What should I do?

[daisyfields]

I'm really not sure what the best thing to do is, maybe someone much more tactful than I can help me out.

I've had my trainer for about 2-1/2 years and she's been great, really helped turned my horse and I around, is a great friend, and teaches me in a way I just really understand. Well, because of some medical findings my horse is now ridden with a noseband instead of a bit. I don't think she was very happy with the decision. When she rode my horse that day I was literally in tears afterward, partly upset with myself for being a coward and upset about what had happened. She rode her so roughly I couldn't even believe; almost nonstop whipping and kicking, screaming at her, jerking her face all over, even whipped her on the neck. When I took her bridle with the noseband off, it's covered in sheepskin mind you, her nose was rubbed sompletely raw to the point it was almost bleeding.

I've just taken some lessons on the school horses since then until my break for the winter so I can try and figure things out. My problem lies in that I understand what she teaches me so well and she really does know a lot, but I can never forget that day with the whites of my horse's eyes showing and her eventually bucking, rearing, and bolting to try and escape. I've done my research and really can't find anyone else around here to train with, plus I'm quite nervous about telling her I'm not training with her anymore if I find someone else. What would you guys do, just train on your own or continue lessons on school horses?

[lizathenag]

Have your spoken to her about your feelings about that day? What was her response? Why weren't you able to stop the bad ride?

[Bearhunter]

Trust your gut. No horse should endure abuse. If necessary, find a temporary boarding situation until you can find a more reputable trainer. I am sure someone can help you find one in your area. But it sounds like you need to get out of there, and soon. Just my 2 cents.

[Sanely Eccentric]

I personally would not take lessons from someone I do not respect in their riding and care of horses, so I would be done with this trainer. When my mare needed a bridle change due to an injury, my trainer asked me about it and accepted it readily when given the reasoning even though it wasn't a typical dressage look. Yes, she complimented us a month later when we were able to move back into a full bridle on how nice it looked and glad the injury was healed, but she did not fuss about it. When she rides my mare I see her treat my mare with firmness and consistency, but always respectful of her sensitive nature. My mare and I are making steady progress with this trainer and we both respect her, which is why I will stay with her. I have left another trainer that was, shall we say, less than this.

One option if you don't have another trainer handy but don't want to stay with this one is to check out Jane Savoie's Happy Horse program. There's a thread on it in the dressage section of COTH. I purchased it and love it. Whether you are into dressage or another discipline it would be a beneficial program. I use it in addition to my weekly lesson, but if I didn't have a trainer I would think Jane's program would be quite beneficial.

Just my two cents worth. :)

[BuddyRoo]

My gut reaction is to say "Don't let the woman on your horse ever again."

But I guess I have more questions....

-Why would she be upset about the horse having a noseband?
-What was happening that she needed to get on your horse? Is that something that normally happens?
-What was she so frustrated about?
-Has this sort of thing happened before--either with your horse or any others that you're aware of?
-Did trainer seem to be upset about something else? What does SHE say about the incident?

Generally speaking, I am not okay with someone being rough with a horse. But I can think of a handful of instances where the situation called for pushing through some bucking/rearing/etc and it involved a lot of crop. It probably didn't look nice...but I felt it was necessary. (and it was my own horse)

Horses first. I guess that's all I can help you with. Put your horse first. If you think you can continue training with this person w/o a repeat occurrence? Fine. If you think this was a fluke? Fine. If the person apologizes, tells you why she was doing what she was doing and you're cool with that? Fine. I personally don't think that I would let someone like that throw a leg over. Might still take lessons from them, but I wouldn't let them on my horse.

[pj]

Not to sound snippy but...you need to grow a backbone. You let your horse down when you stood and allowed the trainer to abuse your horse. I would have told her to get off. Take lessons from her if you want on school horses but she'd never get on MY horse again. If she does other horses as she did yours then I wouldn't even take lessons from her.

[Sakura]

Not to sound snippy but...you need to grow a backbone. You let your horse down when you stood and allowed the trainer to abuse your horse. I would have told her to get off. Take lessons from her if you want on school horses but she'd never get on MY horse again. If she does other horses as she did yours then I wouldn't even take lessons from her.

What pj said. You are your horse's voice.

[War Admiral]

I agree, I'd have been packing my stuff before she ever got off the horse.

What discipline do you ride? I find it hard to believe you can't find another trainer for ANY of the English disciplines in Rhode Island...???

[Stacie]

What this "trainer" (and I use the term loosely) did to your horse is highly disturbing and *completely unacceptable*. You know this.

All trainers have some underlying philosophy about training. IMHO the best trainers understand the psychology and physiology of the horses and the riders and use the kindest, least painful methods available to get the training done. It's about training, not dominance. Sure, sometimes a horse needs a good whack, but if the trainer is always resorting to that kind of training, they don't have too many other tricks in their magic bag of training choices. You might learn how to ride from a person like that (and maybe learn to ride incorrectly), but surely you aren't going to learn how to be a horse trainer. If you ever want to teach your horse anything and not just ride school-masters, you are going to have to learn how to train. The point being......this trainer is not the one you need, the one who is going to really make you a trainer. Time to move on. You are ready to move beyond her.

It would certainly help if you could go the traditional route and find another local trainer. But hey, there are other options.
1. identifying people you can clinic with a few times a year who will help you move forward in big ways when you see them. Wendy Murdoch gives amazing clinics that really permanently impact your riding and they way you think about training. http://www.wendymurdoch.com/
2. An instructor you travel to, or comes to you once a month or once every other month. You could get together with a group of other riders and invite the instructor in once a month to give both group and private lessons.
3. Use another rider as your eyes on the ground and you can do the same for her.
4. Have someone video your rides so you can watch them afterward to analyze and form a plan for your next ride.
5. Use Jane Savoie's videos. They are very good. My husband thought they were great (the man never took a riding lesson in his life, except from me. Although now he wants to clinic with Wendy :-) )
6. Find another rider who is really good and who can mentor you some.
7. Go to local shows. Identify the riders and horses that you want to be like and find out how they are getting their training.
8. Network Network Network. Join the area organizations for your discipline. You will get the scoop on upcoming clinics and find out about trainers who are known within the group. Many trainers don't advertise. You just have to "know" about them.

Good luck. You will be beginning a new phase in your learning and this will be soooo much more interesting than what you are doing now. And your horse will love you for it :winkgrin:

[Ambrey]

Different trainers have comfort levels with different types of "discipline" and training. If your comfort level doesn't match your trainer's, move on.

I'm a total discipline wimp- to the point that my totally gentle and soft-spoken trainer yells at me for being a wimp ;). I could just never be happy with a trainer who was rough with my horse. None of the dressage trainers I've worked with have been like that, thank goodness!

[chai]

I am not clear on what behavior your horse showed to result in such a beating but imho, but if you saw something that your gut is telling you is wrong, you must speak up or find a new arrangement where you can trust your trainer. There are so many good trainers out there who will help you identify and work through a problem instead of beating the daylights out of your horse which, imho, just causes more problems of fear and evasion. What horse can go out in the ring and perform if it's terrified that one small step out of line will result in a severe beating?
It's important to remember these things:
1. You are paying for a service.
2. Your trainer is not infallible.
3. You cannot step back and do nothing while someone beats your horse.
4. Most important: Like most of us, you are probably making sacrifices in other aspects of your life to keep a horse. Horse time is our catharsis, our joy and our fun. If someone is taking away from those aspects of your horse time, it's time to make a change. This sport is too expensive and the damage from a bad trainer is too great to put up with a situation you know is bad for you and your horse.

I worked for world class trainer one summer and I saw what can happen when a man beats a horse so severely, it comes close to death. That monster broke a wonderful horse's spirit because of his ugly temper and the pressure to get quick results. I will never forget the sight of that dear horse with his head hanging low to the ground, covered from ears to tail in welts, waiting for the vet to come because he was so badly beaten, he became physically ill. I'm furious just remembering that event over 30 years ago and I believe there is a special place in hell for people who do these things. If your trainer has a penchant for beating horses, don't wait until your horse suffers permanently or develops fears that you cannot reverse.
Best of luck to you.

[vbunny]

Maybe she just had a bad day and your horse put her over the edge. Talk to her and see if you can work things out. Bridges are easy to burn when they aren't your own.

[mbm]

Well, because of some medical findings my horse is now ridden with a noseband instead of a bit. I don't think she was very happy with the decision. When she rode my horse that day I was literally in tears afterward, partly upset with myself for being a coward and upset about what had happened. She rode her so roughly I couldn't even believe; almost nonstop whipping and kicking, screaming at her, jerking her face all over, even whipped her on the neck. When I took her bridle with the noseband off, it's covered in sheepskin mind you, her nose was rubbed sompletely raw to the point it was almost bleeding.

i am so sorry you are having to deal with this. it stinks.

however, going by what you wrote above what your "trainer" did was abuse pure and simple. i have no problem with being firm with a horse. but whipping them and jerking on their face is two opposite requests - basically she was telling your horse GO!!!! STOP!!! and then got mad when your horse go confused.

good trainers dont behave in this manner. if they get frustrated, they get off and try another day.

my suggestion is to find another trainer.

[greysandbays]

If OP has been with this trainer two and a half years and this is the first time she feels the trainer has been too rough, this obviously wasn't the way things generally went.

Horses aren't saints who can do no wrong. Some days they can be total a**holes. Trainers can have bad days too. A horse being an a**hole co-inciding with a trainer's bad day shouldn't be grounds for eternal damnation of the trainer.

[Rhyadawn]

Might have been a bad day, but there is no excuse for this type of venting on an animal.

If your horse needed discipline thats different, but from the situation as you described it it doesn't sound like it.

I would toss the trainer. There are plenty of online and written resources that you can consult while you search out a new trainer. 2 years or not its you and your horse that are going to suffer in a bad relationship.

[slc2]

There are other possibilities of what was going on that day.

One is that the trainer actually WAS having problems controlling your horse, and that the horse was simply feeling fresh or naughty that day. Horses DO that. They decide they want to go back to the barn or follow another horse, and the rider says, 'no no precious' and the horse says, well, if I buck like mad, you may change your mind. Horses can be naughty just like children, and they can be rambunctious, inattentive, even have days when they simply do not want to do what the rider wants and not because they're in pain or mistreated - just because they are animals, not robots or machines - especially if not in a 'program' where they get ridden in a routine 4-5 days a week month in and out. Even the quietest, healthiest, most sensible horse has naughty, disobedient days.

Too, perhaps the horse has gotten really spoiled and untrained. Perhaps she's been allowed to go where she pleases and not turn or be obedient when yiou ride her in the noseband, either due to your inexperience or the noseband or both, and now when the trainer gets on the horse, the horse simply won't be obedient. This happens so incredibly often it's worth mention and consideration.

Too, the equipment, that noseband, may be well nigh impossible to use and actually get the kind of response the trainer is accustomed to - something more immediate and definite.

The main reason western trainers traditionally do NOT keep most horses in a bosal forever (which in some ways is similar to the noseband) is that there comes a point where they get 'bracey' (pulling, strong, unwilling to turn). That's the point where they start using a bit on the horse - for some western trainers, it's a snaffle bit, for others, a curb bit. But they stop using the noseband at some point, and the horse tells them when that is.

You may be very happy noodling around letting the horse go where ever it wants, responding a little, but that isn't how trainers ride horses.

Additionally, I am VERY concerned that if this noseband rubs your horse so badly, that the reason you like riding her in it, the reason she's light for you, or enjoyable for you - is that this noseband HURTS her, and that's why she's responsive in it, because it hurts her if she doesn't give instantly, and that should not be happening.

I would be VERY concerned that this noseband is not properly fitted to the horse or that it is the wrong shape for the horse if sheepskin padded parts of the noseband rub her raw when the trainer rides her - regardless of how badly the ride went. THAT SHOULD NOT HAPPEN. It's actually shocking to think that a padded noseband would rub the horse raw under ANY circumstances and I'd have it off that horses head in 1 second if it was rubbing that horse that easily, and additionally, I'd never use it again. THAT IS JUST NOT RIGHT.

The other possibility is tha the trainer was being an ass, and getting harsh with the horse or making the horse act up so she could say, 'See? This noseband thing doesn't work'.

And to be honest, in these posts, that's exactly what she's being accused of, and you are leading the charge, and it is a pretty strong accusation, that someone would deliberately abuse a horse to make a point, or even, simply because she lost her temper, she jerked the crap out of this horse so bad the horse's face is rubbed raw.

It's also very likely some 'helpful' person has run to her to make sure she knows you posted this - and you may find yourself in a rather unpleasant situation vis a vis this trainer in fairly short order.

I already spoke my piece on this noseband thing. I think it's something you want to use without any justification or medical evidence or any decent input from any other trainers (this one sounds like she may not be a good one to get advice from, if the second possibility is true).

Clearly - this is something you just want to do and you're convinced because when you bought the horse, the owner handed you an ugly looking bit to use on her that she has nerve damage and can't be ridden in a bit, despite having NO nerve tests, a dentist or anyone else look at the mouth, or even CONSIDERING that the one 'symptom' you see - the horse going quietly around with one side of its neck concave and not contacting the rein on that side, can very well be due to training, not nerve damage.

The thing is - no matter how illogical, that is, in fact, your choice, and yiou are entitled to put whatever equipment on the horse you want. But you may not EVER get along with ANY trainer on this issue, the trainer may actually have some very valid points (perhaps not this one, if she's like you say, but others), and you may have to accept that you will be alone in this if you can't accept what any trainer recommends.

And - there was no medical evidence of nerve damage in anything you ever wrote on this bb about this horse. No tests have been done, no dental work - nothing. The vet merely said this MIGHT be why the horse goes around with its neck concave on one side. More than anything, I can't understand why, you WANT this to be true.

[Jaegermonster]

A trainer is supposed to be a professional. A professional doesn't have a temper tantrum and take it out on a horse.

I would have jerked her right off that horse and stomped her dry. And then I would have loaded my horse up that day and been gone like the wind.

[fivehorses]

A very similar thing happened to me, except my horse was at another farm for training.
The trainer beat the snot out of my horse, and the more I protested, the more he beat my horse. I realized I was the audience, and if I left, the guy would (hopefully) stop beating my horse.

I came home, found a truck and trailer and went and brought my horse home.

Today, I am older, less vulnerable and don't put up with things as easily as I use to or had to.

If a person is beating on your horse, in fact, the person is also beating on you, showing you no respect through your horse.

I appreciate she can 'teach' you in ways you understand, but I do not support people who need to teach a horse through beating them. I hope you find another trainer in your area who has values more aligned with your own, or at least more aligned to proper training methods.

That sounds like a person out of control.

[BuddyRoo]

I guess I just have a hard time on this one because I don't think we're seeing the whole picture. I don't disagree (as I mentioned above) that my gut reaction is "never on my horse again"...but where the REST of the story?

The OP hasn't been back to answer questions or anything...and I have to wonder what the rest of the story IS. Not that the OP is lying...but there are 3 sides to every story (at least)...yours, mine and the truth.

[BasqueMom]

Yes, you need to talk to the trainer and find why she resulted to such tactics that day.
Sometimes the shock of seeing something like that freezes you from stepping up for
your horse.

Years ago, when I first started riding and had bought my first horse, I went to mount him
from a mounting block, he moved away a tad. The trainer was standing next to us and
took the reins and beat him across the barn with them. It was my first ride after foot surgery, was wearing funky snow boots which was the only thing the left foot and the pin
would fit in so I was taking more than the normal time to mount.

For the next year, it was always a challenge bridling Fudge. I moved him not too long
after that. Eventually he was easy to bridle again. But I've always kicked myself for
letting it happen. I was new to horses, thought trainers walked on water, didn't totally
understand what brought about the beating. Know now just a hand on the horse to
move him back toward me would have been all that was needed. Fudge wasn't one to
dance about when being mounted.

From then on, always watched new trainers ride and handle horses and then ride mine
before committing to training. Asked questions of other boarders.

Remember, it is your horse and only you can be his advocate, his defender.

[greysandbays]

OP didn't include enough useful info to decide if this was "abuse" or not. Too much "OMG my poor, poor horsie and poor, poor me" and not enough facts.

If all this happened in the span of five or ten minutes, and the horse was being a butthead but got straightened out and things settled down, then it wasn't abuse.

If it ran on for fifteen, twenty minutes or a half-hour or longer, then of course it wasn't appropriate.

[Chief2]

Trainers make their living by showing results on the horses they are paid to train. Some who have conquered a niche area feel that fast results in their training equal a better reputation for producing trained horses, and results in more clients coming in the door through word of mouth advertising, thus increasing the monetary income through a faster turnover in clientele. A horse who may be slower to produce results does not reflect well on this type of trainer, and they don't want their reputation attached to this type of horse, for whatever reason.

In reality, I suspect your trainer is extremely comfortable producing fast results in bitted horses, does not feel comfortable working with horses in they type of set-up yours is in, cannot match the training results she gets in the other horses, and doesn't want to work in this set-up because everyone will find out she can't get the job done quickly in this manner. My guess is that after she got on the horse and they went through the wringer, she dismounted and blamed the entire fiasco on the horse or the set-up. The deficiency most likely lies within herself.

Rhode Island is not the outpost of horse training. You need someone who can work with a horse in this set-up and teach you to do likewise. I lknow of someone empathetic in Massachusetts who rides and trains this way all the time. If she can't help you, she may know of someone who can, and I am PM'ing you with the name and location. In the meantime, ride your own horse without the 'benefit' of your usual trainer, and don't let her onboard again. If it means moving, then so be it. She is not the trainer for your horse. JMHO.

[Tilly]

Not to sound snippy but...you need to grow a backbone. You let your horse down when you stood and allowed the trainer to abuse your horse. I would have told her to get off. Take lessons from her if you want on school horses but she'd never get on MY horse again. If she does other horses as she did yours then I wouldn't even take lessons from her.

I completely agree. If a 'trainer' got on my pony and rode her like that, I would go icy in about half a second. I am surprised that you didn't say anything, OP.

It is up to you whether you should leave the trainer or not. If this is how she is in general, or if she can't keep her temper under control, I personally would be looking for a new trainer.

[mbm]

horses aren't assholes. they go as we ride them period. and no horse, no matter how rambunctious, deserves to be treated in a manner that confuses it and or escalates the issues.

a GOOD trainer will work thru an issues with the appropriate amount of aids and give the animal a clear signal of release.

as for different sides to the story - sure there could be 10 different sides to the story - the fact remains the trainer was treating the horse unfairly and in a manner that didnt teach the horse anything except fear and confusion.

if a horse is baulking you tell it to go forward NOW! you dont simultaneously shut the door (yanking on its face).

if the horse is rambunctious you again ask it to go forward and allow it to do so. a forward horse is less likely to act out.

if you ask a horse to stop and it wont, sure, you might have to escalate but why then beat it with the whip?

a trainer giving a student grief over tack usage is just bad manners. make your case and then accept what the student wants. if the student is doing something you dont approve of - ask them to leave. dont take it out on the horse.

and finally, just becuase a trainer is x aggressive/determined/violent - doenst mean the student must be the same.

student can and should find a traienr that has similar values and morals. it just makes things easier.

[greysandbays]

horses aren't assholes. they go as we ride them period. and no horse, no matter how rambunctious, deserves to be treated in a manner that confuses it and or escalates the issues.

Horses aren't machines that "go as we ride them". If they did, no excellent rider would ever have a horse perform to less than an excellent standard. Horses have minds and are perfectly capable of deciding they are not required to participate in whatever the rider intends. And, yes, they are capable of being outright assholes. Some of them even make it a lifetime endeavor.

a GOOD trainer will work thru an issues with the appropriate amount of aids and give the animal a clear signal of release.

as for different sides to the story - sure there could be 10 different sides to the story - the fact remains the trainer was treating the horse unfairly and in a manner that didnt teach the horse anything except fear and confusion.

We don't know that this is the case. We don't know that the horse didn't convincingly learn that whatever crap it thought it was going to pull isn't as much fun as it thought it was going to be.

if a horse is baulking you tell it to go forward NOW! you dont simultaneously shut the door (yanking on its face).

if the horse is rambunctious you again ask it to go forward and allow it to do so. a forward horse is less likely to act out.

if you ask a horse to stop and it wont, sure, you might have to escalate but why then beat it with the whip?
A horse can one second be too forward, and in the next second balking and sucking back. We don't KNOW that this "go foward NOW" and the "yanking on the face" were in fact simultaneous.

a trainer giving a student grief over tack usage is just bad manners. make your case and then accept what the student wants. if the student is doing something you dont approve of - ask them to leave. dont take it out on the horse.

Again, we don't KNOW that the trainer actually disapproved of the tack usage. Just that the OP suspects she does.

and finally, just becuase a trainer is x aggressive/determined/violent - doenst mean the student must be the same.
No, but sometimes if the student is habitually too soft, it means that on occasion the trainer has to be too hard. If pussy-footing around was a reliable way to make progress, nobody would need trainers.

student can and should find a traienr that has similar values and morals. it just makes things easier. Not if "similar values and morals" has resulted in a similar level of ability. Might make for a certain comfort level, but is not exactly a recipe for progress.

[spurgirl]

If your trainer has clients in RI and CT, and LIVES in SE CT, is of a certain age (mid 50's by now)...she may be a trainer I had about 10 years ago, who did the about the same exact thing you are describing to my horse-a very nice, but somewhat green filly, at the time. This is her standard MO, she worked with me for about 1 1/2 years,did a great job with me and my "made" horse and also taught 2 others at my barn, until that day that she abused my horse. If you would like to give me the name privately, I can either tell you to do what you wish (since I don't know her), or if it the same woman-tell you to fire her at once, as she is a serial abuser-it's the way she (eventually) trains:no:I have no interest in naming anyone publicly, but I do care about you and your horse. Take Care!

[FancyFree]

If it made you uncomfortable OP, definitely have a talk with your trainer. I had a dressage trainer once that left spur holes in the sides of my pigheaded mare. He hated to ride her and she hated him. So I never had him ride her again. He was a good instructor for me though at the time. That's the only time I've ever come close to injury through training. I've never ever seen a respected trainer lose it.

It definitely would have me very concerned.

[joharavhf]

This sounds like a combination of two things:

a. Trainer was having a bad day
b. Horse didn't understand what trainer was saying.

I don't care about a. Trainers/riders don't GET to take out their frustrations on their horses. It's not fair. If I am having SUCH a bad day that I feel I could lose control, then I simply don't get on.

B is a much bigger problem. I believe that a trainer MUST read the horse and break things down in to terms in which the horse understands. If that means kicking and whipping it to go forward, well fine - but once you get the reaction QUIT kicking and whipping. It sounds like this "trainer" doesn't understand how to break down commands and just go for ONE good thing and not having it all.

Finally, just a note about bosals / nosebands / hackamores. There are quite a few people who only ride in bitless bridles. Not sure how each works, but I happen to know a very kind lady who starts babies and problem horses in a rope halter...and then moves them to a Dr. Cooks bitless bridle. And that's ALL she rides in.

Good luck OP.

[daisyfields]

One is that the trainer actually WAS having problems controlling your horse, and that the horse was simply feeling fresh or naughty that day. Horses DO that. They decide they want to go back to the barn or follow another horse, and the rider says, 'no no precious' and the horse says, well, if I buck like mad, you may change your mind. Horses can be naughty just like children, and they can be rambunctious, inattentive, even have days when they simply do not want to do what the rider wants and not because they're in pain or mistreated - just because they are animals, not robots or machines - especially if not in a 'program' where they get ridden in a routine 4-5 days a week month in and out. Even the quietest, healthiest, most sensible horse has naughty, disobedient days.

The problem is, she wasn't being disobediant. There were problems with her going forward and dropping into corners or change of direction, but even at times when she had responded and gone forward she got whacked to go even more. The acting up started towards the end. Those kinds of reactions from my horse are frustration, I know her well enough to know how she acts and it was not fresh that day.

Too, perhaps the horse has gotten really spoiled and untrained. Perhaps she's been allowed to go where she pleases and not turn or be obedient when yiou ride her in the noseband, either due to your inexperience or the noseband or both, and now when the trainer gets on the horse, the horse simply won't be obedient. This happens so incredibly often it's worth mention and consideration.

Has she kind of gotten away with being forward? Yes. She also had issues of straightness and falling in, but that is no reason for her to have been ridden that way.




Additionally, I am VERY concerned that if this noseband rubs your horse so badly, that the reason you like riding her in it, the reason she's light for you, or enjoyable for you - is that this noseband HURTS her, and that's why she's responsive in it, because it hurts her if she doesn't give instantly, and that should not be happening.

Actually when I ride her in there is no rubbing. It's near impossible to get a rub from it with its plush cover, and that is how I knew how hard she was pulling not only back, but back and forth.


The other possibility is tha the trainer was being an ass, and getting harsh with the horse or making the horse act up so she could say, 'See? This noseband thing doesn't work'.

That is what I kind of felt like happened by the way she was talking afterwards saying " See, is this any better?" after I had taken off her noseband and made the horrifying discovery. The problem is I've known her for so long it's hard to believe that would happen, but it almost seemed like that as my horse did nothing to warrant such a rough ride.

I already spoke my piece on this noseband thing. I think it's something you want to use without any justification or medical evidence or any decent input from any other trainers (this one sounds like she may not be a good one to get advice from, if the second possibility is true).

HOLY ****! How many times do I have to say it was from a vet!?

Clearly - this is something you just want to do and you're convinced because when you bought the horse, the owner handed you an ugly looking bit to use on her that she has nerve damage and can't be ridden in a bit, despite having NO nerve tests, a dentist or anyone else look at the mouth, or even CONSIDERING that the one 'symptom' you see - the horse going quietly around with one side of its neck concave and not contacting the rein on that side, can very well be due to training, not nerve damage.

See above. Learn to ******* read because I'm starting to get really annoyed with posting the same thing over and over and over andover again.

And - there was no medical evidence of nerve damage in anything you ever wrote on this bb about this horse. No tests have been done, no dental work - nothing. The vet merely said this MIGHT be why the horse goes around with its neck concave on one side. More than anything, I can't understand why, you WANT this to be true.[/QUOTE]

I don't want it be true. I'd just rather be safe than sorry until it's further investigated.

[pj]

She rode her so roughly I couldn't even believe; almost nonstop whipping and kicking, screaming at her, jerking her face all over, even whipped her on the neck. When I took her bridle with the noseband off, it's covered in sheepskin mind you, her nose was rubbed sompletely raw to the point it was almost bleeding.

I can never forget that day with the whites of my horse's eyes showing and her eventually bucking, rearing, and bolting to try and escape. ?
Does this REALLY sound like a professional trainer (or rather a good one) to ANYBODY??
Sounds like the woman was having a full blown pms attack to me. That's not the mare's fault and I stand by what I said. She would never get on my horse again if it were me.

[daisyfields]

Have your spoken to her about your feelings about that day? What was her response? Why weren't you able to stop the bad ride?


I haven't spoken to her about it; I'm afraid it will lead to a very not nice conversation to say the least. I've always been the person who thought I would kick anyone's *** who touched my horse, but when people think about that it's never someone you care about, trust, and respect doing it. That combined with how very very submissive and gentle my personality is; I was just afraid and shocked. I thought things may have gotten worse if I spoke up.

[daisyfields]

-Why would she be upset about the horse having a noseband?
-What was happening that she needed to get on your horse? Is that something that normally happens?
-What was she so frustrated about?
-Has this sort of thing happened before--either with your horse or any others that you're aware of?
-Did trainer seem to be upset about something else? What does SHE say about the incident?


The noseband is harder to train in, less effective for corrections and you have less control, and you can't show in it. I actually didn't think she would really mind me using it.

She just wanted to see how she went in the noseband. Occasionally she will get on and school my horses, but I normally just have lessons on my horses.

This kind of thing hasn't happened before. I was conpletely shocked.

She didn't seem upset at all. She said nothing about it.

[BuddyRoo]

thanks for the clarification. Odd indeed.

[dainty do]

Daisyfields,
I really empathize with your situation. I too had a horse that was uncomfortable with the bit. He was primarily ridden and trained (by me) in a halter or in a hackamore with a padded noseband. I can tell you that trainers just do not like to see horses going around nicely without a bridle. I can’t tell you why, but I can tell you that my horse easily learned first and second level dressage movements, and jumping without the bit. Later, he went on and gradually became reacquainted with the bridle. He did well at shows and won top ribbons in the hunters and in First level dressage. He could go back and forth between the halter and the bridle easily, but did prefer to just go in the halter.

I think you are doing the right thing by training your horse in a bitless bridle. I suggest taking some time off from your trainer, and if possible, finding a new one. There is no excuse for doing what she did. I think you are probably better off on your own reading books, and watching good videos. Hopefully, your horse will tell you that she is more relaxed and happy without your trainer.

The primary goals of first level dressage training are to keep your horse relaxed, happy, and stretching. (Not confused and scared). Let your horse be your guide, she will tell you what to do.

[goeslikestink]

Does this REALLY sound like a professional trainer (or rather a good one) to ANYBODY??
Sounds like the woman was having a full blown pms attack to me. That's not the mare's fault and I stand by what I said. She would never get on my horse again if it were me.

tend to agree

daisyfields is this the horse thats a bit green that you posted in a video a while back

if so this horse needs kind hands and simpathic trianing as she young and green and at an impressionable age

ditch the trianer as its not doing you or your horse any good in they way she asking the horse to move forwards in a polite manner ok dokey so elimate that one
post on here and see if theres any decent trianers in your area as i bet there are as on coth theres a fair few
once you have posted your area others in the same area can then reccomend ones they use
also as your 19 look at the local 4-h clubs near you they all hold clinics and rallies to which you could take your horse to, and if you join get the help you so desperately need
also look at the local hunts in your area most have a younger riders part ie pony club attached to them again they would have instructors

forget the being dressage at mo, lets just get you some decent instructors to get you on the right road of riding your horses properly ok your 19 so should be able to get some help somewhere

here http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F
%2Fwww.ponyclub.org%2F&ei=t2cqSaD9OMTC-Qb5kaSTAg&usg=AFQjCNGHReeYeFViL8vJ-UlSSwFgM2kN9g&sig2=aeSXh_-rIXG77gOWJGDHHQ


come on guys this girly need help with her horses she hasnt a lot of dosh no blooming point in argueing what was its done godd or bad the deed done and dusted we just make sure she doesnt fall foul of it again she young and inexpreince so lets try and find someone to help her


this near you http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=3&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.prhf.com%2Fponyclub.shtml&ei=zmkqSaX7CMjP-Qbyj_ybAg&usg=AFQjCNGAwhVcfDmoEJsxGeArrj5UjjBhXQ&sig2=T4vC2BBvOAAsIg4yrlyhoQ

heres a pony club in ri -- http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=4&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwatershed.ponyclub.org%2Fwpc.htm&ei=zmkqSaX7CMjP-Qbyj_ybAg&usg=AFQjCNFz8eev7ji8zAYAXR4Jm9zz33bwtw&sig2=TW-UOmwhTD1q-BJh8UfjDw

here this yard associated to the pony club another good sort of education for you
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=11&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.redrockfarm.info%2Flinks.html&ei=mmoqSfX1B5zT-Qb2o5SfAg&usg=AFQjCNHcuJ5y22p9SGCZWd-WbhWT9BhG7Q&sig2=kf1dqA8L2f8-dgADfRL1Sg


daisyfields if you join the pc the rallies are often cheaper becuase your a member
and they can put you on the road of instruction ring them up ie all links and see what out there to help you

[JustJump]

So many unanswered questions.

What/whose "medical reasons" caused the decision to switch to bitless?

Who decided it?

Was the rationale behind the decision explained to you?

What kind of noseband was used?

How old is this horse? What is it's level of schooling?

What level rider are you, after 2-1/2 years with this "wonderful" trainer?

What level rider is the "wonderful" trainer?

Apparently, whatever was done, you didn't receive a reasonable explanation for it. This makes no sense.

After 2-1/2 years with the same trainer, you shouldn't be in the dark about what's going on, and you shouldn't be fearful of what might happen if you ask a question. Time to leave.

You aren't exactly in a backwater--there are plenty of alternatives in your area for training. What is holding you back from exploring them?

[Ambrey]

I can't see how the rationale for her decision to go bitless enters into this at all. It is her horse, it was her decision. If the trainer didn't think she could work with it, it was her responsibility to say "I can't work with this, let me help you find someone who can."

[daisyfields]

So many unanswered questions.

What/whose "medical reasons" caused the decision to switch to bitless?

Who decided it?

Was the rationale behind the decision explained to you?

What kind of noseband was used?

How old is this horse? What is it's level of schooling?

What level rider are you, after 2-1/2 years with this "wonderful" trainer?

What level rider is the "wonderful" trainer?

Apparently, whatever was done, you didn't receive a reasonable explanation for it. This makes no sense.

After 2-1/2 years with the same trainer, you shouldn't be in the dark about what's going on, and you shouldn't be fearful of what might happen if you ask a question. Time to leave.

You aren't exactly in a backwater--there are plenty of alternatives in your area for training. What is holding you back from exploring them?

Too much to explain, but is was the vet's decision because of possible nerve damage. However, I just talked to my vet again after having her looked at again and there were no more reactions at palpations of the area inside her mouth that was affected so she said she should be fine to ride with the bit again. It's a bit uknown as to what was actually causing the reaction so she'll just have that area checked regularly along with some type of exam to make sure whatever was bothering her is really gone. I'll still ride her with the noseband every few days to give the area a break and keep it from flaring up and bothering her again. The vet will be back in about a month so we'll see if things are still good.

I decided this based on the vet's explanation and my horse's reactions.

It's called a hackamore noseband. Just a noseband witha ring on each side for the reins. Mine is also wrapped in sheepskin.

My horse is just about 9. She'sbetween training and first level.

I am between first and second level.

I'm not exactly sure, but I know it is in the upper levels(PSG-GP).

I've looked around at suggestions and the only ones within reasonable driving distance either I completely can't get a hold of and haven't heard back from or I just didn't really like their style.

[Rebe]

Daisyfields, I have a few random suggestions for you.

The first is that the "ignore" button on your COTH User CP is your friend. For whatever reason, at least one individual on this board appears to almost be stalking you on this topic, and throwing a bunch of crap into the discussion that you don't need to be digging through.

(I find it interesting that this has included berating you for not having the right people set eyes on the horse to determine her problems, when the individual you need to block has set herself up as an expert on YOUR horse without herself ever seeing her in person herself. But I digress.)

Next, continue to work with your trusted vet to find the best way to ride this mare that works for both you and the horse. This will take some trial and error, but trust yourself to read your horse and her responses.

Next, ditch the trainer. I agree that this trainer appeared to have the same problems as many posters on this board, and simply will not believe that a bitless bridle may (1) be in the horse's best interest and (2) be "good enough," even if not exactly the same as a traditional bridle.

Finally, continue to put your horse first - even if it means you need to get better at standing up for yourself in order to stand up for her. And good for you for being open minded about tack and riding, for your horse's sake.

[AnotherRound]

Crikey, you're only about a half hour or 40 minutes away from Mystic Valley Hunt club.http://www.mysticvalleyhuntclub.com/lessons/lessons.htm

Wow, what a resource, and very reasonably priced. I feel you really have no excuse not to either move or lesson elsewhere.

[rabicon]

I'm very blunt, just tell her "hey I like you alot and you have helped us so much. I love you as my trainer and want it to stay that way, but you will never ride my horse like you did the other day. You can ride her and train her and thats fine but did you know that you had her nose raw under her band??? Thats not acceptable and I can't let you do that anymore".

[Trevelyan96]

It's time to move on. Period. If the trainer can't adjust from a bit to a noseband without mistreating the horse, there is nothing of value she can teach you.

[pj]

I haven't spoken to her about it; I'm afraid it will lead to a very not nice conversation to say the least. I've always been the person who thought I would kick anyone's *** who touched my horse, but when people think about that it's never someone you care about, trust, and respect doing it. That combined with how very very submissive and gentle my personality is; I was just afraid and shocked. I thought things may have gotten worse if I spoke up.
I'm guessing you are a teen? If so, honey, adults aren't ALWAYS right. YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS HORSE'S WELFARE. If you know someone is doing something not right, particularly when it is to a helpless being, YOU must speak up. Then not later. It's nice that you are so gentle but it's time to not be so submissive when necessary and you have others in your care. I know you must be disappointed in yourself but what's done is done. Just make sure it will never happen again.

[Trevelyan96]

If a person is beating on your horse, in fact, the person is also beating on you, showing you no respect through your horse.
That sounds like a person out of control.

Well said. Frankly, I've reached the point that if a trainer were to beat my horse, I'd probably give the trainer the same treatment they gave the horse.

[yankeeclipper]

If my horse was rubbed raw and almost bleeding, there would be no need for a conversation. Trainer wouldn't be allowed to touch my horse again. We are the voice for our animals. Time to find yours.