Help. About to throw in the towel...

[alteration81]

Ok, loooong history on this horse. I guess what I'll do is start with what I'm currently facing, then give you history to see if that ties in at all..
I LOVE my horse, first of all, but I have had some confidence issues in myself and him. Seriously, it's not that I'm neccessarily overmounted- I KNOW I'm a chicken, and I have a lot of things to work on. Multiple people have told me I need to just work it through and not sell him. Part of me thinks their right, I'd be taking the easy way out in selling him (IF I could do that in today's market).
Anyways, I moved halfway across the country a little over a year ago, didn't ride him much at all for close to a year. We did a few trail rides this spring and summer of 08. Then finally got a part-time working student position with a lovely trainer who seemed very effective and LOVED my horse. She says he's very honest to the work, and once I stop fiddling with his face and ride straight, he's correct. Starts swinging through his back and being very soft and consistant. I had to move, unfortunately, back home, to continue my search for a job. Before I left he started feeling uneven in the back, and she said she thought his sacrum was out. I didn't get him worked on before I left, thinking ok, no point in doing that when he's on a trailer for a LONG time..
Now we're back on the east coast, and I thought he looked great on the lunge. I lunged him a few times, just letting him settle in. It was a stressful trip. Today I finally went to get on him, knowing that I have to continue to work this horse and get him in shape, and not lose that fitness (I'll add the history on that later). Sooo I tack him up, which I haven't gotten on him or had the saddle in him for about 3 weeks. I go to lunge him. Trot seems fine, tracking up evenly both sides, maybe my imagination but possibly hip is higher on one side? I ask him to canter..which was no problem last week..and.... temper tantrum. HUGE extended trot to the point he's almost falling over, picked up the canter and bucks, not a single canter stride, humped back, ears pinned. Tried both directions with same result. Um, ok. I remove saddle. finally canters, after some effort, but hollow back head up in the air. Saddle back on, adjusted it 28 different ways before coming to the conclusion that I haven't a clue what's going on. Hopped on to see if i could feel it. Felt like I was riding downhill he was unloading hind end so much. definitely NOT happy, slightly uneven.
Ok, so now here comes the part that I'm sure I'm going to get flamed about. I have a friend who can tune into horses, and usually is pretty correct. She said I was making him sore, he feels like he has to push me out of the saddle, that makes his hind end sore, then he drags himself on his front end and that makes his front sore. ok WTF. I agree that yes, I am probably making him sore in some aspect. But we were making progress. I have to really exagerate turning my body to the right so I ride straight. very stiff to the right. My trainer had me stare at his butt to the right, and wouldn't you know, he went round at the canter.
So, this latest piece has me extremely frustrated, as I haven't the slightest clue what's going on, nor the money to pay for 5 different people to look at him and tell me what's going on. Could the sacrum be causing this kind of behavior?
History in the next post. I know this is long, but it has been one thing after another. I appreciate in advance someone who is willing to read this!!!!

[alteration81]

Ok, so I've only had this horse about 3 years.
First year, trail rode almost exclusively. He has had training up to 1st level.
2nd year we had BAD back problems, which actually had similar simptoms to what he exhibited today. It was attributed to saddle fit. He is very short backed, makes it hard to fit. I finally made it to Trumbull Mountain, they fitted a saddle to him, but he was out of shape at the time. I know I need it checked, but it was fine before I moved him- it can't suddenly, overnight, NOT fit him can it?
So then, with him being out of shape from that, I suspect we had a little bit of a stifle issue. One vet thought I was smoking something, another agreed that he was weak back there, thought he had EPM, but very slim chance.
Put him on a joint supplement, got bodyworker, saw improvement. Started to get in shape, felt GREAT after the new saddle (it took some time to get it).
Then we moved. (Poor horse, the craziness of my life affects his- but that's an alltogether different subject. I definitely was not intending on this when I bought him.) Due to not finding an arena, no trailer, and REALLY awful winter, no riding. Started riding again, good. Took him on a trailride/camping trip. AWFUL snot, threw huge tempertantrum, bucking spinning. Was FINE the day before riding in an arena. Took him straight up and down a steep hill until he settled. Second day, his left stifle and lower back were extremely painful. After rest he was fine.
Finally had access to an excellent lameness vet, he said no stifle problem, but the hocks were very weak positive. Also mentioned EPM, which is possible. At the time he was on Recovery EQ, which I thought didn't make any difference. Currently, he's not on it, which may be part of what's going on today???
I know he's out of shape, so am I, but I would like to get to the point where I can ride him everyday and not worry about him either a) being unsound or B)being a complete jack*ss. It is all quite possible he was throwing a temper tantrum today b/c he didn't want to work. I will not deny that at times he has my number.
I don't know what kind of input I'm looking for, but just pretty frustrated.:(

[little sue]

A couple things come to mind. First, call your vet. Second, Kissing spine? Third, Lyme Disease. Good luck. It's so hard to know what's wrong when they can't tell us. A friend had a horse that would take off when she got on,and I mean take off , it was pain related. A horse I ride would be lame in one leg one day and lame in another leg the next day and race over cavelletis, was Lyme. Sometimes bad behavior is just that,and sometimes it's pain related. I always check for pain issues first.

[egontoast]

I would not listen to the 'friend' but would consult your previous trainer or find a new trainer. Ask her for advice how to proceed and then proceed in an orderly fashion to rule things out.

It could be any number of things from saddle fit, chiro issues, soreness, attitude, 'has your number', freshness from not being ridden, anything. Perhaps the previous trainer was right when she saw a physical issue. No one here can know.

But if it were me, based on that history, if I had to guess I'd probably get a chiropractic assessment at this point before calling in a vet again. That's just a guess and not worth much to you.

[George Myers]

I was once advised - many many years ago - always to start with the most obvious thing first when assessing a 'problem' with a horse.

There is an old saying that 90% of horse health problems start with the locomotor system; 90% of that 90% are in the lower limb and 90% of that 90% are in the front limb.

Not always, but very often, these sort of muscular-skeletal problems start in the feet. Often enough for it to be sensible to discount that possibility before spending a lot of money on other therapies - these may be needed as well but if there's an imbalance in the hoof - that is throwing the hock, stifle and SI joint out, you need to get the imbalance sorted or it'll keep on getting worse.

Why not post some photographs or a link to a video? That way people would be better able to advise you.

[slc2]

I would not assume your horse had a 'temper tantrum' or 'the saddle was on incorrectly' or anything like that. The horse hasn't been getting worked and most likely, is just fresh. It's cold out and alll he's done is be moved around and not work. One man's 'temper tantrum' is another man's 'boy ain't he frisky'.

Stop guessing about your horse. Get a work up by a very good sport horse vet, a 'leg man' that the top sport riders go to in your area.

Stop listening to well meaning friends and riders who give you opinions like your horses back is 'out'.

Most likely your horse has some developing hock issues. One vet earlier said he was 'weakly positive' on some sort of hock test - I don't know what - flexion, xrays or what.

Stop guessing. Take the horse to a good vet.

Hock issues are not the end of the world. Some mild arthritic changes on the fronts of some hocks do stabiliize, and with careful conditioning and very gradual training, may go along performing well for some years. It's counter intuitive, but mild hock problems often respond the best to consistent work. Those long trail rides on deep footing, those spur of the moment gallops and once a month 'oh I feel like jumping today for an hour' may be impossible for a horse with hock issues, as may be twisting and tearing around leaping in a rough turnout or pasture, but some sensible ring work is not. Level, consistent ground without holes, ruts and soft spots, sensible riding - you'd be very surprised what can be done if one is clever.

I spent years riding with an old gal who could keep just about any horse comfortable - and the key was a careful, tailor made consistent work routine. She was just very smart about it. The horses got 'done up' (bandaged), they got bute every day (not all vets now agree that's good for all horses, but that's what people did back then), and she was just careful with them. The horses went out every day (no matter how cold it was, LOL) and got frequent light work, lots of walking and cantering to warm up. And they got worked very frequently - it kept them in good shape and that helps to spare the joints.

If the horse even has hock problems at all.

Just find out, and stop worrying that every time the horse bucks or plays up it must be due to some soundness issue. Find out what your horse has, how it DOES affect him, and develop a healthy, consistent program for him.

It sounds like you need a good trainer at your side to give you confidence that you're on the right track. Get help, and enjoy your riding.

[alteration81]

Thank you for all your advice. I think I have a plan- I am thinking I could try to work him for the next few days, see if he gets better. If not, give him a pain killer for 2-3 days (Banamine works for him, bute upsets his stomach), see if he gets better. If not, call a bodyworker.
Does that make sense?
I realize he could be just fresh, or silly, but knowing his history it really had me worried. Not to mention the idea of spending $ I don't have very much of right at the moment.. I also realize that I am probably needlessly worrying as I'm being a bit of a chicken.
As soon as I have a full-time job it will be easier.
I have had so many vets look at this horse, and they've not ever really helped. And not run of the mill, podunk country vets either.
Oh, and I also FINALLY got a good hoof trimmer. I did have issues having his feet balanced, but found excellent farriers recently. Made a lot of progress with his feet. He's been barefoot his entire life.

[angel]

Having a horse pins its ears on the lungeline is NOT normal behavior, cold weather or not. Sounds as if the horse is in pain somewhere. Have you tried putting him on Bute for five days, morning and night dose, then cut back to once a day for another five days. See if that makes a difference.

When you were lunging him, were you using sidereins? Was there anything different about the equipment today, from the last time you lunged him.

Until you get to the bottom of this, I would not ride this horse, nor allow anyone else to do so either.

[alteration81]

No sidereins, nothing different other than I put the saddle on.
Also, I should clarify that this is a VERY smart little pony. Part appaloosa. Whenever I bring up an issue with a few friends, they automatically assume it's his appy'tude. Maybe I'm a hypochondriac, I don't know.
Angel, thank you. I will play it by ear and see how he is on lunge line, if he's ok I'll get on him, if not I won't. I noticed the issue on the lunge line first.

[goeslikestink]

Ok, loooong history on this horse. I guess what I'll do is start with what I'm currently facing, then give you history to see if that ties in at all..
I LOVE my horse, first of all, but I have had some confidence issues in myself and him. Seriously, it's not that I'm neccessarily overmounted- I KNOW I'm a chicken, and I have a lot of things to work on. Multiple people have told me I need to just work it through and not sell him. Part of me thinks their right, I'd be taking the easy way out in selling him (IF I could do that in today's market).
Anyways, I moved halfway across the country a little over a year ago, didn't ride him much at all for close to a year. We did a few trail rides this spring and summer of 08. Then finally got a part-time working student position with a lovely trainer who seemed very effective and LOVED my horse. She says he's very honest to the work, and once I stop fiddling with his face and ride straight, he's correct.
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=176661

read this link for the above comment you made ok might help you a lot as you say your fiddling with his face which means hes advading you becuase of your hands and the way you use them ie heavy in the hands or hands set can make ahorse nap spook rear and buck and also hollow up

http://www.meredithmanor.com/features/articles/faith/fixing_bit_evasions.asp





Starts swinging through his back and being very soft and consistant. I had to move, unfortunately, back home, to continue my search for a job. Before I left he started feeling uneven in the back, and she said she thought his sacrum was out. I didn't get him worked on before I left, thinking ok, no point in doing that when he's on a trailer for a LONG time..
Now we're back on the east coast, and I thought he looked great on the lunge. I lunged him a few times, just letting him settle in. It was a stressful trip. Today I finally went to get on him, knowing that I have to continue to work this horse and get him in shape, and not lose that fitness (I'll add the history on that later). Sooo I tack him up, which I haven't gotten on him or had the saddle in him for about 3 weeks. I go to lunge him. Trot seems fine, tracking up evenly both sides, maybe my imagination but possibly hip is higher on one side? I ask him to canter..which was no problem last week..and.... temper tantrum. HUGE extended trot to the point he's almost falling over, picked up the canter and bucks, not a single canter stride, humped back, ears pinned. Tried both directions with same result. Um, ok. I remove saddle. finally canters, after some effort, but hollow back head up in the air. Saddle back on, adjusted it 28 different ways before coming to the conclusion that I haven't a clue what's going on. Hopped on to see if i could feel it. Felt like I was riding downhill he was unloading hind end so much. definitely NOT happy, slightly uneven.

when the riding isnt consistent with the horse then horses do get out of shape so therefore there saddles that one uses might not fit him no more so the horse might be uncomfortable
think of a youngster goes in and out and up and down so the saddle has to be altered accordly to fit the horse as he grows
it could be a simple thing of just haveing your saddle reflocked as it might be laying on his back more , ie after 3 years its way over due for flocking should be done at least once a year
and by mastecraftsmen of a saddle fitter, also in 3 years as you was younger when you got him you chnage ie your body changes and again a saddle fitter would and should fit the saddle to the horse and then to you so you both ride in comfort




Ok, so now here comes the part that I'm sure I'm going to get flamed about. I have a friend who can tune into horses, and usually is pretty correct. She said I was making him sore, he feels like he has to push me out of the saddle, that makes his hind end sore, then he drags himself on his front end and that makes his front sore. ok WTF.



shes means your position-- check your stirrup lenght is correct as this effects not only your position on the horse but also in your hands when riding the horse if you havent got the right lenght then sub conciously you would support and balance your own body weight though tthe reins see above link--




I agree that yes, I am probably making him sore in some aspect. But we were making progress. I have to really exagerate turning my body to the right so I ride straight. very stiff to the right. My trainer had me stare at his butt to the right, and wouldn't you know, he went round at the canter.

again rider error not horse error again lenght on stirrups is efecting your position so your uneven so there fore the horse is uneven ie stiff and becuase you doing what you
as in you know full well youdoing as you said so, then give as in you to the side your strongest on stop riding him how you write give on the right side of you then the horse will stop advading you and the horse in turn wont be stiff on one side
position hands and legs lenght

So, this latest piece has me extremely frustrated, as I haven't the slightest clue what's going on, nor the money to pay for 5 different people to look at him and tell me what's going on. Could the sacrum be causing this kind of behavior?
History in the next post. I know this is long, but it has been one thing after another. I appreciate in advance someone who is willing to read this!!!!

rider errrors

look here and find my link of how to correctly alter your stirrups to the correct lenght
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=168593&highlight=leaning+in+the+saddle


dont throw in the towel your is a common problem of which i will add links as to how common so dont be discouraged remember you have only had the horse 3 yrs when one rides it can give of a false illusion of a bad back or way of going you sorted the problem out originally by getting a new fitted saddle since then you have been on and off with riding letting others ride him or leaving him for yonks so the work hasnt been consistant your trianer the one that said he was honest was no doubt a fair rider and understood your horse and what made him tick and was helping you ie salddle etc
since then whilse off and not getting enough work no doubt you have been feeding him well
which can account for the sxclposive actions he has when you finally decide to get back on him as hes high on energy grass and grian and perhaps the type of horse he is makes for a hot horse
so lets start by calmimg things ddown a bit take him off all grain and just feed him hay as in ab lib hay for two weeks and turn out as normal
it takes up to 2 weeks for all grian to come out of his system yet it only takes days for it to enter the horses system
then work the horse and give him a proper exercise programme then slowly re intro duce the feed
litttle meals - if the horse needs more energy up the quoter if the horse is to much decrease the quoter trial and error by adding and taking away till you have a happy meduim you should only feed the horse by what you take out of a horse

[2boys]

You say that he was schooled up to 1st level before you got him. Did the previous owner see soundness issues? I would think that inquiring there (if not already done) would be a great place to look! Good luck. I dealt with an evasive lameness issue with a horse for FIVE years. It can be reeeeaaaalllllyyyyy frustrating.

[alteration81]

Thanks, gls, I read one of the coth links, where you explained stirrups. My stirrups are the right lenght, but I am going to check to see if htey are stretched the same.
Someone mentioned their pelvis being uneven, that makes me wonder if my sacrum or pelvis is out and making me crooked, in turn making him out of alignment...
He isn't on any grain though. He is a chubby pony type. Just hay cubes.

[Happy Feet]

my guess would be kissing spine.
Have you tried anything for stifles or hicks or SI?

[Perfect Pony]

What jumps out at me is all the starting and stopping of riding. I have no idea what you are expecting from this horse, but fitness is very important. You mentioned going trail riding after he wasn't in a lot of work, and your "punishment" was taking him up and down a steep hill, and then you were surprised he was sore the next day?? :confused:

IMO it's incredibly important to work on fitness first, then dressage training. I see so many horse with soundness and attitude problems that are the result of horse not being limber and fit enough to do the work they are being asked to do, especially in my current barn with many dressage queens who do nothing but lunge their horses and ride in circles.

Thing about it, would you go for a 10 minute walk a couple times a week, then try to run a marathon? Would you never stretch, then expect to be able to do the splits?

I highly recommend the book "classical schooling with the horse in mind". I am so happy I bought it off the recommendation on here, really eye opening.

[Viva]

We have an amazing, non-new-agey vet/chiropractor that would probably look at your horse go and then adjust his pelvis and maybe his stifles. Anytime we have a horse switching leads, bucking or otherwise being resistant in the canter, it's very often traced back to the stifles or sacro-iliac joint in the pelvis. One adjustment, two or three at the most (depending on severity of the problem), and the horse is back to happily cantering 10m circles and doing flying changes (I event my 10 yo TB mare at prelim and she's schooling 4th level dressage, to give you some perspective about where I'm coming from. When things aren't going well, she canters like Pepe Le Pew from Bugs Bunny...ka-doink, ka-doink, ka-doink...). Very often, hock issues are caused by a sore back (and vice versa)--one area hurts and the horse shifts weight to the other to compensate, thus creating more strain. If the chiro isn't enough, acupuncture is a good addition. Often we'll do chiro as a long-term solution and an acupuncture if we have to compete within the next week or two. I always go this route before trying any kind of injections to joints, which are much more invasive.
Long trailer rides and lack of work, both of which you've had to deal with lately, often are culprits.

[goeslikestink]

What jumps out at me is all the starting and stopping of riding. I have no idea what you are expecting from this horse, but fitness is very important. You mentioned going trail riding after he wasn't in a lot of work, and your "punishment" was taking him up and down a steep hill, and then you were surprised he was sore the next day?? :confused:

IMO it's incredibly important to work on fitness first, then dressage training. I see so many horse with soundness and attitude problems that are the result of horse not being limber and fit enough to do the work they are being asked to do, especially in my current barn with many dressage queens who do nothing but lunge their horses and ride in circles.

Thing about it, would you go for a 10 minute walk a couple times a week, then try to run a marathon? Would you never stretch, then expect to be able to do the splits?

I highly recommend the book "classical schooling with the horse in mind". I am so happy I bought it off the recommendation on here, really eye opening.

i agree with that to

horses that are fit and then left for here and there riding suffer you cant expect a horse to do what you want him to do if you havent kept up that consistency
which is what i have try to explain and as you have taken to vets and nothing been founded

then its down to work and how you ride him 1st post says it all

fiddling in the face-- its hands your hands can make a hrose do xyz if you hands set or heavy in the riens with a well schooled horse such as he was at 1st level this would be extemely hard on the horse as he would have such a soft mouth that he would advade and
tremdously in any which way he could as he isnt getting the right contact plus you
ride unevenly as you said

rider error- look a carpenter dont blame his tools as its his hands that did the job
so a horse rider shouldnt balme the horse for something they are doing worng
often the problem is rider error and not a health issue becuase like your friend said
it you who cuasing him to have the pain via your hands as your supporting your weight against him and balancing on the riens which is his mouth------ as in and on the bars of his mouth he has no option but to hollow buck and rear

listen to your horse

[alteration81]

I know that most of the problem is me. I also know that he is unfit at the moment. I HATE that the past year has been like this. But if he's in pain from something-if that is what it is- how do I get him in shape?? I can't afford to pay someone else to ride him!! That is why I was working with a trainer. as soon as possible, I do plan on finding someone else to help me. But for now, it's just me.
Right now, all I want to be able to do is get him fit. That is all the work that I was doing with the trainer before I moved. Simply getting him soft, round, and on the bit as consistantly as possible. lessons were very short. Some leg yielding, that was about as fancy as it got.
When I took him on that particular trail ride, he had been in work for about a month (obviously not long enough- but we were intending on a two hour trail ride- tops). When he was attempting to buck me off and bolt, my first reaction was to turn uphill-- and ride thru it.

So- as far as now goes, while I'm on my own- what is my next step? Try to see how tomorrow goes, painkillers?? Maybe I can find someone to give me a lunge lesson, if he's just being silly and not in pain?
I can also find pics if that would help. No video.
Perfect Pony- who's the author of the book you recommended?

[goeslikestink]

I know that most of the problem is me. I also know that he is unfit at the moment. I HATE that the past year has been like this. But if he's in pain from something-if that is what it is- how do I get him in shape?? I can't afford to pay someone else to ride him!! That is why I was working with a trainer. as soon as possible, I do plan on finding someone else to help me. But for now, it's just me.
Right now, all I want to be able to do is get him fit. That is all the work that I was doing with the trainer before I moved. Simply getting him soft, round, and on the bit as consistantly as possible. lessons were very short. Some leg yielding, that was about as fancy as it got.
When I took him on that particular trail ride, he had been in work for about a month (obviously not long enough- but we were intending on a two hour trail ride- tops). When he was attempting to buck me off and bolt, my first reaction was to turn uphill-- and ride thru it.

So- as far as now goes, while I'm on my own- what is my next step? Try to see how tomorrow goes, painkillers?? Maybe I can find someone to give me a lunge lesson, if he's just being silly and not in pain?
I can also find pics if that would help. No video.
Perfect Pony- who's the author of the book you recommended?

you can do it yourself if you read the link the 1st one--
then work to a programme of exercise i know and you know this is more you than the horse as you admit that so thats a good start you know you have problems as you know what they are but what didnt know is how they effect the horses way of going
so start by accepting that you have to change your attitude in how you ride him as this horse is 1st level and your a novice so you have to learn to ride between hand and leg working from an independant seat

do a small paln of work for him and build it up slowly to get him back into shape
starting with 1/2 15mins on each rein building up to an hour
start with simple things to get yuor balance by using the school to lenghtening and shorten his strides
look here and follow all relevent links and look and learn then flllow links by me as you will come to one that explains how to do the half halt stride
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=173434&highlight=leaning+in+the+saddle


if in doubt breath bring the horse back to walk and then count and starta gain dont just continue
stop ok take a deep breath and try again once th horse does what you ask of him end it on a good note dont keep trying to do the same thing
if you end on a good note-- A the horse can go to bed and sleep on and be te times better next time round
but more importantly you have acheived a small aim as in a small goal tiny step girly then they make staircase ok dokey

us the width of the school and use all walk sttrides with half halts master the walk then move up into trot then canter
roma wasnt built in a day and you really have got to get to know your horse better thans all it is

[Thomas_1]

Oh dear, oh dear.

Lots of things flashing through my mind reading this posting:

First and foremost I think that giving pain killers and continuing to ride is a REALLY bad idea. If the horse has an injury or something causing pain then you need to get the root cause diagnosed first and foremost and give the horse a rest from weight bearing work and perhaps any exercise (dependent on what might be diagnosed) and let him recover before you do anything with him. He's a history of back pain and a suggestion of hock problems and it may well be that's the reason. If it's strongly suspected then you need to get that sorted BEFORE you start working him.

I also think its a really bad idea just to keep riding him and see what happens. Do what you always do and you get what you always got.

Then you've said he's unfit and it sounds strongly possible that would contribute to either soreness or bad behaviour. So once you've ruled out saddle fit, pain and rider error, then you need to bring him on to full fitness nice and steady and with a progressive and varied programme. You can't get a horse fit by going on a 2 hour trail ride. Rather he needs to be fit to go on a 2 hour trail ride.

And there's plenty of ways to get a horse fit without riding him e.g. take him for a walk on long reins or if you can't do that, then on a lead rope.

However I'm wondering from things you said in your postings if this might be evasion due to rider. GLS also picked up some significant things you said. A photo or short video of you riding would better enable advice here and perhaps point you in the right direction for where to go next.

You might even want to get in touch with your old trainer who knows the horse, likes him, understands him and seems rides him well have a look at a video clip and see what she can suggest.

[InsideLeg2OutsideRein]

Firstly stop riding him. He's most likely in pain and masking it is not going to help. I would take him to a clinic and have a full work up done.
And I wouldn't necessarily put too much into the exact "diagosis" or "words from the horse's mouth" your friend gave you. I don't blame you for trying to interpret this at all (I have to admit, at one point I was at such a loss with my boy I hired an animal communicator, too, but it didn't help in pinpointing the issue).

I do sympathize though. I've been trough similar things with my horse for the past 6.5 years, and finally over the past two, making significant progress, but every day it's up to him to tell me how he's feeling that particular day and I adjust our routine accordingly. (That's why I'm usually leasing something else to advance my own riding...)


His back was the main culprit (along with stifle issues and arthritis in this fetlocks). Regular chiropractic work made a HUGE difference (and regular meant every 3 weeks for a few months, then every other month, and still on that schedule). But it all starts with proper diagnosis. And you'll set yourself and the horse up for failure if you don't start there.


The problem you have is that it's kinda hard to sell a horse a like that to anyone, so if you're commited to a "rest of his life" type realtionship, and you can not afford a proper diagnosis at this point you have the option of just taking it slow and not riding until you can -- or putting him out to pasture. If you're trying to sell him, you don't have a choice but to address his physical issues first.

Good luck!

[ideayoda]

If the rider is very crooked, the problem is likely there. Has the vet watched her ride? IF the horse is sounder/better the next day after going straight up a hill repeatedly (which makes more horses sore), is it unsound? Why use a bodyworker first, I dont get it. A good vet is in order to see if its all the rider. A horse can bodyposture (on the ground and undersaddle) if they are upset enough about the crooked seat and the rider which inflicts it. First the vet and second a good person which corrects equitational issues.

[Ambrey]

The fact that he was complaining about the saddle and better without it also stuck out to me. Just in addition to what everyone else is saying :) I'd have a professional out to check it for sure if I were you (as well as the vet, as ideayoda and everyone else have suggested).

[atr]

I know it's tempting to try and fix it yourself, but really, get a proper evaluation from a qualified vet, not a body worker.

Once you know what is wrong, you can treat it, rather than throwing time and money at an unknown problem.

[slc2]

There is no indication the horse was 'complaining about the saddle at all'. He may have been better without the saddle because he had less junk flapping around on his back. He may have simply been fresh. His behavior might have had nothing to do with anything except he's had little work. It may have nothing at all to do with the saddle or with any mild reaction to a flexion test he showed in the past.

It's a very, very old trick of breakers to get on a horse bareback as it is really the saddle that makes horses buck most of the time.

Too, the old trick at the riding school was to let the horses loose in the ring on a cold day, and chase them around the riding arena so the flapping stirrups would make them buck like mad and they'd be exhausted and act like little angels when all the weebles-wobble little kids got on them.

Horses ALWAYS act very different when the saddle is removed. That means nothing and it is not any reliable way to diagnose a horse's problems nor any grounds to assume there's an issue with the saddle - AT ALL.

[Ambrey]

Horses ALWAYS act very different when the saddle is removed. That means nothing and it is not any reliable way to diagnose a horse's problems nor any grounds to assume there's an issue with the saddle - AT ALL.

I suggested nothing of the sort. I said to CHECK the saddle fit in addition to the vet check.

Her horse wasn't acting different, he went from not wanting to canter to being almost normal when the saddle was removed (at least that's how I read her post). If that wouldn't make you check saddle fit, what would?

If the saddle checks out well, at least it's one thing to check off the list of possible causes of his soreness.

And neither of my horses acts weird when longed with a saddle on, so whether it is "normal" or not, it's not universal.

[alteration81]

Well I just went to see him today..I did not tack him up. I hand walked him for about 10 minutes. I lunged him, absolutely normal, fine. Picked up both leads. I also had someone else look at him, looked ok to her.

So- he either a)was extremely pissy yesterday- it was 10 degrees colder or b) it is a saddle issue- either it doesn't fit or is irritating something else.

I agree with a vet seeing him if this continues- but the matter is I am on a very short budget, and after having vets look at him before, and not finding anything at all, it makes me a little skeptical that they'd be able to find anything now- however, if maybe they see me ride- that might help???
I do now have the name of a vet/chiro. The one I liked moved away, but I just got good reviews for this person.
I also talked to someone, an endurance rider, who thinks maybe my saddle doesn't fit (even though a reputable saddle fitter fit it) and is too long for his back. He is VERY short backed, part arab. I do know that I need it checked- I bought it a year ago, and he has since gained a little more muscle, especially behind the shoulders. Unfortunately, there is NO ONE here that can do it. I'd probably end up sending out a wither tracing to someone, with the saddle?
I'm also wondering if I just jumped to conclusions yesterday and he was actually just being an idiot with the weather- but in my mind he would actually pick up the canter and run around- instead of throwing a hissy fit instead of cantering? Knowing this horse's history I think there IS something going on. I just don't know WHO will help me the most. Vets are slim pickin's around here. I'd like to try the vet/chiro I just heard about. Can lower back pain cause him to react like that to wearing the saddle?

[slc2]

"and after having vets look at him before, and not finding anything at all"

That all depends.

There may be nothing there TO find. Some people will try to convince you that every time the horse far**, he has something wrong with him. Every time he bucks, spooks, or turns his neck, something's the matter with him - something dire that's causing him PAIN, something very serious, not just 'something wrong', something really bad. EPM, EPSM are popular today. So is 'Lymes' (Lyme Disease). LOL.

Some people have an 'off eye' and just think every time they look at any horse that it's lame.

It's also ENTIRELY possible that a vet on a casual or visual examination finds nothing because that simply is not the way to diagnose lameness.

First of all, even all vets are not 'created equal' when it comes to diagnosing lameness and interpreting diagnostic material like ultrasounds, xrays and scints.

There are vets that are good with legs and lameness and there are vets that are most absolutely NOT good.

I would not be convinced in either direction if 'the vet did not find anything'. I would want to know which vet it was, and what s/he did to diagnose or not diagnose.

There are flexion tests, there are nerve blocks, there are xrays, ultrasounds - having the vet look at it and suggest what it might be, while cheap, is worthless. Absolutely worthless.

If it's a very average vet, s/he may not even be able to SEE uneven strides or lameness unless the horse is 3 legged lame. Not all vets are equally good.

I had a very good vet come to look at my horse when my regular guy was not available. After all exams such as flexions and watching him walk in the barn aisle were 'negative', I rode my horse and kept insisting I felt something. I had to ride the horse for 20 minutes before he was able to see it. I kept saying, 'now, there, i feel it, do you see it?' and it was VERY hard for him to see it. Finally when we did nerve blocks on the horse's leg, he finally could see a difference when the 2nd or 3rd nerve block improved the horse's gait, THEN he could see the difference. THis was a very, very mild lameness. By the time he saw it I was just about ready to poke myself in the eye with a sharp stick, it was very frustrating.

The condition that I was feeling, though it was extremely mild, was actually career ending in that case. An OCD between the two small pastern bones.

Much uneven striding is due to either incorrect riding and training or quite often, mild or just starting arthritis. Especially early on, mild arthritis may seem to come and go, may seem to get better and then worse and better...it might be hard to pin down and be sure about. For casual riding, a horse might go along for quite some time with mild arthritis, and the owner may not even be too concerned and justifiably so - with a vet's approval, of course - a mild program of gentle exercise may work out very well for that sort of horse.

[egontoast]

No one here can guess whether your horse has a physical issue or not or a saddle issue or not or an attitude issue or not. Sure it's free advice and you like that part but it's not going to solve your problem. People will always relate it to their own experience with a different horse and likely a different issue as slc has done.

You respected your previous trainer and she thought there was a physical issue. That's more credible than guesses on a bulletin board. Consult her, consult a new trainer, consult a vet/chiro. You don't want to spend any money but that's what you have to do if you want to solve the problem because it appears from your posts you can't solve this on your own.

[Pony Fixer]

I had a very good vet come to look at my horse when my regular guy was not available. After all exams such as flexions and watching him walk in the barn aisle were 'negative', I rode my horse and kept insisting I felt something. I had to ride the horse for 20 minutes before he was able to see it. I kept saying, 'now, there, i feel it, do you see it?' and it was VERY hard for him to see it. Finally when we did nerve blocks on the horse's leg, he finally could see a difference when the 2nd or 3rd nerve block improved the horse's gait, THEN he could see the difference. THis was a very, very mild lameness. By the time he saw it I was just about ready to poke myself in the eye with a sharp stick, it was very frustrating.

What a crock. First, if it's a mild lameness, there is no point in blocks. Second, if the issue was in the foot/ankle (b/w the "small pastern bones" whatever that is), you wouldn't need 3 blocks to numb it.

You have a personal story to illustrate EVERY point don't you?

[goeslikestink]

There is no indication the horse was 'complaining about the saddle at all'. He may have been better without the saddle because he had less junk flapping around on his back. He may have simply been fresh. His behavior might have had nothing to do with anything except he's had little work. It may have nothing at all to do with the saddle or with any mild reaction to a flexion test he showed in the past.

she probably needs the saddle adjusted as hes out of shape ie flocking as she had the same saddle for 3 yrs and long over due if its gone flat and laying on his back with added weight of a rider would hurt him as in pinch him - and he would buck



It's a very, very old trick of breakers to get on a horse bareback as it is really the saddle that makes horses buck most of the time.


seen as your a novice and dont break horses in this is both incorrect and contridictory
in the same sentence

since when does one break a horse in with a saddle just to get on it bareback, ?

one has a horse which is naked 1st then one applys aids to help domesticate it into accepting tack rider or trap
these aids start with you and your voice a halter then lunge lines way before a saddle goes on it 1st you have to catch the naked horse, you dont catch a horse or break a horse in all ready tack up for people

as for the comment on the saddle makes a horse buck-- ther are serveral reasons if not a health issue of pain of which i shall go through a few
1st is ill fitting saddle or ill fitting bridle or bit to include the brow band area and poll area as oftehn people will forget that a horses head grows just as much as his body does next is the teeth they are the most common
of why a horse bucks the next its the rider which as i stated earlier can be your own hands and how you ride on the reins to how you ride the horse in general mostly its common rider errors that make a horse buck nap or rear
another common fualt is when a horse has your no - and he uses his mind and strenght against you which is often by people that are nampy pamby baby talky to the horse and to many sweeties and no manners
lack of confidence, hestiations and doubts of the human all will make a horse a horse nap buck rear and spook as no clear and direct signal to the horse so in his mind its one of confusion - and confusion to a horse is a fer factor 1st is to flee th 2nd is to advade you
by bucking napping rearing spooking
and another is feed -- most dont feed to the weight and amount of work given,
in general most people are joe bloggs with neddies that ride here and there during the week or at week ends the horse isnt in full time work but they feed as if it is so often the horse has a lot of grub into him/her and then they are out on lush grass or they are fed then out or fed 2/3 times a day with little or no exercise till owners get down and - whame horse is hot hot hot and gassy gassy or the horse is fat and lazy which again if the horse dont wont to work as whats itslovely yummy grass and feeds then it will nap t go back to ---- ie buck rearr spook rhe hore is spooky as his brains are blown away with to much lovely grub



Too, the old trick at the riding school was to let the horses loose in the ring on a cold day, and chase them around the riding arena so the flapping stirrups would make them buck like mad and they'd be exhausted and act like little angels when all the weebles-wobble little kids got on them.

this isnt a trick but bad training and down right disrespectful to the horse and to the lessons that get on the horse afterwards as they are more likely to be in danger of comming off as the horse isnt and hasnt been trianed properly in accepting his riders


very shameful way of training a horse and brinks on the abuse of both the horse and its clients of the school
having stirrups down chasing horses around until they tire out isnt going to stop the horse
from flipping out with an unedcated rider in fact its its a situation where accidents will soon happen and those that train or teach are liable for any injuries to both horse and rider and those sort arnt insured and think they know what they doing when in truth they havent got a clue

and as you have related it to yourself then it speaks a thousand words as to what your background education is in the horse industry and how one might continue on how they trian there horses and start them off sd like in anything one only does by what one learns of how to


Horses ALWAYS act very different when the saddle is removed.

if the saddle fits well theres no diffrence to being on a horse to be off the horse and the horse will show no signs of discomfort either by being tack up or untacked
and if the horse has been trained well theres no differnce to him with a rider and saddle to one without




That means nothing and it is not any reliable way to diagnose a horse's problems nor any grounds to assume there's an issue with the saddle - AT ALL.


so your telling op that by your quotes of how horses re-act to the saddle shes got nothing to worry about
and its not realiable way to diagnose a horses problem nor any grounds to assume theres a n issue with tack going by your own expreinces

if like she said that she had a saddle fitted 3years ago the horse is out of shape and shes a littl older tahn three years ago then her body changed and so has her horses so the saddle wont fit no more - plus its over due for flocking if leather if synfectic she needs to buy a new saddle as you cant flock synfectic ones the same as you can leather ones hence why they are a lot cheaper or cheaper option as they dont last as long as a leather a saddle would leather if looked after last years as in years like 30 like mine but synfectic ones you might get 3/5 years if you lucky as they sag eventually and go sqaushy which if it has then as soon as you sit on the horse guess what the horse will buck

ill fitting tack- buck

its not just one thing but perhaps serveral things going on at the same time so eliminate one by one if no reason ie vets cant find anything and tack and teeh are ok then its the rider which as she fiddles with his face as in not keeping hands still and quiet
all of it will make ahorse buck nap or rear etc

[slc2]

Actually, pony fixer, the story was quite true, and the blocks were one after the other, at different heights, to determine what was bothering the horse and where it was. Three total blocks, I believe. I'm sure you're familiar with doing a series of blocks to determine where a lameness is coming from. In this case, it was the OCD between the two pastern bones, and the gait was not altered til the third block. My point was that not every vet can see every lameness, and some positive flexion some time ago may not exist any more or it could be worse by now.

Point also being that you do not know what's going on by guessing, asking people on a bulletin board, or asking your vet in passing what might possibly be bothering your horse. GET A VET - GET A WORKUP DONE - have a good trainer watch the horse move - find out what it is - design a program with the vet to keep the horse comfortable and be on the alert for any changes. It might be nothing at all, or something serious.

And no, I did not say tack NEVER bothers a horse. I said that it isn't necessarily the reason for EVERY buck or behavior of a horse. She said very clearly the horse was not in regular work.

Again, point being, a person saying 'my horse bucks' and someone saying, 'he must have lyme disease' or 'epsm' or whatever - people just do not know what is bothering a horse they don't know, can't see and have never seen the person ride. It could be anything or the horse could simply be frisky that day.

[goeslikestink]

There is no indication the horse was 'complaining about the saddle at all'. He may have been better without the saddle because he had less junk flapping around on his back. He may have simply been fresh. His behavior might have had nothing to do with anything except he's had little work. It may have nothing at all to do with the saddle or with any mild reaction to a flexion test he showed in the past.

she probably needs the saddle adjusted as hes out of shape ie flocking as she had the same saddle for 3 yrs and long over due if its gone flat and laying on his back with added weight of a rider would hurt him as in pinch him - and he would buck



It's a very, very old trick of breakers to get on a horse bareback as it is really the saddle that makes horses buck most of the time.


seen as your a novice and dont break horses in this is both in correct and contridictory
in the same sentence

since when does one break a horse in with a saddle just to get on it bareback, ?

one has a horse which is naked 1st then one applys aids to help domesticate it into accepting tack rider or trap
these aids start with you and your voice a halter then lunge lines way before a saddle goes on it 1st you have to catch the naked horse, you dont catch a horse or break a horse in all ready tack up for people

as for the comment on the saddle makes a horse buck-- ther are serval reason if not a health issue of pain
1st is ill fitting saddle or ill fitting bridle or bit next is the teeth they are the most common
of why a horse bucks the next its the rider which as i stated can be your own hands and how you ride on the reins to how you ride the horse in gerneral mostly its common rider errors that make a horse buck
the last is common fualt is when a horse has your no - and he uses his mind and strenght against you which often by people that are nampy pamby baby talky to the horse and to many sweeties and no manners
lack of confidence, hestiations and doubts of the human all will make a horse a horse nap buck rear and spook as no clear and direct signal to the horse so in his mind its one of confusion - and confusion to a horse is a fer factor 1st is to flee th 2nd is to advade you
by bucking napping rearing spooking



Too, the old trick at the riding school was to let the horses loose in the ring on a cold day, and chase them around the riding arena so the flapping stirrups would make them buck like mad and they'd be exhausted and act like little angels when all the weebles-wobble little kids got on them.

this isnt a trick but bad training and down right disrespectful to the horse and to the lesson that get on the horse afterwards as they are more likely to be in dnager of comming off as the horse isnt and hasnt been trianed properly in accepting his riders


very shameful way of training a horse abd brinks on the abuse of both the horse and its clients of the school
having stirrups down chasing horses around until they tire out isnt foing to stop the horse
from flipping out with an unedcated rider in fact its its a situation where accidents will soon happen and those that train or teach are liable for any injuries to both horse and rider and those sort arnt insured and think they know what they doing when in truth they havent got a clue

and as you have related it to yourself then it speaks a thousand words as to what your background education is in the horse industry


Horses ALWAYS act very different when the saddle is removed.

if the saddle fits well theres no diffrence to being on a horse to be off the horse and the horse will show no signs of discomfort either by being tack up or untacked
and if the horse has been trained well theres no differnce to him with a rider and saddle to one without




That means nothing and it is not any reliable way to diagnose a horse's problems nor any grounds to assume there's an issue with the saddle - AT ALL.


so your telling op that by your quotes of how horses re-act to the saddle shes got nothing to worry about
and its not realiable way to diagnose a horses problem nor any grounds to assume theres a n issue with tack

if like she said tha she had a saddle fitted 3years ago the horse is out of shape and shes a littl older tahn three years ago then her body changed and so has her horses so the saddle wont fit no more - plus its over due for flocking if leather if synfectic she needs to buy a new saddle as you cant flock synfectic ones the same as you can leather ones hence why they are a lot cheaper or cheaper option as they dont last as long as a leather a saddle would leather if looked after last years as in years like 30 like mine but synfectic ones you might get 3/5 years if you lucky as they sag eventually and go sqaushy which if it has then as soon as you sit on the horse guess what the horse will buck

ill fitting tack- buck

its not just one thing but perhaps serveral things going on at the same time so eliminate one by one if no reason ie vets cant find anything and tack and teeh are ok then its the rider which as she fiddles with his face as in not keeping hands still and quiet
all of it will make ahorse buck nap or rear etc

[pines4equines]

Can I say something? First cut yourself some slack. If you're out of a job, this all probably seems more like a mountain than a mole hill.

Why don't you give you and your horse a month off? If you're ready to throw in the towel, then back off. You sound frustrated. Go back to hand walking and grooming. No one says you have to ride every time and it's winter anyway.

And, you can massage those muscles around his sacrum and along where the cantle of the saddle sits. In fact, massage his entire back. Learn what you can do with some simple acupressure points. Look and see what massage techniques make your horse feel good, massage him, look at his lip and continue at what he likes. (My horse moves his lip when he likes it.) Also licking and chewing are a sign that you've released something in his back. None of this has to be done hard, just a light massage and you'll actually bond better with your horse.

I know this all sounds dumb and I'm sure I'll get flamed but if you've lost your job, then right now, concentrate on getting a new job, keeping up payments on his board and your essentials. As long as the horse is not colicking or bleeding from an open vein, just stay off him. For now, go to the barn and massage his muscles around the suspected area, groom him, hand walk him and go from there. Do some research on the internet/books about light massage.

I agree you do need a vet and a chiropractor. But if you're in jeopardy of not being able to pay board or something else, then just stay off him until you can afford these things.

[Valentina_32926]

I'd suggest deep tissue massage and a good chiro. If his hips are uneven a good chiro can straighten them out. Then SLOWLY start conditioning him - suggest a long walk (e.g. 20 minutes) asking him to go round at the walk then slowly increase to an hour then (2 weeks minimum) start adding some trot - all the time asking him to keep round and use his back end.

If he's sore the massage will alleviate it, if his out the chiro will be more effective from massage first and chiro will fix the out.

[Pony Fixer]

Actually...the story was quite true...I believe.

I'm quite sure this story happened, as have all the others. However, I am truly gobsmacked how all these could happen to one person. I don't think *I* have as many vet stories as you and I *am* a vet.

Apologies to the OP for the derailment. When friends/clients have wanted free advice (and they eventually do!) I usually tell them that a cheap way to determine pain vs. behavior is to give the horse some NSAIDS for a few days and see if said issue continues. It's not fool proof by any means, but it's cheap, as was this advice! ;)

[TXPiaffe]

Hopefully you can have your pony checked out. Chiro and Massage are great tools to use to keep your pony sound and going. I use them both on occasion, but also remember that Chiro's stay in business and keep your business by saying "one more visit..." Yes they can and do help horses I am not saying that at all. Have a GOOD workup done by a GOOD Equine vet and go from there.

One a side note... I have a VERY, VERY broke to death gelding that will on occasion pin his ears and buck on the lunge. Is he in pain, no, is he fresh and being naughty, yes. He will do it tacked or untacked and it is only occasional. I have untacked him and had him go "normal" and also had him buck and pin his ears untacked... Some horse pin their ears and buck, some don't. It doesn't neccisarily mean they are in pain. Just my 2 cents for what it's worth :D

Good luck!

[buck22]

Banamine works for him, bute upsets his stomach
sorry haven't read all the posts yet, but this caught my eye.

Your statement makes me think ulcers which can be very insidious, and have many different manifestations. My own horse suffered from ulcers despite not being fed grain and rarely traveling. He was irritable, hard to settle down, easy to get wound up, hypersensitive and easily upset to the point of being aggressive when being asked to work. He scared me quite a bit at times frankly. Ulcers were suggested, I tried a remedy for them and have had wonderful success so far, he has settled down and is much more pleasurable to be around and want to go to work.

[buck22]

Can I say something? First cut yourself some slack. If you're out of a job, this all probably seems more like a mountain than a mole hill.

Why don't you give you and your horse a month off? If you're ready to throw in the towel, then back off. You sound frustrated. Go back to hand walking and grooming. No one says you have to ride every time and it's winter anyway.

And, you can massage those muscles around his sacrum and along where the cantle of the saddle sits. In fact, massage his entire back. Learn what you can do with some simple acupressure points. Look and see what massage techniques make your horse feel good, massage him, look at his lip and continue at what he likes. (My horse moves his lip when he likes it.) Also licking and chewing are a sign that you've released something in his back. None of this has to be done hard, just a light massage and you'll actually bond better with your horse.

I know this all sounds dumb and I'm sure I'll get flamed but if you've lost your job, then right now, concentrate on getting a new job, keeping up payments on his board and your essentials. As long as the horse is not colicking or bleeding from an open vein, just stay off him. For now, go to the barn and massage his muscles around the suspected area, groom him, hand walk him and go from there. Do some research on the internet/books about light massage.

I agree you do need a vet and a chiropractor. But if you're in jeopardy of not being able to pay board or something else, then just stay off him until you can afford these things.

now I made it through all of it.. a lot of good advice has been passed around, but personally I agree with Pines... You're in a tight spot, wound up emotionally I'm sure after all of this and all of the moving, your horse isn't on the brink of death... so just go easy, make as much time as you can and enjoy your horse as much as you can, even if its just some quality hand walking time, etc. and don't stress too hard.

I agree too, maybe treat yourself to a good book or dvd on equine massage and give yourself an education over the winter. Take things easy and don't stress to hard or you really will want to throw in the towel, and then perhaps regret it down the road.

[alteration81]

Thank you so much everyone for all the good advice. I just needed to step back and look at the big picture- he seems ok, at least without the saddle, and I have time. I can be patient, wait until I find a job and then get help. I just need to remind myself of that. He's healthy, ok. I took him for a long hike today, he seemed to like it. And I do agree with good walking building muscle. I'll just take it easy and be patient. I may or may not try riding- but just at a walk as long as he seems comfortable. I also have an acupressure book I can play with again.
I also have some ideas for when I DO have the $ and access to good professionals.
Just wanted to thank everyone- I love this board b/c it is so educational, supportive- and sometimes needs to tell you things you may not like.
Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

[Sdhaurmsmom]

What jumps out at me is all the starting and stopping of riding. I have no idea what you are expecting from this horse, but fitness is very important. You mentioned going trail riding after he wasn't in a lot of work, and your "punishment" was taking him up and down a steep hill, and then you were surprised he was sore the next day?? :confused:


This made me go :confused: also. I think mentally and physically you owe it to the horse to ramp up to work gradually. In my experience, if I have to lay off riding for a period of time (due to my own vacation/circumstances, not horses' health issues) it usually takes me an equivalent period of time to ramp back up to the level of work we were at before the break. So if I'm off for a week, it might take me a week to ramp back up. Off two weeks, I expect to take two weeks to ramp back up. (I haven't taken any breaks longer than two weeks, so I don't know if this correlation continues as the breaks get longer.)

I never expect to just jump back on and resume as if there had been no interruption. Not only because the horse and myself have both likely slipped in conditioning, but because it takes a little time to re-establish (and perhaps, re-negotiate) the partnership agreement between me and the horse. This might be more important than the physical conditioning, for some horse/rider teams. I would expect it'd be important with an Appy or part-Appy (and I own one, so I know of what I speak.);)

ETA, I just read TXPiaffe's post, and my App will do this. Sometimes he just gets a wild hair. Most of the time he's known as the go-to guy in the barn for being sensible and reasonable. But every once in a great while, he just is nutso on the lunge line. The first time it happened my trainer was flabbergasted...she didn't think he had that in him.

[alteration81]

I already addressed this in a post:
Right now, all I want to be able to do is get him fit. That is all the work that I was doing with the trainer before I moved. Simply getting him soft, round, and on the bit as consistantly as possible. lessons were very short. Some leg yielding, that was about as fancy as it got.
When I took him on that particular trail ride, he had been in work for about a month (obviously not long enough- but we were intending on a two hour trail ride- tops). When he was attempting to buck me off and bolt, my first reaction was to turn uphill-- and ride thru it.


I obviously do not expect to be able to get on and go for a 2 hour trail ride after doing nothing.

[Sdhaurmsmom]

Hey, sorry Alt81. I was working with what info you gave, which was:

... Due to not finding an arena, no trailer, and REALLY awful winter, no riding.

So that made it sound like both he and you had been laid off for the whole winter...


Started riding again, good.

(You don't mention how long you'd been started again before the camping trip)

Took him on a trailride/camping trip. AWFUL snot, threw huge temper tantrum, bucking spinning. Was FINE the day before riding in an arena. Took him straight up and down a steep hill until he settled. Second day, his left stifle and lower back were extremely painful. After rest he was fine.


And here you admit:

I know he's out of shape, so am I,


So I was offering my two cents which, of course, might or might not be relevant/useful to you. You did post that you were about to throw in the towel and seemed like you were looking for input, not just venting.