Tell me about EPSM Diets- More Specifics

[justathought]

Any information, suggestions of grain, oil etc

Thanks

The horse is a hard keeper and picky about food - what have you found are the most accepted
1. Grains
2. Oils
3. Forage choices

This is a horse that does not eat corn oil, and plays with grain - ...

Really could use some help here

[2boys]

There is a ton of information available, and there is great variation of opinions. I would check the site called: ruralheritage.com

[Dalemma]

Do a search on this forum and you will find lots of info.

Dalemma

[BornToRide]

Primarily feeding low NSC - No more than approx 13%. I do not believe in adding a bunch of fat to the diet, horses were not designed to eat that.

Although the body can utilize fat for energy, the preferred energy source for muscles is still glucose! Fat will only be utilized when absolutely necessary.

[justathought]

Bump - added more detail to the original post

[BornToRide]

If you horse is a hard keeper and picky eater suspect possible ulcers. Grains usually exacerbate this condition.

[LMH]

BTR how would you feed a diagnosed EPSM horse then?

Your post is confusing to me as it does not consider this true metabolic disorder?

[justathought]

OK - those of you whose horses are on an EPSM diet - I have read all the articles on Ruralheritage, I have also looked at the stuff from most of the vets that are online.... I know what the recommendations are, but I need some practical advice. My horse is a difficult, picky eater... I want to make the decisions that best allow him to accept this new diet...

SO... he doesn't like corn oil - want oil is he most likely to accept and how gradually should I add it to feed.

What feed/grain do your horses like best - we will be tranisitoning from Blue Seal Demand pellets (which may be ok to stay with at least in part) and Blue Seal sweet feed (which will eventually be removed). He does not eat much grain - he prefers Hay Stretcher (which I think is ok to stay) but he needs some grain to keep his weight.

I would really appreciate sharing your experience

[LMH]

I really don't think EPSM horses can have grain safely.

Will he not eat it mixed with alfalfa pellets?

Do you think he will need extra weight with all the calories from oil? If he doesn't like corn have you tried soy (veggie oil)? What about Uckele's Cocosoya?

Can you add more hay or alfalfa pellets for more calories for weight issues?

Also, there are some folks that can manage the horses using natural sources of fat (think whole foods) vs. straight oil. That may be more appealing for him to eat.

[BornToRide]

BTR how would you feed a diagnosed EPSM horse then?

Your post is confusing to me as it does not consider this true metabolic disorder?
I already posted that - low NSCs , maybe some sunflower seeds and minerals and vitamins as needed. I have one who will develop mild EPSM symptoms. He's done well on grass forage only with supplements as needed.

Ideally it is usually best to have the forage tested and then supplemented as needed.

Overall I tend to agree more with Dr. Valberg when it comes to EPSM, than I do with Dr. Valentine and from what i have seen , many owners , even with more severe EPSM horses, have not found adding a bunch of oil to be very helpful. Reducing the overall NSC content was a much better approach and logically simply makes more sense to me as well:

http://www.re-leve.com/documents/Muscledisorders-untyingtheknots.pdf
http://www.re-leve.com/documents/Feedingfattomanagemuscledisorders.pdf

[justathought]

If you horse is a hard keeper and picky eater suspect possible ulcers. Grains usually exacerbate this condition.

Yep - except he has been scoped and also had the tests of ulcers and there are none. In spite of this, he did a full course of treatment on Gastroguard and is on on Suceed.... so ulcers are unlikely - per vet and per treatment

Any other thoughts

[justathought]

I really don't think EPSM horses can have grain safely.

Will he not eat it mixed with alfalfa pellets?

Do you think he will need extra weight with all the calories from oil? If he doesn't like corn have you tried soy (veggie oil)? What about Uckele's Cocosoya?

Can you add more hay or alfalfa pellets for more calories for weight issues?

Also, there are some folks that can manage the horses using natural sources of fat (think whole foods) vs. straight oil. That may be more appealing for him to eat.

I am trying to figure a way to get the oil into him. He does not eat alfalfa hay. He does not eat alfalfa cubes well (nibbles but not enough to get oil in) We have not tried alfalfa pellets - anyone with experience with these?

[asterix]

have you tried sunflower seeds?
And the suggestion for cocosoya oil is a good one. I've had horses who hated corn oil slurp that stuff right up.
Canola also seems more palatable than corn.

[LMH]

I already posted that - low NSCs , maybe some sunflower seeds and minerals and vitamins as needed. I have one who will develop mild EPSM symptoms. He's done well on grass forage only with supplements as needed.

Ideally it is usually best to have the forage tested and then supplemented as needed.

Overall I tend to agree more with Dr. Valberg when it comes to EPSM, than I do with Dr. Valentine and from what i have seen , many owners , even with more severe EPSM horses, have not found adding a bunch of oil to be very helpful. Reducing the overall NSC content was a much better approach and logically simply makes more sense to me as well:

http://www.re-leve.com/documents/Muscledisorders-untyingtheknots.pdf
http://www.re-leve.com/documents/Feedingfattomanagemuscledisorders.pdf

She IS the muscle doctor, isn't she? My vet speaks very highly of her.

I did not realize she did not focus on the fat. If that is her protocol, then I would certainly consider it if I had an EPSM horse.

So, to the OP-certainly consider that option then maybe you will have solved your oil issue.

[BenNevis]

There is a flavored oil from Manna Pro that tastes like butterscotch that I have used as a portion of the oil my EPSM positive guy eats with great success, and he is a picky eater. You might want to google that.

BN

[justathought]

I already posted that - low NSCs , maybe some sunflower seeds and minerals and vitamins as needed. I have one who will develop mild EPSM symptoms. He's done well on grass forage only with supplements as needed.

Ideally it is usually best to have the forage tested and then supplemented as needed.

Overall I tend to agree more with Dr. Valberg when it comes to EPSM, than I do with Dr. Valentine and from what i have seen , many owners , even with more severe EPSM horses, have not found adding a bunch of oil to be very helpful. Reducing the overall NSC content was a much better approach and logically simply makes more sense to me as well:

http://www.re-leve.com/documents/Muscledisorders-untyingtheknots.pdf
http://www.re-leve.com/documents/Feedingfattomanagemuscledisorders.pdf

Thank you for the references. I have now read both carefully. I guess that I am confused but I do not see that Valberg and Valentine are that different except in the amount of oil/fat they suggest adding to the diet. Both suggest lowering the carb and sugar of the diet and the feeds both suggest are high protein, high fat, low carb low sugar. Both recommend increasing the fat - although the amounts they recommemd differ - Valberg says that some horses with EPSM can be managed without any added fat by changing and reducing grain - however my guy will need fat or grain to hold his weight.

So with this in mind any thoughts or suggestions

[vickienme]

EPSM horses like IR horses can't have carbs and sugar and starch.
My feed mix is safe for all. EPSM horses have an issue with uptake
of glucose in the muscles for energy so need high fat instead.
A digestive supp such as the two I use will improve absorption
of nutrients consumed up to 300%. That's 3 times normal healthy
absorption of feed stuffs.

MY FAVORITE SPECIAL FEED MIX:
I feed this mix once daily. If I have a horse that
needs supplements twice daily I'll hold out one dog food scoop (1qt)
full for next morning feeding.

Per Horse - 1 to 2 cups dry measured BP pellets without molasses,
Hydrate Beet Pulp with 1 to 2 qts hot water, (adjust as needed, fluffy not soppy)
1 ounce or so (up to 2 cups) apple cider vinegar,
from 1 teaspoon up to 3 Tablespoons garlic powder/granulated
per horse, 1/3 cup up to 2/3 cup whole flax seed per horse, 1/2 cup corn oil.

If your horse is not insulin resistant you can add 1 to 2 cups whole oats to the hydration mix and if an oldie you can also add some alfalfa pellets.

Mix into the hydrated mix when ready to feed, 1 cup stabilized rice bran (Satin Finish) per horse,
Prozyme with BG or Sr Prozyme with BG, ABC's Selenium/Vit E, (be sure to check with
your local county extension office to find out if your area is high or low in selenium)
We also have a natural Vit E supplement if your area/hay is high in selenium)
Humic Shale Ore.

Feed 2 to 4 dog food (1 qt) scoops per horse, in my case as much as needed to
help horse regain some wt if they lost alot. Very safe feed mix. Slow metabolizing
so is great in the winter too, keeps them satisfied and warm.

You can top dress with ABC PLUS and ABC HOOF for anyone needing extra.

I'm mixing for 9 to 11 horses usually.


So I'm guessing for one horse. About 2 qts hot water to 1 to 2 cups dry
Measured beet pulp per horse. 1 oz apple cider vinegar, up to
3 T garlic powder/granulated per horse. The garlic and applecider vinegar
will do wonders for their skin health and prevent fly sores, repels knats.

My mixing is in a 5 gal bucket. 2 gallons hot water with
About 1 1/2 to 2 inches in the bottom of 1 gallon jug of
Apple cider vinegar. In the other gallon I put 1 teaspoon per
Horse up to 3 Tablespoons per horse of the garlic and fill
With hot water and shake to dissolve. I use 3 T per horse
Year round of the garlic.

If you are just starting out, go with
1 Teaspoon and build up to 3 Tablespoons over a little time
Allowing the horse to get used to it. Mine love it. Smells
Like Doritos and they lick the buckets clean. You want
The beet pulp after hydrated to be fluffy and damp. Not
Soggy and fully hydrated. No little hard pieces preferably.
I just pour in some Corn Oil and stir it all around and put
the lid on and allow it to hydrate for 4 hours or more. I mix
this in the morning and feed at evening feeding and same some
for next morning when I have horses getting supplements
twice daily. During summer you can up the amt of garlic as needed
up to 3 Tablespoons daily to get your best results. Twice daily is
best during the summer as our bodies use up what we feed it
every 12 hours. During the winter, one time daily is enough and you
can reduce the amt to 1/2 the summer dose if you want to.

During the winter I feed more than I do in the summer, still
Mostly one time per day at dinner to keep them warm through
The nite and not cold or massively hungry in the morning.
I can easily feed as late as noon and not have anyone colicy
Or massively hungry and mad at me. During the summer the
Garlic and applecider vinegar really help with the insects and
I always give them their supplements daily anyway.

NOTE: Never feed this beet pulp dry. It plumps up fast and
Sticks in their throat and they choke. This requires
An ACE shot in the muscle from your vet to allow them
To relax their throat enough for it to go down. (I've
Done this 3 different times so "don't do it", they will
Eventually choke on it and get very distressed and anxious)

The Satin Finish bag says, two and 3 yr old 1# to 1 /2#'S per day
Mature horses based on 1000#'S - 2#'S heavy use down to 1#/day
Not in use horse. Extreme use cases endurance racing, eventing etc.
Custom programs available 1-800-742-3272 Satin Finsh Wilcott Farms, Inc.
P.O. Box 5, Willows, CA 95988

This will bring any horse up to speed condition wise and for an easy
keeper just feed 2 scoops daily of they hydrated mix.

I keep ABC Probi on hand for any gas colic
in the medicine cupboard, is liquid gold to me. I recommend using
a natural wormer rather than chemicals. Chemicals can really tax
an already taxed immune system and so can vaccines. I recommend
using nosodes for immunizing instead. I have access to ABC NOMS fed daily
to deter gut parasites, use the Parasite tonic to clean out any blood parasites. You can use an herbal wormer 5 days a month on the full moon
as the other option. These are just my recommendations,
alternative methods that have been working for me and mine.

[Scaredacoops]

My horse gets 2 lbs of alfalfa pellets, 1 1/2 lbs of Buckeye Ultimate Finish, 1 cup of canola oil and Accel Lifetime vitamin supplement (per feeding). He LOVES it! The Ultimate Finish is 25% fat, smells yummy, and you can feed up to 3 lbs per day for part of the needed fat. Purina makes a similar fat supplement called Amplify.

[Dalemma]

Sorry but oats have a very high sugar content and I would not feed them to an PSSM/EPSM horse. I believe oats are int the 30% range......the target rate for sugars is 10% or less.

Dalemma

[2boys]

My PSSM boy is reasonably picky, but will eat corn oil. I have switched him over to ground flax though, simply because of the research (albeit scattered) regarding omega 6 in corn oil possibly contributing to inflammation. Anyway, he gets 2 qts hay stretcher, 1 qt purina strategy, 1/2 cup ground flax meal (I buy it in the health food section of the grocery store), and vitaflex accel (it has vit e and selenium that these guys need).

[horsephotolady]

My EPSM mare loves the Cocasoya oil. It smells like butterscotch. I pour it over alfalfa pellets and add a vitamin/mineral supplement (Accel), and she snarfs it right up. You can get Cocasoya here: www.uckele.com

Good luck!

[Rayman421]

Geesh, if you don't want to spend 2 hrs making horse feed:

there are MANY feeds now designed for horses with PSSM, EPSM etc.

I had a mare with it that I showed for years, and she was fine on high fat pellets (8% fat) 14% protein mixed by the local mill (very similar to Strategy) I also could feed her oats = altho high in starch, the starch in oats is easily digested by horses - not so for barley or corn. Your horse may or may not tolerate oats.
I second the suggestion for Ultimate Finish, especially for the picky eater. If horse doesn't like alfalfa cubes, feed alfalfa hay. I always fed alfalfa with no problems.

Also supplemented with Vita E (5000 IU)

sometimes would feed MegaSel Vit E /Se liquid if under heavy stress.

My horse showed on this diet for years - and did fine. Went to a trainers- who switched her to "holistic" feed of corn, oats barley saying horses couldn't metabolize fat and the mare tied up (had an episode) within 2 weeks. She went back on the High fat pellets mixed 50/50 with oats, her alfalfa hay with some grass hay thrown in and her supplements and did fine.

Rice bran is another option for raising fat levels if your horse won't touch oil.

[Leather]

Omegatin is something that's been mentioned by Dr. Valentine on Rural Heritage.

I believe it's one of the few "feeds" that you don't have to add in any extra fat in order to get the right balance of fat/starch/fiber that she recommends.

http://www.omegatin.com/What-is-Omegatin-reg;.aspx