Politics will kill our chances of a medal in 2010 and 2012

[Eventer4life28]

After seeing the winter training list, I'm sure of it.

Mark Phillips and the other selectors have favorites, and even if there is a more talented combo, they will give the team spot to the riders they like.

I mean honestly, it is bad folks. Really bad.

What more do riders like Corrine Ashton and Jennifer Wooten have to do to make the "A" list or even "A" team for that matter.

This summer's Olympics were a prime example. KOC had no business being at the Olympics WITH Mandiba. Period. So, the selectors passed up several better combinations, just so she could be on the team. Well, how do I know this inside info?? Trust me, I have the inside scoop.

This is a really big issue, and will effect our chances of getting medals BIG TIME.

We will never be competitive with the other nations if this keeps up.

Thoughts?

[Thomas_1]

We will never be competitive with the other nations if this keeps up.

Thoughts? Good :winkgrin::D

[Jazzy Lady]

I'm at peace with the situation. :p

[snoopy]

Given the fact this is an "off year" with no major championships, the lists are too be expected. BUT, if this was a championships year with the exact same lists then I would not worry too much as CMP's training programme beaks enough horses down that there would obviously be the need to draw from the B list. Did anyone HONESTLY think the lists would be any different?
Surprised I am not. Sadly it will take another poor showing from the management in order to effect some sort of change. Aachen and HK were not a success...and they can say it was bad luck all they want...but another poor showing at a major championships is the only way to shake the bad apples from the tree. But I ain't holding my breath. Just hoping.

[deltawave]

I wish I cared. That's not my sport any more.

[Fence2Fence]

Same here. I just don't give a hoot anymore.

[Carol Ames]

Folks, this is NOTHING New:no::mad:! quite frankly, it is a NO WIN situation, to have left off someone with Karens' experience and record at the international level the International level would:eek: have been stupid, and you can be sure the:Boo birds " would have been out in full voice:mad:







ing the winter training list, I'm sure of it.

Mark Phillips and the other selectors have favorites,

[Carol Ames]

lips and the other selectors have favorites,


And NO ONE else does:confused:? Go check in with eventers/Olympic contenders in other countries, and see if this not also true there;:o moreover this forum obviously has its' favorites; that is part of human nature!

WELCOME TO REAL LIFE!

[Jealoushe]

One solution,

move to Canada where we appreciate the good riders and the money the americans put into the sport!!
lol

[Carol Ames]

I mean honestly, it is bad folks. Really bad.

What more do riders like Corrine Ashton and Jennifer Wooten have to do to make the "A" list or even "A" team for that matter.

They must prove the that they can cope the pressures of competing on a team the international :eek:level, and their horses are absolutely 100% sound ,and are likely to remain so.:o

[Carol Ames]

Go back and read what Jmmy wofford said anyone who wanted to be considered for a team spot should do; the way you people are talking/ squawking we should go back to the worst of the le Goff years, when purely objective criteria were to be used; Ask anyone yone around then, the down side of such a plan;

[glfprncs]

I guess since politics has also helped ruin our country's economy, morality, and a variety of other things, why not allow it to also ruin our chances at a medal in international competition.

Sorry for the cynicism...I was just listening to some political bigwig in D.C. announce on a rebroadcast that we just need to be patient while they blow all of our tax dollars on b.s. programs that are destined to fail...AGAIN.

[snoopy]

and their horses are absolutely 100% sound ,and are likely to remain so.:o



carol you do make me laugh!!!! I can tell you many a horse that was very questionable where soundness comes in, that were on the A list. Christ, how many (from the short list) do we lose before a championships because they have gone lame?!!

[retreadeventer]

I'm going to jump to Carol's defense, here; an experienced rider is such an asset to a team that you take one riding a donkey if that is all they have.

Would you prefer the dark days of the brutal dictatorship who took good horses from riders and gave them to other riders? Not all those years were winning ones. We had a lot of extraordinary luck with some really scopy and tough horses and hungry young riders who had nothing to lose.

The best horses and riders shake out of the selection process, and usually, they don't miss the top pairs. Young horses with experienced riders are much more likely to be picked than up and coming horses with new to international level riders.

Pretend you're the coach: No coach wants to go into a world class team competition with a green set of kids and deer in the headlights horses. Not saying it hasn't been done. But you know, the powers that be don't want to have to scrape these types up off the course any more. (See the hundreds of Safety threads.)

Once again, (and if you look back you will see this is pretty much the criteria) you must select a SOLID XC horse - with NO stops. A reliable show jumper who is allergic to wood. And a delightful dressage horse the judges will like and is correctly trained, who is likely to behave on the world stage type arena and can take the pressure. Lastly I think the package must have inherent soundness, be able to take conditioning at the advanced level physically, and have a savvy rider.

If you take a good look at those left off the list, more than likely, they do not fit above criteria as well as top pairs. Any American pair with a balanced set of those credentials I am sure the coach would be DELIGHTED to add to his list. If you know of one, call him up and let him know.

[Carol Ames]

that, since eventing became a "major equestrian sport post 1974, betting on who makes the team has been a"no brainer":mad:, now\with new names, nothing more:no:.

[Carol Ames]

snoopy, how many horses have not gotten the maintenance they needed :sadsmile: because it might make them look less desirable:(:no: for the team?

[vineyridge]

Will someone please explain to me why Poggio was a good choice for the Olympics based on his results from 2007 and 2008?

If we are looking for experience and quality in our riders, then why is Kim Severson relegated to the B list and not even a traveling alternate for the Olympics? Her horse did better at Rolex last year than 3 riders who made the Team and better than most of the horses on the Training Squad.

Amy Tryon could ride a giraffe or camel and make the A Squad. KOC is connected too, even when she doesn't have a suitable horse. PD is going to make the Team because he always does have horses. But the rest of the eventing universe stands in line, regardless of competition results.

[Carol Ames]

an interview fromJerez wih Phillip dutton, who, had been left off the ozzies' team; and was leading after dressage;

Q: Phillip, you are listed as an individual, not as a member of the Australian team. Why is that?
A: Dutton: (dead-pan) You’ll have to ask the selectors.
Q: When did you find out that you had come all this way to be an individual at the WEG, after winning 2 Olympic gold team medals, in 96 and 2000?
A: (dead pan) Last night.
Q: Did they give you any reason why you were left off the team?
A: (dead pan) They said my dressage wasn’t good enough.

The background to this is that this time the Australian Gold-Medal machine might have let its hubris outstrip its horsemanship. They

[LexInVA]

Well she's handled the horse for nearly a decade so I guess it's just a matter of comfort. Poggio has a decent long-term record with previous Olympic experience so perhaps that is why he was put before the selection committee despite his perceived shortcomings in recent competitions. The people at the top do prefer to go with "experience" or at least it seems that way. As for the rest, I think it boils down to who are the donor favorites and who has the donor money invested in them. I think the rest is favoritism mixed with who the donors trust with their sponsorship money and who is riding investment horses owned by certain people. Remember that riding at the highest levels is not something these riders can simply do without someone else's money.

[snoopy]

Would you prefer the dark days of the brutal dictatorship who took good horses from riders and gave them to other riders? Not all those years were winning ones. We had a lot of extraordinary luck with some really scopy and tough horses and hungry young riders who had nothing to lose.





Would you care to take a stab at the medal count under Jack? I can recite them from 72-84. Brutal dictatorship maybe, but the horses and riders were developed/nurtured. I do not remember so many horses going lame under his programme.
The interesting thing to note back then is that there were far fewer horses and riders to choose from but what we had were obviously world class judging by the results from that era.
Jack, Neil, and Eileen USED the best combinations...the four year cycle was well planned out so that we had great combinations fit, ready, strong for the championships of that year.
Was Jack always fair???...hell no but he did choose the best combinations for the job.
Under this dictatorship that has not alway been the case.
Listen, there is very little difference between Mark and Jack...Mark just has more to choose from, but so often those better combinations that are ready are often left behind in favour of a combination of factors.
I personally believe that we have gotten "lucky" more under Mark then Jack

[fatorangehorse]

He was an alternate and has only good rounds on that Bally horse in the UK. Why do you think he got bumped to the B list?

[Eventer4life28]

As for the rest, I think it boils down to who are the donor favorites and who has the donor money invested in them. I think the rest is favoritism mixed with who the donors trust with their sponsorship money and who is riding investment horses owned by certain people. Remember that riding at the highest levels is not something these riders can simply do without someone else's money.

Exactly! I HATE the system! :mad:

[Carol Ames]

ill someone please explain to me why Poggio was a good choice for the Olympics based on his results from 2007 and 2008?
poggio and Amyhave been to two worlds' and come home with :yes:medals:yes:!! If you need a horse / rider to finish for the team they they have the track record
, even after an injury to Amy:eek:; and won the team gold medal for us in :yes:jerez.

[Carol Ames]

sten, there is very little difference between Mark and Jack...Mark just has more to choose from, but so often those better combinations that are ready are often left behind in favour of a combination of factors.
I personally believe that we have gotten "lucky" more under Mark then Jack http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3674229) Would you 9 care to explain why Kim and /grey goose were repeatedly left off teams; anda horse who, had never done an advanced horse trials was sent to the the WM?

[Carol Ames]

in the run up to t ohthe'84games, it was said that there there two (2)

0 undecided spots on the team; the other two going to two veterans with proven track records; the '84te\election trials were brutal:eek: Each course worse than the last; Tempers were reso short that, peter Green actually slugged :eek:Jack, in front of cameras!I was fortunate to be privy to conversations of advanced riders during that year;was NOT petty:no:

[snoopy]

sten, there is very little difference between Mark and Jack...Mark just has more to choose from, but so often those better combinations that are ready are often left behind in favour of a combination of factors.
I personally believe that we have gotten "lucky" more under Mark then Jack http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3674229) Would you 9 care to explain why Kim and /grey goose were repeatedly left off teams; anda horse who, had never done an advanced horse trials was sent to the the WM?


I know Kim very well and she was not repeatedly left off teams...she was an alternate for the 84 Olympics yes and that was in my mind "wierd casting" for sure, I remember talking to her about this but cannot remember her thoughts but will ask her again about it. Jack W is on this forum so he could shed some light on it. She was however on the 82 world games team winning a bronze both team and IND and was sent to gawler in 86 but the programme had broken down by that point and the results were not good there.
If you are refering to Bruce taking Ducky (Might Tango) to lexington in 78 well that was not the plan, Cappy was supposed to go but went lame right before the championships. Again "wierd casting" as there were so many IND horses allocated to the US for those championships that had more advanced experience. Yes it would seem that Jack went for the experience of the rider with an untried horse then that of an experienced horse and an untried rider. I am sure Denny could shed his thoughts on that one.
84 was definately a drama selection that is for sure, but by that point there were far more horses available to choose from then the established four of the mid/late 70's....and with "open spots" for the team, so of course there was drama.
BigRuss would know more about the issue surrounding Bruce going to those games (84)...that I believe got ugly.
And yes, Mr Chairman of Selctors did indeed lay Jack out when told that he would not be considered for the team...basically do not bother trying:eek:!!
BUT 84 worked out rather well though did it not. Except for that one rail, Ben Auther would have won the IND gold...and of course the Team had won Gold.
I am not saying that Jack was without fault...no way no how. I guess for me it was a simpler time back then, the sport was wired differently then it is today.

[Dawnd]

One solution,

move to Canada where we appreciate the good riders and the money the americans put into the sport!!
lol

Umm...Canada was too placings below the US.

You might appreciate good riders but again your choice of a Chef d'equip with a spouse on an opposing team was suspect.

[Dawnd]

I'm a sports fan, married to a man who watches anything with a timer or referee. I follow most national sports, some international sports and even some local sports.

On the professional level while there is a large amount of politics in play all of the time, if a coach or a player is unable to perform, eventually the powers that be demand his/her ouster. These PTB are the fans, ticket buyers, television watchers, team owners, etc.

The biggest problem that eventing faces is that the PTB in eventing are the ones that cause the problems in the first place. The fan base has no power to demand that their team win or they stop watching/buying tickets. I mean who really cares if 30% fewer people show up at Rolex. The PTB answer to no one except each other. This circle of incest keeps riders on teams who should have their ass handed to them and sent down to the minor leagues.

I'm sorry, but the goal of an international Olympic team should be to win, not come in fourth from the bottom. Keeping the same coach and attitudes will guarantee the same lackluster performance from the team - perhaps an individual might shine (read Gina) but the team will place poorly.

Remember "the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat"? Well what we have here is the embarrassment of mediocrity.

[flyingchange]

And yes, Mr Chairman of Selctors did indeed lay Jack out when told that he would not be considered for the team...basically do not bother trying:eek:!!

That guy is all class.:rolleyes: Not the first time I've heard of him getting physical when he gets mad - like a little child.

[boppin along]

Same here. I just don't give a hoot anymore.

same here.... eventing has lost its appeal to me.
I got fed up with all the politics, starting at the local area level and on up to the top.

[magnolia73]

I think it's a crap shoot any year, with any team. How many topics have bemoaned the uphill slog our showjumpers have. talent ruined by 2'6 hunters, Germans hoarding good horses, too many horse shows, not enough international experience. Then they go win the Gold medal while the German juggernaut implodes.

To think that you can assemble a team in any of the big countries (US, German, England etc.) and assume you won't win.... or will win is silly. It's a competitive sport with a lot of moving parts and nothing is a sure bet.

[Jealoushe]

Umm...Canada was too placings below the US.

You might appreciate good riders but again your choice of a Chef d'equip with a spouse on an opposing team was suspect.

Hey for us, thats pretty dern good! We even got to pick our team this year, where normally...we don't even have enough to qualify!

nobodys perfect :)

[snoopy]

Hey for us, thats pretty dern good! We even got to pick our team this year, where normally...we don't even have enough to qualify!

nobodys perfect :)


Sadly that is not "entirely" true...when it came to naming sam and livewire there was not much left. Great combination, a bit too soon, for both. But Rome was not built in a day and canada seems to be on the right track. Exciting times for our northern neighbours though as more are coming into the pipeline for the future.

[RunForIt]

I'm a sports fan, married to a man who watches anything with a timer or referee. I follow most national sports, some international sports and even some local sports.

On the professional level while there is a large amount of politics in play all of the time, if a coach or a player is unable to perform, eventually the powers that be demand his/her ouster. These PTB are the fans, ticket buyers, television watchers, team owners, etc.

The biggest problem that eventing faces is that the PTB in eventing are the ones that cause the problems in the first place. The fan base has no power to demand that their team win or they stop watching/buying tickets. I mean who really cares if 30% fewer people show up at Rolex. The PTB answer to no one except each other. This circle of incest keeps riders on teams who should have their ass handed to them and sent down to the minor leagues.

I'm sorry, but the goal of an international Olympic team should be to win, not come in fourth from the bottom. Keeping the same coach and attitudes will guarantee the same lackluster performance from the team - perhaps an individual might shine (read Gina) but the team will place poorly.

Remember "the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat"? Well what we have here is the embarrassment of mediocrity.

"The Team" like all professional sports is a busiiness. Does not run like collegiate or other amateur sports, so trying to think through decisions made by team "officials" will make no sense if you are thinking pure "sport" - think profit, think politics, just think.
JMHO . :cool:

[Carol Ames]

It may have been simpler but,there was then, still, as now, lots of second guessing :mad: going on; i was referring to "Flying Colors:o " at Gawler

I guess for me it was a simpler time back then, the sport was wired differently then it is today.

[Carol Ames]

Actually , it was because Jack wanted to lower the he t water in the water jump, the last fence, there had been torrential rains all day; in addition t the fact that Jack had given given "byes" to certain stars " who, had s been highlighted leading up to the horse trials; they even had prize money!:cool:; in short , PG, who builds beautiful courses only, this time it finished with a brutal combination uphill, then down into the water; It was very hilly, and wet;unfortunately, and PGs' pasture which had been used for parking , got all torn up by people tryingn to get their rigs out it was ; too bad; , but, remember about"the best laid plans of mice and men ..." I just tremebr being very very tired cold, andwet,and facing a 14 hour drive back to kentucky :eek:







And yes, Mr Chairman of Selctors did indeed lay Jack out when told that he would not be considered for the team...basically do not bother trying:eek:!!

[Carol Ames]

We had prepared well:yes:; with , Karen and Darren finishing 1-2 at the Pan Ams, and Gina getting valuable international experience:yes:; unfortunately :sadsmile:, the first two were not available with those horses; due , to "life happening":(nothing that CMP did or did not :no:do; had all three been at HK, we might very well have won a team gold:yes: as well as all three INDs :cool:!

[snoopy]

We had prepared well:yes:; with , Karen and Darren finishing 1-2 at the Pan Ams, and Gina getting valuable international experience:yes:; unfortunately :sadsmile:, the first two were not available with those horses; due , to "life happening":(nothing that CMP did or did not :no:do; had all three been at HK, we might very well have won a team gold:yes: as well as all three INDs :cool:!


Sending proven combinations to the Pan Ams is not preparing....America's Olympic place was secure. The B team should have been sent to gain experience in a team/offical capasity so that when the A team falls to pieces we then have suitable back up horses/riders. But we get the excuse that only experienced combinations get a ticket to the OG's. We could have had far more "experienced" combinations should we have taken advantage of the Pan Am's as a way of building depth instead of medal grabbing.
You say "we might very well have won a team gold as well as three INDs"
This is simply putting all your eggs in one basket....and look what happened!
Karen making a statement along the lines of..."this was a great learning experience for my horse, wait until 2010" .... We do NOT send horses to the Olympics "to learn".

[cyberbay]

I agree with you, Eventer4life. There is a tremendous amount of politics when it comes to team selection. I mean, over in dressage, why would Guenter Siedel repeatedly make the important teams even when his horse(s) competition records can't support the choice? Whenever the owners are major donors to the Team, ta-ding!!

Mark Phillips and the O'connors are very, very tight. Jim Wolf used to barn manage for the O'Connors. I agree with you that KOC was a political choice. She's a very good rider, very experienced, but she didn't have the right horse at the time. She'll keep making teams as along as MP and JW are in place and she wants to keep competing.

It is weird that the prez of our federation coaches the Canadian team. It is weird, too, that the prez of our federation is an eventer, yet there has been no substantive changes concerning safety in the sport of eventing. What could just possibly be going on here?

[snoopy]

The same thing going on with senior management of corperations that are floundering but still expect to keep their jobs and pay scale all the while being baled out of their poor performance and business practices.

edited to add...Guenter's sponsors pump huge amounts of money into the system as well as Karen's.

[sofiethewonderhorse]

I'm going to throw out a different perspective (Snoop, I read the entire thread this time! :cool:)

There is a persistent, erroneous concept, that ULR's succeed because they have other peoples money behind them: owners, sponsors, etc, etc. while I quoted a reference to the Browns (G. Siedel's 'owners') the concept has been raised again and again and again.

It also seems that there is a perception this is only true for the equestrian sports.

Favoritism of riders? absolutely, because of 'ta-ding'? not so sure.

Further we experience this in other sports that we financially support (the 'ta-dings').

We are very involved in the sport of the 'Moto Cross Enduro' we have sponsored teams, we have children who have represented the US in International Competition and have earned Gold, Silver & Bronze Medals. As Team Sponsors, we have experienced 'Imperial Nepotism', a phrase I coined to relate to our youngest's experience on the soccer field.

We have sponsored the club, Chaired the Auction, co-sponsored the Golf Tournament. Our son continues to be 'looked over' for the 'Gold Team'. Our son is passionate about the sport, he receives private Coaching from a Professional Soccer Player, he still is over looked, he is the victom of "Imperialistic Nepotism'

Now before everyone starts to ask the question 'what is wrong with you, why aren't you demanding your son have that spot'? etc etc,

I'll tell you why: any Owner, parent, sponsor, ad nauseum can pave the way AND PAY the way, however at the end of the day the Coach must have the freedom to do what he/her is the best for the Team. And FURTHER, there is no guarantee that a Coach has the first priority of 'Development'.

Our son will learn much more by having to overcome adversity, unfairness, unkindness and Imperial Nepotism.

Yes, my little diatribe does apply to the 3-day Event.

I was once told by the Canadian Coach when I was expressing frustration over the hierarchy of the 3 Day Event politics "Just Out Last Them' ;)

I mean, over in dressage, why would Guenter Siedel repeatedly make the important teams even when his horse(s) competition records can't support the choice? Whenever the owners are major donors to the Team, ta-ding!!

[cyberbay]

ta-ding... meaning: "you got the answer right" like, the smashing of the cymbals when the dog jumps through the hoop at the circus, or the screaming when Vanna pulls down the winning letter. (That's how I meant it< i think).