol:
Horses are very expressive with their tails and it should be oberved and noted. It can be an indicator of pain, discomfort or mental overload. I figured horse people would know this......:)

[7HL]

The WHOLE horse-everything is always related-hooves and posture, teeth and hooves, body and mind.

You can't just pull one piece out.

That is why discussion flow.:)

Horses are very expressive with their tails and it should be oberved and noted. It can be an indicator of pain, discomfort or mental overload. I figured horse people would know this......:)


I want my trimmer or farrier to stick to the hooves, and not to practice anything outside of that. I guess we gon't need vets anymore. A good trimmer can solve it all.:no:

[LMH]

7HL-how sad...you are missing out then on some very educated trimmers that bring a lot to the table.

[7HL]

7HL-how sad...you are missing out then on some very educated trimmers that bring a lot to the table.

What I am missing out on is somone unlicensed, working on my horse, in an area that the are not adequately trained.

[matryoshka]

I agree with 7HL on this point. While we all have things to offer as horsemen, we need to stick to the job at hand. I'm happy to make recommendations to clients based on what I observe. But they have to be the problem solvers. I make note of a problem the owner may not have noticed, but they are responsible for taking that information and doing something to help the horse.

I was surprised to find when I started trimming that I was now viewed as some sort of expert on numerous topics. I can tell people what I've seen and what I've experienced, but I can't give veterinary advice. I tell people where to look, may describe some theories out there, and then leave it up to the owner.

For all that some people on here seem very, very sure of cause and effect for various issues, reality is that research is ongoing, there are vastly different (sometimes conflicting) theories, and not many concrete conclusions. Today's "fact" is tomorrow's fallacy.

[7HL]

Matryoshka,

Good post! no, Great Post!

[Guilherme]

I want my trimmer or farrier to stick to the hooves, and not to practice anything outside of that. I guess we gon't need vets anymore. A good trimmer can solve it all.:no:

I've got no problem with my farrier making a note of what they see in the foot. The foot is a reflection of many aspects of the horse's environment. They also will see things that I sometimes don't as I see the horse daily and they see it periodically. Call it the "New Eye Phenominon." :)

I would add the the list, above, of things that can cause rear end issues:

Poor riding technique
Poor tack fit and adjustment
Poor conformation for the task being performed

As noted the horse is an entire animal, not a collection of more or less integrated parts. While one part or another may show signs of difficulty, the root may lie elsewhere. That's why we have more than one type of equine practitioner.

G.

[7HL]

I've got no problem with my farrier making a note of what they see in the foot. The foot is a reflection of many aspects of the horse's environment. They also will see things that I sometimes don't as I see the horse daily and they see it periodically. Call it the "New Eye Phenominon."


Yes, I would expect my farrier to point out issues with horses hooves.

It's the areas that some barefoot practitioners are getting into that troubles me. It seems that there is a trend among some, is to seek alternative medical recommendations from just about anyone, then using a vet.

There is a trimmer near me that uses techniques of KC La Pierre, that also claims to be an equine cushings expert of sort. They say unless you can say something nice, don't, so...

[LMH]

What I am missing out on is somone unlicensed, working on my horse, in an area that the are not adequately trained.

Do you use a farrier or trimmer? They are not licensed either.:no:

[matryoshka]

Do you use a farrier or trimmer? They are not licensed either.:no:Is this a justification for trimmers crossing the line into handing out veterinary advice? Or making a diagnosis?

[Guilherme]

I, too, have very deep reservations about the growth of "equine veterinary junk science." I watched a boarder a few years back improperly treat a horse suffering from recurring eye infections with billberry instead of having the vet. take a look. The horse ended up blind, the owner walked away from the board bill, and horse ended up with a "buyer of last resort."

As student of equine history (among other things) I'm aware of the massive death rates of earlier times from what are today preventable diseases. The same phenominon occured in human history. We've made massive strides in real science that shows up in extended life spans, curing of previously incurable illnesses, sophisticated surgical proceedures, etc. This has lead to ever increasing expectations (a "revolution of rising expectations").

But there are some conditions that are not currently ameanable to effective treatment. There has also been a major decline in the basic scientific education of the population at large. This has created a massive opening for charletains selling hope and snake oil.

One of my favorite movies is The Outlaw Josey Wales. One of my favorite characters is the Carpetbagger selling snake oil in a white suit. If he were updated to our time he'd be hawking Q-Ray bracelets, magnetic therapy devices, and herbal remedies. Maybe he'd wear Oriental clothes and do "Chinese medicine." Whatever he did would be very profitable for him but too bad for his customers.

G.

[LMH]

Is this a justification for trimmers crossing the line into handing out veterinary advice? Or making a diagnosis?


No but the argument should be precise-if you are against using unlicensed professionals then it is worthy pointing out that farriers in the US are unlicensed. Some don't even have a formal farrier education.

[caballus]

I want my trimmer or farrier to stick to the hooves, and not to practice anything outside of that. I guess we gon't need vets anymore. A good trimmer can solve it all.:no: As is being discussed, a GOOD farrier or a GOOD trimmer is going to be able to tell if the state of the hooves is due to mechanical reasons or from physical, diet, husbandry or environmental issues. There's no "practicing" outside of that ... the hooves are attached to the horse and WHAT GOES IN COMES OUT through the hooves. (among other places) ... If the hooves are imbalanced then those imbalances go right up from the ground to the shoulders/withers/back/pelvis. The horse will compensate for imbalanced hooves but not without detrimental consequences somewhere else in his body as well as his hooves. If the diet is not sufficient to meet the horse's nutritional needs then the hooves will not be as healthy as they could be. If the husbandry is not correct the hooves will indicate with such nasties as thrush or yeast (which is also a metabolic and diet issue), if the environment or the exercise is not correct then the hooves will show it with less than optimal growth and development, etc. etc. So practicing GOOD farrier or GOOD trimming of the hooves is taking the WHOLE horse into consideration and developing a team plan with the owner, perhaps the vet or chiro or massage therapist to develop a care plan that will address ALL issues of the horse.

For initial trims I have a very lengthy interview that goes through diet, environment, husbandry, healthcare, exercise - even the relationship between the horse and his/her human as mental stressors can alter hoof health and development as well. I make recommendations as I feel are apropos to the individual horse and his life as it ALL affects hoof health. Is that practicing veterinary care? I don't think so. Am I overstepping my bounds as a trimmer? I don't think so. I strive to give the BEST CARE I can to each horse according to the individual needs. If you settle for less than that from your farrier or trimmer then, IMO, you're short changing your horse and the horse will be the one who will have to suffer the consequences.

[7HL]

No but the argument should be precise-if you are against using unlicensed professionals then it is worthy pointing out that farriers in the US are unlicensed. Some don't even have a formal farrier education.

Do you use a farrier or trimmer? They are not licensed either.:no:

Aren't those that are just trimmers, doing it because, they could not cut it as a farrier? ;)

I think there is a whole group of farriers out there that would welcome certification and licensing. Not sure you could say the same about trimmers.

I use a farrier, for trimming and shoes. I have talked to him about this and he welcomes licensing and or certification. He has said it would get lots out of the business that don't belong.

[JHUshoer20]

No but the argument should be precise-if you are against using unlicensed professionals then it is worthy pointing out that farriers in the US are unlicensed. Some don't even have a formal farrier education. If by that you're referring to schools understand that the best I ever knew never went to school. If I had anything to say about it about 75% of them would be shut down. Majority merely prostitute the trade. To say someone who took a fly by night 5 week or less short course is as qualified as one who completed a 5 year apprenticeship is laughable at best. Schools are way overrated to say the least.

Aren't those that are just trimmers, doing it because, they could not cut it as a farrier? ;) Yes

I think there is a whole group of farriers out there that would welcome certification and licensing. Not sure you could say the same about trimmers.Right again. Mandatory testing and state licensing yes. Certification no. They are not one and the same and shouldn't be spoken of as if they were.
George

[caballus]

Aren't those that are just trimmers, doing it because, they could not cut it as a farrier?JHU and 7HL ... you are both wrong. At least from where I sit. I became a trimmer because I BELIEVE that the natural hoof is the most healthy for a healthy horse as well as for those who face most pathological issues. I know that if I were to decide to become a farrier then I could without issues. But that's not what I CHOSE to do. I believe that mostly anyone could if one put his or her mind to it and has the physical capabilities to do so. And, that's not belittling farriery work at all ... that's merely speaking of the strength of putting one's mind to a matter.

[LMH]

JHU and 7HL ... you are both wrong. At least from where I sit. I became a trimmer because I BELIEVE that the natural hoof is the most healthy for a healthy horse as well as for those who face most pathological issues. I know that if I were to decide to become a farrier then I could without issues. But that's not what I CHOSE to do. I believe that mostly anyone could if one put his or her mind to it and has the physical capabilities to do so. And, that's not belittling farriery work at all ... that's merely speaking of the strength of putting one's mind to a matter.

precisely

[Tree]

I became a trimmer because that was my interest....working only with bare hooves. Don't know if I would or could've made it as a farrier because I wasn't interested in shoeing horses.

Rather naive to think trimmers washed out as Farriers. :confused:

Tree

[BornToRide]

I want my trimmer or farrier to stick to the hooves, and not to practice anything outside of that. I guess we gon't need vets anymore. A good trimmer can solve it all.:no: Uhm, the hooves are attached to the horse - a horse can make or break hooves. I would want a hoof care proressional to be able to point anything out to me that might need additional attention by a vet or a body worker. If I cannot do this, I am not providing very good care to my clients.

I don't know how many times I have heard myself say: " And the farrier/vet, did not point this out to you??!!" Had that issue again today - TB mare, freshly taken out of shoes (yeahhh!!! :)) , fitted boots because she was tender on hard ground. I had already pointed this out to the owner, but did so again to the trainer today - the mare has a deep seated frog infection. I know this did not just happen overnight - why this wasn't pointed out before by the farrier is a mystery to me and a total disservice to the horse (and owner).

I cannot possibly see how this makes me do something outside of my scope of practice when I point out problems and actually encourage the owner to consult their vet for more help. This is NOT making a diagnosis!:rolleyes:

[Daydream Believer]

Aren't those that are just trimmers, doing it because, they could not cut it as a farrier? ;)



Not hardly! I prefer trimming and enjoy being a specialist, if you will, in the bare hoof and helping horses remain bare and perform soundly if that is what the owner wishes. I have tools other than steel shoes that I use that work just as well for many of my clients and our tools, like hoof boots, glue on boots, and casts, continue to get better and better. :)

I imagine I could learn to nail on a shoe if I wanted to and go to some farrier course but I really doubt I'd need to very much. There are plenty of farriers around who can nail on a shoe if that is what someone wants to do or if a horse really needs that.

Don't for one minute think that trimmers lack training..many of us have been training at our skill for a long time. Some go to courses at great personal expense and others work with mentors. Many of us work towards or achieve certifications also.

[JHUshoer20]

JHU and 7HL ... you are both wrong. At least from where I sit. I became a trimmer because I BELIEVE that the natural hoof is the most healthy for a healthy horse as well as for those who face most pathological issues. I know that if I were to decide to become a farrier then I could without issues. But that's not what I CHOSE to do. I believe that mostly anyone could if one put his or her mind to it and has the physical capabilities to do so. And, that's not belittling farriery work at all ... that's merely speaking of the strength of putting one's mind to a matter.
Won't disagree about putting mind to a matter. Choice of self imposed limitations on what you can do is at issue here. By choosing not to provide all needed services you do not meet the needs of the horses. Some things are more important than your convenience. Is nothing more than a cop out.

I became a trimmer because that was my interest....working only with bare hooves. Don't know if I would or could've made it as a farrier because I wasn't interested in shoeing horses.
See above, not likely.

Rather naive to think trimmers washed out as Farriers. :confused:

Tree Is worse than that. Is never even having had guts enough to try.

Uhm, the hooves are attached to the horse - a horse can make or break hooves. I would want a hoof care proressional to be able to point anything out to me that might need additional attention by a vet or a body worker. If I cannot do this, I am not providing very good care to my clients.

I don't know how many times I have heard myself say: " And the farrier/vet, did not point this out to you??!!" Had that issue again today - TB mare, freshly taken out of shoes (yeahhh!!! :)) , fitted boots because she was tender on hard ground. I had already pointed this out to the owner, but did so again to the trainer today - the mare has a deep seated frog infection. I know this did not just happen overnight - why this wasn't pointed out before by the farrier is a mystery to me and a total disservice to the horse (and owner).

I cannot possibly see how this makes me do something outside of my scope of practice when I point out problems and actually encourage the owner to consult their vet for more help. This is NOT making a diagnosis!:rolleyes:
Wrong on all counts. Above the hairline is not our job or any of our business.
George

[7HL]

Not hardly! I prefer trimming and enjoy being a specialist...

Specialist in what? Training, education from where?

[JHUshoer20]

Not hardly! I prefer trimming and enjoy being a specialist, if you will, in the bare hoof and helping horses remain bare and perform soundly if that is what the owner wishes. I have tools other than steel shoes that I use that work just as well for many of my clients and our tools, like hoof boots, glue on boots, and casts, continue to get better and better. :) Specialist huh? That sure is a favorable spin on doing the work of a 1st year apprentice! LMAO

I imagine I could learn to nail on a shoe if I wanted to and go to some farrier course but I really doubt I'd need to very much. There are plenty of farriers around who can nail on a shoe if that is what someone wants to do or if a horse really needs that.
Someday maybe you'll learn there's a little more to it than just nailing on a shoe

Don't for one minute think that trimmers lack training..many of us have been training at our skill for a long time. Some go to courses at great personal expense and others work with mentors. Many of us work towards or achieve certifications also.
Actually in this country most horseshoers lack proper training. Oh but thats right you "specialists" are so much better qualified right?
George

[George Myers]

I, too, have very deep reservations about the growth of "equine veterinary junk science." ...

As student of equine history (among other things) I'm aware of the massive death rates of earlier times from what are today preventable diseases. The same phenominon occured in human history. We've made massive strides in real science that shows up in extended life spans, curing of previously incurable illnesses, sophisticated surgical proceedures, etc. This has lead to ever increasing expectations (a "revolution of rising expectations").

But there are some conditions that are not currently ameanable to effective treatment. There has also been a major decline in the basic scientific education of the population at large. This has created a massive opening for charletains selling hope and snake oil.

G.

Extended life spans for the horse? Humans maybe - but that's actually more to do with clean water and sanitation than medical and surgical advances. And let's face it, we still can't 'cure' the common cold.

I do agree with you that there has been a proliferation of products and therapies aimed at curing or controlling the many conditions which - despite advances in veterinary medicine - still beset the horse.

There's a truly astonishing array of topical and oral treatments, supplements, additives - equestrianism has become a big market full of people with disposable income that the market traders want to get their mitts on - and a lot of what is sold is pure garbage.

However, before there was a pharmaceuticals industry devoted to the sale of drugs for the treatment of conditions (many of which are related to lifestyle not caused by pathogens) humans relied on alternative treatments. Some of those treatments are highly effective and some of the pharmaceuticals and surgical interventions are demonstrably harmful.

Suppose I am a vet - an anxious horse owner says her horse has a cold and needs something to help it recover. Do I prescribe the ABs in case the horse develops a post-viral bacterial infection - or do I advise her on diet and other measures to help boost the horse's own immune system so it can fight off the virus - and thereby strengthen its immune system?

The pharmaceutical companies would prefer I do the former - common sense and concern for the long term effectiveness of ABs would suggest I should do the latter.

Surely farriery would be improved if it took a leaf out of the barefoot trimmers book and looked at the horse holistically.

I don't trust any 'body' therapist who doesn't look at hoof form and I don't trust any hoof person who doesn't look at the body and how the horse moves, what it eats, how it is worked and how it lives.

The best farriers I have encountered have all had a wealth of knowledge about conformation, lifestyle, diet, saddle fit etc - and were not slow to share it.

[Tree]

Won't disagree about putting mind to a matter. Choice of self imposed limitations on what you can do is at issue here. By choosing not to provide all needed services you do not meet the needs of the horses. Some things are more important than your convenience. Is nothing more than a cop out.


See above, not likely.
Is worse than that. Is never even having had guts enough to try.

I don't quite see how making personal choices is really an issue at all. You're making some huge assumptions.

I'm hired because of what I do....specialize in barefoot trimming. If horse owners wanted more, they would hire someone who provided more.

And I think it typical of men to think it's nothing but guts. I've got guts....I'm using the most controversial trim method available! :D

Tree

[Daydream Believer]

Someday maybe you'll learn there's a little more to it than just nailing on a shoe



Really? No kidding? Why don't 99% of the farriers I know have a clue how to do a correct trim? All I see are shoes nailed on over poor trims. :lol: At least I don't do that!

[JHUshoer20]

Surely farriery would be improved if it took a leaf out of the barefoot trimmers book and looked at the horse holistically.
And what makes you think none of them have?


The best farriers I have encountered have all had a wealth of knowledge about conformation, lifestyle, diet, saddle fit etc - and were not slow to share it. True enough but is not that black and white of an issue.
George

[JHUshoer20]

And I think it typical of men to think it's nothing but guts. I've got guts....I'm using the most controversial trim method available! :D

Tree
Hope you got a good lawyer on full time retainer

[7HL]

...I've got guts....I'm using the most controversial trim method available! :D

Tree

We've all seen the photos, blood letting and all.:eek:

[JHUshoer20]

Really? No kidding? Why don't 99% of the farriers I know have a clue how to do a correct trim? All I see are shoes nailed on over poor trims. :lol: At least I don't do that!
Don't know. Assuming there's any truth to what you say I'd say is probably a very poor area where clients have 2 questions when they call:
1) What do you cost?

2) when can you get here?

Sound familiar?

Would probably be better if they were all licensed:yes:
George

[J.D.]

Is this a justification for trimmers crossing the line into handing out veterinary advice? Or making a diagnosis?


A good hoof care professional has knowledge that can cross the gray lines. But one needs to be aware of where the lines ARE!:yes::yes::cool:

[J.D.]

No but the argument should be precise-if you are against using unlicensed professionals then it is worthy pointing out that farriers in the US are unlicensed. Some don't even have a formal farrier education.

Would YOU want ME to help YOU in an Emergency?:confused:

I am not licensed or certified. I do have experiences in the farriery world that have helped a lot of horses, owners and both farriers and trimmers.:sadsmile:

[Daydream Believer]

Don't know. Assuming there's any truth to what you say I'd say is probably a very poor area where clients have 2 questions when they call:
1) What do you cost?

2) when can you get here?

Sound familiar?

Would probably be better if they were all licensed:yes:
George

I don't get asked those questions much at all. I usually get asked what I would do for X problem and we get into a discussion of how I deal with them. Many of my clients come to me because traditional farriers have not had success with their horse's problems and they are interested in trying a different approach. I've been working with local vets a lot this summer and am getting referrals from them also. :)

I don't charge much more than the other farriers in this area for a trim and my charges depend on how far I have to drive. It ranges from $30 to $45 a horse.

I'm fine with licensing and am close to applying for a tough peer reviewed certification and am building up the documentation and case studies required to apply...probably not dissimilar to a certification from a farrier organization. I have no issues with any sort of national standard test as long as it was fair and tough. I know a farrier in this area that just got some sort of AFA certification and I'm trying to figure out how. I have trimmed behind this person for months now and ended up with a lot of his/her previous clinets...particularly at one barn. How he/she could get a certification and not be able to do a basic trim is beyond me.

[JHUshoer20]

I have trimmed behind this person for months now and ended up with a lot of his/her previous clinets...particularly at one barn. How he/she could get a certification and not be able to do a basic trim is beyond me.
Sounds like something Vickey would have said. You both from the same area?

My 1st few years shoeing I too replaced a lot of older more experienced and much better shoers often for some stupid reasons. Clients will praise you till your head founders though.

Hang around a few years and watch yourself get fired as those did before you:lol:
George

[Guilherme]

Extended life spans for the horse? Humans maybe - but that's actually more to do with clean water and sanitation than medical and surgical advances. And let's face it, we still can't 'cure' the common cold.

No, but we can cure pneumonia. Few die of colds; vast numbers used to die of pneumonia.

Horse AND human life spans are vastly greater. So are useful life spans. Clean water is a major contributor; so is a decline in smoking. But so is the availability of effective antibiotics. There are even some effective antivirals, with more on the way.

Don't forget vastly safer anasthesia. And microsurgery. And physical therapy.

I suggest you spend a little time studying epidemeology and the history of communicable diseases. You would clear your mind of a lot of nonsense.

I do agree with you that there has been a proliferation of products and therapies aimed at curing or controlling the many conditions which - despite advances in veterinary medicine - still beset the horse.

There's a truly astonishing array of topical and oral treatments, supplements, additives - equestrianism has become a big market full of people with disposable income that the market traders want to get their mitts on - and a lot of what is sold is pure garbage.

However, before there was a pharmaceuticals industry devoted to the sale of drugs for the treatment of conditions (many of which are related to lifestyle not caused by pathogens) humans relied on alternative treatments. Some of those treatments are highly effective and some of the pharmaceuticals and surgical interventions are demonstrably harmful.

I commend to you Vol. II, Horsemanship and Horsemanstership from the U.S. Cavalry Association. It was the last horsecare text of the U.S. Cavalry and was written reflecting several centuries of the best vet. information available, but just before the explosion of knowledge that would come from WWII. It will demonstrate just how wrong you are in your comparison of traditional and modern vet. medicine. Go to http://uscavalry.jeo.net/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=136&osCsid=c3b178b9c6968650c79e9edb60bfec45

Suppose I am a vet - an anxious horse owner says her horse has a cold and needs something to help it recover. Do I prescribe the ABs in case the horse develops a post-viral bacterial infection - or do I advise her on diet and other measures to help boost the horse's own immune system so it can fight off the virus - and thereby strengthen its immune system?

The pharmaceutical companies would prefer I do the former - common sense and concern for the long term effectiveness of ABs would suggest I should do the latter.

Actually none of the above. If you were a vet you just committed malpractice by failing to do a SOAP.

Surely farriery would be improved if it took a leaf out of the barefoot trimmers book and looked at the horse holistically.

I don't trust any 'body' therapist who doesn't look at hoof form and I don't trust any hoof person who doesn't look at the body and how the horse moves, what it eats, how it is worked and how it lives.

The best farriers I have encountered have all had a wealth of knowledge about conformation, lifestyle, diet, saddle fit etc - and were not slow to share it.

First, don't call me Shirley. :D

Second, you've got it half right. A smart farrier/trimmer looks at the feet and makes a determination on the needs of the horse for effective foot care. The best foot care pro in the world can't do much if the foot is defective due to inadequate husbandry. Or poor equitation practices. But their job is to do their own SOAP analysis. They must be familiar with their limitations and expertise when they do this. No hoof care professional has a roving commission to do good. The best that I've ever known knew this and acted accordingly.

IOW if you ask them a question, even a fairly open ended one, you've get a good answer. But they expected questions, not being tasked with giving lectures.

Again, history tells us that we live far better than even our ancestors of just two generations back. The richness of what he have sometimes deludes us into concentrating on what we lack vice what we have. The "snake oil sellers" dearly love, and encourage and profit from, his state.

G.

[J.D.]

JHUshoer20.......Hang around a few years and watch yourself get fired as those did before you:lol:
George



I like getting fired George; New client price lists when they call ya back !:yes::yes::yes::cool:

[LMH]

Would YOU want ME to help YOU in an Emergency?:confused:

I am not licensed or certified. I do have experiences in the farriery world that have helped a lot of horses, owners and both farriers and trimmers.:sadsmile:

That is my point JD! 7HL was griping that hoof care folks were doing things without being licensed...like nutrition or body work of some sort, I assume.

MY point was you let farriers touch your horse and they are not licensed.

Licensing does not a professional make.

I was on your side bozo.;)

[J.D.]

That is my point JD! 7HL was griping that hoof care folks were doing things without being licensed...like nutrition or body work of some sort, I assume.

MY point was you let farriers touch your horse and they are not licensed.

Licensing does not a professional make.

I was on your side bozo.;)

My face is soooooooo RED; kinda like my hair!!!!:eek::uhoh::uhoh::dead: used to be Red, graying now.

[LMH]

*snort*-thats ok JD baby...you guys are just SO used to talking smack to trimmers it is just a knee-jerk reaction to think I was bad talking ya.;)

I am still feeling the love.:winkgrin:

[J.D.]

*snort*-thats ok JD baby...you guys are just SO used to talking smack to trimmers it is just a knee-jerk reaction to think I was bad talking ya.;)

I am still feeling the love.:winkgrin:

Me tooo! I owe ya 2 Merlots NOW!!!!!!

[Daydream Believer]

Sounds like something Vickey would have said. You both from the same area?

No, not even close.

[7HL]

That is my point JD! 7HL was griping that hoof care folks were doing things without being licensed...like nutrition or body work of some sort, I assume.

MY point was you let farriers touch your horse and they are not licensed.

Licensing does not a professional make.

I was on your side bozo.;)

It was more then being not licensed. Farriers and trimmers should not be venturing into areas that should be treated by a Vet.

There is no state licensing of farriers or trimmers in my state, probably due to the high amount of Amish farriers. The Amish wiill do feet, teeth and geld your horse, in some cases it's the same guy, maybe on the same day if your lucky.

I know many farriers that would welcome licensing. I have no problem at all with other equine trades being licensed either.

In most cases however lots horse owners are just concerned about cost and not the quality of care. Why do you think there are so many that end up saying, it doesn't look that hard and they can do it themselves? That's another reason barefoot is so popular. Most people have a difficult time hammering a nail into wood, let alone a horses hooves.

There was even a thread on here not long ago,that someone was upset that her farrier expected payment when he was done and not giving her 30 days like all other businesses.

[JHUshoer20]

I like getting fired George; New client price lists when they call ya back !:yes::yes::yes::cool:LOL me too:lol:
Only 2 kinds of horseshoers in this world-Those that have been fired and those who will be:D
George

[rcloisonne]

I know many farriers that would welcome licensing.
And there are many more who wouldn't. Take a look at the various licensing threads in the farrier section on horseshoes.com. I would have to say the majority there are firmly against farrier licensing.

[7HL]

And there are many more who wouldn't. Take a look at the various licensing threads in the farrier section on horseshoes.com. I would have to say the majority there are firmly against farrier licensing.

There are lots of reasons why people object licensing, from not being qualified to those that object to any government knowledge of their business. Lots of cash customers in the equine service trades.

[LMH]

I find the opposite-people usually contact me when quality is more important than cost. (and not just me to trim but to find qualified help-so requests come from ALL over the states).

I don't get many contacts that are interested in saving a buck-most have hoof issues, horse lameness issues, are frustrated, have had bad hoof care (shod or bare) and just want answers and help.

I think barefoot is more 'popular' because people reach the end of the rope with so many bad farriers.

Now what is good for the goose...well it is payback time. I am NOW seeing crappy trimming work all over. Someone calls and wants me to come see the trimmers work...I arrive and am like :uhoh:

joy joy oh joy.

[rcloisonne]

Well, I would not complain but I have seen this person's work and it is not good...yet they got some kind of certification? I'm still trying to figure that out. A certification is only useful if it truly tests skills and does not award someone who is not qualified....thus my earlier comments on a national certification program. It must be tough and fair or it's not going to help much.
True. And the worst trim I've ever seen done on any horse was performed by a trimmer "certified" with this organization:

http://www.aanhcp.net/

Not only is she certified to trim and spread the word, she's also certified as an "instructor". Heaven help us! :rolleyes:

[JHUshoer20]

And there are many more who wouldn't. Take a look at the various licensing threads in the farrier section on horseshoes.com. I would have to say the majority there are firmly against farrier licensing.
People in favor outnumber by a nearly 2/3rds majority. This is by surveys done not just by AFA but by yours truly as well. The hard line anti licensing folks are about 10% of the trade. They are very vocal about it but their numbers are much smaller than you think. If you look at the arguments on horseshoes.com you'll see it is only a few that do all the posting about that issue.
George

[7HL]

....I think barefoot is more 'popular' because people reach the end of the rope with so many bad farriers...

....Now what is good for the goose...well it is payback time. I am NOW seeing crappy trimming work all over. Someone calls and wants me to come see the trimmers work...I arrive and am like :uhoh:...

There is bad on both sides of the fence. I don't believe in absolutes when it comes to shoe or barefoot.

[Daydream Believer]

True. And the worst trim I've ever seen done on any horse was performed by a trimmer "certified" with this organization:

http://www.aanhcp.net/

Not only is she certified to trim and spread the word, she's also certified as an "instructor". Heaven help us! :rolleyes:

Well, there are a bunch of different groups right now giving certifications and while there are some good trimmers in that organization, I have heard some weird stuff is being taught these days.

[BornToRide]

Well, there are a bunch of different groups right now giving certifications and while there are some good trimmers in that organization, I have heard some weird stuff is being taught these days.
Unfortunately there are too many out there that focus too much on putting their "unique" stamp on everything rather than focusing on what's truly best for the affected individual. Many farriers and trimmers are no different in this respect. Beware of too many Trademarks in a person's business.

[rcloisonne]

People in favor outnumber by a nearly 2/3rds majority. This is by surveys done not just by AFA but by yours truly as well. The hard line anti licensing folks are about 10% of the trade. They are very vocal about it but their numbers are much smaller than you think. If you look at the arguments on horseshoes.com you'll see it is only a few that do all the posting about that issue.
George
Perhaps, but I should think any survey conducted by the AFA would be skewed, as most of their membership is comprised of certified (plus) farriers. Maybe you could start another thread there in the near future. I'd be interested to see the results but if I were a betting person... $20.00 your stated "2/3 majority" isn't even close. ;)

[7HL]

I have heard some weird stuff is being taught these days.And we've seen pictures of it on here.

[LMH]

And we've seen pictures of it on here.

yes, healthy stride shoeing.

[caballus]

Won't disagree about putting mind to a matter. Choice of self imposed limitations on what you can do is at issue here. By choosing not to provide all needed services you do not meet the needs of the horses. Some things are more important than your convenience. Is nothing more than a cop out. la-la-la ...

Wrong on all counts. Above the hairline is not our job or any of our business.
George So, then, you really don't trim according to the individual needs of the individual horse? You just look at the hooves? Well, guess its more business for trimmers from your side of the planet, then! Thanks for the extra business.

[J.D.]

7HL.....
I use a farrier, for trimming and shoes. I have talked to him about this and he welcomes licensing and or certification. He has said it would get lots out of the business that don't belong




I shall make a qoute: " If one toughts Mediocraty, GREATNESS is bye the wayside". Hermin Cain.


Look up the definition of a "standard".

[JHUshoer20]

Perhaps, but I should think any survey conducted by the AFA would be skewed, as most of their membership is comprised of certified (plus) farriers. Maybe you could start another thread there in the near future. I'd be interested to see the results but if I were a betting person... $20.00 your stated "2/3 majority" isn't even close. ;)
Actually it's more like 15-20% strongly supporting licensing 10% loudly opposed and all the rest just don't care one way or the other. Put your $20 on that it'd be a safe bet. but those in favor do outnumber.
George