I need advice...when someone won't pay up!? (Long...sorry!)

[eventinghopeful]

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[Woodland]

Chalk it up to experience. If she asks you again have her pay her back bill plus a retainer.

[Milocalwinnings]

I'd let it go. I have a feeling that you won't be seeing the check no matter how much you persist, and IMO it's just not worth the frustration of trying to contact her.

I'm sorry that she didn't pay you though. I know that when in college, every little bit helps (I'll be there next year... yikes!)!

[shea'smom]

I would NOT let it go. I would email her again. I would mail her a bill every two weeks until my dieing breath.
I have had people do that to me. This is my business and I deserve the $$ people owe me. I NEVER let it go, even if I don't think I will ever be paid. They are at least going to be reminded that they were unethical, immoral and generally a jerk.

[Thomas_1]

I wouldn't suggest you let it go. Why should you subsidise this cheapskate's lifestyle ! You did a job. You should be paid for it. I wouldn't however have suggested that you go public on the fact she's a bad debtor. That's done now though so:

Send another one letter to her and recorded delivery or proof of posting and giving her one week to get the money to you. Tell her you want either cash or cleared funds within a week otherwise you'll have no alternative but to consider further action. Keep it polite but assertive.

Ensure you make mention of the email that she sent to you whereby she said the cheque was on it's way. (At law, that is in effect her accepting that payment is due and that she's going to pay it).

If she doesn't pay, then follow it through with a small claims application. Make sure you include all expenses you've incurred trying to obtain the money too.

[eventinghopeful]

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[Thomas_1]

As you become more involved in the equestrian world, you'll come to appreciate that this sort of behaviour isn't uncommon. For some reason in the horse world it seems to be not the exception. Seems to me that folks want the lifestyle and the appearance of all that goes with it but wants others to subsidise it for them.

You've a choice whether to allow folks take advantage of you or not. I won't and don't give folks permission to sucker and steal from me! At the end of the day that's what they're doing if they take goods or services and don't pay for them.

Indeed I was chatting on the phone yesterday evening to a friend who also has a equestrian centre and we were talking about this very thing...... We spent a good 30 minutes bitching about clients who don't pay up.... either bouncing cheques or trying to evade or avoid paying what they own. He was telling me about the nice new t/b x connemara sports horse he's just acquired after training it and because it's owner wouldn't provide a cheque that would clear! I've got 3 horses currently that all were resultant settlement of bad debt. (I hasten to add I NEVER take a horse as settlement unless it's a horse I'm interested in)

There's a lady operates not too far from me who owes money to nearly every single person who has anything to do with horses. She's 9 horses and to my certain knowledge ran up debt to different people for training, riding lessons, hay, tack, saddle repair, farriery, fencing, feed. All only got their money through the court. Again she was the subject of conversation yesterday because a young lady I've just employed did some riding out and bringing on of a young horse of hers and though promised payment is still waiting for it!!! Seems to me that this woman is just a low life thief! (Aforementioned lady drives a newish Landrover Discovery or a Mercedes!)

I had someone earlier this year renage on a debt to me and after I gave them chance to pay, I took out a court claim and in addition to my money got awarded all costs plus remedial loss for work she'd booked in advance. After the court judgement she came back with a letter asking if she could just pay the debt and not the extra !!!!! duhhhhh!!!!! As in NO WAY, YOU MISSED YOUR CHANCE!!

[jetsmom]

Offer to give her horse some free training again, and teach it to rear in hand. THEN give it back!!!!!:D:D:D:D:D

[eventinghopeful]

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[eventinghopeful]

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[Dazednconfused]

:lol: Good idea. The mare of her's is just awful to begin with. She's a ditzy, halter-bred Arabian who the owner thinks is just "the cutest, sweetest thing!". I beg to differ as I don't think that a horse scared (and will maul you to get away) of it's own shadow is nice OR cute.

Fortunately, it's not typical of most halter bred arabians to be that way ;) Sounds like a poorly bred, poorly trained critter either way.

[flypony74]

Welcome to my world. I just sent four people to collections for non-payment. I REPEATEDLY warned them that if it went to collections, that the collection agency will immediately tack their fee on top of the balance (and I have contracts on file for these folks, which clearly state that THEY are responsible for collections fees should it come to that...they SIGNED off on that!). Anyway, one client is having a meltdown over the fee....guess he didn't take me seriously in the first place. But he'll have to pay it or his credit will get nailed.

I try to be patient with people, and if they are making even the slightest effort to pay, I will work with them to the ends of the earth. Sometimes you go through a rough patch, and I'll do anything to help if I can. But if you lie to me, ignore my attempts to contact you, or try to bully me to get out of this agreed upon (in writing) expense, I WILL put the smack down on your your delinquent ass. I've got to pay my bills, and so do you.

(BTW....my business is in the equine industry, so this is horse-related)

[Thomas_1]

I try to be patient with people, and if they are making even the slightest effort to pay, I will work with them to the ends of the earth. Sometimes you go through a rough patch, and I'll do anything to help if I can. But if you lie to me, ignore my attempts to contact you, or try to bully me to get out of this agreed upon (in writing) expense, I WILL put the smack down on your your delinquent ass. I've got to pay my bills, and so do you. That is precisely my approach. Like you I've frequently negotiated an installment payment plan

But for a $30 bill..... I'd be "forget it..... just get it paid!"

I'm also thinking about advising the OP with regard to rates and training etc.

I don't know quite how you manage to train, clip, bath and plait a horse good enough for showing in just 2 hours. I also think that $30 for 2 hours work with a horse is too little. When its for work with an ill mannered and untrained horse then it's way too little!

[armandh]

otis is over the bridge many years past but on the wall was a glass front & locking BB, and pinned up was every bad check he ever got.

otis was not above a bit of sharp trading never misrepresenting a horse but if you did not know what to ask.....

[goeslikestink]

As you become more involved in the equestrian world, you'll come to appreciate that this sort of behaviour isn't uncommon. For some reason in the horse world it seems to be not the exception. Seems to me that folks want the lifestyle and the appearance of all that goes with it but wants others to subsidise it for them.

You've a choice whether to allow folks take advantage of you or not. I won't and don't give folks permission to sucker and steal from me! At the end of the day that's what they're doing if they take goods or services and don't pay for them.

Indeed I was chatting on the phone yesterday evening to a friend who also has a equestrian centre and we were talking about this very thing...... We spent a good 30 minutes bitching about clients who don't pay up.... either bouncing cheques or trying to evade or avoid paying what they own. He was telling me about the nice new t/b x connemara sports horse he's just acquired after training it and because it's owner wouldn't provide a cheque that would clear! I've got 3 horses currently that all were resultant settlement of bad debt. (I hasten to add I NEVER take a horse as settlement unless it's a horse I'm interested in)

There's a lady operates not too far from me who owes money to nearly every single person who has anything to do with horses. She's 9 horses and to my certain knowledge ran up debt to different people for training, riding lessons, hay, tack, saddle repair, farriery, fencing, feed. All only got their money through the court. Again she was the subject of conversation yesterday because a young lady I've just employed did some riding out and bringing on of a young horse of hers and though promised payment is still waiting for it!!! Seems to me that this woman is just a low life thief! (Aforementioned lady drives a newish Landrover Discovery or a Mercedes!)

I had someone earlier this year renage on a debt to me and after I gave them chance to pay, I took out a court claim and in addition to my money got awarded all costs plus remedial loss for work she'd booked in advance. After the court judgement she came back
with a letter asking if she could just pay the debt and not the extra !!!!! duhhhhh!!!!! As in NO WAY, YOU MISSED YOUR CHANCE!!


right on thomas- hence how i got a couple of my ponies, owners didnt pay me my rent money ,, i am not paying for something thats owed to me

you worked you did a job and you get paid for said job-- period
do as thomas 1 says and send the letter recorded so you know shes got it
ps if the lady cant handle her horses then she shouldnt have them sounds like you did more than needed to and odne a good job doing whatever you did and dont down yourself just becuase your a student making a living doing extra things to support yourself be proud of the fact that your in an educational system whereby your attemping to gain a better future for yourself doing whatever it is you doing haha be dead corny and ironic if you was going be either a vet or lawyer haha haha could add the charge of bad debt on her bill haha be lucky matey and learn from it , maybe have a wrriten contract which is better than a verbal one having half up front and rest when finished sorta thingy and always protect yourself by getting a rider only policy or somesort of insurance ok dokey

[StockyCrosses]

The person I sent my mare to for training took cash upfront, no exceptions. I have no problem with this, when she needed to be pulled from training due to a small injury, he gave me the rest of the cash back. But I do see how that could get the client screwed over.

There's just no anti-screw method of payment in the horse world, is there?

[lolita1]

$30.00 I'd forget about it however I think your rates are too cheap.

I'd be paying $50 - $70 for the inhand lesson, $50 braiding, extra for washing and clipping $70. Then show day probably $60.

All up the bill should be around $200.00.

[In The Gate]

I know the feeling :(. I did a huge favor for someone on this BB a few years back (drove 3+ hours to get something) and she never even paid me for the gas it cost me to do it. I had said I'd do it for just what it cost me, but she offered to pay me $200 for the trouble (which as a college student I didn't turn down!)

I did call her on it on this BB since the only ways I had to contact her was a phone number she wouldn't answer and was later disconnected, and here. Nothing ever came of it, and I did eventually give up because since she was on the other side of the county and I didn't even have an address it seemed like it would cost me a lot more than the $200 to go after her for it.

For $30... it's up to you whether to pursue it or not; but I have a feeling you'll never see the money and it will be a lot more frustration than it's worth trying to get it.

Lesson learned though; if you don't know someone well get payment in advance the first time!

Edited to add: The sad part is I'm a sucker and I probably would do it again if someone asked nicely enough!

[franksalter]

Why not post on the board that you know she frequents asking for advice on drawing up a contract for work that you do? You could mention that you have been burned in the past and that as a 20yr old college student you really need the money that you earn on the side and as much as you enjoy doing it you also know that you need to protect yourself from people who use your expertise and then do not pay. This would get the message to her and also give you advice going forward so it does not happen again.

[galwaybay]

It sounds as though this woman is definitely taking advantage of you and apparently has a history of taking advantage of others. She does because she for some reason gets away with it. Evidently it's an easy commute from her place to your place. I would email, check read receipt option and call her to ask that you be paid immediately. Give her the sob story that you are a poor college kid struggling to pay for school etc if she says she is changing banks let her know that most 7-11, post offices etc will provide money orders for a nominal fee, and of course you will accept cash. Let her know that you will be in her area on such and such date and will drop by to pick up money. If that doesn't work - I'm sure someone you know or your parents know have a lawyer friend or something who could help write you a nice letter demanding payment. She cannot do anything to you in regards to Harassment - it is not harassment when you call to collect a debt.

If that doesn't work - you might have to chalk it up to experience. Whatever you do, do not badmouth this person in a public forum where people could find out who she is - your $30 training fee could cost you a lot more.

[eventinghopeful]

None

[LegoMyMego]

I would have no patience for someone like that. If you have the e-mails as proof that she agreed to pay, here is what I would do:

Send her a letter certified mail, return receipt requested telling her the amount that is due and that unless you receive that amount in full by December 15, 2008, then you will be filing an action in small claims court and will be asking for the $30 she owes you plus court costs.

Her $30 bill could easily turn into $100 is she has to reimburse you for court costs.

And if she doesn't show up at the hearing, YOU WIN! You may never get your money, but that unpaid judgment will go on her record (as in credit report).

(Yes, I'm a paralegal..can you tell?!):lol:

[Rebe]

I sent a last e-mail today so we will see what happens! I realized she just moved so I don't have her new address to send a paper bill to her.

This is what I said:

******,

I just wanted to let you know I haven't received anything in the mail from you. You had said last week that it would be there by that weekend so I wanted to check up on that. I know that you feel you shouldn't pay me, but I did do a service for a vary low rate and you keep repeating that you will send something, but it never comes.

Thanks.

********

Is that polite enough? Too polite? LOL.

Way, way, way too polite. Here's what you need to send her:



I have not yet received the payment of $30 you agreed to for services rendered on Date 00, 2008. As indicated in the included e-mail sent to me from you on Date XX, 2008, you agreed to send a check, thereby indicating your understanding and agreement that this money is owed to me.

If I do not receive payment in full by December 15, 2008, I will file a claim in Small Claims Court for the amount owed, plus all filing and court costs.

I look forward to receiving your prompt payment.



Don't admit to anything that she thinks about whether or not she owes you - that just makes her think that she's winning. And don't worry about being polite - she's waaayyy past polite now.

[eventinghopeful]

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[lilblackhorse]

rebe's reply was much more professional than your email to her. Even at 20, you are going to need to grow a pair and step up and be VERY clear about payment.

The reply was concise--it states the date you performed the service and the dates of your other conversations. You need to learn to provide services only on a cash basis, or with a contract in writing from here on out.

Do not let this lady get the better of you. You had an oral contract with her, but you need to follow it up and be clear and stand your ground, even if it gets to small claims court.

You are going to have to have your ducks in a row however...do not be a namby pamby---stand tall, don't muck about and get what you are deserved for the work you've put in.

And learn from this too-

[sfstable]

Use REBE's reply -- yours was too polite.

Also, tack on interest for every 30 days the bill is over due.

[nextyear]

be careful about tacking things on bills that have not been agreed to,it of course depends on the contract laws in your state but if you do go to small claims you do not want things thrown out. Have a contract before doing work, even if it is small $$ always put in the contract what will be added to bill if it is overdue.

We have all been stiffed in this business, I did some training for a vets horse last winter and still have not been paid,and she complained about clients doing that to her, go figure.

[aspenlucas]

For me it depends how much you want it to bother you. For me if I didn't move on, it would eat at me. I leased a pony to a child one year $50 a month, and taught her weekly lessons. The agreement was I was to be paid, when the money didn't come we agreed to exchange for hay, which was fine with me. Well they ran out of hay and money, still owed me around $200. I asked many times for the additional hay the following year. Of course she moved onto someone else, suckering them out of money. I figured if I dwelled on it, it would just make me mad, so I moved on. But if anyone asks about Mr. and Mrs..XXXX I am sure to let them know that they owe me $XXX in back payment, and I won't do a thing for them either. She calls and asks for favors all the time. I politely say no, she knows why. For $30 I'd chalk it up as experience and ask for the money before or at the time I handled someone's animal for them. Horse people can be some of the nicest people you meet and some of the nastiest. Sorry you had to meet one of the later.

[eventinghopeful]

None

[JustJump]

For future reference:

If you don't already have one (and you surely should), create a waiver/release form that includes a place for a new client to fill out both legal residence and mailing address information. My waiver also (kill 2 birds with one stone) has a short paragraph about billing/payment; when it's ticked off and initialed separately according to the instructions, I have a legal basis to expect payment on or before the due dates of any bill rendered.

Always have a bill prepared in writing. This can be done easily and quickly if you have a pre-printed form that only requires you to describe the service, and the fee attatched to it, together with the person's name/address.

Try to organize payment in advance for whatever services you offer, if possible. I discount my rates for any service paid for in advance, and this usually does the trick.

Since you took none of these steps in advance, you are most likely out of luck. But it sounds like the amount isn't a killer. On principle, write out a bill, and hand it to the lady next time you meet her. Be pleasant, and say that you are sorry you didn't organize this in advance, "as is your usual practice, NOW." Then, let it go--there is little point becoming bitter over it.

If the whole episode sharpens up your business practices, you will be ahead of the game in an industry where the norm is fairly lax in this regard, except in the case of those who seem to be doing better than most others. You will find their billing practices to be fairly strict, with results to match.

[hoopoe]

agree with "Just Jump" if you do not have one in place, you need a waver form for people coming to the property and it is easy enough to print some with service and fees section

you cannot charge interest without prior disclosure

and i have found in the horse business "friends" usually are not, not in the true sense.

[Valentina_32926]

Chalk it up to experience. If she asks you again have her pay her back bill plus a retainer.

In Cash up front

(This will never happen but please let others know it on the sly.)

[Rebe]

If you don't mind, may I actually copy and paste this into an e-mail? Those are perfect words that I was too wimpy to say! :)

Please, please please use what I wrote!

Even if you don't plan to actually file in Small Claims Court, the threat may get results. Right now, there are no "teeth" to your requests for money, so she can ignore you. If there are consequences to not paying, it may cause her to cough up what she owes.

You've gotten lots of good advice on how to establish a more business-like presence - please use it all to good effect. And good luck!

[AnotherRound]

Is that polite enough? Too polite? LOL.

Yes, too polite. You can remember, also, don't try to project the other person's feelings for them ("I know you feel you shouldn't..."). You don't know what she feels, and you're giving her an out. You're acknowledging her excuse.

You will do well in life by only addressing your own needs and concerns in business dealings. don't let folks get you caught up in their dramas and bad manners.

"I agreed to perform a service for you and did so, after which you have lied to me numerous times about paying me. If you have not paid me the small fee I charged you - $30.00 - in either cash or a bank check withing seven days, I will pursue my legal options. Thanks you for your attention to this matter".

And yes, I would not accept a check, and I would tell her that you don't trust her check since she clearly is trying to get out of paying you.

That's me.

Hope a little of the above helps, anyway!

Good luck, you hve the right attitude, to try to learn to handle things better! You'll do great, keep asking questions!

[AnotherRound]

Hey, I didn't read Rebe, but she got it right fer sure!!

[Trevelyan96]

I'd pay her a visit at the barn when there are others around and very politely ask her, in front of witnesses, if she had your correct address, because the check she sent you 2 weeks ago never arrived!

[katarine]

Use the tougher verbage provided.

If that doesn't cut...I'd be at her barn wanting my money with printed, highlighted emails in hand.

I once 'stalked' a BM that owed me all of 49 bucks, purely on principle. Calls did nothing. Catching her at the barn with witnesses- did. I was polite, professional, and factual...."Ditzy, you owe me 49 dollars for my hours the week of April (whatever it was). You've promised it no less than 4 times, in voice mails and conversation over the last month. I'm not leaving here today without it.'.

She was mad and embarrassed but you know what?

I got paid :)