Ace for handwalking

[Fharoah]

When you use the injectable ace orally squirted into the mouth how long does the ace take to kick in? I am walking my stall rest horse recovering from a collateral ligament injury and he gets really spooky and explosive during hand walking.

Thankyou!

[Simkie]

Half an hour to an hour.

But if he is explosive, I doubt oral ace will work. IM might not even work.

I've found ace administered orally takes the edge off a normal horse. I've never had luck having an effect on a wound up horse.

[Fharoah]

Thanks Simkie,

My horse in calm in but gets explosive when I take him out, he will be calm one moment then spooking ontop of me the next and kicking out his hind end. It is kindof scarry.

What do you seggest? I have had no luck with reserpine, l tryptophan, valarian root, calcium magnesium those has no apparent effect on him he dousn't get grain. Ace granules have very little effect on him but I am going to try the liquid tomorrow.

Any ideas on what may be more effective?

[ljc]

I've used ace orally many, many, many times while rehabbing horses, including right now. I generally give it 45 minutes before I take the horse out. The only times it hasn't worked are when something outrageous happens to "push" the horse past the ace but I think that's only happened a couple of times. Maybe you're not giving enough? I've found that somewhere between 2 and 2 1/2 cc squirted into the mouth is best to start with and then you can maybe reduce the dose. For example, my current rehab horse is down to just over 1 cc, after starting at nearly 3 (he's a big ol' honking horse who leaps and bucks all over the place). I actually had to give him fluphenazine two months into his handwalking rehab to keep at least three feet on the ground at all time.

I also used SmarPak's Ultra calm. Don't know if it made a difference but I'm stall alive after 14 months of rehabbing this horse! And I had my moments of doubt...

Good luck. You might also try using a stud chain and lunge line while walking.

[Pippin]

I am a member of the rehab club and used Ace to start the hand walking process,,, .. after a total of 7 months stall rest on a 3 year old ,, i needed help..
I started out low 2 cc's orally , but found i needed 4-5 cc's the first week,..... After the filly got used to the new routien , she needed less and less ace to be walked... I waited between 45 -50 mins to take effect..

Also .. i walked right after a good breakfast, and the quiet time with all the horses.. timing is everything in rehab...

good luck..

stay safe..

P~

[AKB]

Some horses can't tolerate stall rest. If you have access to a small paddock or a stall with a small attached paddock, you should talk with the vet and see if he/she thinks the injury is compatible with paddock rest. I know far too many people who have been injured while hand walking horses on stall rest.

[Jazzy Lady]

When my horse was coming back after his injury ACE was not enough. I had to hand walk him up and down the barn aisle... it was that bad. He was even worse to get on. You may need to up your doses.

[Fharoah]

Thanks everyone!

My gelding does hang outside in a stall sized paddic as I found any bigger he would run in and out and was not getting any sounder. Even with 20 foot paddoc he had managed to run just made really sharp turns which was not good for his pastern injury so now he gets 12x14 outside, sometimes I don't know if I am doing the right thing. I am hoping the increase in walking will make him and I happier am hoping to be tack walking by January where I have better control tranqulizer required!

Any further seggestions very appreciated!

[BornToRide]

Did you adjust his diet too and took any energy rich feed away?

[Fharoah]

His diet was cut down to base powdered supplement in a handful of beet pulp only with alittle ground flax and boss. I am debating adding a joint supplement am considering conequin ASU or Recovery EQ HA, he already gets legend and adequan. Any thoughts?

[Pookah]

Hate to be discouraging, but I've never had much luck with orally given Ace for this type of situation. I rehabbed a nightmare lunatic gelding (my favorite horse in the barn, of course) in college, we were at one point giving him several ccs of Ace IM 30-45 minutes prior to handwalking, on vet advice, which helped, but honestly, he was still a terror the whole time and we were constantly worried he would reinjure his leg. Not sure what your situation is, but one thing that might help is to time the handwalking for a quieter time of the day in the barn, and to have someone else walking a deadhead with you. I know that's not always practical, but sometimes I see people thinking their horse is crazy to be handwalked, when it's more that they're walking at twilight, when everyone else is in the barn eating, which would make anyone a little crazy, I think :-). Good luck!

[Tuckertoo]

Hm.....well, last year when I was rehabbing my gelding for a suspensory injury, we tried Ace orally first, but it did not work. First of all, it naturally takes longer to kick in, second, I'm sure he somehow got some of it spit out. If you know how to do IM, I would just do that and wait 20 minutes to half an hour. That way you know that the horse is getting all of it. We gave my guy 2 CCs and worked our way down from there as he got calmer. Also, is walking under saddle allowed with his injury? I had to handwalk mine, but it just was not working and not worth the risk of me getting hurt or him getting away from me and running all around and reinjuring himself. I got the okay from the vet to just walk undersaddle. I was able to sit out his antics and stop him a lot faster than on the ground, when he ripped out of my hands several times. I think that it is safer to be on them, you have more control.:yes:

[Peggy]

I squirt it under the tongue (better absorption???) and allow 30 minutes.

I have been lucky and haven't had to resort to it for hand-walking. I've gotten thru that by picking a quiet time and place and using earplugs (actually soft cat ball toys) since Star reacts to sound. It was also pretty dang hot for much of the time I was doing it which doubtless also helped. I also used a chain every time. On maybe three occasions said chain was put thru his mouth when he performed airs above the ground. But I also realize that all horses are different so nothing against someone who needs the ace for hand-walking.

I have used the ace, first IV and then working my way to oral and gradually decreasing the dose to nothing, for tack walking. I've been thru this 2x now. Now I'm kind of scared of the ace b/c he's gotten sick twice after getting it (once with neurological symptoms in June and then just over a week ago with an impaction that resulting in a week-long visit to the horsepital. Probably just an artifact, and lots of people do it with no issues, but still. So, when I tack walked yesterday for the first time in ten days, we tried it drug free (quiet time of day, ear plugs, jumper bonnet that seems to lend serenity...) and it was OK. Same today. A bit more alert both days than w/o the ace, but not in an alarming way. I'm sure it would be rodeo time if something really exciting happened, but that would probably be the case with the ace. Maybe he's gotten used to this walking business over the last 6+ months?

[Fharoah]

Well I tried handwalking with 2cc of ace under the tongue. Waited 45 minutes he was wired and spooked at everything we wound up walking not far from the barn asle way. My gelding also tries to grab the lead rope in his teath and run, he is so quick at it. I have been leading him in a bridle as I have had better secess that way than with a chain. This horse is like the love of my life. Do you think more ace?

Thanks again!

[Simkie]

Well I tried handwalking with 2cc of ace under the tongue. Waited 45 minutes he was wired and spooked at everything we wound up walking not far from the barn asle way. My gelding also tries to grab the lead rope in his teath and run, he is so quick at it. I have been leading him in a bridle as I have had better secess that way than with a chain. This horse is like the love of my life. Do you think more ace?

Thanks again!

How big is he?

When I'm using oral ace, I start with 2 cc on a 1200 lbs ish quiet horse that just needs a bit of an edge off. On a normal sized horse that's up and wild, and if I still wanted to use oral ace, I might start with 4 ccs.

Can you give it to him IM or IV instead? It is going to be more predictable if you used a different route of administration.

[Fharoah]

My gelding is 16.1h.h. 1200 pounds Odenberg. I can give IM but would not be comfortable giving it all the time.

[SSFLandon]

you could try Rompum (sp) AKA xylazine. I've used that with ace for a OTTB when rehabbing. It was not a miracle but, did help. I gave it IM.

[Simkie]

My gelding is 16.1h.h. 1200 pounds Odenberg. I can give IM but would not be comfortable giving it all the time.

When I had a horse with a shoulder fracture, he was given 2 cc ace IM twice a day for MONTHS. He actually would stand perfectly still and hold out his neck for it--he was also a cribber, so I think he liked the high.

While sticking them daily for weeks is not ideal, sometimes it's just what works. If upping the oral dose significantly does not work, I would get teeny needles and go IM.

[MandalayTraining]

Ive found that ace tablets only work when given in a large amount, like 4 or 5 pills and then you have to wait about an hour and make sure that there is nothing going on that can spook him or upset him while the ace is still kicking in or his blood pressure increases and the medication becomes useless. I work at a barn that deals with young racehorses and when we get one that doesnt like standing to be shod or gets unruly on the ground, we give something called Sedivet, its like ace but its a little bit stronger. Im not sure if you give it IM or IV but it definitely works for the hot to handle ones.

[Blinkers On]

the longer you wait the better it seems to work. For example waiting 60 minutes instead of 30. Some horses will react stronger to it. Or it will hit them harder. It's not always the small ones. IME the smaller spunkier ones(tbs) can take a fairly decent amount of ace. And some of the bigger can only take 1/2 the amount.
If they are already wound up when you give the ace. The less effective it seems to work.
Give it orally on an "empty" stomach.
There are different mg ace pills as well. Take that into account. Generally 25mg pills are used and can be given 4 or so but they will get very sleepy though nothing like rompun would do.
Please don't give rompun for walking or riding.
Had a filly with a very nasty fracture that we had to keep tranq'd before taking to the clinic for surgery. If she hadn't needed the pool to wake up in the surgery could have been done on the grounds. BUT instead she was in the barn for what feels like countless days, though it was just over night. and she was fed a very steady amount of ace pills. To keep her very quiet and standing.
Ace works if you use it well. And there is always a fun thing like a lip chain covered in vetwrap. It's a little kinder than just the chain, but helps the horse maintain decorum. If you can't hand walk a horse quietly be careful when the time comes to get on it and stat tack walking.

[Fharoah]

I will try upping the oral ace and if that does not work I will try IM and see how he reacts. I have never found my gelding to be overly reactive to ace. I have a full bottle of reserpine but that seems to make him more hyper or not sedate to say the least:(

I am not sure if my vet will give me rompun
I really appreciate everybodies seggestions

[ljc]

For one of my thoroughbreds, I had to give him 4 cc orally. It took the edge off, barely. He was another one I had to give fluphenazine to.

I agree with the poster who recommended finding a quiet time to walk. That's hard to do at a busy barn, I know, but it can make a huge difference. Barnmates get tired (rightly so, sometimes) of always having to tiptoe around someone handwalking a wacko horse! For my current project, I found walking him at lunchtime was best because we could follow the path of the lunch cart and pick up hay that had fallen on the ground.

[Wigwag]

Putting my stall bound rehabber (deep digital flexor tendon) in a paddock each day was the best decision I could have ever made.

In retrospect, I should NEVER have kept him on stall rest past the first week or two. And honestly, I wonder even about that.

He did more damage to himself blowing up when he was brought out of his stall than he would have done if I had simply wrapped well and jingled for a recovery in a paddock.

I would urge you to talk to your vet. There are many out there who will support paddock rest for horses that blow during the recovery. Mine is supportive of it.

JMHO

[Fharoah]

Putting my stall bound rehabber (deep digital flexor tendon) in a paddock each day was the best decision I could have ever made.

In retrospect, I should NEVER have kept him on stall rest past the first week or two. And honestly, I wonder even about that.

He did more damage to himself blowing up when he was brought out of his stall than he would have done if I had simply wrapped well and jingled for a recovery in a paddock.

I would urge you to talk to your vet. There are many out there who will support paddock rest for horses that blow during the recovery. Mine is supportive of it.

JMHO


My vets support small paddoc rest but did say to make it smaller if he was running. My horse is not in a stall, he is in a stall sized paddoc that is only 14x14. He started with a 30x30 paddoc ran around like a nut. The smaller paddoc only made his turns sharper, he would not stop running it was like two strides spin around two strides back at canter, he was injuring himself worse, I could not stop him with tranq I used tons and tried everything. He was getting lamer even in a 20x20 paddoc. With the 14x14 outside and some traq he has been calm and was nearly sound last checked by specialist a month ago. I was actually approved for tack walking by the vet but my parents don't approve and they own this horse, I am an ametuer but they paid for the horse and specialist is fine with either so I am stuggleing through hand walking. I am hoping with the right combination I can safely hand walk him for the next two month, with any luck he will then be sound and I can start tack walking with ace.

[Wigwag]

Yikes, he sounds like he has a lot of pent up energy. Mine was happy as a clam from the second he went out into his paddock. He could run around, but doesn't. I wish you the best of luck with your guy, I can relate to the handwalking nerves. Mine was a pistol until I put him out in the paddock.

[rmh]

I have been thinking about using ace on my mini donk. I am having a time trimming her hind feet. Any thoughts on this?

[Simkie]

I have been thinking about using ace on my mini donk. I am having a time trimming her hind feet. Any thoughts on this?

I've found a combo of xylazine and ace very useful for shoeing. I would speak with your vet, though, about dosing.

[Blinkers On]

Xylazine doesn't exactly help them stand without leaning or stumbling forward. It's a bad idea. They do have the munchies after the stumbling forward and sweating ends.

[Simkie]

Xylazine doesn't exactly help them stand without leaning or stumbling forward. It's a bad idea. They do have the munchies after the stumbling forward and sweating ends.

I have never had a single problem with leaning or stumbling when using xylazine and ace for shoeing.

I did read here quite some time ago that some farriers refused to work on horses that had been given xylazine, so I asked my farrier if he'd like me to use something else. He said nope, what we were doing was just fine, and thanks for being willing to drug this horse to get her feet taken care of.

I was using 1 cc xylazine + 2 cc ace IV, which is what my vet advised for a 1200 lbs horse.

[rmh]

Thanks, I am going to talk to the vet.

[Blinkers On]

I have never had a single problem with leaning or stumbling when using xylazine and ace for shoeing.

I did read here quite some time ago that some farriers refused to work on horses that had been given xylazine, so I asked my farrier if he'd like me to use something else. He said nope, what we were doing was just fine, and thanks for being willing to drug this horse to get her feet taken care of.

I was using 1 cc xylazine + 2 cc ace IV, which is what my vet advised for a 1200 lbs horse.

Stumbling is a very common side effect of xylazine. There are much better tranq's available. I don't know a farrier that would want to work on a horse on xylazine. It's really not the best idea. Personally I would never use it for shoeing.

[Fharoah]

Thanks for all your help!

It has been a struggle to heal this gelding whom I absolutely adore!!! He is the kindest gentle loving, puppy dog horse I could dream of owning. Forward but quiet hunter, not spooky but now he is bored and spooking at everything during hand walking. I don't blame him at all, he is just full of personality, I just wish I could trade places and heal this injury for him.

[Blinkers On]

I feel the same on a smaller but somehow equal level of pain and wishing. I think we often wonder if we could have prevented something and if we get to the point of "doing" something is the pain justified and is how we manage it good enough. Are we doing what or all that we can to be sucessful an if we aren't sucessful what then? It can be a winning or really crappy place to be.

[event101]

OP, good luck rehabbing your horse. I'll share a couple things that worked for me during my horse's lenghtly rehab. He was normally a mellow horse, but like your horse, being stall bound made him a little, um, explosive. I relied on ace a lot in the beginning, especially on colder days. I gave it orally most of the time because I hated sticking him with a needle all the time. I sprinkled a little sugar on top of the syringe and he never minded swallowing it. I gave IM on days that were windy/brisk. I waited an hour after giving ace oral, and 1/2 hr after IM. I tried to ride during the hottest part of the day and put a cooler over my saddle on really cold days (I don't know, it seemed to help!). My horse was much better undersaddle than for handwalking. I dunno, I think because I hand grazed him so much he just wanted to eat, not walk, lol! On days I did have to hand walk, I'd try to walk for a little, and then graze a little, which helped.

In the winter I tried to putz with him a lot. Groom him, spend time with him, let him walk down the aisle and "visit" other horses. I also tried to ride in indoor alone or with maybe one other quiet horse. Trying to ride with lots of people in the ring usually resulted in a bronco show!

When he was almost ready for small paddock turn out, I would hand graze him in the paddock to get used to it. The day I finally unhooked him, I don't think he even noticed!

It can be stressful, but hang in there!

[lauriep]

You are probably not giving enough and not waiting long enough. Remember that IV works the quickest and takes the least (works within minutes and usually 1/2-2 cc will be plenty), IM is next (use more and wait at least 20-30 minutes) and finally, orally, where you would give 3-5 cc and wait 45 minutes to an hour.

[Peggy]

lauriep (or anyone) - At about what oral dosage are you basically having no effect? People were trying to convince me that 0.25 cc was still "taking the edge off."

[lauriep]

Orally? No way! .25 cc wouldn't do anything noticeable even given IV, in my opinion. Maybe on a foal or very small pony, but not on a mature horse. Orally, as I said above, I'd start at 3cc.

[TheOrangeOne]

Different horses require different amounts, some are more resistant than others. Mine is barely subdued on the amount of rompun reqired to knock out an elephant, whereas some get half a cc and are falling all over themselves.

[Fharoah]

Could rompan be used for daily handwalking? Can it be used orally?

[Simkie]

lauriep (or anyone) - At about what oral dosage are you basically having no effect? People were trying to convince me that 0.25 cc was still "taking the edge off."

Snort! I don't think .25 cc would take the edge off of ME, much less my horse ;)

I've never even heard of such a low dose. The lowest oral dose I'd consider is 2 cc and then it's a VERY mild effect.

[ljc]

lauriep (or anyone) - At about what oral dosage are you basically having no effect? People were trying to convince me that 0.25 cc was still "taking the edge off."

I can't believe anything under 1 cc would affect any horse. My total lightweight needs 1.25 cc to take a little bit of edge off him (at least enough to make him rideable most of the time). I would generally start at 3 cc to see, then go down from there but for all the other rehabs I've done, somewhere between 2 & 2.50 was the best amount.

[Peggy]

Thanks guys. I will check the bottle for the concentration, but I'm thinking that the amount of Ace we were using (0.5-1 cc on a fairly large horse) was mostly having a placebo effect on the riders:lol:. Also explains why there wasn't a huge difference when I weaned him off the Ace. And I guess he really is a good guy.

[Fharoah]

I once showed a horse of 1/2cc of ace without my knowledge, it may have taken this gelding (not my horse) down a notch.